Abortions Have Made Life Better for Millions Of Men:

[æonpax]

..."For every single woman who's ever had an abortion, there's a man somewhere in the story. For every woman who was able to delay motherhood until a better moment, or improve her existing kids' chances by not enlarging her brood, or end a pregnancy that was doomed to end in tragedy and pain, there's also a man out there who is not a father today -- or is a better father to the kids he has -- because a woman he was involved with had the means to make this decision."... ~ http://www.alternet.org/visions/155960/abortions_have_made_life_better_for_millions_of_me n%3A_it%27s_about_time_to_speak_up_in_support_/?page=entire
`

I’m 29. My oldest daughter is 15…go figure. Now that’s not the age I became pregnant but it was at an age that just the idea of a girl so young getting pregnant, was socially condemning and embarrassing, that both my parents and the church elders, were going to force me to get an abortion. In my own childish naïveté, I screamed out that if they did that…I was going public (not my exact words) with it. The utter hypocrisy and betrayal of both my parents and their church, who up until that time, I loved without condition… killed every last vestige of that same love I used to have for them.

No less than a day later, I was sent to live with my aunt, hundreds of miles away until after I gave birth. I never did return. Her father has become non-existent, persona non grata, as he wanted it.

If one thinks that means I an against abortion, one would be wrong. I support a females CHOICE to make her own decision regarding her body, without force or coercion. But the reality here is that most all abortions involve input and support by the male participant.

Putting it bluntly, if a million abortions have been performed, then there are a million men not required to pay child support. Not to mention, the money tax payers will not have to spend to support children who's fathers refuse to support for whatever their reasons. Just as many anti-choice fathers have said "the bitch aborted my baby!", many more have said "I'm not supporting a baby I don't think is mine!"

Ultimately, millions men breathe a sigh of relief when a woman has an abortion.

If women could transition custodial responsibility for the children simply and immediately to the father after giving birth, men would be marching by the millions is support of a right to choose. Only they would be protesting that they should have the right to choose to not be the Father.

Just as there are many “invisible” bisexuals whom have gained from the advances made in promoting LGBT rights, so too are there “invisible” men whom have gained by not being a father but these men are silent on this issue.

I think it’s about time this issue gets exposed as the author of this article, Sara Robinson, suggests. Men have too long offered their silent support while leaving the female to fend off attacks from the religious self-righteous, while also benefiting from the legal right for a female to chose.

[darkeyes]

`


If women could transition custodial responsibility for the children simply and immediately to the father after giving birth, men would be marching by the millions is support of a right to choose. Only they would be protesting that they should have the right to choose to not be the Father.

Just an initial comment Joan, many of those choosing to have the right not to be the father would also be choosing to have the right not to have fatherhood thrust upon them whether or not they are expected to provide support or involvement in a child's life.. some.. almost certainly many... as I have known, hitherto anti-abortionists and against the right of women to choose, wish to continue the latter and impose their will and control over a girl's body, but their hypocrisy know no bounds as they pressure the woman or girl into aborting the child... often, in cahoots with a pregnant girl's own father, such pressure is brought to bear that a young girl especially, isolated and alone, crumples under the strain and an unwanted abortion occurs...

[æonpax]

Just an initial comment Joan, 1) many of those choosing to have the right not to be the father would also be choosing to have the right not to have fatherhood thrust upon them whether or not they are expected to provide support or involvement in a child's life.. some.. almost certainly many... as I have known, hitherto anti-abortionists and against the right of women to choose, wish to continue the latter and impose their will and control over a girl's body, but their hypocrisy know no bounds as they pressure the woman or girl into aborting the child... often, in cahoots with a pregnant girl's own father, such pressure is brought to bear that a young girl especially, isolated and alone, crumples under the strain and an unwanted abortion occurs...

`
1) Watch it girl, that's a "slippery slope." Hypothetically, you are correct but the fact still remains, in most nations of the world, the legal concept of family, in regards to procreation, is that it takes two to tango and the responsibility is or should be, equally shared. Until such a time comes when a male can gestate, the biological factor here tips the scale. I'm not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is.

There are also men whom are fathers of many children (with different mates) and seem to be proud of it. Problem is, they do not support these children either financially or emotionally. But none of this is what this topic is all about.


*****

If one reads the article, the author is keying on support from those men whom have benefited from abortion but remain silent.

In my own experiences, I have run up against anti-abortion protest groups which were comprised of mainly men. Now this is not to say only men are against it but they do tend to be the most vocal and the most documented violent of the protestors, at least from my perspective.

I happen to believe that men who do support a woman's right to choice and have gained by it, should make their voices heard.

[Long Duck Dong]

while a female should have rights over their body...... the way that males are portrayed in that article is misleading.....

I have no issues with a females right to her body, just with the way that the female is often portrayed as the victim, the poor suffering female.... and the callous, conceited male that is enjoying not having to pay child support.....

I have lost count of the guys I know that would love to be a father to their children, but the female knows that she stands to get more money and freedom if she keeps the father at arms length, while they have to pay child support and fight for any rights.... its a bit like begging for the table scraps for some of them.....

