LGBT military given exemption to march in parades in uniforms

[Long Duck Dong]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/7315549/Pentagon-gives-the-rainbow-light-for-parade

a good move or a bad move ?

while I have no issues with LGBT marching as military personnel, its not a right that is afforded to other members of the military, it is a one off ( at this stage ) exemption, granted to people on the grounds of sexuality...... a complete 180% and now its the LGBT given a right that would not apply to others equally.... and while others may see it as a good move, its a positive move in my eyes, not a good one....

its a LGBT parade, not a gay pride parade http://m.sdpride.org/ NZ reporters are not known for having brains, at times

personally, if it was me, I would refuse to march, as I would want the non LGBT military personnel to have the right to march in the parade in military uniform, be it as LGBT allies, partners of LGBT people or just people that fought to end DADT and any other restrictions against LGBT and if they could not march beside me, then I would not march without them and to me, they deserve the right to march with the rest of us

so there is no true right and wrong... just a personal opinion.....

brothers and sisters at arms, equal in gender, sexuality and rights, lest we forget what we fight for......oorah!

[elian]

Hmm, part of some new marketing strategy no doubt.

My first thought was, "Well duh, I'm not sure that straight soliders would WANT to march in a pride parade" but I see that's not really the issue, as I understand it you are not supposed to "officially" represent the Armed Forces in that way and wearing the uniform while off duty is sort of like an endorsement.. For example, I believe you are NOT allowed to wear it outside of election polling places while off duty because the uniform adds an air of authority and the DoD must be impartial with respect to voting.

There are only two only possibles reasons I can think of that they would allow it.

1) Because of all the bone-headedness in the past regarding LGBT Soliders
2) Because we all know that men look good in uniform

..I do have some reservations about folks in the actual official uniform marching side by side with guys in rainbow colored G-Strings but I'm sure that's just due to my "unenlightened" prejudicial upbringing. The way I actually feel about it if they fought and saw people get killed for this country then they can damn well do whatever they please short of complete evil.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol there is no way in hell that NZ would allow it.... it took over 50 years for the maori battalion survivors to be acknowledged and accorded the right to march as a seperate battalion ( they were disbanded after WW2 ) but only current serving men and women can wear the uniform in a official role

if I was to march in a LGBT parade as a member of the NZ army, there is not a hope in hell that I would have been allowed to do it in uniform....

I could not imagine saying yes to the us military marching in a LGBT parade in full dress, and saying the same right doesn't apply to people of color, when they want to celebrate the anniversary of the civil rights movement in the us as a tribute to the end of desegregation in the US military...... and I will be honest, the people of color have a long and very proud military service history... and the same for the american indians.....

maybe its just me.... but I value the people that stood beside me, and if one of them was to be given special treatment cos of sexuality, then I would demand the others got the same for race and culture......

[darkeyes]

lol there is no way in hell that NZ would allow it.... it took over 50 years for the maori battalion survivors to be acknowledged and accorded the right to march as a seperate battalion ( they were disbanded after WW2 ) but only current serving men and women can wear the uniform in a official role

if I was to march in a LGBT parade as a member of the NZ army, there is not a hope in hell that I would have been allowed to do it in uniform....

I could not imagine saying yes to the us military marching in a LGBT parade in full dress, and saying the same right doesn't apply to people of color, when they want to celebrate the anniversary of the civil rights movement in the us as a tribute to the end of desegregation in the US military...... and I will be honest, the people of color have a long and very proud military service history... and the same for the american indians.....

maybe its just me.... but I value the people that stood beside me, and if one of them was to be given special treatment cos of sexuality, then I would demand the others got the same for race and culture......
Always thought NZ was wos a lil more advanced than the UK socially.. not so it seems...

http://www.zimbio.com/pictures/82BZoxOiJrP/Gay+Pride+March+Through+London
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=military+at+lgbt+pride+uk&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=682&tbm=isch&tbnid=jxWRrmxOJxlU7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.georgenick.co.uk/Pride%25202008.htm&docid=X2m3k2N8Nk68yM&imgurl=http://www.georgenick.co.uk/Images/Pride%2525202008/k%252520Military.jpg&w=400&h=300&ei=1WIJUMfsBNDs0gX08-HDCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=1068&vpy=283&dur=4015&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=117&ty=87&sig=105988826852748038869&page=4&tbnh=153&tbnw=203&start=65&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:65,i:304

