Tragedy in Colorado

[DuckiesDarling]

As many of you are waking up this morning you are seeing the news of what happened last night at the premiere of The Dark Knight Rises in Aurora, CO just outside Denver. A gunman opened fire about 30 minutes into the movie and at least 14 dead, one a child and 50 injured. So take a moment and say a bit of a prayer for those that died and the ones that may still die and the wounded who will bear scars both physical and emotional for the rest of their lives.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-shooting-denverbre86j0am-20120720,0,6584688.story

[Long Duck Dong]

been watching it on the news on the cnn news feed from the US....

my concerns are with the victims in hospital, the family, loved ones and friends that were there or are waiting to hear word and I am hoping that its not another columbine for some of the people.....

hugs to all our members over that way and the members with friends, family and loved ones over that way

[DuckiesDarling]

And it's started...people are already using this tragedy as an all out attack on the Second Amendment. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And this person opened fire in a crowded theater as an act of terror. Whether or not the guns were legal wouldn't have stopped him from doing something, it would have resulted in the same outrage, perhaps even greater loss of life and there would be the same reaction. You can argue all you want about the possession of guns causing things but they were illegal for over years in Chicago until it was overturned in 2011, yet in one day they had 20 shootings... So legal or not the guns are out there, yes even in Canada where you can only have a varmint rifle, the guns exist and they are in the hands of people. People who are the ones that make the decision to fire a gun at a target or an animal or a person whether for practice, defense or food. And yes.. for the act of committing a crime. But that's why they are called criminals they don't give a crap what is legal or not.

[Gearbox]

I thought this was going to be about a natural disaster, like a tornado. I think it's even more tragic that a person caused it all.

[biguy71]

And it's started...people are already using this tragedy as an all out attack on the Second Amendment. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And this person opened fire in a crowded theater as an act of terror. Whether or not the guns were legal wouldn't have stopped him from doing something, it would have resulted in the same outrage, perhaps even greater loss of life and there would be the same reaction. You can argue all you want about the possession of guns causing things but they were illegal for over years in Chicago until it was overturned in 2011, yet in one day they had 20 shootings... So legal or not the guns are out there, yes even in Canada where you can only have a varmint rifle, the guns exist and they are in the hands of people. People who are the ones that make the decision to fire a gun at a target or an animal or a person whether for practice, defense or food. And yes.. for the act of committing a crime. But that's why they are called criminals they don't give a crap what is legal or not.

Unfortunately, there will always be people who will try to use a situation like this to further their political agendae. There is no law that can protect people from a determined criminal. The police certainly can't, either. The police response in this situation was apparently very good, but they were still only able to arrive in time to arrest the guy after the deed was done. It's just a shame that things like this happen. Freedom is more important than safety, though. Even though there will always be people who abuse their freedom, sometimes with tragic results, that doesn't mean that I should have to give mine up. I hope that the response to this isn't to treat everyone who goes to the movies like a criminal the way they have traditionally done to students after school shootings.

[pepperjack]

I thought this was going to be about a natural disaster, like a tornado. I think it's even more tragic that a person caused it all.

I had a gut-reaction to your post! It appears as the most human, horrified, numbed reaction to human nature in our 21st century.

[æonpax]

And it's started...people are already using this tragedy as an all out attack on the Second Amendment. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. And this person opened fire in a crowded theater as an act of terror. Whether or not the guns were legal wouldn't have stopped him from doing something, it would have resulted in the same outrage, perhaps even greater loss of life and there would be the same reaction. You can argue all you want about the possession of guns causing things but they were illegal for over years in Chicago until it was overturned in 2011, yet in one day they had 20 shootings... So legal or not the guns are out there, yes even in Canada where you can only have a varmint rifle, the guns exist and they are in the hands of people. People who are the ones that make the decision to fire a gun at a target or an animal or a person whether for practice, defense or food. And yes.. for the act of committing a crime. But that's why they are called criminals they don't give a crap what is legal or not.
`

Worse....people are now using this calamity for ideological purposes, to wit;


Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html?

and

Alex Jones Says Aurora Shooting Was Staged By Obama
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40636_Alex_Jones_Says_Aurora_Shooting_Was_Staged_B y_Obama



These are not well people.

[jarhead]

`

Worse....people are now using this calamity for ideological purposes, to wit;
Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html?

and

Alex Jones Says Aurora Shooting Was Staged By Obama
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40636_Alex_Jones_Says_Aurora_Shooting_Was_Staged_B y_Obama



These are not well people.

Should I ask you why you didn't mention what ABC news did? Oh, right; it didn't fit your narrative.

[æonpax]

Should I ask you why you didn't mention what ABC news did? Oh, right; it didn't fit your narrative.


Gladly. The ABC report that linked the gunman to the teaparty, was false. ABC retracted that
ABC offers apology for misidentifying the shooter as a tea party member -
http://www.lauraingraham.com/b/ABC-News-Article-on-shooting,-including-editors-note-with-retraction--apology/16459229711642894.html

This was a case of poor journalism. They did not properly verify their claim. They publicly apologized.


The two loonies that claimed the Aurora tragedy was the result of secret organizations mounting attacks against Christians and/or was an event orchestrated Barack Obama, are not rational people and attract an audience that wants to believe, what they say, is true.

[jarhead]

I'll fully agree with you on that, and Alex Jones loves to throw insane firebombs into a crowd.

[pepperjack]

`

Worse....people are now using this calamity for ideological purposes, to wit;

Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/20/louie-gohmert-aurora-shootings_n_1689099.html?

and

Alex Jones Says Aurora Shooting Was Staged By Obama
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40636_Alex_Jones_Says_Aurora_Shooting_Was_Staged_B y_Obama



These are not well people.


