Questioning the Merits of Monogamy and Non-Monogamy

[Implanted]

In recent months, my wife and I have moved from monogamy to polyamory. There are many reasons people get involved in polyamorous relationships, but I must say that my bisexuality is simply not one of those reasons at all. We both have other partners, but those are also heterosexual relationships.

Like most people who consider themselves polyamorous, I have never been with her other partner, and she has never been with mine. It's a misconception to believe that any three or more of us might end up in the same bed together. Not that it would be a problem if it happened, but the fact is my bisexual girlfriend isn't interested in my wife sexually and I'm not sexually interested in my wife's straight boyfriend.

I also recognize that there is a significant movement among many bisexuals to positively portray themselves as monogamists. I agree that such a portrayal sheds a positive light on bisexuality to the rest of the world, but is monogamy itself really the best option for us? For anyone--gay, straight or bisexual?

I like to think not. We are socially conditioned to act against our natural desires to be sexually active with more than one person. Society considers it a positive commitment to be sexually exclusive to one individual for life, and that is indeed our modern romantic ideal. It's done out of love. What gets me though, is that people assume I don't love my wife as much as monogamous couples love each other. I am deeply in love with my wife and I am entirely thankful that if she has sexual or even loving relationships outside our own, that she will not leave me and I will not leave her. Part of the strength of our bond is that others can't weaken it. We are committed to each other. We support each other, we talk with each other, we have sex like other married couples and actively raised her kids (my step kids) together.

We are in love.
We are not sexually exclusive.

I don't believe that open and honest non-monogamy is detrimental to the political cause of bisexuals as we seek wider acceptance from the world outside. I believe it promotes honesty and openness, which is something much of the world is in short supply of these days.

I also don't believe it is wrong to be monogamous. Society has so entrenched the concept that it has become the conditioned norm, and it is unfathomable for many to question it.
Bisexual monogamists might truly drive social acceptance of our sexuality more so than those of us who are not, but it doesn't mean we should be hidden from sight. It takes a lot to be honest about our sexuality, and for me, polyamory is one aspect of that sexuality.

What do you think?

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

I think to each their own. If it works great for ya'll, then more power to ya..:}
Cat

[Gearbox]

I can't seem to write about monogamy without doing a massive essay on the disgraceful homage to negative emotions that society & monogamy upholds.lol
So I'll cut it short: Being contented to be exclusive to just one person is absolutely fine. Needing that person to be exclusive to you, isn't fine! The exclusiveness of that person being a measure of his/her love/value of you, is disturbing.
IMO.

[tenni]

I agree with a lot that Implanted post about monogamy and bisexuals. It makes sense to me that bisexuals would not benefit to be monogamous and suffer conflict repression and stress. I am inclined however to think that under the bisexuality umbrella that there are several sexualities that look similar but have differing aspects. Some of those who identify as bisexual may be happy in monogamous relationships just as some bisexuals lust for sex but not emotional attachment to same sex partners while other bisexuals develop emotional/sexual attraction to both genders at the same time or over time. I doubt that many other bisexuals are "built best" for monogamy for a lifetime.

I agree with Gear about it is fine if one partner wishes to be monogamous but should not expect monogamy from the other(s). I do not believe that partners of bisexuals who refuse to open the door to non monogamy by permitting the bisexual to have sex with same sex people are exhibiting love. For some of them, they seem to expect sacrifice and repression from the bisexual as proof that the bisexual loves the hetero monogamist. What I think they may really be doing is exhibiting unhealthy possessiveness. Romantic jealousy/possessiveness is a complex series of thoughts, feelings, and actions which follow threats to self esteem. Why re examine their self esteem and possessive issues when society will back up their demand that love is monogamy?

Then there are the people living in sexless marriages. The one partner is no longer interested in sex but expects the other partner to remain monogamous for years without any sexual release beyond self release. Some turn to same sex activity and realize their bisexual nature but fail to talk with the partner not interested in sex. Which one would society support?

When Implanted writes about bisexuals attempting to present bisexuals as monogamous to satisfy the hetero mainstream society's morality I am reminded of the gay movement and similar attempts to present gay men as monogamous to justify same sex marriage. There are an awful lot of gay male couples who are not monogamous and yet remain in a loving relationship with their partner for decades.

There are pluses to monogamy beyond the concern of disease and biphobic beliefs that the non monogamous are all part of the disease cess pools of humanity. I'm sure that someone will state them. ;)

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree with cat.... it comes down to the people in the relationship as to if monogamy is better for them or not...... trying to make non monogamy the norm for bisexuals, is not something that any of us have the right to do... as it pushes our choices for our lives and our relationships onto others.......

I have always been the type of person that has felt that the type of relationship that people are in, is a personal choice and compromise between the people in the relationship..... as they are the ones that best know what they can handle and deal with, not strangers on the net......

we like to use the excuse that nature as the majority is not monogamous, but hey we are human beings, we also do not lick our own asses, hunt and eat our meat raw, have packs where only the alpha male has sex with multiple females and the other males are driven off or denied the right to mate, or fucking the females every year with the intention to impregnate them, carry and fertilize our own eggs etc... well for the majority that is......

relationships are a choice for people, if bisexuals should have the choice not to be monogamous, then their partners should not be denied the right to say no thank you, they do not want to be in the relationship / marriage with the bisexual.... it is equal choice, rights and acceptance and tolerance of the rights of others to make informed decisions within the relationship...... but that requires the bisexual to be open and honest with their partner......and often doing that, gives the partner a right of choice so they are not told the truth and therefore denied the right of choice.....

to say that monogamous natured people are possessive and selfish, yet bisexual people that push monogamous natured people into open relationships are not, is incorrect and one sided...as it is actually a equal issue, monogamous natured people suffer depression and anxiety being forced into a situation that they can not deal with fully.... so consideration is a dual aspect in a relationship / marriage...and shows that some bisexuals are only seeing their own side of things and not the way that monogamous natured people can be adversely affected as well....

monogamy also is not a heterosexual aspect as heterosexuals by large, have a history of infidelity, polyamory, multiple partners etc... unless people want to ignore the religions that allowed for multiple wives / harems, the heterosexuals that want poly relationships, free loving communities, the hippy era and other clear aspects of non monogamy in the heterosexual community.......

so in short, monogamy and non monogamy is a choice between two people in a relationship, it may happen, it may not... but it is best for those two people to choose.... not for us to tell them how they should live according to our beliefs... or force them into living our way by manipulation or lie to our partners about our sexuality and try to justify it to others......as that is the type of bisexuals that people think about when they refuse to date bisexuals and get labeled as biphobic because of it

implanted, good luck with your marriage, I hope that all works out and that both you and your wife are happy and enjoy a long sex life with your partners.

[Coastocoast]

I tend to think anything that people agree to is fine as long as everyone understands the situation. If a person I was with told me they wanted to have sex with others it allows me to make a choice that I am otherwise prevented from making. I am bisexual and would love to be involved with a couple but would not go behind either persons back. I have had it done to me, it was not pleasant and it could have had devastating consequences without my say. Long and the short of it is be honest and do what ever works for everyone involved.

[æonpax]

Sexual monogamy is an idealism.

[darkeyes]

Sexual monogamy is an idealism.
Indeed so me luffly prickly pear, but by no means the only sexual ideal, and by no means the only sexual idyll..;)

[tenni]

Post 5
"to say that monogamous natured people are possessive and selfish, yet bisexual people that push monogamous natured people into open relationships are not, is incorrect and one sided..."

Monogamy is a social construct of learned behavioural expectation involving learned attitudes/values. It is not a naturally instinctive biological state in humans.

All monogamous monosexuals are not possessively jealous and this is shown when some who have practiced monogamy re examine it when entering a relationship with a bisexual. " Jealousy is an emotion and typically refers to the negative thoughts and feelings of insecurity, fear and anxiety over an anticipated loss of something that the person values. (ie monogamy and being loved) Love is a strong affection and may involve sexual attachment. The attachment may become possessive and a jealous attachment. When one is jealous/possessive there is the possibility that one person is trying to control the other rather than love in the sense of wanting the best for your partner. It may be a complex set of self esteem issues and misunderstanding(about bisexuality versus heterosexuality) that brings jealousy and possessiveness forward.

It may have been the poster's experience/interpretation that he has met bisexuals push monogamous hetero sexuals to open their relationship. Another way to look at it is that it may be that the bisexual is trying to get the hetero monosexual to understand bisexuality and in the mind of the hetero monosexual there may be no reason that the hetero thinks that they should. It is stressful for the hetero monosexual and may create cognitive dissonance as they face the question of monogamy. That is not pushing but trying to educate the hetero monosexual to re examine their values about relationships and especially how they see love with the bisexual.

"as it is actually a equal issuse"
Yes, of course. As long as one of the people is not controlling and possessively jealous of the other, it is equal. If possessiveness is a factor that jealous person often refuses to re examine monogamy and the needs of their partner. They may insist upon the status quo of monogamy and that the bisexual stop even discussing the issues. (its "gross to even think of their husband having sex with another man" etc...ie homophobia).

As far as seeing/discussing issues from a bisexual perspective, I personally expect a bisexual website to explain/discuss/develop such issues from a bisexual perspective and not the hetero monosexual perspective. People do not come to this website to learn/understand about heteroseuxal monosexual attitudes and behaviours.

[Long Duck Dong]

actually tenni, its more of a acknowledgement that women got sick of * man makes the rules and the money and is castle of his home, therefore the woman stays home, bears the young, and cleans the house and does what she is told, while the man takes a mistress *......

women wanted equal rights and got them * for the most parts *.... its just that some dinosaurs cling madly to the idea that its still * the bi male makes the rules, has the other partners and is king of his castle, therefore the woman stays home, bears the young, and does what she is told, while the bi male is seeing his other partners *

its called equal rights, treatment and choices..... something that tends to be ignored a lot when people talk about monogamy, but the bisexuals with the open relationships and permission to take other lovers, tend to talk about something called communication, compromise and understanding between partners and something else called * RULES * a good number of the ones who do not have permission, have also talked about communication with their partner but a inability to reach a compromise....

that is the key to getting people to understand their bisexual partners and their monogamous partners..... cos it takes BOTH people to have a open mind in the relationship, cos it takes two people to make a relationship work, not one.....and partners ( BOTH partners ) want to be treated with respect and understanding and have their own points of view acknowledged.....

btw, the biggest issue with your stance, is that you, yourself, do not practice what you preach, you merely try and tell others how to live in a manner that you are not...

[Gearbox]

actually tenni, its more of a acknowledgement that women got sick of * man makes the rules and the money and is castle of his home, therefore the woman stays home, bears the young, and cleans the house and does what she is told, while the man takes a mistress *......

women wanted equal rights and got them * for the most parts *.... its just that some dinosaurs cling madly to the idea that its still * the bi male makes the rules, has the other partners and is king of his castle, therefore the woman stays home, bears the young, and does what she is told, while the bi male is seeing his other partners *
That's pretty sexist to both genders there LDD, and also pointlessly scathing of bi males. You should take a peep out of that cave once in a while and notice that not ALL women are helpless baby popping housewives in the 1930's under the thumb of Victorian bi husbands. It's not just males who have probs with monogamy, and not just bi's either, as you well know.

When talking of equality and respect for partners, it should be noted that the monogamist says,"I want YOU to be..", and the non monogamist says "I want MYSELF to be....".


“Confusing monogamy with morality has done more to destroy the conscience of the human race than any other error.”
George Bernard Shaw.;)

[tenni]

"btw, the biggest issue with your stance, is that you, yourself, do not practice what you preach, you merely try and tell others how to live in a manner that you are not..."

Excuse me? wtf :eek2: REMEMBER discuss the issue and not the person.
What do you mean by this rather confusing (illogical?) :confused: accusation about me? You only know what I post and I am rather selective about self disclosure.

Personally, I am a Bononbo philosophically :) :love87:at the present time. I give sexual intimate affection where I see a need and a desire between all parties.

http://www.bisexual.com/forum/entry.php?62-Bonobo-Bisexuals-Reality-Mixed-With-Satirical-Fantasy

I am a single bisexual man and non monogamous at this time but you do not know how many monogamous relationships that I have been in..do ya dumpling? :love87::)

I hear from bisexual men what they are dealing with and I do not judge.(kinda an unfunded personal field research study...lol;)) I research socio psychological findings to try to understand the issues. I do not present myself as a (former) counsellor with advice as that would be unethical in my country and violate the professional code of conduct.

Sorry if my words come across as preachy. If people are both happy in a monogamous relationship that is fine. If a bisexual is happy in a monogamous relationship that is great! There are many many who are not happy in a monogamous relationship with a hetero monosexual.

[Long Duck Dong]

I am well aware of it gearbox, its why I do not narrow bisexuality down to the bi male nor say it is the monogamous female that is jealous and possessive as tenni has a habit of doing....

my remark was essentially that it is not the dark ages any more..... its a time of equal consideration, compromise, communication for both partners..... if we are going to try and share with people about bisexuality then we need to include the female and trans bisexuals... stop making out that it is always the hetero / monosexual female that is at fault....embrace the idea that some people are naturally monogamous and others are not, there are times that a compromise can not be reached..... that monogamy is not a social heterosexual construct forced on people cos nature has a monogamous aspect to it as well as the polyamous, and I am pretty sure that animals do not go to church or say wedding vows of monogamy and nor is there a social construct and morality code in the animal world.......and that both partners are the ones that need to reach a understanding in their relationship / marriage... and respect their right not to date bisexuals without being labelled as biphobic, biased and bigoted

like many people, in the forum, I would like to see more relationships and marriages work either as monogamous or open / poly relationships and marriages where both partners are fine with the choices and decisions..... but the way to do it, is not to ignore 2/3 of the bisexual community and rubbish their partners......and so my remarks to tenni stand.... .

its why I am accepting of both monogamous and open / poly relationships and marriages and I support them all.... I view neither as wrong as they are right for others.... and when we try to push a open / poly relationship and marriage as the bisexual norm.... we are basically telling people like bidaveDtown that he is wrong for not conforming to the bisexual *norm * cos he is in a monogamous relationship as a bisexual man, by choice.....and if we apply tenni's thinking, his wife is a selfish, jealous, possessive heterosexual monosexual that is not considering his needs as a bisexual man and ignoring the fact that dave chose for himself......

imagine being in a relationship as a bisexual, saying that you are not interested in sex with other people and being told that you are bisexual, so get out there and start fucking other people...there have been a few threads with bisexual females being expected to sleep with other females and pressured to do so by their partners and who can forget the one of the female that was trying to push her partner to fuck other men when he did not want to.......

there have been other bisexual members that tried the open lifestyle and struggled with it and returned to the monogamous aspect.....are they wrong too for not living the bisexual lifestyle ? or are they right for living according to the way they are happy....

at the end of the day, no matter what is said, people are going to say that monogamy is wrong..... when the truth is they can not handle monogamy and that doesn't make monogamy wrong nor does it make monogamous people wrong.... it just means that they can not handle the lifestyle that you want and view as right for you, in the same way that you can not handle the monogamous lifestyle cos you are not monogamous and that doesn't make you wrong either.....

where it is wrong is when one partner expects the other partner to exist in a situation that is not what they want for themselves, and that is when it is always the monogamous person that will be blamed, and that is wrong......

