Sacking of Lesbian Scout Leader

[darkeyes]

The Guardian published this the other day.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/chuck-norris-anti-gay-scouts which while funny is a bit of a sad reflection the the Boy Scout movement in the US.. it also begs the question just what have boys to fear a lesbian Scout Leader? is she a misandrist who likes humiliating and trodding on guys or whatever age out of hate? Apparently not.. was she bad at her job?? Not that either it seems. Did parents freak out about her? Nope. Popular with the lads she gets the boot because apparently the American boy Scout movement doesn't allow gays to run its troops...the Girl Scout movement has no problem with it I understand so why the difference? And the Boy Scouts in the UK has no problem with it either.. what I wonder do they do to boys who are gay if found out? Do they too get the chop? It's a question cos I don't know.. but the chances are that most have at least one..

Never did rate Chuck Norris as an actor and have always thought him quite an odious individual so his intervention doesn't surprise me in the least. The type of films he makes too I wouldn't even have on telly if the leccie was free an' they paid me a month's wages...

I never did want to be a Girl Scout, but did once go along to Girl's Brigade meeting cos me m8 wos in it (she in Seattle who Fran is nipping over to see ver shortly...) and it is quite a musical organisation and even then I was pretty useful on guitar and could play drums a bit. I left before the first prayer when told.. yes told.. to close me eyes lower me head and make obeisance to God... no disrespect to any who believe in God but it isn't my thing now and neither was it when I was 12... and marching like an idiot in a band wasn't my thing.. much too holy Jo for Fran and much too regimented for her taste.. me mum and dad both warned me.. but who at the age of 12 listens to parents? But they, like the Boys Brigade also allow gay's to run them... and they are, or were much more of a religious organisation than the Scouts... so Fran ran as fast as 'er lil legs cud carry 'er an a few weeks later joined the Woodcraft Folk... much more fun, no religion and if I got some mickey taking from m8's for being twee I didn't care... and when I told the world I was bisexual.. no one in the Folk laughed nastily even if they did give me some good natured stick..ver supportive they were an' no-one batted an eyelid:bigrin:... 'cept one girl who almost batted me wen I made a move on 'er 1 nite under canvas on Skye:yikes2:..o well... cudn't get laid every day:(... teach me 2 read the the wrong message in the signals they give out...:eek2:

[Long Duck Dong]

it also begs the question as to why people want sexuality exclusive groups for LGBT but also want groups like the BSA to be sexuality inclusive then say its discrimination when the BSA says sorry, no...

if the BSA was labeled as a heterosexual / christian group, all hell would break loose... but that is in fact what the BSA is, a boys group built on christian principals and under those principals, the lesbian scout leader is not within their accepted guidelines.....

its not a sad reflection on the us at all... its simply a alternative version of the many LGBT youth groups that have sprung up over the years.......

the girl scout movement of the USA was set up as a inclusive group for girls by a person with a different vision for the group.....so comparing the GSUSA with the BSA is not a good move at all... they are two differently run groups with different ideals and principals.... and the Girl scouts is separate from the girl guides that was set up by baden-powells wife

as for the UK and the US differences, there are different laws that govern the countries so there is different dynamics within the two groups and just cos the UK allows gay leaders in their groups, doesn't mean that the US has to allow lesbian leaders.....


.

[Gearbox]

Well Chuck said that he doesn't think it's good for the scouts to be PRO-GAY. To some, having a lesbian scout master/mistress sends a message out that the scouts are PRO-GAY.
It's an assault on those who wish to keep non hets out of 'normal' society. They know they exist, but won't accept them as 'normal' people, and don't want anybody else to either.

Same thing happened with non-whites. Now, it is good practice to include a mix of skin colours when using pics of a 'random group' in ANY advertising etc. It is a positive message that supports acceptance and views ALL as 'normal'.
If that scout master was ousted for being black, there would be riots! Thankfully, the lesbian scout master has received lots of support too, so maybe it's a good sign that sexuality will someday be considered not important too?

I think Chuck did Americans a favour by presenting himself as an unwanted spokesperson for what Americans must not accept. He has inadvertently set off a 'wakeup call'.:)

[csrakate]

I guess we should leave the leading of the scouts to the Jerry Sanduskys of the world....or how about an altar boy diddling Catholic priest?? God knows we don't need those gays teaching our kids how to tie knots and make S'mores.

[Long Duck Dong]

well gearbox...

the BSA excludes atheists, agnostics and homosexuals as its a christian based organization.... the UKBS is fighting to retain its christian based scouts vows as there are people that are trying to remove the christian aspect of it...and the UKBS is not known for discrimination against people......

there are moves to remove gender as a restriction from the boy scouts so that females can join ( already in some countries, its now the scout movement as males and females can both join the * boy * scouts... )

in simple terms, what people are doing, is taking the boy scouts and literally destroying everything it was about originally.... a group for christian heterosexual boys..
it was never about discrimination when it was started cos that was the majority of the boys that went to scouts.....

instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally... as a seperate entity from the BSA and other traditional scout groups...... or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destory other peoples work ???

[darkeyes]

it also begs the question as to why people want sexuality exclusive groups for LGBT but also want groups like the BSA to be sexuality inclusive then say its discrimination when the BSA says sorry, no...

if the BSA was labeled as a heterosexual / christian group, all hell would break loose... but that is in fact what the BSA is, a boys group built on christian principals and under those principals, the lesbian scout leader is not within their accepted guidelines.....

its not a sad reflection on the us at all... its simply a alternative version of the many LGBT youth groups that have sprung up over the years.......

the girl scout movement of the USA was set up as a inclusive group for girls by a person with a different vision for the group.....so comparing the GSUSA with the BSA is not a good move at all... they are two differently run groups with different ideals and principals.... and the Girl scouts is separate from the girl guides that was set up by baden-powells wife

as for the UK and the US differences, there are different laws that govern the countries so there is different dynamics within the two groups and just cos the UK allows gay leaders in their groups, doesn't mean that the US has to allow lesbian leaders.....