Couldn't agree with you more. This type of conspiracy theory babble is on the same level of thinking as that of the gunman.

[elian]

What else do people do this for but to get attention..numb is probably the right word to use at this point as far as I am concerned..I would like to know the motivation but I also know that there are certain individuals who really do want to die, it's a shame that he had to hurt so many people in the process..he should have just shot himself and gotten it over with...only a coward knowingly kills innocent people.

I guess it's cruel to say that, in the event that he really had a mental illness maybe he truly didn't want to die, but for the time being his actions sort of speak otherwise to me. At this point he ought to know better so I feel no sympathy for the shooter.

Of course I hope that something like this won't happen again, but until we learn to live with a different perception of how each of us relates to society I don't hold much hope.

I had a dream once, I was there I was there in a totally different place, where all of this shit works together..
technology works, society works, people work, for the betterment of everyone.

Technology wasn't a status symbol, it was in the background - what was important were the people, the society.

People were valued but there was also value beyond the ego of one person. "Family", "Community" - these words actually meant something. There wouldn't be a lone gunman there..there would be no need for a lone gunman.

I don't know if we'll EVER get there from here

Aren't you get tired of people lashing out? I know I am.

[æonpax]

Couldn't agree with you more. This type of conspiracy theory babble is on the same level of thinking as that of the gunman.
`

Brace yourself, it's getting worse;

Fischer Blames ACLU, Supreme Court For Colorado Shooting Massacre - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/fischer-blames-aclu-and-supreme-court-for-colorado-shooting-massacre/news/2012/07/20/44129

and
Hate Group Leaders Use Colorado Massacre To Attack Gay People - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/hate-group-leaders-use-colorado-massacre-to-attack-gay-people/news/2012/07/20/44108

[elian]

I have two things to say:

1) WTF

It used to be that the only thing that would bring this country together is a terrible mass tragedy, now THAT doesn't even seem to make difference.

2) More than half of this country was born out of the idea of manifest destiny, steeped in a culture of violence, we educate people to TAKE what they want..and continuously reinforce that idea with advertising and crap shows on TV that SELL advertising. Is there no soul left? I honestly don't think that this country HAS what it takes to be reverent and respectful to the degree needed to save our society...nature can't fight back - at least until she kicks us in the ass with a massive drought, hurricanes, tropical storms and tornadoes.

Leave the damn gay people alone, it's not the gay people who are causing bad things to happen. Leave the damn guns alone, a gun is a tool - if you educate people correctly and support them so they grow up to be healthy individuals, they will KNOW the difference between right and wrong and feel supported enough to not have to resort to lashing out. Maybe on the flipside of that people who are rabid gun freaks can understand the awesome power of these weapons and realize that there's not a lot of thought required before you pull the trigger...

Leave it alone, love each other - do the right thing .. is it really that hard?! I don't get it. If we cared for each other then it would make a difference.

Wasn't life a lot simpler when only the people in Colorado knew the news in Colorado? I'm starting to think the big push for "personal" technology in the 70's was a mistake.

[DuckiesDarling]

I have two things to say:

1) WTF

It used to be that the only thing that would bring this country together is a terrible mass tragedy, now THAT doesn't even seem to make difference.

2) More than half of this country was born out of the idea of manifest destiny, steeped in a culture of violence, we educate people to TAKE what they want..and continuously reinforce that idea with advertising and crap shows on TV that SELL advertising. Is there no soul left? I honestly don't think that this country HAS what it takes to be reverent and respectful to the degree needed to save our society...nature can't fight back - at least until she kicks us in the ass with a massive drought, hurricanes, tropical storms and tornadoes.

Leave the damn gay people alone, it's not the gay people who are causing bad things to happen. Leave the damn guns alone, a gun is a tool - if you educate people correctly and support them so they grow up to be healthy individuals, they will KNOW the difference between right and wrong and feel supported enough to not have to resort to lashing out. Maybe on the flipside of that people who are rabid gun freaks can understand the awesome power of these weapons and realize that there's not a lot of thought required before you pull the trigger...

Leave it alone, love each other - do the right thing .. is it really that hard?! I don't get it. If we cared for each other then it would make a difference.

Wasn't life a lot simpler when only the people in Colorado knew the news in Colorado? I'm starting to think the big push for "personal" technology in the 70's was a mistake.


Elian... I love you and completely agree with what you have said.

[void()]

I have two things to say:

1) WTF

It used to be that the only thing that would bring this country together is a terrible mass tragedy, now THAT doesn't even seem to make difference.

2) More than half of this country was born out of the idea of manifest destiny, steeped in a culture of violence, we educate people to TAKE what they want..and continuously reinforce that idea with advertising and crap shows on TV that SELL advertising. Is there no soul left? I honestly don't think that this country HAS what it takes to be reverent and respectful to the degree needed to save our society...nature can't fight back - at least until she kicks us in the ass with a massive drought, hurricanes, tropical storms and tornadoes.

Leave the damn gay people alone, it's not the gay people who are causing bad things to happen. Leave the damn guns alone, a gun is a tool - if you educate people correctly and support them so they grow up to be healthy individuals, they will KNOW the difference between right and wrong and feel supported enough to not have to resort to lashing out. Maybe on the flipside of that people who are rabid gun freaks can understand the awesome power of these weapons and realize that there's not a lot of thought required before you pull the trigger...

Leave it alone, love each other - do the right thing .. is it really that hard?! I don't get it. If we cared for each other then it would make a difference.

Wasn't life a lot simpler when only the people in Colorado knew the news in Colorado? I'm starting to think the big push for "personal" technology in the 70's was a mistake.

No surprise this pew rises in agreement. And yes, I'm kind of numb any more. There are probably many whom are.

Is it right to be numb?

It may not be. Is right one is forced to be numb, though? I am not excusing or condoning numbness. I am offering an opinion of justification. While it may not be correct, it is clearly a position which has been sugar coated, and in fact force fed many people.

Preachers use hypnotism. Do you think marketers don't? Tell a lie three times and it becomes true. And you think the government incapable of marketing? You know better.

I should run around shouting out, "Fnord!" And I should more often. Would it serve any purpose? Unlikely.

"Knock, knock, Neo ..."

Keeping on topic, well, I do not think banning guns is an answer. Attacking others, whatever others they may be is not an answer either. Said it before, abolish money, eliminate a chain and grant true freedom. Money can drive folks mad. Look at the recent King George here in America as an example.

Sad it happens. I don't think it will stop until we all do something radically different. And by all, I mean ALL. We are all one and one is all. Yes, it might be Hermetic or Gnostic but it is a Truth and not some lie merely told thrice. Yes, I understand the difficulty in All agreeing. But it is something we must, lest we continue our present course down.

Excuse me, living beckons.

[pepperjack]

`

Brace yourself, it's getting worse;

Fischer Blames ACLU, Supreme Court For Colorado Shooting Massacre - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/fischer-blames-aclu-and-supreme-court-for-colorado-shooting-massacre/news/2012/07/20/44129

and
Hate Group Leaders Use Colorado Massacre To Attack Gay People - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/hate-group-leaders-use-colorado-massacre-to-attack-gay-people/news/2012/07/20/44108



Well... I tapped into a website where the Manchurian Candidate theory was being considered...for personal security reasons,I don't want to name it.

[elian]

I played a game with myself this morning, I spent 10 minutes trying to think of all of the things that made me happy over the last 2-3 days. The sunlight on my face, the fact that it was cold enough that I had to sleep under the covers, getting to go for a walk outside, ice cream.. It worked. I heard from somewhere that it is impossible to feel both gratitude and anger at the same time.

[12voltman59]

It is a sad and tragic thing that this latest incident took place----and its so sad that there is hardly anyplace that one can now go that you cannot let your guard down and not think that some nut job just might start shooting the place up---schools are not safe, churches aren't, the workplace isn't----now even things like movies-what next--we have a big shooting at an opera or a Broadway show???

I hate to say it---but when I left law enforcement---I was glad to not to have to carry a weapon anymore--I had even sold the firearms I still had a year or so back--but now I wished I had not done that and am starting to shop for some new handguns and a shotgun---and I am going to take a CCW course this fall and start carrying again--and sad to say---if I am in someplace that becomes the scene of such an incident and if I don't get shot first --I hope I can take up a position and get a shot on that dumb ass and send him or her off to "meet their maker!"

It was sort of like back on 9/11--I had immediately sort of reverted back to my old military days and felt that even though I was no longer officially in the service--I had just re-upped--and man--if I had been on United Flight 93 and was aware like those people were of what was going on that day---I sure as hell would have been one of those leading the charge against the terrorists.

With the budget cutbacks that many local governments are seeing all over America there are going to be fewer cops on the street to "protect and serve" us---I guess not only do we as individuals have become potential victims of terrorism from without---we now have to worry about those who go off like this kid did and we are not always going to be able to initially rely upon law enforcement to be on hand to save us and our loved ones--we have to take responsibility for our own safety.

I don't necessarily advocate that everyone go out and "ARM UP"--but I tell ya---in this day and time---EVERYONE should seriously consider taking classes in self-defense that range from various forms of Asian martial arts, with AKIDO being a good one with the philosophy of that marital art is to only use the degree of force directed at you by an attacker back upon them--and if you want to really be a bit more hard core---take at least a minimal course in KRAV MAGA--which is the self-defense regime developed by the Israeli Defense Forces----its philosophy is basically--if someone attacks you--TAKE THEM OUT or at least seriously disable them so you can get away.

Courses for both sorts of SD programs are widely available now--I can tell ya---I sure as heck would make it mandatory for any kids I would have to take some sort of self-defense course---especially for girls since so many sick bastards seem to think that females are fair game for them to predate upon in whatever fashion they feel its their right to do so. I would want my girls to feel that they can reasonably defend themselves and to also make them, as it is said in the military and law enforcement--they enter new environments being alert and with "situational awareness."

I am going to get back to training in Aikido and think I am also going to take Krav Magra myself this fall since a place not far from me has programs for both disciplines.

I would surely urge every one of you to at least consider taking at least some sort of basic self-defense program----I think it is clear that no longer can we go about our lives half unaware----we all need to keep up our guard that at any time--we can face some sort of situation like a shooter ripping up the mall, the metroplex theater or a ball game.

Courses like that do impart basic knowledge, that most people lack, in regards to techniques for self-defense, risk assessment, and developing and maintaining a degree of "situational awareness" that I spoke of before when all sorts of out of the ordinary situations arise. Those sorts of things can certainly also apply to the panoply of natural disasters that seem to hit nearly every place with ever increasing frequency.

[elian]

Train if you want but I think it IS really important that you still learn to relax and let your guard down. If we are afraid to go places and do things then the terrorists really have won...what is this, one man who by the looks of things never really learned HOW to play properly..too serious..wound too tight...we have an entire country full of people.

It always amazes me how a few hundred people from one of the most remote areas on Earth manage to inflict fear and pain on hundreds of millions of people thousands of miles away. They do it with a budget so small that I'm not even sure you can measure it in comparison to the US defense budget.

