LINCOLN AND OBAMA

[gen11]

"We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of Heaven. We have been preserved, these many years, in peace and prosperity. We have grown in numbers, wealth, and power, as no other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which preserved us in peace, and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us."
Abraham Lincoln, March 30, 1863





"This is no longer a Christian nation."
Barack Hussain Obama, some time back around 2008



What arrogance that any one man should think he could make such a decision for an entire people, most of whom are Christians -- a man, no less, who has had the affrontry to compare himself to Lincoln.



The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government's reckless fiscal policies. Increasing America 's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that, "the buck stops here.' Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."
~ Senator Barack H. Obama, March 2006

[Mulder]

March 9th, 2008 is when he said it.

[gen11]

March 9th, 2008 is when he said it.

Thank you for that, Okie.

[Gearbox]

America is in debt? Who paid for that robot on Mars then?:tongue:

[darkeyes]

America is in debt? Who paid for that robot on Mars then?:tongue:On the never never Gear babes...u reckon Mars is the real Neverneverland?:tongue:

[Gearbox]

Well Peter Pan said it was left of the Moon and straight ahead until Sunrise (or something like that). I bet Obama is desperate enough to send a robot there to get his hands on some fairy dust. That's the only thing that'll get them out of that hole now!:eek2:

EDIT: OK I googled it and apparently Peter Pan says it's "Second star to the right and straight on till morning.". Now this is why NASA won't employ me as ships navigator.:(

[darkeyes]

...thing 'bout getting things on tick is peeps dont haff get ticked off when the goods don't do what they r meant to and they end up not being able 2 afford the payments, no fairy dust and a bigger hole than they started out with.... :bigrin:

First panto I ever saw was Peter Pan... didnt haff like Tiger Lily in 'er buckskin dress.. she wos ver pretty... we took the kids 2 c Peter Pan cuppla years ago and Tiger Lily hadnt aged a bit but OMG!!!! She had developed one hang of a split in 'er dress and didn't haff show a lorra leg and thigh.... is obvious 2 me she too had run in2 difficulties with keepin' up with 'er store card and cudn't get ne more on the never never.. but at least she didn't haff look good on it an ver greatly improved....... so I reckon rather than consult alla these economic bibles they would be better just reading JM Barrie and find out how 2 make the best of a bad job!!!:eek2::tongue:

[tntom]

Hmmmm ... interesting twists.

Not familiar with the Lincoln quote. Did he identify the God he was referring to in his speech?

Obama's full quote is "we are no longer JUST a christian nation". The word JUST is important here.

Obama compared his own problems working with republicans and a divided congress to Lincoln's difficulties working with segregationists and sucessionists at the time of the US civil war. In reading Obama's statement it's clear he's comparing his difficulties to Lincoln's difficulties and not comparing himself to Lincoln.

[Realist]

Gear, the "Gumment" has a big credit card....you have an idea who pays the bill, don't you?

[æonpax]

"This is no longer a Christian nation."
Barack Hussain Obama, some time back around 2008

He's correct, the date is irrelevant. While most Americans say they are Christian, a growing number don't ACT like Christians and I daresay have totally perverted the Christian faith with their political, self-serving ideology.

Mind you, I am a liberal/progressive who does not support President Obama. I have twenty-four comprehensible reasons why I don't, starting with his refusal to prosecute George W. Bush on crimes against the Constitution and crimes against humanity.

However, as the Teapublican Party has become more under the grasp of the Evangelical Christians, their message has become more of intolerance, bigotry, injustice, fanaticism and many say, hatred. I want no part of any group like that.

All things being equal, better the evil you know than the evil you don't know; which Romney characterizes. My begrudging vote goes to Mr. Obama.

[darkeyes]

.. and listening to Ryan over the last few days... all I can say is turkeys, voting, Christmas (or is Thanksgiving more appropriate for the US?).. please yourselves...:)

[void()]

He's correct, the date is irrelevant. While most Americans say they are Christian, a growing number don't ACT like Christians and I daresay have totally perverted the Christian faith with their political, self-serving ideology.

Not Christian, followers of Enki/Ra/Hyperion/Helios/Sol Invictus/Mythra & Inana/Isis/Delphi/Diana/Aster. It's all the same magic, same mystery school. Call it Freemasonry, Illuminati, House of Stella Mutanis, Hermetical, Pythagorian ... all one, one all. Goes back to at least Egypt, probably on back to Sumeria and Babylon. I believe the tower in Ur, which fell relates the Babylon myth along with the deluge myth that saw Utu speak to Gilgamesh being copied as Noah surviving a deluge. Again, all one, one all.

And it makes sense, all three of the major Western religions, Islam, Christianity, Judaism all hail from Zoroaster, which teaches one all, all one. All one eternal fire, the Sun. They seek Unity via Uniformity and Unanimity, in essence everyone, all of us, would believe the same, be the same.

Sorry, I'll remain clear thanks.

[gen11]

aeonpax, I'm only curious here: I've heard the "Bush crimes against humanity and against the Constitution" before, but I've not seen any specifics. Could you please enumerate them, in legal or nearly-legal, very specific language, and cite (more or less) the provisions of international law to which the U.S. is party, and the Constitutional provisions, which are releveant?

