Religious Circumcision

[pepperjack]

Hi Dark. Long time, no see; I miss you; you were so amusing & entertaining. As for the topic, I was born in post WW2 Germany. My grandfather was religious & persecuted by the nazis for refusing to salute Hitler; grandmother was brutally punched in the face. "Me spunky 'lil Mum was jailed for calling a German policeman a " nazi pig!" I will love you forever for how you brightened up my life. In the end, love is all that matters; see ya in eternity!

[jimdawg]

Zionist racism? What on earth does Israel have to do with this? Unless, you mean, "I hate Jews" Zionism. Zionism in definition is Israeli nationalism. Israel wasn't brought up once here, sir. If you want to criticize it correctly, you have to drop the codewords and say "Jew"-Zionism, contextually, makes zero sense here, and you yourself are the reason people never buy the "Not anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist" attitude-because you prove how close the two are.

Again, saying "Zionist racism" makes zero sense in this discussion. That fails to explain the original event, Muslim circumcision.


I've seen white racism (whites hating others). I've seen black racism (blacks hating others). I've seen Jewish racism (Jews hating others).
Even the blacks with the predominant anti-gay epithet have recently abated (black groups have separated from NAACP due to change in moral and official policy toward gays).
Jamie is playing the (completely invalid) race card again... and I would not be surprised if Jamie was also "Effectively Deleted".
Jamie, yours and "Effectively Deleted"'s posts and positions superimpose Zionist racism over ethics/morality.
Jamie, and "Effectively Deleted"....
why does God want you to sexually mutilate babies?
So you don't have to throw them in the fire to their death anymore?
While we humans are omnivores, it is truly morally regrettable that we must raise and kill many animals to feed ourselves.
does your race still kill multitudes of little animals to please God?

Faith is one thing. Harming yourself in the name of faith... okay... we all should lend some space here, as an adult choice for self.
Harming others in the name of your faith... that crosses (blunders/blobs across) a morality line.
Do you see that line? Are you too racist to acknowledge it?
Early USA deemed the black race too evolutionary backwards to be citizens, therefore slavery was okay. Morality override.
Early North American conquest saw the heathens as too backwards, so it was okay to kill them and take their land (and gold). Morality override.
History is replete with morality overrides.
So to preach ignorance in the name of religion... is okay... if you want to teach your children that Earth is the center of the solar system and the universe, the earth is flat, people not of our religion are dogs (gentiles). Fine.
But to mutilate a child's penis, vagina, breasts... especially the sexual parts of the body... but also don't chop off toes, fingers. Don't harm eyes or perform lobotomies... etc.
Don't do these things. They are wrong.
If they were easily and painlessly completely reversible upon reaching adulthood... then maybe...
But that's not the case. That is totally not the case.
Your claim of racism only proves your position is racist. And thus your support of child mutilation is defined by your words as a racist gesture.

And with that you state that, the only way to prevent this sort of racism is Jewish and Muslim liquidation. Got it. Kill the Jews and Muslims, or force all babies away from their parents and let the religion die out through genocide that way. This is your final solution.


I don't think it should even be allowed on religious grounds. The brit milah often involves a rabbi sucking blood out of the cut foreskin and spitting it into a cup. Why are religions allowed to get away with things that other people would be put in jail for? In any other definition that would be pedophilia in the least. Male circumcision did not start because of hygiene, but sexual control. In the Abrahamic faiths it is considered a man's convenant with God to have his foreskin removed. Convenient that it hinders masturbation, and keratinizes the glans of the penis, no? Removing the foreskin makes it less pleasurable to masturbate without help from a lubricant. Masturbating the bare glans directly often results in chafing and broken skin. There may not be studies proving that circumcision results in loss of sensation, but there is evidence that a glans having lifelong exposure and lack of lubrication that is normally provided by the foreskin suffers damage. Foreskin is not just skin, it has sebaceous glands within it that keep the glans moist and lubricated. Without that, a keratin layer forms over the glans. It becomes rougher, and less sensitive. Just because you can experience sexual pleasure without a foreskin does not mean you're having it as good as it could have been. Circumcised guys often have to jerk off by jerking the shaft without having as much direct glans stimulation. Circumcision is about punishing excessive sexual behavior and hindering masturbation. It has nothing to do with cleanliness. Two words: soap and water. And if cleanliness is such a priority then trimming your crotch hair would have a much better effect than cutting off foreskin. There are a lot of botched circumcisions in the world, or they are done too tight. People's cosmetic preference for cut cocks is sickening. They are so used to looking at a mutilated penis that an in-tact, normal one looks foreign to them. If you won't go down on someone because they have a foreskin then you're a moron; and if your partner is unclean down there then he needs to become more acquainted with soap and water. Circumcision is bad parenting. If you get your newborn cut then you're an idiot without a brain. They were born perfect and should be left that way. If you're too stupid to know how to clean your own baby's foreskin then you shouldn't be having children. This is a matter of rights. A lot of men out there growing up resenting that their foreskin was removed without their consent. I'm one of them. A lot of men would have liked to be able to jerk off without the help of lube, and not see a scar line around their dick. This practice is sick and needs to be stopped.

Wow. Uh...have you ever been to a circumcision? Rabbis sucking blood out of a child's penis? I've gone pretty religious bris'es. I haven't been happy about going. But that did NOT happen. Go back to reading David Duke. That is almost blood libel.

I'm glad that anti-circ people are going to ignore these two comments to justify their positions. Because, you know, these types of people aren't the type feared by Jews and Muslims. Sure. Just believe in people saying similar arguments in similar tone as these people and everything will work out alright in the end!

...What's so hard to understand about my argument about lack of trust and racism here? Do I need to give you more proof? Rabbis are pedophiles who are also committing illegal acts?

I have a circumcision. Guess what? I have uncircumcised friends who chafe just as easily. Guess what? I don't need lube when I masturbate. Some of my circumcised friends do.

Turns out, your personal experience MIGHT be you having individual problems feeling insecure about your dick. Or it could be related to circumcision. You were circumcised in a hospital setting and have a range of problems I don't have, and as a result deem people of a different religion pedophiles. I would suggest you see a psychiatrist, and consider foreskin restoration: It might not supply the sensitivity, but if you're right, it would stop the chafing and hardening of the skin, no? Oh, and I thought you were a partnered bi woman in a relationship with another woman. Someone's lying here.

And I'm sick and tired of this argument that I could somehow experience more sexual pleasure. I get sensory overload at times as is from a really good blowjob. I couldn't experience more sexual pleasure without collapsing and having a seizure or heart attack. So knock off this bull about how I'll never enjoy an orgasm. I can, I have, I will. Seriously, you should have MY penis, as you clearly don't know what you're missing by your logic!

Oh, and everyone should smoke crack before sex. Enhance your pleasure!

And take heroin.

Because an orgasm that isn't as good as someone else's for whatever reason SHOULD NOT EXIST.

[Top fucker]

I agree with this post. As someone who is cut who has been with 100s of men most of who were cut circumcision does reduce sexual pleasure for men, and their partners. There's foreskin restoration which stretches out the remaining penile tissue and you don't get an actual foreskin or the large number of lost nerve endings back but you do regain some sensitivity that you've lost because of being cut. Yes during religious circumcisions or genital mutilations certain rabbis will suck the blood out of an infant boy.
A New York City infant contracted herpes last month as a result of an Orthodox Jewish procedure known as metzitzah b'peh (MBP) that involves orally sucking the blood off a newborn's penis after circumcision, according to the city's Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (DOHMH). The news, which came in an April 3 email alert from the New York City Bureau of Sexually Transmitted Disease Control, marks the 13th such case in New York City since 2000. Two of those infants died (including one last year), and two others have suffered brain damage as a result, according to a department alert from January.
Circumcision of a penis is genital mutilation and it detracts or takes away the natural astheticism of a penis the way it is supposed to be, and when it's done on an infant or young boy it's done without consent and just as bad as female circumcision. Also there are health issues associated with circumcision such as how if a man is cut he is a lot more likely to have erectile dysfunction, not to mention how circumcision makes a man's penis dry, less sensitive, smaller in length and circumference, and a lot of nerve endings are removed. I guess the term I'd say that a cut penis is that it's lacking something major which is a completely whole foreskin. I have seen some men who had half of their foreskin taken off and the rest left on but it begs the question why do anything to it at all in the first place? I feel bad for cut men since they have a penis that's far less sensitive than those of us who are in the majority and have a foreskin. When I have been single I did not refuse men who were cut but I felt bad for them since they didn't have a choice and their genitals were mutilated. Men should make this decision on their own bodies themselves, not have it made for them when they're an infant. I have met a lot of men who are cut who have told me how they are not happy with being cut and how they wished they'd been left intact instead of getting their foreskin literally ripped off which is what happens during a circumcision. Yes you can see the scar from genital mutilation on all circumcised men, and you can tell that the penis is not supposed to be that way. You do not have to be promiscuous, a "slut", or have had lots of male sexual partners in order to tell this. Or as I once wrote before, "Having sex with a guy that's cut is like having sex with a woman who is missing her clitoral hood and who has mutilated labia" as both female and male circumcision are equally as barbaric and are both mutilating someone's genitals. A circumcision scar represents conformity, abuse, genital mutilation, and in some cases pointless religious dogma. It's 2013 there's no need to mutilate anyone's genitals. Eventually the practice of mutilating a infant or boy's genitals will die off and become illegal, since worldwide most men are intact, have no issues with having an intact penis with a foreskin, and there are even Jews and Muslims who are not blinded by religious dogma who are against doing this to their sons. I found this image and it shows just what exactly is lost and just how majorly desensitized a penis is when it's cut or mutilated during a circumcision. This is a graphic that shows how severely less sensitive a cut penis is compared to an intact penis. It also references a study. http://i.imgur.com/SgS9q.png

