My convo with a gay leader tonight -- for your thoughts/reactions

[JohnnyV]

Dear all,

In the wake of the Advocate's provocative cover story, "Is 'Gay' Over?", I took the plunge today and asked to meet with a prominent leader in the gay activist community. I wanted to discuss the growing sense, in many corners, that bisexuality is going to enter into public discussion about sexual orientation -- and I wanted to encourage him to be welcoming to it.

This person is actually a friend of mine from six years back. He is close to me, and supportive of my family life. So I was surprised -- no, shocked -- to hear what he really thought about bisexuals.

In a nutshell, he believes that the gay community has to shut bisexuals out completely from their ranks, in order to make any political progress. He said, "there is no time to appease Uncle Toms in the aftermath of Matthew Shepard. