dafydd
Aug 11, 2012, 12:08 AM
I'm responding to post below aswell as others in the thread
http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13252-What-a-good-way-to-make-a-statement-huh
Ummm, tenni did you read what I said? Apparently not. And for you to throw the word nigger in my face,just proves that you are a racist jerk, but I guess that's the perks of being a white male.Oh what's it's like to have white privilege? I bet it's awesome. And if I had to be honest you comparing the word nigger to sissy is a huge insult and a slap in the face. I never mention anything about this man's sexuality, in fact he claims that he is straight,but you trying to pick a fight with me because that man was being a complete sissy for attacking a girl.What grown self respecting man does that? He does not have big enough balls to attack the hate groups? I don't think so. So therefore he acted like a little whiny girl, to another girl.
I would also like to add that a person of a specific race that is not white will have a tougher time to co-exist and be who they are,because of whats on the outside. A person can hide being gay, but a person cannot hide their race or gender. These issues that gays speak of is really minor, to what some blacks, Orientals, etc had to go through.
Tenni didn't use the word 'nigger' against you. I read his question as an attempt to get you to empathise with his dislike of 'sissy' by drawing a comparison you both could relate to. you may not know tenni, but you should know that bisexual.com often is a space of ruthless examination of love, difference, hate, acceptance, shame, pride, ethics, anecdotes, analysis and tips on how to give the perfect blow job. It's all good. This is a rather hefty post. Skim readers beware.
To call Tenni 'a racist jerk' is unfair and reactionary in this context especially since he was trying to engage with you rather than attack. Tenni was aiming to link his experience of prejudice to your experience of prejudice, by connecting different words, to the same feeling. Thats a far better approach to working together on discrimination than the unhelpful merry-go-round competition thats been written about here, of who can claim the gold medal of suffering. Should there be a competition around who is the most offended by such slurs?
Could you imagine, for one horrid moment its inclusion on the school curriculum:
"niggers, faggots, cunts, chinks, cripples, pakis, dirty jews, spastics.
Put those slurs in order, from most offensive to least offensive."
and youll see how ridiculous it sounds. As ridiculous as when some people here have been weighing up the relative ease for any one disenfranchised group to escape discrimination (in this case blacks and gays are used to bluntly represent racism and homophobia) by their ability to hide or be seen for their respective difference: e.g. LGBT people can better'escape' oppression (homophobia/biphobia) by'hiding' (ignoring the fact that 'hiding' is a form of oppression, and therefore why should we hide?.
In that case I offer to those contributors the equally absurd suggestion that black people should can easier avoid racism if they only deal with people over the phone, or make sure they're out of a direct line of sight. Absurd of course.
(I understand that racism affects more than just black people but use 'black' skin as the context here in reply to post about black people vs gays/bisexual)
All people who face discrimination for whatever reason should work together in support of those that opress, otherwise we'll hve a situation where difference is cataegorised the way a life insurance company rates cancer above HIV becausen the people with cancer 'are truer victims' of the illness than those with HIV or whatever morally atuned clinical judgement is. All of it is unjust and miserable. And any hierachy of opression is almost sadistic in its objective analysis of the cause and effect of human pain.
I understand in some ways why the 'my difference is harder to bear than yours is' hand needs to be played: why its important to keep reminding others of just what the daily cost of prejudice is (especially when for some people who dont experience it, racism seems to be old news...eclipsed by the current social struggles for LGBT rights. It's important to remind people "hey we're still here, racism is still an issue"..but it shouldn't be at the expense of denying the struggle for LGBT rights...both groups can work alongside each other, as both groups indeed intersect each other, and maybe now in some areas of the world is the time for LGBT rights to take centre stage... because their rights thereof are more consistently denied.
Had black civil rights not had a time of focus, racism would have a firmer grip on western societies than it does today. if you're part of a discenfrachised group, with experience fighting and winning your rights, isn't it better to pass that experience down to newer groups (who are using your example as inspiration) and who are fighting the same pivotal struggles you did years ago?
For nobody who has or is being currently opressed will need much convincing as to how awful racism is, they understand slavery as it pertains to their own chains, but just because those chains are less visible than others, it doesn't make their suffering any less acute.