[Top fucker]

Genital mutlation of a boy or girl for religious reasons is stupid. Yeah like God or the creator is going to say, "Welcome to the world! Now it's time to have part of your penis or vagina ripped off and mutilated!"

[CaArmyGuy]

Given the blood-curdling screaming of an infant during a circumcision, I see it a preventing cruelty against children.
You've clearly never witnessed a circumcision

[Top fucker]

You've clearly never witnessed a circumcision I have. The infants scream bloody murder and actually pass out from the shock of getting their penis mutilated. I've seen it in person and in video you can easily find online.

[James1A1]

The stupidest thing I haver ever done was to get circumcised when I was a sophomore in college.

I had just joined a fraternity. All "Proper" gentleman were circumcised. It meant you came from a "good" family.

The pressure I got from the guys was bearable, but when I started dating a sorority girl I could not handle it. She very much wanted me to be cut. The word spread quickly and soon all her sorority sisters were telling me that I must have it done, I will reap the benefits. They said I had all the makings of a clean-cut, all American boy next door except for my foreskin. They said they actually felt embarrasment of me and for me.
So under much fan-fair, I went to the university clinic and had it done.
I shall tell you this, it sucked, and it really hurt. I guess I had to "be a man" and just not complain.

Here is the absolute irony:
I had it done near the end of the spring semester. I could not have sex due to it healing. My girlfriend went home to her family 3,000 miles away. I never actually saw her again.

Can you believe this shit? Talk about a fucking moron...yeah that's me.

And I can only blame myself.

So coming from an adult who rembers clearly "before" and "after".... "before" was so much better. Anyone that tells you otherwise either had a medical condition or has an agenda.

[tensy]

I like being cut. I think uncut dicks are ugly and one of the things I look for in a guy is a cut dick. Cut dicks are cleaner, smell better, resist STDs better including HIV (the foreskin provides easy entrance to HIV), and HPV and Syphilis, reduce cancer risk, basically eliminate pathogens growing on your dick like candida albicans and associated balanoposthitis and look better. Most women I've ever asked about it feel similarly to me. Head is plenty sensitive too. If I wasn't cut now, I get it done tomorrow.

[BiMaleAB]

I like being cut. I think uncut dicks are ugly and one of the things I look for in a guy is a cut dick. Cut dicks are cleaner, smell better [1], resist STDs better including HIV (the foreskin provides easy entrance to HIV), and HPV, Syphilis [2], reduce cancer risk [3], and look better [4]. Most women I've ever asked about it feel similarly to me [5]. Head is plenty sensitive too [6].

1. As long as proper hygiene is practiced this should not be a problem. Most men shower everday, so as long as it is cleaned daily, this is not an issue.

2. Evidence for this is still not great, and besides, we should be teaching our children about responsible use of condoms in order to truly mitigate these factors. Plenty of circumcized men have caught and proliferated these infections for centuries. These are also factors people use to justify female circumcision; do you believe that parents should chop off the labia and clitoris of their daughters' because doing so might prevent future infections?

3. Never heard this one before. Sounds dubious to me; Do you have a legimitate source to provide for this? Again, even if true, should we give masectomies to children because it will reduce their risk of breast cancer later in life? Should we pre-emptively have the appendix removed from a child because it could develop appendicitis in the future?

4. Subjective opinion, which you are validating through the fallacies of confirmation basis and communal reinforcement.

5. See point 4; if the women you talk to came from a generation/society where almost all men we not circumcized, the would probably think your penis looked goofy.

6. Depending on the type of circumcision performed in your infancy, you can still have reasonable sensitivity. The chart posted above shows what happens to the penis when the "full covenant with god" is made. The whole point there is being to numb the male sexual experience. I presume your circumcision was not the full cut. At any rate I am assuming the procedure was performed without your consent shortly after your birth, so it is difficult for you to glean lost sensitivity having never experienced it, except for the pain you experienced as an infant when the skins was cut from your person (which fortunately you almost certainly have no memory of).


Finally, none of your points are sufficient to justify a person taking a sharp implement, cutting off and multilating a portion of a child's genitalia, causing extreme pain and suffering to a defenseless little child.
Even if points 2 and 3 may be true, this still does not justify performing this procedure without consent. If an uncircumcized individual grows up to a consenting age and feels the need to cut their foreskin off, then by all means let them make that choice for themselves.

[tensy]

Wikipedia has info and links to sources.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision

[tensy]

It's often done for religious reasons. It just also happens to be a smart thing to do in that it yields a healthier and better looking cock.

[tensy]

Personally, I think a lot of the anti-circumcision people sound like nutjobs who are avoiding issues in their lives with their obsession. Circumcision has many benefits. I doubt there is anyway my dick could be more sensitive than it is... I don't think I would like it if it were any more sensitive. It's already very sensitive. Numb dick? Pure insanity. Even that posted thing "we always win" sounds loony tunes. Look, number one, uncut dicks look like aliens. They look like animal dicks. They are ugly to most people. Many polls show this. G is your friend. They get nasty fast and require a clean person to not become like this. They have increased risk of catching aids and other disease. Keep your uncut dicks and don't worry about others. If people want to circumsize their kid for religious purposes or health purposes, they should and do have that right. Mutiliation? NO, a better looking, way healthier tool that is still plenty enough sensitive. Thanks.

[tensy]

Circumcision has no benefits other than a dick with a nasty scar on it, a penis that's less sensitive, a smaller penis as circumcision reduces penile circumference and length, health issues such as impotentece, a dry penis that chafes very easily, and erectile dysfunction that happen to cut men later in life, and people who are pro genital mutilation claim it protects against STDs as well as condoms and safer sex do but this is not true at all.


That's crazy. First of all, the things you list are not benefits. The scar is small and looks better than that anteater look. Studies show circumcized men report no loss of sensitivity or dissatisfaction in their sex lives. If you are numb down there or suffering from impotence, you need to look at circulation or psychological issues. Dry penis? Sounds like you should have that checked cause I'm cut and it doesn't happen. Genital mutilation? You are equating the removal of skin associated with health problems with clit removal. This is so non equivalent that it is laughable. Lastly, you're just flat out wrong as there are known benefits, and some very big ones, with circumcision.

