Well Done Mr Pres

[darkeyes]

Well he has finally come out in favour of same sex marriage.. well done Obama.. doesn't matter much the reasons that u've done it, its the doing that counts.. and in the wake of N Carolina, quite a brave thing 2 do...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/09/barack-obama-supports-gay-marriage

Does put the mockers a bit on the claims that he is a closet Muslim tho methinks...

[falcondfw]

It's a political ploy Dark. He had no choice after Biteme's (I mean Biden's) round of the Sunday talk shows where he was saying how Gay friendly the Pres is. After this weekend and the NC vote, Obama had no choice or he would lose a chunk of his base, especially for donations (the LBGT community here donates pretty heavily to the democrats. Money is power.).
I say it is a ploy, because:

1. Like i said, he wasn't given much choice
2. During the 2008 campaign, he gave an interview (ABC?) where he said he had strong convictions that marriage was between one man and one woman.

[pepperjack]

Well he has finally come out in favour of same sex marriage.. well done Obama.. doesn't matter much the reasons that u've done it, its the doing that counts.. and in the wake of N Carolina, quite a brave thing 2 do...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/09/barack-obama-supports-gay-marriage

Does put the mockers a bit on the claims that he is a closet Muslim tho methinks...

Can't believe you actually fell for this disingenuous political doublespeak.:rolleyes: Where's your feminine intuition, your sense of discernment?

[Gearbox]

If he was so up for equality for ALL, he wouldn't need to be FORCED to speak 'his mind' about how lovely it is to have LGBT in the forces etc and how monogamous they can be, and how they deserve to be recognised as married couples if they want to.
Well that being said, at the very least he has made history now, and it can't be unsaid. Allah will be very pleased.:tongue:

[darkeyes]

Don't think me so naive I have no idea why he did it.. I have already intimated as much if u care to read what i said.. my point is that the cat is out of the bag and now that it is, for him to back peddle now would be more dangerous to him than standing his ground. Biden would never have said what he said had he not had some inkling of Obama's position, and it may well be that he has forced Obama to speak..He is a politician, a breed I have very little time for.. and I have even less time for powerful ones... don't underestimate the importance of what he has done.. what both he and Biden have done.. .however much u are suspicious of the motives...

In 2008, falcon hun, I had different views on many things to those I hold now, and in 2004, many different views to them.. as you did yourself no doubt.. as just about every human being on the planet have.. we evolve our opinions and views as we experience life... sometimes very quickly.. we may be suspicious of powerful elected people changing their views, but it is sometimes heart felt.... they are human beings too... even if sometimes they do give us much reason to doubt it...

[falcondfw]

Don't think me so naive I have no idea why he did it.. I have already intimated as much if u care to read what i said.. my point is that the cat is out of the bag and now that it is, for him to back peddle now would be more dangerous to him than standing his ground. Biden would never have said what he said had he not had some inkling of Obama's position, and it may well be that he has forced Obama to speak..He is a politician, a breed I have very little time for.. and I have even less time for powerful ones... don't underestimate the importance of what he has done.. what both he and Biden have done.. .however much u are suspicious of the motives...

In 2008, falcon hun, I had different views on many things to those I hold now, and in 2004, many different views to them.. as you did yourself no doubt.. as just about every human being on the planet have.. we evolve our opinions and views as we experience life... sometimes very quickly.. we may be suspicious of powerful elected people changing their views, but it is sometimes heart felt.... they are human beings too... even if sometimes they do give us much reason to doubt it...

Well, you are right, Biden and everyone else knew how Obama felt on the subject. But Obama would never own up to it. In 2010, he said his opinions on gay rights were "evolving". Too cute in my opinion. Most people have had longstanding opinions on the subject, whether those opinions were voiced or not.
Do opinions change? Sure. But i think the timing is a little too cute on this one.
Mama once told me "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and acts like a duck, once in a blue moon, it's a goose in disguise. Other than that, it's Duck A L'Orange FOR EVERYONE!!!". lol.