I know a good few females that use abortion as a form of birth control or as a way of really hurting a guy.... and I know a number of females that have dumped their children on the father for various reasons.....

the right of choice is a dual edged sword, some people use it wisely, others use it as a weapon and some people abuse it as much as possible......

the trouble is that getting pregnant is easy now, cos somebody will pay or pick up the pieces, and the same with abortion... even with the heartache and pain it can cause... but that is the trouble with freedom of choice..... everybody has a choice, just not a brain

[darkeyes]

`
1) Watch it girl, that's a "slippery slope." Hypothetically, you are correct but the fact still remains, in most nations of the world, the legal concept of family, in regards to procreation, is that it takes two to tango and the responsibility is or should be, equally shared. Until such a time comes when a male can gestate, the biological factor here tips the scale. I'm not saying it's fair, but that's just the way it is.

Whether it is a "slippery slope" or not is debatable, Joan... but it is not hypothetical, It is an unpleasant reality of the attitudes of some men and how they react to the prospect of fatherhood. It does take two to tango I agree but u know as well as I, that responsibility to some is all too often a responsibility to be avoided at all cost... even at the cost of what were sincerely held principles and beliefs. Life isn't fair and very often it is not nice, and the conception of a child often brings out the very worst in people as well as the best.

[DuckiesDarling]

Many here know my thoughts on abortion, it is not for birth control AT ALL. It is, to me, supportable to have an abortion in the case of incest, rape or possible death for mother and/or child if pregnancy carried to term. *this includes severe malformations in which case I even support third trimester*. Now, that being said, the article was interesting for one standpoint, but it tries to make it seem as though men should support women's rights to have abortion because it absolves them of responsibility. Men have a right to be informed and to be included when a woman wants an abortion, but where does the right begin and end? Does it begin with the first kiss in a smoky bar as you head off to the backseat of the car? Or does it begin when the woman figures out she's "late"? It's time that instead of just saying go me I had an abortion and it made it better, we say I fucked up. I made a choice because I fucked up but my choice was not the fuckup. My choice was MY choice and I can live with it. Men who support their partners are awesome but no one should have to say anything made their life better if it truly didn't. It's a push for someone to put word's in another's mouth, there are men who would love to have had the opportunity to raise a child that was aborted by someone who felt it was only her choice to make as it was "her body, her right". There are men out there that never even know a woman aborted their baby. So please do not just keep dumping on men and act like they are the ones who do the evil in the world, they aren't. We are all in this together and both men and women have benefited and been deprived by abortions for various reasons. :2cents:

[tenni]

"There are men out there that never even know a woman aborted their baby. So please do not just keep dumping on men and act like they are the ones who do the evil in the world, they aren't. We are all in this together and both men and women have benefited and been deprived by abortions for various reasons."


I agree with the above statement and think that the OP is missing a few points.

I do support choice for women's reproductive rights. I basically agree with the core of the article. There are some aspects that have a bias and so the article is not just a call to action but it could be a more balanced perspective and alternative thinking.

It argues that men have a choice whether to be involved in the raising of the child while women do not. There is a twenty year commitment for women. Actually, the woman has several choices. Her first choice may be to abort the fetus or continue the pregnancy. Should she decide to carry the fetus to full term she has the choice whether to raise the child or turn the child over to the father to raise. If they can not stay as a couple they are still parents to the child and both have responsibilities. Should she turn the child over to the father, she would then have to pay child support to the father. She has the choice of giving up the child for adoption should she and the father not want to raise the child.

I think that such writers should encourage women to examine their alternatives and agree that stigma attached to some of the less traditional approaches (raise the kid or abort the fetus) should be encouraged. Men do or should have rights and responsibilities once the child is born. Society, men and women need to step forward and acknowledge parental rights and responsibilities. I know several men who initially did not want to raise the child but once the child was born, they spoke of a "dad button" that kicked in and their love and need to protect the child became very powerful and all consuming. Societal expectations to parent do seem stronger towards women and men are often seen as a side bar. More and more it becomes evident that a child needs both parents (or alternatives) in their lives.

[darkeyes]

A very male, and in some ways pro life perspective, Duckie... and not without some truth.. most of us probably know some woman or other who acts just as u say upon becoming pregnant.. there are selfish and irresponsible women too, I can't deny it for one moment.. yet it is a sad indictment on our societies as much as these women that such a situation is allowed to be and that so many women and young girls cannot see a better way to live their lives, gain somewhere to live or make a living...just as there are many men, most I think, who are responsible and decent and will do the right thing on behalf of mother and child, and as there are many good and decent men who support a woman's right to choose. The issue of abortion is a double edged sword as u say, but as Joan infers it is the women who carry the risk during the time of gestation and childbirth and since it is her life on the line she must be the final arbiter within the confines as decided by law.

And darlin' darlin'.. nice 2 cya back, but I am not holding all men to account, for all men are not the irresponsible selfish sods people think I portray them.. I may speak harsh words about men but these are harsh words about some men not all...the ovewhelming majority are not irresponsible and selfish, even those with whom I disagree on the matter of abortion and a woman's right to choose.. most men, like most women who have a different view from me are sincere human beings who are genuinely concerned about the welfare of both mother and child. They are lovers of human life and believe it a great wrong that woman can have a pregnancy terminated, very often for any reason.. some women have gone to the grave rather than terminate their pregnancy sometimes because they believe it to be a sin against God, and many men similarly out of honest conviction believe the same.. I can respect and even admire such principles even if I do not agree with them.. not all opposition to abortion and a woman's right is born of selfishness and misogyny...

