The article : The Messy Realities of Bisexuality

[Vuillardgr]

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality



I don't know if any of you have read this already, I'd like to get your thoughts on it. There were to paragraphs that gave me pause.

"I recently had a conversation with a married man who described himself as bisexual. I asked him if his attraction to men and women was equal. He affirmed that it was. I then asked, "How do you commit to one person if you must give up 50 percent of who you are?" He responded, "I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone. I want to have kids and grandchildren." I then asked him if he was sexually attracted to his wife or if his attraction was based on his attraction to the privileges of the traditional one man, one woman, and monogamy. He agreed that he was sexually attracted to men but socially attracted to his wife."

It's one thing to be open , honest, and help your bisexual partner to become happy in their life and working towards maintaining their relationship with you , but for them to admit to only being attracted to you socially. or if they love u and still attracted to you but attracted to their same sex more..... that may be difficult for most to overcome.


Also:

"One said, "I want to have a good relationship with guys, kinda best friends, but my friends have to be bisexual because if we have the same situation, we can relate to each other. If a bisexual man loves his wife but craves the touch and physical intimacy of a man -- and doesn't get the same feeling from his wife - who can he talk to about it?" He elaborated further, "Having a relationship with a gay guy is hard because the gay guy might spread the secret. You don't fit in with gay men because of fear (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/fear) that your conflict will be exposed and you'll be labeled gay. The only people you can talk with are other married bisexual men. The bi-guys really keep the secret to themselves." In many places under-ground networks of married MSM exist; in most cases their wives are unaware."


I fully support the support group idea. I think it's extremely necessary. What I have a problem with is the secrecy, lies, and cheating. Imagine not being aware of who or what your partner is doing? Under-ground networks?? Listen, I know that most bisexuals stand to lose a great deal when it comes to being honest about themselves, but it doesn't override a partner's need to know. As painful as it can become for both them and their partner, communication is key. Because we all have the right to choose what sort of relationship we will have. That goes for bisexual and spouse.

You never know what your partner may be into but the only way to find out is communicate what you need. Then you both can choose if the relationship is something that you want to continue. As I've said in previous posts.... everyone involved deserves to be in a happy , healthy, balanced relationship.

[23LaVerne]

Thanks for posting the link. It's really a fascinating read and insight into the minds of some bisexuals. I too, want to reiterate and affirm your last point. I just don't know if we (bisexuals) will ever be truly accepted by many people who consider themselves only as being either gay or straight if we continue to live in the world of secrecy, lies, and cheating. I am not going to judge others that still do engage in these behaviors because of my faith and the love that I experience every moment in my life. However, after much reflection and I hope personal growth, that at this point in my life, the only people that really matter to me are my wife and my children. So, being honest and open about my desires and sexuality with my wife is really the only path to inner peace and our joy of being committed to one another. If I am ever going to be truly happy with my choices and thus, my life this is the only path that I can follow.

[tenni]

I think that one of the most important things to pay attention to is that this is written by a gay man who once used the term "bisexual" to describe himself. He seems to spend a fair amount of the article referencing "gay" than "bisexual". Some of the men that he quotes may have been gay men and he states that some were like him.

In the first quote, the man's reference to socially attracted to his wife may be looked at positively rather than negative to mean that he loves his wife emotionally and sees men as only for sex with no socializing outside of physical sex. I've heard many married bisexual men make this reference with slightly different words. You may read some bimen on this site refer to having no emotional attraction to other men but merely interested in the genitals of a man. It is hard to tell though because he used the word "social" and that may be misunderstood.

The problem with secrecy, lies and cheating is a problem of none acceptance of bisexual men by society. Bisexual women experience less social stigma and rejection. If there was full acceptance of bisexual men, there would be no reason for secrecy, lies and cheating. None of these three behaviours are good for the bisexual man nor anyone involved with him. If there were genuine acceptance and it included acceptance that some bisexuals love their partner but "need" physical sex with the same gender why be secretive, lie and cheat?

Your last two sentences in the OP are very true. What is sad is the reference to "you both may choose if the relationship is one that you want to continue". Unintentionally, by mentioning this you represent the fear of bisexual men as to why they are they hold back from being truthful. Fear of loss, fear of rejection, FEAR.

[_Joe_]

My wife often wonders if I'm going to run off with another man. Wonders is the wrong word - she's afraid of it. She doesn't seem to understand the odds of me running off with another man due to lust/love taking over is exactly the same as another woman. Sure the target market doubled but there is still a target market, and I rather eat the grass on my side of the fence thank you very much.

[Vuillardgr]

Tenni,

You may consider it sad , but it's true. Both have to consider whether or not they would want to continue in the relationship if one or both won't be happy in the long run. It would be awesome for every bisexual if their partners would embrace that particular evolving relationship. It just doesn't happen all the time. I am all for exploring, supporting, and loving your partner. But ultimately, in any relationship both parties have to be on the same page. The partner is either going to embrace it fully and participate, or support their bisexual partner in pursing outside relationships with their blessing, or know what's going on and willfully look the other way as long as it doesn't interfere with their home lives. Different choices for different people. If a couple for whatever reason can't fall into either one of these categories, then yes it's time to decide whether or not to continue the relationship.

Listen, I think it's awesome when someone has a partner in their life that has the capacity to allow them the freedom to explore other relationships. They are truly fortunate.
Now, a bisexual can have a partner that loves them a great deal, and is supportive and will try their best to agree upon parameters that will allow that relationship to work. Yet, that partner may not be able to handle the emotional, time, love, etc. ramifications that come along with the changing relationship. It has nothing to do with jealousy. They would just love their partner enough to say I want you to be happy and Ill do everything I can to help you with that...but I need happiness as well, I tried, I love you so much , but I can't.

It's just being honest. That spouse shouldn't be chastised for being honest about their feelings and their needs. As I've said before, it's about two people ...not just one. A friend of mine is going through something similar. She is really trying because she loves him, but she is holding on by a thread emotionally and physically. She and men and women like her shouldn't be thought of as jealous, or selfish. She's being trying for many many months...loving her husband... trying to see if her feelings will change about him being with other men....him having feelings for them...at home 3 nights a week alone , praying that her marriage will work out, praying that he will continue to come home and even sometimes picturing her life without him.

I'll support her in whatever decision she ultimately makes. I want her happy too.

Oh as for the "socially" statement. I didn't misinterpret. The guy interviewed loves his wife sure.... but not in love with her. He wants that traditional life and she is the way to it. For most people being loved "socially" isn't nearly enough. I understand being afraid. I hate the fact that society has pushed bisexuals into many corners. That being said, it's no excuse to lie. It doesn't trump a partner's right to know. Period. When you are upfront and honest, it may be hellish, maybe not...but if you are in a relationship with someone ..truth has to be present.

[Long Duck Dong]

I would rather be honest and lose a partner / relationship, than live a lie and betray the person I claim to love..... and its simply because I do not want to compromise my standards..... and my partner is a person too, with feelings, thoughts, emotions and a right of choice......

if people choose not to accept me or my choices in my life... then so be it, its my life and I do not have to associate with them as there are many more others that are accepting and understanding, that I can associate with...... and its the same with a partner....they do not have to be with me if they do not want to be with me... and yes its something that can hurt, but how can i ask them to accept me, if I would not accept their choices for them...

non bisexuals also stand to lose a lot by being honest about what they want in their relationship, they can lose a partner they love and trust, and end up with a dishonest partner that betrays them, but its a aspect of relationships/ marriages that often gets ignored, as people tend to focus on the me, myself and I, in a us, we and ourselves situation

[FunE1]

Unfortunately, the point the article's author was making really had to do with married men who have sex with men, which led him to make blanket statements (many of which are untrue) about ALL bisexuals. Example: " In a culture that still values monogamy as the ideal in relationships, it is hard to get past the issue that all bisexuals who act on their sexual attraction are guilty (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/guilt) of infidelity (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/infidelity)." Uhm, excuse me?

While some of his points about married MSM are accurate, I think his overall understanding of bisexuality is skewed by his own experience as a long-time closeted homosexual. To wit: bi-sexuality does NOT have to mean non-monogamous or polyamorous. Nor does it mean that a bisexual person has to "give up" a part of themselves by being in a relationship. That's just silly. Nobody asserts that a heterosexual person gives up a part of themselves when they enter a relationship.

As a look at a very specific segment of the bisexual population, the article is interesting, but assumes too much.

[ExSailor]

Thanks for posting the link. It's really a fascinating read and insight into the minds of some bisexuals. I too, want to reiterate and affirm your last point. I just don't know if we (bisexuals) will ever be truly accepted by many people who consider themselves only as being either gay or straight if we continue to live in the world of secrecy, lies, and cheating. I am not going to judge others that still do engage in these behaviors because of my faith and the love that I experience every moment in my life. However, after much reflection and I hope personal growth, that at this point in my life, the only people that really matter to me are my wife and my children. So, being honest and open about my desires and sexuality with my wife is really the only path to inner peace and our joy of being committed to one another. If I am ever going to be truly happy with my choices and thus, my life this is the only path that I can follow. We bisexuals do not live in a world of secrecy, lies, and cheating any more than heterosexuals do. Many of us are out and have been out for decades and people learned about bisexuality as its own sexual orientation long before Stonewall and people knew for sure in the early 70s. I've been out since the mid 60s and politically active and involved with the bisexual community since the late 60s and early 70s, and my bisexual female partner and I are still active today. Yes there is a lot of biphobia and bisexual erasure from gays and straight people; but there are some gays and heteros who are not biphobic.

[tenni]

Vuil. I think that it isgood that you are attempting to support your friend. As far as the social statement goes did he say what you wrote or are you interpreting him? He made an unclear statement. I have given my interpretation based on my personal experience with men in his situation and what I have heard bimen state.

As far as lies are concerned, you are correct. I think that if there is a pattern of behaviour that I try to look beyond that lie and ask why? I gave my opinion why. The question for this site is what can we collectively do to get a monosexual society to understand and accept as legitimately acceptable behaviour that a person may choseto be monogamous for their own reasons but not expect another person to be monogamous in a reationship with them as a default most common way of thinking. I dont see that happening too soon.

[Vuillardgr]

Vuil. I think that it isgood that you are attempting to support your friend. As far as the social statement goes did he say what you wrote or are you interpreting him? He made an unclear statement. I have given my interpretation based on my personal experience with men in his situation and what I have heard bimen state.

As far as lies are concerned, you are correct. I think that if there is a pattern of behaviour that I try to look beyond that lie and ask why? I gave my opinion why. The question for this site is what can we collectively do to get a monosexual society to understand and accept as legitimately acceptable behaviour that a person may choseto be monogamous for their own reasons but not expect another person to be monogamous in a reationship with them as a default most common way of thinking. I dont see that happening too soon.

I was under the impression that this site was to allow people a voice and support for bisexuals , partners, and friends. I see people as people. Whether they are hetero, bi, etc., is only apart of who they are.

It doesn't measure whether or not we have the capacity to be monogamous or poly. Which is irrelevant. Our sexuality doesn't give us the give us the green light to cheat and lie. There is no excuse for that. That person's character needs to be examined. If someone needs to be poly, then they will seek someone of a like mind or someone who is open to allowing them to have those experiences without them being present. If someone prefers monogamy, then the same rules apply. It's about having someone in your life that is right for you. It's not political, or something to be analyzed to death... It's about being open about who you are and what you need...and finding your love.

If someone tells their partner they are mono or poly, then the partner should expect just that. When a spouse/lover flips the script, then yeah it's gonna be a problem. So when someone tells me they are looking for monogamy, i expect monogamy. I'm not thinking about society or tradition or any of that. I'm taking you at your word.

You need to be able to see both sides objectively. I take the side of people freely living their lives without fear and embracing honesty, love and choice .

[æonpax]

Sexual orientation is far more complex that just heterosexuals and non-heterosexuals, or gay, straight, bi and transgender. Both the gay and bisexual activists seem to wish to claim a purity of definition that does not exist. The function of research is to control and predict; a diverse group cannot be meaningfully studied.


I also read the eight page article "Living the Good Lie" linked to the OP and as I see it, both articles make an excellent case against any one person or groups of people, attempting to rigidly define any sexual orientation, bisexuality, in particular.

The Kinsey scale, also referred to as the Heterosexual-Homosexual Continuum, shows that between the extremities of being an "absolute" heterosexual and homosexual (gay male/lesbian) a very wide swath of various attitudes and conditions exists which we may identify with but are by no means committed to choosing. This is where the conflict lies.

In the article, Living the Good Lie, the author leaves us with this poignant insight;


"By giving up one identity without a willingness to embrace a new one, he may find himself lonelier than he is now. 'He’s actually pretty happy,' Flanigan said, except for a nagging voice in his head that tells him he’s not being honest about who he should be.”


The ofttimes controversial subject of "sexual fluidity" comes into play here. While used most often with women, can also apply to men. This is to say, no one is bound by anothers definition of what we are, becuase we are what we chose to be and that may be subject to change.

[tenni]

Vuil Your words ring familiar as if a mantra of other non bi. I personally see this site for and about bisexuality. This site is not about cheats, lies. Why do non bis keep bringing cheating and lying up. There are many bisexuals who do neither. We are a wide range and sexual fluidity is our commonality. It comes across to some of us as a campaign. I dont see your post as pro bisexuals. You ask for thoughts. Many have given thoughts. There is no need to keep coming back to me.

[Vuillardgr]

Yes,

I asked for thoughts about the article. Not tunnel vision. Don't twist what I say. If you embrace reading comprehension, I never equated bisexuality with cheats and liars and I certainly didn't say this site was about cheating and lying. I brought up cheating and lying because it was in reference to the article ...nothing more and nothing less.

If anyone has an agenda , it's you. Still playing the bully huh? If someone doesn't jump into your all or nothing skewed version of how people should live their lives, then you attack . It's something you do often. I know I'm not the only one who has mentioned this.

You are so wrapped into your own views and labels. When someone has a different opinion , you quickly yell, out how selfish, blind and jealousy they are. You will continue your tedious , mean self-obsessed diatribe and others will continue to voice their opinion as well. Get used to it.

People get on this site to fellowship , share , and learn. Why not try being apart of that by attempting to see someone else's perspective? I am learning things on this site from some very brave people whom I admire.

Like I told you before, you won't get in the way of that.

[Gearbox]

It's an article written by a homosexual who used sexuality labels but was always homosexual. NO shock he'd think that all married/bi men do that. No shock that he doesn't know what a REAL HONEST bisexual feels etc, so like any other 'homosexual expert on bisexuality' he goes and writes an article about bisexuality.:rolleyes:

"I recently had a conversation with a married man who described himself as bisexual. I asked him if his attraction to men and women was equal. He affirmed that it was. I then asked, "How do you commit to one person if you must give up 50 percent of who you are?" He responded, "I don't want to spend the rest of my life alone. I want to have kids and grandchildren." I then asked him if he was sexually attracted to his wife or if his attraction was based on his attraction to the privileges of the traditional one man, one woman, and monogamy. He agreed that he was sexually attracted to men but socially attracted to his wife."

This is a classic view of bisexuals in 'hetero partnerships' by some homosexuals. They call it a privilege, a social camouflage etc etc, when it has exactly the same reasons as any other m&f relationship.
It is taken that the bi interviewee doesn't love his wife, and just wants kids with her. THAT is true of many married couples of any sexuality, but doesn't speak for all bi males. Yet the homosexual interviewer thought it needless to question further there,for some reason.

"One said, "I want to have a good relationship with guys, kinda best friends, but my friends have to be bisexual because if we have the same situation, we can relate to each other. If a bisexual man loves his wife but craves the touch and physical intimacy of a man -- and doesn't get the same feeling from his wife - who can he talk to about it?" He elaborated further, "Having a relationship with a gay guy is hard because the gay guy might spread the secret. You don't fit in with gay men because of fear (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/fear) that your conflict will be exposed and you'll be labeled gay. The only people you can talk with are other married bisexual men. The bi-guys really keep the secret to themselves." In many places under-ground networks of married MSM exist; in most cases their wives are unaware."
Closeted bi's are arguably even more paranoid than closet gays. They often have more to lose if partnered to someone they love with kids etc. It's also a comfort to know that a sexual partner has as much invested in discretion as the other. A kind of 'Honour amongst thieves'.
It isn't good to cheat, we ALL know that. If there wasn't something stopping cheaters from being open with their partners, they wouldn't be cheating. It's NOT something they all love themselves for, but consider it a 'fix'. It goes on, a LOT with all sexualities by both genders and will only cease when it becomes irrelevant to do so: Monogamy becomes a temporary state to induce bonding, etc and we as adults deal better with insecurities, jealousy, possessiveness etc.;)

[tenni]

Good points Gear.