[darkeyes]

Well, you are right, Biden and everyone else knew how Obama felt on the subject. But Obama would never own up to it. In 2010, he said his opinions on gay rights were "evolving". Too cute in my opinion. Most people have had longstanding opinions on the subject, whether those opinions were voiced or not.
Do opinions change? Sure. But i think the timing is a little too cute on this one.
Mama once told me "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and acts like a duck, once in a blue moon, it's a goose in disguise. Other than that, it's Duck A L'Orange FOR EVERYONE!!!". lol.
*laffs*..ye of little faith falcon...;):bigrin:

[DuckiesDarling]

Thing is... he has done a lot of LGBT and is realizing it wasn't enough. Political play or not... at least he did it. The fact Romney immediately came out and slammed him for it is pretty telling. They have drawn the line and the election should be interesting. Wonder how many Republicans will cross politcal lines to show support for everyone's right to be married?

[falcondfw]

*laffs*..ye of little faith falcon...;):bigrin:

Somehow, I know that was sarcasm. lol. You really expect me to have faith in Politicians???? It is to laugh. Ha. Ha. HaHa. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

[falcondfw]

Thing is... he has done a lot of LGBT and is realizing it wasn't enough. Political play or not... at least he did it. The fact Romney immediately came out and slammed him for it is pretty telling. They have drawn the line and the election should be interesting. Wonder how many Republicans will cross politcal lines to show support for everyone's right to be married?

If we had a different Democrat in the office, one who's agenda was not littered with government run health care, 8+% unemployment, $4 and $5 per gallon gas, waivers from Obamacare for those who contribute the most to his campaign, fast & furious, solyndra, taking credit for Bin Laden's killing as if he pulled the trigger himself, etc. etc. probably a lot more would cross over.

But when we have a President as divisive and as destructive to the American way of life as this one? Not many.

[innaminka]

It's done.
It's on the record.

yes there will be an electoral backlash - but that will occure in those states he was never going to win anyway - the South - the Mid-West.
It will resonate in the "blue states" - but as always - the election will revolve around Ohio, Penn and Florida.

But isn't it refreshing to see a leader commit rather than always fudging.

[darkeyes]

If we had a different Democrat in the office, one who's agenda was not littered with government run health care, 8+% unemployment, $4 and $5 per gallon gas, waivers from Obamacare for those who contribute the most to his campaign, fast & furious, solyndra, taking credit for Bin Laden's killing as if he pulled the trigger himself, etc. etc. probably a lot more would cross over.

But when we have a President as divisive and as destructive to the American way of life as this one? Not many.
I wonder just how right u are in that statement falcon babes.. I wonder just who is the divisive force in US politics? I suspect there are at least as many Americans attach the accusation of divisiveness to quite another camp..

[falcondfw]

It's done.
It's on the record.

yes there will be an electoral backlash - but that will occure in those states he was never going to win anyway - the South - the Mid-West.
It will resonate in the "blue states" - but as always - the election will revolve around Ohio, Penn and Florida.

But isn't it refreshing to see a leader commit rather than always fudging.

I would give him credit for not fudging ... if he had not fudged for 3.5 years.

[falcondfw]

I wonder just how right u are in that statement falcon babes.. I wonder just who is the divisive force in US politics? I suspect there are at least as many Americans attach the accusation of divisiveness to quite another camp..

I am not talking politically divisive. One thing I will give Obama credit for (most of the time. not on LGBT issues) is he is true to his leftist agenda. He may do it in a sneaky manner much of the time (having the EPA do your dirty work in the name of the environment, for example), but he is a true left/socialist.
I am talking about racially and economically divisive. How often does he or his minions play the race card? And how is it that if you question Eric Holder, it is because you are racist? Economically, who was it who made popular the 99% vs. the 1% stuff? That's not divisive?

[Dapper_Fellow]

It's nice that he said he supports marriage equality, but I'd be a lot more impressed if he signed that Executive Order that bans employment and housing discrimination against LGBT citizens.