.
Doesn't wash, Duckie.. I know about the law being different in different places.. does the American boy scouts reject Islamic boys, Sikhs or Hindu.. are agnostic or athiests?? not to my knowledge but no doubt u will tell me differently...if they do, as with this nice little booting of a lesbian scout leader, it is narrow minded, bigoted and less than Christian.. even most Christian churches welcome homosexuals into their ranks.. although I can think of a few Christian churches offhand which act similarly and worse... Baden Powell would be turning in his grave..and if he isn't he should be... although no conclusive proof exists, his life is rich with speculation of his own homosexuality.

[tenni]

Scouts Canada seems to be one of the countries that has removed gender and both genders are in the scouts. When I checked the Boy Scouts of America, I could not find their values, mission statement listed on the website.(maybe someone else may find it). The statements often referred to boys but the images sometimes showed girls as well on the BSA website. Reference is made to God in Scouts Canada but not whether it is the Christian god or ? Due to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I doubt that a lesbian leader may be dismissed due to sexual orientation alone. The policy of Scouts Canada adheres to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom and states

"1003 Social Justice and Diversity Policy 17 February 2001
In keeping with our fundamental principles – Duty to God, Duty to Others, Duty to Self – Scouts
Canada is committed to social justice including the promotion of gender and member diversity at
all levels of the organization, both in its structures and programs and to the elimination of
discrimination on the groups of race, gender, ethnicity, financial ability, sexual orientation,
religion, disability or age."

Mission of Scouts Canada

To contribute to the education of young people, through a value system based on the Scout Promise and Law, to help build a better world where people are self-fulfilled as individuals and play a constructive role in society.
Scouting’s Mission is achieved by:


Involving youth throughout their formative years in a non-formal educational process.
Using a specific method that makes each individual the principal agent in his or her development as a self-reliant, supportive, responsible and committed person.
Assisting youth to establish a value system based upon spiritual, social and personal principles as expressed in the Promise and Law.

Principles

Scouting is based on three broad Principles which represent its fundamental beliefs. These include:


Duty to God: Defined as, The responsibility to adhere to spiritual principles, and thus to the religion that expresses them, and to accept the duties therefrom.
Duty to Others: Defined as, The responsibility to one's local, national and global community members to promote peace, understanding and cooperation, through participation in the development of society, respect for the dignity of one's fellow-beings, and protection of the integrity of the natural world.
Duty to Self: Defined as, The responsibility for the development of oneself to one's full potential physically, intellectually, spiritually and socially.

[csrakate]

instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally... as a seperate entity from the BSA and other traditional scout groups...... or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destory other peoples work ???

Who says that anyone is out to destroy the scouts? Separate entities = segregation. Do you consider that a reasonable solution? Must you always assume that the LBGT is out to destroy something? I don't get it.

I just realized something!!! I was a Cub Scout Leader but at the time I didn't realize (or should I say "acknowledge") that I was bisexual. I believe that one of the boys in my troop has since come out as Gay....was that MY fault???? OMG!!!! What have I done??? (and when do I get my toaster for recruiting one for our side?)

[Realist]

I'm such a sick person!

Being dyslexic doesn't help, but what I saw when I read that heading was, "Sucking off Lesbian Scout Leader"!

[tenni]

OMG Realist...:yikes2::love87:...lol

Kate
"and when do I get my toaster for recruiting one for our side?)"
Please fill out LGBT form 20120703 toasterrewardNZ and submit it in triplicate before the end of the year. ;)

[darkeyes]

Scouts Canada seems to be one of the countries that has removed gender and both genders are in the scouts. When I checked the Boy Scouts of America, I could not find their values, mission statement listed on the website.(maybe someone else may find it). The statements often referred to boys but the images sometimes showed girls as well on the BSA website. Reference is made to God in Scouts Canada but not whether it is the Christian god or ? Due to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I doubt that a lesbian leader may be dismissed due to sexual orientation alone. The policy of Scouts Canada adheres to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedom and states

"1003 Social Justice and Diversity Policy 17 February 2001
In keeping with our fundamental principles – Duty to God, Duty to Others, Duty to Self – Scouts
Canada is committed to social justice including the promotion of gender and member diversity at
all levels of the organization, both in its structures and programs and to the elimination of
discrimination on the groups of race, gender, ethnicity, financial ability, sexual orientation,
religion, disability or age."

Mission of Scouts Canada

To contribute to the education of young people, through a value system based on the Scout Promise and Law, to help build a better world where people are self-fulfilled as individuals and play a constructive role in society.
Scouting’s Mission is achieved by:


Involving youth throughout their formative years in a non-formal educational process.
Using a specific method that makes each individual the principal agent in his or her development as a self-reliant, supportive, responsible and committed person.
Assisting youth to establish a value system based upon spiritual, social and personal principles as expressed in the Promise and Law.

Principles

Scouting is based on three broad Principles which represent its fundamental beliefs. These include:


Duty to God: Defined as, The responsibility to adhere to spiritual principles, and thus to the religion that expresses them, and to accept the duties therefrom.
Duty to Others: Defined as, The responsibility to one's local, national and global community members to promote peace, understanding and cooperation, through participation in the development of society, respect for the dignity of one's fellow-beings, and protection of the integrity of the natural world.
Duty to Self: Defined as, The responsibility for the development of oneself to one's full potential physically, intellectually, spiritually and socially.


Shows what I know... same here tenni and its the Scouts not boy or girls scouts... open to both genders and all faiths or none.. must be fun these days.. ever since I was 12 or 13 as it happens... musta had me head up me arse all this time.. *laffs*... toldya.. wos nev interested... will shurrup.. I know nowt.. wots new bout that? *laffs*

[darkeyes]

Who says that anyone is out to destroy the scouts? Separate entities = segregation. Do you consider that a reasonable solution? Must you always assume that the LBGT is out to destroy something? I don't get it.