Vuil
We all have agenda's on this site. Your words seem to indicate something wrong with bisexuals expressing their thoughts about being a bisexual on a bisexual site.

I am on another bisexual site as well. Interestingly I was informed about ten days ago that someone wth the same user name as the one that you use on this site was trying to post. I was ask3d if I knew the person. The moderator suspected that I might based on what they were trying to post. He also suspected that it was a woman. The site is only for mrn as bi women had a parallel site topost on.

That poster using the same user name that you use here seemed to have an interesting agenda.

[Vuillardgr]

An agenda. You know what you are right. I can't speak for anyone else, but my agenda is to get as much information and advice as I can. My friend can't consider doing any research..she hasn't gotten to the point where she can handle it. So I look for her. I am on that site but I haven't posted anything. I just read about other experiences in order to relay some information and support for her. And I have seen you on that site..... doing the same thing you do here... surprise , surprise....

In your mind my words seem to indicate that. Isn't it a coincidence that you are the only one who has accused me of that ? You twist everyone's statements , so I won't even get worked up about that. It's your purpose for being here.

[csrakate]

An agenda. You know what you are right. I can't speak for anyone else, but my agenda is to get as much information and advice as I can. My friend can't consider doing any research..she hasn't gotten to the point where she can handle it. So I look for her. I am on that site but I haven't posted anything. I just read about other experiences in order to relay some information and support for her. And I have seen you on that site..... doing the same thing you do here... surprise , surprise....

In your mind my words seem to indicate that. Isn't it a coincidence that you are the only one who has accused me of that ? You twist everyone's statements , so I won't even get worked up about that. It's your purpose for being here.

He's just the only one who's posted about it. I have my suspicions as well, Vuill.....you sometimes appear to be supportive of bi's yet you post a link to a rather biased article and immediately jump on tenni as a bully. I didn't see where he did any bullying....he simply doesn't agree with you. Some might think you are baiting him.....especially after admitting that you know of him on another site.....Stalk much?

[Vuillardgr]

Ok ... this is the twilight zone.

First, I didn't post the article because I fell in love with it. I wanted to get other's thoughts on it. That's it. Others have done it before. As for the other site, I had no idea Tenni was on there when I signed up. How could I?!! If you read his last post, he is the one doing the stalking not me. This is insane.

Someone just gave me some good advice on here. I have fallen into the trap of trying to reason with people who refuse to see it. You all are more than welcome to your bubble.

Only open minded sane people hold my interests. I didn't come on here to fight.

[jamieknyc]

Gear is right, the article was written by someone who is gay, not bi. Note that the man did NOT say that he was sexually attracted to his wife.

[æonpax]

Gear is right, the article was written by someone who is gay, not bi. Note that the man did NOT say that he was sexually attracted to his wife.

...and? So what if the author is not bisexual. Does that mean what he said isn't relevant or wrong? I don't get it.

Loren A. Olson, MD, DLFAPA is Certified by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology and was recognized by the American Psychiatric Association with the peer-nominated award of Distinguished Life Fellow. After having been nominated by his patients, he received the “Exemplary Psychiatrist” award from the National Alliance for Mental Illness. - http://www.magneticfire.com/about-loren-a-olson/

Both articles he wrote had many different facets, most I agree with, some I don't. I like to discus issues but so far this thread has all the markings of another one of these childish name calling fests complete with juvenile accusations. The fact that a person disagrees with what an author writes is NOT indicative of the person who seeds it. Moreover, the author is well qualified and not just some anonymous name with an ax to grind.

If someone disagrees with the author, point out what is wrong and why one thinks it's wrong.

[jamieknyc]

I meant that the guy the author was speaking to was gay, not the author. If he is gay, he has no business making broad pronouncements claiming to speak for bisexuals.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Tenni,

You may consider it sad , but it's true. Both have to consider whether or not they would want to continue in the relationship if one or both won't be happy in the long run. It would be awesome for every bisexual if their partners would embrace that particular evolving relationship. It just doesn't happen all the time. I am all for exploring, supporting, and loving your partner. But ultimately, in any relationship both parties have to be on the same page. The partner is either going to embrace it fully and participate, or support their bisexual partner in pursing outside relationships with their blessing, or know what's going on and willfully look the other way as long as it doesn't interfere with their home lives. Different choices for different people. If a couple for whatever reason can't fall into either one of these categories, then yes it's time to decide whether or not to continue the relationship.

Listen, I think it's awesome when someone has a partner in their life that has the capacity to allow them the freedom to explore other relationships. They are truly fortunate.
Now, a bisexual can have a partner that loves them a great deal, and is supportive and will try their best to agree upon parameters that will allow that relationship to work. Yet, that partner may not be able to handle the emotional, time, love, etc. ramifications that come along with the changing relationship. It has nothing to do with jealousy. They would just love their partner enough to say I want you to be happy and Ill do everything I can to help you with that...but I need happiness as well, I tried, I love you so much , but I can't.

It's just being honest. That spouse shouldn't be chastised for being honest about their feelings and their needs. As I've said before, it's about two people ...not just one. A friend of mine is going through something similar. She is really trying because she loves him, but she is holding on by a thread emotionally and physically. She and men and women like her shouldn't be thought of as jealous, or selfish. She's being trying for many many months...loving her husband... trying to see if her feelings will change about him being with other men....him having feelings for them...at home 3 nights a week alone , praying that her marriage will work out, praying that he will continue to come home and even sometimes picturing her life without him.

I'll support her in whatever decision she ultimately makes. I want her happy too.

Oh as for the "socially" statement. I didn't misinterpret. The guy interviewed loves his wife sure.... but not in love with her. He wants that traditional life and she is the way to it. For most people being loved "socially" isn't nearly enough. I understand being afraid. I hate the fact that society has pushed bisexuals into many corners. That being said, it's no excuse to lie. It doesn't trump a partner's right to know. Period. When you are upfront and honest, it may be hellish, maybe not...but if you are in a relationship with someone ..truth has to be present.

Exactly. I posted the same question a few months ago, and I got a pretty decent amount of comments. Although I should have been more detailed about bisexual men only loving their wives socially. Also, I hate to get into your friends business, but if her husband is only spending three days out of the week with her, and he is spending more time with his male lover, I strongly suggest, that she needs to let him go.

[csrakate]

Although I should have been more detailed about bisexual men only loving their wives socially.

This is a blatant blanket statement about bisexual men and it just isn't true! Bisexual men are fully capable of being sexually attracted to their wives. If they aren't sexually attracted to their wives then perhaps they are actually gay. Bisexuals are capable of desiring both sexes. Sheesh....How many more times does this have to be said??? If my bisexual husband is merely attracted to me socially, then he has a lovely way of showing it......I guess the hot sex is just something he fakes!!! LOL!

YES....some men may not be attracted to their wives sexually, but this is NOT because they are bisexual.

[jamieknyc]

It does need to be said more times, because you are not going to get the idea that bisexual people have full sex lives with their opposite-sex spouses, through the thick skulls of people of people who repeat these myths. Maybe a jackhammer would be helpful!

Also, having bisexual desires does NOt mean you have an irresistible urge to cheat on your spouse! Sexual attractions do NOT automatically override impulse control- any more than our desire to throttle the people who post these myths overrides our impulse control not to commit an act of violence!

[drmike]

Long duck Dong said, "if people choose not to accept me or my choices in my life... then so be it, its my life and I do not have to associate with them as there are many more others that are accepting and understanding"

He was referencing the fact that if a bisexual man was open with his spouse about wanting to be with men and she didn't accept it, then so be it, she didn't accept him and his choices and so he is morally free to go on without her. She is the one who is acting immoral. ...as though she were a bigot for not accepting him as he was.

Let us not forget that man did make make choices in his life. He chose to marry that woman and vow to be with her for life. That is a huge commitment.

Sure, he can tell her that he made some self discoveries and he wants to be with men, but her not accepting that decision isn't necessarily her being unaccepting of her husband's nature. It may just be her not accepting him breaking his vowels to her.

My wife recently came out to me that she was bi. I think it has been way harder on her than it has on me. She has struggled for many years with guilt and desires unfulfilled. I personally chose to help her feed those desires in an attempt to help her feel better about herself. It has strengthened our bond and brought her greater self-worth ...BUT I don't feel like it was my moral obligation to accept her having extramarital encounters because she has desires to. If that were the case, then heterosexuals wanting their cute young secretary have equal right to screw them on the side if they feel the tight little girl has something physically their spouse just can't or wont offer in the sack.

A vow for life is just that. If you want to argue that marriage is a stupid decision, then make that argument, but don't tell me that a man's word takes second chair to their lustful desires. It just doesn't.

[tenni]

Vuil
Not to belabour your behaviour on another site, anyone may read posts without joining let alone trying to post. It is the same on this site as far as being able to read posts. Whether you read and then joined only you know. You seem to have tried to attack me and you were not permitted.
.
My words may be the same because it is my experience as a non monogamous sexual single bisexual man. I write from my perspective. You ask for information but name call me as a biseual man because you dont like what I post about my life experiences and research?

As far as the gay psychiatrist, he has a perspective and training. As Aeon states, those of us who are bisexual do not agree with all that he writes. You asked for thoughts. Now think about them. Stay off sites for bimen. I be8lieve that what you tried to write about me was blocked for several reasons. You broke their rules

Aeon
Im working on mylimiting tablet. Would you please post the link to the 8 page writing?

DrMike have you considered renegotiating you vows every seven years as a standard approach to your marriage?.

[Gearbox]

..and? So what if the author is not bisexual. Does that mean what he said isn't relevant or wrong? I don't get it.
Reading as a bisexual who has encountered similar homosexuals as the author, AND having read the article, IMO his sexuality and how he came to realise his sexuality has a lot to do with how he views others who CLAIM bisexuality.
Remember, this isn't a scholarly paper that he won awards for, but an article on the net which allows him free reign on bolox and bias as any other with no letters after their name.;)

[tenni]

Aeon Sorry found it. Tablets can be a challenge

[Randypan]

I am completely out as a bisexual. I will not commit to any relationship that is not accepting and supportive of who I am. Therefore I am not in a relationship, just a series of encounters. This site is the closest I've come to a "Support group" and I am truly grateful.

[tenni]

I read the 8 page support article. Six pages discuss being gay and religious conflict between sexual identity vs sexual orientation. At that point the term bisexual is intrducedas a possibility. Conversion therapy was discussed. After going back to the article again I read the gay shrinks advice for a bi married man.

My orginal opinion is reaffirmed that this is primarily the opinions of a gay man more so than an expert psychiatrist on bisexuality. Im not sure but this may come close to practising B Invisibility. So much verbage refers to gay without much positivity about bisexuality. At the end he does make a universal statement about it not mattering as long as you are happy. That reads as good but mostly crap after much of his writing.

[æonpax]

I meant that the guy the author was speaking to was gay, not the author. If he is gay, he has no business making broad pronouncements claiming to speak for bisexuals.

Oh......me bad. Just to make myself clear, I'm looking at the seeded article (and it's link) as sort of a meandering dissertation as opposed to someone claiming to speak for bisexuals. He's qualified enough to give his scholarly opinion which all may agree or disagree with, but I don't see where he's writing as a spokesman...or spokesperson.

I'm referring to the author of those articles.

[æonpax]

Reading as a bisexual who has encountered similar homosexuals as the author, AND having read the article, IMO his sexuality and how he came to realise his sexuality has a lot to do with how he views others who CLAIM bisexuality.
Remember, this isn't a scholarly paper that he won awards for, but an article on the net which allows him free reign on bolox and bias as any other with no letters after their name.;)


True enough. I do some writing for a living and find myself passing off some supreme slop online. However, I read the article differently. I'm just not one of those people who subscribes to 'absolutes' when it comes to human behavior, especially in matters concerning sexual fidelity.

[Vuillardgr]

[/B]

Exactly. I posted the same question a few months ago, and I got a pretty decent amount of comments. Although I should have been more detailed about bisexual men only loving their wives socially. Also, I hate to get into your friends business, but if her husband is only spending three days out of the week with her, and he is spending more time with his male lover, I strongly suggest, that she needs to let him go.

Hi,

Thanks for your comment. She and her husband sat down and agreed to certain terms and she is trying to be fair and live by them. She wants her marriage to work. I support her efforts to do so , but she is coming to a point where her emotional health is getting worse. I encourage her to talk with him again and maybe even get some professional advice. I try to listen more than anything. Do I have my own opinions yes, but it isn't my marriage and we all approach our relationships in different ways. If she continues to go down hill ...I'll have a chat with her and see where her head is.

To everyone: I found the article interesting in terms of context. I wanted to share it and see what you all thought. I'm not advocating anything..it's just an article relevant to some people experiences. To all who are posting objective thoughts and ideas. Thank you. To everyone that reads posts and would like to share your thoughts but are discouraged from doing so due to a few individuals. SPEAK YOUR MIND. This site is for you as well.

[biblkman]

@ , csrakate....I agree with everything u said, it seems lately there are more and more threads saying bi men are really gay or bi men are obsessed with sleeping with other men or bi men can't be faithful, or bi men aren't really attracted to women...( In my own words )

In my opinion the people posting these threads have a more articulate and seemingly sensitive way of stating what I just said...but that's my opinion

[æonpax]

@ , csrakate....I agree with everything u said, it seems lately there are more and more threads saying bi men are really gay or bi men are obsessed with sleeping with other men or bi men can't be faithful, or bi men aren't really attracted to women...( In my own words )

In my opinion the people posting these threads have a more articulate and seemingly sensitive way of stating what I just said...but that's my opinion

Personally, I think all men have a certain, shall I say "compulsion", to act out a fantasy, more than a female. For example, Randy Travis got busted the other day, while driving drunk...naked. Was it the alcohol that lowered his inhibitions or is alcohol being used as an excuse?

[void()]

Personally, I think all men have a certain, shall I
say "compulsion", to act out a fantasy, more than a female. For example,
Randy Travis got busted the other day, while driving drunk...naked. Was
it the alcohol that lowered his inhibitions or is alcohol being used as
an excuse?

Would think gender holds no bias when involved in acting wrong headed.
Stupidity like death does not discriminate. Everyone is both cable and
culpable of it to some degree, self inclusive.


To everyone: I found the article interesting
in terms of context. I wanted to share it and see what you all thought.
I'm not advocating anything..it's just an article relevant to some
people experiences. To all who are posting objective thoughts and ideas.
Thank you. To everyone that reads posts and would like to share your
thoughts but are discouraged from doing so due to a few individuals.
SPEAK YOUR MIND. This site is for you as well.

Some grow weary of fueling inexhaustible trolls with repetition of their
thoughts. It becomes redundant to continually kick dead horses. That
and, the definition of insanity lies in expecting results while using
the same methods. Is it clear some of us don't like to repeat
ourselves? :)

Using absolutes and generalities often leads to conflicting views. It
would be nice if people were able to discuss views without these
elements. That happening is not something I foresee in the immediate
future, perhaps not ever.

This is why some are choosing to merely read and not respond. I know it
is why I cancel a lot of my responses. There just is not a credible
point to angry discussion from a decade ago, continually rehashed.
Nothing was settled then, likely nothing settled now, ever. Apologies if
that seems dramatic, melancholic. Tired of seeing immature crassness on
what is obviously an adult themed site.

Drew welcomes nearly everyone here. I am sure he screens out pedophiles
and other such truly dangerous folks. I would also. One does not desire
having a site policed by the authorities, or such association. Point
being, all genders, races, religions, orientations, political parties
are welcomed openly.