Certainly here in this forum, racism isnt as deconstructed as say biphobia for instance, and perhaps we could do well to hear more from LGBT people who also suffer racism (good to be aware of the compounded prejudice of being black and gay: racists and homophobes dont vie for the top spot of best bigot, but if they did attacking a black lesbian woman would score them double points.. aren't those sections of society more disenfranchised?.. when you face prejudice from within the black community for being gay AND the gay community for being black PLUS all the regulars, the non-gay racists AND the non-white homophobes alike!
this 'hierachy of oppression' assumes wrongly that:
a) being able to hide your sexuality is easy...that everyone is undetectable if they keep their heads down and mouths shut
b) that 'hiding' is an acceptable way of challenging prjeudice. Whould you kindly consider putting a paper bag over your head to hide your skin colour? (of course not...)
c) that people are attacked/maligned for being gay/bi because bigots have correctly identified them as such.. let's not forget that it is precisely the 'less visible' nature of sexuality that means ANYBODY straight/bi/gay can be targetted because of their PERCIEVED orientation.. e.g. bi/homophobia doesn't just effect bisexuals/gays/lesbians.
d) that 'hiding' is a better alternative to fighting prejudice, or standing up and being counted. Staying silent has many dire consequences, e.g. shame; life-long fear; the tangled webs of deception wihtin one's own family; and/or a pressure-cooker like effect which results in riskier or out-of-character behaviour when one feels they can let their guard down, etc (as only a few examples)
i don't think prejudice is not born out of the fear of difference. although that eventually plays a key part. I think prejudice is born out of fear of the unknown, that which we don't know..or have never seen.. the freaks, or the individuals who wander into town one day and look nothing like the locals e.g ("the town was a happy mixture of black and white faces, until one day a man with a blue face rode into town")
aren't children who grow up in mixed race communities, more likely to accept different races than those who grow having never shaken hands with a black person, or shared a drink at the bar with one? how does 'hiding' diverse sexualities make for a better understanding/fairer treatment of them?
Remaining invisible isn't always an LGBT persons choice, and it is certainly does not stop or reduce the effects of homophobia. in fact it magnifies them, and not just for the individual but for the rest of society. why is it so difficult for a gay couple to hold hands in public? because people aren't used to seeing gay people in public... hand holding and public displays of affection are the only way lgbt people are visible our day to day lifesd affirmed.
How can your oppression be of greater impact/hurt than mine? Aren't you saying that your happiness (or its lack of) is of higher value than someone mine...
Isnt that what underwrites racism itself? The idea that the human race can be divided up into arbitary categories where some peoples feelings are of greater value then others.
in any case, i assume that like Tenni tried to that we are all coming from two sides of the same oppressed coin.
i wish sometimes all LGBT had blue skin. people would have to deal with homophobia instead of denying it existed or normalising it as 'one of those things to deal with'. Sexuality is not a coloured scarf, or luxurious accessory that can be worn or discarded without shame, and demands a greater greater dignity in its expression.
Repression prevents expression, and so the trade off for 'passing' means that LGBT cultural expression is smothered. think of it like this: if the visibility of black people makes them more available as targets it also makes their culture more available to the masses. You may have no choice to be seen in the eyes of racists, but that also means that society as a whole has no choice in seeing you AND recognising your pain, celebrating your culture, listening to your opinions etc.
Also visibility begets doubt and uncertainty. How many black couples do we know that wont hold hands in public, afraid of being recognised as black by that very linking act...how many black people do you know are cautious about mentioning the 'black' film they saw last night, or actually deny the 'black' club they danced at, on a Monday morning in the office canteen when weekends are being discussed. I don't know anybody who is afraid of mentioning that Nelson Mandella has been a key inspiration in their lives, and yet I know some gay people who are in love with the film Milk, and the legacy of Harvey, how his words inspired them to live happier and truer lives, and yet when the topic comes up in company, pretend as though they never heard of the man, for fear of association to his cause... how is pretending you know nothing of those who you most deeply admire/respect/love easy and/or healthy? not be judged as a faggot by people at work is (for me) no acceptable trade off for lying to them about the man i love, and if i did lie, either way its prejudice that is calling the shots here.