[void()]

" ... I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married ..."-- Transcript from televised interview on ABC quoting (http://news.yahoo.com/obama-announces-his-support-for-same-sex-marriage.html) POTUS

Emphasis added for clarity. He is not saying it professionally. And yes there can be a rather large dissonance betwixt personal and professional. He is also only thinking it, which equates to him saying in his personal opinion he sees no reason for prohibiting same sex marriage.

Further respect for him as a person, would engender far more if it were professional, instead of merely personal. I can have a personal opinion that war is bad all I desire. My employer pays me to manufacture bullets so, professionally, I'm good to go for any war. Why not schedule six more this week?

Comprehend my point?

[falcondfw]

Emphasis added for clarity. He is not saying it professionally. And yes there can be a rather large dissonance betwixt personal and professional. He is also only thinking it, which equates to him saying in his personal opinion he sees no reason for prohibiting same sex marriage.

Further respect for him as a person but he would engender far more if it were professional, instead of merely personal. I can have a personal opinion that war is bad all I desire. My employer pays me to manufacture bullets so, professionally I'm good to go for any war, why not schedule six more this week?

Comprehend my point?

I understand your point void. But whether he is saying it personally or professionally, it will still carry a lot of weight with the citizenry, if it is sincere. Which I don't think it is.

[void()]

I understand your point void. But whether he is saying it personally or professionally, it will still carry a lot of weight with the citizenry, if it is sincere. Which I don't think it is.

He is a politician, check. His lips moved, check. There used to be a third, or so I thought. Oh well, two out three still waddles like a duck. In plainer words, agree with you abut sincerity, especially due to it not being said professionally nor posited whilst enacting equality.

Recalled the third. (void dons his George Carlin voice) "It's all fucking bullshit!"

[darkeyes]

I am not talking politically divisive. One thing I will give Obama credit for (most of the time. not on LGBT issues) is he is true to his leftist agenda. He may do it in a sneaky manner much of the time (having the EPA do your dirty work in the name of the environment, for example), but he is a true left/socialist.
I am talking about racially and economically divisive. How often does he or his minions play the race card? And how is it that if you question Eric Holder, it is because you are racist? Economically, who was it who made popular the 99% vs. the 1% stuff? That's not divisive?
He is far from being socialist, but we've had that argument.. I have no great love or time for Obama, and never believed he was quite the great saviour, but the alternative scares the life out of me.. as would any opposition and potential national leadership which concentrates so much on sex and sexual bigotry to achieve power and uses "Gaaaad" so freely and so hypocritically... and which has not one whit of an idea how to deal with the pressing problems of our world except more corporate greed, xenophobia, Islamophobia and contempt for humanity and our world in the name of personal and national aggrandisement at the expense of the impoverishment of ordinary people...

[æonpax]

Well he has finally come out in favour of same sex marriage.. well done Obama.. doesn't matter much the reasons that u've done it, its the doing that counts.. and in the wake of N Carolina, quite a brave thing 2 do...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/may/09/barack-obama-supports-gay-marriage
Does put the mockers a bit on the claims that he is a closet Muslim tho methinks...

Fran,

While I may be a liberal, I am will not blindly vote Democratic and am not a fan of President Obama. I believe all politicians are liars, thieves and self-serving, in varying degrees and there is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans except for decorations. Both parties drink from the same money trough and both are beholden to the Corporations. Now Obama happens to be a very good puppet for the corps. He is a good speaker and has not made many mistakes or faux paus that would make him truly unelectable. In a would full of political criminals, one has to vote for the person that will do the least damage to their country.

I will say that Barack's lackluster and limp endorsement of same sex marriage scored a technical home run in so far that he has "gained back" points from some liberals (like me) who have become increasing fed-up with his anti-freedom, anti-civil liberty and war hawk policies he has endorsed.

However, I am an American before I am Gay. As much as I advocate same sex marriage, his mediocre endorsement was just a political stunt and does not make up for mistakes (I listed 24) that he has made, worst being his refusal to prosecute George W. Bush for his crimes against the Constitution and crimes against humanity.