Aside from the fact they look gross and do get nasty quickly without specific cleansing attention, here are some of the reasons pediatricians have decided definitively that circumcision is the better choice, religious beliefs aside:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/08/27/159955340/pediatricians-decide-boys-are-better-off-circumcised-than-not


Just some of the benefits

Circumcised males are far less likely to get infected with a long list of sexually transmitted diseases.
90% less UTIs
Hetero HIV infection drops 60%
Reduction of HPV spread to wives and girlfriend lessening their cervical cancer risk
Reduced penile cancer

[tensy]

1. A penis that's got a foreskin looks the same as a penis that's cut except there's no ugly scar. Yes the scar is there, it's noticible, and it's ugly. I'd much rather be with a man who has all of his penis and all of its parts than a guy that's mutilated there are lots of pleasurable things you can do with a man's foreskin that you can 't do with a dick that's cut. Plus a dick that's cut is akin to castration. 2.I never said I have ED, dry dick, or a numb penis but I have met and had sex with lots of cut men who do. The uncut men I have been with do not have these issues at all. 3.The foreskin is meant to be on a penis just like a clitoral hood is meant to be on a woman. Male circumcision is gential mutilation and it's just as bad if not worse than female circumcision. 4.Circumcision does not prevent UTI infection I know men who are cut who have had them. Women get UTIs all the time yet nobody is saying we should remove tissues from their genitals. If circumcision did actually prevent HIV infection you would not see lots of Heterosexual HIV+ women as there are in the United States even though the media likes to pretend that HIV is something that mainly only happens to gay/bi men, and junkies. I know lots of cut men who have HPV and women who have cut boyfriends or husbands who gave them HPV. Again the penile cancer argument is laughable.

Well my experience has been different. The few times I was with uncut guys long ago their dicks had an off yeasty smell, and the guys otherwise seemed to be reasonably clean. For me, I don't like the smell or the look. My cut dick works fine. It's plenty sensitive. I like the way it looks. There are no pockets where candida and other pathogens can grow. I can miss a shower or even two (not something I do often) and not have stink dick. I love the way the head looks, all straight up and regal looking. And if it also offers me some protection against HIV and other STDs, UTIs etc, well then that is an awesome bonus in my view.

[BiMaleAB]

It's often done for religious reasons. It just also happens to be a smart thing to do in that it yields a healthier and better looking cock.

This is the worst reason. Do you believe that some muslim parents should have the "right" to hack off their daughters' labia and clitoris?

Uncircumcized penises are plenty healthy with proper hygiene. By your reasoning we ought to pull out peoples' teeth, since some people don't practice proper hygiene and therefore have disgusting mouths.

[tensy]

I'm talking about circumcision here, which is nothing at all like hacking off a clitoris.
Uncut dicks are not healthy if they allow you to catch HIV when a cut one would have stopped it at the head.

[BiMaleAB]

Well my experience has been different. The few times I was with uncut guys long ago their dicks had an off yeasty smell, and the guys otherwise seemed to be reasonably clean. For me, I don't like the smell or the look. My cut dick works fine. It's plenty sensitive. I like the way it looks. There are no pockets where candida and other pathogens can grow. I can miss a shower or even 2 (not something I do often) and not have stink dick. I love the way the head looks, all straight up and regal looking. And if it also offers me some protection against HIV and other STDs, UTIs etc, well then that is an awesome bonus in my view.

You still have not demonstrated valid reasons to subject children to this painful and sexually stunting procedure other than the fatuous "religious grounds". The bible covenants that we should stone adulterers, yet we seem to be doing just fine ( and much better) without this barbaric practice.

and I fel strongly about this because I exquate it to exactly what it is: the physical abuse and mutilation of a child. Another point your arguments fail to address.

[tensy]

The reason to do it is to prevent disease. This is why american pediatricians recommend it. End of story.

[Gearbox]

On a purely religious point (seeing as it's Christmas.:rolleyes:) -doesn't the conviction that foreskin is a flaw in man's anatomy equate to God being a bad designer?
That is often an argument put forth by evolutionists who are anti-designer, and only gives more credibility to the belief that there is no God.
What an odd thing to keep going for religious reasons.:confused:

[BiMaleAB]

Well my experience has been different. The few times I was with uncut guys long ago their dicks had an off yeasty smell, and the guys otherwise seemed to be reasonably clean. For me, I don't like the smell or the look. My cut dick works fine. It's plenty sensitive. I like the way it looks. There are no pockets where candida and other pathogens can grow. I can miss a shower or even two (not something I do often) and not have stink dick. I love the way the head looks, all straight up and regal looking. And if it also offers me some protection against HIV and other STDs, UTIs etc, well then that is an awesome bonus in my view.

Dealing with your argument for aesthetics (which is totally subjective anyhow): You have mades your personal preference very clear, and that is fine; however your own personal preference should never determine the right of an individual to be subjected to this procedure without their consent. Your personal preference does not serve as justification for the non-consentual mutilation of the genitalia.

On a side note, with most uncircumcized penises of adults, the foreskin draws back almost completely when a full erection occurs, so in your case, this is how you would usually encounter such a penis i would think?

Seond side note, while I would not know from comparative personal experience, it sure seems easier (and more pleasurable) for me to masturbate (particularly in a no lube situation) than circumcized counter parts.

[BiMaleAB]

The reason to do it is to prevent disease. This is why american pediatricians recommend it. End of story.

Come again? http://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/pages/Newborn-Male-Circumcision.aspx

"After a comprehensive review of the scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics found the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The AAP policy statement published Monday, August 27, says the final decision should still be left to parents to make in the context of their religious, ethical and cultural beliefs."

So completely counter to your statement the AAP does not recommend newborn circumcision.

So explain to me again why the hacking at the genitals of babies should be common practice in conjunction with my arguments stated above?

[BiMaleAB]

I'm talking about circumcision here, which is nothing at all like hacking off a clitoris.
Uncut dicks are not healthy if they allow you to catch HIV when a cut one would have stopped it at the head.

Why are you having unprotected sex with partners of unknown STI status either way? You can catch HIV when you are uncircumcized as well. Enough with this ridiculous argument.

Hacking at the foreskin of a baby boy is a disgusting act as well. do you think it is right to take a scalpel (or the mouth of an orthodox mohel) and use it to remove part of the genitalia of a screaming child?

[tensy]

Well common sense tells you they are in favor of it and are recommending it for the reasons given. "There is clear evidence that supports the health benefits of circumcision," said Susan Blank, who led the 14-member task force that formulated being published in the journal Pediatrics.

Here is an interesting site that debunks the myths put out by many anti-circumcision extremists:

As an example, the claim that circ. results in sex problems later in life is completely false. Studies show the opposite.
And you will see this again and again.


www.circumcisioninformation.com/circ_record.html (http://www.circumcisioninformation.com/circ_record.html#anchor11r)

[tensy]

HIV doesn't care if you're cut. Do you think that HIV and other STDs when they encounter a cut dick that doesn't have a condom on say, "oh wait, wait we can't infect this man he's cut!"? Of course not. You can still get infected with HIV and lots of other STDs if you are cut. If you're sexually active today you probably have had sex with someone who is HIV+ or has an STD and you probably are infected if you're having unsafe sex with random people like you've posted about.

Well, if you're not cut, it might have an easier time negotiating the foreskin as has been put forth as an infection route and then you got it. I always fuck safely and am very concerned about STDs etc. But condoms fail, people sometimes don't use condoms, partners cheat etc. Being cut is apparently an extra barrier according to science versus not cut.

[tensy]

I read the link it's all bullshit and lies promoted by doctors who profit from male genital mutilation and who are pro genital mutilation.

Well that's that then.

[chuck1124]

For those of you who claim there is no medical evidence that circumcision prevents disease, you are sure reading the wrong things. I can only give you my experience. I am circumsized, my brother is not. I don't know why my parents were talked into not having it done for my brother. My mother did tell me, when my own son was born, that, my brother, as a infant, did have infection she had to deal with. And urinary infections is something he has had off and on. The evidence is very clear that HIV is less likely with a cut penis. Yes, condoms are better, but why take that chance. I do not remember being circumsized. I do find is interesting that so many people that are so worried about the rights of a child don't seem to have a problem with abortion.

[BiMaleAB]

Why are you having unprotected sex with partners of unknown STI status either way? You can catch HIV when you are circumcized as well. Enough with this ridiculous argument.

Hacking at the foreskin of a baby boy is a disgusting act as well. do you think it is right to take a scalpel (or the mouth of an orthodox mohel) and use it to remove part of the genitalia of a screaming child?

Quoted for typo correction

[BiMaleAB]

For those of you who claim there is no medical evidence that circumcision prevents disease, you are sure reading the wrong things. I can only give you my experience. I am circumsized, my brother is not. I don't know why my parents were talked into not having it done for my brother. My mother did tell me, when my own son was born, that, my brother, as a infant, did have infection she had to deal with. And urinary infections is something he has had off and on. The evidence is very clear that HIV is less likely with a cut penis. Yes, condoms are better, but why take that chance. I do not remember being circumsized. I do find is interesting that so many people that are so worried about the rights of a child don't seem to have a problem with abortion.