'Hiding' is itself opression and maybe worse. I might still suffer at the hands of relentless bigots, only now caught within my web of lies, i am more utterly defenseless. The dignity of my soul is afforded no battle-cry, in being able to fight back... I cannot find strentgh in my own army, because to do so would require my 'outing', acknowledgement of deceipt on both sides, and the potential loss of all that wanted to protect (not just my own interests either). luckily i stuck two fingers up at 'hiding' long ago.
Imagine (in empathy if you will) if you could turn off your skin colour when needed, and 'hide', and how that might lead to the disSacociating yourself in public from everything you hold dear... sanitising your life from its black roots, denying or revoking anything observed to be part of your black likes, black preferences, black lesiure time, deeply held beliefs etc...making sure they know you despise all those things so that you can escape association. that is what 'hiding' means.
and if you still think its the easy road, be sure that if you do play the hiding game, every now and again, happy in your hidden life, you catch your true self in the mirror and youll worry that the act isn't good enough, that you're a failure even at pretending what you're not and that, as youve played the part of hating all that they hate, youve lost the line that seperated THEM as racists from YOU as black, and when all is said and done, you have simply become like them, racist, for be sure they will not have become black.
And so in hiding and pretending, the full effect of racism is exposed... the cruel judgement of disgust behind their eyes, is now sitting behind your own, and the blackness of your skin is now no longer something to be preserved at all costs, but simply a burden, and something you yourself wish you could wash away, like dirt.
Hiding means people loving you for what ur not, and secretley hating yourself for what you are. You hate yourself and you hate them, and you hate others like you who wont hide, or who make too much noise (big advertisements of blatant black). Slowly you begin to understand why the racists had their issues, and you begin to think they might have a point and so you slowly change from resistance to compliance. And whilst the chains about your feet are loosened for the performance, they are now completely of your own arrangement, and so what is done to you now becomes what you're doing to yourself.
The cross of visbility (skin colour) that you claim as greater than the cross of invisibilty (sexuality) is actually in many ways your your key to freedom because it forces you to fight.
If you really want to weigh out the true measure of inequality, make sure you include the 21st century (not just the 20th and prior to that) in that song of sorrow. last time i looked, black people were significantly trailing behind the gays for the top spot of opression, largely slowed down by distractions such as their weddings, planned adoptions, taking employees to court who ignored anti-racism legislation, going to the cinema to see a black actor as a role model in the lead, and of course the time some black people may put in serving their country in the armed forces. a horribly crude analogy but then so is a point system for the oppressed.
It may be many more years before a gay couple might be afforded those freedoms, and probably a lot longer if we don't use our experiences with prejudice to inform and enable everyone to fight for those rights. We don't want to second class citizens, if that makes you third class citizens...we want everyone to be on the same level, to have equal footing, to have to suffer the same attrociously slow DSL speeds, no matter who they love or where they are kissing...er...
anyway just my long-winded reaction, in response to several comments (which im sure were just a reactions also to a both aggreed upon bigotted society.) And as it pertained to hiding and the invisibility of LGBT people, I thought merited its own threas. i don't want to be anyones' enemy on this topic of discrimination, and if I've put peoples' back up its only to shout out the fact that we should be aiming our sites on the real enemies...the purveyors of hate out there, who wouldn't even think sign up to a site such as www.bisexual.com (http://www.bisexual.com), and bother chatting in the first place... not unless they wanted to forego their queer hatred for a bit of queer loving (if you know what i mean). either way, they'd attempt less open dialogue around their slurs.
Ultimately, I really believe 'hiding' is no less abusive than throwing a slur in someone's face, whether that slur be officially recognised as hurtful or not. in some ways, the moniker 'the n-word' is, in itself, evidence of a civil rights movement further on the road to equality than any others. Even racists now begrudginly use it in the public forum (TV, press) aware of the rightful public outcry if they did. How awesome is that, to see them censored and kept in line? I'd love to see some bi/homophobes on TV at least look if they are trying to be well-behaved. Because awareness of what you can't say is at least awareness that the issue still exists, and that I suppose is where some of you folk were coming from in the first place. I just wish we could all make that clearer without having to resort to the bigots'language of divide and conquer e.g. 'you're either with us or against us.'