..but much is. That there are advantages to abortion is undeniable, yet even those advantages do carry great angst among those women who decide to go down that route prior to and after termination is complete.. they have to live with themselves and what might have been and many come to regret their decision. Yet that should not alter the basic premise that it is the woman who must decide for herself what to do in the event of a pregnancy and it is for her to decide what is best for herself. That a prospective father, if he can be found or is still around, and certainly if still in a relationship with the mother, should be brought into discussions is something that is both sensible and right. But in the end, it is not his right to veto any termination, nor is it his right to insist on one for that matter, as is not uncommon.

Upon a pregnancy being discovered most people, both men and women do consider seriously the consequences of that pregnancy both socially and economically and morally.Most are glad certainly if in a stable relationship, many these days even if not. That some women act as Duckie claims is true.. they do it here too, but the vast majority act sensibly and responsibly and consider what is best for all. That many do not for whatever reason is regrettable, if some women and girls do not do so, the numbers of men who do not are much greater in number in part at least because it is simply much easier for them so to do. A woman is unable to ignore a pregnancy whatever its result. Even if electing abortion, there remains risk to the woman, which is something that cannot be said for men. And that very fact alone ensures that in comparison to the the overall number of abortions taking place, with pregnant women being the final arbiter, the overwhelming majority of decisions to terminate are taken for reasons other than personal selfishness.

[12voltman59]

I do very strongly agree with what Gloria Steinhem says about abortions: "If men could get pregnant---abortion would be a sacrament!"

Another thing about the abortion issue--that so many men are among the staunchest opponents of abortion doesn't have one thing to do with the fact they claim they so "love life"--but it has more to do with men being in control----they don't like it that women can have control of their reproductive capabilities because it means that men lose some degree of control over all those uppity, bitchy, pain in the ass women----that women can elect to have a baby or not----interferes with their god given property rights and such as far as so many of them are concerned.

[Huntingbuddy]

Any time one has the probability of bearing the cost of an action one should realize they need to decide if they can pay that cost. In the case of an unplanned pregnancy the woman always bears the greater cost, whether that be physically, financially or emotionally. Politically correct or not, she who stands to lose the most bears the most responsibility to avoid the situation. Simply put, if you know you're the one that would be pregnant and that you are the one who will bear the brunt of the birth or the decision to abort (or in the case of carrying to term - whether or not to keep the child and try to support it by yourself (and, slim though the chances are, the father), you need to be the one who is the most vigilant about avoiding the pregnancy. I swear I'd crazy glue things shut if I had a reasonable idea I was going to face that consequence.

[elian]

Wow it almost hurts to read those words. How sad that you would ASSUME that I would be happier if you had an abortion, that I'm over here breathing a "sigh of relief" ? I know some women who have had abortions, some of them there is not a day that goes by when they don't think about it, it's not an easy choice to make.

In the first place, I would use protection as much as possible if we didn't want to conceive, not to mention the fact that there are OTHER ways of pleasuring people besides intercourse.

If it DID happen I wouldn't FORCE my spouse to do anything, I would give her as much support as I could and hopefully we could work through it together.

What I would NOT do is just what is in my own best interest since there is more than one person involved..

Give us some f'king credit. How very sad, that someone wants to ASSUME that every person would act the same way... I'm not really getting any sex right now anyway - if it makes you feel better then I'll just stick to men - that way we can avoid this whole issue.

Ever figure that some men would WANT to have a child in their lives? Like most parents they just don't want to have to do it alone. I think this issue is a lot more complex than can be answered in one essay.

[pepperjack]

`

I’m 29. My oldest daughter is 15…go figure. Now that’s not the age I became pregnant but it was at an age that just the idea of a girl so young getting pregnant, was socially condemning and embarrassing, that both my parents and the church elders, were going to force me to get an abortion. In my own childish naïveté, I screamed out that if they did that…I was going public (not my exact words) with it. The utter hypocrisy and betrayal of both my parents and their church, who up until that time, I loved without condition… killed every last vestige of that same love I used to have for them.

No less than a day later, I was sent to live with my aunt, hundreds of miles away until after I gave birth. I never did return. Her father has become non-existent, persona non grata, as he wanted it.

If one thinks that means I an against abortion, one would be wrong. I support a females CHOICE to make her own decision regarding her body, without force or coercion. But the reality here is that most all abortions involve input and support by the male participant.

Putting it bluntly, if a million abortions have been performed, then there are a million men not required to pay child support. Not to mention, the money tax payers will not have to spend to support children who's fathers refuse to support for whatever their reasons. Just as many anti-choice fathers have said "the bitch aborted my baby!", many more have said "I'm not supporting a baby I don't think is mine!"

Ultimately, millions men breathe a sigh of relief when a woman has an abortion.

If women could transition custodial responsibility for the children simply and immediately to the father after giving birth, men would be marching by the millions is support of a right to choose. Only they would be protesting that they should have the right to choose to not be the Father.

Just as there are many “invisible” bisexuals whom have gained from the advances made in promoting LGBT rights, so too are there “invisible” men whom have gained by not being a father but these men are silent on this issue.

I think it’s about time this issue gets exposed as the author of this article, Sara Robinson, suggests. Men have too long offered their silent support while leaving the female to fend off attacks from the religious self-righteous, while also benefiting from the legal right for a female to chose.