In a lot of ways the war on terror is like the war on drugs, you can point a missle battery at the country but there are pretty good odds that unless someone tips you off, you aren't going to stop one determined person from doing what they want to do. This war is as much about winning hearts and minds as it is about bullets and bombs.

It the same way with these "internal" shooters, we still very much do not understand the value of the social sciences, education for one thing seems to be hit hard by budget cuts, 50% in my state. I guess they would rather build more prisons than actually educate people. Until we get better at recognizing mental distress as an actual problem and understand that spiritual violence is actually a very real thing then I don't see much improving "naturally" - we just need to learn to deal with it.

To be honest I would rather live in a uncertain society with some level of freedom, than live in society where I am "perfectly safe" with no freedom..I mean, we're all going to die some day anyway right? I could step off the curb at the wrong time and get creamed by a bus..

I printed this design on a few T-Shirts w/an inkjet but I actually need to get a few of them professionally done I think..

7148

[elian]

The other part of this is that we have been "at war" for more than 10 years now. I don't know if anyone REMEMBERS what it was like to not be at war, the emotions just keep getting ratcheted up a notch all the time. It is absolutely important that you still learn to play, learn to relax, in spite of all of the media and the horrific things that are going on. For issues like the economy, health care, sexual abuse, mass killing - we keep looking for ONE thing to blame, but what if you are ALL right? These are complex issues and the "blame" is shared in more than one place. Perhaps we need to stop looking to place blame and start looking at the ROOT cause of what ails us?

The economy was ALREADY screwed because of the war, the fact that the banks screwed us TWICE - once when they failed to enforce good business practice and again when we gave them money to hand out loans and they decided to keep that too to bolster their security was just icing on the cake. You all say, "but the government told them to give out those mortgages!!" Since when is the bank lobby so impotent that they can't get what they want out of the government? Of course I can't just blame the banks anyway, there were PLENTY of people with their hands out.. People wanted the dream of owning their own home so badly that they were easily sold on something they couldn't afford.

It hurts, a lot - you are right - we've sold out the future of our children, and then we wonder why the kids feel like they have nothing to lose..

The reason I am not really upset with the health care law is that despite TONS of opposition to doing it Obama and a handful of supreme court justices are doing something to look PAST the war, to one of the REAL problems this country has - that our elected officials SHOULD have been taking care of 10 years ago, but somehow we were distracted/ No it's not perfect. Come up with a better solution and do it..we need to keep moving forward..just standing there screaming "NO" isn't going to accomplish anything.

It hurts, a lot - knowing "we can't afford it" - but what can you do? I suspect more pain in the next few years as our country undergoes a correction, barring Syria doesn't do something even more stupid then they already have. I can't imagine a government ,claiming to be "the country" that has declared it is going to use its chemical weapons against its own people..now THAT is sick.

I don't necessarily think the ship is going to go all the way down, but as the guys on the Titanic said, "Gentlemen, it has been a privilege playing with you".

..and my apologies to men and women who serve and their families for even the appearance of saying the war is not a REAL, issue - we made it a real issue when we committed to that course of action 11 years ago..my thoughts and prayers go out to all.

[elian]

There sure seems to be a lot of greed these days. I have heard that some Native Americans used to practice the ritual of the potlatch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch), where the wealthiest people in the tribe would share what they had with others. The African nation has the concept of "Ubuntu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf4hP3GkABI)".

I DO believe that people should be rewarded for their hard work, but if they are successful also they should recognize that they were successful in part, through the help of their community. It makes sense. Working for me isn't all about profit, it is also about being able to contribute in a meaningful way and give back to people. I grew up in a poor family, now that I am able I do donate a part of my time, talent and money to help others - I hope it makes things at least a little better.

[void()]

In a lot of ways the war on terror is like the war on drugs, you can point a missle battery at the country but there are pretty good odds that unless someone tips you off, you aren't going to stop one determined person from doing what they want to do. This war is as much about winning hearts and minds as it is about bullets and bombs.


Let me interject here a bit honey. Operation Phoenix in Vietnam was specifically about 'winning the hearts and minds' of the opposing forces. Presently, I cannot point to exact documents, but I read of a French gentleman whom studied under Mao. He had been let go by the French because he was deemed too radical, cruel. He showed up in America, in a war college.

Then, our special forces units began counter-insurgency operations. Borrowing from Mao's doctrine of swimming with the fish, these counter-insurgent soldiers would enter villages and live. While there the soldier would postulate the benefits of a democratic society, modern luxuries such as electricity, police, farming co-ops and so on. The soldier would teach the villagers to engage in building new wells, schools, churches, medical facilities, irrigation, better farms and all the while asking about opposing forces explaining it only right the information was offered as gratitude.

The villagers could barter favor/s in exchange for turning in insurgents. This meant some innocent lives were lost as some turned in rival farmers, people whom had in some way wronged them i.e. looked at them the 'wrong' way. Further, it was taken notice of by the real insurgents.

They would enter a village under false pretenses, as a cousin, uncle or friend come to help with more productive activities, and then feed false info to our soldier. These counter-counter-insurgents would torture their own in means to remain hidden from U.S. soldiers. This would then up the kitty so to speak, how could U.S. soldiers cope with an enemy torturing their own people? Well, they would torture the villagers too, villagers would tell the truth, provide info or suffer.

I am reminded of a Japanese proverb. If you seek to bury your enemy, dig two graves for surely you'll bury yourself as well. One succumbs to encroaching upon lowering oneself to an enemy's standards if one tries winning hearts and minds, this way to failure and atrocity only. We are America, better than our enemy. We set the standard, or did. Of course, I suppose having the world's highest rate of serial killers ought to be a clue. But, they still come to America.

HAM - Hearts And Minds may seem a good tactic honey and to some degree it may have a bit of merit, yet it has been proven to backfire and get very ugly quickly. Look at Mexico, ranger squads posing as cartel rivals causing infighting amongst cartels. Possible scenario, a ranger driven cartel taking over all drug trafficking. Hey, it brings in some hefty profit. I'm sure the spookies at the alphabet factory are really seeing that, too. Lovely war on drugs. Using HAM works like a charm, non?

[æonpax]

Bill O’Reilly Suggests Parents At Fault For Kids’ Deaths In Aurora, CO Massacre - During his Talking Points Commentary last night, Bill O’Reilly strenuously argued that the mass shootings in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater were “nobody’s fault.” But he suggested otherwise during a later segment when he gratuitously “explained” that the reason children were killed at the midnight showing of Batman was because “their parents didn’t want to pay for babysitters.” - http://www.newshounds.us/bill_o_reilly_suggests_parents_at_fault_for_kids_d eaths_in_aurora_co_massacre_07212012

O’Reilly is an idiot. Nuff said.



Jerry Newcombe, Evangelical Leader, Says Only Christian Victims Of Colorado Shooting Going To Heaven - An evangelical spokesperson for a religious group known as Truth In Action has claimed that the tragedy in Colorado happened because America has lost its fear of hell.

In an article published on OneNewsNow, evangelical Jerry Newcombe wrote:
I can't help but feel that to some extent, we're reaping what we've been sowing as a society. We said to God, "Get out of the public arena." Lawsuit after lawsuit, often by misguided "civil libertarians," have chased away any fear of God in the land -- at least in the hearts of millions.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/jerry-newcombe-hell_n_1692859.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Just another idiot.

[i_shoot_blanks]

I lived in the Denver area, even accidently jogged one day after work with the Columbine cross country team prior to that tragedy. This was another tragedy caused by some idiot with a gun. I live in Tucson now and we had our tragedy too.
Why is it that when tragedy strikes, a tornado rips a town apart, an idiot kills several people, a huricane knocks down sea walls, terrorists pilot hijacked planes into buildings ...... Why is it that Brian Williams and the other main stream "news" media are suddenly broadcasting from that location. What the hell good are those clowns doing for anyone????

[elian]

HAM - Hearts And Minds may seem a good tactic honey and to some degree it may have a bit of merit, yet it has been proven to backfire and get very ugly quickly. Look at Mexico, ranger squads posing as cartel rivals causing infighting amongst cartels. Possible scenario, a ranger driven cartel taking over all drug trafficking. Hey, it brings in some hefty profit. I'm sure the spookies at the alphabet factory are really seeing that, too. Lovely war on drugs. Using HAM works like a charm, non?

Yes, I didn't start the war, I just live with the consequences.

http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_abani_muses_on_humanity.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLfPtLp3u3Y (http://www.ted.com/talks/chris_abani_muses_on_humanity.html)

[goldenfinger]

æonpax
Re: Tragedy in Colorado
Bill O’Reilly Suggests Parents At Fault For Kids’ Deaths In Aurora, CO Massacre - During his Talking Points Commentary last night, Bill O’Reilly strenuously argued that the mass shootings in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater were “nobody’s fault.” But he suggested otherwise during a later segment when he gratuitously “explained” that the reason children were killed at the midnight showing of Batman was because “their parents didn’t want to pay for babysitters.” - http://www.newshounds.us/bill_o_reil...sacre_07212012 (http://www.newshounds.us/bill_o_reilly_suggests_parents_at_fault_for_kids_d eaths_in_aurora_co_massacre_07212012)


O’Reilly is an idiot. Nuff said.


Jerry Newcombe, Evangelical Leader, Says Only Christian Victims Of Colorado Shooting Going To Heaven - An evangelical spokesperson for a religious group known as Truth In Action has claimed that the tragedy in Colorado happened because America has lost its fear of hell.

In an article published on OneNewsNow, evangelical Jerry Newcombe wrote:
I can't help but feel that to some extent, we're reaping what we've been sowing as a society. We said to God, "Get out of the public arena." Lawsuit after lawsuit, often by misguided "civil libertarians," have chased away any fear of God in the land -- at least in the hearts of millions.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/jerry-newcombe-hell_n_1692859.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)


Just another idiot.

Just love it when you guys tear each other apart, don't have to say a word, just sit back and enjoy.

Just another justified sacrifice from the gun lobby.

Bang Bang. This wont be the last one either.

[darkeyes]

æonpax
Re: Tragedy in Colorado
Bill O’Reilly Suggests Parents At Fault For Kids’ Deaths In Aurora, CO Massacre - During his Talking Points Commentary last night, Bill O’Reilly strenuously argued that the mass shootings in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater were “nobody’s fault.” But he suggested otherwise during a later segment when he gratuitously “explained” that the reason children were killed at the midnight showing of Batman was because “their parents didn’t want to pay for babysitters.” - http://www.newshounds.us/bill_o_reil...sacre_07212012 (http://www.newshounds.us/bill_o_reilly_suggests_parents_at_fault_for_kids_d eaths_in_aurora_co_massacre_07212012)


O’Reilly is an idiot. Nuff said.


Jerry Newcombe, Evangelical Leader, Says Only Christian Victims Of Colorado Shooting Going To Heaven - An evangelical spokesperson for a religious group known as Truth In Action has claimed that the tragedy in Colorado happened because America has lost its fear of hell.

In an article published on OneNewsNow, evangelical Jerry Newcombe wrote:
I can't help but feel that to some extent, we're reaping what we've been sowing as a society. We said to God, "Get out of the public arena." Lawsuit after lawsuit, often by misguided "civil libertarians," have chased away any fear of God in the land -- at least in the hearts of millions.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...ef=mostpopular (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/jerry-newcombe-hell_n_1692859.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular)


Just another idiot.