[darkeyes]

Fran,

While I may be a liberal, I am will not blindly vote Democratic and am not a fan of President Obama. I believe all politicians are liars, thieves and self-serving, in varying degrees and there is no difference between the Democrats and Republicans except for decorations. Both parties drink from the same money trough and both are beholden to the Corporations. Now Obama happens to be a very good puppet for the corps. He is a good speaker and has not made many mistakes or faux paus that would make him truly unelectable. In a would full of political criminals, one has to vote for the person that will do the least damage to their country.

I will say that Barack's lackluster and limp endorsement of same sex marriage scored a technical home run in so far that he has "gained back" points from some liberals (like me) who have become increasing fed-up with his anti-freedom, anti-civil liberty and war hawk policies he has endorsed.

However, I am an American before I am Gay. As much as I advocate same sex marriage, his mediocre endorsement was just a political stunt and does not make up for mistakes (I listed 24) that he has made, worst being his refusal to prosecute George W. Bush for his crimes against the Constitution and crimes against humanity.
I don't demur from that, Joan.. I have no illusions about Obama... but I am no great lover of country in the sense others are,, if I may I would adapt your statement about country to say people for it is people I care for more than ever country... and about that I have even fewer illusions of his opponent and his opponent's party.. I am a human being before I am ever gay and certainly before I am British or Scottish..and that dictates my conscience before all...

[falcondfw]

He is far from being socialist, but we've had that argument.. I have no great love or time for Obama, and never believed he was quite the great saviour, but the alternative scares the life out of me.. as would any opposition and potential national leadership which concentrates so much on sex and sexual bigotry to achieve power and uses "Gaaaad" so freely and so hypocritically... and which has not one whit of an idea how to deal with the pressing problems of our world except more corporate greed, xenophobia, Islamophobia and contempt for humanity and our world in the name of personal and national aggrandisement at the expense of the impoverishment of ordinary people...

Ok. well,we both agree that where you and I stand in our economic philosophies is a complete 180 from each other. I don't want this country to end up like Greece, Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and a few others that are somewhat close to those states. I believe conservative economics is the way to prevent that. You believe the opposite is the way to prevent that. No problem there. We just disagree.

But the other things you say go way overboard.

More corporate greed? Would there be some? Inevitably. Capitalism is no different than communism in the fact that both rely on humans to work and there are good humans and bad humans in both systems. That is the only way they are similar. The difference is, in your socialist system, the greedy ones who get wealthy are in the government. In my system, they are at the top of the business world. I would rather try to punish individual bad citizens, than to try to punish the ones at the top of a government -much easier to catch and punish the bad individual.

Xenophobia? Seriously? Have you read any conservative philosophy papers from the USA?? We love immigration and foreigners. It is one of the primary things that keeps new and innovative idea flowing into the economy for the business sector to create jobs. That being said, we hate ILLEGAL immigration. It is not fair to those who have gone through the process the right way or to citizens to have illegals "jump the queue". Illegals need to be found, deported to their home country, and go through the immigration process the PROPER and LEGAL way. That is all we are saying.

Islamaphobia? You have got to be kidding me! Does September 11, 2001 ring a bell???? Hmmmm. And who were the evil bastards who caused that terrible day??? That's right. Islamic Extremists. Notice I said - EXTREMISTS. Don't you think we kinda have a right to be Islamically paranoid when 3000 innocent people are attacked and vaporized by these kinds of people (and it could have been a lot more lives lost)? I think we do. I think any country would have that right. But did we get Islamaphobic? Hell no. Did we round up every practicer of Islam in this country and deport them? No. THAT would be Islamaphobic. Did we round up every muslim in the USA of middle eastern decent and put them in internment camps? No. Again, THAT would be Islamaphobic. We merely went out and got the BASTARDS that planned and executed 9/11. THAT is NOT Islamaphobia. That is called ... wait for it ... JUSTICE!