Why should one have to ask we leave absolutes and generalities aside,
here? It should be understood to be something we do upon coming onto the
site, check egos, generalities and absolutes at the door. We are here to
enjoy one another as company, friends, lovers, family. Yes we can
discuss serious issues. No, we do not need to.

And we do not need to repeat a conversation over a decade. Thanks for
reading.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

@ , csrakate....I agree with everything u said, it seems lately there are more and more threads saying bi men are really gay or bi men are obsessed with sleeping with other men or bi men can't be faithful, or bi men aren't really attracted to women...( In my own words )

In my opinion the people posting these threads have a more articulate and seemingly sensitive way of stating what I just said...but that's my opinion

Well,sweetheart you cannot deny it. Lately I have notice that most bisexual men will only want a woman for social things,but when it's time to get behind close doors it's all man on man action.I could be wrong, though, but a lot of stories I read say otherwise. Then again personally I know very few bisexual men,including my brother-in law who is a strange bisexual man.

[DuckiesDarling]

Well,sweetheart you cannot deny it. Lately I have notice that most bisexual men will only want a woman for social things,but when it's time to get behind close doors it's all man on man action.I could be wrong, though, but a lot of stories I read say otherwise. Then again personally I know very few bisexual men,including my brother-in law who is a strange bisexual man.

Well judging from what a lot of women with bisexual mates have posted on here you WOULD be wrong. Bisexual men are sexually attracted to both sexes, they didn't marry their wife as a cover, if they did that they would be pretty much a closeted gay male. Big difference. You claim to be bisexual, Bisexual Virgin, so you really should know the difference. I am not bisexual and I know the difference as clear as night and day.

I don't agree with the article, I found it also to be written mostly from a gay point of view and it made some statements that were offensive both in terms of an actual relationship and the fact that men can love women and be sexually attracted to them regardless of what a gay author thinks.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Well judging from what a lot of women with bisexual mates have posted on here you WOULD be wrong. Bisexual men are sexually attracted to both sexes, they didn't marry their wife as a cover, if they did that they would be pretty much a closeted gay male. Big difference. You claim to be bisexual, Bisexual Virgin, so you really should know the difference. I am not bisexual and I know the difference as clear as night and day.

I don't agree with the article, I found it also to be written mostly from a gay point of view and it made some statements that were offensive both in terms of an actual relationship and the fact that men can love women and be sexually attracted to them regardless of what a gay author thinks.

Well those point of views are from women with bisexual men, so of course they might be a little bias on things, or indenial or hell, don't know that her man is putting up a front.Look all I am saying is, most of the bisexual sites that I am on, it seems like men prefer men sexually. I rarely see some bi men go out their way to have sex with a woman,although they probably get rejected in a heart beat or slap across the face.

[DuckiesDarling]

Really, well I can tell you why I have my location set as somewhere other than I am. I joined this site at the request of my partner, clearly stated I was not here for hookups. I got pm after pm from males seeking a female for sex, check profile they are posting as looking for males for discreet sex. Yet I get pms with phone numbers asking to hook up, changed my location to where it is now and only have recieved a few, I guess the people in NZ can actually read a profile. So what you are seeing posted is not reality, Bisexual Virgin. And you really need to stop implying that those with bisexual partners are in denial. I am not in denial when I felt my partners cock slide deep down my throat or in denial when I felt my partner's cock deep inside me, I am not in denial when I hear him talk about how sexy he finds me or how he can't wait until I return to have me in his arms again, I am not in denial about anything.

[Vuillardgr]

Would think gender holds no bias when involved in acting wrong headed.
Stupidity like death does not discriminate. Everyone is both cable and
culpable of it to some degree, self inclusive.



Some grow weary of fueling inexhaustible trolls with repetition of their
thoughts. It becomes redundant to continually kick dead horses. That
and, the definition of insanity lies in expecting results while using
the same methods. Is it clear some of us don't like to repeat
ourselves? :)

Using absolutes and generalities often leads to conflicting views. It
would be nice if people were able to discuss views without these
elements. That happening is not something I foresee in the immediate
future, perhaps not ever.

This is why some are choosing to merely read and not respond. I know it
is why I cancel a lot of my responses. There just is not a credible
point to angry discussion from a decade ago, continually rehashed.
Nothing was settled then, likely nothing settled now, ever. Apologies if
that seems dramatic, melancholic. Tired of seeing immature crassness on
what is obviously an adult themed site.

Drew welcomes nearly everyone here. I am sure he screens out pedophiles
and other such truly dangerous folks. I would also. One does not desire
having a site policed by the authorities, or such association. Point
being, all genders, races, religions, orientations, political parties
are welcomed openly.

Why should one have to ask we leave absolutes and generalities aside,
here? It should be understood to be something we do upon coming onto the
site, check egos, generalities and absolutes at the door. We are here to
enjoy one another as company, friends, lovers, family. Yes we can
discuss serious issues. No, we do not need to.

And we do not need to repeat a conversation over a decade. Thanks for
reading.


I hear you :-)

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Really, well I can tell you why I have my location set as somewhere other than I am. I joined this site at the request of my partner, clearly stated I was not here for hookups. I got pm after pm from males seeking a female for sex, check profile they are posting as looking for males for discreet sex. Yet I get pms with phone numbers asking to hook up, changed my location to where it is now and only have recieved a few, I guess the people in NZ can actually read a profile. So what you are seeing posted is not reality, Bisexual Virgin. And you really need to stop implying that those with bisexual partners are in denial. I am not in denial when I felt my partners cock slide deep down my throat or in denial when I felt my partner's cock deep inside me, I am not in denial when I hear him talk about how sexy he finds me or how he can't wait until I return to have me in his arms again, I am not in denial about anything.

Look you really did not have to go into grave detail, about you sex life to prove a point,whatever that is,but you completely missed my point. I am saying that most men put on a good facade of things, to deceive others. And bisexual men is no exception.

[Long Duck Dong]

its interesting that things that are said in a neutral stance, are right if a bisexual says it, wrong if a gay person says it, yet it is the same thing said by two different people about bisexuality......

How does a bisexual find a life of true love and intimacy with one person? How can a bisexual man have the depth of feeling which comes from sharing everything when no one person can give him what he needs? Lies and deception (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/deception) are very destructive to relationships. That path may be very difficult to navigate and fraught with pain for all involved. The life of a bisexual can be very difficult unless their primary partner provides the support and freedom to allow him or her the chance to experience intimacy with the other sex.

statements like that in the article, closely match statements in this forum about how many bisexual males may not be happy in a monogamous relationship because part of their needs and desires are not being fulfilled by a single partner...... and it clearly reflects many of the issues that bisexuals do talk about in the site... so why is it so wrong for a gay man to address issues that he can see that bisexual people face and post about ?

honestly it appears that many of the issues around the article, actually have nothing to do with the article, its to do with the sexuality of the author.... and that is further reinforced by the fact that some of the people posting about how the sexuality of the author is a issue, are the same people that have posted statements that match what the author is saying......

[void()]

Well,sweetheart you cannot deny it. Lately I have notice that most bisexual men will only want a woman for social things,but when it's time to get behind close doors it's all man on man action.I could be wrong, though, but a lot of stories I read say otherwise. Then again personally I know very few bisexual men,including my brother-in law who is a strange bisexual man.

Did you ever stop to think that on the internet no one knows you're a dog?

I cannot fathom counting all the heterosexual men whom come to bisexual sites, under the premise they are bisexual to attain women. Some women find a certain mystic and sexual attraction to bisexual men. So, these heterosexual guys play dress up and lie in order to find a woman and get laid. Not denying your point may be valid, or incorrect. You ought not deny an opposing one though.

[Gearbox]

its interesting that things that are said in a neutral stance, are right if a bisexual says it, wrong if a gay person says it, yet it is the same thing said by two different people about bisexuality......
So who said they have issues with every single word in the article?

Honestly, some people (meaning you LDD, as I can't be arsed with snideness) will skip blatant biphobic comments and invent cases of homophobia. That's interesting, but nothing new with you.;)

[Long Duck Dong]

gear.... I posted what I was talking about...... so if you misread it, that ain't my problem and.... you can call it biphobia or homophobia if you want but thats you saying that, its not me saying it.....

I simply and clearly mentioned how I had noticed something about some posters reactions...... that was it.

[csrakate]

LDD....it's not the entire article that the majority of us have issue with but with the declaration that bisexual men cannot be sexually attracted to a woman if he is sexually attracted to a man and that most married bisexual men are married for social reasons. Have you not read your own partner's post? The article makes some very valid points, but his theory about bisexual men, their attraction to women and and their reasons for marriage is based on poorly researched data and seems to be tainted a bit with his own confusion about bisexuality considering he considered himself bisexual at one time. It is indeed bi-phobic to deny that a bisexual man can be sexually attracted to both genders and it is indeed bi-erasure to consider his stance on women as social beards as the norm for bisexual men. That stance is another way of saying bisexual is simply the road to gay. As a professional, his words can be taken as based on scientific theory when in fact, they are far from it. Psychology Today is far from a professional journal, but most lay people will see his credentials and perceive this article as true fact.

[æonpax]

its interesting that things that are said in a neutral stance, are right if a bisexual says it, wrong if a gay person says it, yet it is the same thing said by two different people about bisexuality......

How does a bisexual find a life of true love and intimacy with one person? How can a bisexual man have the depth of feeling which comes from sharing everything when no one person can give him what he needs? Lies and deception (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/deception) are very destructive to relationships. That path may be very difficult to navigate and fraught with pain for all involved. The life of a bisexual can be very difficult unless their primary partner provides the support and freedom to allow him or her the chance to experience intimacy with the other sex.

statements like that in the article, closely match statements in this forum about how many bisexual males may not be happy in a monogamous relationship because part of their needs and desires are not being fulfilled by a single partner...... and it clearly reflects many of the issues that bisexuals do talk about in the site... so why is it so wrong for a gay man to address issues that he can see that bisexual people face and post about ?

honestly it appears that many of the issues around the article, actually have nothing to do with the article, its to do with the sexuality of the author.... and that is further reinforced by the fact that some of the people posting about how the sexuality of the author is a issue, are the same people that have posted statements that match what the author is saying......

Exactly. I read the main article twice becuase I couldn't understand where this inane argument came from. My guess is that there are people deliberately looking for reasons to be offended and if such reasons do not exist, will twist words around until they can feel victimized.

Recently in Milwaukee, there was a brouha involving a state race for the legislature. In a district that is about 50/50 black/white, there was a black candidate stating to a predominantly black crowd, "vote for me becuase I look like you." She is running against a white candidate, whom many blacks feel is infinitely more qualified. Voting purely on race is discriminatory and stupid.

However, that same stupidity holds true in respect to those whom will discriminate against, in this case a writer, just becuase they aren't the same orientation as they are.

At issue, from what I gather, is the myth of the promiscuous bisexual male. The author himself stated that becuase of the complexities surrounding bisexuality and the amount of information that is unknown, one just cannot conclude yes or no when it comes to that issue. There is no "purity" he states.

If the author is wrong, I wish the hell someone here can prove he is, but I haven't seen it.

[darkeyes]

Exactly. I read the main article twice becuase I couldn't understand where this inane argument came from. My guess is that there are people deliberately looking for reasons to be offended and if such reasons do not exist, will twist words around until they can feel victimized.


I agree with both u and Duckie, but sometimes the intention and meaning of a neutral stance does depend on our own position,, even neutral stances to one means something different to another.. and sometimes the neutral stance is not quite so neutral as it looks at face value...

[Long Duck Dong]

kate, I made it clear what I was referring to..... the aspects of his article that are spoken in this site and seen as correct when a bisexual male says it, but not if a gay man says it......hence why I posted part of the article to show what I was referring to...... clearly I have over estimated peoples ability to understand what I was referring to....


as for what DD may write or be saying, is her own opinion.. the fact she is my partner, doesn't give any more merit to her post in my eyes and nor does her sexuality..... so I am treating her post the same way that I am treating the article...

if people feel that what he says is wrong, then so be it... but what makes what they say, right?, when they talk about bisexuality and bisexuals, using their own sexuality as a rule of thumb......

[Gearbox]

@Aeon, Fran & LDD - so you three think that we are just looking to be offended when some dick on the net (qualifications aside.:rolleyes:) claims that BISEXUALS are really HOMOSEXUALS that only marry opposite gender for show?

Jesus wept, get a fekin grip!:eek2:

[csrakate]

..... clearly I have over estimated peoples ability to understand what I was referring to....




Clearly you have over-estimated the clarity of your post. Now that you've explained it, it sounds more like some snide attempt on your part to start some trouble. You always take this martyr stance, LDD....but you fail to recognize when you start the slinging. And don't bother saying that you always look at both sides of an issue. That argument got old many, many posts ago.

I don't know what "aspects" you are referring to...the ones that you say are the crux your statement. The issue that you highlighted isn't the one that many take exception to. Did you pay attention to what I said I found offensive? Where on this site is it stated by a bisexual man? I don't believe many bisexual men have ever stated on this site that their wives are only socially attractive to them.....I don't recall seeing a plethora of threads about choosing marriage because it was a good cover for their sexuality. I'd ask you to explain but I have tired of this and I really don't care anymore.

[jamieknyc]

No one has any facts to back up the assertion that bisexual men are not sexually attracted to their wives or girlfriends and are only 'socially' interested in them. Some gay ideologues want to believe that, though, because they have made a life philosophy out of gay identity politics and feel threatened by the idea that the rank and file might meet a woman that they like and drop out.

[tenni]

Pyschology Today has always been on the same level as a comic book compared to great literature or at best a Readers Digest version of any pyschological issue. There is some validity but usually simplfied for lay people. Sometimes extrapolation is not supported by studies researched. Over the years it seems to be devolving and its credibilty reduced by anyone with any understanding/ education or training .

I started a separate thread taking two statements the author suggested for how to cope with "same sex attraction: triggers and fantasies" The author couched the two suggestions by stating that they came from bisexual men themselves. One stated that the bisexual man should fantasise about having sex with men while having intercourse with his wife as a means of a coping mechanism. Does that seem to be a bisexual or a gay man?


I invite you to go to the same sex attraction thread to comment. It is far more likely that the men who might think that fantasising are gay men than bisexual men. That is not to begin the debate here as it may be varying views and deserving it own thread.

[Long Duck Dong]

kate..... once again, I will post what I was fucking referring to...... the statements like this......

How does a bisexual find a life of true love and intimacy with one person? How can a bisexual man have the depth of feeling which comes from sharing everything when no one person can give him what he needs? Lies and deception (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/deception) are very destructive to relationships. That path may be very difficult to navigate and fraught with pain for all involved. The life of a bisexual can be very difficult unless their primary partner provides the support and freedom to allow him or her the chance to experience intimacy with the other sex.

things like that were copied and pasted as they were the crux of my statement.... leaving out things like the social attraction to a wife and the using the marriage as a cover, would have been a good indication that I was not talking about them...... well at least I thought it would have been clear that I was not talking about them......

my point simply was how interesting it is that when a gay male refers to aspects of bisexuality, he is wrong cos he is gay, but when a bisexual does the same thing, its all correct and fine.......
the author walked for a time as a hetero, bisexual and now identifies as gay, does that mean that any and all experiences as a hetero and bi, are invalid cos he ids as a gay man ?......cos if that is the case, then it would invalidate any opinions in the site, by people that have changed sexualities, instead of embracing their understanding as a way of enhancing our own understandings......

sure, some people may read his OPINION as scientific fact and use that as a reference....so be it... it happens..... its how wikipedia became so popular... and why its used at times in the site as a * fact *, not a reference tool......

so once again, I posted a clear opinion, referenced what I was referring to.... it got misread, I get accused of trying to start trouble cos it was misread, and then you talk about asking me to explain myself better ? I have a better idea... put me on ignore, that way you will not feel the need to call me out on things I am not saying....

[Long Duck Dong]

No one has any facts to back up the assertion that bisexual men are not sexually attracted to their wives or girlfriends and are only 'socially' interested in them. Some gay ideologues want to believe that, though, because they have made a life philosophy out of gay identity politics and feel threatened by the idea that the rank and file might meet a woman that they like and drop out.