Don't we all, here at least, want to be free of such brutality?
Daf
http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13252-What-a-good-way-to-make-a-statement-huh
Ummm, tenni did you read what I said? Apparently not. And for you to throw the word nigger in my face,just proves that you are a racist jerk, but I guess that's the perks of being a white male.Oh what's it's like to have white privilege? I bet it's awesome. And if I had to be honest you comparing the word nigger to sissy is a huge insult and a slap in the face. I never mention anything about this man's sexuality, in fact he claims that he is straight,but you trying to pick a fight with me because that man was being a complete sissy for attacking a girl.What grown self respecting man does that? He does not have big enough balls to attack the hate groups? I don't think so. So therefore he acted like a little whiny girl, to another girl.
I would also like to add that a person of a specific race that is not white will have a tougher time to co-exist and be who they are,because of whats on the outside. A person can hide being gay, but a person cannot hide their race or gender. These issues that gays speak of is really minor, to what some blacks, Orientals, etc had to go through.
Tenni didn't use the word 'nigger' against you. I read his question as an attempt to get you to empathise with his dislike of 'sissy' by drawing a comparison you both could relate to. you may not know tenni, but you should know that bisexual.com often is a space of ruthless examination of love, difference, hate, acceptance, shame, pride, ethics, anecdotes, analysis and tips on how to give the perfect blow job. It's all good. This is a rather hefty post. Skim readers beware.
To call Tenni 'a racist jerk' is unfair and reactionary in this context especially since he was trying to engage with you rather than attack. Tenni was aiming to link his experience of prejudice to your experience of prejudice, by connecting different words, to the same feeling. Thats a far better approach to working together on discrimination than the unhelpful merry-go-round competition thats been written about here, of who can claim the gold medal of suffering. Should there be a competition around who is the most offended by such slurs?
Could you imagine, for one horrid moment its inclusion on the school curriculum:
"niggers, faggots, cunts, chinks, cripples, pakis, dirty jews, spastics.
Put those slurs in order, from most offensive to least offensive."
and youll see how ridiculous it sounds. As ridiculous as when some people here have been weighing up the relative ease for any one disenfranchised group to escape discrimination (in this case blacks and gays are used to bluntly represent racism and homophobia) by their ability to hide or be seen for their respective difference: e.g. LGBT people can better'escape' oppression (homophobia/biphobia) by'hiding' (ignoring the fact that 'hiding' is a form of oppression, and therefore why should we hide?.
In that case I offer to those contributors the equally absurd suggestion that black people should can easier avoid racism if they only deal with people over the phone, or make sure they're out of a direct line of sight. Absurd of course.
(I understand that racism affects more than just black people but use 'black' skin as the context here in reply to post about black people vs gays/bisexual)
All people who face discrimination for whatever reason should work together in support of those that opress, otherwise we'll hve a situation where difference is cataegorised the way a life insurance company rates cancer above HIV becausen the people with cancer 'are truer victims' of the illness than those with HIV or whatever morally atuned clinical judgement is. All of it is unjust and miserable. And any hierachy of opression is almost sadistic in its objective analysis of the cause and effect of human pain.
I understand in some ways why the 'my difference is harder to bear than yours is' hand needs to be played: why its important to keep reminding others of just what the daily cost of prejudice is (especially when for some people who dont experience it, racism seems to be old news...eclipsed by the current social struggles for LGBT rights. It's important to remind people "hey we're still here, racism is still an issue"..but it shouldn't be at the expense of denying the struggle for LGBT rights...both groups can work alongside each other, as both groups indeed intersect each other, and maybe now in some areas of the world is the time for LGBT rights to take centre stage... because their rights thereof are more consistently denied.
Had black civil rights not had a time of focus, racism would have a firmer grip on western societies than it does today. if you're part of a discenfrachised group, with experience fighting and winning your rights, isn't it better to pass that experience down to newer groups (who are using your example as inspiration) and who are fighting the same pivotal struggles you did years ago?
For nobody who has or is being currently opressed will need much convincing as to how awful racism is, they understand slavery as it pertains to their own chains, but just because those chains are less visible than others, it doesn't make their suffering any less acute.