Just love it when you guys tear each other apart, don't have to say a word, just sit back and enjoy.

Just another justified sacrifice from the gun lobby.

Bang Bang. This wont be the last one either.









It is said and has been said in this thread that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people and it's true in a sense.. but people with guns kill people and firearms enable them to do so in larger numbers and more impersonally from greater distance than in almost any other way... and their existence makes it so much easier to do just that.. the more they are freely available the more likely lunatics and the stressed will do their thing and commit more senseless slaughter.. it happens in societies where guns are not so freely obtainable and will do so again, but never quite with the frequency of places like the US where the right to bear arms is built in with the bricks of psyche, constitution and culture.. the US is a beautiful land with some amazing people but the attachment to firearms really is an ugliness which they should address. Many Americans do feel as I do, but many more are so deeply attached to this right that I fear it will take many more and worse slaughters of the innocent before they finally decide that something must be done.

[elian]

I think it comes from Colonial times Fran when each citizen was expected to be part of a militia if necessary, and I suspect built in as a right just in case the government started getting too "uppity" with their power. After all, we had just won our independence from Britain..

I'm not quite sure what using those arms against the government would really do now since we spend a whole heck of a lot more money on "defense" then what was available back when the law was enacted.

Apparently some people confuse "vigilante" 'with "militia" - you have the right to own firearms, but you also need to use them according to proper law.

I don't dispute that guns are very lethal, I know some people whose hands are registered as deadly weapons as well, but nothing really blocks a bullet.

The interesting thing is though even though the constitution eludes to a militia and provides for the right to bear arms, it is NOT a requirement that every US citizen of "appropriate" age and gender actually serve time in the armed forces, as it is with some other countries. Perhaps if these people had military discipline it would be different?

[æonpax]

It would seem that his tragic event has attracted all the sicko's, from the right at least, to postulate and add comments that support their ideology. Here's one from the Wall Street Journal, owned by "News Corp" which also owns Faux news...



WSJ Columnist Asks if Women Saved By Boyfriends in Aurora Theater Shooting Were Worth It - Wall Street Journal columnist James Taranto’s bad Tuesday night on Twitter is a tale of two tweets. First, Mr. Taranto’s offending post, which started a firestorm. Referring to the three women whose boyfriends saved them from the bullets of a mass murderer in an Aurora, Colorado movie theater on July 20, Mr. Taranto wrote: I hope the girls whose boyfriends died to save them were worthy of the sacrifice. - http://observer.com/2012/07/wsj-columnist-asks-if-women-saved-by-boyfriends-in-aurora-theater-shooting-were-worth-it/


What a misogynistic worm.

Now, something reasonably related.....



Uninsured Aurora Victim Could Face $2 Million In Medical Bills - Caleb Medley was shot in the eye in the Aurora movie theater shooting and remains in the intensive care unit in an induced coma. Medley sustained the terrible injuries only days before his wife Katie was due to give birth to a baby boy they plan to name Hugo. She now joins him in the same hospital — just one floor away — where she was set to be induced.

But even if Caleb makes a full recovery and meets his son, what happened late Friday evening at the movie theater could ruin the young family’s finances. Caleb doesn’t have health insurance, and his medical bills could amount to $2 million, according to his family. - http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/07/24/573441/uninsured-aurora-2-million-medical-bill/?mobile=nc


Food for thought.

[Long Duck Dong]

the more I read about some columnists like james taranto.... the more I question who they would have hid behind, trampled down and used as a shield so they could save their own lives.....

[Paddarick69]

http://reason.com/archives/2012/07/25/outrage-is-not-an-argument

"There's nothing you can do to predict that type of crime," he said. "There's no way you can prevent it."

That message is not reassuring, popular, or politically useful. It just happens to be true."

[DuckiesDarling]

It is said and has been said in this thread that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people and it's true in a sense.. but people with guns kill people and firearms enable them to do so in larger numbers and more impersonally from greater distance than in almost any other way... and their existence makes it so much easier to do just that.. the more they are freely available the more likely lunatics and the stressed will do their thing and commit more senseless slaughter.. it happens in societies where guns are not so freely obtainable and will do so again, but never quite with the frequency of places like the US where the right to bear arms is built in with the bricks of psyche, constitution and culture.. the US is a beautiful land with some amazing people but the attachment to firearms really is an ugliness which they should address. Many Americans do feel as I do, but many more are so deeply attached to this right that I fear it will take many more and worse slaughters of the innocent before they finally decide that something must be done.

Yep, I said it, and I stand by it, and furthermore if someone had been carrying a legal concealed weapon at the theaters it could have prevented with one bullet most of the gunshots that rang out. As, I pointed out, if it wasn't for a gun, he would have found anothe way and he had explosives he had booby traps, he had bombs, he had tear gas, he could very easily have had poisoned gas and killed everyone around. I guess if that had happened you'd be calling for an end to scientific discovery because omg someone might use it wrong. People are people, Fran, and they are responsible for the choices they make.

[Paddarick69]

love the unabashed declaration of gun rights, DD!

[DuckiesDarling]

Grins at Paddarick...wanna see my NRA card? :tongue:

But seriously, using this tragedy to try and start an antigun war is pathetic, keep the focus on the people who were injured and who died and the man responsible who meticulously planned the attack and carried it out.