[Paddarick69]

Obama drives a Lincoln? I'd have figured him as a Volvo man

[darkeyes]

aeonpax, I'm only curious here: I've heard the "Bush crimes against humanity and against the Constitution" before, but I've not seen any specifics. Could you please enumerate them, in legal or nearly-legal, very specific language, and cite (more or less) the provisions of international law to which the U.S. is party, and the Constitutional provisions, which are releveant?
Well.. there is this just to be going on with.... he is one of yours....;)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2003/nov/20/usa.iraq1

[Paddarick69]

news flash: only leaders of nations on the losing side of a war get prosecuted for violations of international law and crimes against humanity! just the way the world works...

[gen11]

I'm not the least bit interested in any source outside the United States -- even from an ally. I don't mess with your politics; I can't begin to understand them because I am not a citizen of your nation and am not part of your nation's political tradition. Therefore I won't even open the link you provide. If you can post a link from the United States in support of your allegations, I'll be most grateful and interested to see it -- if it is as specific as I have asked for.

[darkeyes]

I'm not the least bit interested in any source outside the United States -- even from an ally. I don't mess with your politics; I can't begin to understand them because I am not a citizen of your nation and am not part of your nation's political tradition. Therefore I won't even open the link you provide. If you can post a link from the United States in support of your allegations, I'll be most grateful and interested to see it -- if it is as specific as I have asked for.
So speaketh the mind of the closed heart and if I may suggest, the fool.... they are there by hundred if u care to do your own even very cursory search but you don't because u of your own arrogance and blinkered vision...

[gen11]

Ah, darkeyes, darkeyes. . . . . are you always a flaming bitch who attacks people you don't know, or only on special occasions? Up to this point, what did I write that was personally directed or offensive?

By your deeds I will know you, yes?

[æonpax]

aeonpax, I'm only curious here: I've heard the "Bush crimes against humanity and against the Constitution" before, but I've not seen any specifics. Could you please enumerate them, in legal or nearly-legal, very specific language, and cite (more or less) the provisions of international law to which the U.S. is party, and the Constitutional provisions, which are releveant?


http://www.google.com/

[darkeyes]

Ah, darkeyes, darkeyes. . . . . are you always a flaming bitch who attacks people you don't know, or only on special occasions? Up to this point, what did I write that was personally directed or offensive?

By your deeds I will know you, yes?
Nothing personal whatsoever.. should you wish to take offence and personally is your affair... the evidence exists and is not difficult to find.. it's your own affair whether you wish to seek it out or not, and whether you wish to have an open or a closed mind... indeed there is nane sae blind as thaim that canni see... and nane sae foolish as thaim that dinni want ti...

[Mulder]

Who determines which of us has a closed mind? Is there criteria to describe one with such a condition, or is that wholly the opinion of the one who is accusing?

[Paddarick69]

hey now gen11, you were inviting political acrimony and spirited reaction by making the original post... and quite what all that has to do with liking both pussy and cock I'm not sure but, uhhh, you know... so there it is :::walking away with regal indifference and royal wave a la the emperor in Amadeus:::

[darkeyes]

Who determines which of us has a closed mind? Is there criteria to describe one with such a condition, or is that wholly the opinion of the one who is accusing?
A strange thing to say from a guy with ur nick... to seek truth from wherever it is found and from whomsoever it is offered helps... that may be someone else's truth and one which we reject, but to ignore and close our mind to anything simply because of whence it came is at the very least arguable that it is indeed the act of a closed mind... the truth is out there after all..and often not difficult to find, whatever that truth may be...

[darkeyes]

hey now gen11, you were inviting political acrimony and spirited reaction by making the original post... and quite what all that has to do with liking both pussy and cock I'm not sure but, uhhh, you know... so there it is :::walking away with regal indifference and royal wave a la the emperor in Amadeus:::
ahhhh Mozart.. the divine....:bigrin:

[gen11]

All right, a challenge: Post on this thread SPECIFICS as to Bush's crimes against humanity and his violations of the US Constitution, IF you are a US Citizen.

Cite privisions of international treaties to which the United States is a party, or cite specific provisions of the United States Constitution the violated. Show me how the accusation and the treaty or Constitutional provision are connected.

IF I see any, I will consider them with an open mind.

If not, realize that your unsupported allegations have no more weight than a few molecules of air in space.

And by the way -- calling anyone a fool is rather personal.

[darkeyes]

All right, a challenge: Post on this thread SPECIFICS as to Bush's crimes against humanity and his violations of the US Constitution, IF you are a US Citizen.

Cite privisions of international treaties to which the United States is a party, or cite specific provisions of the United States Constitution the violated. Show me how the accusation and the treaty or Constitutional provision are connected.

IF I see any, I will consider them with an open mind.

If not, realize that your unsupported allegations have no more weight than a few molecules of air in space.

And by the way -- calling anyone a fool is rather personal.
History will judge... no doubt US history will differ from that of other countries and may judge him more leniently but thats how it goes... as such I have made no allegations.. but do I believe Bush to be a war criminal? Certainly.. as I do Blair.. and others involved... at the very least they both have a case to answer but until such times as they are brought before a court of law and convicted they are innocent men...

I cite nothing because I am no expert in international law,and certainly not on US law or its constitution... but others are. And it is not necessary for a nation to be a signatory to a treaty for it's leaders to be tried by an international court... only necessary not to lose a war... there are precedents...