Strawman argument. No one here that I have read has even mentioned abortion. Besides i do have a problem with abortion (would have never wanted my wife to do it unless medically necessary) however it is a much more complex issue.

Why should we not be worried about the rights of a born, living and breathing child then? You offer up a strawman instead of an answer to this important question.

[joavi]

Im circumsized

[void()]

Im circumsized

Likewise. For a time it seemed the "all merikan" thing to be done.
It happened beyond my kin of control though. I would like to reget
it being done, just have difficulty as it was not my choice.
Oh well, raised with wolves as Lycian of Sparta chose, guess
you get fleas. *shrugs*

[MinesUncut]

When I was in high school all the cut guys would make fun of the uncut guys.............we were the minority.........at least in my school. If I knew then what I knew now I would have made those cut bull shitters all look like fools. I have had more women and men who I have fucked around with tell me that my uncut meat pleased them more than any cut cock. One person was totally against getting it on with me...................but I was persistent. Once I got into it with the person they loved it.
So you cut guys....................go about your way..............enjoy it. I'll keep my unut meat and all the pleasure it brings not just to me but to all the wonderful folks I may share it with!!

[robert4friends]

I am circumcised. My father was not. I have never had an issue or ever found a down side to being circumcised. It is a ridiculous statement that it was something cruel that was done to me. I am glad it was done. I have enjoyed my penis for a very long time with no issues of any kind. Men I have been with who are not circumcised have had some surgical snipping done later in life because of discomfort when having an erection or have mentioned some pain if manipulated in some way. I sure would not have wanted that for myself. That has been my experience. My feelings are that the push to ban circumcision is another case of people of one religion or culture who are trying to decide for everyone else what is right. That is always wrong. Circumcised or not, both have worked just fine for thousands of years so why is it even an issue? Why can we not just enjoy a world where people are different and like different things.

[darkeyes]

I am circumcised. My father was not. I have never had an issue or ever found a down side to being circumcised. It is a ridiculous statement that it was something cruel that was done to me. I am glad it was done. I have enjoyed my penis for a very long time with no issues of any kind. Men I have been with who are not circumcised have had some surgical snipping done later in life because of discomfort when having an erection or have mentioned some pain if manipulated in some way. I sure would not have wanted that for myself. That has been my experience. My feelings are that the push to ban circumcision is another case of people of one religion or culture who are trying to decide for everyone else what is right. That is always wrong. Circumcised or not, both have worked just fine for thousands of years so why is it even an issue? Why can we not just enjoy a world where people are different and like different things.No one is trying to stop circumcision.. what we argue is that unless there is pressing medical need, the only person who should decide to have himself circumcised is that person himself when old enough to be able to to make the decision for himself based on all the information available... not Rabbi, Imam, Parents or anyone else based on an ancient religious practice. Offer foreskin to God by all means.. but just make it ur own not that a young child who has no say and may well in time lose the religion into which his parents have pressed him... many do u know... why is it an issue? It is a removal from millions of young children the free will to decide what to do with an important part of their body... is it all so difficult to understand:eek2:?

[beersandmeat]

Someone's talking out of their ass and spreading their own agenda for genital mutilation. I doubt the uncut (intact) men who you were with all had to get cut later in life. I'm not cut and I've never had to get cut, neither has any uncut man in my family, and the majority of men in the world who are not cut do not have any issues or need to get cut. Meanwhile in this thread we have mutilated cut men talking out of their asses claiming that their penises work fine even though circumcision has been proven to cause erectile dysfunction and give the owner of said penis an uglier smaller and thinner penis that is far less sensitive and one that's painful during intercourse both vaginal and anal and a penis that's less pleasurable to your male and female partners. I'm sure some cut guy will claim this is all wrong but how would he know? We have men who were uncut posting saying how it was 1,000X better than when they were intact with a foreskin than it ever was when they were cut. Cut dicks are gross.


I understand everyone argument that it should be the individual who make the decision to get himself cut or not, but I doubt the are many men if any would would elect to have this done. All any of you have talked about is whether it is medically necessary for a CHILD to have the procedure performed. None of you have seem to even consider the health benefits of being cut as you get older. There is a great chance, in fact almost gaurnteed, that your dick with stop working one day, and will shrivel up. Those of you uncut, will inevitably battle urinary tract and yeast infections until you go get it cut, or the nursing home makes your family take you to have it done. I have had men in my family who had to do just that in their late life, and believe me they wished it would have been done so early in life they wouldn't have remembered the pain. I for one am thankful that I will never have to "remember" that kind of pain.

[beersandmeat]

Again there's yet another cut guy with an agenda talking out of his ass. They're mad that their genitals are mutilated, less sensitive, ugly with a scar, and are now smaller and thinner than they would have been had they been left intact so they talk out of their asses, are jealous of uncut men, and claim that if you're uncut you simply will get health issues when this is not true. The majority of men worldwide are intact with a foreskin and have no issues with their penises including UTIs or Yeast infections. I've never had either and neither have my father, grandfather and my great-grandfather when he was alive did not have any issues with his penis and none of us are cut. Women get tons of UTIs and yeast infections yet nobody is claiming that women should get parts of their vagina removed, or maybe beersandmeat is actually advocating that women get surgery on their vulva so they don't get as many UTIs or yeast infections?

Your completely right, women do deal with those issue regularly, and do you know why? Because they dont clean well enough or go take a piss after having sex. I guess I should have added that to my original post seeing as how we are only talking about cocks. Read a fucking book you idiot.

[Annika L]

Again there's yet another cut guy with an agenda talking out of his ass.

Heh, here no more than 6 hours...12 posts...1/6 of them are about circumcision...*who* is it that has the agenda?

[Newly_Bi]

I just thought of something. Why isn't circumcision akin to cutting off the clitoris? similar things happen with both doesn't it? you become less sensitive and sex becomes less pleasurable. Now that I am an adult, I am so pissed that I wasn't given the choice and had my foreskin cut off when I was a new born. My kids will have that choice.

[Long Duck Dong]

its different for each person..... and that is what people forget, they use the argument that circumcised people can not enjoy sex as much because somebody did a study.......

what can happen during the study is that they use sensors on the penis to measure nerve impulses as a way of determining sensitivity.... but sensitivity is not always a key factor in enjoyment, some people perfer light touch, others like rough play and pain..... and sex is no different, some circumcised people are very sensitive, others are not and some uncircumcised people are very sensitive, some are not.....

what is not really mentioned in any of the threads is that some adult circumcised people get cut so they can enjoy sex because they are too sensitive with a foreskin to the point that sex is actually painful.... but a adult circumcision can be better performed as the nerves are fully developed and so its possible to work on the foreskin better than with a child.....

I am not pro or anti circumcision, I am more middle of the road as I understand that in some cases, circumcision is something that we will never get rid of, there are times that its medically needed and a choice is better than no choice..... but I am amused at the way that people feel the need to crusade on the issue with the statements they do, like it makes their argument more valid if they are insulting or degrading others.....

it comes across like they can not express their feelings and opinions on circumcision in a constructive and valid format without calling people mutilated, disfiqured, disfunctional and incapable of sexual contentment and enjoyment........ and it makes me wonder if they feel the same way about a woman that has had a hysterectomy that loses all interest in sex and sexual activities because even if the hysterectomy is involuntary ( medically needed ) a woman will often bear scars and lack of enjoyment... and the uterus is part of the internal clitoral structure as well as the cervix......

the foreskin is only part of the male sex organ, its not the whole deal, the same as the clit on a woman is only part of her sex organs, its not the whole deal.... but many people lack a true understanding of the full sexual area of a person and so cut people can enjoy a full and happy sex life as well as uncut people...... it doesn't mean that circumcision is acceptable, it just means that the anti circumcision crusaders need a platform of insults and degrading remarks to use because saying that they do not agree with circumcision, is not really good trolling material

[Annika L]

Why isn't circumcision akin to cutting off the clitoris? similar things happen with both doesn't it? you become less sensitive and sex becomes less pleasurable.

Seriously??

It's because cutting off the clitoris doesn't make a woman *less* sensitive and sex *less* pleasurable...it makes a woman insensate and sex unpleasant.

I feel for you if you feel you've been slighted by your parents' interpretation of looking out for you...but don't go equating that with torture.

[Newly_Bi]

Seriously??

It's because cutting off the clitoris doesn't make a woman *less* sensitive and sex *less* pleasurable...it makes a woman insensate and sex unpleasant.