I can very much relate to your story. My teen-age sweetheart became pregnant. Naturally, it was a real crisis for me at that time. The option of abortion came up. I was adamantly opposed to it, as you were. Second choice was adoption, which I favored and the option both my girlfriend and I leaned toward. After the birth, she begged me, " can we keep him? " I said yes and we decided to marry for the sake of the child. We were opposed by counselors, social workers who told us that, statistically, the deck was stacked against us. Yes, the marriage was short-lived. Halfway through it, I discovered the child was not really mine. The point is however, that I had developed a very deep, profound love for a cute little boy who grew into a handsome, good man. We weren't just father & son...we were buddies. That bond of love will go to my grave with me. After the dissolution of the marriage, I always felt a great sense of relief & peace that I never buckled & gave in to the option of abortion. Had I done so, the world would have been denied the presence of a beautiful human being. So, yes....I was very involved in the decision making process.

[Long Duck Dong]

A very male, and in some ways pro life perspective, Duckie...

and that makes it sound like I am only seeing one side of the story... I am not, I am seeing all sides.... and presenting one of the other sides

my ex fiancee had a abortion, she told me it was a D&C for a miscarriage.. and I went thru hell cos in my eyes, I was partly responsible for what she went thru in that hospital room..... her reasoning for it was a very twisted set of circumstances and not done to hurt me or get at me..... and many years later, I have come to terms with the fact that I would have passed on my unique genetic traits to the child and that is something that would have really screwed me up.....

so I would have been caught between a rock and a hard place, my wish and desire to have a child with a loving and devoted mother, v's the knowledge and understanding of the potential hell I could place upon that child... and the mother longed to be a mother, and a dammed good mother she is to her child, as a solo mother cos the father left her

it is easy to make statements about people in a forum by lumping them in a group, fran, but often the truth as to why, when, how etc, reveals a lot more heartache and pain for people than remarks like how males benefit from a female aborting a child cos of things like child support.....

the issue is that most males that stand up and say that they support a female that aborted a child, will be seen as guys that were scared of responsibility or paying child support.... and there could be so much more to it, like the child is be adversely affected to the point that true living would not be a option and neither of the parents would be able to handle that.... and while the argument can be made that others are willing and able to step into the gap..... what about the child that could spend a lifetime, never living, just existing.....

I am neither pro or anti abortion, I support a females right of choice over her own body, but I do not support a lot of the choices they make.... specially when its a selfish choice that is only in the best interests of the female without any true medical / realistic grounds

and that stance comes from 19 years of paying $10 of thousands in child support for a child that has never been proven to be mine, and proving that fact would cost me thousands more.... and still left me with no rights, no choices and a bloody great hole in my pocket......and yes there was two sets of dna tests done, they did not match up, but I still had to pay

[æonpax]

While I agree that the article was, in my estimation, not as well written as it could have been, (the author got a bit too garrulous on minor points) her main point is asking for public support from males who are involved in the females decision to get an abortion. The cornerstone for her argument is based on a 2011 study put out by the “Guttmacher Institute” which stated;


“Most Women Obtaining Abortions Report Their Partners Know Of And Support Their Decision – The overwhelming majority of women obtaining abortions in the United States (82%) report that the men by whom they got pregnant knew about the abortion, and nearly eight in 10 perceived these men to be supportive.” (source) ~ http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2011/02/01/index.html ~ (actual study) ~ http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j.whi.2020.10.007.pdf

Alarming, but not unexpected, was the finding that that women in IPV (Intimate Partner Violence) were substantially less likely to inform their male partner of their decision or keep him out of the loop entirely.

What I find disturbing is this; since a child, I’ve heard nothing but stories from men, all claiming to be victims of the females callous and heinous decision to get an abortion without their input. While I have no doubt of the sincerity of such reports, I am concerned as to how out of balance they look in the light of this Guttmacher report. It would appear that such incidence comprise only 18% of abortions.

The author did not directly mention this disparity but chose instead to ask those 82% who did support their female partner, to become more vocal or public about such support.


****


Latest demographics involving abortion by the CDC ~ http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm?s_cid=ss6015a1_w

[Long Duck Dong]

I know a few couples that mutually agreed to a abortion, mostly for health and safety reasons for the mother and child..... a decision that I know they did not make lightly and a decision that has cost them more than just a unborn child....

it is a decision that can had far reaching consequences for some people and yes, in that aspect I do agree that the guys should have more of a voice about their choice and decision and why.... but it does come back to the fact that they are merely a voice without a right of choice in the females actions, it still comes down to the female herself as to her choice as its her body.....

I remember the article posted in this forum about the guy that wanted to keep a unborn child, that went to court over the issue, and lost, as the court ruled that a female can not be forced to carry a child if she chooses not to..... and that accord is pretty much what I see in a lot of pro / anti abortion arguments.... the simple fact that its a females body and a females right....the male essentially has no say / no rights up until the child is born and even then, he doesn't really have a lot of rights either...

[æonpax]

In the US, the crux of the Roe V Wade decision was not about abortion, per se, it’s about a woman’s “right to privacy.” An abortion is a medical procedure, privy between a woman and her doctor, only, and as such, cannot be regulated by the state. This hold true to any person seeking treatment for anything. The only exception is where the state has a vested interest in protecting the safety of it’s citizens, such as in dealing with communicable diseases.

If a woman chooses to inform her partner, that is her prerogative as would be her decision not to. If you are saying, it’s not fair, I would agree. But then again, it isn’t fair that a woman has to shoulder all the pain and discomfort of a pregnancy and a male doesn’t. Men can appeal to congress to get such a law changed where as women, well they can appeal to Mother Nature but she informed me the other day that for men to become pregnant would take ”re-evolution” lasting hundreds of thousand of years and at this point, she’s just not interested in doing that.

Parental custodial rights involving children are not germane to this issue or discussion.