[darkeyes]

Falcon hun, We deviate from the thread but what the hell..I have no idea where u got the idea what u say about socialism is "my" socialist system... it certainly isn't anything like Marx or Engels envisaged and even less so me.. what passed as "socialist" system in the past were top down corporate systems.. think outside the box hun... socialism is not bout top down but bottom up. with checks and balances to prevent corporate greed far more stringent than anything u envisage.. it is a complete overhaul of anything ever attempted and a complete democratisation of society at all levels... government becomes truly government of the people by the people for the people.. Obama would fight that every bit as hard as any Republican... the difference between Obama and any republican is the emphasis of a less harsh and oppressive society within the present system.. u do have a point about freedom restrictions I accept but compared to freedom restrictions parties of the right impose they are child's play.. but I have no more love of most of them than any of the more harsh restrictions for instance parties of the right in my own country have ever imposed.. and it is historically parties of the left which have presided on the granting of freedoms rather than their removal far more than their riight wing opponents.. parties of the right are not called "conservatives" for nothing... and it is not about conserving the way of life of most ordinary people but the power, privilege and wealth of the few at their expense..

Xenophobia is about more than immigration... u are right that every country needs immigration to prosper.. the degree to which it is encouraged and allowed is arguable, but in principle u and I agree on that.. however, parties of the right may agree or may not (they do not always) but it is parties of the right far more than parties of the left which stir up anti immigration feeling.. anti immigration of any kind...they appeal to the base instinct of the less well off and less well educated.. xenophobia also reveals itself in American foreign policy and in American military adventure... always fight a war well away from the homeland and stir up the people to ensure that whether or not a threat from overseas is real or imagined they believe it to be real.. and when things go wrong.. well that too stirs up the pot of xenophobia very nicely.. which of course brings us very nicely to Islamophobia....

...obtaining justice does not involve having two wars, one of which was fought against a nation and a tyrant who hated the perpetrator of 9/11 every bit as much as did the US... and stirring the pot of religious hatred.. u may think it does but I'm afraid I do not.. neither does it in my opinion involve the (deliberate and always intended in my view) killing of the alleged leader of the group that perpetrated that atrocity or of the judging of that individual and the group he led without due process... justice involves far more than retribution.. as a pacifist and one who treasures life as the greatest of gifts, I have never believed in killing other human beings whatever the reason... not even after due process but certainly not without it... Obama may a shit.. I do believe him certainly to be no saint, and certainly not a man and politician I like too much, but compared to the alternative, he is the less worse of two evils..

We can go round the houses all u like and make statements of belief as much as u like.. that becomes sterile and certainly it is sterile on a thread where we are talking of one aspect of a man's philosophy. No doubt in the coming months there will be more opportunities to debate more wide ranging topics and I will be glad to do so.. but not now whther or not u respond... for now however watery and however dubious his statement about same sex marriage.. I am glad it has been made and whether we like it or not it is an important statement for a president to make... gay and bisexual (and the transgendered) people will decide why they vote for who they vote for... I have always argued there are far more important issues facing us than same sex marriage and even the fight for lgbt rights and equality... and I still believe that.. but people of the lgbt have to seriously consider whether or not they are a turkey voting for xmas... I believe that for this coming electon is something they will have to seriously bear in mind far more than in the past because of the hysteria surrounding it...

[æonpax]

I don't demur from that, Joan.. I have no illusions about Obama... but I am no great lover of country in the sense others are,, if I may I would adapt your statement about country to say people for it is people I care for more than ever country... and about that I have even fewer illusions of his opponent and his opponent's party.. I am a human being before I am ever gay and certainly before I am British or Scottish..and that dictates my conscience before all...

Well, I am American and love my country BUT am not do not blindly support the political machinery behind it. Gilbert K. Chesterson once said; "My country right or wrong, is like saying, my mother, drunk or sober."