I just realized something!!! I was a Cub Scout Leader but at the time I didn't realize (or should I say "acknowledge") that I was bisexual. I believe that one of the boys in my troop has since come out as Gay....was that MY fault???? OMG!!!! What have I done??? (and when do I get my toaster for recruiting one for our side?)
U know Duckie Mumsie.. *laffs*

Shudda joined the Woodcraft Folk like me, Kate.. not all the girls wanted 2 batter me for chattin' them up:bigrin:... an me an the guys had a field day in more ways than 1...;)

[darkeyes]

I'm such a sick person!

Being dyslexic doesn't help, but what I saw when I read that heading was, "Sucking off Lesbian Scout Leader"!
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa... u dirty sod.. 'bout time u paid visit 2 Specsavers!!!! Is a yummie idea tho.. tee hee:tongue: mite not get booted cos of bein gay here..but maybe for gross indecency.. *laffs*

[transcendMental]

I was in cub scouts for one year, at the urging of my dad (not my choice). My son was in them a few years ago, although I was never comfortable with that.

I never heard them billing themselves as a Christian or heterosexual group during those times. They always just billed themselves as a boy's club - for boys. There was no pledge of straightness, or of Christianity. If they meant "only good, straight decent Christian boys", then they should find a way to say so. It feels to me that if you have requirements for your members, you should make those clear, even if it makes you unpopular. Problem is that boys at that age can't know if they are straight or not, or really, whether they believe in God or not (or in my case, whether they are really boys or not).

tm

[jimdawg]

Doesn't wash, Duckie.. I know about the law being different in different places.. does the American boy scouts reject Islamic boys, Sikhs or Hindu.. are agnostic or athiests??

http://www.courthousenews.com/2012/05/29/46899.htm Yes it actually does. But in the West, issues about this occurring against Muslims tend to not get noticed as much as other issues, unless there is antipathy also against the one committing the action. Hence the relative lack of outrage. Its not whitewash at all. What Duckie said is worse than what most people think.

[Gearbox]

well gearbox...

the BSA excludes atheists, agnostics and homosexuals as its a christian based organization.... the UKBS is fighting to retain its christian based scouts vows as there are people that are trying to remove the christian aspect of it...and the UKBS is not known for discrimination against people......

there are moves to remove gender as a restriction from the boy scouts so that females can join ( already in some countries, its now the scout movement as males and females can both join the * boy * scouts... )

in simple terms, what people are doing, is taking the boy scouts and literally destroying everything it was about originally.... a group for christian heterosexual boys..
it was never about discrimination when it was started cos that was the majority of the boys that went to scouts.....

instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally... as a seperate entity from the BSA and other traditional scout groups...... or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destory other peoples work ???
Like TrancendMendal, I was a scout (or a cub?), and at no point was I asked if I was a Christian heterosexual. There were no Bibles around, and no offers of hetero sex at all.:( In fact, I wasn't a Christian, and I was shagging my fellow scout best male mates at the time.lol Bad advertising?

If the USA Scouts are a Christian heterosexual group, then they should stop giving the FALSE impression that they are for all. Apparently the lesbian scout master didn't know it was anti LGBT, so there's a BIG prob somewhere.
It's like asking ALL Americans to join them, then telling the non-het atheists to f*** off, as they are not part of 'ALL Americans', but something outside that definition.
THEY don't get to define that! They can define their requirements and be OPEN about it NOT being for all Americans though. See the difference?;)

The LGBT are already part of society in every corner, nook & cranny. What (IMO) needs to be done is to point that out, and not to break away from the fantasy 'hetero land' as much as possible.
As seen by the lesbian scout, there is support for that, even if some like Chuck are against it.:bounce:

[æonpax]

~
This is BS. Many men secretly dream about being with a young female and at the same time, deny it. It's a false dichotomy. These kind of men are common. They all have a "guilty conscience".

[Annika L]

Well-put Geary! To my knowledge, LDD, when groups are exclusively LGBT, they say so, and are completely up-front about being an LGBT group. They don't invite everyone to join, and then kick out any who are found to be straight. I have no problem with the existence of organizations that exclude LGBT people from becoming members. But if as Gearbox and TranscendMental have said, they invite everyone (or otherwise appear to *look* inclusive) and then kick out people with qualities they don't like...then I smell a rat.

And Kate...I hadn't realized you had "upgraded" your bisexual identity! Did some of us finally succeed in bending you? *wink and devilish smile* Anyway, congratulations...that is a huge realization for anyone to make...well done! *hugs*

[csrakate]

And Kate...I hadn't realized you had "upgraded" your bisexual identity! Did some of us finally succeed in bending you? *wink and devilish smile* Anyway, congratulations...that is a huge realization for anyone to make...well done! *hugs*
Thanks Annika.....and while I can't say that any one of you "bent" me....y'all did make me realize a lot about myself....and for that I am grateful. :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

Thanks Annika.....and while I can't say that any one of you "bent" me....y'all did make me realize a lot about myself....and for that I am grateful. :bigrin:
u mean.. u...u m..mean it.. it... it wosn't cosa me:eek2:???? Rite thats it.. am miffed.. in rite huff now... no more bouncin' me onya knee like wen me wos a babba for u, me lady!!! Gonna go an sit in corner an cwy an' cwy an cwy now!!!:(

[darkeyes]

Question is tho, Duckie.. if a work is crap.. does it deserve to survive?? Jury is out on that, hey?

[Long Duck Dong]

I was a scout in my younger days, I left when i was a senior scout, and I was a assistant den leader ( patrol leader ) at the NZ scout jamboree in the early 80s.... so yes I have been in the scouts myself.....

and I want to get some things straight

kate, I did not say the LGBT were out to destroy things..... my remark was that PEOPLE are out to LITERALLY destroy things..... the original boy scouts was a christian heterosexual group..... the push is on to remove the christian aspect ( duty to god ) and the heterosexual aspects of the ORIGINAL boy scout movement, and in some countries the boy scouts have become the scout movement and gender inclusive ( males and females ).....