I know of a couple of guys that do actually have a marriage as a cover and they are not sexually attracted to their wives.... tho its more to do than just sexuality and being socially interested in them... tho i have no doubt that some people do it for sexuality reasons...... and it does raise the question in my mind, of how that may apply to people in marriages where a partner is a transgender person and changes gender during the marriage, the sex ends but the love doesn't, so they stay together......

it comes across to me, like its males that are more gay than bisexual.. but have a emotional connection to the women more than the sexual.....and I am curious as to how it plays out with women that love the emotional connection without having to deal with the sexual aspect, but the article doesn't mention women in that aspect.....and it reminds me of the * gay males make better husbands than straight males * statement I have heard over the years.... something that I have heard very lil evidence to support other than personal statements and experiences, and they are few and far between

[darkeyes]

@Aeon, Fran & LDD - so you three think that we are just looking to be offended when some dick on the net (qualifications aside.:rolleyes:) claims that BISEXUALS are really HOMOSEXUALS that only marry opposite gender for show?

Jesus wept, get a fekin grip!:eek2:
I commented on 1 aspect of Joan's post.. no more than that.. don't take that as my view of bisexual sexuality.. u know how I feel on that subject and don't think Joan was saying what u think she was saying either.. what Duckie was saying is anyone's guess... so nip in shower and cool down ya daft lummox..:kiss:

[tenni]

The question has been raised when or why is it appropriate for a gay man to comment on bisexual men and the qualifications of the author.

In my opinion, a gay man is walking on thin ice to comment on bisexual men. In the author's case he has qualification as a pyschiatrist. We need to weigh his statements carefully. He has made statements that some bisexuals will support. He has published other statements that seem to apply to gay men..not men who may fall closer to same sex attraction. By referring to his statements without a qualifier, he lowers his credibility with these statments in the article. His thoughts come across to some bisexuals as biased and a gay man's thoughts. He give no credible reference. His support material seems clearly to me to not be dealing with what bisexual men speak about. If bisexual men question his ideas and we do not identify what credibility does he have?

Dark Aeon has posted her negative bias about bimen. Just like Bi Virg, they are seen as hostile toward bimen..whether that is due to biphbia from bisexual women is debatable. Neither are pro supportive for bimen.

[jamieknyc]

You're talking about gay men who are married to women. Not the same as a bisexual man.

[darkeyes]

dark Joan has shown her rejection of bimen. All of her opinion reflect her biphobia. ..and u know exactly what I think of that statement, tenni.. she neither dismisses that bisexual men exist nor does she condemn them and she does not dismiss them from her life as friends and acquaintances as far as I am aware.. she has made a calculated decision based upon her own understanding of the world about one aspect of her relationships with bisexual men.. that does not make her biphobic.. neither does the fact that she thinks differently about the issue than u...

[tenni]

dark Im typing on my tablet again. I revised my statement while you were writing. I think that we disagree about the meanings of both biphobia and Bi Invisibilty bi erasure. I think that a woman may socialize with bimen and still have an aversion to having a sexual relationship with ANY bisexual man. That's biphopia imo. This however th7is off topic of this thread.

Maybe I missed Aeon's points where she specifically stated what she agreed or disagreed with the author. I read her vague references to agreeing and disagreeing (plus her usual plea for someone of her intelligence level to post something that she deems intelligent:):suave:)

[darkeyes]

dark Im typing on my tablet again. I revised my statement while you were writing. I think that we disagree about the meanings of both biphobia and Bi Invisibilty bi erasure. I think that a woman may socialize with bimen and still have an aversion to having a sexual relationship with ANY bisexual man. That's biphopia imo. This however th7is off topic of this thread.

Maybe I missed Aeon's points where she specifically stated what she agreed or disagreed with the author. I read her vague references to agreeing and disagreeing (plus her usual plea for someone of her intelligence level to post something that she deems intelligent:):suave:)We will never agree on this u and I and we have gone round the houses with it more than once.. I have an aversion to sex with bi-men.. also men per se... my reasoning may be different in that I just don't fancy men but I don't see it as any different... I have also always had an aversion to casual sex with married men and married women for that matter.. but I am no more phobic about them or marriage than is Joan about bisexual men.. as it happens I don't agree with her reasoning but neither do I think that reasoning to be biphobic..

..and I told u once to ditch that bloody tablet... u would be as well using a slab of butter tablet as one of those damn things... as to Joan and her intelligence and her pleas, she does have a certain element of intellectual snobbery within her and no mistake and uses what she deems her intellectual superiority in way which is dismissive of and insensitive to the feelings of other people, but that is something I'm afraid we shall have to live with but it neither diminishes or indeed strengthens her arguments neither does it make her biphobic if we ignore her style and concentrate on content... sadly, far too many have their hackles up and so often Joan's perfectly valid arguments are lost as some are blinded by dislike and peevishness..

[Gearbox]

I commented on 1 aspect of Joan's post.. no more than that.. don't take that as my view of bisexual sexuality.. u know how I feel on that subject and don't think Joan was saying what u think she was saying either.. what Duckie was saying is anyone's guess... so nip in shower and cool down ya daft lummox..:kiss:
Aeon is saying that the authors sexuality is the reason for him being pished. LDD is saying the same. In fact, it's what he says about bisexuals that is being disputed, as the little detail of bisexuals not actually existing. Now call me silly, blame it on the nicotine withdrawal symptoms......but isn't that something a bisexual AND the partners of bisexuals would dispute?
His homosexuality and his use of hetero and bi titles is being blamed for his view if bisexuality. He has as much experience and insight of being a bisexual as I have of period pains and childbirth. And despite what Aeon may think, no amount of phd's and letters after his name will change that fact. He NEEDS to rely on GENUINE bisexuals for that, and not his own experience.

LDD as we ALL know is doing his old martyr act again. He puts an irrelevant dud post in a thread, which he diverts 'victim-ship' to the 'guilty party', but eventually sucks it all up for himself personally. So very predictable I could write the script.lol

What really interests me is HOW bisexuals get called all kinds of bolox for claiming biphobia, bi-erasure etc, when it's explained why that is. Of course many homosexuals and heterosexuals are not likely to understand a bisexuality, so will have probs with it. THAT is understandable and hopefully workable. BUT when a homosexual claims there are no bisexuals that's just damned insulting. Same goes for hetero's and other bisexuals (such as Bisexual Virgin...wtf?).

Yes this may seem petty. Who cares what some gay author writes about bi's? BUT this thread is based on the false impression he gave. It's a thread on a bisexual site, where people come in the hope to get honest information from bisexuals and those who understand bisexuality about bisexuals.
So it's not petty really! It's pretty important that we DO point out the bs. Otherwise Drew would have to rename the site BULLSHITTINGHOMO.COM.:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

Yeah instead she is just highly biphobic, pozphobic, and even homophobic since she thinks that we bisexual men are mostly all HIV+, that if we're poz we lie about it, and want to infect others by intentionally not having safer sex with our sexual partners. But hetero men can't be HIV+, don't lie about being poz, and are perfect saints in her mind! ;) In reality Joan is no better than Rick Santorum, the Bachmanns, or Rev. Fred Phelps when it comes to being a bigot towards bisexual men.
Click.. click.. click..click..click..click...

[IanBorthwick]

Fran, honestly dear...what's the difference between a conscious decision to discriminate based on one false detail and a knee-jerk one based on irrational data? About as much difference as there is between a duck with with yellow feathers and a duck with heather colored ones. It's still a duck.

[tenni]

We will never agree on this u and I and we have gone round the houses with it more than once.. I have an aversion to sex with bi-men.. also men per se... my reasoning may be different in that I just don't fancy men but I don't see it as any different... I have also always had an aversion to casual sex with married men and married women for that matter.. but I am no more phobic about them or marriage than is Joan about bisexual men.. as it happens I don't agree with her reasoning but neither do I think that reasoning to be biphobic..

..and I told u once to ditch that bloody tablet... u would be as well using a slab of butter tablet as one of those damn things... as to Joan and her intelligence and her pleas, she does have a certain element of intellectual snobbery within her and no mistake and uses what she deems her intellectual superiority in way which is dismissive of and insensitive to the feelings of other people, but that is something I'm afraid we shall have to live with but it neither diminishes or indeed strengthens her arguments neither does it make her biphobic if we ignore her style and concentrate on content... sadly, far too many have their hackles up and so often Joan's perfectly valid arguments are lost as some are blinded by dislike and peevishness..

Dark
Oh, Happy Days(background choir repeats) OH, Haapy Daays..etc.
I've got my beloved mac laptop back from the shop where it had to go to get defrag, verified, repair etc. I've a new condom over the keys board (keep crumbs out) and it fits so well. Piss Off tablet. ;) Oh, no I will use my tablet again. (feels and hears fan reving up not a good sign). It was an emergency. Tablets have their place in this world just as lesbians and biguys.. :):bibounce::three:

Now, where were we?:confused:
Ah, yes the difference between you and Aeon. Hmm Fran babes (watches fran run and put on a short wig..changing clothes in to sloppy clothes). You are a lesbian and it is perfectly understandable that you would not want to have sex with a biguy or hetero guy. However, we have one of our own (so she says) bisexuals taking the position that she will have sex with hetero men but not bisexual men. She could try to have sex with gay guys(but they are disease infested too like bi guys). They would probably no more agree to have sex with a bi woman than you as a lesbian might agree to have sex with a hetero or biguy. :) ;)

No, sweetheart your admiration of Aeon is sadly misplaced. But as you wrote...we may never agree. Still likes ya babes :)

Now, what specifically did Aeon find acceptable in the write up and what "specifically" did she object to? An intelligent articulate person would be more specific?
doncha think? ;) ...........**chews on tabaci and spits only like ALL byguys cuz we are ALL disease infested(ha ha ). That's not to write that those that chew tabacco are disease infested either..just being silly.

[tenni]

post 64

"LDD as we ALL know is doing his old martyr act again. He puts an irrelevant dud post in a thread, which he diverts 'victim-ship' to the 'guilty party', but eventually sucks it all up for himself personally. So very predictable I could write the script.lol

What really interests me is HOW bisexuals get called all kinds of bolox for claiming biphobia, bi-erasure etc, when it's explained why that is. Of course many homosexuals and heterosexuals are not likely to understand a bisexuality, so will have probs with it. THAT is understandable and hopefully workable. BUT when a homosexual claims there are no bisexuals that's just damned insulting. Same goes for hetero's and other bisexuals (such as Bisexual Virgin...wtf?)."

Yep...the martyr role again. :(

Yes, there are certain posters(not one sexual bisexual man does though) who tend to deny biophobia on this site. They accuse bisexual men of twisting things to their "own agenda". Damn those bisexual men talking that way on a bisexual web site. We are suppose to shut up and accept what two homosexual psychiatrists write under the title of bisexual reporting because they have credentials..and no bias.

[darkeyes]

Admiration is maybe a lil bit strong *laffs*.. but admiration or not... whoever a person is I don't like to see them accused of things which I believe are wrong or unfailry treated in any way... and have stuck up for u and Duckie just as I have for her and others for much the same reason... that's just me I'm afraid...

Butter tablet has its place in this world.. spesh Kate's and me mum's.. in mine own and the kids tums in partic tho not too much cos its bad for booty size... mine is ok but I do bow 2 those whose tablet is a confectionary work of culinary genius...

o yea.. almost forgot soz .. like u an all bugger lugs... even if ya do talk dross at least 50% of the time...;)

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Sigh. Clash of the Opinions again I see. Both Vuli and Tenni have good valid points. (OMG Ive actually agreeed with Tenni-Dumpling on something. There goes hell again...)
You each have your opinion, if you disagree, then how bout taking it off board to duke it out personally? That way the rest of us can get back to the OP's thesis statements? We all have our own opinions, lets respect that. We dont have to like it, but at least show some respect and act like adults. Agree to disagree and be done with it already.
Cat

[Vuillardgr]

Sigh. Clash of the Opinions again I see. Both Vuli and Tenni have good valid points. (OMG Ive actually agreeed with Tenni-Dumpling on something. There goes hell again...)
You each have your opinion, if you disagree, then how bout taking it off board to duke it out personally? That way the rest of us can get back to the OP's thesis statements? We all have our own opinions, lets respect that. We dont have to like it, but at least show some respect and act like adults. Agree to disagree and be done with it already.
Cat


It isn't my intent to fight with anyone or chastise someone for their point of view. When someone gets aggressive with me because they don't agree with me. Then I push back. I am enjoying reading everyone's post no matter what their opinion is and in case you haven't noticed, I've stopped with the bickering .

[Rhevan]

Okay my two cents and I don't really care who likes it or doesn't, it is MY opinion, must like the article posted was someone's OPINION. Being bisexual is not any more a messy reality than any other sexuality, we still have to face choices every day in what we do and say. The article does make some valid points but it is restricted in that it only talked about a certain specific group's difficulties. The most valid point the author makes is that bisexuality is not easily defined no matter who tries to label us. There are so many variables in being bisexual and attractions can fluctuate wildly from day to day.

What I question is why anyone is just dismissing the article based on the sexuality of the author and not on the opinion he poses, yet we are the first to claim we are discriminated against because of our sexuality. It's a shame really. Aeon has asked you all to point out exactly what problem you have with the article that is not the sexuality of the author... I'm asking the same. Perhaps someone will actually answer the question instead of starting another biphobia rant.

Rhevan

[12voltman59]

It always gets me that one of the raps about bisexuals is that we are somehow more likely to go and dump a spouse or partner than is a gay partner or heterosexual one----it doesn't matter the sexual orientation of a person on whether they are more or less likely to cheat on a partner---it matters what the quality of their character is and whether they allow "the little head" to rule over their big one.

Jeez--I just had another hetero friend who has been cheating on his wife for the past few years and she finally had enough and kicked him out of the house earlier this week because he was spending more of his free time with a lady other than his wife--and I say good to my female neighbor for kicking him out----I cannot begin to count how many of my heterosexual friends, co-workers, family members, acquaintances, etc of both sexes have cheated on their significant others---probably a "preponderance" of the heterosexual people I know in my life have cheated--so cannot I not be sort of correct in saying "those damn heteros---you just cannot trust them!!!" ?????

Bisexuals are no less more or less prone to "stepping out" on their partners than are those of other sexual orientations---I get so damn sick of hearing that we bisexuals are supposed to be such slut dogs.

[BiDaveDtown]

That way the rest of us can get back to the OP's thesis statements? Thesis statement? What is she a high school student writing an argumentative essay titled How to be a biphobic heterosexual woman?

[æonpax]

Okay my two cents and I don't really care who likes it or doesn't, it is MY opinion, must like the article posted was someone's OPINION. Being bisexual is not any more a messy reality than any other sexuality, we still have to face choices every day in what we do and say. The article does make some valid points but it is restricted in that it only talked about a certain specific group's difficulties. The most valid point the author makes is that bisexuality is not easily defined no matter who tries to label us. There are so many variables in being bisexual and attractions can fluctuate wildly from day to day.

What I question is why anyone is just dismissing the article based on the sexuality of the author and not on the opinion he poses, yet we are the first to claim we are discriminated against because of our sexuality. It's a shame really. Aeon has asked you all to point out exactly what problem you have with the article that is not the sexuality of the author... I'm asking the same. Perhaps someone will actually answer the question instead of starting another biphobia rant.

Rhevan

1
You hit the nail on the head. Sadly, there is a very, very small but cacophonies group of men here with their own agenda's. Some are misogynistic, but all of them appear as not to have developed critical thinking skills to the level where discussions, many controversial, can be held in an adult and civil way. In my case, the lioness does not concern herself with the fleas.

I did a little research on this exact same article and found some remarkably persuasive and articulate discussion on this exact same topic. It happens to be on the "Psychology Today" discussion forum and the author of that article, Dr. Loren A. Olson, replied to personally. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments.

I still don't agree with some aspects of what he wrote but I cannot fault his reasoning.

