Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas

[æonpax]

Visitors to a public park in Portland, Texas were terrified on Saturday to find two teenage girls who had been shot in the head, according to MSNBC.

Nineteen-year-old Mollie Judith Olgin was found dead on the scene and 18-year-old Mary Christine Chapa was rushed to the hospital. Chapa was in serious but stable condition on Sunday. The two young women had been in a relationship for five months.

Police in Portland have not been able to identify a suspect and do not know if the young couple’s sexuality motivated the crime.“That’s always something that we’re looking for, but as of this point, we have not been able to establish that that had anything to do with the attack,” Portland Police Chief Randy Wright said.

He added that the crime did not appear to be “just a random attack.” - http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/25/teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-the-head-in-texas/
`
`
There are just not enough facts available right now in order to form an intelligent opinion on this incident. However, I can say that violence against Gays (LGBT) has coincidentally been on the rise since all the anti-gay rhetoric has been spewing from the political right.
`
`
http://i.imgur.com/uo2RX.jpg

[FinkDoodle]

I'm confused. You state that no details are in . . the report mentions that it's unknown if their sexual preference had anything to do with their murder, yet you're still trying to shoehorn this into the "everybody should hate gays" crap that's been going on.

May I respectfully ask that the actual facts in this incident should be reported before the soapbox comes out? Two young women are dead. Have a little respect before you attempt to use them to support your cause.

[Long Duck Dong]

ok based around what I can find on the net....

large calibre shell casing, witness heard two shots before midnight, police find one shell casing, area is overgrown, no suspects and no weapon, police say there is likelihood of a 3rd party involved....... you have two females in a overgrown area at night, in the dark.........

before I would say LGBT hate crime, I would rule out accidental shooting ( illegal hunting / poaching ) for a start.....

kinda reminds me of the issue at a bar in NZ recently with two lesbians * kicked out * of a bar and how they were discriminated against by the bar and how they were going to the human rights commission etc etc... facebook and a few other sites exploded with nasty remarks about the bar and the doorman and their treatment of the LGBT etc etc.....then the bar manager showed the CCTV footage to a reporter, that proved the lesbians were lying about what happened...... and there was dead silence in the sites.... no apologise to the bar staff or the bar manager from the lesbians.... just dead silence....

how about we wait for the facts in this case before the usual * LGBT hate crime etc * cries start up... and the LGBT end up looking bad yet again......

[darkeyes]

I'm confused. You state that no details are in . . the report mentions that it's unknown if their sexual preference had anything to do with their murder, yet you're still trying to shoehorn this into the "everybody should hate gays" crap that's been going on.

May I respectfully ask that the actual facts in this incident should be reported before the soapbox comes out? Two young women are dead. Have a little respect before you attempt to use them to support your cause.
She reported a murder to us.. she said there were too few facts to make an intelligent opinion... and she said coincidentally there is arise in anti lgbt crime.. that isn't trying to shoe horn anything in to anything..

Violent crime against the lgbt is on the increase here too.. this seems odd at face value, when there is an increase in support, compassion, acceptance and tolerance towards us and violent crime is on a bit of a downward spiral.. but it isn't really... when the intolerant are most under threat they do react more violently and aggressively and my theory is that this is why it occurs.. I don't know about texas except that it isn't incredibly lgbt friendly, but nationally there is a move towards greater acceptance of gay, bi and transgendered people.. whether that has any bearing on an already intolerant state I have no idea but it is part of the union and there is a lot going on nationally both pro and anti lgbt..

..and of course it might just be they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and sexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.. I think Joan is bright enough to know that and she has said so in effect.. so the high horse wasn't needed... I suggest you unsaddle and like the rest of us, wait and until there is more info before u have a go at someone for saying what she quite clearly didn't say...

[falcondfw]

She reported a murder to us.. she said there were too few facts to make an intelligent opinion... and she said coincidentally there is arise in anti lgbt crime.. that isn't trying to shoe horn anything in to anything..

Violent crime against the lgbt is on the increase here too.. this seems odd at face value, when there is an increase in support, compassion, acceptance and tolerance towards us and violent crime is on a bit of a downward spiral.. but it isn't really... when the intolerant are most under threat they do react more violently and aggressively and my theory is that this is why it occurs.. I don't know about texas except that it isn't incredibly lgbt friendly, but nationally there is a move towards greater acceptance of gay, bi and transgendered people.. whether that has any bearing on an already intolerant state I have no idea but it is part of the union and there is a lot going on nationally both pro and anti lgbt..

..and of course it might just be they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and sexuality has nothing whatsoever to do with it.. I think Joan is bright enough to know that and she has said so in effect.. so the high horse wasn't needed... I suggest you unsaddle and like the rest of us, wait and until there is more info before u have a go at someone for saying what she quite clearly didn't say...

She didn't say it fran, but she implied it. And with no facts to back it up. I can say the moon is made of green cheese if I want with no facts to back it up.

If people are going to claim LGBT crime is on the rise in an area, back it up. Cities and towns publish police statistics every week in the newspaper and probably on their web sites.

And if you (general you, not you specifically fran) lean a certain way politically, that is great, but have more class than to take a tragedy like this and spin it for your own political agenda (specifically referring to the comment about the rise of the political right comment). I lean to the right politically (ok, I almost bend over to the right), but that does not mean I am going to go out to a park and shoot 2 teenage lesbians.

[darkeyes]

She didn't say it fran, but she implied it. And with no facts to back it up. I can say the moon is made of green cheese if I want with no facts to back it up.

If people are going to claim LGBT crime is on the rise in an area, back it up. Cities and towns publish police statistics every week in the newspaper and probably on their web sites.

And if you (general you, not you specifically fran) lean a certain way politically, that is great, but have more class than to take a tragedy like this and spin it for your own political agenda (specifically referring to the comment about the rise of the political right comment). I lean to the right politically (ok, I almost bend over to the right), but that does not mean I am going to go out to a park and shoot 2 teenage lesbians.
Very touchy today aren't we Falcon? Neither of us spun it to make it what it may not be.. we just don't know enough to say... Joan's comment and my own were perfectly fair observations to make. And if the Texas polis have an ounce of integrity it is an angle they will be looking at too.. just as long as they don't ignore other explanations...

We can disagree on the political point u make that's ok.. but it isn't me that's saying anti lgbt crime is on the increase in the UK..http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/homophobia-exacts-a-chilling-price-as-hate-crimes-climb-2374674.html but are u honestly trying to tell me that the current anti lgbt views, statements and policies of many right wing American politicians particularly those of the religious right has no bearing on hate crime in the US? And in the fight against anti lgbt rhetoric and prejudice, can anyone afford to have class?

[DuckiesDarling]

I've been checking out some of the stories about this and right off the top of my head I can think of different scenarios that have nothing to do with the sexuality of these two people. The major one coming to mind is drugs. It's a tragedy but just trying to sensationalize it as a LGBT tragedy is indeed "cashing in". Every day in this world someone is the victim of a crime, the sexuality of the person does not make the crime any more or less horrific. So I want to wait before I lament the poor lesbian couple and would rather have the facts in the case and know exactly who did the shooting if not why. But I'd be willing to lay odds it will come down to someone being where they shouldn't have been for an act they shouldn't have been engaging in.

[tenni]

When has the radical right not been spewing hatred towards same sex activity and relationships? If anything has not there been positive steps taken politically recently?

When has Texas not been seen as radical extremists with the use of guns to deal with things people do not like? The story falls under "typical" imo.

Very sad.

[æonpax]

1) I'm confused. You state that no details are in . . the report mentions that it's unknown if their sexual preference had anything to do with their murder, yet you're still trying to shoehorn this into the "everybody should hate gays" crap that's been going on.

2) May I respectfully ask that the actual facts in this incident should be reported before the soapbox comes out? Two young women are dead. Have a little respect before you attempt to use them to support your cause.

Reading and comprehension are fundamental my friend.

1) Huh? Yes. You are confused.
2) May I respectfully submit you read the article I linked to before coming to an erroneous conclusion.

Perhaps I should explain the article to you. It did not state it was a crime against gays although the headline alluded to it by mentioning the fact that they were lesbian. Pretty straightforward if you ask me.

I cannot accurately say it was a "hate" crime becuase I don't have anymore facts than what the article stated. However, it is my "opinion" that based on a plethora that such crimes are on the rise and are seemingly juxtaposed to the rise in violence against gays by the right. It is entirely plausible this was a hate crime.

Thanks.

[darkeyes]

I've been checking out some of the stories about this and right off the top of my head I can think of different scenarios that have nothing to do with the sexuality of these two people. The major one coming to mind is drugs. It's a tragedy but just trying to sensationalize it as a LGBT tragedy is indeed "cashing in". Every day in this world someone is the victim of a crime, the sexuality of the person does not make the crime any more or less horrific. So I want to wait before I lament the poor lesbian couple and would rather have the facts in the case and know exactly who did the shooting if not why. But I'd be willing to lay odds it will come down to someone being where they shouldn't have been for an act they shouldn't have been engaging in.
Personally I lament them no matter the circumstances of their death as I do for any human being shorn of life so cruelly,, and who is cashing in? Not me; not Joan... we have both aid the same thing.. lets find out why because we don't yet know.. and if I may be so bold.. we haven't speculated why.. you have, darlin' darin'.. as best I can tell u are dismissing that it will proven be a hate crime... and are prepared to lay odds on it... and that's as bad as claiming it is when no one yet has a clue..

Asking questions is one thing... speculation is quite another..

[DuckiesDarling]

Personally I lament them no matter the circumstances of their death as I do for any human being shorn of life so cruelly,, and who is cashing in? Not me; not Joan... we have both aid the same thing.. lets find out why because we don't yet know.. and if I may be so bold.. we haven't speculated why.. you have, darlin' darin'.. as best I can tell u are dismissing that it will proven be a hate crime... and are prepared to lay odds on it... and that's as bad as claiming it is when no one yet has a clue..

Asking questions is one thing... speculation is quite another..

I happily posted that I speculated, Fran. I didn't try to say something and then say I didn't say it when called on it... :)

[æonpax]

ok based around what I can find on the net....

large calibre shell casing, witness heard two shots before midnight, police find one shell casing, area is overgrown, no suspects and no weapon, police say there is likelihood of a 3rd party involved....... you have two females in a overgrown area at night, in the dark.........

before I would say LGBT hate crime, I would rule out accidental shooting ( illegal hunting / poaching ) for a start.....

kinda reminds me of the issue at a bar in NZ recently with two lesbians * kicked out * of a bar and how they were discriminated against by the bar and how they were going to the human rights commission etc etc... facebook and a few other sites exploded with nasty remarks about the bar and the doorman and their treatment of the LGBT etc etc.....then the bar manager showed the CCTV footage to a reporter, that proved the lesbians were lying about what happened...... and there was dead silence in the sites.... no apologise to the bar staff or the bar manager from the lesbians.... just dead silence....

how about we wait for the facts in this case before the usual * LGBT hate crime etc * cries start up... and the LGBT end up looking bad yet again......

Ah...up to your old tricks again I see. Please point out where either the article or I stated it was a "hate crime?" Those are YOUR words my friend, NOT mine.

The words "Lesbian Teens" are being used by many media sources reporting this, to wit;

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/25/12402620-teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-texas-park?lite
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/06/teenage-lesbian-couple-shot-in-texas-park.html
http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2012/06/teenage-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-texas-park-one-fatally-wounded/


An educated person might conclude this was a hate crime, just based on the headline. But I said;

There are just not enough facts available right now in order to form an intelligent opinion on this incident.


What does my statement indicate to you? Someone rushing to a conclusion?

Just when I thought it was over........

[æonpax]

She didn't say it fran, but she implied it. And with no facts to back it up. I can say the moon is made of green cheese if I want with no facts to back it up.

If people are going to claim LGBT crime is on the rise in an area, back it up. Cities and towns publish police statistics every week in the newspaper and probably on their web sites.

And if you (general you, not you specifically fran) lean a certain way politically, that is great, but have more class than to take a tragedy like this and spin it for your own political agenda (specifically referring to the comment about the rise of the political right comment). I lean to the right politically (ok, I almost bend over to the right), but that does not mean I am going to go out to a park and shoot 2 teenage lesbians.

Excuse poindexter me but I gave my opinion...see word: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion and unless I miss my guess, this forum is all about voicing opinions.

I will gladly back up my assertion that crime against the LGBT is not only UP but directly related to the religious conservative mindset in politics. But for now, I'm sorry, you'll have to wait.