[darkeyes]

,.. that went to court over the issue, and lost, as the court ruled that a female can not be forced to carry a child if she chooses not to..... and that accord is pretty much what I see in a lot of pro / anti abortion arguments.... the simple fact that its a females body and a females right....the male essentially has no say / no rights up until the child is born and even then, he doesn't really have a lot of rights either...
I agree that a father, in principle, should be normally granted in law more rights post natal than is the case now, but let's not muddy the waters of a father's rights antenatal with that distraction...

[Long Duck Dong]

I respect a womans right to privacy and rights over her own body..... and yes, those rights extend to a unborn child, tho legal issues and other shit come into play there with the right of the guy...... its both fair and unfair depending on the situation, cos, it can place the female at undue risk to the health and wellbeing of her and the child, and it denies the partner the right to be informed of something that can affect them and the rest of their lives..... there are too many variables in it for me to say that its a unfair situation across the board

I am of the firm understanding that if a female wants the right to privacy and the right of choice over the child in her womb, then she should have it... and the father be exempt from any comeback on her behalf....cos she is making her choice concerning the future of 3 people, the mother, the father and the child... and all too often, it becomes a situation of her and HER child, the father is excluded from most, if any choices in the childs life....

there is more to pregnancy than 9 months of swollen ankles and cravings, as you know... but what about the father, and the sleepless nights worrying about providing for mother and child, feeling helpless that he can not do more for his partner to ease her suffering, the ( grey area ) sympathy pregnancy pains the father can feel, the dealing with the hormonal swings of the female, the fears, worries and concerns about how to be a good father..... and the pain, heartache and suffering that a guy can go thru if he finds out that a child was killed by the mother without his knowledge......

pregnancy and abortion is not all about the female, but since its her body, her choice, then it becomes her burden to bear... and that is why abortion can be a selfish act

[elian]

I think maybe it is better to shut my mouth and just read stories of OTHER people's experience, maybe then I can gain some true insight. All I will say is that I feel for all people in this situation - regardless of the outcome it is never an easy decision. My answer at 35 might indeed be different than my answer when I was 18.

[æonpax]

I respect a womans right to privacy and rights over her own body..... <snipped for brevity>
`

While I support a woman's right of choice, to a large extent, I am ambivalent about the entire concept of anyone having an unrestricted legal right to do anything, abortion included. While I agree with abortion in the case of the mothers health, rape/incest and other unique medical situations, I'm not at all comfortable with it being done as a "life style choice" and the fact that the male has absolutely no say in the matter.

[Gearbox]

`

While I support a woman's right of choice, to a large extent, I am ambivalent about the entire concept of anyone having an unrestricted legal right to do anything, abortion included. While I agree with abortion in the case of the mothers health, rape/incest and other unique medical situations, I'm not at all comfortable with it being done as a "life style choice" and the fact that the male has absolutely no say in the matter.
FEKINELL! Stick a poker up my arse and call me Suzy!:yikes2: That's the last thing I expected to read from you, must admit. (Not trying to insult, but probably am! Sorry!).
That article is all about feminism IMO, and dear God what a vile piece of work it is. No ball can be shot too low for some feminists, and it gives ALL feminists a bad name, sadly. I know it shouldn't!
How someone could sit and type such hurtful and emotionally void work of debauched macabre fantasy is beyond me. And THAT is just the title of the article. It doesn't get any better after that!

It's good to know that your not comfortable. Nobody should be IMO. We are not robots, and we there's more to life than the blanket 'rights' of a diverse group in such a tragic situation!

[darkeyes]

`

While I support a woman's right of choice, to a large extent, I am ambivalent about the entire concept of anyone having an unrestricted legal right to do anything, abortion included. While I agree with abortion in the case of the mothers health, rape/incest and other unique medical situations, I'm not at all comfortable with it being done as a "life style choice" and the fact that the male has absolutely no say in the matter. I hold a similar view, Joan.. once I was in favour of a womans right uncondiitionally, but time observation and knowledge of the world has made me much more ambivalent just as are u. Yet pregnancy carries real risk to life and I can understand the fear, especially in the young or first time mothers of that risk. I have never been pregnant but the thought does scare me and always has. I too am uncomfortable with life style choice but do accept that in some cases, such as already over large families, or where there are already stretched finances that, people feel it necessary. I hate, as Darlin' Darlin' has observed the use of abortion as a form of contraception when really this should not be necessary in this day and age although accepting that no form of contraception is entirely reliable. And to a great extent, regular use, as some women do, of the morning after pill by many, even sometimes by those who are anti abortion and pro life, is a lifestyle abortion for contraceptive purposes...

Regarding the father being involved in the decision whether or not to terminate a pregnancy I do think this is both sensible and advisable in most instances, but no father should have the right of veto. He may if there are grounds have recourse to law, but any veto must be taken within the law and in accord with the best medical advice. I am much less convinced that a father who has abandoned a wife, or partner, or with whom he once had a relationship should have a say, Yet I can see good sense in this sometimes, since many abortions occur because a partnerless woman feels abandoned or alone and proper support from a father, even if he was not a partner, may just tip the balance in her mind of having the child brought to term. But in many instances, a former partner has surrendered all right to be consulted because of his own actions or behaviour, or is due none because of the fact that no real relationship has ever existed other than a quick spot of casual rumpy.... every case is different and in the end must be judged on its merits. But consultation for the most part, yes in principle.. veto.. not in a million years...