Certainly here in this forum, racism isnt as deconstructed as say biphobia for instance, and perhaps we could do well to hear more from LGBT people who also suffer racism (good to be aware of the compounded prejudice of being black and gay: racists and homophobes dont vie for the top spot of best bigot, but if they did attacking a black lesbian woman would score them double points.. aren't those sections of society more disenfranchised?.. when you face prejudice from within the black community for being gay AND the gay community for being black PLUS all the regulars, the non-gay racists AND the non-white homophobes alike!
this 'hierachy of oppression' assumes wrongly that:
a) being able to hide your sexuality is easy...that everyone is undetectable if they keep their heads down and mouths shut
b) that 'hiding' is an acceptable way of challenging prjeudice. Whould you kindly consider putting a paper bag over your head to hide your skin colour? (of course not...)
c) that people are attacked/maligned for being gay/bi because bigots have correctly identified them as such.. let's not forget that it is precisely the 'less visible' nature of sexuality that means ANYBODY straight/bi/gay can be targetted because of their PERCIEVED orientation.. e.g. bi/homophobia doesn't just effect bisexuals/gays/lesbians.
d) that 'hiding' is a better alternative to fighting prejudice, or standing up and being counted. Staying silent has many dire consequences, e.g. shame; life-long fear; the tangled webs of deception wihtin one's own family; and/or a pressure-cooker like effect which results in riskier or out-of-character behaviour when one feels they can let their guard down, etc (as only a few examples)
i don't think prejudice is not born out of the fear of difference. although that eventually plays a key part. I think prejudice is born out of fear of the unknown, that which we don't know..or have never seen.. the freaks, or the individuals who wander into town one day and look nothing like the locals e.g ("the town was a happy mixture of black and white faces, until one day a man with a blue face rode into town")
aren't children who grow up in mixed race communities, more likely to accept different races than those who grow having never shaken hands with a black person, or shared a drink at the bar with one? how does 'hiding' diverse sexualities make for a better understanding/fairer treatment of them?
Remaining invisible isn't always an LGBT persons choice, and it is certainly does not stop or reduce the effects of homophobia. in fact it magnifies them, and not just for the individual but for the rest of society. why is it so difficult for a gay couple to hold hands in public? because people aren't used to seeing gay people in public... hand holding and public displays of affection are the only way lgbt people are visible our day to day lifesd affirmed.
How can your oppression be of greater impact/hurt than mine? Aren't you saying that your happiness (or its lack of) is of higher value than someone mine...
Isnt that what underwrites racism itself? The idea that the human race can be divided up into arbitary categories where some peoples feelings are of greater value then others.
in any case, i assume that like Tenni tried to that we are all coming from two sides of the same oppressed coin.
i wish sometimes all LGBT had blue skin. people would have to deal with homophobia instead of denying it existed or normalising it as 'one of those things to deal with'. Sexuality is not a coloured scarf, or luxurious accessory that can be worn or discarded without shame, and demands a greater greater dignity in its expression.
Repression prevents expression, and so the trade off for 'passing' means that LGBT cultural expression is smothered. think of it like this: if the visibility of black people makes them more available as targets it also makes their culture more available to the masses. You may have no choice to be seen in the eyes of racists, but that also means that society as a whole has no choice in seeing you AND recognising your pain, celebrating your culture, listening to your opinions etc.
Also visibility begets doubt and uncertainty. How many black couples do we know that wont hold hands in public, afraid of being recognised as black by that very linking act...how many black people do you know are cautious about mentioning the 'black' film they saw last night, or actually deny the 'black' club they danced at, on a Monday morning in the office canteen when weekends are being discussed. I don't know anybody who is afraid of mentioning that Nelson Mandella has been a key inspiration in their lives, and yet I know some gay people who are in love with the film Milk, and the legacy of Harvey, how his words inspired them to live happier and truer lives, and yet when the topic comes up in company, pretend as though they never heard of the man, for fear of association to his cause... how is pretending you know nothing of those who you most deeply admire/respect/love easy and/or healthy? not be judged as a faggot by people at work is (for me) no acceptable trade off for lying to them about the man i love, and if i did lie, either way its prejudice that is calling the shots here.