I mentioned the LGBT AFTER I made the statements, with THIS statement
instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally... as a seperate entity from the BSA and other traditional scout groups...... or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destroy other peoples work ???

I post a proactive statement as a compromise, and you assume that I was saying that the LGBT was out to destroy the boy scouts ??? did you read my post in reverse ?

for all the scouts and scout leaders that want to talk about the way that the BOY scouts was set up..... why did baden powell set it up and why has it always ( until recently ) been about service to god ? it was for boys and about christian service to god as that was the norm at the time..... and that is why using the modern understanding of the boy scouts is NOT what I am using, I was refering to the ORIGINAL aspect of the boy scouts at the time it was created......

annika, you are correct, that is a sexuality exclusive group.... and that is deemed acceptable, its not deemed to be discrimination of any form but groups that will exclude others on the grounds of not being suitable for the group, are practicing discrimination.....so want to explain to me how its acceptable for the LGBT to discriminate but not other groups ?

darkeyes, your issues with religion and other aspects of life, is clear in your last post, if a work is crap..... you just proved my point about people out to destroy what they do not like or agree with.... and your sexuality has NOTHING to do with it.....

before people want to try and prove me wrong etc... TRY reading what I am saying, not what people want to read into what I say.........

my question in the thread is basically why is the removal of the lesbian female from a christian natured boys group so wrong? do they not have the right to set their own standards without being accused of discrimination ? and all I have had is other peoples opinions based around their own thinking, telling me I am wrong, cos they never bothered to read what I actually said.....

[jimdawg]

my question in the thread is basically why is the removal of the lesbian female from a christian natured boys group so wrong? do they not have the right to set their own standards without being accused of discrimination ? and all I have had is other peoples opinions based around their own thinking, telling me I am wrong, cos they never bothered to read what I actually said.....


I would say it depends what you want, Duck. If you want a group insulated from LGBT, but also other religions, then....perhaps that is your right. However, I do not believe that's the way of the future either. I do not see anything threatening about a lesbian scout, and unless she says "Be like me" I think that Lesbians are a very real part of society. When I was in school, there was a gym teacher who was very butch, though she wasn't openly gay and claimed to like men, I don't think anyone was fooled by it. Anyway, us kids were too young to care or know what that meant and it really wouldn't have made sense to any of us had she been fired. Being a lesbian doesn't make you inherently anti-Christian, unless your Christian values indicates that sin doesn't exist. Which...really goes against Romans, if you study on it, and the teachings of Jesus (that you will sin, the most immoral thing to be is hypocritical).

Its immoral not just because it is denying a job to someone who is probably qualified, but gives the children a disservice in that they never are allowed to face what they might encounter. There are gay boys in scouts who might need an example to feel somewhat attached to other people-even if they're in denial or closeted. Just because you ban gay women from scouts does not mean that you won't encounter them, and frankly, scouts probably should train you what to do in such a situation, so you don't do anything stupid like firing lesbian workers based off the example of scouts.

But if you have a problem with how scouts behaves, stop donating to it, set up an inclusive alternative, and compete. If this sort of insular attitude is wrong, then it should disappear if people are willing to test it without destroying the whole organization, or even the fabric of it.

[pepperjack]

The Guardian published this the other day.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/chuck-norris-anti-gay-scouts which while funny is a bit of a sad reflection the the Boy Scout movement in the US.. it also begs the question just what have boys to fear a lesbian Scout Leader? is she a misandrist who likes humiliating and trodding on guys or whatever age out of hate? Apparently not.. was she bad at her job?? Not that either it seems. Did parents freak out about her? Nope. Popular with the lads she gets the boot because apparently the American boy Scout movement doesn't allow gays to run its troops...the Girl Scout movement has no problem with it I understand so why the difference? And the Boy Scouts in the UK has no problem with it either.. what I wonder do they do to boys who are gay if found out? Do they too get the chop? It's a question cos I don't know.. but the chances are that most have at least one..

Never did rate Chuck Norris as an actor and have always thought him quite an odious individual so his intervention doesn't surprise me in the least. The type of films he makes too I wouldn't even have on telly if the leccie was free an' they paid me a month's wages...

I never did want to be a Girl Scout, but did once go along to Girl's Brigade meeting cos me m8 wos in it (she in Seattle who Fran is nipping over to see ver shortly...) and it is quite a musical organisation and even then I was pretty useful on guitar and could play drums a bit. I left before the first prayer when told.. yes told.. to close me eyes lower me head and make obeisance to God... no disrespect to any who believe in God but it isn't my thing now and neither was it when I was 12... and marching like an idiot in a band wasn't my thing.. much too holy Jo for Fran and much too regimented for her taste.. me mum and dad both warned me.. but who at the age of 12 listens to parents? But they, like the Boys Brigade also allow gay's to run them... and they are, or were much more of a religious organisation than the Scouts... so Fran ran as fast as 'er lil legs cud carry 'er an a few weeks later joined the Woodcraft Folk... much more fun, no religion and if I got some mickey taking from m8's for being twee I didn't care... and when I told the world I was bisexual.. no one in the Folk laughed nastily even if they did give me some good natured stick..ver supportive they were an' no-one batted an eyelid:bigrin:... 'cept one girl who almost batted me wen I made a move on 'er 1 nite under canvas on Skye:yikes2:..o well... cudn't get laid every day:(... teach me 2 read the the wrong message in the signals they give out...:eek2:


Aw, c'mon Dark... you gotta admit,Chuck still looks pretty buff after 40 years with his Total Gymn and his dyed hair.:smilies15 I'll relent though that I got tired of his overused roundhouse kick on Walker, Texas Ranger...:smilies15

[Long Duck Dong]

I would say it depends what you want, Duck. If you want a group insulated from LGBT, but also other religions, then....perhaps that is your right. However, I do not believe that's the way of the future either. I do not see anything threatening about a lesbian scout, and unless she says "Be like me" I think that Lesbians are a very real part of society. When I was in school, there was a gym teacher who was very butch, though she wasn't openly gay and claimed to like men, I don't think anyone was fooled by it. Anyway, us kids were too young to care or know what that meant and it really wouldn't have made sense to any of us had she been fired. Being a lesbian doesn't make you inherently anti-Christian, unless your Christian values indicates that sin doesn't exist. Which...really goes against Romans, if you study on it, and the teachings of Jesus (that you will sin, the most immoral thing to be is hypocritical).