If opinions get you all excited to a point where I offend your political leanings...I have two choices for you a) tough or b) live with it.

At any rate...we'll see where this case goes when more facts are out.

[Long Duck Dong]

aeon,....... back up a sec or two......

much of the comments on the other sites I read, in order to see if I could find more info, were full of remarks about texas gay bashing, gun toting rednecks and other BS comments..... so I was making the general remark about how we should not assume its a hate crime until proven...

if you want to read into my post, something that I did not say, then try and call me out over it... then I would suggest that working in the media is the right job for you, as the media have a habit of twisting things, only having some of the facts and portraying something incorrectly... and making right asses of themselves when they get it wrong

[æonpax]

Personally I lament them no matter the circumstances of their death as I do for any human being shorn of life so cruelly,, and who is cashing in? Not me; not Joan... we have both aid the same thing.. lets find out why because we don't yet know.. and if I may be so bold.. we haven't speculated why.. you have, darlin' darin'.. as best I can tell u are dismissing that it will proven be a hate crime... and are prepared to lay odds on it... and that's as bad as claiming it is when no one yet has a clue..

Asking questions is one thing... speculation is quite another..

`
Fran,

I took this news article from another forum where discussion on it is already heated up...as it should be sometimes. Most people are assuming it's a hate crime, but not me...not yet. I carefully phrased how I posted this, for one of my more esoteric reasons. One of the reasons is painfully obvious, you will note people are accusing me of things I did not say. It follows a very predictable pattern amongst some people here.

[æonpax]

aeon,....... back up a sec or two......

much of the comments on the other sites I read, in order to see if I could find more info, were full of remarks about texas gay bashing, gun toting rednecks and other BS comments..... so I was making the general remark about how we should not assume its a hate crime until proven...

if you want to read into my post, something that I did not say, then try and call me out over it... then I would suggest that working in the media is the right job for you, as the media have a habit of twisting things, only having some of the facts and portraying something incorrectly... and making right asses of themselves when they get it wrong
`

I stand....corrected. My apologies.

[darkeyes]

I happily posted that I speculated, Fran. I didn't try to say something and then say I didn't say it when called on it... :)
Can be that that the old warmonger was right and that indeed we are two peoples separated by a common language? Just to whom do u refer who has denied they said something they did? Not me... not Joan... did she or I imply anything as claimed? Not from where I'm sitting... but maybe American English is even more different from our own humble tongue than I hitherto thought..:eek2:

[darkeyes]

`
Fran,

I took this news article from another forum where discussion on it is already heated up...as it should be sometimes. Most people are assuming it's a hate crime, but not me...not yet. I carefully phrased how I posted this, for one of my more esoteric reasons. One of the reasons is painfully obvious, you will note people are accusing me of things I did not say. It follows a very predictable pattern amongst some people here.
Is life me darlin'.. life...just life as we know it....:)

[ErosUrge]

Yes, who knows until more information is available. But it seems to me (mere speculation) that it could be one of those insanely jealous situations where one of these women was perhaps once involved with killer in the past and it was his way of settling the matter because of the rejection; sick! And there is a possibility that it might have been a jealous ex-female lover, but rarely is that ever the case. Anyhow, it happened the way it happened and for the reasons it happened and therein is the truth until a thorough investigation is completed (if there is one).
Though I don't know as I've not looked into it, I would not doubt that crimes against LGBT are on the rise since as of late, there is a rise in awareness of same sex couples being allowed to marry and having gained more rights in certain states. In this state there is and has always been a level of intolerance towards same sex interest though for me personally, I have not encountered such moments in recent years. That doesn't mean it isn't so, I'm just saying that fortunately for me it hasn't been the case. And I am pretty much in the open about my sexuality to most people; though not all.
I would hope that we would be more communicative and open to possibilities and not engaging in attacking one another. This is a very tragic matter and hopefully the truth of it will be revealed. In my opinion, it is definitely related to the sexuality of the two but maybe more accurately an insane jealousy which knows no gender or orientation....

[falcondfw]

Tenni,
Just because people speak out against LGBT stuff does not mean they are going to pick up a shotgun and take out two lesbians. Are there nutballs that will? yes. Just like there are nutballs that go around to Occupy Wall Street protests raping girls. There are nutballs on both sides and to paint everyone on one side or the other with the nutball brush is disingenuous and political spin.

And Tenni, if you believe what you said in your last sentence - "When has Texas not been seen as radical extremists with the use of guns to deal with things people do not like? The story falls under "typical" imo.". Then you need to get out of the movie theater and start thinking with your brain instead of your eyes. That is one of the most pathetically bigoted, politically charged statements I have heard in a long time.

Joan and Fran,
Touchy, no. She made the inference, not me. This is the kind of BS on both sides of the political debate that serves no one. It is all political spin and it is not right. 1. because two young women are dead and noone, except the shooter, knows the real reason 2. because, as I said above, only a few fringe nutballs on either side of the political spectrum would use their political or religious beliefs to justify a crime.

And if people acted with class, on both sides, we wouldn't have the hate speech and spin from either side.

Fran, "Asking questions is one thing... speculation is quite another..". You are correct fran. And Joan is speculating by inferring it is an LGBT hate crime.

Joan, "What does my statement indicate to you?". Well, this statement " I can say that violence against Gays (LGBT) has coincidentally been on the rise since all the anti-gay rhetoric has been spewing from the political right." in combination with the article indicates you think it is an LGBT hate crime committed by some "right-wing" nutballs.

And Joan, the name calling is not necessary, is beneath you, and only serves to weaken your argument. I debated the ideas and positions you stated. I did not insult you or your intelligence. If you can't state and back up your points without name calling ... See posting rule #2, if in doubt.

[FinkDoodle]

"I cannot accurately say it was a "hate" crime becuase I don't have anymore facts than what the article stated. However, it is my "opinion" that based on a plethora that such crimes are on the rise and are seemingly juxtaposed to the rise in violence against gays by the right. It is entirely plausible this was a hate crime."

In other words, you've made up your mind that this is the case, based on absolutely nothing. I think that's called "making it up."

You activists . . you just love corpses. They can't refute anything you decide to make them say since they're no longer human beings . . they're just ammunition for your agenda.

Classy . .

[darkeyes]

I begin to wonder why we have language.. so few seem to be able to comprehend it...:(

[tenni]

It may be from your perspective bigotted Falcon
That is your states reputation in Canada and the opinion of a Canadian friend of mine who moved to Texas. Our societies are quite different. Same sex marriage has been legal in Canada for seven years. We have no abortion laws. We have strict gun laws. We just have different values than your state. So what happened is very sad but not unexpected.

[elian]

So let me speculate too that a teenage boy may have been in love with one of them and jealous - perhaps he shot them in a hormonal fit? Not exactly a hate crime, it's murder, or assault, but jealousy happens all of the time. I guess we'll have to keep an eye on the story to see when they uncover more facts.. It's a hard lesson to learn.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOE I mean, I feel a little foolish now, marching for Trayvon Martin after more evidence appeared - but I just wanted for all people to have a voice..it was great to think of the majority class squirming in their seats at home watching on TV as a group of people from a section of town most people would probably forget march down the hill to the courthouse and demand "justice". I already knew before the march it was a matter of two very similar people meeting each other in real space - they both had the same attitude problem and they both met their match..kind of a sad situation for everyone involved..it didn't HAVE to be that way - but that is the way it turned out.

[The Black Knights]

So let me speculate too that a teenage boy may have been in love with one of them and jealous - perhaps he shot them in a hormonal fit? Not exactly a hate crime, it's murder, or assault, but jealousy happens all of the time. I guess we'll have to keep an eye on the story to see when they uncover more facts.. It's a hard lesson to learn.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oSJdSL8YOE

You make a good point. We need to wait for the investigation into this tragedy is done. I would not be surprised if this was a hate crime, but I also would not be surprised if it is proven to be a case of wrong place, wrong time. This could have been a Black (or Asian or White) male/female couple, or two men or a entire family unit that was attacked and/or killed here. We, the public, needs to realize that the media's job is to report stories. They are NOT above sensationalism to be the lead news organization on a story, especially at the national level. Who these ladies are is why this is a national story, without all the facts. Same with the Trayvon Martin case, different spin, same result. Everyone calm down. Wait for the truth to come out....eventually.

[FinkDoodle]

Plus the fact that, no matter what happened, it's nobody's business but theirs and their respective families . . .

[elian]

It occurs to me that rather than debate, the most important thing is to feel compassion for the loss.

[Annika L]

Plus the fact that, no matter what happened, it's nobody's business but theirs and their respective families . . .

Seriously? Two people dead, and it's nobody else's business but theirs and their families? Criminy, what do we pay police detectives for, I wonder? I mean, there's a killer on the streets (unless it was an extremely clever double suicide), but hey, it's not really anyone else's business, right?

In general, just to throw my two cents in as a reader of the thread (and I'm sure I'll be seen simply jumping in on the activist side, or maybe the women's side if there is one in this case), but all I saw was Joan *entertaining the possibility* that this could be a hate crime, given the circumstantial evidence...not inferring that it actually was, or claiming it was and then denying the claim.

Such rancor in this thread, sheesh. Feels a lot more to me like highschool pettiness than a discussion of anything; more to do with who dislikes whom than with who said what.

I eagerly await being told what I just said.

[falcondfw]

It may be from your perspective bigotted Falcon
That is your states reputation in Canada and the opinion of a Canadian friend of mine who moved to Texas. Our societies are quite different. Same sex marriage has been legal in Canada for seven years. We have no abortion laws. We have strict gun laws. We just have different values than your state. So what happened is very sad but not unexpected.

Tenni,
You are about the rudest SOB on this site and i am tired of your BS.
I don't make assumptions enough to paint a whole society based on what I see in the movies and based on what one idiot friend says.
I prefer to do my research based on facts and make up my own mind. Obviously, this is too difficult a concept for your frozen brain to handle or maybe you just don't have a mind to think with on your own or maybe it is living in the socialist paradise of Canada. Prepare to be assimilated!
I also have friends from Canada down here who love it. As a matter of fact, I worked with one of them for over 10 years in 4 different companies that had us travel from Florida to Colorado to here. So screw what your friend says.
I've been nice up til now, but I don't play doormat to anyone.
If you don't like me or my opinions f off. I try to only debate the topic and not attack the person, but when personally attacked ,,, the gloves come off.

[Long Duck Dong]

Annika.... its difficult in a way, cos I do not see what happened as any more tragic cos of the sexuality / gender of the victims nor what happened, any more heinous because of sexuality / gender..... but I view it from the point of view as a parent.... would a possible crime against one child be more heinous than the same crime against another if one was LGBT and the other was not....

if it was one of the site members, how many of us would focus on the nature of the crime and reduce it to a possible hate crime against the LGBT and how many of us would mourn the loss of a loved one, a friend, a part of the family and pray for justice to be served, not cos the lost one was LGBT, but cos we lost somebody we cared so much about......

my heart goes out to the family and I do hope that the surviving teen is able to recover and provide answers....but I have the gut feeling that the sexuality aspect will continued to be pushed cos it makes better news and provokes more of a reaction from people, than the fact that one teen is dead and another is fighting to survive.....

[falcondfw]

Annika.... its difficult in a way, cos I do not see what happened as any more tragic cos of the sexuality / gender of the victims nor what happened, any more heinous because of sexuality / gender..... but I view it from the point of view as a parent.... would a possible crime against one child be more heinous than the same crime against another if one was LGBT and the other was not....

if it was one of the site members, how many of us would focus on the nature of the crime and reduce it to a possible hate crime against the LGBT and how many of us would mourn the loss of a loved one, a friend, a part of the family and pray for justice to be served, not cos the lost one was LGBT, but cos we lost somebody we cared so much about......

my heart goes out to the family and I do hope that the surviving teen is able to recover and provide answers....but I have the gut feeling that the sexuality aspect will continued to be pushed cos it makes better news and provokes more of a reaction from people, than the fact that one teen is dead and another is fighting to survive.....

exactly my sentiments.

[æonpax]

I begin to wonder why we have language.. so few seem to be able to comprehend it...:(

The problem is "literacy" and in particular, lack of critical thinking skills.

[DuckiesDarling]

The problem is "literacy" and in particular, lack of critical thinking skills.