..if there be criminal wrong doing by our leaders who have done wrong in our name we should not stand idly by and allow them free range... no matter our politics and no matter our personal opinion of the justice of a cause... Blair was the leader of my country's government, but he was also the leader of the party to which I belonged.. he.. together with other British government ministers of that same party, the one which I have supported, been active in and campaigned for and been a member of most of my adult life were in my opinion, culpable, guilty of deception and guilty of war crimes.. Truman said the buck stops here.. and it does.. political leaders are ultimately responsible and if they have done wrong or by their negligence or by turning a blind eye in our name they have to answer for it.. if need be in a court of law and if convicted pay the price... because they led our countries in a war, whether or not that war was justified, it does not exempt a country's leadership from adhering to law, national and international... even if that leader or leaders, as they were in my own case, were the leadership of our own party...

..so unlike you, I want justice to be done but also be seen to be done and I want to know that what was done in my name was done properly and in accord with the law of my own country and of the international community... there is sufficient evidence to at least cast doubt on that and if we fail to ensure that our leaderships acted with integrity and with honesty in accord with those laws and conventions, then we too can, with some justice, be considered war criminals, because we have done nothing whatsoever to properly ensure political and military propriety when there is so much doubt and so much evidence to the contrary, of those who took us into that war...

.So I offer you the same help as aeopax did earlier and offer you

http://www.google.com/

[æonpax]

All right, a challenge: Post on this thread SPECIFICS as to Bush's crimes against humanity and his violations of the US Constitution, IF you are a US Citizen.
Cite privisions of international treaties to which the United States is a party, or cite specific provisions of the United States Constitution the violated. Show me how the accusation and the treaty or Constitutional provision are connected.
IF I see any, I will consider them with an open mind.
If not, realize that your unsupported allegations have no more weight than a few molecules of air in space.
And by the way -- calling anyone a fool is rather personal.

Bushy fan, eh? While I could care less what you think about this retro issue, Bush and Cheney are criminals who deserve to be imprisoned. It takes a fool to know a fool.

There are two issues here with Bush, a) Crimes against the US Constitution which would involve the US Congress and Judicial system and b) Crimes against Humanity, which would involve the UN, The Hague and violations of treaties such as the “Geneva Convention. I’ll start with the former first.

1 – Here is a pdf version of “The Articles of Impeachment” presented to Congress on June 10, 2008, by Congressman Dennis Kucinich, along with co-sponsor Robert Wexler.
http://feralhouse.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/35_Articles_of_Impeachment.pdf

2 – A summary of the legal case for impeachment of President George W. Bush.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=The_case_for_impeachment_of_Presid ent_George_W._Bush

If you need any help, just shout.



http://i.imgur.com/IDxGl.jpg

[Paddarick69]

eh, this thread got turned from some bizarro thingamabob about Lincoln being godly and Obama being ungodly (right wing hyperbole) to Bush's culpability in war crimes (left wing hyperbole) and the constitutionality of his taking us to war in Iraq... I supported the war (for purely realpolitik reasons too nuanced for me to care to explain in this forum after a long day of work) but if you want to know FROM A U.S. CITIZEN (me) how Bush trashed the Constitution look no farther than: "[Congress shall have Power...] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"... Der Busher is only the latest example in a long line of Presidents to take a piss on a document I ADORE by taking this country to war without ANY FORMAL DECLARATION... congressional resolutions hold no more constitutional value than the tissue I used to wipe my ass an hour ago... and what made my stomach turn during the run-up to invasion is, had W asked for a formal declaration of war, HE WOULD HAVE GOT IT! WHAT? WAS THE PROCESS LAYED OUT IN THE CONSTITUTION TOO RIDICULOUS OR QUAINTLY ANACHRONISTIC??!!??

don't anybody kid themselves this ended with W... now we have another occupant of the white house blithely ordering the assassination of U.S. citizens without any due process (something even Bush 43 didn't have chutzpah to do), making no effort to get the insulting, tyrranical, and unconstitutional Patriot Act repealed (in fact he voted for its continuation during the five minutes he was a Senator), and let's ponder a moment how he is now requiring U.S. citizens to buy a product under penalty of law - something only a "constitutional law professor" could possibly read into that document... poor schlemiels like me and Thomas Jefferson are obviously too dumb to find nothing granting the federal government that kind of power in the Constitution...

I'm sick to death of the fucking grandstanding over cultural issues and disrespect to my intelligence and outright menace displayed by the right and the left of America as they both march us straight down a path NEVER ENVISIONED by the founders of this country... everyday the power of leviathan grows, everyday the space I can call MY OWN diminishes... FUCK FUCK FUCK and FUCK

NOW! CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO SAUCY DETAILS OF EACH OTHER'S SEX LIVES AND THE JOYS OF BEING FREAKY WEIRDOS WHO LIKE ANY KINDA PRIVATE PARTS THAT GET STUCK IN OUR FACES?????

so... there it is... :::walking away with regal indifference and royal wave a la the emperor in Amadeus:::

[gen11]

Paddarick, within that tirade are solid points of argument -- thank you. Yours is the first sign of registerable intelligence since the Volvo quip.

(Incidentally, though I'm sure it's not covered by the UN or any other sanctioning body, I think the outstanding "war crime" was us creating the conditions under which the most important museums of antiquity on earth were looted, and that idiot Rumsfeld ordering our troops to stand by and let it happen because it was "an internal matter.")