Its been ok for several years now in the UK... and not 2 many object..some ole dinosaurs but ther r ole dinosaurs bout so many things... and if the UK will wear it..have no doubt NZ will...

btw..they have recruiting stalls at pride events.. I don't like it much cos of how I feel 'bout the military..but thats just me.. don't like army recruiting offices either but they will b with us for some time to come.. but marching in uniform at pride events? Good luck 2 them...:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

lol fran, I have told you that we are so far advanced, we are going backwards in NZ......:tongue:

if the NZ army march down the road, they do so as a unit, a battalion, soldiers..... not a group of religions, races, cultures, genders and sexualities in a uniform but as military people, so all are equal......and they represent all NZ'ers, not a sub section......

its like a applying of equal rights equally to everybody and standing equally together......

so in a way we are more advanced, the military are not doing the separate rights for sub groups thing... you either stand as part of the military or you take off the uniform and stand with the group of your choosing, as a member of the military, not as a voice for the military or representing them in a official capacity, but that right also applies equally to all members of the military, not some of them....... however that is also a back step in that it is not showing that the military support LGBT, but that is part of the price of treating everybody equally and applying the rules equally to all

interesting foot note..... a recent application for funding and consent in NZ for a hetero pride parade was turned down for the 12th year running....... imagine that lol.... you are not allowed to be hetero, proud and march in a parade to celebrate your sexuality in a country that has anti discrimination laws and equal rights
I found that to be very interesting indeed.....

[csrakate]

btw..they have recruiting stalls at pride events.

OMG!!! Then it IS true....Gays DO recruit! Oh....you meant the military....never mind!!! hehe.....sorry....couldn't resist!!:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

OMG!!! Then it IS true....Gays DO recruit! Oh....you meant the military....never mind!!! hehe.....sorry....couldn't resist!!:bigrin:
Just splattered me m8s screen wiv bacon an' egg butty Mumsie.. wud u stop bein' such a smart arse!!!:kiss:

[darkeyes]

lol fran, I have told you that we are so far advanced, we are going backwards in NZ......:tongue:

if the NZ army march down the road, they do so as a unit, a battalion, soldiers..... not a group of religions, races, cultures, genders and sexualities in a uniform but as military people, so all are equal......and they represent all NZ'ers, not a sub section......

its like a applying of equal rights equally to everybody and standing equally together......

so in a way we are more advanced, the military are not doing the separate rights for sub groups thing... you either stand as part of the military or you take off the uniform and stand with the group of your choosing, as a member of the military, not as a voice for the military or representing them in a official capacity, but that right also applies equally to all members of the military, not some of them....... however that is also a back step in that it is not showing that the military support LGBT, but that is part of the price of treating everybody equally and applying the rules equally to all

interesting foot note..... a recent application for funding and consent in NZ for a hetero pride parade was turned down for the 12th year running....... imagine that lol.... you are not allowed to be hetero, proud and march in a parade to celebrate your sexuality in a country that has anti discrimination laws and equal rights
I found that to be very interesting indeed.....
Here its as much part of the support given by the state and the military as part of the state for the rights of the lgbt.. gr8 progress it seems to me Duckie.. an soldiers sailors an' airpeeps can b part of a nice smart march or as individuals go an do ther own thing in civvies if thats wot they want..

..and doubt if not giving cash 2 a heteropride parade is 2 do with not being allowed to be hetero.. more like recognition that it's not heterosexuals who have a problem in our societies.. but having said that, I'm actually not against local authorities donating if that's what they think is the right thing to do and it can be justified to council taxpayers....

[elian]

I subsequently learned that this is in no way a "permanent" sanction for all gays to march in uniform at off duty events, this seems to be a one time show of faith to the folks participating in this one event..which is perfectly acceptable in regard to the current policy since they got their "commander's permission" to attend. It would seem that this event has been held before, and soliders have been encouraged before to wear their uniform to it - so I think it is refreshing to see that the DoD is acknowledging LGBT people publicly and giving them the A-OK to do it legit, this one time.