You know, Aeon you and Fran should both stop having a go at other's comprehension skills, if you hadn't noticed by now most of the people who belong to a forum, you know a text based communication area, can read. It's when you keep trying to read into what people say that it gets to be an issue. So both of you need to stop your little digs and then maybe other's won't get defensive. See how easy it is to all just get along without being super bitch? Oh wait, you can't. Do continue.

[æonpax]

Annika.... its difficult in a way, cos I do not see what happened as any more tragic cos of the sexuality / gender of the victims nor what happened, any more heinous because of sexuality / gender..... but I view it from the point of view as a parent.... would a possible crime against one child be more heinous than the same crime against another if one was LGBT and the other was not....

if it was one of the site members, how many of us would focus on the nature of the crime and reduce it to a possible hate crime against the LGBT and how many of us would mourn the loss of a loved one, a friend, a part of the family and pray for justice to be served, not cos the lost one was LGBT, but cos we lost somebody we cared so much about......

my heart goes out to the family and I do hope that the surviving teen is able to recover and provide answers....but I have the gut feeling that the sexuality aspect will continued to be pushed cos it makes better news and provokes more of a reaction from people, than the fact that one teen is dead and another is fighting to survive.....


I'll respect your opinion on this but thankfully, everyone is not you nor thinks like you...or me for that matter. This incident is very important to the LGBT community not becuase in your opinion, "it makes better news" but becuase is another violent crime that has been seen as an affront against gays in general....in a political environment here in the US that is becoming hostile to gays.

The fact that these females were lesbian is NEWS aside from the tragic loss of life. Every time a white cop shoots a black person, it becomes news because of an alleged racist angle to it. To try to deny the fact that such a motivation is possible is an attempt to blow off reality, which is what you are doing with these lesbians.

You can convolute this issue all you want to fit your personal ideology but again, the fact remains, two females who were lesbians were shot for reasons unknown. It is being discussed, much to your chagrin, as a possible hate crime, such as in this HuffPost "Gay Voices" article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/26/mollie-judith-olgin-mary-christine-chapa-teen-lesbian-couple-shot_n_1627318.html

You are deliberately downplaying the possibility that they were shot becuase of their orientation, for your own purpose(s).

[æonpax]

You know, Aeon you and Fran should both stop having a go at other's comprehension skills, if you hadn't noticed by now most of the people who belong to a forum, you know a text based communication area, can read. It's when you keep trying to read into what people say that it gets to be an issue. So both of you need to stop your little digs and then maybe other's won't get defensive. See how easy it is to all just get along without being super bitch? Oh wait, you can't. Do continue.

And you my dear duckie, should learn the art of critical thinking. I could post a list of the forums and news services that are discussing this issue as a possible hate crime but I am afraid you would ignore them like you do all other facts that disagree with your ideology.

If this thread annoys you and your ilk, which is obviously does, why post in it? You and your buddies actually created this controversy here...then try to play the victim. So very sad there are people like this.

Perhaps if you would expand your horizons a bit more...you know, think outside that box you confine yourself in, it's not a pretty world but it is REAL and the dangers in it are REAL.

Can't handle this issue? The solution is obvious...don't post in threads containing adult issues. Problem solved.

[BiDaveDtown]

Well said DFWFalcon. As a bisexual Texan, I really resent when people talk about our state like it's the source of all anti-LGBT hate. I lived in a major city on the west coast, and had biphobic and homophobic slurs yelled at me publicly there three different times, and when I visited a large so called "progressive" city in Canada I also had slurs yelled at me there, which never happened in Texas even when I lived in small towns here. Yes, a lot of bigots live in Texas, but they do in California and even in Canada as well, and there are plenty of non-bigots in both places. And may I remind ya’ll that anti-LGBT bigotry is written into both states’ constitutions, and now there's a federal law against hate crimes for LGBT people. Also, Houston is the largest city ever to have an openly lesbian mayor, which is something SF has never had. Let’s talk about how we can make queer folks’ lives better in Texas, California, and everywhere instead of using gay rights as a reason to argue over whose state is better.

[æonpax]

Well said DFWFalcon. As a bisexual Texan, I really resent when people talk about our state like it's the source of all anti-LGBT hate. I lived in a major city on the west coast, and had biphobic and homophobic slurs yelled at me publicly there three different times, and when I visited a large so called "progressive" city in Canada I also had slurs yelled at me there, which never happened in Texas even when I lived in small towns here. Yes, a lot of bigots live in Texas, but they do in California and even in Canada as well, and there are plenty of non-bigots in both places. And may I remind ya’ll that anti-LGBT bigotry is written into both states’ constitutions, and now there's a federal law against hate crimes for LGBT people. Also, Houston is the largest city ever to have an openly lesbian mayor, which is something SF has never had. Let’s talk about how we can make queer folks’ lives better in Texas, California, and everywhere instead of using gay rights as a reason to argue over whose state is better.

No one was keying on Texas, not here nor in anyone of the news services or forums I have seen discussing this incident. I guess it must be Texas pride thing.

[DuckiesDarling]

And you my dear duckie, should learn the art of critical thinking. I could post a list of the forums and news services that are discussing this issue as a possible hate crime but I am afraid you would ignore them like you do all other facts that disagree with your ideology.

If this thread annoys you and your ilk, which is obviously does, why post in it? You and your buddies actually created this controversy here...then try to play the victim. So very sad there are people like this.

Perhaps if you would expand your horizons a bit more...you know, think outside that box you confine yourself in, it's not a pretty world but it is REAL and the dangers in it are REAL.

Can't handle this issue? The solution is obvious...don't post in threads containing adult issues. Problem solved.


Aeon, I have long had an issue with people, MOSTLY YOU, sensationalizing things as it makes for better news copy. As was pointed out with the Martin case, the photos presented as the victim were a much smaller younger Martin in an attempt to garner more sympathy. Someone died. That's the bottom line and answers need to be found. In this case someone died and someone is clinging to life and maybe if they survive answers will be more forthcoming. But the constant insistance of the LGBT in snatching any tragedy and pushing it for all it's worth backfires when things are proven to have not been because they are LGBT. I'm sorry you can't step down off your pedastal long enough to join us in the real world where bad things happen to good people all the time and there is no rhyme or reason.

[falcondfw]

I'll respect your opinion on this but thankfully, everyone is not you nor thinks like you...or me for that matter. This incident is very important to the LGBT community not becuase in your opinion, "it makes better news" but becuase is another violent crime that has been seen as an affront against gays in general....in a political environment here in the US that is becoming hostile to gays.

The fact that these females were lesbian is NEWS aside from the tragic loss of life. Every time a white cop shoots a black person, it becomes news because of an alleged racist angle to it. To try to deny the fact that such a motivation is possible is an attempt to blow off reality, which is what you are doing with these lesbians.

You can convolute this issue all you want to fit your personal ideology but again, the fact remains, two females who were lesbians were shot for reasons unknown. It is being discussed, much to your chagrin, as a possible hate crime, such as in this HuffPost "Gay Voices" article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/26/mollie-judith-olgin-mary-christine-chapa-teen-lesbian-couple-shot_n_1627318.html

You are deliberately downplaying the possibility that they were shot becuase of their orientation, for your own purpose(s).

Joan,

I think you are making a mistake and missing the point.

The fact these young women were attacked, whether lesbian, bi, or straight, is a complete tragedy.

The fact one of them is dead and the other fighting for her life absolutely sucks.

Those responsible must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I think everyone agrees on these facts. At least I hope everyone does.

The fact is ALL media, right-wing or left-wing, is just media these days. They are not reporters. They are spinners.

Why is it so important they were LESBIAN lovers? because it serves the media agenda (and yours from what I see).

Why is it so important they are young? because it is better in sensation - "Cut down. In the prime of life."

Why is it so important they are in Texas? because we have had high profile stories blown up by the media in the past that make Texans look like right-wing, bigoted, red-necked, serial-killer, rubes. And yes, there are more than a few idiots to justify that.

These women need justice, not spin. If the evidence shows it is a hate crime, the bastards should be hung from a tree.
If not, they should still be hung from a tree.

Crime is crime. Sick as it is. Do you, or anyone else, seriously think you can determine someone's motives for a crime without a confession? If so, I seriously need to come see you to get my head straightened out. lol.

[falcondfw]

No one was keying on Texas, not here nor in anyone of the news services or forums I have seen discussing this incident. I guess it must be Texas pride thing.

BULLSHIT!
STOP LYING!
The freakin headline itself says killed in Texas!

[Long Duck Dong]

I'll respect your opinion on this but thankfully, everyone is not you nor thinks like you...or me for that matter. This incident is very important to the LGBT community not becuase in your opinion, "it makes better news" but becuase is another violent crime that has been seen as an affront against gays in general....in a political environment here in the US that is becoming hostile to gays.

The fact that these females were lesbian is NEWS aside from the tragic loss of life. Every time a white cop shoots a black person, it becomes news because of an alleged racist angle to it. To try to deny the fact that such a motivation is possible is an attempt to blow off reality, which is what you are doing with these lesbians.

You can convolute this issue all you want to fit your personal ideology but again, the fact remains, two females who were lesbians were shot for reasons unknown. It is being discussed, much to your chagrin, as a possible hate crime, such as in this HuffPost "Gay Voices" article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/26/mollie-judith-olgin-mary-christine-chapa-teen-lesbian-couple-shot_n_1627318.html

You are deliberately downplaying the possibility that they were shot becuase of their orientation, for your own purpose(s).


I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

[ExSailor]

I've been checking out some of the stories about this and right off the top of my head I can think of different scenarios that have nothing to do with the sexuality of these two people. The major one coming to mind is drugs. It's a tragedy but just trying to sensationalize it as a LGBT tragedy is indeed "cashing in". Every day in this world someone is the victim of a crime, the sexuality of the person does not make the crime any more or less horrific. So I want to wait before I lament the poor lesbian couple and would rather have the facts in the case and know exactly who did the shooting if not why. But I'd be willing to lay odds it will come down to someone being where they shouldn't have been for an act they shouldn't have been engaging in. I agree with your post. It does sound like a drug related crime. These are not bisexual or gay men so they wouldn't have been in a park at 12AM looking for sex like we used to do before the internet! People who are into hard drugs like cocaine, crystal meth, crack, and heroin do however go to parks and other places very late at night or at all hours of the day and night to cop drugs. It could be a scorned ex who went crazy as well, or even a murder-suicide. Even the police chief of that Texas city says how it's not a hate crime and there's no evidence that these women were shot because of their sexual orientation. caller.com/news/2012/jun/26/portland-police-chief-no-evidence-suggest-teenage/

[falcondfw]

I agree with your post. It does sound like a drug related crime. These are not bisexual or gay men so they wouldn't have been in a park at 12AM looking for sex like we used to do before the internet! People who are into hard drugs like cocaine, crystal meth, crack, and heroin do however go to parks and other places very late at night or at all hours of the day and night to cop drugs. It could be a scorned ex who went crazy as well, or even a murder-suicide. Even the police chief of that Texas city says how it's not a hate crime and there's no evidence that these women were shot because of their sexual orientation. caller.com/news/2012/jun/26/portland-police-chief-no-evidence-suggest-teenage/

Excellent and honest sailor. If it turned out to be an LGBT hate crime, I am sure you would, as I would fight to see the criminals never see the light of day again.

[falcondfw]

I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

Good point LDD. I read the report an hour ago. In the RIGHT-WING media. Turnabout is fair play. Evil bastards, ON BOTH SIDES, need to be fried. Stir fried even. After they are suitably recruited (forced) by BUBBA to be ... entertaining.

[ExSailor]

Excellent and honest sailor. If it turned out to be an LGBT hate crime, I am sure you would, as I would fight to see the criminals never see the light of day again. Even if it's a hate crime or isn't one I still don't want the person who murdered the one woman and tried to kill the other one to see freedom ever again.

[æonpax]

Joan,

I think you are making a mistake and missing the point.
Prove it.

The fact these young women were attacked, whether lesbian, bi, or straight, is a complete tragedy.
No one said it wasn’t.

The fact one of them is dead and the other fighting for her life absolutely sucks.
I agree

Those responsible must be punished to the fullest extent of the law. I think everyone agrees on these facts. At least I hope everyone does.
I agree

The fact is ALL media, right-wing or left-wing, is just media these days. They are not reporters. They are spinners.
Now that is your opinion and to a certain extent, I agree. However, what makes to come to that conclusion? Can you cite examples? Do you think this particular news article had a spin to it and why? What do you consider good journalistic reporting and why?