Its immoral not just because it is denying a job to someone who is probably qualified, but gives the children a disservice in that they never are allowed to face what they might encounter. There are gay boys in scouts who might need an example to feel somewhat attached to other people-even if they're in denial or closeted. Just because you ban gay women from scouts does not mean that you won't encounter them, and frankly, scouts probably should train you what to do in such a situation, so you don't do anything stupid like firing lesbian workers based off the example of scouts.

But if you have a problem with how scouts behaves, stop donating to it, set up an inclusive alternative, and compete. If this sort of insular attitude is wrong, then it should disappear if people are willing to test it without destroying the whole organization, or even the fabric of it.


lol I do not have a issue... thats the whole thing... its others that have the issue..... its part of why I do not generally take sides but others see me as taking sides cos they are taking sides cos they have a issue with what happened and they see what I say, as me being against change and the altering of different groups, which is incorrect.....

I see no issue with multiple groups side by side, IE boy scouts for heterosexual / christian males, a unified scout movement for boys and girls, the girl guides, the girl scouts, girls brigade... and yes a unified multiple sexuality, gender, race culture group that embraces all if people want to create it....... but I can quarantee that somebody will find some bloody issue with it... cos rather than accept each outfits right to exist, they will try and make all outfits conform and change to the outfit they want....

I am the same with churches, some embrace LGBT some don't.... I accept that ( I am a ex christian but I have no issue with other christians or churches ).... others want to force all churches to embrace all sexualities and genders in all roles...

the lesbian female did not fit the scouts idea of a role model, ok, ouch, not good... so lets find her a group that will embrace her skills, talents and abilities without question... is that not a good idea ? or is that not a option, does it have to be the boy scouts or bust ? she can still be a excellent role model, leader and lesbian in other youth groups.......and take her son along too.... who apparently was removed from the scout group as well, but I noticed that nobody seems worried about the heterosexual boy removed from the group, only the lesbian female...... something I notice a lot, its part of the same issue but one matters, one doesn't

[jimdawg]

the lesbian female did not fit the scouts idea of a role model, ok, ouch, not good... so lets find her a group that will embrace her skills, talents and abilities without question... is that not a good idea ? or is that not a option, does it have to be the boy scouts or bust ? she can still be a excellent role model, leader and lesbian in other youth groups.......and take her son along too.... who apparently was removed from the scout group as well, but I noticed that nobody seems worried about the heterosexual boy removed from the group, only the lesbian female...... something I notice a lot, its part of the same issue but one matters, one doesn't

I tend to be of the attitude of let them fester and get passed by. I was simply stating why people have an issue. In general, people only complain about such things on issues they cherry pick. They don't care about the issues other have, only their own. So on this issue, there's a lot of LGBT protests for obvious reasons, without actually considering the BSA. There in general is a lot of misplaced outrage in society that...really, has a solution.

I think if your church is homophobic, find a new church. If no churches accept you, start your own. Same with scouts.

[Long Duck Dong]

lol jim..... I wanted to start a religion once... the church of DILLIGAF ( do I look like I give a fuck ) but I could not be fucked getting up in front of the church to preach to all the people that did not give a fuck about coming to a church that they did not give a fuck about and practice a belief that they did not give a fuck about, cos they were too busy not giving a fuck .....but by fuck they gave a fuck about things that did not actually fucking affect them lol.....

thinks back to the saying ( and adds a lil to it ) you can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people none of the time, and piss off somebody all of the time, and the whole time you have not met any of them, said anything to them or had anything to do with any of them..... so who has the issue ?

[darkeyes]

Aw, c'mon Dark... you gotta admit,Chuck still looks pretty buff after 40 years with his Total Gymn and his dyed hair.:smilies15 I'll relent though that I got tired of his overused roundhouse kick on Walker, Texas Ranger...:smilies15
The word "buff" also means "nude" here... u just made me rush 2 loo and hang over it and wretch... he never was "buff" and the ver thought of 'im being "in the buff" turns me tum.. Johnny Depp is "buff" and "in the buff" is spectacularly beautiful, Chuck Norris at no time can be so described, Pepper.... once maybe less than handsome.. now...positively less than grim and grotty... I ever was fond of understatement...

[darkeyes]

lol I do not have a issue... thats the whole thing... its others that have the issue..... its part of why I do not generally take sides but others see me as taking sides cos they are taking sides cos they have a issue with what happened and they see what I say, as me being against change and the altering of different groups, which is incorrect.....

I see no issue with multiple groups side by side, IE boy scouts for heterosexual / christian males, a unified scout movement for boys and girls, the girl guides, the girl scouts, girls brigade... and yes a unified multiple sexuality, gender, race culture group that embraces all if people want to create it....... but I can quarantee that somebody will find some bloody issue with it... cos rather than accept each outfits right to exist, they will try and make all outfits conform and change to the outfit they want....

I am the same with churches, some embrace LGBT some don't.... I accept that ( I am a ex christian but I have no issue with other christians or churches ).... others want to force all churches to embrace all sexualities and genders in all roles...

the lesbian female did not fit the scouts idea of a role model, ok, ouch, not good... so lets find her a group that will embrace her skills, talents and abilities without question... is that not a good idea ? or is that not a option, does it have to be the boy scouts or bust ? she can still be a excellent role model, leader and lesbian in other youth groups.......and take her son along too.... who apparently was removed from the scout group as well, but I noticed that nobody seems worried about the heterosexual boy removed from the group, only the lesbian female...... something I notice a lot, its part of the same issue but one matters, one doesn't
I don't really have an issue with what u say here Duckie except to make this observation... it is fine not taking sides and a good thing to be able to see both sides of an argument.. but by generally not taking sides what changes? If everyone took that attitude.. nothing..ever... except stagnation and ultimately our demise from the face of this earth... humanity has progressed as far as it has for good or ill by people taking sides and actually people do not think u take sides because you do not have an issue, but because the way u approach an issue too often hints at criticism of one side and a lack of even basic questioning of the other... u can disagree with that if u like, but thats how your approach is seen..

..and if I may return to a different post of yours... if a work is inadequate, and crap as I said.. it is not crap as u put it that that work is destroyed.. it is in fact common and has always been and always will be.. I have not said that the American Boy Scouts is a work of crap, but that for some, it may be and that the jury is out.. however if u look at the history of the Scouts in the UK alone, where scouting began, throughout that history it has fractured and separate Scouting movements have been started up for one reason or other by people who either wished change or did not like change...

...and such a thing occurred when the Scouts were opened up to girls in the UK and The Baden Powell Boy and Girl scouts were created by just such a group who felt the change was taking scouting away from what Baden Powell had in mind.. and the Scouts was not begun as a Christian heterosexual group at all.. it was based on the idea that there was a God, and there are troops which are church based, but by no means all, and today there are over a dozen Muslim based troops in the UK alone, but it was a single sex organisation not a heterosexual one and was not religiously exclusive. The movement quickly spread to all corners of the earth and boys of all religions became scouts. In the UK.. boys with no religion were welcomed also, as they still are.. just how that works I have no idea since there are and always have been different version of the scout promise to cater for different religions, but none for those boys who are athiest or agnostic... but they are not and never have been barred membership...

[Long Duck Dong]

simple answer... anything you want to change, can change.....but people do not want to create new things, when they can change the old to the new....

why did we create LGBT groups ? cos there was a need for LGBT groups..... so why do we not have LGBT scout groups instead of trying to force other groups to change to what we want ? cos people do not want new LGBT scout groups, they want to change the other groups to fit what they want......

should LGBT groups be destroyed cos we feel that some do not match what we want and they are crap and will not change, or should we create a new LGBT group that better suits our vision ?

humanity has not gone as far as it can, cos humanity can always go backwards, and they do it regularly but call it progress cos they move forward in another direction

as for the origins of the scouts, fran, I used to be one and I learnt about robert baden-powell, the creator, read the books he wrote about scouting and much of his ideas..... did you know that people have tried to insist that he was a closeted gay male because of the way he thought and acted, did you know that he was indeed a religious man ? did you know that when scouts was started, that homosexuality was not legal, acceptable or tolerated ? and that part of the scout movement was also to bring christianity to places like india, and started in africa as a way of reinforcing british rule over there...

sir baden-powells last letter to the scouts ( copied from wikipedia )

...I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have a happy life too. I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness does not come from being rich, nor merely being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man. Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one. But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but have done your best. 'Be Prepared' in this way, to live happy and to die happy — stick to your Scout Promise always — even after you have ceased to be a boy — and God help you to do it

now wanna try telling me again that he was talking about a god and not the christian god that he followed ?????? cos he was a fucking christian.... that followed a fucking christian god, so I am pretty fucking sure he was not talking about horus or apollo or gwyddion but the christian god.....

when scouts was started, homosexuality was illegal and definitely not welcomed as part of the scout movement so it was not created with peaceful co existance of homosexuals and heterosexuals in a scout den, and I am pretty sure that lesbians / females and transgender people in opposite gender garb, were also not welcomed with open arms...... so that kinda leaves us with heterosexual males as part of baden powells vision, as youth that would grow into fine leaders / soldiers / pillars of the community and OMG... HUSBANDS...... so I would hazard a quess.... how ever vague the possibility that gasp... he envisioned fine, upstanding heterosexual males.......

fran do me a favour and stop trying to tell me that I have no fucking clue about things.... you told me I had no idea about serving in prison, cos you had friends in med security in the uk and I was talking about max sec in NZ.... when you told me that I was wrong about the military when I had served and you hadn't...and when I talked about the legal system in NZ and you told me I was wrong again, cos you posted a link to a article about a proposed law that never passed into the law books.... and now once again, you are trying to tell me that I am wrong about scouts, when I used to be one and I have read baden powells books and other material... and its really getting a lil old.....

next you will be trying to say that baden powell was a bloody pacifist and he sure as hell wasn't... and he was no fuckin angel if you have actually read about his military service.....cos he sure as hell, was not a honourable military man...

[elian]

I don't think it's "by stealth" anymore - I was very surprised to come by an article a month or two ago that said the Scouts were actually looking at being more inclusive regardless of sexual orientation. Well, at least one prominent board member anyway - I'm not sure how that equates to a presidential conspiracy but the "news" has been a little weird lately.

I will always and forever advocate that orientation should not matter. Knowing that most human beings can comprehend the difference between a sheep, a toaster and another living breathing human being I feel we should not discriminate either for or against someone because of who they choose to love. Recognizing at the same time that sexual abuse and predatory action occurs irrespective of a person's gender or orientation, which is why I am a huge advocate of TALKING OPENLY about issues that relate to human sexuality. If there is this huge taboo about something most people consider to be a part of human life then it makes it that much easier to disguise abuse when it does happen.

What do WE have instead, well in America when you say the word "penis" usually everybody just snickers or laughs or ACTS very offended. This is serious business folks - secrets kill. I can't believe that in this day and age we can't acknowledge that at one point in their life everybody has seen a penis, a vagina and probably a pair of breasts..

"Oh, Oh the MORALITY of it!!" <feigns a heart attack like Redd Fox> Come off of it folks..where is the morality when someone in a position of authority makes a small child use their body as ransom to get love - and then be shamed into silence..how does that make a productive member of society?