[æonpax]

A eh, this thread got turned from some bizarro thingamabob about Lincoln being godly and Obama being ungodly (right wing hyperbole) B to Bush's culpability in war crimes (left wing hyperbole) and the constitutionality of his taking us to war in Iraq... C I supported the war (for purely realpolitik reasons too nuanced for me to care to explain in this forum after a long day of work) but if you want to know FROM A U.S. CITIZEN (me) how Bush trashed the Constitution look no farther than: "[Congress shall have Power...] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;"... Der Busher is only the latest example in a long line of Presidents to take a piss on a document I ADORE by taking this country to war without ANY FORMAL DECLARATION... congressional resolutions hold no more constitutional value than the tissue I used to wipe my ass an hour ago... and what made my stomach turn during the run-up to invasion is, had W asked for a formal declaration of war, HE WOULD HAVE GOT IT! WHAT? WAS THE PROCESS LAYED OUT IN THE CONSTITUTION TOO RIDICULOUS OR QUAINTLY ANACHRONISTIC??!!??

D don't anybody kid themselves this ended with W... now we have another occupant of the white house blithely ordering the assassination of U.S. citizens without any due process (something even Bush 43 didn't have chutzpah to do), making no effort to get the insulting, tyrranical, and unconstitutional Patriot Act repealed (in fact he voted for its continuation during the five minutes he was a Senator), and let's ponder a moment how he is now requiring U.S. citizens to buy a product under penalty of law - something only a "constitutional law professor" could possibly read into that document... poor schlemiels like me and Thomas Jefferson are obviously too dumb to find nothing granting the federal government that kind of power in the Constitution...

E I'm sick to death of the fucking grandstanding over cultural issues and disrespect to my intelligence and outright menace displayed by the right and the left of America as they both march us straight down a path NEVER ENVISIONED by the founders of this country... everyday the power of leviathan grows, everyday the space I can call MY OWN diminishes... FUCK FUCK FUCK and FUCK

F NOW! CAN WE PLEASE GET BACK TO SAUCY DETAILS OF EACH OTHER'S SEX LIVES AND THE JOYS OF BEING FREAKY WEIRDOS WHO LIKE ANY KINDA PRIVATE PARTS THAT GET STUCK IN OUR FACES?????

so... there it is... :::walking away with regal indifference and royal wave a la the emperor in Amadeus:::


A - Welcome to bisexual.com forums. Home of trolls, hidden agendas, axes to grind and of course; The Whiners

B - Bush, Cheney and their Republican cartel have the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents on their hands. Unfortunately, Mr Obama refused to prosecute.

C - The invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11, which had clear cut goals, followed all the conditions of the Agustin-Aquinas "Just War Theory." The invasion of Iraq, did NOT.

D - I've heard Obama aptly described as Bush II. He took the evil Dubya did, and made it even worse. Civil liberties have taken a dive....aside from him being a corporate puppet. On the other hand, the teapublican war against women, gays, the poor, middle class, blacks and latino's, has attracted the dredges of the extreme religious right, which makes them equally as contemptible.

E - If you are talking about the corporate or plutocratic "leviathan", I agree.

F - Actually, 90% of all the threads here are directly related to sexual issues. I'm heavily involved in social issues.

[darkeyes]

A - Welcome to bisexual.com forums. Home of trolls, hidden agendas, axes to grind and of course; The Whiners

B - Bush, Cheney and their Republican cartel have the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents on their hands. Unfortunately, Mr Obama refused to prosecute.

C - The invasion of Afghanistan after 9/11, which had clear cut goals, followed all the conditions of the Agustin-Aquinas "Just War Theory." The invasion of Iraq, did NOT.

D - I've heard Obama aptly described as Bush II. He took the evil Dubya did, and made it even worse. Civil liberties have taken a dive....aside from him being a corporate puppet. On the other hand, the teapublican war against women, gays, the poor, middle class, blacks and latino's, has attracted the dredges of the extreme religious right, which makes them equally as contemptible.

E - If you are talking about the corporate or plutocratic "leviathan", I agree.

F - Actually, 90% of all the threads here are directly related to sexual issues. I'm heavily involved in social issues.The invasion of Iran did have a clear cut goal.. regime change..Bush and Blair can deny and have denied it but that was its primary objective, and as with Afghanistan, the powerful motive of vengeance for 9/11... against a regime which hated Al Qaeda at least as much if not more than that of the US and had bugger all to do with 9/11... and of course there was the little motive of the oil.... and Israel.... and Saudi...

[void()]

I'll trust memory over history. History is for those in control or seeking to be and can be altered. Memory lacks these qualities and oft affords us Truth. You don't control or alter such fires.

[darkeyes]

I'll trust memory over history. History is for those in control or seeking to be and can be altered. Memory lacks these qualities and oft affords us Truth. You don't control or alter such fires.
The trouble with memory is that ultimately it dies... or is coloured by time... it is also coloured by our own prejudice which is created by or because of what we perceive as the secret state and our view of the world... and as we die, our memory dims or changes, the writers of history who were not around or are hacks of the state can corrupt and twist what to us is a memory and so impose on generations to come "memories" because we are ultimately not around to challenge them... and even those who would defend our memories, not having been there will reappraise what we think we have seen, what we have told and what we believe and slant "memory" such as it is in ways which we may or may not recognise, but they can be but interpretations. So memory, either personal or folk is rarely if ever quite what it seems...