[Long Duck Dong]

It is said and has been said in this thread that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people and it's true in a sense.. but people with guns kill people and firearms enable them to do so in larger numbers and more impersonally from greater distance than in almost any other way... and their existence makes it so much easier to do just that.. the more they are freely available the more likely lunatics and the stressed will do their thing and commit more senseless slaughter.. it happens in societies where guns are not so freely obtainable and will do so again, but never quite with the frequency of places like the US where the right to bear arms is built in with the bricks of psyche, constitution and culture.. the US is a beautiful land with some amazing people but the attachment to firearms really is an ugliness which they should address. Many Americans do feel as I do, but many more are so deeply attached to this right that I fear it will take many more and worse slaughters of the innocent before they finally decide that something must be done.

screwed up this post, read down a couple of posts

[Paddarick69]

there's a strong libertarian streak in Paddy

http://reason.com/archives/2012/07/25/life-after-the-aurora-shooting

[Long Duck Dong]

It is said and has been said in this thread that guns don't kill people, it's people that kill people and it's true in a sense.. but people with guns kill people and firearms enable them to do so in larger numbers and more impersonally from greater distance than in almost any other way... and their existence makes it so much easier to do just that.. the more they are freely available the more likely lunatics and the stressed will do their thing and commit more senseless slaughter.. it happens in societies where guns are not so freely obtainable and will do so again, but never quite with the frequency of places like the US where the right to bear arms is built in with the bricks of psyche, constitution and culture.. the US is a beautiful land with some amazing people but the attachment to firearms really is an ugliness which they should address. Many Americans do feel as I do, but many more are so deeply attached to this right that I fear it will take many more and worse slaughters of the innocent before they finally decide that something must be done.

couple of points, I want to make......

the top 5 gun related massacres in the world ( the top 4 are in countries where the right to bear arms doesn't exist )

I am safer around criminals than I am in a protest march, I have more chance of being hit by bricks and molotov cocktails than bullets

I am more likely to be injured / killed in a car accident by a drinking driver than shot by a gun...

I am more likely to commit suicide by gun in the us than shoot somebody else....

more criminals have illegal guns, than the military / police and registered gun owners.. and more likely to be shot by a criminal with a gun....

I am more likely to be assaulted and killed than shot and killed.......

lastly I am more likely to protect a pacifist during a war than be protected by one.....

[darkeyes]

couple of points, I want to make......

the top 5 gun related massacres in the world ( the top 4 are in countries where the right to bear arms doesn't exist )

I am safer around criminals than I am in a protest march, I have more chance of being hit by bricks and molotov cocktails than bullets

I am more likely to be injured / killed in a car accident by a drinking driver than shot by a gun...

I am more likely to commit suicide by gun in the us than shoot somebody else....

more criminals have illegal guns, than the military / police and registered gun owners.. and more likely to be shot by a criminal with a gun....

I am more likely to be assaulted and killed than shot and killed.......

lastly I am more likely to protect a pacifist during a war than be protected by one.....



You are, of course, right in much of your post Duckie... but in the developed world the US, being the just about the most gun friendly society, death and massacres by firearms are an every day hazard far more than those societies where there is a much stricter and less friendy attitude towards gun ownership and in general they are much less violent societies.


As to being safer in a protest march I think that uniikely although some do become violent and yes bricks and even molotov coktails do get chucked round.. but for all that in demonstrations by citizens, the likelihood in the west at least of dying or being seriously injured is far less than if we are to mix with the criminals of our world... peaceful demonstrations are often broken up by violent policing and people killed and injured as a eresult of heavy handed methods employed by them.. so you missed that one off your list...


I agree we are probably more likely to be killed and injured in road accidents by drunk drivers but we do have laws in place to eradicate drinking and driving and make our roads safer.. vehicles can be used as weapons but that is not, unlike guns, their primary purpose. We are most iikely to die of natural causes, but we legislate against any human made issue which prevents that to try and ensure that as far as possible the maximum number of people in our societies end their days in a natural manner. No legislation will ever prevent man induced death of another person whether intentionally or by accident, but does that mean because we can never achieve it perfectly, we should not strive to make our world as safe as it can be for the people who live on our earth?


Of course criminals have illegal weapons.. this is true in my country as much as any other.. yet because they do, does that mean we give up trying to prevent that and that the only way is to arm the police as a matter of routine and allow citizens to have access to firearms willy nilly? I argue not, and have always argued so because I believe that by doing so we create a more violent society...


There are many ways to end the lives of people... assaulting them is one... yet is that not against law and banned? As is a person carrying any offensive weapon...because something is less likely to happen to us does not mean that makes it right and should be allowed...


Laws and regulations exist in theory at least to protect people... I will never be convinced that allowing people to carry firearms as a matter of course is a good thing.. it is arguable I agree, but as one who harbours no violent feelings towards any it is beyond my understanding why people want to have such a destructive weapon allowed in the hands of the general population.. and don't talk to me about protection because it doesn't wash...


Finally, it may be true that u are more likely to protect a pacifist than one is likely to protect you.. there are more like you than there are pacifists for a start, but as to whether individually this is the case we cannot say...don't show such contempt for those of us who would reject violence... many such people have died trying to protect others throughout history, and many people still owe their lives to the actions of those who considered themselves pacifists... but one thing to consider... men of violence may or may not be more likely to protect pacifists than pacifist are to protect them.. however, on the other hand, human beings, pacifist or non pacifist.. men and women such as you and I, are far more likely to die or be harmed at the hands of such as your good self than ever at the hands of a pacifist... and many at the hand of the guy with the gun...

[Delilah]

Who the hell needs that kind of guns? I can understand the need to have firearm to protect your home, or rifles to hunt for food. BUT WHO NEEDS THAT KIND OF WEAPON? It should be illegal to own it and it should be strickly for military! What kills me is these John Wayne wanna be's thinking they could have taken that guy down if they were there with their guns. WTF? Can you see through smoke? Who will you be shooting at? This may have happen in a movie theater but this isn't a movie! Stop living in a fantasy world!