Why is it so important they were LESBIAN lovers? because it serves the media agenda (and yours from what I see).
Because, it is “topical” which is to say, pertaining to or dealing with matters of current or local interest. Like it or not, Gay rights and incidences involving gays has the attention of the nation. The same holds true for the elections, voting rights and the recent SCOTUS decision on immigration. It's all topical.


Why is it so important they are young? because it is better in sensation - "Cut down. In the prime of life."
Good question. Any assault, anywhere, especially involving a murder of young people, is news. Would you tell the media to stop reporting of murders and assaults because you don’t like it? Did the age of the victims offend you? Do you remember when Elizabeth Smart was abducted? Should the media have ignored her age and religion becuase YOU feel it's sensational?


Why is it so important they are in Texas? because we have had high profile stories blown up by the media in the past that make Texans look like right-wing, bigoted, red-necked, serial-killer, rubes. And yes, there are more than a few idiots to justify that.
1) This happened in Texas. Would you have liked it better if the news agencies kept the location a secret or made up a new location, lets say Alabama or North Dakota?
2) The article did NOT mention Texas other than a location. Your reference to a few of the citizens there as being right-wing, bigots and red necks may have merit but it is NOT what the story was about. Please remain focused.


These women need justice, not spin. If the evidence shows it is a hate crime, the bastards should be hung from a tree. If not, they should still be hung from a tree.
Can you point out the supposed “spin” in this article or are you assuming something without facts? I agree whomever was responsible for this should be prosecuted and punished to the fullest extent of the law. Unlike you though, I do not believe in “mob justice” nor “capitol punishment.”


Crime is crime. Sick as it is. Do you, or anyone else, seriously think you can determine someone's motives for a crime without a confession? If so, I seriously need to come see you to get my head straightened out. lol.
I seriously see you are looking for any wacky idea, no matter how far fetched, how unrealistic and how contrived, to derail this thread. What you just stated proved absolutely nothing other than your inability to accept facts as they are. Moreover, you blame me for reporting ,verbatim, something that hundreds of other news agencies are reporting in the same exact language.

I can respect your opinion that you disagree with what you perceive, (for reasons you did not fully articulate) as being sensationalistic reporting, but I don't agree. Now you can close your eyes, put your hands over your ears and keep saying La la la, but that is not going to change the reality that many people feel and think, this could be a hate crime against homosexuals.

If you have ever read Don Quixote, there is a point where the stories protagonist criticizes Quixote for not seeing "life as it is" to which he replies most poignantly, what is life as it is? Quixote had seen the horrors of war and it overwhelmed him..."life as it is." Does the media have a responsibility not to overwhelm the viewer in reporting "life as it is"...in all it's unpleasantries? Now that's for you to decide. For me, I don't want mine sanitized or editorialized.

[æonpax]

I see a tragedy with two females shot for unknown reasons, that happen to be lesbians.... you see two lesbians shot for unknown reasons....

people are people regardless of the sexuality... they are human beings just like the rest of the human race.... and I will continue to see people as people regardless of sexuality, cos sexuality is a aspect of who people are, not the sum total of their existence......and while my heart goes out to the family and friends over the tragedy, it goes out to them cos they are suffering cos of what happened to their daughters / friends.... not to two lesbian females that just happen to be their family / friends....

I am a lil surprised that you are making a big deal out of this over the sexuality and remaining very silent over one of the main leaders in the san francisco fight for same sex marriage, being charged with objectionable material of a illegal nature, and the claims that he is being targeted cos he is gay.... or is he the wrong sexuality for you to post about in the forums ?

First, may I suggest you contact the hundreds of agencies worldwide that have reported this incident and voice to them your objections. I do not see your objections as being unreasonable, albeit unrealistic and short-sighted. While you are at it, please contact all the LGBT organizations with your protests.

It is YOU bringing up sexuality. It is YOU mentioning sexuality and it is YOU with the problem here. You also don't like my opinion but hey, deal with it.

It's not a perfect world my friend, you just have to know your own limitations if you want to change things. Whining to me about something I posted is rather useless...usless. of course, your real intention is something other than than to be critical about journalistic techniques.

[Long Duck Dong]

First, may I suggest you contact the hundreds of agencies worldwide that have reported this incident and voice to them your objections. I do not see your objections as being unreasonable, albeit unrealistic and short-sighted. While you are at it, please contact all the LGBT organizations with your protests.

It is YOU bringing up sexuality. It is YOU mentioning sexuality and it is YOU with the problem here. You also don't like my opinion but hey, deal with it.

It's not a perfect world my friend, you just have to know your own limitations if you want to change things. Whining to me about something I posted is rather useless...usless. of course, your real intention is something other than than to be critical about journalistic techniques.


I am still waiting to see ANY legal outfit prove that the sexuality had ANYTHING to do with the tragedy..... and until that point, the sexuality of the females is simply and bluntly to make headlines.... I reckon if they were not lesbians, the headline would have read two teens shot in Texas and not two heterosexual teens shot in texas, and you would have not bothered to post it in here, cos they are heterosexuals.....

as for me bringing up sexuality.... WTF is your thread titled ??? teletubbles riot in texas ???? barney the dinosaur has a sex change in arkansas ??? wonder woman joins WBC in texas ? ????? nope, its Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas.......

now I will say it again, its a fucking tragedy, I hope in the event that its proven to be a crime, that justice is done... not cos they are lesbians, teens, females or they shave their fucking legs and wax their bikini lines..... but cos justice needs to be done, cos they are PEOPLE, not just lesbians teens from texas, but people....

I am pretty fucking sure that their parents are not mourning what happened to their lesbian children, but to their own flesh and blood, their kin, their children....and I am not overly sure that they are happy about the fact that the tragedy is being made any more of a tragedy in peoples eyes, just cos they are lesbians.....

on a foot note, why have you not posted anything about the reopening of the case in australia from the 80s, where the police now believe that up to 10 if not more, gay males may have been pushed to their deaths over the side of a cliff at a gay cruising spot... cos if that is proven to be a hate crime, it is going to be one of the worst that australia has ever seen......

[æonpax]

I was asked to produce evidence that a) crimes against gays or the LGBT are on the rise. b) I also volunteered to make the correlation between such crimes and the rise in anti-gay rhetoric coming from the conservative right.

I’ll start with a);


Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting - Hate crimes committed against LGBTs in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2011 included 30 murders, the highest number ever recorded by a coalition of anti-violence organizations. The deaths, an 11 percent increase from 2010 (when there were 27), were among statistics in an annual report the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs issued on May 31. But in New England -- where none of the reported murders occurred -- increased reporting is beginning to address the problem. - http://www.edgenewyork.com/news/local///133867/anti-lgbt_hate_crimes_rise,_but_so_does_reporting


Crimes against LGBT community are up, despite social gains - Violent crimes, including murder, increased last year against people identifying themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT), and people of color among those groups were most likely to be targeted, an advocacy group reports.

A report last month by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, a group that supports victims of anti-LGBT harassment, found: (read the link) - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-07-31-LGBT-violence-lesbian-gay-transgender-bisexual-survey_n.htm


Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs report says violent crimes against people in the LGBT community rose 13% in 2010, and that minorities and transgender women were more likely to be targeted. - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/13/nation/la-na-lgbt-hate-crimes-20110713


Hate Crimes Against LGBTQ People Highest In 14 Years - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects today released a collective report on hate crimes against LGBTQ people. Despite increased public and political acceptance of gays and lesbians, the number of crimes against LGBTQ people is the highest since 1998, the year they began tallying such attacks and also the year Matthew Shepard was murdered. - http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/hate-crimes-against-lgbtq-people-highest-in-14-years.html

[æonpax]

1) I am still waiting to see ANY legal outfit prove that the sexuality had ANYTHING to do with the tragedy..... and until that point, the sexuality of the females is simply and bluntly to make headlines.... I reckon if they were not lesbians, the headline would have read two teens shot in Texas and not two heterosexual teens shot in texas, and you would have not bothered to post it in here, cos they are heterosexuals.....

2) as for me bringing up sexuality.... WTF is your thread titled ??? teletubbles riot in texas ???? barney the dinosaur has a sex change in arkansas ??? wonder woman joins WBC in texas ? ????? nope, its Teen lesbian couple found shot in the head in Texas.......

3) now I will say it again, its a fucking tragedy, I hope in the event that its proven to be a crime, that justice is done... not cos they are lesbians, teens, females or they shave their fucking legs and wax their bikini lines..... but cos justice needs to be done, cos they are PEOPLE, not just lesbians teens from texas, but people....

4) I am pretty fucking sure that their parents are not mourning what happened to their lesbian children, but to their own flesh and blood, their kin, their children....and I am not overly sure that they are happy about the fact that the tragedy is being made any more of a tragedy in peoples eyes, just cos they are lesbians.....

5) on a foot note, why have you not posted anything about the reopening of the case in australia from the 80s, where the police now believe that up to 10 if not more, gay males may have been pushed to their deaths over the side of a cliff at a gay cruising spot... cos if that is proven to be a hate crime, it is going to be one of the worst that australia has ever seen......

1) Look at my original post. I said it was too early to tell if it was a hate crime.

2) I quoted the headline. Would you have preferred I made up something that did not mention the gender or orientation of the victims?

3) Thank you Captain Obvious.

4) What's your point in all that? See #3

5) Is this a trick question? I live in the US and can barely keep up with the news here. If you consider it important, then by all means, post it.

[Long Duck Dong]

1) Look at my original post. I said it was too early to tell if it was a hate crime.

2) I quoted the headline. Would you have preferred I made up something that did not mention the gender or orientation of the victims?

3) Thank you Captain Obvious.

4) What's your point in all that? See #3

5) Is this a trick question? I live in the US and can barely keep up with the news here. If you consider it important, then by all means, post it.


1) what does your original post have to do with what I said in my post... I never mentioned your original post, nor did I mention hate crime in the paragraph you are refering to

2) yeah you quoted the headline, than accused me of bringing up sexuality.... so was sexuality first mentioned by me, or by you ????

3) once again, I am not making it about sexuality, and nor are the cops, the media is doing that quite nicely

4) my point is that the parents are lamenting what happened to their daughters, their flesh and blood... and I would be surprised if they are crying bigger tears cos of the sexuality of their daughters....

5) well I assumed since you had so much time to misread what I post and then put words in my mouth that I did not say, that you would have time to check out some of the other big LGBT issues going on around the world......

so lets try this again... I am not making it about sexuality, that was done by the media.... I see a tragedy, they see a way make a headline stand out.... I see a possible crime, the media see sexuality, I see two teen females shot in strange circumstances, the media sees lesbians and a possible hate crime..... I see a family strugging with the loss of a daughter and another family with a daughter in hospital, the media sees a dead lesbian and a lesbian in hospital.....the police see two teens shot at night with a large calibre gun, the media sees two lesbians, the police see no connection between the sexuality and the event, the media sees lesbians....

I could go on and on.... but my point is simple, its tragic, my heart goes out to the family, if its a crime, i hope that justice is done fairly etc etc... and the sexuality still doesn't matter to me.... only to the media and you

[æonpax]

1) what does your original post have to do with what I said in my post... I never mentioned your original post, nor did I mention hate crime in the paragraph you are refering to

2) yeah you quoted the headline, than accused me of bringing up sexuality.... so was sexuality first mentioned by me, or by you ????

3) once again, I am not making it about sexuality, and nor are the cops, the media is doing that quite nicely

4) my point is that the parents are lamenting what happened to their daughters, their flesh and blood... and I would be surprised if they are crying bigger tears cos of the sexuality of their daughters....

5) well I assumed since you had so much time to misread what I post and then put words in my mouth that I did not say, that you would have time to check out some of the other big LGBT issues going on around the world......

so lets try this again... I am not making it about sexuality, that was done by the media.... I see a tragedy, they see a way make a headline stand out.... I see a possible crime, the media see sexuality, I see two teen females shot in strange circumstances, the media sees lesbians and a possible hate crime..... I see a family strugging with the loss of a daughter and another family with a daughter in hospital, the media sees a dead lesbian and a lesbian in hospital.....the police see two teens shot at night with a large calibre gun, the media sees two lesbians, the police see no connection between the sexuality and the event, the media sees lesbians....

I could go on and on.... but my point is simple, its tragic, my heart goes out to the family, if its a crime, i hope that justice is done fairly etc etc... and the sexuality still doesn't matter to me.... only to the media and you


First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian. Does that offend you? It seems to. The media reports on specific crimes against; gays, Jews, Islamics, women, blacks, Latino's, elderly and handicapped. Do you oppose this kind of reporting too? If you have an ax to grind against journalism and reporting methods such as Who, What, When, Where and Why? take it to those who teach it and maintain that structure.