[gen11]

aeonpax, it has been Obama's stock-in-trade to blame everything on Bush -- for four years. You are using the same diversionary tactic. Talk to me about Obama, not Bush. (Why am I wasting calories even posting this one?)

[Paddarick69]

Afghanistan was the unwinnable war I knew from the get-go would lead us to the happy state of affairs we enjoy now... let's just hope we don't march out with only one surviving soldier the way the British did... Iraq (and all the civilizations that have preceded it in that dual river plain) has historically laid on its back like a kicked spaniel to any invading power... the just war theory is important but it's also important to take into account whether a war can actually be won before embarking on that course... in fact, Sun Tzu argues all wars are won and lost before they're even fought... and, MAN, if we went into Iraq to steal a shitload of free oil WHERE THE FUCK IS IT???? that sure would make my visit to the gas station more enjoyable

[Brian]

Let theocracy go and see the nation prosper.

The greatest, and most harmful, lie ever told is that we need to look to gods (telling and curiously: silent, invisible and evidenceless gods) to determine right from wrong. When that "Most Harmful Lie" is accepted, the part of the brain that practices thoughtful reasoning shuts down. Any evil is possible when you accept the foundational lesson of the story of Abraham and Isaac: Whatever a god says is by definition, good, not matter how evil reason proves it to be - as the muslims say, "islam", meaning submission.

Right and wrong can be determined (as best as is possible) the exact same way that you can determine (as best as is possible) the most scenic route from San Francisco to LA - through science based reason.

The United States (and Canada too, and many other western countries) has always been a bit of a paradox. It is a secular nation, but also one where the christian roots run deep. To argue mindlessly whether it IS or IS NOT a christian (or secular) nation is to miss the really interesting but very complex discussion about where to go from there. We can see that countries that embrace science more and more and let go of religion more and more are starting to move ahead of nations that cling to religion (or even revert back to forms of desperate fundamentalism).

Quality of Life measurements by nation: http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp Notice how the top of the list is heavy with countries that have moved beyond christianity/gods.

If Abraham Lincoln set the slaves free only because he thought that was his god's orders then he was an evil man (who just happened to do a good thing). Hopefully he set the slaves free because he practiced science-based thoughtful reasoning and determined that no man can truly be free in a nation that sanctions the enslavement of men.

Barack Obama is a christian - it is too bad. If he was an atheist he would probably be a better President - he might have found a way to undo the Bush Tax Rates on his previous attempts. Mitt Romney is a mormon - it is too bad. If he was an atheist he might be willing to pay his fair share of taxes, and would see the huge problem with paying a lower tax rate than the typical middle class American. Both men are hobbled by their belief in an invisible sky daddy who gives the orders.

- Drew :paw:

[void()]

The trouble with memory is that ultimately it dies... or is coloured by time... it is also coloured by our own prejudice which is created by or because of what we perceive as the secret state and our view of the world... and as we die, our memory dims or changes, the writers of history who were not around or are hacks of the state can corrupt and twist what to us is a memory and so impose on generations to come "memories" because we are ultimately not around to challenge them... and even those who would defend our memories, not having been there will reappraise what we think we have seen, what we have told and what we believe and slant "memory" such as it is in ways which we may or may not recognise, but they can be but interpretations. So memory, either personal or folk is rarely if ever quite what it seems...

Interesting points to consider, I agree. But you really can't trust recorded history either as that is left as spoil for victors. If we pass on oral tales of our memories it gives us safety in numbers, especially if you guide someone to what you see, they see the same or similar enough to corroborate.

This something I saw whilst watching X-files. One of the characters was a Navajo and said history is for those needing control, dangerous folks. He preferred memory over history, would spread memory by telling others, at least twenty or so. I guess in some ways fictions tell truths as well as outright flights of fantasy.

One must be mindful of balance.

[Paddarick69]

there have even been nations that have officially banned God and based all decisions on scientific reasoning with the happiest of results! The Soviet Union comes quickly to mind!

to use the vernacular of our times: I'm just sayin'! :D

[æonpax]

The invasion of Iran did have a clear cut goal.. regime change..Bush and Blair can deny and have denied it but that was its primary objective, and as with Afghanistan, the powerful motive of vengeance for 9/11... against a regime which hated Al Qaeda at least as much if not more than that of the US and had bugger all to do with 9/11... and of course there was the little motive of the oil.... and Israel.... and Saudi...

`
1) I should have been more clear, my apologies. I mean “clear-cut” in reference to the Just War Theory, to wit;

Just War Theory - http://www.iep.utm.edu/justwar/


2) The "real" reason Bush and his cartel wanted to invade Iraq is still being debated. Some say;


for oil (which sounds most likely)

to finish his daddies job,
to silence him becuase he was a CIA/US tool since 1958 and knew too much.



All I know is that he lied to the American public. No WMD's, no Al-Queda connections and this crap they shoveled about freeing the people of Iraq is a laugh.

[æonpax]

aeonpax, it has been Obama's stock-in-trade to blame everything on Bush -- for four years. You are using the same diversionary tactic. Talk to me about Obama, not Bush. (Why am I wasting calories even posting this one?)

I'm well aware of the right's now cliche "Blame Bush" derangement. (promoted by the obscenity of a Limbaugh) If the shoe fits, wear it. If Bush is factually responsible, then he is..period. Obama has little or nothing to do with Bush's mistakes.

However, while the economic collapse happened during his watch, he cannot be solely blamed for it. That came about slowly, after three decades of neglect under various presidents.