[Long Duck Dong]

"btw, the biggest issue with your stance, is that you, yourself, do not practice what you preach, you merely try and tell others how to live in a manner that you are not..."

Excuse me? wtf :eek2: REMEMBER discuss the issue and not the person.
What do you mean by this rather confusing (illogical?) :confused: accusation about me? You only know what I post and I am rather selective about self disclosure.

I am a single bisexual man and non monogamous at this time but you do not know how many monogamous relationships that I have been in..do ya dumpling? :love87::)

I hear from bisexual men what they are dealing with and I do not judge.(kinda an unfunded personal field research study...lol;)) I research socio psychological findings to try to understand the issues. I do not present myself as a (former) counsellor with advice as that would be unethical in my country and violate the professional code of conduct.

Sorry if my words come across as preachy. If people are both happy in a monogamous relationship that is fine. If a bisexual is happy in a monogamous relationship that is great! There are many many who are not happy in a monogamous relationship with a hetero monosexual.

1/ I am in a near 5 year relationship with a heterosexual female, I have to practice what I preach about communication, compromise, consideration and respect of partners rights and choices..... and yes the fact that my partner is in the US and I am in NZ, means that there is a lot of trust and honesty in the relationship.....

2/ yeah I am a former counsellor but my advice is not unethical or would violate the professional code of conduct as I am no longer doing it in a professional capacity, so the rules do not apply....

3/ I would have thought that there are many people that are not happy in open or monogamous relationships with partners of all sexualities.... I was not aware that only bisexual people are the ones that deal with some issues, damm I will have to be more close minded about the people around me....

4/ discuss the issue and not the person if you are going to say that, don't do the same thing yourself..... points at 2/.... it makes you look like a self righteous hypocrite...

[tenni]

Post 14
Dumpling sweetie
It is good that you accept monogamous and non monogamous choices.

With regard to your three points in post 14.

1/ I am happy for you that you, as an asexual, are content/happy with your celebate, long distance relationship. Even when you have been given permission to have sex with others you chose not to. Many of us have had long distance monogamous relationships for five years or more and still managed to have wild passionate love nearly every weekend...I know that I have. It was no where near as long distance and I simply would not remain celebate if it had been. How does that relate with regards to what I wrote about the issues of monogamy/non monogamy with bisexuals, jealousy, possessiveness? Your accusation about me preaching what I do not do?

2/ What makes you think that I was writing about you? I used the pronoun "I"...not LDD or "you". (in context to your accusation about me telling other how to live ...preach etc.)

3/ Look at point 2.

[NSeaExplorer]

I am new to this forum, and have been thinking quite bit about this topic. While there is no right answer or formula for everyone, of course, it's helped me to have a topographical map of the landscape of options, agreements, and commitments that are possible. I have found this book http://www.amazon.com/Opening-Up-Creating-Sustaining-Relationships/dp/157344295X helpful, and perhaps it will be of benefit to others. Apologies if this is "old news" and redundant to others here. I assume there may be some who, like me, are only recently looking at these issues.

I also recommend Sex at Dawn http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Dawn-Stray-Modern-Relationships/dp/0061707813 I have read the previous edition some time ago, this one appears to be modestly updated. This one helped me to look at the connection between prevailing moral standards and how those preconceived (and often unconscious) influence how we see nature and its underpinnings.

[biguy1940]

i believe anyone that wants to pursue his/her pleasures with another, same sex or opposite, and still wants to maintain a double standard is showing themselves to be either very insecure or terribly selfish, which makes me think i wouldnt want to be with them anyhow...

[tenni]

Post 13
"when we try to push a open / poly relationship and marriage as the bisexual norm.... we are basically telling people like bidaveDtown that he is wrong for not conforming to the bisexual *norm * cos he is in a monogamous relationship as a bisexual man, by choice.....and if we apply tenni's thinking, his wife is a selfish, jealous, possessive heterosexual monosexual that is not considering his needs as a bisexual man and ignoring the fact that dave chose for himself......"

Ok...well since my username is being referred to, I will respond to this section. My previous post has the number wrong ie #3 is #4

Whether a bisexual is married or single, I suspect that a bisexual factor (not a norm) would be to be aware that monogamy may be very difficult to adhere to for an entire life for many self disclosing bisexuals who are not also asexual. Bisexuals should be very sensitive to this tendency when thinking about entering a relationship with a strict monogamous believing heterosexual monosexual. I am unaware of a study that reports norms as far as bisexuals and monogamy are concerned though. I personally think that it is wise for any bisexual to never agree to monogamy for life imo. Keep the door open for discussion in the future with any potential monogamous agreement even though the bisexual may think that they can ignore their bisexual needs.

BiDave is far more progressive and may speak for himself as to whether he thinks that a bisexual should agree to a lifetime of monogamy without any options for the future.

As far as possessive jealousy in a partner impacting the relationship there is strong evidence regardless of the sexuality issue. Add the bisexuality issue and mainstream condemnation of non monogamy and you end up in the dilemma often reported here and factors that I have written. Again, we are here as a site about bisexuals even though the OP stated that his non monogamous decision does not include his bisexuality at this point. The factors are not the same for many bisexuals compared to hetrosexual non monogamous scenarios imo .

[Long Duck Dong]

Post 14
Dumpling sweetie
It is good that you accept monogamous and non monogamous choices.

With regard to your three points in post 14.

1/ I am happy for you that you, as an asexual, are content/happy with your celebate, long distance relationship. Even when you have been given permission to have sex with others you chose not to. Many of us have had long distance monogamous relationships for five years or more and still managed to have wild passionate love nearly every weekend...I know that I have. It was no where near as long distance and I simply would not remain celebate if it had been. How does that relate with regards to what I wrote about the issues of monogamy/non monogamy with bisexuals, jealousy, possessiveness? Your accusation about me preaching what I do not do?

2/ What makes you think that I was writing about you? I used the pronoun "I"...not LDD or "you". (in context to your accusation about me telling other how to live ...preach etc.)

3/ Look at point 2.

actually I would like my partner here, I love and miss her.... and she loved the full on hardcore anal, vaginal, oral sex with bodies and toys when she was here last time......something she has posted about..... and cos once she is back we are going to look at opening the relationship up cos she is open to experimenting as well..... that is something we have talked about cos one of the side effects of taking the meds to correct my lack of sex drive ( the asexual nature ) could be a hyper sex drive.. and we already have the people we are both ok with, as extra * partners *.....and she is aware that I am emotionally, mentally and sexually attracted to males, females and trans / intersex people cos I have been open and honest with her all the way thru the relationship so that she has a complete right of choice as to what she will or will not allow.... and that has allowed me to see if the relationship was right for me........

and as I have shown, I apply the same principals that I talk about with others, to my own relationship...... and it has worked for the benefit of both of us.....

I faced the same issues as many others with coming out to my partner, she may have said no, she could have said yuck and I could have accepted that then ignored her and went with others any way.... but I wanted OUR relationship to be built on the aspects of honesty and openness, so I took the risk........I am one of the lucky ones..... but I still had to talk with her, it was the only way I would know one way or the other

[elian]

Hmm, I think that it depends on the people involved and the circumstances of the situation. Some people will be comfortable with polyamourous/open relationships and some will not. I never expected it, but my second "adult" relationship was with a couple - and at that time in my life it is exactly what I needed. The experience of genuinely being loved by both a man and woman. I tried very hard to be considerate of both of their feelings, I'd like to think I did a good job, but it was hard work. For me it's hard enough to put energy into a relationship with a single partner let alone more than one. I would have to have a fundamental shift in my concept of what a relationship is and can be to consider anything more than a single partner at a time. Sex is fun, but I would like to ultimately have a lifelong companion. It grates on my nerves when people think that men who like men will sleep with anyone under the sun.

It honestly took a lot of time for me to get over the fact that people could love without feeling jealous..because that is all that I remember seeing when I grew up.

[Implanted]

I tried to post something more to this thread yesterday but I somehow timed out and lost what I had been working on. Frustrating. Then I went back and started reading the thread as it has evolved and discovered that it had since dissolved into personal attacks and name calling.

I expected a higher standard

I'm new to this site and value what is here and the discussions that come up, but I'm already finding a level of disrespect and outright insults directed at individuals that I find repulsive.

Although I am new here, I am not a stranger to online forums and have run some in the past. Often is the case that I have been asked to remove something that someone said from a thread, but I have refused.

Why? Because when people say stupid things, other people notice. It is a reflection of character. If you want to learn what someone is like, read what they say. If they have a tendency to be negative and insulting, guess what? That person is probably negative and insulting.

Name calling and accusations reflect more on the one who posts them than they do on the ones at which the posts are directed.

[Long Duck Dong]

When talking of equality and respect for partners, it should be noted that the monogamist says,"I want YOU to be..", and the non monogamist says "I want MYSELF to be....".


that statement is flawed, gearbox.... it works for you as you are only seeing your point of view and applying it to others.... I will apply it to all 4 types of relationships
.
the non monogamist is saying to their monogamous partner, I want myself to be *..... so it is basically, I want myself to be able to explore my sexuality and I want myself to able to do it and I want myself to be ok with the idea that I change our relationship for ME *

the monogamist person is saying to their non monogamous partner * I want YOU to be * ...so it is basically I want you to be ok with the idea that we are monogamous, I want you to be the monogamous partner that you were when we entered the relationship

the non monogamist is saying to their non monogamist partner, * I want myself to be happy and content, I want myself to be happy and content, I want myself to be content and happy *

the monogamist person is saying to their monogamist partner * I want you to be happy and content, I want you to be faithful, I want you to be monogamous *

where exactly is the equality and respect and where is the selfishness ??? as most bisexuals are going to say that the monogamist is selfish, the bisexual is not...yet, using your statement, its actually the reverse.......

its why general statements are 99% one sided and from one point of view, and that is why your statement appears right to you........but to a monogamist person, its a one sided, selfish, self serving opinion.... and that is also why a lot of people do not want to date bisexuals.... as they are NOT seeing that there is a number of bisexuals that are very considerate, tolerant and respectful of their monogamous partners that give them permission..... and there are a lot of bisexuals that do not see the monogamist partners that give the bisexual partner, permission.....

a question gearbox.... all the monogamous partners in this site that have said yes to their partners having other lovers... are they selfish monogamists and wrong for being monogamous.... all the bisexuals in the site with monogamous partners that talked with their partners and reached a open and working understanding with their relationship, are they doing it for themselves or for themselves, their partners and their relationship / marriage.......

[Long Duck Dong]

In recent months, my wife and I have moved from monogamy to polyamory. There are many reasons people get involved in polyamorous relationships, but I must say that my bisexuality is simply not one of those reasons at all. We both have other partners, but those are also heterosexual relationships.

Like most people who consider themselves polyamorous, I have never been with her other partner, and she has never been with mine. It's a misconception to believe that any three or more of us might end up in the same bed together. Not that it would be a problem if it happened, but the fact is my bisexual girlfriend isn't interested in my wife sexually and I'm not sexually interested in my wife's straight boyfriend.

I also recognize that there is a significant movement among many bisexuals to positively portray themselves as monogamists. I agree that such a portrayal sheds a positive light on bisexuality to the rest of the world, but is monogamy itself really the best option for us? For anyone--gay, straight or bisexual?

I like to think not. We are socially conditioned to act against our natural desires to be sexually active with more than one person. Society considers it a positive commitment to be sexually exclusive to one individual for life, and that is indeed our modern romantic ideal. It's done out of love. What gets me though, is that people assume I don't love my wife as much as monogamous couples love each other. I am deeply in love with my wife and I am entirely thankful that if she has sexual or even loving relationships outside our own, that she will not leave me and I will not leave her. Part of the strength of our bond is that others can't weaken it. We are committed to each other. We support each other, we talk with each other, we have sex like other married couples and actively raised her kids (my step kids) together.

We are in love.
We are not sexually exclusive.

I don't believe that open and honest non-monogamy is detrimental to the political cause of bisexuals as we seek wider acceptance from the world outside. I believe it promotes honesty and openness, which is something much of the world is in short supply of these days.

I also don't believe it is wrong to be monogamous. Society has so entrenched the concept that it has become the conditioned norm, and it is unfathomable for many to question it.
Bisexual monogamists might truly drive social acceptance of our sexuality more so than those of us who are not, but it doesn't mean we should be hidden from sight. It takes a lot to be honest about our sexuality, and for me, polyamory is one aspect of that sexuality.

What do you think?

ok addressing directly your original post...... and for much of what I am going to say, I am not going to come at it from the aspect of same and opposite sex lovers and partners, but from the aspect of non monogamy.....

I agree with the statement that open and honest non-monogamy is NOT detrimental to the bisexual community political cause....that it is a aspect of bisexuality ( and other sexualities ) it can also be a triad, a structured poly relationship such as yours and so many other levels of non monogamy......

what is detrimental is the way that we keep insisting that society doesn't share our vision as a good part of society does and actively does it and the way that we make it out to be a bisexual aspect, when its not bisexual only.... again the non monogamy aspect ONLY

standard crosscultural sample (dated 1967) shows that an overwhelming majority of traditional cultures in the world (83.39 percent) practice polygyny, with only 16.14 percent practicing monogamy and 0.47 percent practicing polyandry
now granted they are talking about small tribes and groups and sub gatherings..... but I have a reason for posting it.....

as society has expanded and grown, we have developed a system based about marriage and monogamy, lol just ask any divorce lawyer, and what has made it entrenched in people, is the legal system more than the social system, as society has changed ( drop in marriage rates, increase in divorce rates ) our laws still restrict people based around single and marriage status.... you change the legal system to encompass marriage to more than one person, you will put such a dent in things and shake hell out of society, and the reason is not so much that you made multiple marriage legal but that you made more than one partner relationships / marriages more acceptable

in the countries that have same sex marriage laws, its become so much harder for people to go against the LGBT, as they are now equal in a lot more respects, even if they do not marry same sex peoples... and more and more rights are starting to change as more laws change and make everybody equal ( in legal terms anyway ). that is why people fight law changes so much, it removes a lot of their power against the LGBT

at this stage, bisexual monogamists may well be the ones that are holding the balance of power in the drive for social acceptance of our sexuality... but that is because we do not have the poly married bisexuals taking up some of the reins.... and as long as people are able to dismiss us as bed hopping people, we will struggle.... so poly marriage would be a big power shift, we just lack the numbers and even with the support of so many other allies.. it would take a miracle to pull off a law change.....

so we are left with the bisexual monogamists in their committed marriages as one of our strongest points, as they are the ones that are seen as the committed bisexuals ( not that they stand out that much )...... and the poly bisexuals are not being taken as seriously and been dismissed as swingers, orgy goers and people that can not commit to partners.....and therefore socially not worth any attention......

however, the truth about people like you, is far different.. but how do you show people that aspect ? how do you present that aspect of the bisexual lifestyle in a way that would have people sit up, open their eyes and say * OMGWTFBBQ ? its real ? its true ? it works ? * .... we pull that off... along side the bisexual monogamists... and you will see society for the most part, be more accepting of our sexuality... just not the way that some of us behave.... but hell a lot of the bisexual community do not condone the behievour of some of their own......and that is why I believe that its actually poly marriage rights that would make bisexuality more acceptable than any other thing

as for the desire for same and opposite gender partners, thats a entirely different issue..