You are looping yourself here. Any human death is a tragedy and loved ones morn. No sane person will say otherwise. What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation". I may be wrong but in my opinion, you are hiding behind the human agony of death in order to take pot shots at a legitimate topic such as violence against gays....a topic that tens of millions are concerned about.

You can be such a phoney sometimes. At least have the backbone to admit what you are really doing, instead of harping on false issues that only exist with you and those who share your ideology about homosexuals.

[FinkDoodle]

I'll phrase my statement so it could be better understood by some parties. The deaths of two strangers is a tragic thing and is not the business of gossiping magpies on an adult chat board, no matter how they try to make it so . . . is that better?

[Long Duck Dong]

jesus christ..... do you listen to yourself... ????

I do not give a fuck about their sexuality, their orientation, the state of their hair last year during the full moon at 2.13 in the morning on a tuesday in june......

I have posted a number of times in the forum about how I see things in terms of basic human rights for people, I leave the politicking and all that BS for people like you and fran that like to go on about religion and politics etc etc, I really could not give a rats ass about that shit.....

I saw the same BS when my former bisexual / lesbian sister and her lesbian partner died of aids and the LGBT community suddenly had a interest in it cos they were lesbians that died of aids and all wanted to be a part of the funeral and do interviews with me about what happened etc... and I turned around and said how many of you fuckers ever bothered to send them a card, a email, ring them, call in and say hi.... and they wanted to talk about how they wanted to give their condolences and pay their respects.... my answer was no, you want to turn their funerals into a fucking media circus and get attention for your cause.....

I lost a best friend and a sister, two of the people that I loved so much, but they only mattered when other people could use them to get attention for themselves... up until that point, most of the LGBT never gave a fuck about them and kept the hell away...... skye was so much more than just a sexuality / orientation, she was my sister, my friend, my supporter and I was not the only one that loved her to bits.....

to the LGBT media community, she was just a lesbian that died of aids and somebody to make a story out of.....

so yeah, call me a phoney all you want..... I have lived thru the pain, the heartache and the loss that one family is going thru.... the loss of a family member that also happened to be a lesbian... so I know just how much it can hurt and how much of a pack of assholes the media can be when it comes to dehumanising a person and turning them into a headline

[falcondfw]

I was asked to produce evidence that a) crimes against gays or the LGBT are on the rise. b) I also volunteered to make the correlation between such crimes and the rise in anti-gay rhetoric coming from the conservative right.

I’ll start with a);

Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting - Hate crimes committed against LGBTs in the United States and Puerto Rico in 2011 included 30 murders, the highest number ever recorded by a coalition of anti-violence organizations. The deaths, an 11 percent increase from 2010 (when there were 27), were among statistics in an annual report the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs issued on May 31. But in New England -- where none of the reported murders occurred -- increased reporting is beginning to address the problem. - http://www.edgenewyork.com/news/local///133867/anti-lgbt_hate_crimes_rise,_but_so_does_reporting


Crimes against LGBT community are up, despite social gains - Violent crimes, including murder, increased last year against people identifying themselves as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT), and people of color among those groups were most likely to be targeted, an advocacy group reports.

A report last month by the National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs, a group that supports victims of anti-LGBT harassment, found: (read the link) - http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2011-07-31-LGBT-violence-lesbian-gay-transgender-bisexual-survey_n.htm


Hate crimes against gay, transgender people rise, report says - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Programs report says violent crimes against people in the LGBT community rose 13% in 2010, and that minorities and transgender women were more likely to be targeted. - http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/13/nation/la-na-lgbt-hate-crimes-20110713


Hate Crimes Against LGBTQ People Highest In 14 Years - The National Coalition of Anti-Violence Projects today released a collective report on hate crimes against LGBTQ people. Despite increased public and political acceptance of gays and lesbians, the number of crimes against LGBTQ people is the highest since 1998, the year they began tallying such attacks and also the year Matthew Shepard was murdered. - http://www.towleroad.com/2012/05/hate-crimes-against-lgbtq-people-highest-in-14-years.html



I think the first headline/notation says it all - Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting.

REPORTING is up. That is why you hear more about it and why the statistics have risen. Yes, that is a good thing. Crimes against people should ALL be reported and responded to. Not just because they are black or latino. Not just because they are Bi, Les, or TG. But because they are CRIMES!

[falcondfw]

"First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian."

ok. pardon my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference?

"What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation"."

no. that makes it sensationalism. News would be - "Two women found shot in the park". Even in Houston or Dallas, that doesn't happen every day. That makes it news. Adding color or sexuality makes it sensationalistic spin for a political purpose.

[void()]

*void comes dancing along, stops upon seeing it ... gasps ... runs to it and leaps on it, catching it firmly ... he stands back up and dances about madly brandishing the 'nutball brush' and singing "my precious, precious precious", splattering nutball paint all over randomly as he dances on ...*

[void()]

Seriously? Two people dead, and it's nobody else's business but theirs and their families? Criminy, what do we pay police detectives for, I wonder? I mean, there's a killer on the streets (unless it was an extremely clever double suicide), but hey, it's not really anyone else's business, right?

In general, just to throw my two cents in as a reader of the thread (and I'm sure I'll be seen simply jumping in on the activist side, or maybe the women's side if there is one in this case), but all I saw was Joan *entertaining the possibility* that this could be a hate crime, given the circumstantial evidence...not inferring that it actually was, or claiming it was and then denying the claim.

Such rancor in this thread, sheesh. Feels a lot more to me like highschool pettiness than a discussion of anything; more to do with who dislikes whom than with who said what.

I eagerly await being told what I just said.

You said we need more silver because of it somehow mysteriously vanishing when I come to visit. And no, I'm not using it to support a meth/dragon habit despite that possibly being a first consideration. I actually have an allergy of silver, something to do with mother Luna. * void dances on to the local Habibb shop to buy stainless steel flatware, singing the hairy eel song as he goes * Oh, you also said that if I can make you laugh, we can go out for coffee later. ;)

Ha! And I agree with you. Now, let me move this bishop to diamond jack, plus one fly ball and presto I got Rummy!

Seriously, I agree. Aeon did not say it absolutely was a hate crime. While I may feel her implications were given to sensationalism, that is merely my opinion. Brass tacks, she did not state it was a hate crime, even posted a pull quote, quoting the police whom said they were unsure, that it being a hate crime may be considered. Frankly, it sounds like the police are doing their job, investigating a homicide.

[falcondfw]

*void comes dancing along, stops upon seeing it ... gasps ... runs to it and leaps on it, catching it firmly ... he stands back up and dances about madly brandishing the 'nutball brush' and singing "my precious, precious precious", splattering nutball paint all over randomly as he dances on ...*

I think I've been splashed with some of that "nutball paint", but not in a violent sort of way. lol

[Annika L]

You said we need more silver because of it somehow mysteriously vanishing when I come to visit. And no, I'm not using it to support a meth/dragon habit despite that possibly being a first consideration. I actually have an allergy of silver, something to do with mother Luna. * void dances on to the local Habibb shop to buy stainless steel flatware, singing the hairy eel song as he goes * Oh, you also said that if I can make you laugh, we can go out for coffee later. ;)

Ha! And I agree with you. Now, let me move this bishop to diamond jack, plus one fly ball and presto I got Rummy!

Seriously, I agree. Aeon did not say it absolutely was a hate crime. While I may feel her implications were given to sensationalism, that is merely my opinion. Brass tacks, she did not state it was a hate crime, even posted a pull quote, quoting the police whom said they were unsure, that it being a hate crime may be considered. Frankly, it sounds like the police are doing their job, investigating a homicide.

Aye, matey! Finally, someone who can read *and* write!! Just gie me back the silver, and I'll happily supply ye wi' all the reusable plasticware ye can shake a rude stick at (or at least eat potater salad wi').

Now I don't *exactly* recall the line about the coffee...but what the hell, you've got Rummy and you did make me laugh, so it's your call! Where and what time should we meet?

[biguy71]

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.

[void()]

Now I don't *exactly* recall the line about the coffee...but what the hell, you've got Rummy and you did make me laugh, so it's your call! Where and what time should we meet?

Would love to reach over and gently lay a hand on your shoulder as I've been keen to have done in the past. Had a friend tell me, I could come to GA to see him. He excused himself to get the door, there I was. Still not sure how I used to do that, just did. Lately, seems whatever rules effect normal folks are catching up to me. "Void, you just cannot be in two, or two thousand places at once. It's inconceivable and rude!" Or so some muckity muck tells me.

Let's us leave that open. Definitely want to pay a visit though, hell may even get a notion for a *gasp* beer.

[void()]

I think I've been splashed with some of that "nutball paint", but not in a violent sort of way. lol

*void snickers and blushes* I almost doused elian with nutball paint earlier. Darn wires got in the way. Un/fortunately he went to bed, without me is the unfortunate of it. Can assure you if it were just a matter of druthers, mine would be in his bed.

[æonpax]

I think the first headline/notation says it all - Anti-LGBT Hate Crimes Rise, But So Does Reporting.
REPORTING is up. That is why you hear more about it and why the statistics have risen. Yes, that is a good thing. Crimes against people should ALL be reported and responded to. Not just because they are black or latino. Not just because they are Bi, Les, or TG. But because they are CRIMES!

Selective reading and on top of it, just the headlines. Did you check out the stats on that link? Of course not. They indicate a a RISE. Did you check out the stats and graphs on the other links? Of course not. You don't want to facts and data to interfere with your fantasy.

Get real dude. Next time you post, at least try to give me the false impression you actually read something.

[æonpax]

"First off, no one reported on the female's sexuality. What was reported was their ORIENTATION, which is Lesbian."

1) ok. pardon my ignorance on this subject, but what is the difference?

"What makes certain deaths NEWS and what you seem to have a problem with, is specifics such as "orientation"."

20 no. that makes it sensationalism. News would be - "Two women found shot in the park". Even in Houston or Dallas, that doesn't happen every day. That makes it news. Adding color or sexuality makes it sensationalistic spin for a political purpose.

1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

[æonpax]

1) I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. 2) There is no indication of motive in this crime. I also disagree with the idea that violence against homosexuals has increased. In fact, I would argue that there is less violence against homosexuals now than ever before. I don't believe that there has ever been a time in the history of Western civilization since the rise of the Judeo-Christian religions when homosexuals and bisexuals have enjoyed the safety and freedoms that we enjoy today. I'm certainly not saying there isn't room for improvement, but it could be a lot worse. If you don't believe me, then just go and ask someone who was around prior to the 1970s.
`

1) Discussion.

2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting - http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018545704_apustexasteensshot.html

3) See post #51 in this thread. - http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?13117-Teen-lesbian-couple-found-shot-in-the-head-in-Texas&p=232552&viewfull=1#post232552

[falcondfw]

[/FONT]
1) Google is your friend.

2) Sensationalism is a type of editorial bias in mass media in which events and topics in news stories and pieces are over-hyped to increase viewership or readership numbers. Nice opinion but unfortunately it has become a "talking point" of the right. Prove it.

Joan,

On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.

On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil. What Fing planet are you from, anyway?

I am tired of your BS games. Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic. THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act". This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and you are a fool if you do not agree.

Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.". Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life. And YOU are spinning it!

[falcondfw]

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018545704_apustexasteensshot.html)"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

The point is TWO WOMEN ARE DEAD. That is what is important. In your undisquised political agenda, you seem to have forgotten that.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Whatever the case with this case is, I feel sorry for the families and friends of these two young ladies. The clues will come to light eventually, or they wont. Point is, two families are grieving, and one's life willnever be the same again. :(
Spirits bless the remaining young woman, and let her healing begin in her heart and mind soon.
Cat

[æonpax]

Joan,

1) On number 1, that is tacky. You obviously know the difference. Is it that much harder to type an answer than a snide remark? Try educating people who truly want to learn. It will make you a better person. Oooopppssss. I forgot. Liberals are already perfect and can't get any better.
2) On number 2, prove it? PROVE IT??? Seriously? Why the hell does it matter if they were lesbian or not? They could have just been two friends meeting to talk in the park and it would be just as tragic, just as evil.
2a) What Fing planet are you from, anyway?
3) I am tired of your BS games.
3a) Anyone who can read knows the headline is sensationalistic.
3b) THE INVESTIGATION IS NOT COMPLETE and the results of the investigation are not reported and the idiots are already saying things like "We are always looking at that" (in reference to the sexuality) and "It does not appear to be a random act".
3c)This is a complete act of hatchet journalism until the facts are out and
3d) you are a fool if you do not agree.
4) Whatever happened to "We report, You decide"? It has become "We decide what we will report and how we will report it before we report it.".
4a) Political spin disgusts me. Especially where one woman is cut down and another is fighting for her life.
4b) And YOU are spinning it!
`
1) Why are you playing dumb? If you do not know the difference between "sexuality" and "orientation", you should not be in this discussion/argument. I'm not here to educate you or anyone else. Furthermore, you have completely failed to answer any of the questions I have posed to you. So please, give it a rest.