[BiDaveDtown]

1 You hit the nail on the head. Sadly, there is a very, very small but cacophonies group of men here with their own agenda's. Some are misogynistic, but all of them appear as not to have developed critical thinking skills to the level where discussions, many controversial, can be held in an adult and civil way. In my case, the lioness does not concern herself with the fleas. I did a little research on this exact same article and found some remarkably persuasive and articulate discussion on this exact same topic. It happens to be on the "Psychology Today" discussion forum and the author of that article, Dr. Loren A. Olson, replied to personally. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments. I still don't agree with some aspects of what he wrote but I cannot fault his reasoning. His reasoning is that of a gay man that's biphobic but this is all way too common among gay men. You can go on and on about how you think that men here are "misogynistic" but you're a highly misandrist woman, have no interest in debating, discussing, or being civil, and instead just want to spread your own biphobic agendas about bisexual men.

[æonpax]

It always gets me that one of the raps about bisexuals is that we are somehow more likely to go and dump a spouse or partner than is a gay partner or heterosexual one----it doesn't matter the sexual orientation of a person on whether they are more or less likely to cheat on a partner---it matters what the quality of their character is and whether they allow "the little head" to rule over their big one.

Jeez--I just had another hetero friend who has been cheating on his wife for the past few years and she finally had enough and kicked him out of the house earlier this week because he was spending more of his free time with a lady other than his wife--and I say good to my female neighbor for kicking him out----I cannot begin to count how many of my heterosexual friends, co-workers, family members, acquaintances, etc of both sexes have cheated on their significant others---probably a "preponderance" of the heterosexual people I know in my life have cheated--so cannot I not be sort of correct in saying "those damn heteros---you just cannot trust them!!!" ?????

Bisexuals are no less more or less prone to "stepping out" on their partners than are those of other sexual orientations---I get so damn sick of hearing that we bisexuals are supposed to be such slut dogs.
`

I don't think the author said what you are stating. If you feel he did, could you point out the exact statement? In the PT comments forum ( http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments ) which I quoted above, I read the objections many readers had with his essay and not a single one...not a one, brought up this or the topic of him being gay writing about bisexuality, as an issue.

I'm beginning to think that it's only this forum that had a few drama kings or attention whores that manufacture false issues to get enraged about....present company excluded.

There is still a great amount of unknown facets to the bisexual community and greater understand cannot be achieved when communications get embroiled in misunderstanding, as evidenced in this thread.

[tenni]

`

I don't think the author said what you are stating. If you feel he did, could you point out the exact statement? In the PT comments forum ( http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments ) which I quoted above, I read the objections many readers had with his essay and not a single one...not a one, brought up this or the topic of him being gay writing about bisexuality, as an issue.

I'm beginning to think that it's only this forum that had a few drama kings or attention whores that manufacture false issues to get enraged about....present company excluded.
.

Sweatheart
Did you read the first comment under the article? It seems to mirror complaints by bimen who posted on this site.

Submitted by Julia on July 5, 2011 - 5:59pm. ( I just realized that this article is more than a year old.)
I really think you need to be more familiar with a topic before posting about it. This article seems so focused on what I assume is your experience of briefly identifying as bi.

To point out a few of the largest issues I noticed:
"In a culture that still values monogamy as the ideal in relationships, it is hard to get past the issue that all bisexuals who act on their sexual attraction are guilty of infidelity." Acting on any attractions other than for a partner is infidelity, it has nothing to do with being bisexual. A gay, straight or lesbian person acting on an attraction outside their relationship is also infidelity. A bi person is equally capable as gay, lesbian or straight people of controlling their actions based on their sexual attractions and being happy.
"How can a bisexual man have the depth of feeling which comes from sharing everything when no one person can give him what he needs?" Just because someone has an attraction does not mean they need it. You can still be close and share your thoughts and who you are even if you attracted to people different than your partner. You are making it sound like bi people have shallow relationship here and it is a little insulting.

Here is another just a few comments down.

"Submitted by Estraven2 on July 6, 2011 - 8:03pm.
........... There is so much misinformation here, that has already been debunked so many times in so many places, that I am shocked that Psychology Today would even publish this. Don't they edit things any more?

I'm going straight to complaining to the editors; this is basically hate speech."

"Submitted by Atiq Zabinski on July 7, 2011 - 4:09am.
I am astounded to see a piece as ill-informed as this published in the year 2011. "

"I still don't agree with some aspects of what he wrote but I cannot fault his reasoning."
Julia faults his reasoning but you do not?
What aspects don't you agree with again? You seem to make vague references but no specifics over and over.


It is a shame that the OP didn't read the comments (ie Hate speech) before posting this article on this site.


"Hate Speech" darkeyes...hmm Does that tell you that some people see this article as an example of Bi erasure..bi men are really just gay men etc.?

[BiDaveDtown]

` I don't think the author said what you are stating. If you feel he did, could you point out the exact statement? In the PT comments forum ( http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments ) which I quoted above, I read the objections many readers had with his essay and not a single one...not a one, brought up this or the topic of him being gay writing about bisexuality, as an issue. I'm beginning to think that it's only this forum that had a few drama kings or attention whores that manufacture false issues to get enraged about....present company excluded. There is still a great amount of unknown facets to the bisexual community and greater understand cannot be achieved when communications get embroiled in misunderstanding, as evidenced in this thread. You clearly did not read any or all of the comments on that article: How do you know what being bisexual feels like if you are gay? Submitted by Anonymous on July 29, 2012 - 8:11pm. How can you say that I am fooling myself about being attracted to women when I become heavily aroused at the sight of sexy women all the time? And in the next moment I might have some attraction to a man, so what? Why the need to label? I personally don't want to cry out to the world anything about my sexuality because I'll look like a sex addict or freak. I will have sex with either sex! If it makes you happy why don't I say I'm gay when I'm attracted to men or having gay sex, and straight when I'm attracted to or having sex with women? What if I want to have sex with a man and a woman at the same time? What does that get labeled? Crazy, it's a simple and despite what you say it is a fairly exact description and label - bisexual. Attracted to both sexes.

[BiDaveDtown]

` I'm beginning to think that it's only this forum that had a few drama kings or attention whores that manufacture false issues to get enraged about....present company excluded. There is still a great amount of unknown facets to the bisexual community and greater understand cannot be achieved when communications get embroiled in misunderstanding, as evidenced in this thread.[/FONT][/SIZE] Please, you're one of the biggest drama queens on this site. With posts that show your own personal biphobia and how little you actually understand about HIV, and safer sex. Greater understanding of bisexuals cannot happen when we have a bisexual person such as yourself still clinging onto biphobic myths and spreading them as fact, such as the "Bisexual men get infected via gay men and spread HIV to women!" BS that you posted that we bisexual men heard enough of in the mid 80s when HIV/AIDS was new. Face it darling, you're biphobic and bigoted.

[DuckiesDarling]

guys guys guys remember rule 2, flame the idea not the poster

[æonpax]

Sweatheart
Did you read the first comment under the article? It seems to mirror complaints by bimen who posted on this site.


The year it was written is irrelevant. Now can you be a handy little man and post Dr Loren's reply to that question or do you want me to do it? Never mind, I'll do it.




Men who have sex with men (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/finally-out/201107/the-messy-realities-bisexuality/comments#comment-168033)
Submitted by Loren A Olson (http://www.finallyoutbook.com) on July 5, 2011 - 8:32pm.

You are correct that this is my story, but is the story of untold numbers of other men who are hidden from view. The Centers for Disease Control estimates that about 7 percent of men have sex with men although only about 4 percent self-identify as gay. Extrapolating from those estimates, about 3 percent of men have sex with men but do not identify as gay.

I have spoken with countless numbers of these men whose attraction is to men, whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone.

To understand the public health risks, the separation of people into the only four categories of L and G and B and T is far too narrow and simplistic and does not allow for scientific study.

I have no argument with those who declare themselves bisexual and feel congruence between their attractions, behaviors and identity. Sadly, a lot of men (I have not studied women) do not experience that sense of peace.

[BiDaveDtown]

Here's another comment on the biphobic article. One person commented saying how the article is hate speech and I agree. Wow i am shoked psychology Submitted by Anonymous on December 6, 2011 - 3:09am. Wow i am shocked psychology today poted such a STUPID(for lack of a beter word) article! Is this a professional?! This sounds to me like some antiquated gay guy who(like many many gay guyss(specialy old ones)) just thinks theres no such thing as bisexuality...that its just your gay your just too scared to come out so your going to pretend like you like girls. Gay guys like this so called professional is exactly why i have verrry few gay friends! Let me help you out a bit doc...bisexuals just like people! Boy, girl, whatever! Bisexuality does NOT mean you're a slut, liar, confused, unable to find happiness, or doomed to be alone because no 1 person can satisfy your need. This is the dumbest piece of writing i think ive ever read...i can seriously go on and on about why this articleshouldnt even be published. But i wont. I will end this by saing I am a bisexual young adult who is currently in a committed monogamous relationship with another man, i was in a committed relationship with a man and a woman prior to this one and also have been exclusive to girls. Upon meeting someone i tell them i a bisexual and i identify more with polyamory. My boyfriend is also bisexual but unlike me would even entertain the though of polyamory!

[BiDaveDtown]

guys guys guys remember rule 2, flame the idea not the poster OK I will keep that in mind. :)

[tenni]

Post 85
"whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone."

Uh, could it be that these people whose behaviour is bisexual are really gay and not bisexual?

His premise of determining bisexuality and bisexual men is disputed. Yes, these men experience a lot of emotional pain and feel isolated and alone. So do men whose behaviour is bisexual and they identify as bisexual. They actually like sex with women and lust after both men and women. They experience emotional pain and feel isolated and lone especially with this type of bull roar being published in a magazine purporting to have validity. Big difference imo. The shrink is gay and thinks any man who has sex with men is also gay too.

The year is relevant to why this article was published on a bisexual site. It is not new and just off the press. Many have disputed the article's validity and yet it was posted on a bisexual site to get what people here think....and help a "friend"

What's the definition of a troll again?

[BiDaveDtown]

It is not new and just off the press. Many have disputed the article's validity and yet it was posted on a bisexual site to get what people here think....and help a "friend" What's the definition of a troll again? Well said. I'm also wondering why the OP posted the article?

[æonpax]

Post 85
"whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone."

Uh, could it be that these people whose behaviour is bisexual are really gay and not bisexual?

His premise of determining bisexuality and bisexual men is disputed. Yes, these men experience a lot of emotional pain and feel isolated and alone. So do men whose behaviour is bisexual and they identify as bisexual. They actually like sex with women and lust after both men and women. They experience emotional pain and feel isolated and lone especially with this type of bull roar being published in a magazine purporting to have validity. Big difference imo. The shrink is gay and thinks any man who has sex with men is also gay too.

The year is relevant to why this article was published on a bisexual site. It is not new and just off the press. Many have disputed the article's validity and yet it was posted on a bisexual site to get what people here think....and help a "friend"

What's the definition of a troll again?


I see. You just cannot admit you are wrong...not that you should but again, you contort words and their semantics to fit your own skewed view of the world. Anything outside your perspective is false, ergo wrong and in your myopic world, biphobic.

Truth or should I say facts, are not dated. The topic is relevant then (2011) as it is now.

This particular article has been discussed in bisexual sites, particularly male sites. Here is one particular site called "The Enlightened Male", which I occasionally scan and which no doubt you've never heard of. I took the liberty of linking directly to what was written. The poster here does not agree with the article but I find his response a refreshing and intelligent difference to some the the self-serving drivel I've seen the "Usual Suspects" post in regards to this article.

http://enlightenedmale2000.com/2011/07/

May I remind you, it was you who took this discussion off track, with your attack on the OP, rather than the article or it's message.

[Vuillardgr]

I see. You just cannot admit you are wrong...not that you should but again, you contort words and their semantics to fit your own skewed view of the world. Anything outside your perspective is false, ergo wrong and in your myopic world, biphobic.

Truth or should I say facts, are not dated. The topic is relevant then (2011) as it is now.

This particular article has been discussed in bisexual sites, particularly male sites. Here is one particular site called "The Enlightened Male", which I occasionally scan and which no doubt you've never heard of. I took the liberty of linking directly to what was written. The poster here does not agree with the article but I find his response a refreshing and intelligent difference to some the the self-serving drivel I've seen the "Usual Suspects" post in regards to this article.

http://enlightenedmale2000.com/2011/07/

May I remind you, it was you who took this discussion off track, with your attack on the OP, rather than the article or it's message.


Thankyou, exactly, and well said.

[void()]

It is an article expressing the opinion of someone. No one has to agree, or disagree with that opinion. I disagree based upon personal experience. My opinion is different from that person's opinion. So what? People can have different opinions, ideas, beliefs. If we did not the world would be rather dull. No one has to agree, disagree with my opinion either.

[æonpax]

It is an article expressing the opinion of someone. No one has to agree, or disagree with that opinion. I disagree based upon personal experience. My opinion is different from that person's opinion. So what? People can have different opinions, ideas, beliefs. If we did not the world would be rather dull. No one has to agree, disagree with my opinion either.

Consider this from Dr Loren’s response;


a) “The Centers for Disease Control estimates that about 7 percent of men have sex with men although only about 4 percent self-identify as gay. Extrapolating from those estimates, about 3 percent of men have sex with men but do not identify as gay."

b) "I have spoken with countless numbers of these men whose attraction is to men, whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone.”



a) – What he is saying is that there is an inherent ambiguity between identifying one’s self as being a Gay and/or a Bisexual male, in this case. The same sexual ambiguity exists with females but that’s not the topic here.

I agree. If one is referring to the accepted concept of heterosexual–homosexual continuum (also referred to as the sexual orientation continuum) there exists a vast gray area where both homo and heterosexual cannot be defined. Dr Loren is doing nothing more that pointing that gray area out. This is an area where great tolerance and empathic understanding is required.

Having an opinion is wonderful and very common. Having an insightful, non-judgmental opinion is…quite rare.


b) – I understand the concept of “being alone.” As I live with three very unique and very attention demanding daughters, each to their own degree, I am never truly alone in that sense. But if I incorporate my “lifestyle” and “orientation” with my loving familial obligations, I feel alone. Few have the capability of grasping the abstractions I embrace.

Unfortunately, there are many men caught up in that same sexual abstraction, but for different reasons. Still, the pain of being alone not because of ambiguity, but by being judged by those who have ingrained ideologies; remains the same.

Synopsis – Our entire existence is imperfect. Try to live with it.

[void()]

1. Having an opinion is wonderful and very common. Having an insightful, non-judgmental opinion is…quite rare.
2. Our entire existence is imperfect. Try to live with it.


1. Thank you for proving out my point with another opinion. Insight can be subjective. What you consider insightful, I may consider ludicrously obvious.

2. Existence is imperfect? Could it be that in perfection existence allows for imperfection? You cannot have one without the other. As for living with it, been muddling through so far, doubt that changes. For other examples of binary ideology see light and dark, life and death, night and day. Pretty clear we need both to have either one. Just is what it is.

[Gearbox]

a) “The Centers for Disease Control estimates that about 7 percent of men have sex with men although only about 4 percent self-identify as gay. Extrapolating from those estimates, about 3 percent of men have sex with men but do not identify as gay."

b) "I have spoken with countless numbers of these men whose attraction is to men, whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone.”


So here's what that reads like to somebody who doesn't just assume that Dr Loren is talking sense, but tries to make sense out of what he actually says:

A- Not ALL men who have sex with men identify as gay. 3% of them do not identify as gay.
B- He has spoken to loads of men who's SINGULAR attraction is to men, but behave like bisexuals (are in M/F relationships) and would like to ADMIT that they are gay.

So in ('A') Dr Loren poses a problem with men who don't identify as gay/homosexual yet have m-m sex: Where are they?
In ('B') Dr Loren has found that curious 3% of men who are just not ready to come out as gay. They are married to women and probably claim to be bi.:tongue:

Sometimes opinions are just really stupid.;)

[The Bisexual Virgin]

So here's what that reads like to somebody who doesn't just assume that Dr Loren is talking sense, but tries to make sense out of what he actually says:

A- Not ALL men who have sex with men identify as gay. 3% of them do not identify as gay.
B- He has spoken to loads of men who's SINGULAR attraction is to men, but behave like bisexuals (are in M/F relationships) and would like to ADMIT that they are gay.