[æonpax]

`
I’ve been a gun owner since I was 19. I am trained and somewhat experienced. I have a CCW license. I practice about 4 times a week, outdoors. (I live in very rural area) . I own a .22 (varmint hunting) and 30.06 (civil unrest) rifle plus a 9mm (home) and .44 (wilderness hiking/camping) hand gun. I am very much into protecting my 2nd amendment rights….but…..not for automatic weapons.

The US was founded on a bloody revolution. However, even when we became independent, it was so tenacious, it was in the governments best interest to keep all citizens armed. Those conditions no longer exist but the law remains.

The one thing the US government fears the most is an armed revolution from a united citizenship. Now it has become in the governments best interest in keeping its citizens as fearful of one another as possible.

For this reason alone, even if I were not a gun owner, I would support those that do. I have never lifted a gun in anger (except at this one particular squirrel that no longer exists) or fear and hope I never do.

`
http://i.imgur.com/piipu.jpg

[elian]

Is anyone surprised after hearing about this tragedy that the anti-gun lobby would use this as an opportunity to promote their cause? The NRA also has some very powerful friends as well. who I am sure rallied to do damage control As usual the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I can't quite figure out why the average citizen would need assault weapons although I could see someone purchasing one either legitimately or under the pretense of being a gun collector. Thankfully at least in the case the one gentleman who was managing that gun range flagged this guy as a psycho and was NOT complicit in the shooter's plan.

..and yeah, if some "good citizens" had opened up in the middle of the theater to "protect" everyone it would've been a fiasco. It just goes to show that the majority of gun owners are smart enough not to fall for J Edgar Hoover's "G-Men" image of the "good guys" vs. the "criminals". It's sort of ironic, don't you think - that in his zeal to "stop terrorism" Hoover ended up glorifying the type of violence that he was supposedly so abhorrently against..

I am SURE that there was someone in the audience that had a concealed weapon but they probably had the good sense not to risk further injury in a dark, noisy, smoke filled theater. When I think of it I imagine that it must've rather been like a dizzying, disorienting bad dream, except that it wasn't a dream..my heart goes out to those people, for all people - and somehow I even find myself wisihing for healing for everyone, even the shooter..

One of the victims that survived said it best, "I would tell him I forgive him, and ask if I could pray for him." Of course those words would probably fall deaf on a psychopath - they are wired differently..but it is a powerful message in my mind that at least one of the victims would say that. There is a line in "Amish Grace" - It is NOT EASY to forgive, but if you do not you end up harboring very bad emotions in your heart.

People under tons of stress, grieving, angry, frustrated, sorrowful - reacting in predictable ways...I am not phased by all of the noise, my focus still remains on the material facts, the suffering, understanding the perpetrator and trying to find a just, but not vindictive resolution. The media will try to keep up interest in this for as long as possible but people need to step back and remember that real healing and justice aren't instant like they see on TV...this will have an impact for many years..

I'm just as tired of it as anyone else, I haven't posted in that other thread because I don't know what my sexual capacity truly is, but you want to know what my idea of Utopia, Shangri-La is? Simply put, it's a place where all people follow the golden rule.. where all people still have the capacity to care and somehow find support for each other despite overwhelming odds to the contrary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VUCK2MZty4

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually, Elian, imagine if an off duty police officer was in the theater, someone required to have their gun on them at all times and I would hope you agree that it would be a trained person in handling that situation. They don't just hand out CCW licenses to people, there are courses and things to go through, not everyone who has one is an OMG I get to kill me some fool type of person.

That being said... I am sure that we don't need AR-15s and other assault rifles in the hands of the common person. There is no valid reason for comp shooting, hunting, protection to have an assault rifle unless you are planning to hole up in your house when the zombies come.

[elian]

If the situation was as obscured as I imagine it was, a trained person probably wouldn't have fired either. From what I understand the only thing that saved us in that regard was that his magazine jammed (small miracle) and that gave people an oppertunity to subdue him.

I'll only tell you that a large number of the people in the county where I grew up have concealed carry permits, almost as insurance against what they view as the goverrnment trying to encroach on their rights. I think by and large the majority of gun owners do the right thing, it's just that it's very easy to do the wrong thing if you are swept up by passionate emotions. Some people do not have that understanding of the proper respect that you need for dealing with weapons, they have some sort of romanticized notion of what it means to play solider or something.. It is possible that they lack the maturity to truly understand their actions; that's not an excuse - they still need to take responsibility.

[pepperjack]

`
I’ve been a gun owner since I was 19. I am trained and somewhat experienced. I have a CCW license. I practice about 4 times a week, outdoors. (I live in very rural area) . I own a .22 (varmint hunting) and 30.06 (civil unrest) rifle plus a 9mm (home) and .44 (wilderness hiking/camping) hand gun. I am very much into protecting my 2nd amendment rights….but…..not for automatic weapons.

The US was founded on a bloody revolution. However, even when we became independent, it was so tenacious, it was in the governments best interest to keep all citizens armed. Those conditions no longer exist but the law remains.

The one thing the US government fears the most is an armed revolution from a united citizenship. Now it has become in the governments best interest in keeping its citizens as fearful of one another as possible.

For this reason alone, even if I were not a gun owner, I would support those that do. I have never lifted a gun in anger (except at this one particular squirrel that no longer exists) or fear and hope I never do.

`
http://i.imgur.com/piipu.jpg




You go girl! http://www.kansascity.com/2012/07/25/3724075/assault-raffle-to-boost-missouri.html#storylink=misearch