Save your calories and electrons next time and just say nothing. Problem solved.

[Paddarick69]

finish Daddy's uncompleted mess is THE reason... in fact W's whole venture into politics was an exercise in reclaiming daddy's entitlement to power... throw in the fact it's hard to call yourself a hegemonic superpower if ya can't topple some two-bit, asshole dictator like Saddam Hussein and you pretty much have your raison de guerre... it would have been refreshing to hear it sold as such instead of the smokescreen Bushie laid down... WMD's actually had some validity, too - I remember even Noam Chomsky a few weeks after the war started finding it VERY hard to believe WMDs wouldn't be found eventually

the oil stuff is hogwash... it ignores the unrelenting hostility on the part of the oil companies to our decade of sanctions against Hussein's regime... Saddam was the best bet to deliver the oil safely and predictably and that's all they care about, they were all seeking ways around those sanctions... also, peruse the latest data on who is doing business with Iraq and buying their oil... The U.S. is WAY down on the list

[æonpax]

Interesting points to consider, I agree. But you really can't trust recorded history either as that is left as spoil for victors. If we pass on oral tales of our memories it gives us safety in numbers, especially if you guide someone to what you see, they see the same or similar enough to corroborate.

This something I saw whilst watching X-files. One of the characters was a Navajo and said history is for those needing control, dangerous folks. He preferred memory over history, would spread memory by telling others, at least twenty or so. I guess in some ways fictions tell truths as well as outright flights of fantasy.

One must be mindful of balance.
`
Isn't there an axiom that states "history is written by the victorious?" You do present a good dilemma though, which is more accurate; recorded history or verbal history. You are correct. The Native Americans had no written language yet were able to preserve their beliefs and culture for centuries by use of of rituals, customs and word of mouth. However, there is no way of telling what really happened from myth and embellishment.

A good lesson of the destructive power of verbal history happened in the Balkans. When the central authority of the Yugoslavian government deteriorated after Tito died, the Christians and Muslims resurrected old animosities that dated back some 500 years, When the Moors controlled the region. The resulting slaughtering was a result of verbal history.

"Balance" you say. Are you familiar with the Hopi Indian word; Koyaanisqatsi?

[darkeyes]

`
Isn't there an axiom that states "history is written by the victorious?" You do present a good dilemma though, which is more accurate; recorded history or verbal history. You are correct. The Native Americans had no written language yet were able to preserve their beliefs and culture for centuries by use of of rituals, customs and word of mouth. However, there is no way of telling what really happened from myth and embellishment.

A good lesson of the destructive power of verbal history happened in the Balkans. When the central authority of the Yugoslavian government deteriorated after Tito died, the Christians and Muslims resurrected old animosities that dated back some 500 years, When the Moors controlled the region. The resulting slaughtering was a result of verbal history.

"Balance" you say. Are you familiar with the Hopi Indian word; Koyaanisqatsi?

The Ottomans not the Moor's... but you are right.. folk memory itself changes, as from generation to generation subtle and not so subtle changes are made by accident or design in what the observors and participants in that folk history saw and/or experienced... time changes what was to what it was thought to be and the reality is that all or most truth is often lost... the ancient Celtic Druids had to learn their music and histories it is believed word for word verbatim to prevent such distortion through a long apprenticeship.. yet even this has dangers because it originates from an ancient folk memory real or imagined which may or may not be true... and no one can tell just what thoughout ancient Celtic and Druid history how those Druid elders and even less senior druids may for their own reasons, have changed what succeeding generations of druids learned and told....

...in the Celtic world Druids were the font of all wisdom, ,of all knowledge and each tribe had its own druid to relate those histories and the moralities they may have contained and largely determined the direction of a tribe.. the Romans recognised this and that is why they exterminated Druidry and destroyed the great Druid place of learning on Ynys Mon which in English we know as Anglesey on the North western tip of Wales.......

Nothing of what we know is certain, how often even within our family have we argued with our siblings, parents and children, even friends and workmates, versions of events we all witnessed? So is folk memory created...or memories to be more precise...

Nothing is certain... either recorded history or folk memory.

[gen11]

And by the way, did Kennedy or Johnson ever get around to declaring war on North Vietnam?

And has not Al Qaeda formally declared war on the United States multiple times?

[Paddarick69]

gen, 'no' on question one and 'yes' on question 2... al qaeda, what a bunch of losers... the same forces that brought us Helen Gurley Brown and this website and cheap tennis rackets made in Vietnam are relentlessly grinding away at their juvenile vision of an islamic world separated from the rest of humanity... and the beat goes on...

[IanBorthwick]

Ok, to the OP, you sadly FUCKING fail at political Trolling. I'm sick of the Reich Wingnuts coming here and talking smack without looking things up AT LEAST ONCE without being tied to Rush, Beck or FauX News for your views.

http://www.factcheck.org/2008/08/obama-and-the-christian-nation-quote/

What he said was:

He said,"We are no longer "just" a Christian nation, but a nation of many other faiths as well."

[chicagom]

46 wasted replies........and one wasted initial post.....thanks Ian

[darkeyes]

Hmmmm ... interesting twists.

Not familiar with the Lincoln quote. Did he identify the God he was referring to in his speech?

Obama's full quote is "we are no longer JUST a christian nation". The word JUST is important here.