So in ('A') Dr Loren poses a problem with men who don't identify as gay/homosexual yet have m-m sex: Where are they?
In ('B') Dr Loren has found that curious 3% of men who are just not ready to come out as gay. They are married to women and probably claim to be bi.:tongue:

Sometimes opinions are just really stupid.;)

Thats a scary number.

This is the exact reason why people strongly doubt the existence of bisexual men. And you basically stated very bluntly what I said about bisexual men only wanting women for social things. At first I thought it was a lie, when a gay guy told me there is no such thing as a straight man, but living life a little at the age of 24 on the 25th, encountering strange men,reading stories on the web, knowing my brother-in-law:eek2:, I am starting to somewhat believe him.

[Gearbox]

Thats a scary number.

This is the exact reason why people strongly doubt the existence of bisexual men. And you basically stated very bluntly what I said about bisexual men only wanting women for social things. At first I thought it was a lie, when a gay guy told me there is no such thing as a straight man, but living life a little at the age of 24 on the 25th, encountering strange men,reading stories on the web, knowing my brother-in-law:eek2:, I am starting to somewhat believe him.
LOL! No, I wasn't saying that it's true.:tongue: Being a Dr doesn't mean you can't be wrong etc.

You should really NOT just believe what a gay man says about a straight man. Nor what he'd say about a bi man either.
Some gays, think the world is gay. Some bi's think the world is bi. Some hetero's think the world is hetero etc etc
Sometimes, some can't get it into their head that what they think, isn't what actually is.

[tenni]

I think that I will agree to disagree with Aeon. Aeon stated that no one posted similar criticisms of the Dr. in Psychology Today as were being made on this site. I posted several and Aeon changed tactics by referring to his response which is also disputed by many bisexual men on this site.

Who seems to support this man's opinion about bisexual men being only interested in women for non sexual reasons and really want to be identifying as gay but have bisexual behaviour?
Aeon?
Vuil ?
Bi Virg

Which women do not seem to support the belief about bisexual men only wanting women partners for non sexual reasons and a cover up of wanting to identify as gay?
Cskate
DD

Which bimen support his statements about bisexual men want to identify as gay but show bisexual behaviour?
Not me
Not Jamie
Not Gear
Not Bi Dave
Not Drugstore
Not FunE1
Not Ex Sailor

Void (not sure as he refers to it as on person's opinion which it is)?

Post 90
"May I remind you, it was you who took this discussion off track, with your attack on the OP, rather than the article or it's message."
What post did I attack the OP Aeon?
post 3 by me?
Post 9 by me?
In post 10 Vuil introduces an issue about who this site is for that has nothing to do with the thread topic.
Post 12 by me?
Post 13 Vuil attacks me referring to "an agenda and bullying? having a skewed version(maybe a bisexual version?) mean self-obsessed diatribe".
This seems like a personal attack to me.
In post 15 I report her stalking and trying to attack me on a different bisexual male site. That is what she did and admits to part of it.

[Vuillardgr]

Tenni

All of my issues dealt with the thread topic. It is your MO to go off topic in your attempt to cause drama and trouble.

As for me trying to attack you on a different site... what proof do you have? I haven't even posted anything on any other bisexual site. I'm actually laughing. LMAO What else can that brain of yours imagine?

The bullying aspect...well, everyone can see that. You are the stalker. No one's post is safe from your taint. You spew lies and your own twisted agenda everyday on nearly every post there is to read. Why ? Why do you feel the need to control and strong arm people if they even give a hint that they may oppose your way of thinking?

Look at what you are doing? I stopped the squabble with you and you still insist on holding strong to your bullshit and attack me and others. Another sign of stalker activity.

Why don't you put me on ignore. We won't have to have any more dealings with each other. But rest assured, I'm not going anywhere and I urge any and all who have had difficulties with you, and there seem to be many, to remain as well. Your obvious need to push others off this site that doesn't agree with you isn't nearly as strong as my need to stay and exchange ideas. Save your energy and believe what I am telling you.

So, if anyone wants to discuss the article as it is and relay thoughts, I'd like to continue. If you are looking for trouble, please go scratch at another door.

[æonpax]

{inconsequential}

Give it a rest already.

[æonpax]

LOL! No, I wasn't saying that it's true.:tongue: Being a Dr doesn't mean you can't be wrong etc.

a) You should really NOT just believe what a gay man says about a straight man. Nor what he'd say about a bi man either.
b) Some gays, think the world is gay. Some bi's think the world is bi. Some hetero's think the world is hetero etc etc
c) Sometimes, some can't get it into their head that what they think, isn't what actually is.

a) Wow. Following that logic, one should only believe things that come from groupings you identify with. Don't believe what blacks say about whites, what atheists say about Christians, what Chinese say about Polish, etc, etc, because they're not like you. Now that's scary.

b) ...and many don't. What's the point?

c) What does all this mean? Before I guess and say you are attempting unqualify a Doctor because he says things you don't like or agree with, I'd rather you say it.

[darkeyes]

a) Wow. Following that logic, one should only believe things that come from groupings you identify with. Don't believe what blacks say about whites, what atheists say about Christians, what Chinese say about Polish, etc, etc, because they're not like you. Now that's scary.

b) ...and many don't. What's the point?

c) What does all this mean? Before I guess and say you are attempting unqualify a Doctor because he says things you don't like or agree with, I'd rather you say it.
..and by the same token, what bi men say about gay men.. or other bi men or women or h... forget it...come to think of it.. what any of us say about anyone else....,the Doc may or may not be dopey and wrong, but he is no more dopey and wrong or right than many of the things I have read in these pages over time...

...to dismiss what anyone says because they are different and speak differently is at least as prejudiced and blinkered, and arguably more phobic than any of those who have been so badly slated by mainstream bisexual thought in this and other threads.. they are the statements of closed minds and if I may borrow and employ a term from the theatre of a more general political scene, bisexual "little Englanders"...

[æonpax]

1. Thank you for proving out my point with another opinion. Insight can be subjective. What you consider insightful, I may consider ludicrously obvious.

2. Existence is imperfect? Could it be that in perfection existence allows for imperfection? You cannot have one without the other. As for living with it, been muddling through so far, doubt that changes. For other examples of binary ideology see light and dark, life and death, night and day. Pretty clear we need both to have either one. Just is what it is.

1. I should have been more clear. That was a rhetorical statement.

2. I said "Our entire existence is imperfect" meaning "human existence." Unless you can prove us humans are not flawed, then it stands. "Existence", as in the omniverse, is a different concept altogether and an interesting one at that.

Since you brought up "binary ideology", to go off topic for a second, there is no such thing as infinite (as in numbers) or eternity (as in time). It's just that us flawed humans cannot comprehend such vast quantum concepts....in a "binary system", which is inherently closed.
`

[æonpax]

..and by the same token, what bi men say about gay men.. or other bi men or women or h... forget it...come to think of it.. what any of us say about anyone else....,the Doc may or may not be dopey and wrong, but he is no more dopey and wrong or right than many of the things I have read in these pages over time...

...to dismiss what anyone says because they are different and speak differently is at least as prejudiced and blinkered, and arguably more phobic than any of those who have been so badly slated by mainstream bisexual thought in this and other threads.. they are the statements of closed minds and if I may borrow and employ a term from the theatre of a more general political scene, bisexual "little Englanders"...

`
I have disagreements all the time with experts and professionals. In this case, it is perfectly legitimate to disagree with Dr Loren's treatise. He admitted himself that there would be disagreements on it. But to dismiss what he wrote, simply becuase he's not bisexual, is ludicrous. That's my point. Should I only go to see female doctors becuase male doctors are not like me?

What I do agree with is that there is a lot about bisexuals, that is still unknown or unstudied. Sweeping generalizations about bisexuals from those whom are not bisexual is just as egregious as sweeping generalizations by bisexuals about those outside the community. Differences in opinions are not absolute. Jumping to conclusions based on skewed or bias perspectives, is wrong but the key is isolating what is wrong and proving it is wrong....imho.

[Gearbox]

a) Wow. Following that logic, one should only believe things that come from groupings you identify with. Don't believe what blacks say about whites, what atheists say about Christians, what Chinese say about Polish, etc, etc, because they're not like you. Now that's scary.
b) ...and many don't. What's the point?
c) What does all this mean? Before I guess and say you are attempting unqualify a Doctor because he says things you don't like or agree with, I'd rather you say it.

In MY experience VERY FEW (None at all) Chinese people think that everybody in the world is really Chinese, but they just don't know it yet.
In MY experience SOME of a sexual persuasion think that all others are of that persuasion, only they just don't know it yet.
So no, you should really not JUST believe what one of one sexuality says about another of a different sexuality. QUESTION QUESTION QUESTION!

QUESTION a homosexual 'Dr' who claims that ALL men who have sex with men are gay, or gay but just don't know it yet. I disqualify the Dr's opinions by being a bisexual. I put his misconceptions down to his struggle to identify as homosexual and using the label 'bisexual' for a period. THIS from a psychologist (or whatever) who couldn't grasp his OWN sexuality btw? Doesn't that give you a little sign that maybe the Dr is JUST Human and can gather his own messed up beliefs just like any other?

Why YOU would be inclined to post his bi-erasing bolox on a bi site and expect bi members to just except the the good Dr's word for it, defies any logic I can fathom.
If he's really speaking of a continuum, where are the bisexuals in HIS world?

[Gearbox]

..and by the same token, what bi men say about gay men.. or other bi men or women or h... forget it...come to think of it.. what any of us say about anyone else....,the Doc may or may not be dopey and wrong, but he is no more dopey and wrong or right than many of the things I have read in these pages over time...

...to dismiss what anyone says because they are different and speak differently is at least as prejudiced and blinkered, and arguably more phobic than any of those who have been so badly slated by mainstream bisexual thought in this and other threads.. they are the statements of closed minds and if I may borrow and employ a term from the theatre of a more general political scene, bisexual "little Englanders"...
I'm really tired of explaining this, but here I go again but in another way:

1. The Dr claims that bisexuals are really gays and don't really get sexually attracted to the opposite sex etc yada yada yada.
2. Being a bisexual male and having sexual attraction to both genders DESPITE what the Dr claims, I wonder WHY he has got it so very wrong.
3. OH he used to be heterosexual....then bisexual...then homosexual....BUT wasn't really hetero or bi, but homosexual the WHOLE TIME.
4. OHHH I wonder if he thinks that ALL who claim bisexuality are really homosexuals just like him?
5. OHHHHH seeing that he got himself some funky letters after his name, I wonder if he put his own difficulties with his sexuality down to JUST a natural order? And that claiming bisexuality is as shallow a lie for all as it was for him. Because yu know....he's a Dr and of course his introspection is exemplary.:rolleyes:


the Doc may or may not be dopey and wrong, but he is no more dopey and wrong or right than many of the things I have read in these pages over time...
THAT I'll have to call bolox on Fran. He's claiming bisexuality is a self deception. Hello! Bisexual site with bisexuals reading that, and the critics are being criticized?:eek2:

[darkeyes]

I'm really tired of explaining this, but here I go again but in another way:

1. The Dr claims that bisexuals are really gays and don't really get sexually attracted to the opposite sex etc yada yada yada.
2. Being a bisexual male and having sexual attraction to both genders DESPITE what the Dr claims, I wonder WHY he has got it so very wrong.
3. OH he used to be heterosexual....then bisexual...then homosexual....BUT wasn't really hetero or bi, but homosexual the WHOLE TIME.
4. OHHH I wonder if he thinks that ALL who claim bisexuality are really homosexuals just like him?
5. OHHHHH seeing that he got himself some funky letters after his name, I wonder if he put his own difficulties with his sexuality down to JUST a natural order? And that claiming bisexuality is as shallow a lie for all as it was for him. Because yu know....he's a Dr and of course his introspection is exemplary.:rolleyes:


THAT I'll have to call bolox on Fran. He's claiming bisexuality is a self deception. Hello! Bisexual site with bisexuals reading that, and the critics are being criticized?:eek2:
You can bollox (2 l's in bollox) me all ya like Gear hun;).. I don't mind.. I have expressed no opinion on what the good doctor said and I wont... based on what I've said before many times u know my attitude on the "every bi is really gay" argument... but I am tired of this always going round the houses and getting nowhere sterility of this discussion every time it arises... and the sterility of accusing others of things they are not... I understand your frustration but others have a point of view.... they have a right to discuss it and u have the right to put forward your own point of view.. it may be that by no longer being bisexual and being gay myself and not being a man I see things from a different perspective and so don't get quite so worked up any more but you and I don't think so differently on the issue itself.. only your reaction to the attitude of certain posters, and one poster in particular..

[Gearbox]

You can bollox (2 l's in bollox) me all ya like Gear hun;).. I don't mind.. I have expressed no opinion on what the good doctor said and I wont... based on what I've said before many times u know my attitude on the "every bi is really gay" argument... but I am tired of this always going round the houses and getting nowhere sterility of this discussion every time it arises... and the sterility of accusing others of things they are not... I understand your frustration but others have a point of view.... they have a right to discuss it and u have the right to put forward your own point of view.. it may be that by no longer being bisexual and being gay myself and not being a man I see things from a different perspective and so don't get quite so worked up any more but you and I don't think so differently on the issue itself.. only your reaction to the attitude of certain posters, and one poster in particular..
Our sexualities and genders do most likely have a BIG difference to how we view things, and that is what I'm saying about the Dr too. Would you be amused if you were reading how there are no such things as lesbians on a lesbian site posted by a lesbian? Would you be likely to think she was sane?

I do NOT understand Aeon in particular at all. It's not that I don't like her or have a grudge etc etc because I do like her and don't have a grudge. I just find her to be using her intelligence to greater her stupidity at times.:tongue: And what better way to do that than to put forward Dr Lorenz's master-class on how to piss off bisexuals on a bisexual site? Come on! Lets go to a Catholic site and tell them Jesus was gay prostitute why don't we?lol
I don't know what you expect from members? Some get really fed up with anti-bi spiel and annoyed when criticised for protesting about it. It's a really crazy phenomena and it should just die a death. At least on here, if not in the real world any way.

[void()]

1. I should have been more clear. That was a rhetorical statement.

2. I said "Our entire existence is imperfect" meaning "human existence." Unless you can prove us humans are not flawed, then it stands. "Existence", as in the omniverse, is a different concept altogether and an interesting one at that.

Since you brought up "binary ideology", to go off topic for a second, there is no such thing as infinite (as in numbers) or eternity (as in time). It's just that us flawed humans cannot comprehend such vast quantum concepts....in a "binary system", which is inherently closed.
`


1. Rhetoric, oh you were being one of those empty vessels Plato says makes noise in harbor? If you've nothing to say, don't say nothing.

2. Human or cosmic, existence is still existence. I would hope cosmic existence included our own existence. And I was not disagreeing with you regarding imperfection, merely suggesting that perfection accounts for imperfection, thus it's all still perfect. Yes, I agree we're flawed. I also agree that state of being flawed makes us perfect. Of course, that may be existentialist bias from reading too much Richard Bach.

[æonpax]

1. Rhetoric, oh you were being one of those empty vessels Plato says makes noise in harbor? If you've nothing to say, don't say nothing. A

2. Human or cosmic, existence is still existence. I would hope cosmic existence included our own existence. And I was not disagreeing with you regarding imperfection, merely suggesting that perfection accounts for imperfection, thus it's all still perfect. Yes, I agree we're flawed. I also agree that state of being flawed makes us perfect. Of course, that may be existentialist bias from reading too much Richard Bach. B

A -Heed your own words.

B - Please note, I used the word "omniverse" for a specific reason.

[æonpax]

Our sexualities and genders do most likely have a BIG difference to how we view things, and that is what I'm saying about the Dr too. Would you be amused if you were reading how there are no such things as lesbians on a lesbian site posted by a lesbian? Would you be likely to think she was sane?