Just to clear up one thing through, my objections to President Obama are political. Groups like the birthers, teabaggers and whatever have you, suffer from ODS or Obama Derangement Syndrome. It's highly infections and has already spread into the Gay community, to wit;



Gay Republicans Offended That Obama Supports Gay Marriage. Seriously. - (Washington, DC) – Log Cabin Republicans respond to President Barack Obama’s latest evolution on the freedom to marry. “That the president has chosen today, when LGBT Americans are mourning the passage of Amendment One, to finally speak up for marriage equality is offensive and callous,” said R. Clarke Cooper, Log Cabin Republicans Executive Director.... ( Source - http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/05/09/gay-republicans-offended-that-obama-supports-gay-marriage-seriously/ )


Even though his support same sex marriage is feeble and politically motivated, it still sends a power message and is going to ignite this country, for better or worse. Expect the far religious right and their political sycophants to come out swinging against this. I'd like to believe this would include "spirited debate" but judging from the tone and views I've seen by a few, in this very forum, I wouldn't hold my breath. As the article poignantly illustrates, with some people, personal agenda's such as politics and ideologies trump LGBT concerns.
`


http://i.imgur.com/dDtZR.jpg

[darkeyes]

Well, I am American and love my country BUT am not do not blindly support the political machinery behind it. Gilbert K. Chesterson once said; "My country right or wrong, is like saying, my mother, drunk or sober."




My mum is here for tea.. she reminded me of something my Grandad used to say.. to support one's country when wrong is like handing Jack the Ripper the knife..

[DuckiesDarling]

The bottom line is no matter what the polls show regarding people's attitudes... the rights of a minority have never been upheld by the popular vote of the majority. 34 times similiar things have come up and only once in Arizona was it defeated...Arizona later recanted and made it illegal to be married there if you are a same sex couple. This is one of those things it's gonna have to be fought state by state.. gee what ever happened to United we stand?

[Dapper_Fellow]

I'm incredibly surprised that marriage equality is the flagship issue for LGBT rights, when employment/housing discrimination affects more of us and in more ways.

I'm similarly suprised that I am the only person here pointing out Obama's incongruency between speech and action given his refusal to sign the Executive Order banning housing/employment discrimination.

[falcondfw]

" but it is parties of the right far more than parties of the left which stir up anti immigration feeling.. anti immigration of any kind...they appeal to the base instinct of the less well off and less well educated.."

Fran, I strongly disagree with your statement that the right stirs up anti-immigration feeling more than the left.

The actual fact is it is the mainstream (I call them lamestream) media (ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN, MSNBC) that stirs up the most anti-immigrant feeling by mis-quoting or taking quotes out of context from the right at the direction of the ultra-liberals that control them and at the direction of the White House.

"xenophobia also reveals itself in American foreign policy and in American military adventure"

How? The only wars we are fighting are against the taliban and the Islamic Extremists, like Al-Qaeda. Would you have us just turn the other cheek from 9/11 and say "oh. We're sure you meant well."?

"...obtaining justice does not involve having two wars, one of which was fought against a nation and a tyrant who hated the perpetrator of 9/11 every bit as much as did the US."

Seriously?? I BEG of you to show me the deeds that proved Saddam Hussein hated terrorism, Al-Qaeda, and their ilk, because I can show you a ton of evidence that shows he SUPPORTED global terrorism.

"neither does it in my opinion involve the (deliberate and always intended in my view) killing of the alleged leader of the group that perpetrated that atrocity or of the judging of that individual and the group he led without due process... justice involves far more than retribution"