I feel for you if you feel you've been slighted by your parents' interpretation of looking out for you...but don't go equating that with torture.


No need to get mad annika, it was a simple curiosity I had, as both are done in the culture I was raised in.

[Long Duck Dong]

actually I do not bother with pro and anti circumcision sites or groups because many of them act like you do....... I perfer to read medical journals about case files that are individual medical cases and not used to push a agenda as I have a interest in the human body... and the experiences of people themselves that do not have a site trolling agenda but can engage in intelligent and verbose discussion and debate without trying to be like a school yard bully

I am pro choice, a bit like the people that can actually choose to ignore your ongoing trolling of the site, freedom of choice where possible to deal with issues of life, love, health and putting people on ignore....

involuntary hysterectomies are the ones where medical intervention is needed, while most women have a choice in that, they do not really have a choice in why the uterus is needed to be removed and if many of them want to live a * normal * life again, they basically have no choice......

as for the removal of the foreskin, its the result of hypersensivity of the nerve endings in the foreskin where the slighest touch of fabric or another person can result in inflamed nerve endings and there is also the less common issue of vagina secretion hyperallergic reaction where the foreskin can blister and being inflamed due to a issue with a reaction to the vagina.......

however I forget that your ability to be insulting and obnoxious gives you a far greater knowledge of all things in the world than specialists, experts and professionals in the field of medical science and there is no possible way that any of the conditions can happen because you have not insulted somebody with the conditions therefore they can not exist.
tho I suppose in the great scheme of things that is not a bad thing, I assume that you reason that if you insult people enough that you may be able to cure aids or even create a master race of people that will change the world by insulting people in forums...... personally I doubt that will happen, too many people just put people like you on ignore and that makes their world a better place....

so I wish you a pleasant evening and may you have the sweetest dreams about how you are going to continue to be rude and obnoxious.... well until people report this account of yours to drew and you respawn under a new name in the vain hope that somebody will actually give a shit what you post and think.......

[Long Duck Dong]

Here's a medical journal.

a commonly used article from google.... do you know the full details of the references used in the study... IE the article in the biblography ( oh sorry, big word, let me dumb it down for you, it means references to other articles and sources of information.... no wait, lets water it down more.... how about we copied somebody elses work without checking it ) by o'hara and o'hara was found to be flawed in that of the women surveyed that said they preferred circumcised males after child birth, only 16.5% of them has actually slept with both circumcised and uncircumcised males.... 5 females in total.....we have had more females post in this site about their preferences than were involved in the survey....

the article is a copy of a copy of a copy of a article that was written based around flawed research but its on the net so it must mean that its true and that its proof that you are not a troll with google ?

may you would like to google the major RCT studies done on the effects of circumcised and uncircumcised males performance during sex.... there were 7 done, NONE of them found that there was any marked and noticeable difference between sex with a circumcised and uncircumcised male
RCT means Random Controlled Testing, it means that the subjects are chosen randomly to ensure a cross section of society and the testing is done under controlled circumstances to ensure the best results..

The final results showed that it actually came down to the amount of foreplay, sexual interaction and the ability of the woman to remain moist during sex.... something that was NOT tested by o'hara and o'hara and other studies have found that even with a foreskin, some woman dry pretty fast during sex because of a issue with their bodies......

now the goal of a person when trying to prove their point, is to present evidence that has not been disputed by medical professionals, is conducted under controlled circumstances and has data sources and references that do indicate the testing and circumstances of the tests... your post fails on all of those issues because you used a 10 year old article that has been reposted on many sites but is no longer considered to be factual findings....

so I suggest that you stop trying to post your googled posts and also do not mail me your crap either as I am not really interested.....

circumcision is circumcision, there are times that it is needed, times that it is not and that is simply a fact of life.... I am not going to treat anybody any differently because of their cut or uncut penis and nor am I swayed in any way, shape or form by a googling copy and paste troll because there is nothing of value in your posts, opinions and multiple accounts.

I have stated, I believe in simple english, that I am very well aware that part removal of the foreskin can result in some loss of sensation so your attempt to prove that circumcision can cause that effect, is a wasted effort of googling as I am very well aware of that aspect but thank you for making the time and effort to troll more for me, its very much appreciated and of no real interest to me......

so on that note, I do hope you have a good time googling anything that you can find to post in the hope that somebody cares and that you may actually post something worth reading.... may I suggest that you try referencing the journal of neurosurgery: pediatrics section, it makes for some good reading by experts and professionals... tho be careful it has some big words in it.... and you may need access to the journal as its generally not open to the public to be used as a reference tool for trolling..... however I have the advantage that I am friends with some medical experts and they often share articles with me because I enjoy reading them......

or you may want to check out some other articles that deal with micro cellular regeneration of soft tissue using the inner lining of the human nasal passage, they have done some very interesting research and studies into the amputation and regeneration of pig penises and believe that the implications of using that research with the regeneration of foreskin tissue, may result in a naturally regenerated foreskin for circumcised males.... I know that they are talking about a 2 year regeneration period because they need to begin at the micro cellular level using tissue cultures in a med lab but there is hope for cut males that wish to regain what they have lost.......

or you may want to try reading about the same techniques with stem cell research.... tho there is a issue, a lot of the anti circumcision advocates are opposing that research as they have issues with it because they are protesting the use of aborted fetuses being harvested for stem cells, so they need somebody that is quick to use misinformation without checking facts because the researchers have found re-occurring natural sources of stem cells in the human body that can be used to help cut males foreskin regeneration and are not using aborted fetuses at all.......

oh sorry, big words again.... I seem to have trouble there because I can write and read big words without using google and copy / paste.... and I am sorry that google translate will not water the big words down for you but thats life...

so have a good night and sleep well..... I would give you a hug but I am a cut male and heaven forbid a cut male show any sensitivity at all

[Annika L]

What do you think male circumcision does? It's not "looking out" for a child it's mutilating their genitals and making his penis insensate and sex not nearly as pleasant as it would be had his genitals be left intact. Yeah it is akin to torture, child molestation, and it's involuntary genital mutilation.

I have never heard an instance of a circumcised male describing sex as unpleasant. Nor have I heard of them having difficulty reaching orgasm (of course both circumcised and uncircumcised males can have issues with this...I mean I've never heard it linked to a successful circumcision...one where things went as they were supposed to). Whereas if you had a clitoris, m'dear, and it was cut off...well...never been there, but most reports are that you may well never climax again. I am not in any way trying to justify infant male circumcision. But I maintain it is quite different from "cutting off the clitoris".

[ghost_of_bluebiyou]

Zionist racism? What on earth does Israel have to do with this? Unless, you mean, "I hate Jews" Zionism. Zionism in definition is Israeli nationalism. Israel wasn't brought up once here, sir. If you want to criticize it correctly, you have to drop the codewords and say "Jew"-Zionism, contextually, makes zero sense here, and you yourself are the reason people never buy the "Not anti-Semitic, anti-Zionist" attitude-because you prove how close the two are.

Again, saying "Zionist racism" makes zero sense in this discussion. That fails to explain the original event, Muslim circumcision.



And with that you state that, the only way to prevent this sort of racism is Jewish and Muslim liquidation. Got it. Kill the Jews and Muslims, or force all babies away from their parents and let the religion die out through genocide that way. This is your final solution.



Wow. Uh...have you ever been to a circumcision? Rabbis sucking blood out of a child's penis? I've gone pretty religious bris'es. I haven't been happy about going. But that did NOT happen. Go back to reading David Duke. That is almost blood libel.

I'm glad that anti-circ people are going to ignore these two comments to justify their positions. Because, you know, these types of people aren't the type feared by Jews and Muslims. Sure. Just believe in people saying similar arguments in similar tone as these people and everything will work out alright in the end!

...What's so hard to understand about my argument about lack of trust and racism here? Do I need to give you more proof? Rabbis are pedophiles who are also committing illegal acts?

I have a circumcision. Guess what? I have uncircumcised friends who chafe just as easily. Guess what? I don't need lube when I masturbate. Some of my circumcised friends do.

Turns out, your personal experience MIGHT be you having individual problems feeling insecure about your dick. Or it could be related to circumcision. You were circumcised in a hospital setting and have a range of problems I don't have, and as a result deem people of a different religion pedophiles. I would suggest you see a psychiatrist, and consider foreskin restoration: It might not supply the sensitivity, but if you're right, it would stop the chafing and hardening of the skin, no? Oh, and I thought you were a partnered bi woman in a relationship with another woman. Someone's lying here.