Obama compared his own problems working with republicans and a divided congress to Lincoln's difficulties working with segregationists and sucessionists at the time of the US civil war. In reading Obama's statement it's clear he's comparing his difficulties to Lincoln's difficulties and not comparing himself to Lincoln.
Actually Chica babes..the above is #8

..but ur right and you're wrong.. it strayed from the original question a lot so in a sense it was a waste...but a real a waste is if nothing is learned... doesn't matter if the subject is strayed from... and there are interesting and valuable little snippets I have learned.. doesn't matter is if no one else has taken owt from the discussion... but it's there for them if they are prepared to see it...:bigrin: and trust me.. some have a lot more to learn than others....including the OP

[Paddarick69]

ya down wit OPP?! Yeah you know me!

snort... me in goofy mood, had a nice day :)

[gen11]

All y'all left-wing lunatics, and most of you more moderate folk how have shown some thought and registerable intelligence, have missed the point of my original post. It wasn't about politics; it was about arrogance. That one man -- any one man -- would tell a people what they are or ar not, contrary to two-and-a-half centuries of history, is colossally arrogant. Suppose Egypt's new president made the statement "This is no longer a Muslim [or "mostly Muslim"] country--"

My personal opinion is that the Muslim socialist George Soros puppet foreigner should be kicked out of office for no more than his crotch salutes to the American flag, but that's a separate issue and admittedly personal.

Oh -- and, come to think of it, he is a fit subject for this site, have been apparently actively bisexual in his younger years.

[gen11]

For you research buffs, find out about Coward and Piven and their work. Hint: They are professors at Columbia University. They are quite relevant to where y'all have dragged this thread.

[darkeyes]

For you research buffs, find out about Coward and Piven and their work. Hint: They are professors at Columbia University. They are quite relevant to where y'all have dragged this thread.
Cheeky sod.. considering what you've said on this thread..

[gen11]

"Cheeky sod"? My -- from a Scottish anarchist . . . intesting perspective on personal importance . . .

[darkeyes]

All y'all left-wing lunatics, and most of you more moderate folk how have shown some thought and registerable intelligence, have missed the point of my original post. It wasn't about politics; it was about arrogance. That one man -- any one man -- would tell a people what they are or ar not, contrary to two-and-a-half centuries of history, is colossally arrogant. Suppose Egypt's new president made the statement "This is no longer a Muslim [or "mostly Muslim"] country--"

My personal opinion is that the Muslim socialist George Soros puppet foreigner should be kicked out of office for no more than his crotch salutes to the American flag, but that's a separate issue and admittedly personal.

Oh -- and, come to think of it, he is a fit subject for this site, have been apparently actively bisexual in his younger years.
Such bellywarch.. I do hope it isn't too painful all that bile and churnytum... something u ate?:bigrin: Nursie Fran would giveya summat for it butya dont like owt from we nasty foreigners.. do look cute in the gear tho... me partner likes it wen we play games after kids r in bed.... but Nursie Fran isn't an anarchist btw...tho in time it will be, I hope, how human beings live...but not yet... have moren 1ce been called the antichrist (me Gran, ver religious Catholic lady but not ver nice person, was forever accusing me of it.. Satan Spawn.. 'er fave nick for urs truly) .. searched me body for weeks an couldn't find that number ne wer...... so modesty and reality forbid me claiming 2 b that..

...ne ways.. fyi am very fond of Christ... wise man.. wouldn't like to upset him too much and live me life pretty much by the rules he is sposed to have set down.. not all.. most...don't think he was God come 2 earth or owt daft like that but I do admire him... can't say for certain but am quite sure if even haff of wot we know of 'im is true... he would take a ver dim view of u and those who think like u..... if think is a proper description for wot goes on in 'tween ur collective ears...

[gen11]

Here follows the only appropriate response:

[darkeyes]

*laffs* o Gen babes.. u r priceless..... if peeps like u didn't exist we wud havta invent ya..:cutelaugh

[chicagom]

Hopefully the perfect way to end this silliness. Thanks Fran.

[void()]

Are you familiar with the Hopi Indian word; Koyaanisqatsi?


A state life calling for another way of living. Yes, I used to read a fellow called Desert Rat's site. Koyaanisqatsi (http://ratical.org/rat_haus.html)was his signature.

[shewolf50]

Hmmmm ... interesting twists.

Not familiar with the Lincoln quote. Did he identify the God he was referring to in his speech?

Obama's full quote is "we are no longer JUST a christian nation". The word JUST is important here.

Obama compared his own problems working with republicans and a divided congress to Lincoln's difficulties working with segregationists and sucessionists at the time of the US civil war. In reading Obama's statement it's clear he's comparing his difficulties to Lincoln's difficulties and not comparing himself to Lincoln.




Thank you, I was just thinking about how I was going to word this when you took the words rite out of my mouth!!!