[Long Duck Dong]

Here its as much part of the support given by the state and the military as part of the state for the rights of the lgbt.. gr8 progress it seems to me Duckie.. an soldiers sailors an' airpeeps can b part of a nice smart march or as individuals go an do ther own thing in civvies if thats wot they want..

..and doubt if not giving cash 2 a heteropride parade is 2 do with not being allowed to be hetero.. more like recognition that it's not heterosexuals who have a problem in our societies.. but having said that, I'm actually not against local authorities donating if that's what they think is the right thing to do and it can be justified to council taxpayers....

fran, many of the heteros want to celebrate their sexuality, but also be seen as visible people that also want a end to the death grip on marriage, cos marriage is pushed as a hetero / monogamous thing that heteros want...... and their voice is often ignored as LGBT supporters..... they want their own visible voice.....

they are a serious threat to the current law of only heteros can marry, heteros and lgbt can enjoy the civil union......

my remark about not being allowed to be hetero and proud, was aimed at the councils double standards, as they allow boobs on bikes ( breast cancer cause ) the LGBT pride parades ( sexuality celebration ) the sexpo parades ( advertising of a sex expo as a marketing and sales event ) and the super v8 street racing that have cost the rate payers millions.....and the last 2 have faced serious opposition from rate payers.... the last hetero pride parade consent application got no opposition

we pay rates to the local council where we live, ( a yearly property tax, per property, based on land value ) to pay for sewage, water, street repair etc.... its that money that is used to *donate * to parades.......

so for me, fran, its not about how much heterosexuals do or do not have to deal with, its about equal rights... and the right to celebrate their sexuality in the same way the LGBT do

[darkeyes]

Have no objection, Duckie, none at all, 2 anyone celebrating what they are... no objection at all to public financial support if a good enough case can be made.. but I ask you.. just who, overwhelmingly of which sexuality controls the local councils which deny that support? I'd rather that, instead of grumbling at me and the lgbt as if it is something we object to and we who have rejected the request for support,, that you direct your complaint to where it should be more properly addressed...;)

[Long Duck Dong]

mmmm fran...... its not so much about public financial support, as that would come from the public, businesses and community organisations, the money from the council comes from the rate payers, so its not public financial support.....

your comment about being a good enuf case, is correct....* a simple case of heterosexuals are nobodies, LGBT are somebodies *.....and no you never said that, its a observation of society.... celebrating heterosexuality makes no sense to people as they see heterosexuals as having never had to battle for anything or being discriminated against, while lgbt have been for far too long, so we celebrate our freedom from discrimination, our freedom of rights of expression and association.... and we start acting like the people that we claim the heterosexuals have been, for so long and forget that many of our LGBT rights, they have never had as heterosexual rights and still do not have them.....

[darkeyes]

mmmm fran...... its not so much about public financial support, as that would come from the public, businesses and community organisations, the money from the council comes from the rate payers, so its not public financial support.....

your comment about being a good enuf case, is correct....* a simple case of heterosexuals are nobodies, LGBT are somebodies *.....and no you never said that, its a observation of society.... celebrating heterosexuality makes no sense to people as they see heterosexuals as having never had to battle for anything or being discriminated against, while lgbt have been for far too long, so we celebrate our freedom from discrimination, our freedom of rights of expression and association.... and we start acting like the people that we claim the heterosexuals have been, for so long and forget that many of our LGBT rights, they have never had as heterosexual rights and still do not have them.....



You raised the subject of consent and financial support... and whether u like it or not u are talking about public money and public consent, but more, it isn't heterosexuals who have been fighting for recognition by and equality with us for centuries.. it isn't the straight community who have been oppressed as a group because of their sexuality. It is historically they as a group who have done the oppressing and prevented us from living free and equal and often Duckie, even living at all.... and I'll tell u something else... for the greater part around the world.. they still do... even in our own far more liberal societies much of heterosexual society think we are perverts and child molesters and they corrupt and twist the reality to poison society against us. They think we are angels of the devil and an affront to their God and would gladly shove us back into the locked box and chains from which we have only just recently managed to extricate ourselves and would gladly re-criminalise what we are and return us to that box and those chains

That may sound bitter, but it is not meant that way.. it is simply a sad acceptance of how things were and are. In our societies most people are supportive of us and we could not have made progress to where we are without them and so I bear no ill will towards heterosexual society.. if they wish to campaign against inequalities inflicted upon themselves as a sexuality, I will support them as much as I am able and if they wish to celebrate their sexuality I wish them well and encourage that. but as a group they have to recognise their responsibility to others and for the part their (and our own) antecedents played in our suppression and whie they may as a group have s pecific difficulties to do with sex, these are not so much problems of sexuality but arise from the sexual morality, standards and mores of what they believe and the society in which they (and we) live... .and as we in the lgbt differ from each other on so many issues of sex and morality, so do they.