[Gearbox]

that statement is flawed, gearbox.... it works for you as you are only seeing your point of view and applying it to others.... I will apply it to all 4 types of relationships
.
the non monogamist is saying to their monogamous partner, I want myself to be *..... so it is basically, I want myself to be able to explore my sexuality and I want myself to able to do it and I want myself to be ok with the idea that I change our relationship for ME *

the monogamist person is saying to their non monogamous partner * I want YOU to be * ...so it is basically I want you to be ok with the idea that we are monogamous, I want you to be the monogamous partner that you were when we entered the relationship

the non monogamist is saying to their non monogamist partner, * I want myself to be happy and content, I want myself to be happy and content, I want myself to be content and happy *

the monogamist person is saying to their monogamist partner * I want you to be happy and content, I want you to be faithful, I want you to be monogamous *

where exactly is the equality and respect and where is the selfishness ??? as most bisexuals are going to say that the monogamist is selfish, the bisexual is not...yet, using your statement, its actually the reverse.......

its why general statements are 99% one sided and from one point of view, and that is why your statement appears right to you........but to a monogamist person, its a one sided, selfish, self serving opinion.... and that is also why a lot of people do not want to date bisexuals.... as they are NOT seeing that there is a number of bisexuals that are very considerate, tolerant and respectful of their monogamous partners that give them permission..... and there are a lot of bisexuals that do not see the monogamist partners that give the bisexual partner, permission.....

a question gearbox.... all the monogamous partners in this site that have said yes to their partners having other lovers... are they selfish monogamists and wrong for being monogamous.... all the bisexuals in the site with monogamous partners that talked with their partners and reached a open and working understanding with their relationship, are they doing it for themselves or for themselves, their partners and their relationship / marriage.......
Your actually saying that one individuals right to self, is selfish if another views it as an infringement of theirs!:eek2:
Sorry, but NO! Their view of their rights to have their partner be monogamous is flawed. They have no such right! It can only be agreed to, complied with until that individual changes their mind (if ever).
The many who have dropped monogamy when their partners changed their mind, are no longer monogamous, as monogamy relies on the partners will as much as theirs. They are unselfish and respectful of their partners own choices.
Those who have denied their partners choice to practice non exclusive sex, are the opposite.

Have to say again that monogamy isn't a bisexual vs heterosexual or a male vs female thing. Nor is monogamy natural to Humans, or a step out of the dark ages. It's very much the opposite.
But practised without motives that include jealousy, insecurity, possessiveness, and spite, and in spite of social conditioning, self repression and objectification it's workable.
As already been said, it depends on the people involved, same as any other relationship. Which depends on the emotional stability of those concerned.

[tenni]

Several of us have questioned the merits of monogamy for bisexuals in particular.

I may be missing the points about the merits of monogamy for bisexuals?

Would those who believe in monogamy for bisexuals give the merits in summary?

Is the only point that the heterosexual monosexual society will accept bisexuals better if they are monogamous in an opposite gender relationship? Is that for both same gender couples too?

[elian]

I have to agree with one point made here, that is the only reason I am okay with open relationships is because everybody involved knows. My health and the health of my partner is more important than my desire for sex. If someone will cheat on their spouse, what stops them from cheating on multiple partners?

Narrow minded I suppose but it's where I am at right now.

[Long Duck Dong]

Your actually saying that one individuals right to self, is selfish if another views it as an infringement of theirs!:eek2:
Sorry, but NO! Their view of their rights to have their partner be monogamous is flawed. They have no such right! It can only be agreed to, complied with until that individual changes their mind (if ever).
The many who have dropped monogamy when their partners changed their mind, are no longer monogamous, as monogamy relies on the partners will as much as theirs. They are unselfish and respectful of their partners own choices.
Those who have denied their partners choice to practice non exclusive sex, are the opposite.

Have to say again that monogamy isn't a bisexual vs heterosexual or a male vs female thing. Nor is monogamy natural to Humans, or a step out of the dark ages. It's very much the opposite.
But practised without motives that include jealousy, insecurity, possessiveness, and spite, and in spite of social conditioning, self repression and objectification it's workable.
As already been said, it depends on the people involved, same as any other relationship. Which depends on the emotional stability of those concerned.

I am actually saying that it comes down to open and honest communication where possible

Their view of their rights to have their partner be monogamous is flawed. They have no such right! It can only be agreed to, complied with until that individual changes their mind (if ever). EXACTLY.... it can only be agreed upon by both partners..... that is the right of EACH person in a relationship.... one person wanting to change the relationship for themselves, has to respect the fact the other person has the right to say no thank you or yes ok, but that right ONLY extends to the relationship, NOT the person.... so when a relationship is changed, each person has the right to say yes or no to continuing the relationship........that is what I have been saying......

so yes, a person doesn't have the right to say after 20 years that their partner has to be monogamous... but they do have the right to say that they will not be in a relationship with a partner that is sleeping with other people as that is not the relationship they entered into nor one they wish to stay in.... and the same thing applies to you... you have the right to say to your partner that no thank you, you are not going to suddenly live the monogamous lifestyle after 20 years of multiple partners as it is not the relationship you entered into or one you wish to stay in....... so its a two way street gearbox.....

the trouble with that, is that people do not want to lose what they have grown so used to... so we see the threads about how the partner has no choice but to * conform * to their partners wishes..... when the truth actually is, they have a choice that they do not exercise....nobody is forcing them to stay in the relationship / marriage... they choose to.....

as for monogamy not being natural for humans, it has never been proven that some people are not monogamous natured.... in the same way that nature has been found to have monogamous and poly aspects, heterosexual / bisexual / homosexual and other sexuality aspects.... and that is why the nature argument fails as people only select the aspects of nature that fit their stance, and ignore the rest......

we have a understanding, it depends on the people involved, something we both agree on...

The many who have dropped monogamy when their partners changed their mind, are no longer monogamous, as monogamy relies on the partners will as much as theirs.
They are unselfish and respectful of their partners own choices.
Those who have denied their partners choice to practice non exclusive sex, are the opposite.

your statement is one sided in that you are only seeing the monogamous partner respecting their partner, or the monogamous person not respecting their partner

monogamous natured people can live in a open relationship as long as they are able to retain their own monogamy stance of not wanting other people.....it is why we see people compromise with their partners.... it changes the relationship to a open one, but it doesn't change the person, they are still monogamous natured, just flexible
BOTH partners reach a agreement that is respectful of their partners, a compromise and a understanding that is respectful of the feelings of both partners and their thoughts and feelings.....as they both wish to retain a working, happy and contented relationship / marriage.....

it is why I talk so much with DD and hear her out.... cos we want a relationship that works for both of us.... she wants marriage, I perfer a handbinding. she is monogamous natured but flexible, I am bisexual but more relationship oriented than casual sex orientated..... so we both work towards a middle ground, but with the understanding that we both will constantly need to adjust things time and time again... so its not a case of her being unselfish and respecting me, but us working together as a partnership and respecting each others needs, wants and desires......


so in short, I agree that people do not have the right to force their partners to be monogamous, but they have the right to say that they do not want to be in a open relationship, in the same way that a open minded person doesn't have the right to force their partner to open up the relationship but has the right to say no I do not want to be in a monogamous relationship.....

[Long Duck Dong]

Several of us have questioned the merits of monogamy for bisexuals in particular.

I may be missing the points about the merits of monogamy for bisexuals?

Would those who believe in monogamy for bisexuals give the merits in summary?

Is the only point that the heterosexual monosexual society will accept bisexuals better if they are monogamous in an opposite gender relationship? Is that for both same gender couples too?

the merits are simple...
it allows monogamous bisexuals to be monogamous and not be pushed to have other partners if they do not want to.....
that requires people to be open to the fact that not all bisexuals want to be with other people, or people of the same or opposite gender / sex.....

it allows bisexuals that want to have a monogamous relationship with a partner of each gender/sex, to have that relationship and it allows their partners to do the same...

monogamy allows bisexuals to decide if they want monogamy in their lives or not, it allows them to compare the differences between lifestyles.....

monogamy is essential for bisexuals in that if they want to leave the multiple partner lifestyle, they can enter / change to a monogamous lifestyle....

monogamy is also essential in that it gives some bisexuals something to fight to remove as a opinion of choice for others....

incidently I have said a number of times that the fight for rights is not always about equal rights, it can be about removing the right of choice for others...... hence why I do not blame that removing the rights of others is a good move as it affects the bisexual community as well.....

its not about getting the heterosexual monosexual society to accept us, it is about reaching a point of where we can live together with compromise and a understanding that we can agree to disagree.....
its more about being in a society where we are not being told how to eat, live, breath, shit and think by other people, and a society where we do not the same thing to others.... as the world is full of diversity but people have a habit of pushing their own views as the ones that the rest of the world should conform to..... IE religions, governments, greenies, peta..... and some of the bisexual community...

if we want society to be more accepting of us, we need to be more accepting of society.....it just doesn't mean that we have to agree with what society says or do what they say.....and that is the way that society feels about us

[Implanted]

I'm glad to see that there is a whole lot of conversation going on about the issues of monogamy and non-monagamy, and I'd like to address a few of them next. While I am no expert on polyamory and non-monogamy, I have the benifit of dating a polyamory activist who has much stronger knowledge than I.

First, I'd like to define polyamory as I see it and compare/contrast it to polyandry, polygamy, and even monogamy.
Post #23 brought up statistics from the middle of last century showing the frequency of non-monogamist relationships world wide. It's true that many cultures do practice polyandry and polygamy, but those differ greatly from what has become known as polyamory in the last 30 years or so.

Polyamory "is the philosophy and practice of having simultaneous loving relationships with other adults with the knowledge and consent of all." (http://www.vanisle-polyamory.com/)
The original definition of polygamy was similar to this in that it referes to people with multiple partners, but more often than not, polygamy today dirives ideas of male dominated cultures that subjigate women and allow for men to have multiple wives--essentially the definition of polygyny. Polyandry is the opposite--women have multiple husbands and there may be no interaction between the men.

Key to polyamory is egalitarianism--the concept that men and women have equal rights within the relationship.

Polyamory is not parner swapping, swinging, or even having an open relationship although there are several polyamorous relationships that allow for any one or more such activity.

I'm drawn in particular to what was said at the end of post #20, "It honestly took a long time for me to get over the fact that people could love without getting jealous..." It's amazing, but it does happen.

Poster #20's example of his first relationship is rather unique. Many couples dream of someone they can both fall in love with and have as a sexual partner. It doesn't happen very offten. So seldom in fact, that there is a term for it in polyamorous circles. A 'unicorn' is that one ultimate partner that is pefectly suited for both (or more) members of a previously formed couple. Truth is, I'd love to find that one person who fit's perfectly with my wife AND I, but you know what? Unicorns don't exist. A threesome is one thing, a unicorn is a whole-other (mythical) animal.

Polyamory is also not about swinging or sleeping around with just anybody. I'm picky about my partners and so are my wife and my girlfriend. If I want to be intimate with someone, I bring it up to my wife an discuss it with her first. I'll talk to my girlfriend about it too, but we've previously agreed that she doesn't require the same level of negotiation as is needed with my wife.

To poster # 16, I haven't yet read "Opening Up," but I would like to when I get the chance. "Sex at Dawn," however is one of my favorite books. Not not only is the topic interesting (exploring how non-monogamy might be more natural in the human animal than was previously understood), but the writers are quite entertaining as well. I'll come back to this book in a little bit.

I was also intrugued by what was said in post #4, "I am inclined however to think that under the bisexuality umbrella that there are several sexualities that look similar but have differing aspects." Indeed, I'm sure there are--and this touches on post #3 as well. I know of at least one group of polyamorous people who are in a mono-poly relationship. One of the members of the relationship considers himself to be monogamous. His girlfriend is polyamorous. They live in the same home with her kids and her husband who is also polyamorous. He only wants to be involved with his girlfriend and with no one else, but he knows that she still loves her husband and may choose to take on other lovers. It's an intersting balance, but the three adults create a loving household nearly indistiguishable from any other family household. Interesting to note that the married portion of this triad consists of two bisexual people.

Similarly, my daughter is bisexual and married to a woman (gotta love Canada and it's acceptance of same sex marriage), but she and her wife are monogamous. That may change in the future, but for now, that is where they are most comfortable.

My daughter chooses to be monogamous because of her wife's comfort level. She is in love. Had she fallen in love with a man, the situation might be the same. The fact is, they discuss things like polyamory. They know what it is about and they believe that one day they may move in that direction, but for now, while one is attending university, they will remain monogamous.

So that brings up the question posted in #25: What are the benifits of monogamy, especially to those of us who consider ourselves bisexual? My supposition is that the biggest draw is security. Then again, with monogamy so deeply entrenched in our western society, it's sometimes hard to consider what it might be like to share your love with more than one person. It does take a lot of work to maintain a relationship with one person, let alone two or more. Simplicity and practicality on a daily basis might be a good reason for monogamy as well. There are all kinds of reasons monogamist bisexuals remain that way.

Poster #26 brings up a good point when he said, "If someone will cheat on their spouse, what stops them from cheating on multiple partners." Good point. A cheater is a cheater is a cheater, no matter what coat he or she wears. Communication is key in every relationship, mono, poly, open or any other type. His approach is rather pragmatic if you ask me.

I too would like to hear more from people who value monogamy over any other type of relationship. What keeps you grounded? How does that translate where one of you may be bisexual?

Lastly, I'd like to encourage people to pick up the book, "Sex at Dawn" by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha. The book challenges the societal norm of monogamy with antropological and scientific research that leads the authors to believe that our earliest modern human ancestors may have been extremely promiscuous as compared to us today. Sex may very well have been what held society together. What bond is greater than the bond of passion?