[Paddarick69]

I recognized right away from the first posts I saw by you, Dark, you're someone who loves :) it doesn't surprise me you say you love Christ (oy, being pious or preachy is SOOO not me!)... that Jesus dude people like your grandma forget, the one who cavorted with the supposedly reprobate... and spoke of a love that fills one's heart... shhhhhhh (looking around furtively worried about being seen) I even believe in his divinity and even believe you have the right not to and can actually be lovable!... BUT... that is a subject way off topic to this website! hah! you're good people, kiddo

meh. so much to respond to in people's follow up posts... the plutocratic/corporate leviathan... ya better believe it exists! the governmental leviathan is its partner, in total lockstep, giving it cover and ensuring its existence... every movement from the bottom up demanding some punishment or control of the corporate leviathan by the governmental leviathan only ends up being co-opted by the former, being used to crowd out competition, making its position of supremacy more and more permanent... every time some politician speaks the rhetoric of populism and promises THIS TIME we're gonna get those guys, those fat cats are gonna finally howl in pain, THIS law is gonna finally ensure fairness, THIS tax rate is gonna make a just society, the plutocrats relax and smile... "ahh, our position is ensured"... unless nationalization gets put on the table I suppose... then the people get the what I can only guess is the more special joy of having zero choice, greater cost, no incentive to innovation, and bureaucratic empowerment... there is also the option for revolution... the history of socially trans-formative revolutions from 1789 on is such a happy one I can totally see why a person would want that! (this is called striking a note of sarcasm)... but, you know, there's always the chance that A NEW revolution will finally get it right and not leave millions of people dead in the pursuit of the unattainable fiction of a new man acting only for the benefit of others... yep, that's worth giving a shot for the thirtieth or fortieth time!

I find it interesting no one responding to an exercise in common sense in questioning the blood-for-oil narrative I put out there... humans sure will stick to their scripts, even when it doesn't withstand scrutiny...

ugh... I have a headache... I need a cigarette

[darkeyes]

Hmmmm maybe love as you put it and the way you mean it is overstating it a little Pad hun.. love so much of what we are told he taught certainly... if love there be it is not love of God or Saviour... but of a very special mortal man whose teachings (as we know them) have helped shape my life... there are others...Karl Marx being one.. Tom Payne another.. Sylvia Pankhurst, Mary Wollstonecraft and Rosa Luxemburg of me own gender... and more... love what they have taught me by what they have said and written and by what we know of their lives.. mostly.. love as very special and very flawed human beings all... we all are in our own way, which is why I do find it so difficult to hate and have done so very rarely..

*laffs*.. and I try to be good people, Pad... but am as flawed as any... and am loved and detested in me own little world of life and living just as they were (and still are) in theirs..

[Paddarick69]

I have this gift of seeing through stuff, though, and it's always infuriated people who view me as being part of their team (fellow Catholics: "how can you like a blasphemer? how can you embrace unsanctioned sexuality?"; fellow conservatives:"how can you like blah blah blah?"; fellow libertarians: "how blah?"; now throw in fellow bisexuals, "blah blah blah?")... you made me openly laugh a bunch of times... I can tell you live for your family... and you empathize with those in pain... that's pretty much all I care about in folks

rough, rough morning :(

11 hours of work ahead... I actually welcome the escape

[gen11]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6c_dinY3fM

[darkeyes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6c_dinY3fM
Trying to whittle us down to size hey, Gen? Have 2 use a sharper tool than this 1 methinks..:tongue:


...priceless...;)

[gen11]

Don't have to . . . . the best you'll ever do is get arrested for blowing up a streetcorner mailbox. You and I both are cosmically unimportant in the grand scheme of things, One difference between us is that I know it, and you don't.

[darkeyes]

Don't have to . . . . the best you'll ever do is get arrested for blowing up a streetcorner mailbox. You and I both are cosmically unimportant in the grand scheme of things, One difference between us is that I know it, and you don't.
U really have no idea about me whatsoever have u? I agree we are unimportant in the great scheme of things... we are but microbes on the surface of the earth.. but we are human beings and living things.. yet we are all important in our own way as movers and shakers... for no matter how brief and inconsequential our existence, if u did not exist, my life, and that of every living being on this world of ours would be different... without you or I having been born, the unwritten story of our future world would be different from what it will be.. so Gen hun.. we are both inconsequential and yet we are both incredibly important as to how things are and will be in this world.. far more than u probably have realised... life and the world would go on if we had never been born and so we are unimportant.. but as to the shape life takes, by our interaction with the world around us.. we have a far greater importance not because of what we do, because that is irrelevant... but simply by being...

..and if I may correct your other point.. lovers of peace and non violence... pacifists... we do not blow up post boxes.... if I get done for blowing up a post box.. its a frame...;)

[æonpax]

fellow Catholics:

My oldest daughter, who is 16 now, chose to embrace Catholicism when she was 14. I had no problem. She officially did the Baptism, Reconciliation, first Communion stuff when she was 15. I also spent 7 1/2 years (part-time student) at Marquette University myself. While I'm a Tantric, I don't have any objection to Catholicism, at least from the ground level.

There is a similarity between Catholics worldwide and being bisexual, at least philosophically; they cross all barriers. I ran into bisexual men and women from other counties when I was there. There is a very sincere complexity to all of that.

[gen11]

Okay. You win. You're the butterfly fart that starts a hurricane.

[darkeyes]

..and don't u forget it!!!;)

[Paddarick69]

there can be so MUCH gorgeous complexity to Catholic thought and tradition, Aeon!

ummm, but, I just get a shiver of not wanting to go too deeply into it here - this site is for, ya know, sexy wexy and cock pics and and bodily fluids tasting comparisons and general libidinous frivolity!

I'll always thank (pointing upwards) for my parents... they brought me up with a good grounding in the ways of the Papist but were thoroughly modern as well and never communicated guilt or shame concerning sexuality... they just let me know to be safe and kind in matters sexual and that there's a time and a place for everything and somehow, in the next world, it'll all get sorted out...