And I'm sick and tired of this argument that I could somehow experience more sexual pleasure. I get sensory overload at times as is from a really good blowjob. I couldn't experience more sexual pleasure without collapsing and having a seizure or heart attack. So knock off this bull about how I'll never enjoy an orgasm. I can, I have, I will. Seriously, you should have MY penis, as you clearly don't know what you're missing by your logic!

Oh, and everyone should smoke crack before sex. Enhance your pleasure!

And take heroin.

Because an orgasm that isn't as good as someone else's for whatever reason SHOULD NOT EXIST.

Ummmm,
remember Blue (flame idea not poster - rule) remember Blue;
your reaction was... extremely emotional with no objective basis ... merely contradictive logic/denial, sometimes contradictive logic to your own thesis.
The whole Jewish/racist thing was a masterpiece of doubletalk... I'm reminded of OJ "look at the monkey, look at the monkey"
I am pretty sure you are Jamie, working an online argument to a hypothetical future legal argument, and perhaps justification for what happened to you.
Jamie, I'm sorry. I truly am. No child should be sexually mutilated at birth. Including and especially you.

[JUSTLUVIN]

Originally posted by The Young Pretender:
"Given the blood-curdling screaming of an infant during a circumcision, I see it a preventing cruelty against children"

For most babies who are circumcised there is not enough anesthesia to be effective if used at all. The sometimes smiling look after the process is actually neuralgic shock. There are studies that show it actually alters the brain patterns of boys who are cut at a young age.

I am cut but am in the process of restoring my foreskin and would not trade it for anything. Some may disagree but I don't condone circumcision at all.

[salemite43]

I personally do not agree with male circumcision (or female for that matter), for religious reasons. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims are all "people of the book." Meaning they all acknowledge the Abrahamic bases of their respective religions. So, it is not surprising circumcision is so widespread within their cultures. Religion is no rationale for mutilating an 8-day old baby.

Some medical research has presented compelling research that circumcision has some effect on the spread of AIDS. However, there are methods available to us that minimize the risk. Cutting off a child's foreskin to prevent STDs, AIDS, or conditions caused by a lack of proper hygiene is not to be likened to preventative vaccines. A shot is far less invasive than the irreversible results of circumcision.

Education is the key here. If all children were taught to maintain proper hygiene, and adults were made aware of the risks of unprotected sex, there would be no medical or scientific basis for circumcision. If we spent a little more time educating children, and less time indoctrinating them from birth about the wonders of their particular mythology, then circumcision would become an obscure historical footnote about the rather quaint and curious sexual practices of an earlier time.

How many of you folks here can say they've never ridden bareback?

If, for some reason, the ancient Greek and Roman preference for the foreskin were to come back into vogue, or a new religion were to arise that requires the male organ to be intact as a prerequisite for acceptance into it, then in some time thereafter, there would be a significant decrease in genital mutilation of male children.

[jamieknyc]

As I said about 200 posts ago, it would be as noncontroversial as pierced ears but for the fact that in Western countries, people associate circumcision with Jews, and in recent years with Moslems. Anti-circumcision fanatics don't care a damn about the infants. It's about racism.

[JUSTLUVIN]

As far as the AIDS study, the original one was flawed in that they had uncircumcised men go and have sex unprotected while the circumcised men wore condoms...sort of a no brainer. Also, it is being discovered that there are some healthy bacteria under the foreskin that help protect against disease.

Glands in the foreskin actually produce antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as lysozyme that is also found in tears and breast milk. specialized cells in the foreskin's mucousal lining secrete antibodies that defend against infection.

It goes along the lines of western medicines philosophy to "fight" disease. Unfortunately this "fight" as the case is in antibiotics, kills the good bacteria from the system causing more problems. I am all for cleanliness but pardon the pun, we sometimes throw the baby out with the bath water.

[salemite43]

Jamieknyc. I must respectfully disagree with you regarding to your comment equating "anti-circumcision fanatics" with racism. I'm not saying there aren't a number of people out there who are anti-Semetic, especially those benighted souls who still blame the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. However, I feel you may be painting with a rather broad brush. There are many people who no longer believe circumcision for other than religious reasons is really necessary. With proper education, not filtered through the religious or moral filters of their parents, all children or young adults can be made aware of the critical importance of good hygiene to avoid those ugly things such as genital odor, "peter cheese" and "smegma."

Mandatory sex education, allowing no exceptions or opt-outs from squeamish or puritanical parents, in an ideal world, would prevent STDs, UTIs, and AIDS through assiduous adherence to safe-sex practices.

Instead of staking out positions at the farthest ends of the ideological spectrum, we should be moving toward each other in order to reach a mutually satisfactory solution.

Peace!

[Velorex]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

[jem_is_bi]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

There is no way that they will see your point of view. They know they are right and you are evil for promoting your viewpoint. There is not much understanding that what is right for others has any moral merit. This thread is creepy for all the hatred that is infused in it.

[void()]

As I said about 200 posts ago, it would be as noncontroversial as pierced ears but for the fact that in Western countries, people associate circumcision with Jews, and in recent years with Moslems. Anti-circumcision fanatics don't care a damn about the infants. It's about racism.

So, you are suggesting that ideas are a race? This is what it sounds like you are saying to me.

"Ideas, like religion or political notions are races."

So, then are inanimate and non-sentient objects races as well? I would think cinder blocks would disprove of being so used, if so.

Please hm, comprehend, I am not attempting to attack you but rather the idea that ideas are races. This does not quite make sense to me. If I am ignorant of something in this case please do elucidate me.

To me Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhists, Atheist, are all members of the family of the human race. They all are human beings with different ideas about the divine, or lack of the divine. But, these ideas are thoughts, emotions, perceptions. They are inanimate and non-sentient objects we discuss, we use as reason to war, reason to love. They are not a living race as far as I am aware.

If so, when did this change? Who justified such a change? What gave them the authority (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-authority/) to change things around?

Apologies if this seems to be someone groping in the darkness, or "benighted", perhaps if we had standardized language and definitions communication would be more concise, effective. As it is the onus is on you to provide further context. I am merely asking for that. Are you saying ideas are a race? When did this happen?

Now, I could understand if I called you a zebra with an elephant trunk, you being offended and saying I uttered a racial slur at you. But I did not call you any such thing, merely presented it just now as an example. I won't call you any such thing either. It may offend duck billed platypuses and if they get offended, watch out, the beer vanishes as does the scotch and rum.

So far as I recall in this thread, I have not stood as an anti- anything fanatic. I do think there are pros and cons to both sides of the issue. I think folks ought to be free to weigh these for themselves and make their own choice. I think it would be a nice gesture to allow children a choice, though I can understand the weight of parental choice as well.

What really bothers me is now thinking of ideas as being a race unto themselves. Man, I better watch out ... some of my ideas get folks hurt. But then, I would not be responsible. See, my idea which took its own life, took its own choice to do whatever inflicted harm. Lock up my idea, it did it. That's kind of weird to ponder, although I guess if we can have straw men (http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ambiguity/straw-man/), anything is possible.

[pole_smoker]

As I said about 200 posts ago, it would be as noncontroversial as pierced ears but for the fact that in Western countries, people associate circumcision with Jews, and in recent years with Moslems. Anti-circumcision fanatics don't care a damn about the infants. It's about racism.

Being Jewish or Muslim is not a race. It's someone's personal religious choice. Hitler claimed that being Jewish was an actual 'race' so this means you agree with Adolph Hitler and all of the Nazis if you think that being Jewish or Islamic is a race, or that being against male and female genital mutilation is racist.

There are a lot of Jews and even Muslims who are against circumcision and do not practice it as they see it for what it is: Genital mutilation. In Europe most Jews do not mutilate the genitals of their infant children, it's not always done in Israel, and in North America many Jews are not choosing to mutilate their infant children's genitals.

[pole_smoker]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

Painfully mutilating someone's genitals without his or her consent does not compare to any of the things you listed. Circumcision is so painful that the infant boys or young boys go into shock from having it done. It also makes a man's penis ugly with gross scars.