'Hiding' is itself opression and maybe worse. I might still suffer at the hands of relentless bigots, only now caught within my web of lies, i am more utterly defenseless. The dignity of my soul is afforded no battle-cry, in being able to fight back... I cannot find strentgh in my own army, because to do so would require my 'outing', acknowledgement of deceipt on both sides, and the potential loss of all that wanted to protect (not just my own interests either). luckily i stuck two fingers up at 'hiding' long ago.
Imagine (in empathy if you will) if you could turn off your skin colour when needed, and 'hide', and how that might lead to the disSacociating yourself in public from everything you hold dear... sanitising your life from its black roots, denying or revoking anything observed to be part of your black likes, black preferences, black lesiure time, deeply held beliefs etc...making sure they know you despise all those things so that you can escape association. that is what 'hiding' means.
and if you still think its the easy road, be sure that if you do play the hiding game, every now and again, happy in your hidden life, you catch your true self in the mirror and youll worry that the act isn't good enough, that you're a failure even at pretending what you're not and that, as youve played the part of hating all that they hate, youve lost the line that seperated THEM as racists from YOU as black, and when all is said and done, you have simply become like them, racist, for be sure they will not have become black.
And so in hiding and pretending, the full effect of racism is exposed... the cruel judgement of disgust behind their eyes, is now sitting behind your own, and the blackness of your skin is now no longer something to be preserved at all costs, but simply a burden, and something you yourself wish you could wash away, like dirt.
Hiding means people loving you for what ur not, and secretley hating yourself for what you are. You hate yourself and you hate them, and you hate others like you who wont hide, or who make too much noise (big advertisements of blatant black). Slowly you begin to understand why the racists had their issues, and you begin to think they might have a point and so you slowly change from resistance to compliance. And whilst the chains about your feet are loosened for the performance, they are now completely of your own arrangement, and so what is done to you now becomes what you're doing to yourself.
The cross of visbility (skin colour) that you claim as greater than the cross of invisibilty (sexuality) is actually in many ways your your key to freedom because it forces you to fight.
If you really want to weigh out the true measure of inequality, make sure you include the 21st century (not just the 20th and prior to that) in that song of sorrow. last time i looked, black people were significantly trailing behind the gays for the top spot of opression, largely slowed down by distractions such as their weddings, planned adoptions, taking employees to court who ignored anti-racism legislation, going to the cinema to see a black actor as a role model in the lead, and of course the time some black people may put in serving their country in the armed forces. a horribly crude analogy but then so is a point system for the oppressed.
It may be many more years before a gay couple might be afforded those freedoms, and probably a lot longer if we don't use our experiences with prejudice to inform and enable everyone to fight for those rights. We don't want to second class citizens, if that makes you third class citizens...we want everyone to be on the same level, to have equal footing, to have to suffer the same attrociously slow DSL speeds, no matter who they love or where they are kissing...er...
anyway just my long-winded reaction, in response to several comments (which im sure were just a reactions also to a both aggreed upon bigotted society.) And as it pertained to hiding and the invisibility of LGBT people, I thought merited its own threas. i don't want to be anyones' enemy on this topic of discrimination, and if I've put peoples' back up its only to shout out the fact that we should be aiming our sites on the real enemies...the purveyors of hate out there, who wouldn't even think sign up to a site such as www.bisexual.com (http://www.bisexual.com), and bother chatting in the first place... not unless they wanted to forego their queer hatred for a bit of queer loving (if you know what i mean). either way, they'd attempt less open dialogue around their slurs.
Ultimately, I really believe 'hiding' is no less abusive than throwing a slur in someone's face, whether that slur be officially recognised as hurtful or not. in some ways, the moniker 'the n-word' is, in itself, evidence of a civil rights movement further on the road to equality than any others. Even racists now begrudginly use it in the public forum (TV, press) aware of the rightful public outcry if they did. How awesome is that, to see them censored and kept in line? I'd love to see some bi/homophobes on TV at least look if they are trying to be well-behaved. Because awareness of what you can't say is at least awareness that the issue still exists, and that I suppose is where some of you folk were coming from in the first place. I just wish we could all make that clearer without having to resort to the bigots'language of divide and conquer e.g. 'you're either with us or against us.'
Don't we all, here at least, want to be free of such brutality?
Daf