2) Yes, please PROVE that the headline and article I posted at the top of this thread is "Sensationalistic" You claim it is but provided no proof or insight as to why you think it is.

2a) Don’t tempt me to say where I think you’re from.

3) Too bad, so sad. It might help if you knew how to mount a constructive argument. This site can help you - http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/how-to-argue/

3a) Then produce “Anyone” to explain to me why they think the headline/article is spin, as you are unable.

3b) Who said it wasn’t? That has nothing to do with this discussion.

3c) I’m in a very magnanimous mood right now. Check this link out - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=us&tbm=nws&q=teen+lesbians+texas&oq=teen+lesbians+texas&aq=f&aqi=d2&aql=&gs_l=news-cc.3..43j43i400.2703.8135.0.9578.19.3.0.16.16.0.17 7.346.2j1.3.0...0.0.nZJL3JpJkew – and count how many news sources, many mainstream, use the phrase “teen lesbian” in headlining this incident. I count well over 350. Tell me why these people are wrong for using that phrase…if you can.

3d) Warning…please try to keep this civil.

4) Why are you quoting the “faux news” logo? That has nothing to do with this. Again, please remain focused on the topic.

4a) I feel the same way too which is my I do not get my news from faux, MSNBC or CNN.

4b) You are repeating yourself. I asked you a few times to prove any of your accusations and you avoid doing so.
`
`

Synopsis – Let me help you out here. You are giving me your “opinion”. Opinions are NOT fact. An opinion is a subjective belief, and is the result of emotion or interpretation of facts. Opinions are never right or wrong they are merely a figment of what someone believes. However it can be reasoned that one opinion is better supported by the facts than another by analyzing the supporting arguments.

I have asked you to support your opinions, either with fact or logic. You have refused, which you can do. There is no rule that you must. However, if you are going to argue that what you say is fact, not opinion, then you have to support that, which you have again failed to do.

It is good to respect another's opinions but at the same time, a person does not have to believe them or give them any credence. As you have provided absolutely NO evidence, proof or even a logical argument to bolster your opinions, I am free to dismiss them in the manner in which I choose. In your case, I absolutely reject your opinions based on lack of any evidence, whatsoever.

[elian]

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.

[æonpax]

"2) It is still under investigation. However, there are still many whom believe this crime was motivated by their orientation. - June 27, 2012 at 5:34 PM - Gay rights groups condemn Texas shooting -http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...teensshot.html (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2018545704_apustexasteensshot.html)"

Who gives a rat's ass what gay rights groups say? I put them in the same category as lulac and the naacp. Relevant once. Out for publicity now.

I think this pretty well sums up where you are coming from.

[biwilliams]

This is rather pathetic, really two young women are dead. The reasoning behind it is as of right now unknown. So why are people here in these forums arguing among themselves? Why not let the detectives do their jobs and find out who is responsible and why it happened. Instead of bickering like children perhaps a bit of respect towards the two young women is more prudent. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation was, it doesn't matter where they are from. All that matters is that what happened was life shattering. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to drag it out in the forums is rather childish especially over a topic such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to the families that were impacted by such a tragedy.

[æonpax]

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.
`

There is a human dynamics behind every...and I mean EVERY news story out there. It is so omnipresent that many times we fail to remember that. 9/11, for example was all about human courage, suffering and perseverance. But it was also much, much more than that and went beyond the scope of the human condition.

Many of the news articles I posted here in reference to the teen lesbian assault, brought up the human side of this. Interviews with parents, classmates and loved ones, but it would appear no one read those articles and/or chose not to comment on what they said. Instead, I see here arguments about the semantics of reporting...not to mention those with other ulterior motives.

To report news, only through the pathos aspect, renders such a story incomplete and is an egregious disservice to those who read news for a complete story. Hundreds of innocents are killed in the Mideast becuase of war and drone assassinations. Their pain and suffering is no less or worse than those who loved the teens assaulted in Texas...but that is not the whole story.

I agree, let's not discard the human condition here but at the same time, lose sight of the fact that this incident, is being felt my many, to be part of a larger picture and want to be informed about it.

[Long Duck Dong]

I've always been fascinated by the interaction of society, history and technology.. I'm starting to see a pattern emerge with all of these threads, it would seem that people are learning about a lot more than hate crime. There is such a vicious undercurrent of .. resentment..did I get that right? People are trying to be themselves, express themselves, understand themselves and how they fit into the world and in relationship with others. What does the group hold valuable? Am *I* valuable? How can another person be so violent? I am not against anyone being able to express their opinion, but ultimately we should recognize the OTHER work that is going on here, not that it's even really a personal attack - but hold each other in love, knowing that ultimately all people want to be happy, most people need healing. The polarization that is going on right now, that has been going on for like 10 years - takes a toll on people. Thank you cat, for bringing the focus back and reminding me what is really important - that regardless of the circumstances I hope that family, the surviving spouse (err..friend) and the surrounding community find compassion and healing. The internet is sort of a wicked place at times, it expands our sphere of information and influence to very broad depth..or at least gives the illusion of such. Most of us only have a limited amount of energy at any one point in time so it is important to recognize just what your sphere of influence IS, and put your energy toward where it might best be used there.. For example, I am sure that there are LOCAL families that experience the same issue that could use some support. When I read Aeon's post I was immediately reminded of the similar transsexual stories that get posted on here from time to time - people wondering if violence and hatred against transsexual people will ever end. I pray that one day, all of it ends - for everybody. If it is an issue of drugs, I hope society understands on a fundamental level that people need support beyond selling what comes out of a test tube. Heck, sorry Drew - but I hope that one day there is no need for this forum - on that day it won't matter WHO you love, or how you choose to express your identity because society might recognize that ALL people have value.


gonna go off topic to address what you said.....

I was once a soldier.... one day, I had a guy in my sights, spotter gave me details and I was about to pull the trigger....and something happened in my mind.... the psychs reckon I snapped... I never snapped, pulling the trigger would have easy ( something I was to prove later in life )... instead, I stopped thinking in terms of US and Them.......

maybe its taught to us, maybe its a instinctive thing, maybe its just a survival trait.... but we constantly do the US v's THEM, thing... and dehumanize everything, including ourselves, in order to think that way.... and its a bit like this thread.... there has been talk in other sites about how it could be a hate crime, but what if the other people were LGBT as well, something that has happened in the past.... a US vs US situation... LGBT against LGBT... suddenly there is no US vs THEM issue, and most people do not know how to handle it, so they adapt a new approach of " we could not be like that person, we are * normal * people " and so people find another reason to *dehumanize the other person and ourselves, by creating a new * sub group *, the normal people Vs the not normal people....

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc

what went thru my mind that day, was that I was about to put a bullet in another person, a son / brother / nephew / uncle, somebody with skills, abilities, feelings thoughts and emotions, a sexuality / orientation.. not just a enemy combatant that was going to do the same to me.....

its the same thing that went thru my mind when I first read the thread... they dehumanized the ladies into lesbians... and people reacted with the * crimes against the LGBT * instead of a life lost and another adversely effected..... we the offended and angry v's the ( possible ) offender/s that deserves justice.....
the only time that we mostly stop dehumanizing people is when its the ones we care about, cos we actually know them....and even then, we will say things like its time that the LGBT stop suffering at the hands of other people... and forget that the LGBT are more than capable of doing it to themselves and us.... cos we are no different to the rest of humanity, we just like to dehumanize others so we can like think we are and use that as the reason that society does to us what it does......

hugs elian

[void()]

years have passed since... and I have continued to try to think in terms of we and us and ourselves...... and found of all the battles in my life, that that one is the hardest to win, cos even tho I changed, most of the world has not..... and that is why constantly I have to point out to people that I am not taking sides, just looking thru other peoples eyes..... and that is why there will never be peace and the utopia of one people, one world.... cos people will never stop using the dehumanization of people, including themselves, in order to see issues with things in the world and a reason to be pissed off, upset, annoyed, grieved etc


What you're describing sounds like something called attachment to aversion, maybe at least from a Buddhist perspective. I have seen much the same as you, subtle differences but in general principle, the same visions. Find it a shame humanity cannot, will not mature enough to unleash itself from this attachment. Of course, know I'm a great one to speak.

Also in case it has been missed, I find this incident quite tragic. My best thoughts and wishes to my rock are being sent to the families. Here's hoping the young lady fighting makes it and can provide a map to the aggressor/s. Let us set aside differences and share that hope. Seem to recall someone telling folks that faith can move mountains.

[Annika L]

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

[Long Duck Dong]

annika, I respect what you are saying...

personally, I would have focused more on what happened, with the intention of seeking information about what happened, as its not something that happens every day in texas... as it is the type of tragedy that stands out from a tragedy where the police have all the info they need..... and yes, the fact that they were lesbians and lovers could have been put in a more tactful way.....but I am not sure that it would rate the attention that its getting if the headline was worded differently, cos a lot of people may have briefly read the headline and not the article....

one of the first articles I read about the tragedy was about 7 paragraphs long, the last paragraph was about what happened, the first 6 were about how they lived in a dorm and were lovers for 5 months and how the parents and friends felt about them being lesbians.... and that really got at me, cos it was more about their sexuality and their personal life, than it was about what happened..... and to me, that was just so wrong.... it came across like the only reason it was newsworthy was cos of the sexuality.....

but yes, agreed, the LGBT community have a right to know about things like this.... trouble is a lot of things like this, go unnoticed cos nobody shares them with the rest of the LGBT community....unless they make headlines on the level that this event has..... its why I mentioned the other two events in my posts.. and noticed that nobody else had mentioned them.... one of them may be australias biggest anti LGBT crime that country has ever seen.....

this is the one about australia
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/australia/7181117/Police-told-to-reopen-gay-hate-murder

[æonpax]

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.


Unfortunately, this issue, as being discussed here, has the stench of political and ideological hypocrisy brought forth by its objectors. There are those here who hide behind the idea that the victims of this crime should not have been identified by their orientation, which is lesbian, then claim to be concerned about the rights of those in the LGBT. There is a big dichotomy here.

First, it was the police report that mentioned the females were lesbians ( http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/26/lesbian-teen-couple-found-shot-in-texas/ ) and that was obtained from one of the victims parents. It was also verified through classmates and friends. All the reporters did was copy the police information.

Second, this issue is being reported by all the major networks (AP, Reuters, ABC, CNS, NBC, CNN, BBC, et al) as being an assault on "teen lesbians"...except for one network....FOX, which refuses to identify them by their orientation. I'm not surprised considering their obvious ultra conservative bias.

I respect the opinions of those who claim some kind of altruistic objection to the fact these victims were identified as lesbian but despite their unsubstantiated and politically motivated protests, the story...unedited, is gaining its own momentum as a possible crime against a homosexuals.

[tenni]

Tenni,
You are about the rudest SOB on this site and i am tired of your BS.
I don't make assumptions enough to paint a whole society based on what I see in the movies and based on what one idiot friend says.
I prefer to do my research based on facts and make up my own mind. Obviously, this is too difficult a concept for your frozen brain to handle or maybe you just don't have a mind to think with on your own or maybe it is living in the socialist paradise of Canada. Prepare to be assimilated!
I also have friends from Canada down here who love it. As a matter of fact, I worked with one of them for over 10 years in 4 different companies that had us travel from Florida to Colorado to here. So screw what your friend says.
I've been nice up til now, but I don't play doormat to anyone.
If you don't like me or my opinions f off. I try to only debate the topic and not attack the person, but when personally attacked ,,, the gloves come off.