The head of the penis just like a woman's clit was never meant to be permanently exposed, that's not how the penis was designed my nature. The head of the penis is mucus membrane, just like the inside of your mouth. The skin is very rich in nerves and sensitive, which is why it needs to be covered. If the foreskin is gone the body will make up for that. The head of the penis will start developing layers of skin over the head of the penis, this protects the mucus membrane and the nerve endings. However the unfortunate thing about this is those skin layers can't be retracted like the foreskin, so sensitivity to the head will be blocked at all times. Which aids in the sensitivity loss.

Studies have shown that the younger a circumcision is preformed in childhood, the more nerve endings that are taken and the more nerve damage that was done. They did a study on how circumcision effects sexual dysfunction in males and determined that those circumcised as infants had a much greater risk of sexual dysfunction and had more sensitivity loss, than those circumcised as adults. But overall circumcision did remove a significant amount of sensitivity and did increase the chances of ever getting a sexual dysfunction. Is it any wonder why lots of men in the United States who are cut pop Viagara and Cialis like candy? It's not just older men who do this either.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102


The analysis sample consisted of 1059 uncircumcised and 310 circumcised men. For the glans penis, circumcised men reported decreased sexual pleasure and lower orgasm intensity. They also stated more effort was required to achieve orgasm, and a higher percentage of them experienced unusual sensations (burning, prickling, itching, or tingling and numbness of the glans penis). For the penile shaft a higher percentage of circumcised men described discomfort and pain, numbness and unusual sensations. In comparison to men circumcised before puberty, men circumcised during adolescence or later indicated less sexual pleasure at the glans penis, and a higher percentage of them reported discomfort or pain and unusual sensations at the penile shaft.

[pole_smoker]

When a baby boy's normal, healthy penis is circumcised, this is what is lost - forever:


1 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The foreskin (http://www.circumstitions.com/Glossary.html#foreskin), which comprises up to 50% (sometimes more) of the mobile skin system of the penis.

This highly specialized tissue normally covers the glans and protects it from abrasion, drying, callousing (keratinisation), and contaminants of all kinds. The effect of glans keratinisation produces painful intercourse in both women and men who have partners who are circumcised.
2 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The frenar band (http://www.circumstitions.com/Glossary.html#ridgedband) of soft ridges - the primary erogenous zone of the male body. Loss of this delicate belt of densely innervated, sexually responsive tissue reduces the fine-tuning of male sexual response.
3 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The foreskin's "gliding action" - the hallmark mechanical feature of the intact penis. This non-abrasive gliding of the penis in and out of itself within the vagina facilitates smooth, comfortable, pleasurable intercourse for both partners. Without this gliding, sealing action, the shaft of the circumcised penis functions as a leaky piston, drawing vaginal lubricants out into the drying air and often making artificial lubricants essential for comfortable intercourse.
4 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). Thousands of coiled fine-touch mechanoreceptors called Meissner's corpuscles, the most important sensory component of the foreskin, encapsulated Vater-Pacinian cells, Merkel's cells, nociceptors, and branches of the dorsal nerve and perineal nerve. Altogether, between 10,000 and 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings of several types, which can feel slight motion and stretch, subtle changes in temperature, and fine gradations in texture, are lost.
5 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The frenulum (http://www.circumstitions.com/Glossary.html#frenulum), the highly erogenous web-like tethering structure on the underside of the glans; frequently amputated along with the foreskin, which destroys its function and potential for pleasure.
6. Approximately half of the temperature-sensitive smooth muscle sheath called the dartos fascia (http://www.circumstitions.com/Glossary.html#dartos).
7. The immunological defense system (http://www.circumstitions.com/References.html#Fleiss2) of the soft mucosa. This produces both plasma cells that secrete immunoglobulin antibodies and antibacterial and antiviral proteins such as the pathogen-killing enzyme lysozyme.
8. Estrogen receptors - the purpose of which is not yet fully understood and needs further study.
9 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The apocrine glands of the inner foreskin, which produce pheromones - nature's powerful, silent, invisible behavioral signals to potential sexual partners. The effect of their absence on human sexuality has never been studied.
10. Specialized epithelial Langerhans cells, a first line component of the body's immune system in a whole penis.
11. The pink to red to dark purple natural coloration of the glans (http://www.circumstitions.com/Glossary.html#glans). The connective tissue which protectively fuses the foreskin and glans together while the penis develops is ripped apart during circumcision, wounding the glans and the foreskin remnant, leaving them raw and subject to infection, scarring, pitting, shrinkage, and eventual discoloration.
12 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). Some of the penis length and penis circumference because its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is now missing, making the circumcised penis truncated and thinner than a full-sized penis.
13 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). Several feet of blood vessels, including the frenular artery and branches of the dorsal artery. The loss of this rich vascularization interrupts normal blood flow to the shaft and glans of the penis, damaging the natural function of the penis and altering its development. [The superior dorsal artery is invariably swollen in the erect circumcised penis, compared to the intact.]
14 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). The penis: every year some boys lose their entire penises (http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html#jjj) from circumcision accidents and infections. They are then "sexually reassigned" by castration and "transgender surgery," and expected to live their lives as "females."
15. Life: every year some boys lose their lives (http://www.circumstitions.com/Complic.html#death) from the complications of circumcision - the exact number is unknown, since these deaths are usually attributed to their secondary causes, infection or bleeding.
16. Bonding: the extreme pain (http://www.circumstitions.com/Pain.html) of circumcision (or the effects of anaesthesia) disrupt the infant's bonding (http://www.circumstitions.com/Nursing.html) with his mother, with unknown effects on his future psychological and psychosocial development.
17 (http://www.circumstitions.com/Lost.html#sex). Intimacy: the removal of a large area of mucous membrane, the foreskin, and the hardening of another, the glans, reduces the potential for intimacy conferred by these tissues - as it is conferred by highly comparable structures, the lips.
18.

Length and Circumference
Circumcision removes some of the length and girth of the penis - its double-layered wrapping of loose and usually overhanging foreskin is removed. A circumcised penis is truncated and thinner than it would have been if left intact.

[Annika L]

Allow me to officially dub this as The Accursed Thread.

I would plead with Drew to close it, but I think he finds it too useful for spotting and deleting trolls. I suppose it's like any other source of Evil...if you shut it down, another would just spring up. Funny old Universe.

[Gearbox]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin!:yikes2: It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvGnro4Cgw
C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!;):rolleyes:

[Annika L]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin!:yikes2: It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvGnro4Cgw
C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!;):rolleyes:

LOL, Fran as a source of evil is indeed laughable! I suppose the question of how someone so angelic (*huge smile*) could start a thread that is a source of evil will launch yet another one of those inevitable theological debates.

[JUSTLUVIN]

If you can cut a child's hair, pierce their ear, clip their nails, get a wart removed, give them inoculations, the list goes on and on........ see my point. You are passing judgement on others about your own beliefs. Kinda hypocritical in my opinion, on a site dedicated to open mindedness. Their have been countless studies done, on both views, and the simple fact is, at the end of the studies you have never heard anyone say, "He became an murderer from the trauma he suffered from circumcision at 15 months old." ROFL

One cannot compare circumcision to cutting nails, hair or earrings. And circumcision has been proven to alter the brain wave patterns of infants. MRI studies have been done that prove that significant trauma was doen to a newborn's brain during this procedure that permanently altered the brain. As adult men we like to claim we were not harmed but you have no reference point to go from since this was done at an early age.

Although I have never really talked about it. When I was a baby, I was circumcised. Not for religious reasons but back in the 50's it was the thing to do. My dad was not circumcised. I do not remember the excat event but I DO remember the pain I went through before I was out of diapers. Back then cloth diapers were used and I do remember using my knees as a cushion when my mom would pick me up due to the pain. I had to take baths in plain water cause the tip of my penis was so inflamed and irritated from the soap, well it was just awful.

In my late 40's the sensitivity in my glans had all but disappeared. I blamed it on age. I cut basically thump it with my fingers and feel nothing hardly at all. I since started restoring and my glans started to peel its old callous layer of dead skin and my glans started to look bright red and glossy again, after 40 something years. But the BIGGEST thing was that my penis started getting sensations it had not had in some 20 years. I am really understanding more and more the purpose of the foreskin.

I am not saying anything about religious purposes but I can say from my perspective that I was damaged.

The study can be found here: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html

[darkeyes]

Well Annika, me l8 Gran used to call me devil's child and devil's spawn b4 she ended up bossin' downstairs and doin' ole Nick out of job.. so ya nev kno...;) Been called worse.... used 2 wear names like that as medals.. spesh outa the ole witch:tongue:...