[Long Duck Dong]

very interesting post, implanted and thank you for posting it

I, myself tend to be drawn more to polyamory than polyandry.... but polyandry is more the type of relationship that I would go for...... I better explain that....

as my partner DD knows, I follow the old celtic ways, so my views are more community minded than individual when it comes to relationships and a polyamory relationship would have to be built on the foundations of respect, honesty and communication as each partner has different skills and abilities that need to be recognized... while I can live comfortably with a male and female partner, I again default to the celtic ways and a obscure aspect in that a male can stand beside a female but not equal to her even tho they are both equal

a simple way to understand it, is that any male can get a female pregnant... but it is the female that gives birth... her value is greater...she can do without me but I can not do without her....

and I am more comfortable with two or more females but in the style that you live.... not in the style of I want a harem where I am head honcho..lol

its very hard for most people to understand as most people live the individual life and build their lives based around themselves and their own skills, abilities and strengths and also they build their relationship around themselves....... ....

a way of looking at it is having a garden / animals / hunting.... a communal / poly group would work as a team to ensure that they have all they need..... independent people would have to juggle all three... and if they involve others, want it done their way but so would everybody else.....

polyamory in the dark ages was a way of ensuring the survival of the clan and in a situation that everybody is equal in aspects as part of the clan... there was not as much of the BS we see today of * get ya eyes off my woman, she belongs to me, get ya hooks out of my man, hes mine *, there was more respect, understanding and communication ..... monogamy was a aspect but not really a aspect for women, specially in a situation where there was limited women...
the trouble is that people look at it from the point of view that there was endless fucking.. they forget it was with a purpose.... reproduction.......

it is not something that we have to worry too much about today except in the fact that we are facing the results of over population....

monogamy was more of a option in situations where there was more women and people were free to have a partner that they felt stronger towards than others.... love... and we see the same thing today, people that forsake all others for the one partner that they want to be with and they have no interest or desire in being with others, a aspect that gets ignored a lot by people that think monogamy is wrong, as they may have the interest in the one partner they want to be with, but they still have a interest in others

there are many arguments against monogamy.... and 99.99% of them ignore a persons preference to be monogamous... its like there is a refusal to accept that some people are simply not interested in multiple lovers / partners, so people use reasoning like its social conditioning / morality / religion etc...... and they totally ignore the fact that the way they feel themselves is cos its a aspect of how they are... there is no bisexual conditioning / bisexual morality code / bisexual religion etc that *brainwashed * them into wanting other people.....

I also do not share the view that polyamory / bisexuality / homosexuality etc are a form of rebellion, sexual immorality or perverted behievour...... but I do accept that some people do it as a form of rebellion for whatever reason.... and I am willing to assume its cos they are tired of being told how to live....

I can see your points of view and relate but I can see so many other points of view and relate also

part of the reason why monogamous people tend to avoid things like this... is the underlying understanding that regardless of what they say, reason out or understand.... is the understanding that monogamy is wrong... you have even implied it yourself in your posts...... and as much as you and others want to talk and listen and explain, the message is still clear, monogamy is wrong... they are wrong for being how they are and for most of them, they are naturally that way..

not everybody is bi, hetero, gay, not everybody is poly or monogamous... but some are...... and for each aspect, there is many that tell them that they are wrong, confused, delusional.......

and so the cycle continues

[Long Duck Dong]

sorry implanted

something I wrote.... comes across the wrong way, and when I realised, it was too late to edit it

part of the reason why monogamous people tend to avoid things like this... is the underlying understanding that regardless of what they say, reason out or understand.... is the understanding that monogamy is wrong... you have even implied it yourself in your posts...... and as much as you and others want to talk and listen and explain, the message is still clear, monogamy is wrong... they are wrong for being how they are and for most of them, they are naturally that way..

you did not imply that monogamy is wrong..... what you said was

Lastly, I'd like to encourage people to pick up the book, "Sex at Dawn" by Christopher Ryan and Cacilda Jetha. The book challenges the societal norm of monogamy with antropological and scientific research that leads the authors to believe that our earliest modern human ancestors may have been extremely promiscuous as compared to us today. Sex may very well have been what held society together. What bond is greater than the bond of passion?

I was referring to the book and how it refers to the societal norm of monogamy.... as that continues to imply that monogamy is not a natural aspect in some people but a conditioned reality..... which is a reoccurring statement in this thread and others.. ...

[Gearbox]

monogamous natured people can live in a open relationship as long as they are able to retain their own monogamy stance of not wanting other people.....it is why we see people compromise with their partners.... it changes the relationship to a open one, but it doesn't change the person, they are still monogamous natured, just flexible.
If that was the definition of 'monogamously natured', there would be about 50% less threads on here, private e-mail accounts would be safe, and discussions of changing relationships to open would involve a brief, "Hey sugar! I fancy screwing others. That ok Babes?", "Yes honey! I'm happy here with a book giving my cock/vadge a breather.Play safe and have fun hun! Love you!xxxxxxx".:rolleyes:
That doesn't happen often.lol What the more typical 'monogamously natured' person would do is closer to hate than love, more denial than understanding, more psychotic than sympathetic.
The latter has somehow been given support and the former given discredit by societies conditioning over the years. But it hasn't changed our Human nature to include monogamy.
Yes we can do monogamy. But it's more of a 'sacrifice' of natural sexual instincts than a sexual instinct. Emotional monogamy is separate for many.

[DuckiesDarling]

Short and simple, Cat had the right of it. As long as everyone is happy in the relationship then anything goes. Why is it so hard for a certain few to understand on here? My bed is my bed, not yours. My relationship is my relationship, not yours. I am happy being faithful and monogamous and even though my wonderful bisexual partner and I have discussed other options we will always try to deal with things with just ourselves first. Monogamy is not some evil slavery and Polygamy is not some evil cult. The sooner the two viewpoints get expanded the better, there is room for everyone and every ideal as long as each partner is comfortable with the decisions. The opening post was a good one that got derailed by pettyness. No one should have to hide who they are but no one should be forced to pretend to be something they aren't either. So again, Cat had the shortest and the most correct response.

[tenni]

Actually, I do not think that Cat answered the intent of the thread. The thread is not about everyone being happy in a relationship then anything goes(although that would be the plus if all agreed as to monogamy or non monogamy). It was about questioning the merits of monogamy and the merits of non monogamy according to the title.

Merit is defined as the quality of being particularly good especially to deserve praise or reward.

With that meaning understood, what is worthy of praise and reward of monogamy or non monogamy?


The OP restates in post 29 that it is not merit but "benefit" of monogamy and he states that it is security. Merit and benefit are not exactly synonymous but changing the term to benefit is interesting. Sorry, if this is too semantical Mr OP. Benefit is defined as something that promotes or enhances well being; advantage.

Security is the degree of protection against danger, damage or loss. Individuals need to feel that they will not lose the other person and the love of the other person whether it is monogamous or non monogamous....if love is involved. Both monogamous and non monogamous relationships may exist without love being involved. Friends with benefits may be mongamous or non monogamous. Even fuck buddies may be monogamous or non monogamous.

If security is the benefit of monogamy and merits reward, what is that reward Mr OP? Is the reward that the non monogamous person is expected to submit to the wishes of the monogamous person and remain monogamous if they are to remain in a relationship?

I agree with post 29 that it is possible for a relationship to have one person living a monogamous lifestyle and the other being non monogamous. That would merit a reward in that both would be happy. It would require certain traits and not be jealous of the other partner as I've stated. The problem as pointed out by Gear is that society and some monogamists tend to impose monogamy on others rather than practise monogamy for themselves and be happy for the non monogamist to feel fulfilled by being non monogamist. I am uncertain but I think that an argument is made to counter this by stating that the non monogamous expect the monogamous person to become non monogamous? I do not think that is appropriate any more than a monogamist expecting the other partner to remain monogamous or end the relationship either.

[DuckiesDarling]

Actually, I do not think that Cat answered the intent of the thread. The thread is not about everyone being happy in a relationship then anything goes(although that would be the plus if all agreed as to monogamy or non monogamy). It was about the merits of monogamy and the merits of non monogamy according to the title.

Merit is defined as the quality of being particularly good especially to deserve praise or reward.

With that meaning understood, what is worthy of praise and reward of monogamy or non monogamy?


The OP restates in post 29 that it is not merit but "benefit" of monogamy and he states that it is security. Merit and benefit are not exactly synonymous but changing the term to benefit is interesting. Sorry, if this is too semantical Mr OP. Benefit is defined as something that promotes or enhances well being; advantage.

If security is the benefit and merits reward, what is that reward Mr OP? Is the reward that the non monogamous person is expected to submit to the wishes of the monogamous person and remain monogamous if they are to remain in a relationship?

I agree with post 29 that it is possible for a relationship to have one person living a monogamous lifestyle and the other being non monogamous. That would merit a reward in that both would be happy. It would require certain traits and not be jealous of the other partner as I've stated. The problem as pointed out by Gear is that society and some monogamists tend to impose monogamy on others rather than practise monogamy for themselves and be happy for the non monogamist to feel fulfilled by being non monogamist.

Actually, Tenni, I am finding it's more and more the reverse here. Can't we just agree that the only people who can make a decision in a relationship are the people in the relationship? Whether it be a couple or a triad or more, they are the only ones who can determine whether or not they are monogamous, partially monogamous, negotiated monogomous or flat out non mongomous. There are many shades of grey to consider and there is something out there that works just fine for ALL partners involved. That's all I'm saying, is that everyone needs to have their opinions heard and if people don't agree to only one way of doing things, then look for other solutions. Monogamy is not evil, neither is polygamy, neither is anything in between the two. Respect for people is the key and communication is paramount. As the old saying goes it takes one to be the shoe the other to be the carpet when one walks over another.

[Long Duck Dong]

gearbox,

I am simply saying that monogamous natured people can live in a open relationship, as proven by the partners in the site that are monogamous natured themselves, do not want any other person than their partner and have given permission to their partner.... but they are open minded monogamous natured people and able to adapt to new situations ( one of 8 sub groups )

closed minded people are not able to adapt as well, if at all

its the same thing with bisexuals.... some can function in a monogamous or open relationship and they are generally open minded.... the close minded ones struggle badly in monogamous relationships....

I am referring to two different types of open and closed minded here......

1) open and closed minded in regards to exploring new ideas, thinking outside of the square etc
2) open and closed minded in regards to the ability to adapt and change in different situation ( it means they can't handle the situation, not that they won't try it )


a 1 and 2 open monogamous natured person will think about giving permission and be able to handle their partner having other partners
a 1 open and 2 closed monogamous natured person will think about giving permission but find they can not handle the open relationship
a 1 closed and 2 open monogamous natured person will not consider giving permission but can adapt to a non monogamous situation
a 1 closed and 2 closed monogamous natured person will not consider it and nor would they handle a non monogamous situation

a 1 and 2 open non monogamous natured person will think about monogamy and be able to handle a monogamy situation
a 1 open and 2 closed non monogamous natured person will think about monogamy but struggle with being monogamous
a 1 closed and 2 open non monogamous natured person will not consider it, but can adapt to a monogamous situation
a 1 closed and 2 closed non monogamous natured person will not consider and nor would they handle a non monogamous situation


so as you can see, things are not as cut and dried as people keep thinking....... and that is often because people think about themselves only and how they deal with things and handle them....

[tenni]

"Can't we just agree that the only people who can make a decision in a relationship are the people in the relationship?"

I basically agree with this statement. My interest as a bonombo bisexual is that I meet so many bisexual men where a decision has not been possible. The monogamist remains rigid of their expectations and have in fact expected the non monogamist to adhere to monogamy if what is left of the relationship is to continue. It is very sad actually and we bonobo bisexuals meet this all the time. Yes, I know that I am making up a new bisexual category...lol silly me. I'm an artsie and inclined that way ;)

[DuckiesDarling]

"Can't we just agree that the only people who can make a decision in a relationship are the people in the relationship?"

I basically agree with this statement. My interest as a bonombo bisexual is that I meet so many bisexual men where a decision has not been possible. The monogamist remains rigid of their expectations and have in fact expected the non monogamist to adhere to monogamy if what is left of the relationship is to continue. It is very sad actually and we bonobo bisexuals meet this all the time. Yes, I know that I am making up a new bisexual category...lol silly me. I'm an artsie and inclined that way ;)

ROFLMAO.. umm I will so not comment on hirsuteness....

[tenni]

You just kind of did make that reference and I do not think that we have a relationship to see the humour in your post as innocent jesting. Respect begets respect. ;)

Well, I know a few bonobo bisexuals who are smooth as a baby's bum..so no that is not what makes one a bonobo bisexual. :)

Ambassadors of affection regardless of gender, status and more...yep. ;)

http://www.bisexual.com/forum/entry.php?62-Bonobo-Bisexuals-Reality-Mixed-With-Satirical-Fantasy

[Vuillardgr]

Well said. Whether someone is hetero, bi, polyamorous, etc. Everyone has to determine what's best for them and live their lives. It's important to know yourself. If that self is monogamous, so be it. Doesn't make you selfish or jealous. To be labeled as such is insulting and unfair. The argument could be made that poly people are selfish and greedy because they refuse to be with just one person. I don't judge and neither should they. If you want to be poly . Be happy and do it. Just don't look down on monogamous people as being held back by some primitive territorial instinct. Believe it or not , most of us have determined what kind of relationship we need and want in our lives without being brainwashed by mainstream society. I believe we all deserve more understanding... poly and mono

[void()]

I have to agree with one point made here, that is the only reason I am okay with open relationships is because everybody involved knows. My health and the health of my partner is more important than my desire for sex. If someone will cheat on their spouse, what stops them from cheating on multiple partners?

Narrow minded I suppose but it's where I am at right now.

And this is highly similar in view/s me and my wife, C, have. It's why we do not knowingly engage with those whom cheat. If someone can lie about being with others like that, they can lie about other factors of greater risk/s. Not to boast nor flatter but in knowing you, I know your line of work requires a certain level of health maintained and there are checks in place. This was helpful guidance and remains so for me, as yes I'm really selective about lovers.

For any whom need know, elian is a highly paid sponsored porn star whom makes two or three films a month. ;) At least he does in my imagination. I do know his actual work though. And it does obligate one to remain healthy. Despite my attempts to pervert him unto the dark side, he remains only slightly off kilter of pure. *sighs* "must try more"

[Gearbox]

ite that are monogamous natured themselves, do not want any other person than their partner and have given permission to their partner.... but they are open minded monogamous natured people and able to adapt to new situations ( one of 8 sub groups )

closed minded people are not able to adapt as well, if at all

its the same thing with bisexuals.... some can function in a monogamous or open relationship and they are generally open minded.... the close minded ones struggle badly in monogamous relationships....
That's a very odd statement, relating 'open mindedness' to a closed relationship. It's not normally the aim of open mindedness to seek restriction. It's the opposite.
As the many bisexuals on here who have asked for an open relationship while in a monogamous one will tell you, that it often takes a lot of patience, understanding, dialogue etc to get the monog partner to open up their minds to non-exclusivity. Not the other way around!
The non-monog don't open up their minds to monogamy, but simply agree not to act on their natural sexual urges should they arise. Seldom do they post about how wonderful it is to live in denial. But often those ex-monog post about how much better it is to live without the fears they once held.:)


I am referring to two different types of open and closed minded here......

1) open and closed minded in regards to exploring new ideas, thinking outside of the square etc
2) open and closed minded in regards to the ability to adapt and change in different situation ( it means they can't handle the situation, not that they won't try it )
What your missing from your versions of 'open mindedness' are the emotional gears behind acceptance and rejection of ideals.

so as you can see, things are not as cut and dried as people keep thinking....... and that is often because people think about themselves only and how they deal with things and handle them....
That is exactly what we all should do, with honesty and self awareness. I realise you meant that as a 'negative', but it's the most productive thing I've ever read from you.:bowdown:
Buddha should be careful of mishaps dethroning him.lol

[Long Duck Dong]

its odd cos people think in terms of either one or the other...not both at once.......and do not realise that a person can be both......as there is more than one aspect to the situation

I agree with what you are saying about the non mono agreeing to mono... but with a tweak... when the natural urges stop, it changes the dynamics..... its a bit like the people that talk about no longer having the desire for the same sex or opposite sex, they general stop having sex with the gender they no longer have the desire to have sex with

think of it in terms of women that hit menopause and the hormonal changes alter the sex drive to the point that it disappears.... the same thing can happen to guys......
you suddenly have no desire for sex.. there is no urges and cravings....and there can be any number of reasons why.....

the reason why you never really hear about it, is that nobody talks about that happening with themselves, I tried and look at what happened to my threads about asexuality and dealing a asexual nature.... I was talking about a very real aspect that can affect males and females and trying to bring awareness of the issue to the site since so many people talk about the woman no longer having a interest in sex but the male having the interest.....