Falcon I do wish to apologize for connecting your state to high rates of murder by guns. I did look it up and yes I was writing partial bigoted statements. Your state is one of the states were fewer murders have happened by guns compared to other states in your country. However, your entire country is one the countries with the most murders by guns in the entire world. Sixty four percent of murders in Texas in 2010 used guns.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state


As far as my friend is concerned, he is not an idiot. My friend lived in San Antonio and has a doctorate.(now who is being judgmental and bigoted?) He is a very intelligent, progressive thinking man and that is why I give his words credence. He did make reference to his observation about guns in your state. Your writing indicates a certain attitude that he referred to many people in your state as having.

Please note that I did not make any personal attack on you personally. You however have. I would agree that I live in a more socialist society, less homophobic. We don't see wearing a kilt as wearing a dress/skirt. (an issue that my friend had with some homophobic people in San Antonio..he is hetero btw). I won't write the words that were used to describe your society(further upset you). If you followed your own advice you would have presented your research.

[elian]

` [SIZE=3][FONT=georgia] There is a human dynamics behind every...and I mean EVERY news story out there. It is so omnipresent that many times we fail to remember that. 9/11, for example was all about human courage, suffering and perseverance. But it was also much, much more than that and went beyond the scope of the human condition. The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

[falcondfw]

This is rather pathetic, really two young women are dead. The reasoning behind it is as of right now unknown. So why are people here in these forums arguing among themselves? Why not let the detectives do their jobs and find out who is responsible and why it happened. Instead of bickering like children perhaps a bit of respect towards the two young women is more prudent. It doesn't matter what their sexual orientation was, it doesn't matter where they are from. All that matters is that what happened was life shattering. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but to drag it out in the forums is rather childish especially over a topic such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to the families that were impacted by such a tragedy.

Thank God. Finally some sanity.

[falcondfw]

There are thousands of homocides in the US each year. They *cannot* all be given equal airtime, unless that airtime is so small that we don't hear about *any* of them. So the ones that get reported (more than locally) are exactly the ones with some kind of "special interest".

To say that we should only be concerned about the fact that these 2 women are dead, and the news should not be mentioning that they were lesbian or from Texas or whatever is to say that this murder is no different than the other 10000+ murders this year...which means it shouldn't have been reported nationally at all, in which case we wouldn't even know about it. Is that what you'd prefer?

When a murder happens in my community I damned well want to know about it. And the LGBT community *is* part of my community. So I *do* want to know when lesbians are murdered, even if it's not yet known whether the murder had anything to do with their sexuality. It's part of caring about your own.

EXACTLY Annika. THEY ARE MURDERS. Nothing more, nothing less. Until someone PROVES otherwise. Every murder is tragic. But to post here insinuating LGBT bias in the murder is disingenuous and stupid until the facts are in.

[falcondfw]

Unfortunately, this issue, as being discussed here, has the stench of political and ideological hypocrisy brought forth by its objectors. There are those here who hide behind the idea that the victims of this crime should not have been identified by their orientation, which is lesbian, then claim to be concerned about the rights of those in the LGBT. There is a big dichotomy here.

First, it was the police report that mentioned the females were lesbians ( http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/06/26/lesbian-teen-couple-found-shot-in-texas/ ) and that was obtained from one of the victims parents. It was also verified through classmates and friends. All the reporters did was copy the police information.

Second, this issue is being reported by all the major networks (AP, Reuters, ABC, CNS, NBC, CNN, BBC, et al) as being an assault on "teen lesbians"...except for one network....FOX, which refuses to identify them by their orientation. I'm not surprised considering their obvious ultra conservative bias.

I respect the opinions of those who claim some kind of altruistic objection to the fact these victims were identified as lesbian but despite their unsubstantiated and politically motivated protests, the story...unedited, is gaining its own momentum as a possible crime against a homosexuals.

WHAT??????

You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have absolutely had it with you!

MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.

Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate.
But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.

I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.

And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?

That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.

You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!

Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that?

Murder is illegal and needs to be punished.

[Annika L]

EXACTLY Annika. THEY ARE MURDERS. Nothing more, nothing less. Until someone PROVES otherwise. Every murder is tragic. But to post here insinuating LGBT bias in the murder is disingenuous and stupid until the facts are in.

No, see I think you missed my point. If they were murders, nothing more/nothing less, then you'd never have heard of them and we wouldn't be talking about them. The only reason we've heard about this case is that these women were lesbians...and I have no problem with that. I *didn't* hear about the straight Catholic guy murdered in Colorado...and although it's equally tragic, I'm ok with not having heard of that one, 'cause straight Catholics in Colorado are not in my community, and I recognize I can't hear about and grieve *every* victim...I'll let his people grieve him. But to me, the fact that they were any stripe of LGBT was sufficient reason to post the thread.

Personally, I disagree that Aeon insinuated that they were motivated by LGBT bias...she merely entertained the obvious possibility. I would certainly like to hear the followup on the case...is it ever linked to LGBT bias, or is it determined that it was drug-related, or otherwise entirely not hate-motivated. It would have been interesting to see if Aeon would have posted that followup, had all this bashing not occurred. As it is, I couldn't blame her if she was too busy/distracted fighting fires and/or sick of the apparently inevitable backlash to do it.

[falcondfw]

Falcon I do wish to apologize for connecting your state to high rates of murder by guns. I did look it up and yes I was writing partial bigoted statements. Your state is one of the states were fewer murders have happened by guns compared to other states in your country. However, your entire country is one the countries with the most murders by guns in the entire world. Sixty four percent of murders in Texas in 2010 used guns.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

As far as my friend is concerned, he is not an idiot. My friend lived in San Antonio and has a doctorate.(now who is being judgmental and bigoted?) He is a very intelligent, progressive thinking man and that is why I give his words credence. He did make reference to his observation about guns in your state. Your writing indicates a certain attitude that he referred to many people in your state as having.

Please note that I did not make any personal attack on you personally. You however have. I would agree that I live in a more socialist society, less homophobic. We don't see wearing a kilt as wearing a dress/skirt. (an issue that my friend had with some homophobic people in San Antonio..he is hetero btw). I won't write the words that were used to describe your society(further upset you). If you followed your own advice you would have presented your research.

Tenni,

I apologize to your friend. That was rude of me and uncalled for.

Texas is definitely ... different. I was raised in Massachusetts. So concealed-carry licenses are totally foreign to me. BUT, that is exactly WHY
the criminals think twice. They never know who is packing. I can find a gun in Canada, the Philippines, or any other nation on Earth, if I want. So can the criminals. Arming citizens who have been through a serious course on gun safety is a FANTASTIC way to make criminals think twice.

64%. i am not doubting the stats, but that is surprising to me. I would have thought a lot more were due to drunk driving.

Your friend obviously has his wits about him. But i am referencing things from the standpoint of several Canadians I know who are down here in DFW, Austin, and San Antonio. As well as several friends in Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, and Quebec who have expressed opinions about the state of national health up there and have expressed desires to come to Texas.

As for my attitude, I am ex-military. I STRONGLY believe in the attitude of "PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER!"

I did make personal attacks and i apologize most sincerely. That is not me. I love a good, intelligent, debate. And if yer frien has a prblm with wearin a kilt, he should talk to this amer of scot PROUD descent! lol.
As for my attitude

[falcondfw]

The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

i totally agree elian. After 9/11, things were amazing. It was an "ALL FOR ONE" mentality. People came together in amazing ways. 6 months later, the same bloke who saluted you on the highway in rush hour is giving you the finger.

Personally, i still ball like a baby on every 9/11 anniversary. I came so close to losing family and friends. My ex and i actually watched the second tower be hit from her OB's waiting room.

[æonpax]

....

WHAT?????? You SICK BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have absolutely had it with you!.
Calm down poindexter. You are being childish now

MY FIRST POST stated what a tragedy this was from the standpoint that two young women were murdered. You seriously call that ideological and political hypocrisy? You are sicker than I thought.
I'm not a trained psychologist but I do recognize abhorrent behavior when I see it and your reaction here is commonly called "flipping out."

Liberal is one thing and I enjoy a good, honest, focused debate. But you are so radical in your beliefs and how much you hate men and are a LGBT activist, there is no hope for you.
What you say and what you actually do, are two distinctly different things.

I tried to keep this civil, but your VERY thinly disguised insults have pushed me too far.
Meh!

And why is Fox's "bias" a problem? If they are lesbian, great. BUT IT HAS NO BEARING ON THE FACT THEY WERE ATTACKED UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE! You claim to know journalism. Is this journalism? Is this investigative reporting? Or is this spin for a political objective?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc

That s what I love about you libs. When confronted with the truth, you stammer (like obama or biden) and find any excuse to divert attention.
Whatever you say buddy, is OK by me

You do not respect opinions different from your own. It is in every post you have responded to me with. STOP LYING!!!!
Meh!

Finally. For the last time. IF this is a hate crime because the women were les, the perp should be hung from the highest tree. If there is no proof of a hate crime, the perp should STILL be hung from the highest tree. What don't you understand about that? Murder is illegal and needs to be punished
As I said before, the perpetrator here should be tried and if convicted, punished to the full extent of the law. However, I do not believe in your kind of "mob justice" nor "capitol punishment."





"En este mundo cruel nada es verdad ni es mentira,
todo es segun del color del cristal con que se mira"
-
In this cruel world nothing is truth or lie,
everything depends of what colour is the glass you're looking through

[æonpax]

The shame is that it takes a tragedy to wake people up. I think after 9/11 the people that were not ALREADY awake had to consider for themselves what they found valuable. There was, at one time an honest spark of compassion and caring for others - maybe even a common cause that allowed people to come together. But a little while later people in general again seemed to became numb toward life and toward others who were not like them.

To a very large extent, I blame this toxic and intransigent political atmosphere we live in. Case in point, today's announcement by the Supreme Court upholding the Affordable Care Act...or as many call it, "Obamacare." I just left a site where people were ripping each other up over it. All the selfless solidarity brought in the wake of the 9/11 disaster is gone. Unfortunately, this is just another facet of the human condition.

[elian]

Apparently Rush Limbaugh was quoted on the radio yesterday saying that people are going to lose jobs over the ACA - I would like to know how. They are actually going to need a massive influx of data entry, IT and administrative people in order to implement a lot of the provisions. If anything, this bill might make it easier for small business to hire people. No, I don't think the bill is perfect, but I'm surprised as heck that we ever got the bill past the insurance lobby to start with. I already heard a few of the insurance CEOs saying, "We like some parts of the bill, we'll keep working on it." Great, while *I'm* working for a living, they can send millions of dollars and an army of lobbyists to help congress "clarify" it for the American people. The BEST part is they use my premium money to do it. Limbaugh is the same guy who kept railing, for two hours how the tires on all the cars in America were going to blow out because Obama suggested that you could save 2MPG in gas by adding a few more pounds of tire pressure to each tire - which I have done for years. I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours. These media outlets, and now corporate astroturfers have a vested interest in getting people to listen, sometimes it is as if they really don't even care what they are saying, as long as they get the media sponsorship. It is really hard for me to imagine what "politics" was like pre-9/11, because people are feeling pressured and it has gotten that much more abrasive since then...I think we need to stop the trend of having no room to disagree. We have 24 hour news channels, but really - there isn't always 24 hours worth of news. Why exactly do we NEED 24 hours worth of news?

[æonpax]

Apparently Rush Limbaugh was quoted on the radio yesterday saying that people are going to lose jobs over the ACA - I would like to know how. They are actually going to need a massive influx of data entry, IT and administrative people in order to implement a lot of the provisions. If anything, this bill might make it easier for small business to hire people. No, I don't think the bill is perfect, but I'm surprised as heck that we ever got the bill past the insurance lobby to start with. I already heard a few of the insurance CEOs saying, "We like some parts of the bill, we'll keep working on it." Great, while *I'm* working for a living, they can send millions of dollars and an army of lobbyists to help congress "clarify" it for the American people. The BEST part is they use my premium money to do it. Limbaugh is the same guy who kept railing, for two hours how the tires on all the cars in America were going to blow out because Obama suggested that you could save 2MPG in gas by adding a few more pounds of tire pressure to each tire - which I have done for years. I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours. These media outlets, and now corporate astroturfers have a vested interest in getting people to listen, sometimes it is as if they really don't even care what they are saying, as long as they get the media sponsorship. It is really hard for me to imagine what "politics" was like pre-9/11, because people are feeling pressured and it has gotten that much more abrasive since then...I think we need to stop the trend of having no room to disagree. We have 24 hour news channels, but really - there isn't always 24 hours worth of news. Why exactly do we NEED 24 hours worth of news?