Unfortunately society does discriminate, both overtly and covertly, and so we have formed LGBT groups because we recognize there is a need to provide mutual support to LGBT people to offset homophobic messages such as "If you can't change who you fall in love with or how you identify then you are better off dead".

I don't care if the Boy Scouts are Christian or not, but if they ARE then they ought to accept people for the way that God made them.

[csrakate]

instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally... as a seperate entity from the BSA and other traditional scout groups...... or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destory other peoples work ???

I know how to read, Duckie....I read just fine (actually got my degree in English....for all the good it has done me LOL). I am sorry that you don't think I understand you or what you are trying to say. Perhaps you need to work on your sentence structure....or maybe you need to think through your comments before you hit enter....whatever, the fact remains that you confuse me and the more defensive you get when I try to understand, the way your explanations go 'round and 'round....I not only get more confused, I get frustrated. For example....the above quote of yours, while you claim you do not accuse the LGBT of trying to destroy anything, LOOK at your sentence.....Your words: "instead of destroying the boy scouts, why don't the LGBT join forces with heterosexuals and create unified scout groups that embrace the idea of acceptance and tolerance of all people equally"....this suggests that you are saying this of the LBGT, that THEY are the ones destroying the boy scouts. After suggesting that the LGBT join forces to create a new, inclusive group, you go on to say: "or could it be that people do not actually want to create that when its easier to destroy other peoples work???"......Who are the "people" that you refer to who do not want to create but instead destroy?

Oh...never mind. I'm not trying to fight with you....and perhaps my need to understand you is something I will need to let go of.:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

ok kate, I do apologise for making it appear that way.... the first part was a single statement.... instead of destroying the boy scouts...... the second part was a seperate statement... so I was actually saying, we need to be careful how much we try and change the scout movement, here is something we can look at doing things in a way that preserves the traditional, incorporates the modern and excludes nobody by way of belief or sexuality......

I am realistic in the fact that it may not be possible without having seperate groups...... bit like the muslim and christian scout dens..... but I would rather have a massive unified network of scouts, than a singular movement that excludes sexuality, excludes the religious aspect of the promise, removes the duty to the queen ( or king or other person ) and forces everybody to conform to one vision of the scout movement..... there will be nothing left of the traditional boy scouts movement and would also not reflect the respect and tolerance of others, mentioned in the scout law

at the local RSA ( returned services association ) we do the oath in maori and in english out of respect for both of the races that have served in NZ in the military... my RSA was the first to do it and honour all of the fallen, we are also the first to incorporate the police and the fire brigade so they can stand equal with the navy, army and airforce... there are some rsa that are refusing to change from the traditional set up and its gonna cost them as a few of them have closed down due to lack of membership.... so we were able to retain the traditional and add the modern aspects......

but now there is a move to stop the oath at 6 pm ( the tribute to the fallen ) as its a shared club... and the rsa members are saying hell no, we honour the fallen.... could you imagine having the US vets day and memorial day removed because of anti war protestors? some things are just too important to fuck with......

its the same with the scout movement, its possible to retain the traditional and incorporate the modern, but the move to remove aspects of the core of the scout promise is a concern to me...... and it is those type of people that I was referring to... the ones that would seek to remove the reference to god ( in the christian form only ) and to the queen ( or king or other person depending on the country ) ( a anti monarchy stance )

baden powell in the 1920s ( I think ) created a alternative version to the scouts promise....that allowed for no reference to god/s in the promise and that was extended to 5 countries ( I think ) so he foresaw the need to be considerate of others and their beliefs and rights.....( wise man that practiced what he practiced )
The WOSM Constitution explains "Duty to God" as "Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom." ( to a wiccan ) like me, I do not worship the goddess, I honour her... saying duty to god, for me, would be the adherence to spiritual principals and a declaration of that... for a agnostic or atheist, it could be a declaration of their beliefs in whatever they percieve....so the move to remove the christian reference to god but NOT the muslam reference to allah, is a modern aspect and stinks ( to me anyway ) of people that have a issue with christianity.... so there is room to move within the traditional sense of the boy scout movement..... but the key issue there, is what about the people that want to do the traditional promise to god and queen / king and country..... they would lose their right to do so as there is no compromise on that behalf unless they simply do not utter those words or parts of them.....

that is where I would compromise with a dual promise and compromise with the right to utter the words or parts of the words in regards to queen / king or country.... or the create, not destroy that I was referring to... as it encompasses the aspects of the scout law in regards to respect of others and keeps within the theme of scouting.......

but as positive and as tolerant and accepting as that all is... you can quarantee that some people still would not be happy that what they want removed, stays and what they wanted, is added as a compromise. and once again they are the people that I am referring to as the people that would rather destroy than create......

and for my next trick, I am going to create world peace ........ just do not hold your breath waiting to see people accept my ideas, you will turn blue like a smurf.....

[æonpax]

The Guardian published this the other day.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/chuck-norris-anti-gay-scouts which while funny is a bit of a sad reflection the the Boy Scout movement in the US.. it also begs the question just what have boys to fear a lesbian Scout Leader? is she a misandrist who likes humiliating and trodding on guys or whatever age out of hate? Apparently not.. was she bad at her job?? Not that either it seems. Did parents freak out about her? Nope. Popular with the lads she gets the boot because apparently the American boy Scout movement doesn't allow gays to run its troops...the Girl Scout movement has no problem with it I understand so why the difference? And the Boy Scouts in the UK has no problem with it either.. what I wonder do they do to boys who are gay if found out? Do they too get the chop? It's a question cos I don't know.. but the chances are that most have at least one..

Never did rate Chuck Norris as an actor and have always thought him quite an odious individual so his intervention doesn't surprise me in the least. The type of films he makes too I wouldn't even have on telly if the leccie was free an' they paid me a month's wages...