I also am not missing the emotional aspects as I tend to tend to focus more on the emotional and mental in people, rather than the sexual... as the emotional and mental are far more complex than the sexual....and the effects of the emotional and mental states on relationships define 85% of relationships..... but not casual sex / fuck buddies...lol but try talking about emotions and mental states in the forum, they are a lot harder to define

so as you can see, things are not as cut and dried as people keep thinking....... and that is often because people think about themselves only and how they deal with things and handle them....

that was a general statement about people.... you do the very same thing yourself and so do many others when they talk about their needs and how their partner should respect them... you go to different sexuality forums and you will see the same thinking.... the partner should respect MY needs and wants...

so it was not negative as all, it is a observation about human nature and supported by so many psychs, experts, professionals etc, and proven by normal, ordinary people like you and others......

MY rights, MY needs, MY wants, MY desires and how others should respect them...... and yet everybody else is saying the very same thing in regards to themselves.....
its why you and others keep arguing that your rights as a bisexual non monogamous should be respect by your partner..... and I am saying, your partner is thinking that as a non bisexual, non monogamous, their rights should be acknowledged by you and not brushed off as if they do not matter, cos you hate people doing the same thing to you

no matter what is said in the site and the forum,... you will continue to believe that a monogamous partner should change for you.... but that you should not change for them..... its not negative, its not nasty, its pretty much what you have said so many times in the forum...... and when the partner will not change for you, you will not be impressed...... but you also have stated time and time again, why should you change for your partner...... and no, I am not having a go at you or saying you are wrong.....just trying to say that a year down the track, that we would be having the same conversation, UNLESS something changed, like you suddenly lost the urge and desire for sex.... and then your stance may be much the same, but not so much about you any more, but others.....

[tenni]

"you will continue to believe that a monogamous partner should change for you.... but that you should not change for them..... i"

No, that is not the points that have been made by myself, Gear and a few others.

The monogamous person does not have to change. They may remain monogamous. They just have to accept that the non monogamous person will not be monogamous. The monogamous person should not expect monogamy from the non monogamous partner. They should accept that the non monogamous will do just that. It is the same with women who are in menopause losing interest in sex. That is fine. What is not reasonable imo is that they expect their partner (husband) to refrain from sex as well other than masturbation. They do not very often give permission for him to find sex with another person.

Remember. Each of us may only decide for ourselves whether we are going to be monogamous or non monogamous. We should not impose our will on others. That much we can agree with?

[Long Duck Dong]

no body has to change for anybody, its why we have cheating and infidelity, divorce and seperation..... cos there are times that things just do not work out the way people want...... and people are not happy that they can not turn the other person into what they want them to be......

so nobody has to accept that their partner is non monogamous... they just do not have to accept what their partner wants to do... and what is interesting is the non monogamous people that try and push their partners to be become non monogamous as well, I have never seen you in those threads calling the non monogamous person selfish for trying to change their partner......

you may have seen me speak out about cheating and infidelity but you have also seen me post being supportive of a cheating partner cos you posted in the thread questioning why the person was not being condemned by us, but you were not supportive of the person yourself after telling us that we should be supportive of people that cheat......

sex is one of the most selfish things in human nature...despite the fact that it is a shared experience..... and its interesting to see how people will go the extra mile for sex and who they will shit on, stab in the back, betray, lie to and use... for sex......including their own partners, the ones they claim to love, honour and respect and they often do it cos they can not get their partners to change...... but there is another side to cheating... the need to feel like a person matters to somebody, anybody because they are not treated like a person, much less a partner by their own partner......

the act of a partner to give permission for the love of their lives to be with others takes a incredible amount of trust, understanding, faith..... or somebody sick of being hassled for sex... or hoping like hell they will not lose their partner if they give permission......either way.... that doesn't matter, what matters is getting laid..... how selfish is that ?

its a shame that this is a open forum in one respect..... cos I dread to think how many people have read this thread and others, as guests... and decided that they will never date a bisexual and risk being labeled biphobic... than get into a relationship and be told that they are selfish cos they want a committed and faithful partner.....

nobody is wrong for being non monogamous.... nobody is wrong for being monogamous.... where the issue lies is in the understanding that non monogamy makes monogamous relationships wrong....

[Long Duck Dong]

now to make it very painfully, bluntly and absolutely clear.......tenni

The monogamous person does not have to change. They may remain monogamous. They just have to accept that the non monogamous person will not be monogamous. The monogamous person should not expect monogamy from the non monogamous partner. They should accept that the non monogamous will do just that. It is the same with women who are in menopause losing interest in sex. That is fine. What is not reasonable imo is that they expect their partner (husband) to refrain from sex as well other than masturbation. They do not very often give permission for him to find sex with another person.

Remember. Each of us may only decide for ourselves whether we are going to be monogamous or non monogamous. We should not impose our will on others. That much we can agree with ?


being monogamous or non monogamous as a single person outside of a relationship / marriage, is each persons right and choice...

entering into a monogamous or non monogamous relationship / marriage is each persons choice.....and so is their right to say no to entering into them......

staying in a relationship / marriage with a partner when circumstances change for better or worse, is the right of each person....

choosing to have sex with a partner, other person or nobody at all, is a choice of each person

choosing not to go outside of the relationship is a choice of each person


it is not lack of permission that stops people having sex with other people, that is proven by cheating.... what stops people is themselves and their desire to keep the life they have grown used to

so tenni, no I do not agree to something that is vague and easily twisted into any number of meanings depending on the situation... and I am refering to this
Remember. Each of us may only decide for ourselves whether we are going to be monogamous or non monogamous. We should not impose our will on others. That much we can agree with ?

[void()]

The monogamous person does not have to change. They may remain monogamous. They just have to accept that the non monogamous person will not be monogamous. The monogamous person should not expect monogamy from the non monogamous partner. They should accept that the non monogamous will do just that.

Void pulls out a straight pin and looks at tenni's bubble.

If my wife would not have accepted me, I would have remained monogamous to her alone. May have been upsetting, frustrating but I would have done so because of something seen more important than sex. And no she did not expect me to be, save for some time for her to more fully accept me, realize I would not be lost either way.

[tenni]

Void pulls out a straight pin and looks at tenni's bubble.

If my wife would not have accepted me, I would have remained monogamous to her alone. May have been upsetting, frustrating but I would have done so because of something seen more important than sex.And no she did not expect me to be, save for some time for her to more fully accept me, realize I would not be lost either way.


No bubble is broken voidie.

She did not ask you. If she did ask you and you agreed to be monogamous, you would have been like hundreds/tens of thousands? of men (bi & straight) who agree because that is the social norm that we are raised with. The idea that people should agree to be monogamous and you have a 'right" to expect it from others if they want to remain married to you rather than you have a right to be monogamous or non monagamous. As you point out, you would have been frustrated and upset. In other words, unhappy. For some types of bisexuals this unhappiness grows while other types of bisexuals have less need or drive and more of a desire..even a curiousity that is never explored.

The only congent concept for monogamy given imo so far is security. One person may need to be monogamous to feel secure. That makes some sense to me. They only want to "deal" with one person sexually. One person may demand monogamy from another inorder to feel secure..makes less sense to me . I do not believe that someone's insecurity should be rewarded to permit demanding monogamy from another person. Society does though. Your wife does not need you to be monogamous inorder to feel secure in your relationship.

[void()]

:thumbu::shades::bowdown::):bulb::thumbu:

[Gearbox]

its odd cos people think in terms of either one or the other...not both at once.......and do not realise that a person can be both......as there is more than one aspect to the situation

I agree with what you are saying about the non mono agreeing to mono... but with a tweak... when the natural urges stop, it changes the dynamics..... its a bit like the people that talk about no longer having the desire for the same sex or opposite sex, they general stop having sex with the gender they no longer have the desire to have sex with

think of it in terms of women that hit menopause and the hormonal changes alter the sex drive to the point that it disappears.... the same thing can happen to guys......
you suddenly have no desire for sex.. there is no urges and cravings....and there can be any number of reasons why.....

the reason why you never really hear about it, is that nobody talks about that happening with themselves, I tried and look at what happened to my threads about asexuality and dealing a asexual nature.... I was talking about a very real aspect that can affect males and females and trying to bring awareness of the issue to the site since so many people talk about the woman no longer having a interest in sex but the male having the interest.....
The physical dynamics may change with the loss of sex drive etc, but the freedom to have sex with others is the same. That's what open relationships are about: The personal freedom of both/all to have sex with others should they wish to (or are able to) take it.
I have a casual FB (Phill) with a husband who has lost ALL drive. Phill is HIGHLY sexed and his husband has had no interest in denying him the sex life he yearns for but can't provide. Has been having sex with others for years. They love each other very much, and neither has any plans to leave the other.
If Phills sex drive suddenly goes away like his husbands, NOTHING would change. They are emotionally monogamous despite being sexually open, and THAT is what counts for them.:love:
I may share my bed with him, kiss him, rim him, fuck him etc but his husband has 'HIM'. I could not be a threat to that, even if I wanted to be. I'm a 'fuck & forget' on THAT score, and his husband is much MUCH more to him than that.:)

There would be nothing to gain by demanding sexual monogamy for either. Yet some do, as they mistake it for devotion.
That is a MAJOR downside to sexual monogamy. Sex is no indicator of love (of the 'being in love' kind). They are worlds apart. They maybe fantastic when put together, but don't rely on each other to exist.
Some use sex to 'get a lover', but doesn't work. Some judge their lover by exclusive sex, but also doesn't work.
Sex is sex, and has absolutely nothing to do in ANY way shape or form to do with emotional devotion. Thank fek for that, coz many on here would spend a fortune on Valentines cards.LOL!


that was a general statement about people.... you do the very same thing yourself and so do many others when they talk about their needs and how their partner should respect them... you go to different sexuality forums and you will see the same thinking.... the partner should respect MY needs and wants...

so it was not negative as all, it is a observation about human nature and supported by so many psychs, experts, professionals etc, and proven by normal, ordinary people like you and others......

MY rights, MY needs, MY wants, MY desires and how others should respect them...... and yet everybody else is saying the very same thing in regards to themselves.....
its why you and others keep arguing that your rights as a bisexual non monogamous should be respect by your partner..... and I am saying, your partner is thinking that as a non bisexual, non monogamous, their rights should be acknowledged by you and not brushed off as if they do not matter, cos you hate people doing the same thing to you

no matter what is said in the site and the forum,... you will continue to believe that a monogamous partner should change for you.... but that you should not change for them..... its not negative, its not nasty, its pretty much what you have said so many times in the forum...... and when the partner will not change for you, you will not be impressed...... but you also have stated time and time again, why should you change for your partner...... and no, I am not having a go at you or saying you are wrong.....just trying to say that a year down the track, that we would be having the same conversation, UNLESS something changed, like you suddenly lost the urge and desire for sex.... and then your stance may be much the same, but not so much about you any more, but others.....
I don't think those psychs&experts would tell you that anybody who says "I DON'T think my partner should respect MY rights!", are quite balanced. Or that it's a surprise that the opposite is most common.
As have been said, the monog partner needn't change their own sexual activity at all. The non-monog should respect that, and vice versa.
The reasons WHY some monog don't respect that is due to their own fears of non sexual exclusivity. IMO it would be much healthier to confront those fears instead of harping on about who has rights. As I've already complimented you on your statement about how people deal with things and how they handle things, which is what I meant by 'the emotional gears': Discovering what motivates us, being 100% honest with ourselves and dealing with issues such as jealousy etc should we find them.
I FULLY respect how difficult it is to deal with jealousy etc! I've had jealous lovers, and although it spawned a cruelty to me, it's always far crueller to the bearer.
NO I'm not saying that ALL monog are the jealous type! But monogamy is a clear winner for that type.

[Implanted]

Hmmm, tenni! Seldom have I met someone who is more of a stickler on semantics than I. Kind of refreshing, really. I wasn't considering the more intricate aspects of my word choices, so it is interesting to consider the differences between 'merit' and 'benefit.' That said, I should have used the more general term, 'positive aspects.'

So what are the positive aspects of monogamy? Foremost, in my opinion (as a polyamorous person), would be simplicity. That's not to degrade the complicated nature of monogamous relationships at all though. Why complicate things? The most common reason I've heard from anyone--gay, straight, bi, trans--is that they have a hard enough time dealing with the dynamics of one relationship, let alone two or more.

Security was mentioned above as well, several times. So was commitment to a partners who are not comfortable with their other half sleeping around or seeing others.

Any relationship requires communication and compromise. For instance, I wouldn't mind the opportunity to have a one-night-stand or have a fling with someone I just met, but my wife and I have agreed that we need to talk about such things first. I am comfortable with that. We have agreed that if we are away from each other (business trip, etc) that it would be ok with protection, but I'm not free to go down to the local glory hole (if there was one) after work on a whim. I'll have to tell my wife first. But that is something that she and I have previously agreed to. I can live with that, and there are many people out there, bisexual or not, who can live with being monogamous.

There is no right or wrong way, just like there is no absolute of sexual prefference. It is a continuum. I'm lucky that I can be polyamorous with my wife. If I couldn't, I'd probably still be with her, and have a different life style. I'm just glad that I can be this way.

[Long Duck Dong]

gearbox.....believe it or not, you can have non monogamous asexuals..... they are not looking for sex, they enjoy the emotional affection and intimacy, so sex is not the only reason for people to have a non monogamous nature.... lol... but much of the argument in the thread has been about the right to have sex with others

ok something about me....