[darkeyes]

FEKINELL! Stick a poker up my arse and call me Suzy!:yikes2: That's the last thing I expected to read from you, must admit. (Not trying to insult, but probably am! Sorry!).
That article is all about feminism IMO, and dear God what a vile piece of work it is. No ball can be shot too low for some feminists, and it gives ALL feminists a bad name, sadly. I know it shouldn't!
How someone could sit and type such hurtful and emotionally void work of debauched macabre fantasy is beyond me. And THAT is just the title of the article. It doesn't get any better after that!

It's good to know that your not comfortable. Nobody should be IMO. We are not robots, and we there's more to life than the blanket 'rights' of a diverse group in such a tragic situation!
Few are comfortable with abortion at all, Suzy.. I certainly am not and never have been, and am even less comfortable than I was once.. if our societies really got to grips with proper sex education and contraceptive practice far fewer abortions would ever occur... there would always be a need for some, but that is inevitable.. when training, I did a stint at a high school where one girl had just undergone her 3rd abortion in 3 years. She was 15. Her parents refused throughout to allow that girl to attend sex education classes which were not and are not compulsory.. her case is not so unusual if a little more extreme than most.. but properly formulated and good sex education practice does help keep down teen pregnancy, and arguably, although I don't necessarily subscribe to this claim,, even teen sex activity...and by logical extension. does it keep down the rate of abortion...

[tenni]

Regarding the father being involved in the decision whether or not to terminate a pregnancy I do think this is both sensible and advisable in most instances, but no father should have the right of veto. He may if there are grounds have recourse to law, but any veto must be taken within the law and in accord with the best medical advice. I am much less convinced that a father who has abandoned a wife, or partner, or with whom he once had a relationship should have a say, Yet I can see good sense in this sometimes, since many abortions occur because a partnerless woman feels abandoned or alone and proper support from a father, even if he was not a partner, may just tip the balance in her mind of having the child brought to term. But in many instances, a former partner has surrendered all right to be consulted because of his own actions or behaviour, or is due none because of the fact that no real relationship has ever existed other than a quick spot of casual rumpy.... every case is different and in the end must be judged on its merits. But consultation for the most part, yes in principle.. veto.. not in a million years...

Although I essentially believe in the woman's right to control her own body and I have less concern as to how many abortions that she has.
In Canada, abortion has no legislation attached to it at all. It is a medical procedure and a decision made between an woman's doctor and herself. I do not think that a doctor has rejected a woman's request to abort because she has had X abortions previously. I am uncertain if the number of abortions negatively impacts her body but it can not be good for it. Still Canadian doctors and the woman make a decision purely on medical grounds.

I do have some concern about how to resolve the role of the potential father.

Regardless whether there is a relationship between the woman and a man still is mute for me. They both participated in sex and more than not did not expect pregnancy even though there is always the possibility.

I don't think that the father should have complete control over whether the woman has an abortion. I don't think that his behaviour towards the woman should be germain to a decision either. However, should the father genuinely wish to raise the child, it would be good if societies could come to some resolution or guidance to help make that decision to include his wishes. Just as a woman's initial response is more of a shock response when finding out that she is pregnant, the man's immediate response may be negative shock. He may move from that response and consider the complexity. Sadly, many men may initially reject responsibility due to shock. He may not vocalize it but may feel internally. He may vocalize it depending upon the relationship between the man and woman. There is not a lot of time for him to think through the reality of the situation. I do not think that he should have veto over a woman's decision but with counselling there may be a resolution to include his wishes. It would be very complex to determine the sincerity of the man's intent but certainly we as a society should be able to find a way.

I think that the article's basic premise asking men to stand vocally beside the woman is good but it is weak in factoring in the potential father's position. Of course, the article is not written in an enlightened society if it believes that men are controlling the situation. Placing abortion in a position of other than being a medical procedure with the decision being made by the woman and her doctor is the problem to a great extent. Legalizing prevention on moral grounds is the problem here with this article.

[darkeyes]

I don't think that the father should have complete control over whether the woman has an abortion. I don't think that his behaviour towards the woman should be germain to a decision either. However, should the father genuinely wish to raise the child, it would be good if societies could come to some resolution or guidance to help make that decision to include his wishes.

I wasn't aware of the Canadian situation, Tenni.. interesting, because having just looked it up, a termination is allowed at any time throughout gestation right up to actual childbirth which raises in my mind a whole host of ethical questions..

www.abortionincanada.ca/methods/index.html

I may well come back to the rest of ur post in due course.. but for now.. I won't hog the debate..

[tenni]

darkeyes
I suspect that the website that you referenced is from the anti abortionists. The entire question of legality is mute in Canada. The site refers to "legal" abortions. A back bencher of the Conservative party recently tried to get Parliament to discuss definition of human (or something like that) inorder to bring the abortion question back in to the legal realm. The ruling right winged Conservative party did not support his position. He was permitted to speak in Parliament but a Cabinet minister spoke against him. The PM who had promised not to raise this issue during his term remained silent. The Conservatives have a majority and could have easily created a law. They have not so far.

ttp://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/25/pol-abortion-stephen-woodworth-motion.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/mps-have-duty-to-debate-rights-of-unborn-backbench-tory-argues/article543993/