Differences of opinions will always exist. Problem here is that we are losing our national "esprit de corps" which has resulted in increased incidences of, to put it mildly, "uncivil behavior". A study was recently released on this subject - http://www.webershandwick.com/civility/docs/2012_Civility_ExecutiveSummary.pdf I'm just as much to blame as anyone else.

I don't like Limbaugh nor his despicable approach to punditry but he's only a small cog (albeit obese one) in a far larger problem. Were I conspiratorial minded, I might say there are clandestine forces at work deliberately keep "we the people" apart and at each others throats....the strategy of "divide and conquer" or perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "divide and control".

I found an article, A Teen Lesbian Couple Is Shot and Left For Dead: What Matters Most Now Is How We Respond ( http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/06/26/teenage-lesbian-couple-was-shot-and-left-dead-what-we-do-in-now-in-response-matte ) which makes an excellent case as to why everyone, not just the LGBT, should be concerned as to why or the reason those teen lesbians were attacked. Given the present contentious ideological divide, such thoughts will be falling on deaf ears.

[void()]

I wish that *I* could also get paid big money every day to rant and rave on the radio for two hours.

*chuckles* Often tell myself I could do sportscasting or reporting on political stuff. Theses folks just seem to presume to tell what happened as you just saw it, heard it from the horse's mouth.

Example the President speaks. Then, you get two dozen people telling you forty different things an off handed "um" during the speech mean. I always take it as something a person does to indicate a considered pause, a point of them um, gathering thoughts prior to continuing, or honestly admitting to not knowing an answer, or how to answer. Yet it apparently has a horde of alternate unforeseen meanings.

So yeah, I could do that for sure. Oh wait, no I cannot as it involves cameras, not allowed to be filmed or photographed.

[Annika L]

I found an article, A Teen Lesbian Couple Is Shot and Left For Dead: What Matters Most Now Is How We Respond ( http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2012/06/26/teenage-lesbian-couple-was-shot-and-left-dead-what-we-do-in-now-in-response-matte ) which makes an excellent case as to why everyone, not just the LGBT, should be concerned as to why or the reason those teen lesbians were attacked. Given the present contentious ideological divide, such thoughts will be falling on deaf ears.

The "excellent case" this article makes involves a direct comparison to the Matthew Shepard case, where there was overwhelming evidence that the murder was hate-motivated. If it turns out that this more recent murder was hate-motivated, *then* I'll agree it makes an excellent case. But in the current absence of such evidence (aside from the circumstantial fact that they were lesbians), then whereas I don't find your OP to imply a hate motive for this crime, I do find this article to imply that very strongly...which causes me to question your reasons for posting it, since it only makes a valid statement (let alone a good one) if you buy that this crime is hate-motivated. Given the mode of discourse we've had in this thread so far, it makes me wonder what value you saw in something so purely inflammatory? Are you trying to get rid of certain people by giving them a coronary?

[æonpax]

The "excellent case" this article makes involves a direct comparison to the Matthew Shepard case, where there was overwhelming evidence that the murder was hate-motivated. If it turns out that this more recent murder was hate-motivated, *then* I'll agree it makes an excellent case. But in the current absence of such evidence (aside from the circumstantial fact that they were lesbians), then whereas I don't find your OP to imply a hate motive for this crime, I do find this article to imply that very strongly...which causes me to question your reasons for posting it, since it only makes a valid statement (let alone a good one) if you buy that this crime is hate-motivated. Given the mode of discourse we've had in this thread so far, it makes me wonder what value you saw in something so purely inflammatory? Are you trying to get rid of certain people by giving them a coronary?

I make no apologies that my OP did in fact imply a direct causation between the incident involving the lesbian teens and the conservative anti-gay bashing happening in the US. It is an opinion I will defend.

They key phrase to the article I posted was, to wit;



Activists in the LGBT community – and, really, any organized community that faces discrimination – have learned that it is important for there to be a swift and clear response and raising of awareness about these acts. Awareness coupled with public mourning, grief and a demand for justice are necessary.


Awareness of the possibility that such a crime may have been done becuase the women were lesbian. The article also pointed out that the LGBT was quick to react to this. Had the fact that these women were lesbian either deliberately been hidden or otherwise obfuscated, does one think the LGBT and other similiar civil rights groups would been quick to react and spread the word of this incident around? That question, btw, is rhetorical.

Such "awareness" is not just confined to the LGBT. Anytime a black or Latino is shot by a cop, there is a reasonable assumption that it may have been racially motivated. With women, in hiring and promotion practices, all things being equal, it reasonable to assume it may be becuase of gender prejudice. Those of the Jewish faith whom have also been discriminated against, keep themselves aware of the possibility of violations of their rights. Proving such things, of course, is another matter. Still, being "aware" that such a possibility exits, is also called "vigilance."

Once the facts are out, then we will know for sure. But until then, I think the article summed up what I believe, quite nicely;



The world has changed so much for LGBT youth in America since 1998. But even all of that change cannot stop a hateful and violent individual from committing such a disgusting act. It breaks my heart, but no matter how much work has been done to make the world better, nothing accomplished could protect those two girls that awful night.

What we can do in the wake of such tragedy is to make clear that such evil, such careless disconcern for two teenage women, does not occur without our notice.

[elian]

*chuckles* Often tell myself I could do sportscasting or reporting on political stuff. Theses folks just seem to presume to tell what happened as you just saw it, heard it from the horse's mouth. Example the President speaks. Then, you get two dozen people telling you forty different things an off handed "um" during the speech mean. I always take it as something a person does to indicate a considered pause, a point of them um, gathering thoughts prior to continuing, or honestly admitting to not knowing an answer, or how to answer. Yet it apparently has a horde of alternate unforeseen meanings. So yeah, I could do that for sure. Oh wait, no I cannot as it involves cameras, not allowed to be filmed or photographed. Aww, come'on honey - I'll give you your soul back when I get the film developed. Actually that was the other thing I hated about 9/11. Every network said, "Ok the mayor of NYC is going to speak now" - and instead of just letting us hear him speak they all had to talk over his mic to tell us what he was saying..

DId you see the comments today from Rex "don't worry, we have enough oil" Tillerson?

[elian]

I don't like Limbaugh nor his despicable approach to punditry but he's only a small cog (albeit obese one) in a far larger problem. Were I conspiratorial minded, I might say there are clandestine forces at work deliberately keep "we the people" apart and at each others throats....the strategy of "divide and conquer" or perhaps it would be more accurate to say, "divide and control".



You may think me off my rocker for this, but honestly - I DO believe we are very much in a psychic war that is AT LEAST 10 years old. "If you aren't with me than you MUST be against."

I tried to convince those that be of what they would be losing, lifted up young people as examples - "THIS is what you are losing" - over and over. For a while it worked, but there exist a group of "folks" whose lust for power is much like a horny group of vikings just back from a rampage who just happen to be parked right next to the Swedish Bikini Team tour bus.. The power of the examples I gave eventually paled in comparison to the ferocity of their appetite for lust and power.

It's sort of a once in a lifetime thing, I doubt I could do that again and have it mean anything. But know this, despite whatever you read, whatever horrible feelings you may experience in this life..there are still some who believe in the power of humanity to do good things.. The power of compassionate love is the only true thing powerful enough to stand up to the wickedness of this world.

[elian]

Well personally, I can have empathy for all families and communities that go through a loss but if I stopped to acknowledge every time someone was murdered in the world there wouldn't be time for anything else in life. It is a natural part of being human to feel an affinity toward a person that we have something in common with. Just what is wrong with that? You don't want to read about it? Then don't read this thread, problem solved.

Hopefully despite the viciousness the point has gotten through and aeon has now felt the reinforcement of the other point of view.

Like I said before, it's not an easy lesson to learn, to be patient, in the face of something as terrible as a loss of life. I learned that lesson for myself, again, very recently with the Trayvon Martin case. The ugly truth though is that while everyone else was "marching for Trayvon" - I was marching because I wanted a change.. I am tired of the spiritual violence that people perpetrate against one another. I am tired of the poorest people not having a voice, and the poorest people (economically) were the ones marching that day..the people in the majority couldn't figure it out. All people have something of value to contribute, just by being who they are. The difference is, the poorest people SHARE what they have but are happy to know people, the majority GUARD it, and are miserable trying to keep it from everybody else.

[Long Duck Dong]

based around what I have read on the net..... there was a witness that has given the police a description of the male believed to be responsible.... and the surviving lady is stable and may be talking with police.....

I hope the families have answers and that the police are able to resolve the situation as needed...... and for one family, I hope that they find closure and some form of peace....

[falcondfw]

Well personally, I can have empathy for all families and communities that go through a loss but if I stopped to acknowledge every time someone was murdered in the world there wouldn't be time for anything else in life. It is a natural part of being human to feel an affinity toward a person that we have something in common with. Just what is wrong with that? You don't want to read about it? Then don't read this thread, problem solved.

Hopefully despite the viciousness the point has gotten through and aeon has now felt the reinforcement of the other point of view.

Like I said before, it's not an easy lesson to learn, to be patient, in the face of something as terrible as a loss of life. I learned that lesson for myself, again, very recently with the Trayvon Martin case. The ugly truth though is that while everyone else was "marching for Trayvon" - I was marching because I wanted a change.. I am tired of the spiritual violence that people perpetrate against one another.

Elian,

Nothing is wrong with feeling affinity for those we have things in common with.

However, if you notice the threads Joan has started on bisex (many of the threads, not all), she often posts things to cause a riot under the guise of trying to cause debate and discourse. When you start flaming people, and not ideas, and calling names, it is not a debate or discourse anymore. That is what she does eventually to everyone who has the temerity to post disagreement with her stances.

She posted her original article knowing full well that the investigation is not even complete, never mind a trial. Yet she has no problems associating the article with right-wing hate speech and with hate crimes caused by the sex of the victims. She also claims to know journalism. If she does, then she would know that what she is doing is taking an absolute tragedy and spinning it to fit her political agenda. She just doesn't like being called out on it. Honesty is a bitch. It's there whether you want it to be or not.

The tragedy is one woman is dead and another fighting for her life. Who cares if they are Lesbian? or Bi? or green with pink polka dots? (ok. people would probably care about the last one. lol). Until it is shown to be a crime perpetrated because of the orientation of the victims, orientation should not even be mentioned. Not in the original article. And not by Joan.

[elian]

Well the strange thing is, even if that is what is going on I am grateful to have a forum to express the ideas that I am working through. Despite the words I have learned a lot in the last week just thinking out/about the things going on in this thread.

[tenni]

"I make no apologies that my OP did in fact imply a direct causation between the incident involving the lesbian teens and the conservative anti-gay bashing happening in the US. It is an opinion I will defend."

I am uncertain if it is wise to want to defend a possible incorrect reason why someone was murdered. Elian is correct about the Treyman situation. The man was judged in the media and racism has been connected to Treyman's death. We do not know the full circumstances. New information is being released about the accused and there is no trial yet.

In the next province to me, there was a recent horrific murder by an accused white man murdering an immigrant Chinese student man. It is horrific because the actual suspected murder was posted on the internet after being videotaped. The accused then dismembered the victim (not sure if videotaped) and mailed body parts to two federal political parties head offices and an elementary school thousands of km away from the murder location. (hands and feet). The torso was found outside of the accused apartment building. The head has still not been found.

The accused left many messages /images of himself on websites and there was a media reported reference to a gay relationship between the two initially in the first week . Now, the media is quiet about any sexual orientation connection. It is bad enough that his parents have had to come to Canada to get some of his body parts without being overwhelmed by statements about his possible sexuality. The accused may be bisexual and other statements have been made about his mental condition by experts. The bisexual possibility is no longer mentioned in the media. The accused was caught within a few weeks in Germany. He has been returned to Canada.

The media reported speculations are only made when substantiated by evidence and there is no statement being made about a sexual orientation issue or lovers. The police remain quiet to some extent. Waiting for the trial is the best thing to do. Both with the Magnotta (Canada) accused, the Treyman accused and in this teen murder case.

It would wise for all of us not to speculate that this teen murder is a hate crime at this point. I agree with that and what Annika has posted (#96). The OP seems to not agree and yet still originally agreed that such a tragedy should not be judged until more facts are in. It is even a further disconnect to extrapolate this murder to be caused by extreme radical anti gay propaganda at this time? It is a shame because such actions do not support her claims of intelligence and academic discourse. They do support her blog about how to win an internet argument to some extent. It is possible that some people get so intertwined with sexual political philosophy that it blurs their ability to be impartial at times?