The difficulties of the heterosexual community are not because of who and what they are as sexual beings, but in common with most of our own as human beings, difficulties which are imposed by external factors predominantly of their own making, and to some degree of ours. It is why I believe as I do... as human beings we have huge problems and vast difficulties and differences between ourselves because we all have free will and our own views on how the world should be.. not because of our sexuality, but because those differences create other general and specific problems for each other no matter our sexuality.

There is more than a hint of criticism of the lgbt contained in what u say Duckie... I have no doubt we do deserve criticism for our reaction and attitude to the heterosexual community for sometimes we judge them harshly when we should not.. but while I gladly acknowledge that, it is a natural reaction from a historically downtrodden and abused community with valid resentments, and whose very right to be is still under pressure, but one which we should control better than we often do. The heterosexual community is not under such pressure and so while I support them in their right to be wholeheartedly and their right to exist, and will also do what I can in support of that, you will perhaps forgive me if my main concern is with the community of people who are my own kind and require far more sustenance and public support than ever does the heterosexual community.

[Long Duck Dong]

sighs, here we go again......

fran, rates are NOT public money, they are basically a land tax that goes to the local council, to be used as the council decides, not the rate payer....
the public do NOT have the right of consent for a march....the council does, cos its not a protest, its a organized march......

as for the heterosexual community... stop being so fucking stupid, seriously...

heterosexuals ( not all ) have LOST the right to poly marriages, some heterosexuals want that right returned for all people ( including the LGBT )...... in NZ with the civil union bill, the heterosexuals fought for a right of choice of union or marriage that they never had, that could have been denied to them cos of the opposition to gay and lesbian people having the right to a union.....
the right to marry people of different races and beliefs, had been denied to the heterosexuals for so bloody long, its not funny... and many heterosexuals were forced into marriages against their wishes by their families.....

heterosexuals do NOT have the same rights to celebrate who they are.... they are all put in a box by people.... but many of them have being fighting back against the religious and social restrictions that they have had to deal with for centuries ... and fighting back against the people that put them in a box.......

heterosexual females did not even had the right to vote, but gay and bi males did..... heterosexual females for many centuries had no rights, they were property, not people...and they have been fighting for how long for equal rights and acknowledgement of the value of a woman, for how long ???

you can ignore aspects of life such as slavery etc etc etc.... but it was a aspect of lifestyle for many heterosexuals.... and LGB people often had more rights than them cos many of the LGBT were free people

many of the heterosexual community have been our supporters for so long.... its nice to see how they are just dismissed as people that have not suffered like the LGBT, yet so many heterosexuals have been fighting for the right to be themselves.... and now they have to fight against the rest of the heterosexuals and some of the LGBT that are too pigheaded and narrow minded to realise that they have suffered as much as we have, in many of the same ways....and their fight is far from over as many of them still have less rights than the LGBT....

the right to celebrate who they are as heterosexually diverse people, is just one of the rights, they do not have.......

so fran, tell me about how some LGBT people in this forum, are trying to force a lifestyle on heterosexual monogamous people.... and then try and tell me how wrong the heterosexual people are, when they try and fight back......

equal rights for all, equal treatment for all, the right to be who we are....... there is a reason why its not happening.... cos the people that claim to fight for it, actually don't..... they only fight for what they want to see happen.....