[darkeyes]

OMG Darkeyes is the root of all evil. I bet her laptop is made out of Human skin....foreskin!:yikes2: It all makes sense now, that cunning vixen!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLvGnro4Cgw
C'mon! Lets hunt that Frannystein down! I'll take the local picnick area....I betcha anything she'll be there!;):rolleyes:
Nope.. just placcie like evry1 elses.... but am fond of picnicspots... many nice times in picnic spots... involving human skin.. an stuff.... and boys?? In days wen I wos in2 guys.. MORE FUN WOS HAD AT PICNIC SPOTS WIV GUYS WHO HAD 4SKINS THAN DIDNT!!... gut any who wants to have it lopped off can dop so.. just dont b so evil as 2 decide it for ur children b4 they r old enuff to walk... or talk...

[Annika L]

Well Annika, me l8 Gran used to call me devil's child and devil's spawn b4 she ended up bossin' downstairs and doin' ole Nick out of job.. so ya nev kno...;) Been called worse.... used 2 wear names like that as medals.. spesh outa the ole witch:tongue:...

Source of evil and spawn of evil are quite two different things, dear! And be careful what you say about old Witches around me *wink*.

[darkeyes]

Source of evil and spawn of evil are quite two different things, dear! And be careful what you say about old Witches around me *wink*.;):love87: Some witches wer luffly, Annika.... not all wer like me gran tf... an' not all r for that matta...:tongue:

[pole_smoker]

One cannot compare circumcision to cutting nails, hair or earrings. And circumcision has been proven to alter the brain wave patterns of infants. MRI studies have been done that prove that significant trauma was doen to a newborn's brain during this procedure that permanently altered the brain. As adult men we like to claim we were not harmed but you have no reference point to go from since this was done at an early age.

Although I have never really talked about it. When I was a baby, I was circumcised. Not for religious reasons but back in the 50's it was the thing to do. My dad was not circumcised. I do not remember the excat event but I DO remember the pain I went through before I was out of diapers. Back then cloth diapers were used and I do remember using my knees as a cushion when my mom would pick me up due to the pain. I had to take baths in plain water cause the tip of my penis was so inflamed and irritated from the soap, well it was just awful.

In my late 40's the sensitivity in my glans had all but disappeared. I blamed it on age. I cut basically thump it with my fingers and feel nothing hardly at all. I since started restoring and my glans started to peel its old callous layer of dead skin and my glans started to look bright red and glossy again, after 40 something years. But the BIGGEST thing was that my penis started getting sensations it had not had in some 20 years. I am really understanding more and more the purpose of the foreskin.

I am not saying anything about religious purposes but I can say from my perspective that I was damaged.

The study can be found here: http://www.drmomma.org/2009/10/mri-studies-brain-permanently-altered.html
Well said. Circumcision of the penis is a genital mutilation.

A penis that's intact with a foreskin that's never been mutilated or 'cut' is more sensitive, and it gives the man and his female, and male sexual partners more sexual pleasure than if he's mutilated or cut.

Some men have done what's called 'foreskin restoration' it does not give them an actual foreskin with all of the unmutilated nerve endings; but it does cover the head, make the penis less dry, and does increase some sexual sensitivity and pleasure that's been lost.

[JUSTLUVIN]

Well said. Circumcision of the penis is a genital mutilation.

A penis that's intact with a foreskin that's never been mutilated or 'cut' is more sensitive, and it gives the man and his female, and male sexual partners more sexual pleasure than if he's mutilated or cut.

Some men have done what's called 'foreskin restoration' it does not give them an actual foreskin with all of the unmutilated nerve endings; but it does cover the head, make the penis less dry, and does increase some sexual sensitivity and pleasure that's been lost.

So true pole_smoker. Unfortunately I lost the thousands of nerve endings in the foreskin that was cut off that I will never be able to experience, Only a truly uncut man will know. However, I am quite surprised that since my glans has been covered 24/ 7. I can actually feel it again. And what's more, I can actually just touch my glans and get an erection. Back some 5 years ago, it took more than that to get me hard. Plus the color has changed and looks healthy again.

I have been on doctors visits and they assumed I was intact and gave me the lectures on cleanliness. I never told them hehe.

[elian]

Yes, it does happen - yes, it's sort of sad. Just like baptism, I would much rather that a child be given a chance to make the decision on their own when they are in their late teens and can start to understand some of the concepts they are being asked to swear to.

Would I fault a parent for doing so? I don't fault MY parents for doing so, even though I sometimes wonder what it might be like to be uncut. I am not a parent myself so I am not going to speak for other parents.

At least I am in good company here in the US..besides, it gives us something to lust after - finding that guy with the uncut penis..

I -have- seen a few examples of honest mutilation (more so than what some of you think of as "mutilation") - where the surgery goes wrong, and in that case I think I would be very unhappy with the doctor.

I mean as late as the 1950's I think they were still pushing this surgery on moral grounds..

As far as the morality of it all, if you say no, you will probably get accused of promoting immorality. Yes sometimes I really do get tired of a sex laden culture. I am sorry, in my mind there is no 14 year old girl who needs to wear a pair of cut off petite denim shorts that have the word JU-ICY stenciled across the butt-cheeks in glitter.

The cultural epoch of US society, the thing that unites us more than anything else is apparently Bruno Mars singing "Locked out of Heaeven" during the superbowl half time show with thousands of pre-pubecent teens waving their cell phones in the air like cigarette lighters and bopping along to the music.

I don't necessarily think that there is anything wrong with sex or feeling pleasure but those are very powerful feelings and emotions that young people may not fully understand the implications of.

Gawd, now I -know- I've become a grumpy old man...

-E

[pole_smoker]

Yes, it does happen - yes, it's sort of sad. Just like baptism, I would much rather that a child be given a chance to make the decision on their own when they are in their late teens and can start to understand some of the concepts they are being asked to swear to.

Would I fault a parent for doing so? I don't fault MY parents for doing so, even though I sometimes wonder what it might be like to be uncut. I am not a parent myself so I am not going to speak for other parents.

At least I am in good company here in the US..besides, it gives us something to lust after - finding that guy with the uncut penis..

I -have- seen a few examples of honest mutilation (more so than what some of you think of as "mutilation" - where the surgery goes wrong, and in that case I think I would be very unhappy with the doctor.

I mean as late as the 1950's I think they were still pushing this surgery on moral grounds..

As far as the morality of it all, yes sometimes I really do get tired of a sex laden culture. I am sorry, in my mind there is no 14 year old girl who needs to wear a pair of cut off petite denim shorts that have the word JU-ICY stenciled across the butt-cheeks in glitter.

The cultural epoch of US society, the thing that unites us more than anything else is apparently Bruno Mars singing "Locked out of Heaeven" during the superbowl half time show with thousands of pre-pubecent teens waving their cell phones like cigarette lighters and bopping along to the music.

Gawd, now I -know- I've become a grumpy old man...
-E

All circumcisions preformed on infants or young boys are mutilations as they cannot consent to it, or are pressured because of silly religious rituals that support genital mutilation. The same goes for female 'circumcision'.

Eventually infant male and female genital mutilation will become illegal worldwide, or will simply die off as a practice.

I'm not cut and I have met a lot of men who are cut who are angry or jealous that they were not given the choice, and had they been given a choice they would have kept their genitals intact with a foreskin. But it's happening to less and less boys in the United States, and worldwide most men are not cut/mutilated, and they and their sexual partners have no consequences from this.

Cut men who obsess over foreskin, or who want me sexually mainly because I'm intact are the type I avoid.

[elian]

I have met a lot of men who are cut who are angry or jealous that they were not given the choice, and had they been given a choice they would have kept their genitals intact with a foreskin. But it's happening to less and less boys in the United States, and worldwide most men are not cut/mutilated, and they and their sexual partners have no consequences from this.

Yes, well there was a time I was jealous or angry over the fact that I am cut, but I got over it - just like the million other things in my life I got angry or jealous over. If the practice is happening less and less in the US you won't hear me complain.

I do have to wonder if the boys who ARE cut will feel more of a disparity when they see that more and more people are not.

I'm not a big fan of female circumcision either..

I look at it this way, I didn't ask to be born male, I didn't ask to be born white, or bisexual, being circumsized is just one more adversity to face in life and it really isn't a big one. I don't always think of adversity as a bad thing..if there was never any disagreement or contrast then life would be boring, there would no reason to change and grow.