Third term abortion is extremely rare even though it is permitted to be decided by the doctor. I believe that I recall that vast most abortions in Canada happen during the first trimester.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
I suspect that the website that you referenced is from the anti abortionists. The entire question of legality is mute in Canada. The site refers to "legal" abortions. A back bencher of the Conservative party recently tried to get Parliament to discuss definition of human (or something like that) inorder to bring the abortion question back in to the legal realm. The ruling right winged Conservative party did not support his position. He was permitted to speak in Parliament but a Cabinet minister spoke against him. The PM who had promised not to raise this issue during his term remained silent. The Conservatives have a majority and could have easily created a law. They have not so far.

ttp://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/04/25/pol-abortion-stephen-woodworth-motion.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/mps-have-duty-to-debate-rights-of-unborn-backbench-tory-argues/article543993/

Third term abortion is extremely rare even though it is permitted to be decided by the doctor. I believe that I recall that vast most abortions in Canada happen during the first trimester.
oops silly me.. teach me 2 post when time presses...Ur quite right tenni soz.. wrong link..I'm on a diff lap top and cant turn up the right one for some reason.. but once u sort out the wood from the chaff of the 1 posted I don't think as such the link is wrong...just be wary of its overall content.. but wiki is interesting all the same..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Canada and if this isn't the one I had intended to post it is useful just the same..http://prochoice.org/canada/access.html

[bib4u]

When men have a uterus, only then can they make the choice! Until that day, it's ALWAYS the woman's choice, men, your sperm does NOT mean you have a choice..get used to it!

[æonpax]

I can very much relate to your story. My teen-age sweetheart became pregnant. Naturally, it was a real crisis for me at that time. The option of abortion came up. I was adamantly opposed to it, as you were. Second choice was adoption, which I favored and the option both my girlfriend and I leaned toward. After the birth, she begged me, " can we keep him? " I said yes and we decided to marry for the sake of the child. We were opposed by counselors, social workers who told us that, statistically, the deck was stacked against us. Yes, the marriage was short-lived. Halfway through it, I discovered the child was not really mine. The point is however, that I had developed a very deep, profound love for a cute little boy who grew into a handsome, good man. We weren't just father & son...we were buddies. That bond of love will go to my grave with me. After the dissolution of the marriage, I always felt a great sense of relief & peace that I never buckled & gave in to the option of abortion. Had I done so, the world would have been denied the presence of a beautiful human being. So, yes....I was very involved in the decision making process.
`
This happened to me as a minor and I cannot go into details, but being a mom at 13, living apart from everyone whom I used to love....I was pretty much alone. My aunt, helped as best as she could however most often it was just me and my daughter..against the world, so to speak. I formed a bond with her that goes beyond just mother and daughter. I cannot imagine my life without her.

[æonpax]

I hold a similar view, Joan.. once I was in favour of a womans right uncondiitionally, but time observation and knowledge of the world has made me much more ambivalent just as are u. Yet pregnancy carries real risk to life and I can understand the fear, especially in the young or first time mothers of that risk. I have never been pregnant but the thought does scare me and always has. I too am uncomfortable with life style choice but do accept that in some cases, such as already over large families, or where there are already stretched finances that, people feel it necessary. I hate, as Darlin' Darlin' has observed the use of abortion as a form of contraception when really this should not be necessary in this day and age although accepting that no form of contraception is entirely reliable. And to a great extent, regular use, as some women do, of the morning after pill by many, even sometimes by those who are anti abortion and pro life, is a lifestyle abortion for contraceptive purposes...

Regarding the father being involved in the decision whether or not to terminate a pregnancy I do think this is both sensible and advisable in most instances, but no father should have the right of veto. He may if there are grounds have recourse to law, but any veto must be taken within the law and in accord with the best medical advice. I am much less convinced that a father who has abandoned a wife, or partner, or with whom he once had a relationship should have a say, Yet I can see good sense in this sometimes, since many abortions occur because a partnerless woman feels abandoned or alone and proper support from a father, even if he was not a partner, may just tip the balance in her mind of having the child brought to term. But in many instances, a former partner has surrendered all right to be consulted because of his own actions or behaviour, or is due none because of the fact that no real relationship has ever existed other than a quick spot of casual rumpy.... every case is different and in the end must be judged on its merits. But consultation for the most part, yes in principle.. veto.. not in a million years...
`
I’m not going to let ideology or cold logic stand in the way of common sense. I’ve been in abortion clinics. They are not happy places. The staff has always been compassionate and understanding but those there for the procedure had a twitch to their eyes that betrayed an emotional resignation that can only come about by anguish.

In my times at such urban clinics, I only saw one guy there with his mate. Sad to say, I saw many minor girls with their mothers and women of color.

Then there was Tim. Just a guy I used to know…hetero, blue collar worker. He used to have one hell of a sense of humor but that was before…before his ex-girl friend got an abortion without even telling him she was pregnant. It killed him inside. I am not so ridged that I am blind to another’s suffering.

I’ve been at the crossroads of an abortion decision, three times and three times made a choice based on my beliefs, which transcend mere ideology. While it is not easy, single parenting that is, I’d make same decision again, in a breath. But this is me and I have no right to push my beliefs on others.

Still, there is a maxim I’m sometimes reminded of; Just because you have the right to do it does not mean it’s the right thing to do.

As for her father, let's just say he was a married cleric.