I never did want to be a Girl Scout, but did once go along to Girl's Brigade meeting cos me m8 wos in it (she in Seattle who Fran is nipping over to see ver shortly...) and it is quite a musical organisation and even then I was pretty useful on guitar and could play drums a bit. I left before the first prayer when told.. yes told.. to close me eyes lower me head and make obeisance to God... no disrespect to any who believe in God but it isn't my thing now and neither was it when I was 12... and marching like an idiot in a band wasn't my thing.. much too holy Jo for Fran and much too regimented for her taste.. me mum and dad both warned me.. but who at the age of 12 listens to parents? But they, like the Boys Brigade also allow gay's to run them... and they are, or were much more of a religious organisation than the Scouts... so Fran ran as fast as 'er lil legs cud carry 'er an a few weeks later joined the Woodcraft Folk... much more fun, no religion and if I got some mickey taking from m8's for being twee I didn't care... and when I told the world I was bisexual.. no one in the Folk laughed nastily even if they did give me some good natured stick..ver supportive they were an' no-one batted an eyelid:bigrin:... 'cept one girl who almost batted me wen I made a move on 'er 1 nite under canvas on Skye:yikes2:..o well... cudn't get laid every day:(... teach me 2 read the the wrong message in the signals they give out...:eek2:


I don't know how the scouting programs run on your end of the pond. I never was a Girl Scout but I do allow local BSA and GSA groups to use my land to camp on.

I also don't see much of them in the news save the occasional pompous pronouncement made by the extreme obscenity known as Rush Limbaugh about how the GSA has been over-rum with Lesbians who are out to destroy "American Family Values" (such as divorce, obesity, infidelity, etc)

I do know the GSA (Girl Scouts of America) are grappling with the social complexities of being a female in a very positive manner, much to the chagrin of those groups who'd just as soon that women did not even have the right to vote.

[Long Duck Dong]

Lesbians who are out to destroy "American Family Values" (such as divorce, obesity, infidelity, etc)

that part made me laugh so much that I had tears running down my face......

I had a vision of some guy, red faced pounding his fist on a desk, glaring out of the tv, near screaming with spittle in all directions and saying... " we need to protect our good old family values from those lesbians..... they are trying to shut down MC'donalds and take away the 4x big mac breakfast deal that my 3rd wife and my mistresses both want on sundays..... I swear them dammed lesbians are destroying this country with their underhanded brainwashing techniques of healthy food, exercise and not allowing my 2 mistresses to reach 300 pounds each.... I am telling you people of the risks to this great country of mine that was proudly built on KFC and slaves, that we need to shut down those lesbians before they teach our children not to be mistresses to people like me and they decide to be in marriages with husbands and wives and raising a lesbian army that is going to take over the world and turn us all into vegans on treadmills "......

sorry.... had to share that....

[elian]

Ooh that's good - sounds domineering - I'm going to do a search on youpr0n for "Vegans on treadmills" right now.. <grins>

I firmly believe that when people talk about "Family Values" they are talking about a romanticized notion in their head. My own experience has been so unorthodox that I can't imagine any family being able to live the perfect "Brady Bunch" life. Most of the Christmas-es I have had have been fairly good, but none of them were ever even close to the pictures painted by Norman Rockwell..it is usually a very hectic time.

It must just infuriate certain folks that every family isn't a husband, wife 2.5 kids and half a dog. "Sorry folks, but rules is rules".

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Whoa! Fran! Youre coming to Seattle? Let me know when, I'd love to call you and say hello/..:}
And Im a bit confused aboyut the Chuck Norris part...Somebody want to fill me in? When the Ex and I met him he seemed to be a very nice person, but thats when he was speaking at a Veterans Memorial dedication in Sacramento mahy years ago...
Have fun and be safe coming over Darlin..:}
Cat

[tenni]

Whoa! Fran! Youre coming to Seattle? Let me know when, I'd love to call you and say hello/..:}
And Im a bit confused aboyut the Chuck Norris part...Somebody want to fill me in? When the Ex and I met him he seemed to be a very nice person, but thats when he was speaking at a Veterans Memorial dedication in Sacramento mahy years ago...
Have fun and be safe coming over Darlin..:}
Cat

Cat Sweetheart
Check the article referenced in the OP as it refers to Chuck

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/chuck-norris-anti-gay-scouts

[æonpax]

that part made me laugh so much that I had tears running down my face......I had a vision of some guy, red faced pounding his fist on a desk, glaring out of the tv, near screaming with spittle in all directions and saying... " we need to protect our good old family values from those lesbians..... they are trying to shut down MC'donalds and take away the 4x big mac breakfast deal that my 3rd wife and my mistresses both want on sundays..... I swear them dammed lesbians are destroying this country with their underhanded brainwashing techniques of healthy food, exercise and not allowing my 2 mistresses to reach 300 pounds each.... I am telling you people of the risks to this great country of mine that was proudly built on KFC and slaves, that we need to shut down those lesbians before they teach our children not to be mistresses to people like me and they decide to be in marriages with husbands and wives and raising a lesbian army that is going to take over the world and turn us all into vegans on treadmills "......sorry.... had to share that....


I was being sarcastic, of course. The US political right doesn't tout that "family values" mantra much anymore. The hypocrisy of such a thing has been well documented.

[subcd]

My 2 cents...

The rules were clearly stated before she became den mother, but she and the local scout leaders chose to ignore the rules of the organization. I have no sympathy for her and don't understand why she would want to be part of a group that does not accept her. I understand the desire to help her kid(s) and be a part of their lives but this seems like a trumped up issue. I believe the BSA should be allowed to make up it's own rules and those rules should be accepted.

For the record, I'm not opposed to lesbians and gay people being allowed to participate in children's activities. I think everyone focusing on the whole pedophile/molestation angle was a red herring. BSA's issues with gay/lesbian scoutmasters has nothing to do with the risk of molestation and everything to do with the beliefs on which the organization is based.

Live and Let Live.