I was in a 7 year relationship with a partner that I had sex with 6 times in 7 years.... they had more than 13+ different lovers in that time.... they indicated they were not interested in sex, then had sex with multiple partners, I was expected to be monogamous and faithful to them.....
they said to me that it was MY fault that they were having sex with other people and that I should stop them... my answer was simply that I did not have the power to tell them what to do or to stop them doing as they pleased.... and their answer was, that is dead right, so get over it.....

it is a reversal of the stance that the monogamous person has the issues..... and incidently a good number of people in the site, had the opinion that I should have left her cos of the way I was treated....... and I did find that interesting that non monogamous people were saying that it was wrong, the way I was treated by a non monogamous partner...... now you have to remember that she was cheating on me... she did not ask for permission and even if it was or was not given, she would have done it any way...

it was a situation that is not unique,... we have had other members that have made it clear to their monogamous partners that it is the bisexuals way or the highway..... that is why the respecting a persons rights, falls flat on its face when people say it is the monogamous person that is selfish and wrong.... it is actually a two way street and some of us have been there......

the interesting aspect there.... is the number of non monogamous people that had posted in the threads about it, talking about the lack of respect for a partner....

a partner can not stop you going outside of the relationship.... like I said, cheating exists as proof of that... what stops people is the understanding that they stand to lose everything if they get caught....but that still doesn't stop some people from doing it..... if they had permission, they would still go off with other people....so its pretty much all about them.....

insecurity and jealousy can also be aspects of non monogamous behievour... as there are people that need the constant reassurance that they are wanted and desired.... and the jealous aspect can be that a non monogamous person can be resentful and jealous of the idea that other people are sleeping with the people they want to sleep with...... so the motivation for non monogamy is not always about sex, something that has not really been addressed in the site.......
a lot of the excuses used against monogamous people can also be true about non monogamous people.....

as for phil and his partner.... people like that, I can respect... a lot.... its the same with people that open up the relationship with their partner, tho they have no interest or desire to be with others ( that can go for both partners ... ) ... DD and I have spent a few years going over and over the issues with opening up the relationship and she can tell you that its actually me that looks at every issue, problem, scenario and I have looked at it from so many angles that I honestly think I had driven her insane....
and she can tell you that one of the main focuses for me, is the fight between respect, honor and loyalty to a partner and being with somebody other than my partner.....

I am not sure if you notice it.... but most people will use defining * excuses * for their actions..... IE its not cheating if its with the same sex....and many people use them so they do not have to compromise their own standards.... IE I am not lying to my partner and betraying her trust as I do not tell her what is going on and she trusts me not to have sex with other women.... that is something that I can not do in myself.....and that is why we have a lot of people that need permission from their partner, their respect, honor and loyalty aspects are so strong, they can not cheat

honestly, gear... to me, its the my rights stance that has become a big part of our lives that is creating the biggest issue in relationships more than anything else....as it gets applied to everything now....... people enter into relationships and marriages and believe that they make the rules and choices for the relationship and both people.... the trouble is that we don't.... we can only speak for ourselves......and its the same for monogamous people.... its not so much about giving permission or being respected as a partner, its more about their right not to be in a relationship / marriage that they do not want to be in.... and for many non monogamous people its not about having permission to have other lovers, its more about the understanding that they will not lose the relationship / marriage they have, if they act on their urges and desires.... cos they want to be in the monogamous relationship but not be monogamous in the relationship.......

what I really like about you, gear.... is that you refer to non monogamous people and bisexuals in terms of non monogamous people and bisexuals... not bi males the majority of the time.... it speaks volumes about the way you look at things and why I find talking with you about things like this, to be quite a enjoyable experience... cos there are times, it challenges me to review my thinking for the 1000th time and then drive DD even closer to the verge of insanity by talking with her about the same things that shes heard more times than she cares to remember...... poor DD... I am not sure if she realised that loving me was so hazardous to her sanity

[Gearbox]

LDD, what was missing from your past relationship was basic common courtesy. It has nothing to do with monogamy or non-monogamy, she (if it was a she?) was just a nasty controlling insensitive ogre.(Been there.)
And YES jealousy can be found in non-monog too. Some highly paranoidly jealous people (m&f) cheat while falsely accusing their partners of it. That (IMO) has a lot to do with their public persona, and maybe a self deprecating reaction to what they fear most, more than a sexual need. Much like bug chasing, they (at least try to) expose themselves to what they fear. But in the jealous cheaters case, that's promiscuous women/men, which not only fails to clear the fear, but enhances it. Nobody said they are clever!:rolleyes: But the result they get may also be the confirmation they need?
I know why you stuck such a negative relationship, as I've lived one myself. We just don't realise how easy it is to be conditioned. I started snapping out of mine when a beautiful kind woman made ME a cup of tea one day.LOL. Had to deal with WHY that made me feel so out of place. (Nothing to do with sex or monog.lol)

I Phills case, the sex isn't thrown in his husbands face, isn't used to make him feel sexually useless, has no spiteful intentions at all. It's just an activity much like tennis. While Phill's husband is at bingo, Phill is having sex, and from what I'm told, the husband gets just as much thrill (if not more when waiting for one number.lol) than Phill. I'm not insulted btw!:tongue:

The bi's who cheat with same gender and not view it as cheating are in a sense right.lol No that's not excusing cheating!
In their minds there is no emotional aspect, it's purely a sexual release, and no threat to their partner. It has the same significance as a wank to them. That may not be how their partners would describe it, but that's what it is in actual fact, despite how the partner would view it. They don't divulge it due to that, as they know it would be taken way out of context.
So it IS cheating to the partner, but NOT cheating to the cheater.:bigrin: That's why there are so many 'cheaters' about.
OHH and that isn't done out of malice! There's no joy in the secrecy, or gloating that they 'get away with it'. It's something they'd rather not hide, but feel obligated to. As has been said many times by many cheaters "It's better for them that they don't know!".
YES that does look like a big old fat convenient excuse! It does have it's rational though.

Monogamy (IMO) should really be left to those who KNOW themselves, have explored all they can about them and can HONESTLY commit to it. Otherwise it's doomed to failure and grief.
But as you know from meeting people who are LGBT, self realisation is a HUGE boulder we carry around with us until it breaks our backs (goes for hetero's too). People swear to God in a church that there'll be no other etc etc and for many that is true. AT THE TIME!:rolleyes:
But being people, we don't have the wherewithal's to swear that! We can't block others out of our minds, and our sexuality doesn't have an 'OFF' switch. We are doomed to lie & deny ourselves OR ditch the monogamy, very commonly.
It's no great shock that many bi's realise (or accept that) they are bi in their mid 30's -40's. It often takes that long to acknowledge that "This is all a heap of bolox!".lol Meaning society, reality in general and the conditioning we are subjected to. Everything is geared towards insecurity and fear, and it's accepted. Until we wake up to ourselves and reject the -(negative). Everything is -&+.:)
Your wasting energy discussing sexual variety with DD. You'll only get what you get by experiencing it. Dwelling gets you both '-' every time. IMO it's better to accept that whatever happens you'll both get a laugh out of it no matter how bad or embarrassing it may be. Always works for me.lol But with that in mind, it can only enhance the positive experiences. So no point stressing out.:)

[bityme]

A series of very interesting posts. Each respondent seems to have a different view on the subject, many of them being very similar, some expressing a wide variance with others. A bit of animus thrown in over divergent views (but I’ll pass on commenting there.

Everyone is entitled to their own view, as opinions, anyone’s statement is entitled to the same consideration and all are valid as vehicles of communication as an attempt to reach agreement, or at least establish a common ground of understanding.

I would like to add a few comments to relate some of my understanding and see if it might help clarify some of the discussion.

As I understand it, monogamy (coming from the Greek monos which means one or alone and gamos which means marriage) refers to the practice of having only one marriage during a lifetime. This is, of course, different than digamy – a subsequent marriage after the death of a spouse or a divorce, however, the term monogamy is often used in the description of digamous relationships. Contrast also polygamy – more than one spouse at the same time (usually signifying multiple wives) or polyandry – multiple husbands at the same time, or polygyny – multiple wives at the same time. I note that these terms refer only to an individuals marital status, a point I think is very significant to this discussion.

Another term used in some of the posts is polyamory – the participation in multiple and simultaneous loving or sexual relationships. I know it’s not a word, however, for the sake of discussion I might use the term mono-amory as describing the practice of participating in only one loving or sexual relationship at a time.

The posts here, however, refer to issues raised about interpersonal relations much more complex than an individual’s marital status. The discussions are more akin to considerations of modern researchers when approaching the subject of human monogamy. They seem to direct their inquiries in four different areas: (1) Social monogamy referring to two partners living together, having sex with each other, and cooperating in acquiring basic resources such as shelter, food, and money; (2) Sexual monogamy referring to two partners remaining sexually exclusive with each other and having no outside sex partners; (3) Genetic monogamy referring to two partners only having offspring with each other and (4) Marital monogamy referring to marriages of only two people.

The posts in this thread seem to be discussions of a combination of either Social and Sexual monogamy (1 and 2) or Social, Sexual and Marital monogamy (1, 2 and 4). This, no doubt, is due to the cultural practices that have developed over time and the assumptions or expectations society attaches to the singular term “monogamy.”

I point out these details only because of their importance to the question raised by Implanted in the initial post in the thread, i.e., the Merits of Monogamy and Non-Monogamy.

If we address these four aspects of human monogamy separately it becomes easier to discuss their merits and detriments. It also enable us to view how individuals can structure their relationships with variations of their agreement about these different aspects.

Social Monogamy
It’s fairly easy to see the merits that favor Social monogamy. Living together is preferable when considering the current economy and the costs of housing. Having sex together is attractive if we consider the issues of frequency and accessibility (sexual exclusivity is addressed separately). Acquisition of basic resources and other property becomes easier when cooperating with others, particularly where both parties are producing income.

On the other hand, if we explore detriments, we find that living together requires much greater cooperation between individuals. There might be considerations of disparate tastes in food, music, social interaction with others, personal habits (cap on the toothpaste, nylons hanging in the shower, raising or lowering the toilet seat, etc.) can cause problems. Disparate taste in housing, location, furniture, etc. can also produce disagreements that require resolution.

Frequency and accessibility of sexual intimacy often is not enough. Differences in compatibility, performance, practices, exclusivity, desires, fantasies, fetishes, can arise and create additional problems as frequency and accessibility increase.

Of course, the greatest detriment (or a possible advantage) is seen in dividing acquisitions should the relationship end. As the difference between the party’s contributions increase there is a corresponding increase in possibility of contention and rancor occurring about such division.

Sexual Monogamy
Sexual exclusivity is certainly one of the most-discussed issues on this site. In view of those other discussions and the highly personal and individualized decisions people make on this issue, I will forgo any attempt to compare the merits of either side.

Genetic Monogamy
While this aspect has not been addressed in other posts, it certainly is an issue of great importance for individuals who desire to rear children. It is also one of the most-cited reasons for continuation of troubled marriages. The merits and detriments of raising children are to numerous to mention and vary drastically between individuals. Social pressures, religious beliefs and personal preferences all impact the selections made by parties about parenting. Any comment could be view as either a merit or detriment, depending on one’s point of view.

Marital Monogamy
When separated from the Social, Sexual, and Genetic aspects of human monogamy, the issue of marital status seems to be a completely different discussion. For me, this would be the area most appropriate for discussion of love or the emotional considerations of interpersonal relations. Two other considerations, of course would be social pressure and religious beliefs.

I will not attempt to try evaluating social pressures or religious as a means of justifying or refuting marital monogamy. To do so would require a presumption that opinions about these matters are either good or bad. It is neither my right nor my desire to dictate the beliefs of others.

The love or emotional aspects are, however, worthy of comment.

It is reasonable, normal, and healthy for an individual to form emotional attachments to others. Please note that I did not use the terms necessary, required, or essential. The question is whether or not such attachment should be permanent and/or exclusive. Yet again, these decisions are highly personal in nature. It is impossible to assign relative values to love or affection only the individual can truly assess his or her feelings to determine whether or not they are deep and long-lasting enough to justify a commitment to marriage and exclusivity.

Certainly, there are those who have the capacity and the desire to love more than one person at a time. For them, the idea of marital monogamy will, no doubt, be less attractive than for others and could also be an unacceptable choice.

Back to the Central Question
Ironically, our culture seems to lump all four of these aspects together and expects the individual to give a single yes or no answer that will be deemed to apply to all aspects of human monogamy. Despite our supposed sophistication as a society, we have utterly failed to educate and enable people to make separate choices, except in limited circumstances. One simple example is in Genetic monogamy where we utilize a legal fiction for people to have their own offspring through adoption or sperm/egg donation.

A heterosexual or same-sex couple must balance all of these considerations, deciding to adhere to exclusivity in each in order to comply with the societal norm. That might require one or both of them to forgo a desire to not be exclusive in one or more areas because giving up or suppressing their desire for non-exclusive activity is not as important as having the exclusive relationship in all others.

Legal prohibitions to polygamy, polyandry, and polygyny are a major impediment to their practice.

Bisexual and polyandrous individuals face a difficult decision especially when their prospective mate is demanding of their agreement to total monogamy or may even be unaware of it. They can suppress their desires and agree to Sexual monogamy with their marital partner or refuse to agree. Knowing that acceptance of sexual monogamy is a denial of an essential element of their sexuality, is such acceptance even possible? Of course it is! There are many who have made that decision with varying degrees of difficulty and some who later come to regret having so decided.

In each case, these individuals agreed to Marital monogamy because their need to express their bisexuality or polyandrous nature was outweighed by what they personally determined to be the merits of all other aspects of human monogamy combined.

Bisexual and polyandrous individuals who reject Marital monogamy at the outset and those who have accepted monogamy and later discover their bisexual or polyandrous tendencies have the worst position. First, they are faced with the issue of disclosure and secondly, termination the relationship or modification of it’s ground rules.

Regardless of the sexual orientation of the parties, the issue of monogamy or non-monogamy boils down to achieving a balance between the preferences and priorities of the individuals involved. Obviously, there will never be a single model that is ideal for those whose orientation is other than heterosexual. Indeed, society has found that there is not even an ideal model for them. We have witnesses a rise in the use of prenuptial agreements to modify the Social monogamy within marriages. Society has also come to allow varied forms of Genetic monogamy through adoption, artificial insemination, donor eggs, and surrogacy.

In a culture that universally combines all aspects of human monogamy into one definition, idealizes the concept of “soul mate,” “your one and only,” and “your true love,” and often seeks to punish departures from the “norm” through the use of criminalization, financial disadvantage, or social stigma, is it any wonder that we

The only real “ideal” is having open and honest disclosure by everyone involved and then working out an agreement. Not just a “yes” or “no” agreement on monogamy, but one each aspect of it. That is a much easier proposition at the beginning of a relationship, but much more difficult after a commitment was already made.

Pappy

[Long Duck Dong]

I disagree gearbox.... much of her stance was that she wanted partners to be monogamous while she was free to be monogamous or non monogamous.... ironically, in a way, she never sexually cheated on the people she was cheating with.... and a few times she bitched at me at it and my simple answer was " can't handle people that do not play by the rules that you do not play by either ? "

yes she was a nasty piece of work... but much of her understanding was that partners being non monogamous was wrong, her being monogamous was wrong

DD is a monogamous natured person tho she is open minded about our relationship and heteroflexible ( and got rubbished for saying that in the site ) and I would rather have a partner like that.. than a perfect partner that just says yes to anything I want.... seems strange but I do not want a situation where I would become so complacent about my partner, the relationship and the fact that I am a very lucky man in more ways than one.....

it would be the same if the roles were reversed, and DD was the bisexual.... as there would be so much for me to experience and learn about.... but we can do that inside the relationship without ever going outside of it....

phil and his husbands case is a prime example of what I have been saying in the site for years.... it comes down to the person and the people in the relationship, not society, not monosexuality, not females, heterosexuality... just individual people and if you get the right people together, we see the relationships like phils.... a relationship that is fantastic... but it took both people to make it work

I do agree with that statement about monogamy being best left to those that truly know that they are monogamous....but it goes both ways.... non monogamy is best left to those that truly know themselves to be non monogamous......and the argument that is used that monogamous people should not get into relationships with non monogamous people, goes both ways,... but how often do you see non monogamous people say that..... instead most of the time they will enter into a relationship with a person that wants a closed relationship... and then try and change it and the partner to fit what they want.... lol the very opposite of what they have been saying about acceptance and tolerance for others.....

both DD and I enjoy talking about sexual variety, but neither of us are really interesting in doing it..... neither of us are interested in casual sex with strangers or hook ups online.......and what is interesting is that sexual practices quiz that has been posted in the site in the past, I am one of the highest scorers in the site.. there are only 4 other members in the site that have scored higher than me.... yet I get rubbished for having a asexual nature and DD gets rubbished for seeing herself as heteroflexible ( open to experiences ) ...lol so much for tolerance and acceptance within a community that talks about the need for tolerance and acceptance.....