[darkeyes]

I am not so insensitive that I do not feel compassion for the suffering of anyone... and I feel for the suffering of any father for the loss of his child.. but not to the extent that I have felt compassion for the agonised suffering of an abandoned fiancee who had gone through the trauma of termination at whose bedside I sat for hours just trying to provide a little comfort for her heartreak, despair,and misery.. for every Tim there is a Paul, who, upon hearing his fiancee was expecting, verbally abused her, battered her, and demanded to know if he was really the father of the child whose heart was beating inside her womb.. my friend too withered and died inside that day and in her despair, rightly or wrongly, took what she felt was the only decision she could and which was best for all.. even now, 11 years later she is not the loving happy go lucky person of once... he is however.. still sews wild oats too by all accounts.. at least two children he never sees and does not wish to and for whom he pays not a penny to their mothers... he felt no remorse, was never traumatised, never beaten.. he never did die inside..

There are tragic, highly emotional tales for both sides of the abortion tragedy, Joan... but no matter how much heartbreak a father may have, and I concede it is awful for many, it cannot be compared to the risk, trauma and emptiness felt by most women who elect a termination, and does not justify his having control of a woman's reproductive capabilities, which is not what you are arguing I know, but it is what many do...

The maxim which u quote is right, but neither is it always the wrong thing to do, which is why the right to do it exists in the first place...

[12voltman59]

My unbridled support for abortion, has nothing to do with morality or any such issues, or about "the sanctity of life"-to me that is a total bullshit argument about this issue--since so much of the way we operate our society--is hardly "prolife"--in fact---it can be argued that our entire way of doing things is pretty much about as anti-life as we could possibly be from the wars we fight, to the way we extract things from the earth for manufacturing the things we use and how we abuse and mistreat the planet and the life forms on it.

My support for complete and total access to abortion and contraceptives is quite simply----a matter of the granting of "essential liberties" and to my mind---if women do not have control and the final say on their reproductive capabilities--then they essentially---have no other rights since so much of a woman's life is affected by her ability to bear children---this is also the basis in why I am foursquare in favor of same-sex marriage----it is an essential liberties issue for "gay" people as well---and their access to same sex marriage is not about granting them any sort of "special rights" but simply extending to them the essential rights due them as full fledged citizens of a "democratic" society as expressed by our culture's foundational documents relating to issues of freedom, liberty and human rights, going back to the Magna Carta, the US Declaration of Independence and the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

[Gearbox]

My unbridled support for abortion, has nothing to do with morality or any such issues, or about "the sanctity of life"-to me that is a total bullshit argument about this issue--since so much of the way we operate our society--is hardly "prolife"--in fact---it can be argued that our entire way of doing things is pretty much about as anti-life as we could possibly be from the wars we fight, to the way we extract things from the earth for manufacturing the things we use and how we abuse and mistreat the planet and the life forms on it.

My support for complete and total access to abortion and contraceptives is quite simply----a matter of the granting of "essential liberties" and to my mind---if women do not have control and the final say on their reproductive capabilities--then they essentially---have no other rights since so much of a woman's life is affected by her ability to bear children---this is also the basis in why I am foursquare in favor of same-sex marriage----it is an essential liberties issue for "gay" people as well---and their access to same sex marriage is not about granting them any sort of "special rights" but simply extending to them the essential rights due them as full fledged citizens of a "democratic" society as expressed by our culture's foundational documents relating to issues of freedom, liberty and human rights, going back to the Magna Carta, the US Declaration of Independence and the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Well yes, throwing the essential liberties of the 'fathers to be' & the unborn Human in the 'liberty bin', would fix all this abortion fiasco. If they have no Human rights, we could all live happily as free equals in a state of liberty etc.
No, not really! There will never be a 'fix all' solution that doesn't also act as an injustice to some group (as far as I can see), as the personal needs of all parties concerned are as variable as the circumstances.
'What's best' for those parties can not be dictated by some document. It's unknown, and down to sheer intuition/gut feeling in most cases, at a time of great stress and pressure.
That's life! It doesn't come with a guidance manual, and putting ALL the responsibility on the shoulders of the pregnant female, while the male whistles Dixie isn't a very good idea IMO.
So, contrary the article's request for males to 'come out' (like the gays did?:rolleyes:) and wash their hands of responsibility, I think they should be coaxed to step up to it.

[void()]

As unlikely as it would be for me to sire children, it is something considered hypothetically. I would hope a lady could take my feelings into consideration. Barring that she could at least know I would be there to support her in the waiting room after having the procedure. I do not like the idea of abortion save for expressly dire circumstances. Adoption is another option I feel merits consideration. But ultimately it is a lady's choice. I'm reminded of an old expression, "a momma brought you into the world, be a momma taking you out."

[pepperjack]

As unlikely as it would be for me to sire children, it is something considered hypothetically. I would hope a lady could take my feelings into consideration. Barring that she could at least know I would be there to support her in the waiting room after having the procedure. I do not like the idea of abortion save for expressly dire circumstances. Adoption is another option I feel merits consideration. But ultimately it is a lady's choice. I'm reminded of an old expression, "a momma brought you into the world, be a momma taking you out."

Kind of connects to another archaic expression, "The hand that rocks the cradle,rules the world."

[biguy71]

While I am staunchly pro-choice, I have never believed that an abortion made anyone's life better. Maybe less bad, but not better. I don't believe that abortion should ever be used as just another form of birth control. I don't believe that laws should be passed to enforce this, but to use it as such, in my opinion, is clearly an abuse of an otherwise legitimate medical procedure. Abortion should be an option for every pregnant woman for a wide variety of reasons. Convenience is not one of those reasons.

[void()]

Kind of connects to another archaic expression, "The hand that rocks the cradle,rules the world."

Yes it does. * void ponders and wanders along whistling a tune about walking through a dark forest *