I do NOT understand Aeon in particular at all. It's not that I don't like her or have a grudge etc etc because I do like her and don't have a grudge. I just find her to be using her intelligence to greater her stupidity at times.:tongue: And what better way to do that than to put forward Dr Lorenz's master-class on how to piss off bisexuals on a bisexual site? Come on! Lets go to a Catholic site and tell them Jesus was gay prostitute why don't we?lol
I don't know what you expect from members? Some get really fed up with anti-bi spiel and annoyed when criticised for protesting about it. It's a really crazy phenomena and it should just die a death. At least on here, if not in the real world any way.

This is going nowhere. I'll lay it straight; What caught my attention to this thread was not the topic, it was the discourse. I originally read the link the OP posted and what Dr Loren said did not interest me in the least, so I by-passed it. But I have a habit of reading threads that I don't contribute to (which is most of them) and sometimes I pick up little tidbits of valuable insight.

What bundled my jimmies was dismissing what Dr Loren said, not becuase it was a garrulous essay of jumbled thoughts, but becuase he was a gay writing about bisexuality. To me, that just doesn't make sense and in my way of thinking, is prejudicial and/or biased. I just don't think that's right.

I'm not convinced the author had some ulterior anti-bisexual message, at least not like in a "Dan Savage" kind of way.

[csrakate]

In the grand scheme of things, the issue of Dr. Loren's sexuality is not as crucial as the public's perception of his comments in a mass published magazine. Because he presents as a professional, his comments, valid or not, will be construed as scientifically derived and fact based and they just aren't. The OP created this thread because the whole "social attraction" issue caused her concern and she asked for opinions. Most of us seem to feel that Dr. Loren's premise is flawed....and yes, his sexuality has been mentioned, but overall, I couldn't care less about his sexuality. I contest the conclusion that he presents about bisexuals and their marriages and my frustration has been further exacerbated by the comments of Bisexual Virgin and her stance that bisexual men are not to be trusted...EVER.

I am disturbed, however, by the numerous threads on this site lately that take aim at bisexual men. I have to wonder if there is an agenda behind them....as they are often raised by the same people over and over again and these same people take offense whenever anyone disagrees. This is a bisexual site, after all, and for someone to blatantly and consistently post negative threads about a certain factor in the bisexual community is suspect. What is the purpose behind these threads and if it is indeed a concern, why can't they ask for opinions and not argue vehemently about how wrong we are?

[ExSailor]

In the grand scheme of things, the issue of Dr. Loren's sexuality is not as crucial as the public's perception of his comments in a mass published magazine. Because he presents as a professional, his comments, valid or not, will be construed as scientifically derived and fact based and they just aren't. The OP created this thread because the whole "social attraction" issue caused her concern and she asked for opinions. Most of us seem to feel that Dr. Loren's premise is flawed....and yes, his sexuality has been mentioned, but overall, I couldn't care less about his sexuality. I contest the conclusion that he presents about bisexuals and their marriages and my frustration has been further exacerbated by the comments of Bisexual Virgin and her stance that bisexual men are not to be trusted...EVER. I am disturbed, however, by the numerous threads on this site lately that take aim at bisexual men. I have to wonder if there is an agenda behind them....as they are often raised by the same people over and over again and these same people take offense whenever anyone disagrees. This is a bisexual site, after all, and for someone to blatantly and consistently post negative threads about a certain factor in the bisexual community is suspect. What is the purpose behind these threads and if it is indeed a concern, why can't they ask for opinions and not argue vehemently about how wrong we are? Well said Kate. Aeon is also against bisexual men and has this agenda against bisexual men. She went on and on about how we bisexual men get HIV from gay men and knowingly infect women with HIV, or that if we are HIV+ as I am that we lie about it to everyone. But in her biphobic, homophobic, and pozphobic opinion heterosexual men are not going to be HIV+ or have other STDs and that they'll be "clean", "DDF" or all of the other BS terms pozphobic people use. Not only is her biphobic, pozphobic, and homophobic post hate speech but it's wrong too.

[ExSailor]

Some get really fed up with anti-bi spiel and annoyed when criticised for protesting about it. It's a really crazy phenomena and it should just die a death. At least on here, if not in the real world any way. We as bisexuals should all speak out against biphobia both on this site, and in person to people or as you put it in the real world. Let's also not forget that even bisexuals such as Aeon and the supposed bisexual virgin can also be biphobic and homophobic as they have both proven and shown that they are.

[csrakate]

Well said Kate. Aeon is also against bisexual men and has this agenda against bisexual men. She went on and on about how we bisexual men get HIV from gay men and knowingly infect women with HIV, or that if we are HIV+ as I am that we lie about it to everyone. But in her biphobic, homophobic, and pozphobic opinion heterosexual men are not going to be HIV+ or have other STDs and that they'll be "clean", "DDF" or all of the other BS terms pozphobic people use. Not only is her biphobic, pozphobic, and homophobic post hate speech but it's wrong too.
Please don't connect my comments to your attack on Aeon. Your rant has nothing to do with my concerns and I certainly will not be associated with YOUR attacks on another member. I simply posted that I was concerned about some threads.

[darkeyes]

We as bisexuals should all speak out against biphobia both on this site, and in person to people or as you put it in the real world. Let's also not forget that even bisexuals such as Aeon and the supposed bisexual virgin can also be biphobic and homophobic as they have both proven and shown that they are.
click...click....click....click....click...

[darkeyes]

click.....

[pepperjack]

The messiest reality of bisexuality is all the deceit & game playing!

[void()]

A -Heed your own words.

B - Please note, I used the word "omniverse" for a specific reason.

A - I stated my opinion which disagreed with what the author of the article in question posited. My opinion and disagreement of theirs is based on personal experience as a bi man. I could care less if the author is from Pluto, homosexual, or even a single celled amobea. I disagree because in personal experience I do not perceive their opinion as accurate, not because they are x or y. So, I had something to say.

B - You suggest a multitude of universes in saying that existence is not existence? My point still remains, existence is existence. Granted it may be different in another universe, but to exist is to exist. I used cosmos to infer all universes, dimensions. Existing is existing.

[Gearbox]

This is going nowhere. I'll lay it straight; What caught my attention to this thread was not the topic, it was the discourse. I originally read the link the OP posted and what Dr Loren said did not interest me in the least, so I by-passed it. But I have a habit of reading threads that I don't contribute to (which is most of them) and sometimes I pick up little tidbits of valuable insight.

What bundled my jimmies was dismissing what Dr Loren said, not becuase it was a garrulous essay of jumbled thoughts, but becuase he was a gay writing about bisexuality. To me, that just doesn't make sense and in my way of thinking, is prejudicial and/or biased. I just don't think that's right.

I'm not convinced the author had some ulterior anti-bisexual message, at least not like in a "Dan Savage" kind of way.
I realise that how I slurred the Dr could seem homophobic, because I pointed out HIS homosexuality being a factor in his misguided view of bisexuality (or the non existence of). How he denied then eventually came to accept his homosexuality is a factor and not homosexuality itself.
He was never bisexual! He was never heterosexual! He was always homosexual although he convinced HIMSELF otherwise. THAT nor HE is a good litmus for ALL others who claim bisexuality, not one iota different to those who claim to be heterosexuals either.

I have personally met and chatted with homosexuals who went through pretty much the same process as the Dr, and some/majority have told me how there is no such thing as bisexuality as if it were a fact. It would be a lot more productive for some Dr to do a paper on THAT IMO.
To me, it's not outright bigoted biphobic malice, but something of a social psychological 'seeing of the light' thing. It's pseudo spiritual.:stoned:

[tenni]

In the grand scheme of things, the issue of Dr. Loren's sexuality is not as crucial as the public's perception of his comments in a mass published magazine. Because he presents as a professional, his comments, valid or not, will be construed as scientifically derived and fact based and they just aren't. The OP created this thread because the whole "social attraction" issue caused her concern and she asked for opinions. Most of us seem to feel that Dr. Loren's premise is flawed....and yes, his sexuality has been mentioned, but overall, I couldn't care less about his sexuality. I contest the conclusion that he presents about bisexuals and their marriages and my frustration has been further exacerbated by the comments of Bisexual Virgin and her stance that bisexual men are not to be trusted...EVER.

I am disturbed, however, by the numerous threads on this site lately that take aim at bisexual men. I have to wonder if there is an agenda behind them....as they are often raised by the same people over and over again and these same people take offense whenever anyone disagrees. This is a bisexual site, after all, and for someone to blatantly and consistently post negative threads about a certain factor in the bisexual community is suspect. What is the purpose behind these threads and if it is indeed a concern, why can't they ask for opinions and not argue vehemently about how wrong we are?

I agree with you Cskate. I particularly support her position that he is being given more credibility than is merited by a magazine that the general public believes has credibility. So people are going to believe that b imen have to think about having sex with a man while making love to their female partner. Bi men behave like bisexuals but all want to identify as gay men.(same mantra from some gay men without diplomas say about bi men are really gay but haven't admitted it yet)

As far as to whether a gay psychiatrist is capable of counselling bisexual men that may be possible. Would a bisexual psychiatrist be more emphathetic and understanding with a bisexual man? I am inclined to think so. I do think that some of the ideas from this Dr are still without merit or validity at least questionable. All of his ideas were not wrong as most of us have written. The highlighted OP versions and several more ideas are very questionable to those of us who are bimen.

This psychiatrist tells men to "pretend" that they are having sex with a man when they are having sex with a woman. That sounds more like a gay man to me and others here. I've heard self identified(finally) gay men who use to be married to a woman make such statements about having to pretend that he was fucking a man and not a woman. "I love my wife but I'm not "in love" with her" is the comment from gay men who acted bisexual but wanted to identify as gay.(eventually mostly they do identify as gay if only to themselves) I've recently read about a young man experiencing this. Time will tell if he identifies as gay and changes his behaviour from bi to exclusively gay or not. It isn't easy figuring out our sexuality whether we are bi or gay. Shocking for a gay man to find out years later that he is fantasizing about sex with a woman. Perhaps, the psychiatrist just didn't have a wide enough sample since bisexuality is so broad? He does seem to be trying to get bisexuals to fit into his theory rather than the wide range of different types of bimen.

Post 99
I think that we have a different perspective as to what discussion, debate and personal attack means. I've not always been an angel and failed myself in hind sight. I'm trying.

As to proof of your behaviour and attempts to slur me on another site Vuil, I could post what was written to me in a PM. Would that be ethical to do so without the writer's permission and if it is not complementary to you? I wouldn't want someone to do that to me. I will not do that to the moderator. (besides he might kick me off the site for doing so..lol)

Gear
You might as well give up on trying to explain to these women what bi men are about sexually with women and men. They don't seem to want to understand. They have their perspective and that is it.

[ExSailor]

This is going nowhere. I'll lay it straight; What caught my attention to this thread was not the topic, it was the discourse. I originally read the link the OP posted and what Dr Loren said did not interest me in the least, so I by-passed it. But I have a habit of reading threads that I don't contribute to (which is most of them) and sometimes I pick up little tidbits of valuable insight. What bundled my jimmies was dismissing what Dr Loren said, not becuase it was a garrulous essay of jumbled thoughts, but becuase he was a gay writing about bisexuality. To me, that just doesn't make sense and in my way of thinking, is prejudicial and/or biased. I just don't think that's right. I'm not convinced the author had some ulterior anti-bisexual message, at least not like in a "Dan Savage" kind of way. We all know how you completely supported Dan Savage, and actually defended him even though a lot of bisexual people here said how he's completely biphobic. The psychologist in the article is biphobic, practices bisexual erasure, and it's not surprising that you'd claim that the psychologist is not really that hurtful towards us bisexual men or that he's not practicing biphobia, bisexual erasure, or hate speech; but then again let's consider just who is claiming that the psychologist is not being biphobic and practicing bisexual erasure.
You might as well give up on trying to explain to these women what bi men are about sexually with women and men. They don't seem to want to understand. They have their perspective and that is it. I agree then again biphobia runs rampant on this site even from other bisexuals such as ones who think that if you're a bisexual man you'll be HIV+ and have other STDs and lie about being HIV+ and intentionally do not have safer sex since we want to supposedly infect others. But hetero men are OK, and are less likely to be poz because they're heterosexual. Not only is this type of thinking completely wrong, and outdated from the 80s, it's biphobic/homophobic and nothing but pure hate speech against queer (bisexual and gay) men, and hate speech and poz phobia against people such as myself who are HIV+.

[tenni]

"I have spoken with countless numbers of these men whose attraction is to men, whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone.”

a) – What he is saying is that there is an inherent ambiguity between identifying one’s self as being a Gay and/or a Bisexual male, in this case. The same sexual ambiguity exists with females but that’s not the topic here."

Ah. Imo this is a weak extrapolation. His exact wording did not include "ambiguity" and a better word might be "confusion" if you are extrapolating. The Dr. makes no reference nor does Aeon about the man's sexual attraction to women as well as men. He does not define what he means by "bisexual behaviour" but for most it includes sex acts with both men and women at different times or the same time. Both behaviour and identity are different for gay men than bisexual men. It is a chicken and egg debate as to whether these men were really gay all along and finally identified that way to themselves at least. These men that the Dr. refers to are gay men..not bisexual. If he meant ambiguity/confusion he would not have made the statement that he made.

This is not trying to justify my little world Aeon. This is debating and yes semantics about when a man is gay...not bisexual. I agree the fluidity aspect is relevant but over time behaviour and identity come together hopefully.

[æonpax]

I realise that how I slurred the Dr could seem homophobic, because I pointed out HIS homosexuality being a factor in his misguided view of bisexuality (or the non existence of). How he denied then eventually came to accept his homosexuality is a factor and not homosexuality itself.
He was never bisexual! He was never heterosexual! He was always homosexual although he convinced HIMSELF otherwise. THAT nor HE is a good litmus for ALL others who claim bisexuality, not one iota different to those who claim to be heterosexuals either.

I have personally met and chatted with homosexuals who went through pretty much the same process as the Dr, and some/majority have told me how there is no such thing as bisexuality as if it were a fact. It would be a lot more productive for some Dr to do a paper on THAT IMO.
To me, it's not outright bigoted biphobic malice, but something of a social psychological 'seeing of the light' thing. It's pseudo spiritual.:stoned:


While I still do not fully agree with you, I'm not going to dispute what you say. What Dr. Loren wrote was his opinion, not a peer reviewed report or study. Also, for a professional of his stature, it was a poorly written essay at that.

I judge an opinion on the accuracy of facts and the strength of logic, not orientation. I have read many peer-reviwed research reports done by heterosexuals about homosexuals and the authors orientation has nothing to the scientific competence of such writings.

I also, still do not see the alleged biphobia in his essay. I've read sweeping generalizations but not a point-by-point deconstruction of what he said as being biphobic. Perhaps you can help me with this.

[æonpax]

"I have spoken with countless numbers of these men whose attraction is to men, whose behavior is bisexual, but who would like to self-identify as gay. Many of these men experience considereable emotional pain and feel isolated and alone.”

a) – What he is saying is that there is an inherent ambiguity between identifying one’s self as being a Gay and/or a Bisexual male, in this case. The same sexual ambiguity exists with females but that’s not the topic here."

1) Ah. Imo this is a weak extrapolation. 2) His exact wording did not include "ambiguity" and a better word might be "confusion" if you are extrapolating. 3) The dr. makes no reference nor does Aeon about the man's sexual attraction to women as well as men. 4) He does not define what he means by "bisexual behaviour" but for most it includes men and women at different times or the same time. Both are different for gay men than bisexual men. It is a chicken and egg debate as to whether these men were really gay all along and finally identified that way to themselves at least.

5) This is not trying to justify my little world Aeon. This is debating and yes semantics about when a man is gay...not bisexual. I agree the fluidity aspect is relevant but over time behaviour and identity come together.


1) Your unfounded opinion.

2) Did I say it did? Did I quote that? Look up the word "ambiguity". All you are doing is nitpicking in a desperate attempt to qualify yourself. Sorry, it's not working.

3) Should he have? You are the one making an accusation of biphobia without pointing out what was biphobic.