[darkeyes]

sighs, here we go again......

fran, rates are NOT public money, they are basically a land tax that goes to the local council, to be used as the council decides, not the rate payer....
the public do NOT have the right of consent for a march....the council does, cos its not a protest, its a organized march......

as for the heterosexual community... stop being so fucking stupid, seriously...

heterosexuals ( not all ) have LOST the right to poly marriages, some heterosexuals want that right returned for all people ( including the LGBT )...... in NZ with the civil union bill, the heterosexuals fought for a right of choice of union or marriage that they never had, that could have been denied to them cos of the opposition to gay and lesbian people having the right to a union.....
the right to marry people of different races and beliefs, had been denied to the heterosexuals for so bloody long, its not funny... and many heterosexuals were forced into marriages against their wishes by their families.....

heterosexuals do NOT have the same rights to celebrate who they are.... they are all put in a box by people.... but many of them have being fighting back against the religious and social restrictions that they have had to deal with for centuries ... and fighting back against the people that put them in a box.......

heterosexual females did not even had the right to vote, but gay and bi males did..... heterosexual females for many centuries had no rights, they were property, not people...and they have been fighting for how long for equal rights and acknowledgement of the value of a woman, for how long ???

you can ignore aspects of life such as slavery etc etc etc.... but it was a aspect of lifestyle for many heterosexuals.... and LGB people often had more rights than them cos many of the LGBT were free people

many of the heterosexual community have been our supporters for so long.... its nice to see how they are just dismissed as people that have not suffered like the LGBT, yet so many heterosexuals have been fighting for the right to be themselves.... and now they have to fight against the rest of the heterosexuals and some of the LGBT that are too pigheaded and narrow minded to realise that they have suffered as much as we have, in many of the same ways....and their fight is far from over as many of them still have less rights than the LGBT....

the right to celebrate who they are as heterosexually diverse people, is just one of the rights, they do not have.......

so fran, tell me about how some LGBT people in this forum, are trying to force a lifestyle on heterosexual monogamous people.... and then try and tell me how wrong the heterosexual people are, when they try and fight back......

equal rights for all, equal treatment for all, the right to be who we are....... there is a reason why its not happening.... cos the people that claim to fight for it, actually don't..... they only fight for what they want to see happen.....
U patronising gett!. If you read and think about what I said, then maybe you will realise that within my previous post I have covered most if not all of what you are droning on about. I know the fucking world and how shitty it is... it is why I believe and think as I do... and u know it... Read what I said and not what you think I said or are trying to con people I have said... maybe..just maybe if you began to take a more even handed view of things then people might stop considering you such a bloody fifth columnist.

[Long Duck Dong]

fran, ROFLMAO......people can read your reply and decide for themselves what you wrote... I base my opinion, not around what you say in your post, but other posts in the site where you have been expressing your opinion about issues in the site and how you have defended yourself when others have questioned your own actions in the site.....

I replied based around what I know, have seen and experienced myself and cos I am helping with the heterosexual community and the LGBT communities with their work towards the next step which is same sex marriage rights.... and we already know that some of our opponents are the same closeted LGBT in the government that voted against the civil union marriage law......

we will be fighting against the heterosexuals and the LGBT that want to get rid of the civil union altogether, cos some do not want the LGBT to have any rights of union, and others do not want the civil union as a right of choice, they only want full marriage... and that removes a right of choice for the LGBT and the heterosexuals.....

we will be fighting against heterosexuals and the LGBT that view us as sexuality * traitors * cos we walk with the * enemy *... and the most ironic thing, fran... is that most of our opponents are people that talk about equal rights, equal treatment, respect and tolerance for all......

so I know how you think, you have made it clear, but I also know how you act... and its how you act, that is the true measure of a person, not what they say

[darkeyes]

Still twisting to suit yourself Duckie eh? Never mind.. I'll allow you for now to delude yourself but do agree on this one thing.. others will decide whether I am right or wrong as they will do you..;)

[Long Duck Dong]

actually I was explaining my thinking and reasoning as to why I am tired of hearing about how heteros are responsible for so much that is wrong in the world.... when in fact there is often a good chance, it was not just the heterosexuals that made many of the choices that adversely affected the LGBT.....
then I showed how that is apparent to me and many others that are getting ready to fight for the right of choice for ALL nzers, so they have a choice of marriage ( with its requirements ) and the civil union ( which doesn't have them ).....

so would you like to explain your stance that I am twisting things and deluding myself ?

[BiRobb]

2) Because we all know that men look good in uniform

Why is it that only men look good in uniform? I think that women look just as good... in fact they look hot!!!