It doesn't? What would you have us do? Kiss him on the cheek, wag our finger in his face, and say "Naughty, Naughty! BAD Osama! Bad Osama!"? What due process did he give to those he declared as waging a war against Islam? The People in the Twin Towers? The people who dies outside of Shankesville? Fran, sometimes, there are just BAD, HATE-FILLED people in the world. Not many. But a few. Enough. They don't understand mercy, rehabilitation, or fellow-feeling. They just need to be eliminated when they do something so haenous. Hitler was one such person. Bin Laden is another. I know we will never agree on this point. But that is the way I feel. I came DAMN close to losing relatives and friends on that day. I have stood at the top of the tower that had the observation deck several times. Is America perfect? Hell no. But nobody, not even a combatant, deserves what happened to those people on that day. I stared stunned at the TV as a place i knew and loved crumbled to the ground and innocent people, and I mean TOTALLY innocent, died for no f'ing reason. None at all. As my (then) wife and I waited in the doctor's office for a visit to make sure that the everything was ok with the son that we would bring into this insane world in just 2 months time. The raw emotion still RIPS through me as I type this. Do I want revenge? HELL YES! On every one of those stinkin aholes that think like those bastards did that day. But more than that. I want justice. Justice for all of those 3000 lives lost and for every one of our soldiers who have died or been injured in those two places protecting us. Mostly, I want safety. I want to know my sons will never have to worry about a thing like that happening to them. Or to being blown up in a mall (my ex is from the Philippines and the kids visit there to see relatives). I don't want them to have to worry that they will go to their JOB one day, as a computer programmer, or musician, or veterinarian, or whatever and have to worry that four idiots are going to hijack a plane of innocents, crash it into their building of innocents, and burn them up alive in a fireball that could only be created in hell. Sorry. I know I am rambling. But i don't care. This is a very painful and raw subject for me. And for you to suggest that we take the "peaceful approach" just makes my blood absolutely boil. I would say more about this, but I don't want to say something I might regret and that you don't deserve. I respect many of your other opinions too much for that. But on this subject ... well, nevermind.

" but compared to the alternative, he is the less worse of two evils.."

You have to be joking about this. Please, tell me you are. Compared to what alternative? Satan himself? The world is well rid of both Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden. Both killed innocent people without provocation. Ask the Kurds how benevolent Saddam Hussein was. You really need to think these statements through before you make them. Hussein GASSED 35,000 Kurds between Iraq and Turkey when he was leader of Iraq. The man is no less guilty of Genocide than Slobodan Milosovec or Hitler. Bin Laden has killed thousands of people around the world by planning attacks on civilians and then cowardly having other people execute those plans when he knows they will die doing it. That is not a leader or someone to be respected. That is a coward and a bully. And bullies need to get their asses kicked to be taught respect. Period.

"whether we like it or not it is an important statement for a president to make... gay and bisexual (and the transgendered) people will decide why they vote for who they vote for... I have always argued there are far more important issues facing us than same sex marriage and even the fight for lgbt rights and equality... and I still believe that.. but people of the lgbt have to seriously consider whether or not they are a turkey voting for xmas..."

TOTALLY agree with this statement. ALL of it. IF his statement was sincere, I owe him an apology, am glad to give one, and he made an historically important statement. And there are FAAAARRRR more important things at stake in this election. With the direction the economies of the world are going, there may not be any countries or governments to worry about LGBT rights in 5 or 10 years. That slide needs to be halted, before ANYTHING of substance can be done throughout the world about LGBT rights. I hope and pray the various countries around the world make the right decisions in all their upcoming and recently passed elections. If we don't ... not a pretty picture.


P.S. DAMN FRAN!!! You REALLY know how to get a guy worked up!!!!

[falcondfw]

The bottom line is no matter what the polls show regarding people's attitudes... the rights of a minority have never been upheld by the popular vote of the majority. 34 times similiar things have come up and only once in Arizona was it defeated...Arizona later recanted and made it illegal to be married there if you are a same sex couple. This is one of those things it's gonna have to be fought state by state.. gee what ever happened to United we stand?

DD.
Marriage is a state's rights issue, not federal. Each state issues its own requirements for obtaining a marriage license, fees, etc. That is why the Gay Marriage issue will have to be fought on a state by state basis.

[darkeyes]

P.S. DAMN FRAN!!! You REALLY know how to get a guy worked up!!!!
Trust me Falcon.. was always very good at that:tongue:.. one way or t'otha!!:bigrin: Still am in one way... even t'otha.. just they don't get t'otha 2 go wiv t'otha.. not any more...;) :kiss:

[falcondfw]

I'm incredibly surprised that marriage equality is the flagship issue for LGBT rights, when employment/housing discrimination affects more of us and in more ways.

I'm similarly suprised that I am the only person here pointing out Obama's incongruency between speech and action given his refusal to sign the Executive Order banning housing/employment discrimination.