4) So what? The phrase "bisexual behavior" is very nonspecific http://health.howstuffworks.com/sexual-health/sexuality/bisexual-behavior-dictionary.htm and becuase these is so little research done on it, can be broadly applied.

5) You can only debate semantics when you understand the nuances of the English language.

You still have not specified which sentences and phrases Dr Loren used to lead you to believe he is biphobic.

[æonpax]

I do NOT understand Aeon in particular at all. It's not that I don't like her or have a grudge etc etc because I do like her and don't have a grudge. I just find her to be using her intelligence to greater her stupidity at times.:tongue: And what better way to do that than to put forward Dr Lorenz's master-class on how to piss off bisexuals on a bisexual site? .

First off, I am happy to say YOU do NOT represent the bisexual community nor the bisexual's at this site. Where that the case, both would be in exceedingly worse condition.

Secondly, you wuss out of arguments. It's easier to attack the person than to defend an allegation you make, especially when it's an allegation you cannot prove. Facts scare you and as you completely lack the acumen and intelligence to mount an academic reply, you start whining to everyone.

I understand you, unfortunately. It doesn't take much.

[Gearbox]

First off, I am happy to say YOU do NOT represent the bisexual community nor the bisexual's at this site. Where that the case, both would be in exceedingly worse condition.

Secondly, you wuss out of arguments. It's easier to attack the person than to defend an allegation you make, especially when it's an allegation you cannot prove. Facts scare you and as you completely lack the acumen and intelligence to mount an academic reply, you start whining to everyone.

I understand you, unfortunately. It doesn't take much.
No you don't understand me at all, although you think you do, and probably think you understand others too. In Post 124 where I tried to explain my judgement on the Dr, went completely over your head and you decided to keep standing in that stagnant pool of mildew 'facts' you gather.
This is WHY I think you use your intelligence to be stupid. It MUST take a considerable effort on your part to come out with the blatant bollox that you do:
That is not meant as a personal attack! I just can't put it in a better way: Your stupidity is DELIBERATE much like a troll's!

For eg: You are trying bs me that you've read the article and find nothing biphobic going on. YOU quoted CDC reports where Dr Loren claimed that the 3% of men who have sex with men but don't identify as gay, are really gays and not BISEXUALS. In another thread YOU use CDC reports to claim BISEXUALS are festering STD carriers.
Like I have said, those reports can be used to 'prove' whatever bs anybody cared to prove. 'Facts' of 'fiction'!
It's insulting that you view members so woefully stupid, that you could afford such stupidity and STILL 'outwit' them. Sorry, but no! You need to check your karma.

Yes I also judge authors of articles on the logic of their articles and NOT their sexuality too. But when that logic is obviously flawed, such as implying/claiming that BISEXUALS are really HOMOSEXUALS (males in particular) I am obviously in a better position than you to see how wrong that is, as I actually do exist as a male bisexual.
I don't represent all bisexuals, but I DO represent MY bisexuality. It's tragic that I have to defend that here on a bisexual site, but that's life.:rolleyes:

[tenni]

Post 125
"1) Your unfounded opinion."

response
My unfounded opinion on what your interpretation of what the dr wrote? Yes I disagree with your interpretation and inference.

I am not disputing that your opinion about the area on the continuum between bisexual and gay is unclear. I would agree that it is a bit unclear (ambiguous) as to when one person becomes(self identifies) gay or another person (self) identifies as bisexual if the person is primarily exhibiting same sex behaviour. That is not what the Dr was stating at all.

As far as the use of the term "bisexual behaviour" I agree with you that it may be broad. An educated man who is writing in a psych magazine(attempt to be a journal) should be clarifying his language just as he was unclear (ambiguous) about the use of the word "social". This is our point of contention with his efforts at publishing this article. He attempts to label all bisexual men as being connected to this one thesis. He seems to see things as binary( hetero or gay) even when discussing bisexual men.

Whether this is "nit picking" or an attempt to show that the writer is not articulating his thesis sufficiently is "your opinion".

As far as my opinion being unfounded, I happen to fall into that behaviour category of more same sex activity than hetero. There was a time in my life where the opposite was happening. Annika (and others) also exhibits same sex sexual behaviour but identifies as bisexual. Darkeyes' partner also exhibits same sex sexual behaviour but identifies as bisexual.

I have reflected on whether I am really gay. I decided that no, I am bisexual for several reasons in my sexual arousal responses and my romantic emotional life history as being able to become emotional attached to both men and women as well as sexually attracted to both. Is my opinion unfounded, well if you wish to deny me my own life as a bisexual man, that is your choice. Do you also deny men who self identify as bisexual but whose sexual behaviour is strictly hetero?

As far as being able to debate with knowing the nuances of the English language, I agree that is true. Your point is? Please articulate clearer otherwise I am left to infer that you are insulting rather than debating.

As far as Gear representing the bisexual community, he also represents my part of the bisexual community. He is male. He is self identified as bisexual. He disputes the Dr. belief that male bisexual behaviour and self identifying as gay are connected without addressing his segment of male bisexuality that enjoys sex with both men and women. Many /most Bi men do not have to think of fucking other men while fucking a woman to keep hard.

You, Aeon are female. You do not positively identify with the males who self identify as bisexual. (in fact you post hostile opinions about male bisexuals as sex partners) You may identify as a female bisexual. You do not dispute the Dr.'s belief that bisexual male behaviour and identifying as gay are connected. Your postings sometimes suggest that you have no idea what is in a bi man's mind while fucking a woman. At other times, you seem to have a unique perspective on men generally.(not sure if it is positive).

Who is attempting to represent whom?

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Many /most Bi men do not have to think of fucking other men while fucking a woman to keep hard.
^

I actually heard the opposite.Although the numbers are few, there are bisexual men out there have to imagine being with a man in order to get hard,while having sex with a woman.Or after a while most of them don't have sex with their women no more.

[ErosUrge]

Wow! What a complex web of comments. Using my own story here I must say that since I accepted being bi many years ago and stopped living secretly, I have been more at peace and enjoyed sex much more. It has indeed prevented me from having an involved relationship as this is something that I would like. But I'm not going to live in secret about it and I always let the women that I do get interested in know. And I am convinced that sooner or later I will meet such a woman that can relate and understands as there are such women here on this site. I also know of some personally who are already involved or married and accept their men being bi. Though I do think living in secret is a mistake, I can relate since I did the same thing myself at one time. And there are still some people that don't know and aren't ever going to accept it, but that's not my problem. I don't see the point of letting anyone know that isn't willing to try to understand.

As far as those men who do live in secret and though I don't agree with it, I don't condemn them for it either. I know how it is to love someone and not want to lose them yet having desire to be with men. Sure, I think it would be best for them to reveal this part of themselves, but they have to get there and come to terms with it; or not. I will say that anyone who is gay and proposes to give advice as to how bi men should be may not completely understand. Based on many of the comments made here, I think it's wonderful that we have this community to communicate....there are some great insights on this topic of our sexuality and I am glad you are all here. Bisexuality has so many dimensions....

[jamieknyc]

Many /most Bi men do not have to think of fucking other men while fucking a woman to keep hard.
^

I actually heard the opposite.Although the numbers are few, there are bisexual men out there have to imagine being with a man in order to get hard,while having sex with a woman.Or after a while most of them don't have sex with their women no more.
There are a lot of myths about what bisexual men do- and very little serious scientific material.

[SunnyGrl]

Unfortunately, the point the article's author was making really had to do with married men who have sex with men, which led him to make blanket statements (many of which are untrue) about ALL bisexuals. Example: " In a culture that still values monogamy as the ideal in relationships, it is hard to get past the issue that all bisexuals who act on their sexual attraction are guilty (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/guilt) of infidelity (http://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/infidelity)." Uhm, excuse me?

While some of his points about married MSM are accurate, I think his overall understanding of bisexuality is skewed by his own experience as a long-time closeted homosexual. To wit: bi-sexuality does NOT have to mean non-monogamous or polyamorous. Nor does it mean that a bisexual person has to "give up" a part of themselves by being in a relationship. That's just silly. Nobody asserts that a heterosexual person gives up a part of themselves when they enter a relationship.

As a look at a very specific segment of the bisexual population, the article is interesting, but assumes too much.




Bravo. FunE1's post is exactly what I was thinking. The article assumes way too much. I'm a bisexual woman, but if I fall in love with a woman and spend my life with her, I'm not gonna die for want of a man. Same thing if I were to marry a man: I won't have a tantrum if I can't have a woman. I could love either sex and be monogamous, and guess what? I'm STILL bisexual.

[bi4asplay]

My late wife got me started in the bi life style. There was no need for hiding anything..If she had not taken me there I doubt that I ever would have gone there.The thought had never entered my mind before.She started it slowly after descovering that I like my ass played with be inserting a finger in my ass while giving me head. She knew becausae I got a bit harder when she touched my ass.I resisted at first.She would not take no for an answer.When she touched my G spotI came harder than I even had before. After that she made a dildo,you could not buy them back then.After much much plaese let me try it on you I gave in and loved it.She used it for a couple of years before she sat up something I could not get out off because of a promise I made her.While blindfolded and tied to the bed she made me taste my first cock ,take my first load of cum in my mouth and the first cock in the ass over a 3 day weekend where it happened many more times. We played like that for the next 25 years and I still like it.

[ExSailor]

Post 125 You, Aeon are female. You do not positively identify with the males who self identify as bisexual. (in fact you post hostile opinions about male bisexuals as sex partners) You may identify as a female bisexual. You do not dispute the Dr.'s belief that bisexual male behaviour and identifying as gay are connected. Your postings sometimes suggest that you have no idea what is in a bi man's mind while fucking a woman. At other times, you seem to have a unique perspective on men generally.(not sure if it is positive). Who is attempting to represent whom? Also it should be noted that Aeon is biphobic, homophobic, and she's pozphobic since she thinks that we bisexual men get infected with HIV via gay men and knowingly infect others. But hetero men somehow don't become poz at all and sex with them is perfectly fine. Aeon is using biphobia, homophobia, pozphobia, and hate speech as a way to excuse and rationalize having unprotected sex with men.

[darkeyes]

Also it should be noted that Aeon is biphobic, homophobic, and she's pozphobic since she thinks that we bisexual men get infected with HIV via gay men and knowingly infect others. But hetero men somehow don't become poz at all and sex with them is perfectly fine. Aeon is using biphobia, homophobia, pozphobia, and hate speech as a way to excuse and rationalize having unprotected sex with men.
Click.. click...click...cick..click..click...

[darkeyes]

^

Although the numbers are few, there are bisexual men out there have to imagine being with a man in order to get hard,while having sex with a woman.Or after a while most of them don't have sex with their women no more.
If that's the case, then it begs the question of whether they are bisexual in the first place...

[æonpax]

No you don't understand me at all, although you think you do, and probably think you understand others too. In Post 124 where I tried to explain my judgement on the Dr, went completely over your head and you decided to keep standing in that stagnant pool of mildew 'facts' you gather.
This is WHY I think you use your intelligence to be stupid. It MUST take a considerable effort on your part to come out with the blatant bollox that you do:
That is not meant as a personal attack! I just can't put it in a better way: Your stupidity is DELIBERATE much like a troll's!

For eg: You are trying bs me that you've read the article and find nothing biphobic going on. YOU quoted CDC reports where Dr Loren claimed that the 3% of men who have sex with men but don't identify as gay, are really gays and not BISEXUALS. In another thread YOU use CDC reports to claim BISEXUALS are festering STD carriers.
Like I have said, those reports can be used to 'prove' whatever bs anybody cared to prove. 'Facts' of 'fiction'!
It's insulting that you view members so woefully stupid, that you could afford such stupidity and STILL 'outwit' them. Sorry, but no! You need to check your karma.

Yes I also judge authors of articles on the logic of their articles and NOT their sexuality too. But when that logic is obviously flawed, such as implying/claiming that BISEXUALS are really HOMOSEXUALS (males in particular) I am obviously in a better position than you to see how wrong that is, as I actually do exist as a male bisexual.
I don't represent all bisexuals, but I DO represent MY bisexuality. It's tragic that I have to defend that here on a bisexual site, but that's life.:rolleyes:


It may be "biphobic", to your way of thinking...but not to mine. I looked at Loren's article and replies as "edgy" ...meaning he might offend a few people, BUT, despite the hyperbole I've seen here, there is little or no chance of what he says, to cause HARM to anyone in the greater LGBT community.

I recognize that there is a vocal contingent here that is ultra-sensitive to "perceived" harm, but for the life of me, they only represent a minute fraction of what exists under the Bisexual Umbrella.

[ExSailor]

It may be "biphobic", to your way of thinking...but not to mine. I looked at Loren's article and replies as "edgy" ...meaning he might offend a few people, BUT, despite the hyperbole I've seen here, there is little or no chance of what he says, to cause HARM to anyone in the greater LGBT community. I recognize that there is a vocal contingent here that is ultra-sensitive to "perceived" harm, but for the life of me, they only represent a minute fraction of what exists under the Bisexual Umbrella. riiiiiiiiight, sure it's not biphobia, and it's not going to harm bisexual men. :rolleyes: What he wrote does cause harm to us bisexuals and to bisexual men in the larger bisexual community, and GLBT community. Someone else posted about how straight people and gay people who don't know a lot about bisexuality will read that article and will believe that what he wrote is somehow true. No people here are not ultra sensitive to biphobia especially when someone who is gay or bisexual promotes it or spreads it. Thankfully bisexuals who promote biphobia and biphobic myths (that bisexual men are mostly all HIV+ and can't be trusted but hetero men can, that we're really gay men, etc.) that there are a fair amount of people like this on this site are a minority within the larger bisexual community.

[ExSailor]

Many /most Bi men do not have to think of fucking other men while fucking a woman to keep hard. ^ I actually heard the opposite.Although the numbers are few, there are bisexual men out there have to imagine being with a man in order to get hard,while having sex with a woman.Or after a while most of them don't have sex with their women no more. If this happens then they're not bisexual at all; but they're gay men. I have gay male friends who have had sex with women when they were younger when they were closeted. I asked them how it was for them and they said how they had to think about men the entire time just to get hard, stay hard, and perform/finish. While they had sex with women in their youth as young adults but they've never been sexually aroused towards any woman and sex with a woman is not something they're going to ever have again now that they're out.

[Gearbox]

It may be "biphobic", to your way of thinking...but not to mine. I looked at Loren's article and replies as "edgy" ...meaning he might offend a few people, BUT, despite the hyperbole I've seen here, there is little or no chance of what he says, to cause HARM to anyone in the greater LGBT community.

I recognize that there is a vocal contingent here that is ultra-sensitive to "perceived" harm, but for the life of me, they only represent a minute fraction of what exists under the Bisexual Umbrella.
This thread was created by the OP who searched for information about bisexuals, found Dr Loren's article, found it disturbing, and wanted to ask bisexuals for their opinions on it.
Deep breath now Aeon -- Apparently Dr Loren wasn't just and 'edgy' author, but also full of shit too. Not about everything, but the most relevant things about bisexuals, such as their existence and their ability to like cock & fanny. Now to you, that maybe some 1st class investigative journalism? BUT to every bisexual on Earth it's propaganda.;)
Just because we already have shit loads of propaganda, myths, lies etc about bisexuality, doesn't mean a little more is insignificant. You claim to be concerned about political parties spewing anti LGBT spiel there in USA. You claim it's harmful! It's just words aimed at a few, so why aren't you supporting those politicians the same as you support Dr Loren?

[tenni]

Post 140
Well, Mister on his thirteenth? day of not smoking is showing a different side of himself not his usual humour and wit. :) Just unvarnished points.
l:wiggle2::rotate: Well, written Gear. I'm not sure if it is propaganda or ignorance and an assumption of understanding bi men. On the other hand is it ignorance or propaganda being stated by some self described bi women on this site? Where does Bi Virgin get her ideas?..:yikes2: Who are these people that she pays attention to in order to prep herself to post on this site about bi men? (Dr. Loren?)

My friends were discussing whether those who discriminate against ALL of a marginalized group are the last to understand.