[Gearbox]

Well sometimes the 'ex' in 'ex gf/bf' is nectar on the lips.lol Lets hope she's discovered 1 rule for all by now.
I didn't realise you were only talking about opening your current relationship. Thought you were teaming up to take both countries by storm.Lol. Reminds me of an English gay couple who tour in their mobile home, and ....um...have lots of fun picking up people along the way. They don't come my way just yet. I told them I make a great cup of tea too.:tongue:

Yes lots of people get into monogamous relationships and find it's not working out. I'm sure that they honestly believe that it would at the start. Hence the courtship, engagement ring, wedding etc etc. Then it eventually dawns on themselves that they are not being honest. That the love they have for their partner doesn't relate to their sexual needs, yet they signed that over to be with them. Not just in wedlock.
So there they are, expected to live out their lives in suppression, self denial etc, in what's supposed to be a 'loving relationship'. Some try to change their monog partners views of non-sexual exclusivity, try to explain that it has nothing to do with how they love them. Not all will see it that way, and feel threatened and insecure about it. And sadly, some would rather break up the relationship than agree to their partners sexual freedom. Even sadder, some would rather watch them suffer in the relationship.
For many 'monog minded', sexual exclusivity is more important than love itself. For the non-monog, sexual freedom isn't incompatible with love of one.
You can see that plainly in many threads about bi partners. Thankfully not ALL quit at the initial "WTF?" period. Some do actually realise that sex isn't a threat.

I don't know enough about asexuality to comment. Besides preferring a cup of tea to sex in the morning, I know little of it.lol
I did wonder if your description of sex being a selfish act have something to do with that though. That's not how is for me (by late morning/afternoon.lol). Physical contact such as hugs etc is a great positive social activity. Sex is a more intimate social act and can do WONDERS for us too. Not just to de-spunk, but to relieve stress, share energies, explore etc. Masseurs do it their way, others do it theirs (and for FREE!).:tongue:

[tenni]

Post 54
What a fantastic and articulate analysis of several aspects, merits of different types of interpreting the word monogamy Pappy!
I will think about the types that you mention. I think that you have raised an interesting aspect when you refer to genetic monogamy. With so much contraception available to day it certainly is not like our great great grandparent's genetic monogamous expectations. Still, a factor rarely discussed on this site.

[tenni]

"So was commitment to a partners who are not comfortable with their other half sleeping around or seeing others." post 51

Semantic tenni leafs through the pages on the word "commitment".
"Promise, or personal commitment; Attachment, usually in the sense of being associated in an exclusive sexual relationship"

This is where non monogamous people need to be cautious then. Bisexuality is all about sexual preference fluidity.

What should a bisexual commit to? Perhaps not sexual exclusivity in your promises.

Bisexuality is fluid and we can not predict our sexual needs and the variations in the intensity of our needs.

We, as bisexuals, need to acknowledge our sexuality and not deny it under a pretense that we will always be able to promise exclusivity or sexual monogamy whether we legally marry the person or not.

I notice the word "attachment" is included. I have stated previously I find the concept of "attachment" to be frought with possible danger. How much "attachment" to another person is healthy and beneficial to a commitment? Security of self esteem certainly may play a role. If a person is not comfortable about their partner sleeping around it may be more about their insecurities and those insecurities may be able to be dealt with or not.

Implant I rambled. Maybe you have a different understanding of commitment?

[Long Duck Dong]

lol gear..... I am in a way thankful for those 7 years, they taught me a lot about myself... including the fact that I could live without sex without going insane like many of the bisexuals seem to think they do.....lol...and no, she is still as selfish as ever.... but its her nature, I doubt she will ever change, tho one day she may find herself very alone

personally, to me monogamous relationships are a false illusion for many.... they have the idea that they will find their soulmate, the person that completes them, feels the many pieces.... something that is pushed as a the dream of most people... and the reality is that our partners can connect with us, and fill in some of the gaps, but the mistake that many make, is thinking that there will not be gaps...and that is why a lot of relationships fail.... its the same with poly relationships, there will always be some gaps...... the people that appear to complete each other, often do not, but the gaps are so small and far apart, that they do not create any issues......

the big gaps are the ones that really stand out, like * my partner is shit in bed, they are everything else that I want, but still shit in bed * I know people that have dumped partners for that reason and I think why ? take the time to show them how to be a better lover, if they are everything you want but just not in the bedroom.....

one thing that comes up a lot, gear, is that people in relationships that are monogamous, do not want to feel like they are just a bed buddy or a slave...... but that is the way that many of them are made to feel by some bisexuals.... when people say to a monogamous person, that they want other people, it can hit like a hammer between the eyes, not because the person feels that they are not good enuf, but they are left wondering exactly what are they to their partners, as sex is seen as a close intimate love making that is shared between two people in love...and suddenly the partner is talking about having sex with other people......
it is easy for bisexuals to say its lovemaking with the partner and sex with other people... but that in itself, raises more questions as to how a person can say they make love to a partner but just have sex with other people... it can come across to a partner like I make love with you, but I fuck other people, they do not matter to me as all..... and many people can view that as using people for sex......something that bisexuals are quick to argue is not the case....so its a on going issue.....

other monogamous people can ask why people get into a relationship with a partner, say they love them but want permission to go fuck other people.... why bother being with me if you have no desire to be with me and insist that you can not forgo sex with others ?.....and yes the I have a need want and desire for a partner that is not going to be sleeping with everybody else.... so why is not my need not as important as your need to fuck others...

sex is not a threat to many bisexuals as it fits in with their lifestyle and that is how they see it... monogamous people do not see it that way, they see it as they want to be with one person and have sex with that one person.... cos that one person is the person that they love and want to be with, and that is what the bisexual can say to them to.....

its a case of the monogamous person can not see anything wrong with what they want, but the bisexual can and the bisexual can see nothing wrong with what they want but the monogamous person can..... its why if you go to a monogamous forum, you will see the reverse of this site.... here the hetero monogamous are called selfish, in a monogamous forum, its the bisexual that is called selfish........

the asexuality aspect... yes well, there would have been a thread to read about it, if some members in the site had not decided to trash it for their own agenda and need to tell other people they were wrong, had no idea what they were talking about etc etc......I was told in a thread about asexuality that my 20+ years of sexual experience was not valid, that I forced myself to have sex with people... something that amused the fuck out of me.......
but no, my opinion is not anything to do with the asexual nature I have, its something that is a aspect of human nature...

how sex is selfish..... well there is neutral selfish and negative selfish....most sex is neutral selfish.....regardless of how much you share the sexual experience with other people, there is part of sex that will always be about you....IE your feelings, wants, needs and desires are not something you can share, the experience and the emotions and feelings between two people can be shared...and so can the STD's lol....but your feelings, wants, needs and desires are something that can not be shared.... cos its not like you can plug into a another person like a usb connection and transfer your emotions file over to them to check out......

negative selfish is when sex is all about you, the other person is just there for you to have sex with, and you do not care if they like it or not.... its all about you..... unfortunately, thats the same image of bisexuality that a lot of people are thinking of when they think of bisexuality... and if bisexuals could * plug * into their partners and share the truth, and vice versa for the non monogamous people, there would be a lot less misunderstandings and issues....

I used to do hypnotherapy for people as a way of showing them how bisexuality works in some people, something that was against the NZ council of hynotherapy quidelines... so I did it outside of a professional capacity until I decided fuck it, what I was doing, was working and I was tired of rules that were stopping me helping others to be happier in their relationships......

DD knows that occasionally I will still help people....as saving a relationship between two people is more important to me, than obeying rules....

yes hynotherapy can be used in a semi effective way on people to damp the desire for sex with others, but that is something that a person has to really want and desire and ask for....their partner asking me to do it for them, would fall on deaf ears...... .. it doesn't work by erasing the attraction to both sexs or the desire for sex with both people, it simply changes the way the person reacts to the desires..... the reason why I would consider doing that for a person, is situations where they are left feeling more screwed up by the sex with other people than anything else.....and often that is something that is not a low self esteem, guilt issue, its normally connected with depression.....

[Long Duck Dong]

ok gear, I am addressing the aspect of me and DD opening up the relationship in a separate post cos its very complex and difficult to explain and the reasoning why and how it would be done, is something that confuses the hell out of people

for a start, its not about sex or having sex with other people and nor is it about having a poly relationship......lol.... two of the main things that most people associate with a open relationship.....

I will give you a idea as best I can..... my sister, skye and I had a very intensely strong platonic connection, but you have to remember that I am adopted so she was my sister in name, not by bloodline, so in a way our connection was along the lines of platonic lovers as well as brother and sister....we could sleep in the same bed naked without anything sexual happening.... we had our own partners and in a way, her partners became my (platonic ) partners as well.... kris, skyes last partner said to me once that she was a lesbian and she had no interest in males sexually, but there was something about me that was so unique and different that she did not desire sex with me but the idea of sex with me felt so natural that she had trouble being around me for the first few months that skye and her were dating.... lol and no me and kris never had sex... but I did teach her how to have some very intense orgasms while she was fully dressed.....

kris was also aware that there was intense sexual flirting between me and skye, something that a number of our friends noticed and people used to think that we were very passionate lovers and were shocked to learn that we were brother and sister cos they immediately thought we were in a incestous relationship, lol.....but we did that cos we loved the way that people reacted.....

the trouble was that I follow the old ways and so did skye... and so things were not sexualized between us... the idea of seeing each other naked was not a big deal but others would be immediately drawn to her or me or both in a sexual sense..... and part of the issue is the way people have tried to argue many reasons why we did not see each other in sexual ways.. and the simple truth is that skye and I both could separate sex into a intensely intimate connection between two people.... so if her and I were ever to have sex, it would have been a private, intimate, passionate experience and outside of that, we would have carried on as normal......

I could have two ladies in my life or a lady and a guy.... but they both would have to walk the path of the old ways....in order for it to work..... as its far beyond the level of relationships that most people are familiar with... and most people can not handle it.....

kris found that being together with skye, was a relationship on a level she had never had before and she developed a connection with me that surprised her....specially the night I stayed at her place ( I was in a separate bed ) and in the morning, she walked up to me and gave me a long kiss and hug that took my breath away..lol......
she told me later that she felt like us 3 had been together for years and she felt none of the feelings she had felt in the past around males, and if she shut her eyes, she felt like she was being held and hugged by a woman and it felt so natural and uplifting for her.....

within a few months, kris admitted that she was in love with and loved us both, in a way that confused her.... it defied everything she ever understood about relationships and she had stopped seeing skye as her partner when realised that she was something much more..... it all finally ended between us after skye and later kris passed away from aids....

some people have argued that kris had to have been bisexual in order to be attracted to me..... they are wrong... cos they are trying to limit it to what they understand...
kris connected with me in ways that did not make sense to her at first.... but that was cos she was seeing it in terms of male and female.... in the same way that people got confused about me and skye as they saw lovers and partners, and brother and sister.... neither of them were attracted to me, drawn to me or desired me because I was a male or had a cock and we never had sex.....

so in a way we had a poly monogamous relationship without being in a relationship...lol.....

its the same with me and DD... she is slowly starting to realise that its beyond boundaries and defining......that we can take another person into the house and our relationship.... but its not poly or anything, its a connection between people.... and the only way to explain it in terms that people understand, is to call it a open relationship when in fact, its not..... it doesn't have to be sexual, it can be platonic, we do not have to be in a poly relationship tho in a sense it is....etc

essentially it is what people talk about... a situation without labels and definitions....and its something many people would love, but very few can actually handle cos every line is blurred... many have asked me to teach them, and my reaction is to say that I am yoda.. and the first thing is to tell you to unlearn everything you understand about sex, relationships and attractions......

1/ stop thinking in terms of male, female, monogamous, non monogamous, heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual... they are labels.... and when you are having sex with a person, most people do not think in those terms......

2/ don't set out to make love or have sex with a person.... explore them, listen to their heartbeat, their breathing, watch their eyes and lips.... that will tell you more about a person than anything.... the key is to have them wanting to just stand beside you cos they enjoy being around you, they are not sure what, they do not know why, they just know that they want to be around you... and then use that when you are making love, having sex with them.....

3/ words are what you say, communication is what you share with your eyes, lips, fingers, body and emotions, there are many times that we communicate without talking... but society has become a place where we talk too fucking much and communicate fuck all.....

4/ the person standing beside you, is not your partner, your lover, your husband or wife...... see them as a person not a object or a possession....( that is about as good as i will explain that part )

5/ people need in different ways, you can make love to somebody fully clothed, just by hugging them.... its not what we think they need, that is important.... its how sensitive we are to them, that makes such a difference....... the day you have learnt how to make a person tremble in your arms fully clothed and feeling like they are in bed making passionate love, is the day you have learnt to step beyond everything you know......


so yeah.... when I talk about a open relationship, its not in the way that most people think...... and that is part of why I laugh when people point out about my asexual nature cos people see things in terms of having sex or not having sex, not ways to make love without having sex... or ways to love and be loved in a way and make love without having sex.......and no its nothing to do with tantric sex or anything like that...... lol about the only thing that would be close in terms of a open relationship to what most people understand, is that there is more than one person involved.... and for me, its about sharing and teaching DD and another person how to do the things I do....

DD has posted about having some of the best sex of her life with me and we are 9000 miles apart.....but people see sex in terms of being together..... lol.....