Dapper,
You are not the only one questioning Obama's motives in this. There are a TON of people doing the same. Not just Tea Party people. Even some Democrats. Why didn't he come right out and endorse it? Why did he stress that it is a PERSONAL opinion? These and other questions are being asked by people all along the political spectrum.

I agree that employment/housing discrimination should be a much stronger concern, but honestly, I have not seen much of that kind of discrimination (and I am someone who is ALWAYS looking for a new job because I am a contract programmer). Now, myself and others I know don't actually go in to the employer and apply for a job saying things at the top of our lungs like "Ok. This GAY(or bisexual) person filled out your silly application. Now WHEN did you want to interview this GAY person?". lol.

[falcondfw]

Trust me Falcon.. was always very good at that:tongue:.. one way or t'otha!!:bigrin: Still am in one way... even t'otha.. just they don't get t'otha 2 go wiv t'otha.. not any more...;) :kiss:

Honey, sometimes you just confuse the HELL out of me!!!! lol. But I do understand the meaning. lol.

[darkeyes]

I'm incredibly surprised that marriage equality is the flagship issue for LGBT rights, when employment/housing discrimination affects more of us and in more ways.

I'm similarly suprised that I am the only person here pointing out Obama's incongruency between speech and action given his refusal to sign the Executive Order banning housing/employment discrimination.
This is an interesting point and must admit to knowing very little of it... but I put it to you to think on this dapper.. if same sex marriage can be conquered, even although in some ways it can be considered in many ways less practically important than work or housing, such is its concept burnt into the psyche of human beings, and its symbolic importance to them as a sign of commitment to love of partner, that if it can be won, the obstacles to these other in some ways more important issues of keeping life and limb together, and provision of shelter and warmth will fall as autumn leaves from a tree in the breeze.. there is no greater symbol of our cause than the right to love, commit to and unite with the partner of our choice than to have the same right as all heterosexual people which is in part, even more than their opposition to civil unions, why so many of the prejudiced and intolerant oppose our cause... the right to marry, Once that is achieved, all we still strive for and wish for becomes that little easier...

[darkeyes]

Honey, sometimes you just confuse the HELL out of me!!!! lol. But I do understand the meaning. lol.
May think ur a bit of a silly bugger falcon, but have never thoughtya stupid!!;) ... and that btw the way was always 1 of me fave past-times... confusin' guys... actually still is... tee hee...:bigrin:

[æonpax]

I'm incredibly surprised that marriage equality is the flagship issue for LGBT rights, when employment/housing discrimination affects more of us and in more ways.

I'm similarly suprised that I am the only person here pointing out Obama's incongruency between speech and action given his refusal to sign the Executive Order banning housing/employment discrimination.
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That's becuase it really isn't that much of a over-riding problem anymore. While the federal government has been dragging it's feet in mandating sexual orientation discrimination based on housing and employment, the states and many major urban municipalites have enacted laws protecting gays in both employment and housing.

Here is another factor to consider, many employers and municipalities are offering same sex benefits in order to attract qualified gay applicants.

The problem with "Executive Orders" is that they are easily negated or overturned by the next presidential administration. For example, President Obama ended George W. Bush's "EO" in regards to the federal roadblocks involving stem cell research....as Bush also ended many of Clinton's "EO's", et al.

[Realist]

I saw a bumper sticker yesterday that read: "A taxpayer voting for Obama is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders"

[jamieknyc]

One thing that is not necessarily obvious to the non-US posters: Obama has no power to actually implement same-sex marriage, except maybe in the District of Columbia. Marriage laws, same-sex or opposite-sex, are a matter of state law.

[darkeyes]

Depends howya look at it Cowboy really dusnt it? Do peeps listen more peacefully, happily an accept the music an' sounds made by the rather dodgy lookin' organ grinder and 'is tame pet monkey or 2 the wild uncontrollable, unpredictable 1 screamin' blue murder an potentially wreaking mayhem on ther lives cos they dunno wot 'e is gonna come up wiv next???