[Gearbox]

one thing that comes up a lot, gear, is that people in relationships that are monogamous, do not want to feel like they are just a bed buddy or a slave...... but that is the way that many of them are made to feel by some bisexuals.... when people say to a monogamous person, that they want other people, it can hit like a hammer between the eyes, not because the person feels that they are not good enuf, but they are left wondering exactly what are they to their partners, as sex is seen as a close intimate love making that is shared between two people in love...and suddenly the partner is talking about having sex with other people......
That seems common for a lot of monog people. They give sex a 'holly matrimony' label, when it's really just sex. Sex with those we love is MUCH better than with those we just like, but that's true of going out for a pint too. A girls night out isn't regarded as 'divorce fodder' though.lol It doesn't bring up the same feelings as a 'girls night out with a horny stud'.
What I found with men who know I'm bi (never told a woman), is that their inability to please ALL my sexual desires is a slap in the face to them. They give themselves unrealistic goals and think they are failures for not living up to them. But I've never dated anybody for their body, and I'd class that as insulting if that's why they dated me. That's what sexual jealousy feels like though. It makes you feel as if your just a body to them, and what's inside doesn't matter.
On the whole - people date for emotional reasons, and have sex for sexual reasons. That stands out more for bi's.


it is easy for bisexuals to say its lovemaking with the partner and sex with other people... but that in itself, raises more questions as to how a person can say they make love to a partner but just have sex with other people... it can come across to a partner like I make love with you, but I fuck other people, they do not matter to me as all..... and many people can view that as using people for sex......something that bisexuals are quick to argue is not the case....so its a on going issue.....
When two lovers have sex, they are 'using' each others bodies for sex. What makes that different from a casual 'fuck' is that they are in love with each other too. They'd also enjoy just a kiss&cuddle with no intercourse etc.
You just can not compare the two. Even for those like me who have intimate sensual casual sex which isn't devoid of love, there's no lasting emotional bond that keeps either together afterwards. Friendship maybe? But no romantic feelings.
Many just want a quick fuck and/or suck, which can make either/both glorified fleshlites and dildo's. That's no incentive to marry!lol God knows why some monog confuse love&sex the way they do.:eek2:


other monogamous people can ask why people get into a relationship with a partner, say they love them but want permission to go fuck other people.... why bother being with me if you have no desire to be with me and insist that you can not forgo sex with others ?.....and yes the I have a need want and desire for a partner that is not going to be sleeping with everybody else.... so why is not my need not as important as your need to fuck others...
As already said (and history of Humans shown from the start) sex & love are not joined at the hip.
That 'need' for exclusivity is rarely looked into by the monog. We all KNOW why we 'need' sex. That is something that we can hardly refrain ourselves from talking about. But we're not so open about the reasons for exclusivity. That is washed over as simply a 'need'.
As it is an issue of control over another, I think it needs an airing. There has to be some damn good reasons for denying another's freedom, these days. Outside of a cult anyway. We are not Gods, and we don't have disciples.:tongue:


negative selfish is when sex is all about you, the other person is just there for you to have sex with, and you do not care if they like it or not.... its all about you..... unfortunately, thats the same image of bisexuality that a lot of people are thinking of when they think of bisexuality... and if bisexuals could * plug * into their partners and share the truth, and vice versa for the non monogamous people, there would be a lot less misunderstandings and issues....
This crap is HIGHLY likely to have come from those who think they can get a relationship with their genitals, and found out that they can't. It's not about bi's, it's about men (mostly) in general, who have casual sex not realising that it's a snare.
That's where you hear "He didn't care about me! I was just sex to him...my feelings meant nothing....etc", after casual sex.:rolleyes:

Must pop off.

[tenni]

"it is easy for bisexuals to say its lovemaking with the partner and sex with other people"

It might make more sense if the poster with the above quote referred to words like "merit" "benefit" so that I /we may contextualize your thoughts in relationship to the thread topic. Otherwise I find it difficult not to read some of your posts as attacks rather than pointing out merit of one approach . Re read pappy's post 54 to get the idea of this thread.

Such a quote indicates to me ignorance (in the true meaning of ignorance) as to how some non monogamous bisexuals make love rather than sex. A bisexual may "make love" to both their partner and other people (who may be of the opposite gender of their partner and they may "love both"). That is in part why I have begun to refer to bonobo bisexuals. Some of us do not have just sex without some affection even though fleeting affection and temporary. I know that I do as far a sensual affection is concerned. It is within my nature as a non monogamous bisexual lover. I do not have "just sex" (very often and sometimes I just have sex with my hand ;). I agree with Gear that when emotional attachment is also present that it may be better but it may be worse. Disfunctional emotional attachment (jealousy/possessiveness) is not making love imo regardless if monogamous or not. Some emotional attachments are very fleeting and temporal in non monogamous situations but they do exist.

[csrakate]

I used to do hypnotherapy for people as a way of showing them how bisexuality works in some people, something that was against the NZ council of hynotherapy quidelines... so I did it outside of a professional capacity until I decided fuck it, what I was doing, was working and I was tired of rules that were stopping me helping others to be happier in their relationships......

DD knows that occasionally I will still help people....as saving a relationship between two people is more important to me, than obeying rules....

yes hynotherapy can be used in a semi effective way on people to damp the desire for sex with others, but that is something that a person has to really want and desire and ask for....their partner asking me to do it for them, would fall on deaf ears...... .. it doesn't work by erasing the attraction to both sexs or the desire for sex with both people, it simply changes the way the person reacts to the desires..... the reason why I would consider doing that for a person, is situations where they are left feeling more screwed up by the sex with other people than anything else.....and often that is something that is not a low self esteem, guilt issue, its normally connected with depression.....
I apologize in advance for taking this thread a bit off topic but I simply must address something that concerns me. LDD, I am greatly concerned about your use of hynotherapy, especially for the reasons that you say you do it. What are your degrees and where did you do your training? You may think I am just being petty, but you simply CANNOT fuck around with people's heads, LDD. I don't care how well meaning you are. The following comment also bothers me:

and often that is something that is not a low self esteem, guilt issue, its normally connected with depression..... Other than suffering from and receiving treatment for depression yourself, what are your qualifications to make this diagnosis? Do you know the criteria to make this diagnosis? You admit that you fly in the face of any professional guidelines which indicates to me that you are practicing without certification. That's hardly in the best interest of your so called "patients". Please help me understand why you feel this is appropriate. You cannot present yourself as something you are not....you cannot practice medicine without a license....you cannot use your "talents" to "help" someone without the proper training no matter how well meaning you may be....you cannot be all the things that you claim to be. If you do, you will most likely be dubbed a charlatan.

[DuckiesDarling]

ok gear, I am addressing the aspect of me and DD opening up the relationship in a separate post cos its very complex and difficult to explain and the reasoning why and how it would be done, is something that confuses the hell out of people

for a start, its not about sex or having sex with other people and nor is it about having a poly relationship......lol.... two of the main things that most people associate with a open relationship.....

I will give you a idea as best I can..... my sister, skye and I had a very intensely strong platonic connection, but you have to remember that I am adopted so she was my sister in name, not by bloodline, so in a way our connection was along the lines of platonic lovers as well as brother and sister....we could sleep in the same bed naked without anything sexual happening.... we had our own partners and in a way, her partners became my (platonic ) partners as well.... kris, skyes last partner said to me once that she was a lesbian and she had no interest in males sexually, but there was something about me that was so unique and different that she did not desire sex with me but the idea of sex with me felt so natural that she had trouble being around me for the first few months that skye and her were dating.... lol and no me and kris never had sex... but I did teach her how to have some very intense orgasms while she was fully dressed.....

kris was also aware that there was intense sexual flirting between me and skye, something that a number of our friends noticed and people used to think that we were very passionate lovers and were shocked to learn that we were brother and sister cos they immediately thought we were in a incestous relationship, lol.....but we did that cos we loved the way that people reacted.....

the trouble was that I follow the old ways and so did skye... and so things were not sexualized between us... the idea of seeing each other naked was not a big deal but others would be immediately drawn to her or me or both in a sexual sense..... and part of the issue is the way people have tried to argue many reasons why we did not see each other in sexual ways.. and the simple truth is that skye and I both could separate sex into a intensely intimate connection between two people.... so if her and I were ever to have sex, it would have been a private, intimate, passionate experience and outside of that, we would have carried on as normal......

I could have two ladies in my life or a lady and a guy.... but they both would have to walk the path of the old ways....in order for it to work..... as its far beyond the level of relationships that most people are familiar with... and most people can not handle it.....

kris found that being together with skye, was a relationship on a level she had never had before and she developed a connection with me that surprised her....specially the night I stayed at her place ( I was in a separate bed ) and in the morning, she walked up to me and gave me a long kiss and hug that took my breath away..lol......
she told me later that she felt like us 3 had been together for years and she felt none of the feelings she had felt in the past around males, and if she shut her eyes, she felt like she was being held and hugged by a woman and it felt so natural and uplifting for her.....

within a few months, kris admitted that she was in love with and loved us both, in a way that confused her.... it defied everything she ever understood about relationships and she had stopped seeing skye as her partner when realised that she was something much more..... it all finally ended between us after skye and later kris passed away from aids....

some people have argued that kris had to have been bisexual in order to be attracted to me..... they are wrong... cos they are trying to limit it to what they understand...
kris connected with me in ways that did not make sense to her at first.... but that was cos she was seeing it in terms of male and female.... in the same way that people got confused about me and skye as they saw lovers and partners, and brother and sister.... neither of them were attracted to me, drawn to me or desired me because I was a male or had a cock and we never had sex.....

so in a way we had a poly monogamous relationship without being in a relationship...lol.....

its the same with me and DD... she is slowly starting to realise that its beyond boundaries and defining......that we can take another person into the house and our relationship.... but its not poly or anything, its a connection between people.... and the only way to explain it in terms that people understand, is to call it a open relationship when in fact, its not..... it doesn't have to be sexual, it can be platonic, we do not have to be in a poly relationship tho in a sense it is....etc

essentially it is what people talk about... a situation without labels and definitions....and its something many people would love, but very few can actually handle cos every line is blurred... many have asked me to teach them, and my reaction is to say that I am yoda.. and the first thing is to tell you to unlearn everything you understand about sex, relationships and attractions......

1/ stop thinking in terms of male, female, monogamous, non monogamous, heterosexual, bisexual, homosexual... they are labels.... and when you are having sex with a person, most people do not think in those terms......

2/ don't set out to make love or have sex with a person.... explore them, listen to their heartbeat, their breathing, watch their eyes and lips.... that will tell you more about a person than anything.... the key is to have them wanting to just stand beside you cos they enjoy being around you, they are not sure what, they do not know why, they just know that they want to be around you... and then use that when you are making love, having sex with them.....

3/ words are what you say, communication is what you share with your eyes, lips, fingers, body and emotions, there are many times that we communicate without talking... but society has become a place where we talk too fucking much and communicate fuck all.....

4/ the person standing beside you, is not your partner, your lover, your husband or wife...... see them as a person not a object or a possession....( that is about as good as i will explain that part )

5/ people need in different ways, you can make love to somebody fully clothed, just by hugging them.... its not what we think they need, that is important.... its how sensitive we are to them, that makes such a difference....... the day you have learnt how to make a person tremble in your arms fully clothed and feeling like they are in bed making passionate love, is the day you have learnt to step beyond everything you know......


so yeah.... when I talk about a open relationship, its not in the way that most people think...... and that is part of why I laugh when people point out about my asexual nature cos people see things in terms of having sex or not having sex, not ways to make love without having sex... or ways to love and be loved in a way and make love without having sex.......and no its nothing to do with tantric sex or anything like that...... lol about the only thing that would be close in terms of a open relationship to what most people understand, is that there is more than one person involved.... and for me, its about sharing and teaching DD and another person how to do the things I do....

DD has posted about having some of the best sex of her life with me and we are 9000 miles apart.....but people see sex in terms of being together..... lol.....

Sighs.. in a nutshell we are not opening the relationship so much as opening our lives. I will only address the points of this that deal with me and me alone. We are talking about a house where comfort is key. Where it's a warm and welcoming place, where a pot of ever simmering soup is going on stove and anyone hungry can get a meal. Where friends and strangers alike can stop along their journey through life and be welcomed and warmed. Companionship not sex, if anything happens it will be because everyone involved considered that to be part of comforting. Make sense from my standpoint? Good. As for the rest, LDD can explain what he meant by certain things but I can tell you from my standpoint the help we both give others is part of our faith not psychobabble.

[Long Duck Dong]

I apologize in advance for taking this thread a bit off topic but I simply must address something that concerns me. LDD, I am greatly concerned about your use of hynotherapy, especially for the reasons that you say you do it. What are your degrees and where did you do your training? You may think I am just being petty, but you simply CANNOT fuck around with people's heads, LDD. I don't care how well meaning you are. The following comment also bothers me:
Other than suffering from and receiving treatment for depression yourself, what are your qualifications to make this diagnosis? Do you know the criteria to make this diagnosis? You admit that you fly in the face of any professional guidelines which indicates to me that you are practicing without certification. That's hardly in the best interest of your so called "patients". Please help me understand why you feel this is appropriate. You cannot present yourself as something you are not....you cannot practice medicine without a license....you cannot use your "talents" to "help" someone without the proper training no matter how well meaning you may be....you cannot be all the things that you claim to be. If you do, you will most likely be dubbed a charlatan.

I am fully certified as a hynotherapist in accordance with the NZ council of hypnotherapist criteria....
you do not need a medical license to do hynotherapy, as it is not regarded as medicine
I no longer do it in a professional capacity because I disagree with some of the rules about using hypnotherapy
assistance with a issue a person has, using hypnotherapy, is not offering a cure nor making a diagnosis.... it is like helping a person with giving up smoking

I receive no treatment for dystimia as there is no treatment in NZ, no meds, no nothing and I do not suffer with depression, I suffer cos of lifestyle choices I make that conflict with the dystimia and cos I have PTSD

the world is full of people that want to tell others how to live, I am a person that tries to help people to live.....if that means breaking rules, I will do it....

[Long Duck Dong]

lol gear if I had some of the answers to your questions, I would out do albert einstein in the IQ dept

each person is unique and I can only touch on aspects of how people think and feel based around many years sitting on my ass for hours listening to them talk and working my way thru the excuses and lies and reasoning to get to the truth of what they really think and feel about things.....

personally, 95% of people do and say what they do and say cos of issues they have. not cos of who they are......be it fear, resentment, jealous, envious, ashamed. betrayal etc... and the crazy thing is that those issues are such a minor aspect of why people do or say the things they do......and the majority of what they do and say, is cos its a part of who the person is......

its why saying things like people are monogamous and anti their partner being non monogamous, has its basis in personal issues, can be true, but it is a small part of the total picture..... but the same thing applies to non monogamous people that do not want to be in a monogamous situation.......

either way.... it makes no difference... this thread could run into 1900 pages of talking about monogamy and non monogamy..... but the outcome will always be the same, the opinions will always be the same.........and I have places to go, people to help and pms to deal with.....

[Long Duck Dong]

Sighs.. in a nutshell we are not opening the relationship so much as opening our lives. I will only address the points of this that deal with me and me alone. We are talking about a house where comfort is key. Where it's a warm and welcoming place, where a pot of ever simmering soup is going on stove and anyone hungry can get a meal. Where friends and strangers alike can stop along their journey through life and be welcomed and warmed. Companionship not sex, if anything happens it will be because everyone involved considered that to be part of comforting. Make sense from my standpoint? Good. As for the rest, LDD can explain what he meant by certain things but I can tell you from my standpoint the help we both give others is part of our faith not psychobabble.

and they have to wipe their feet on the mat before they come in the door......

basically me and DD are talking about a clan / tribe style situation, where each and all are welcome.... as part of a family, and part of who we are as people and partners....away from society and the maddening rush of life.....and the social rules of relationships, monogamy and non monogamy do not exist.....as part of a larger *clan * that already exists with other friends in and around the area that have their homes open to each and all......

the value of each person is not measured in their job or what car they drive or what they are worth in assets, but in the fact that they have not forgotten the value of people as people....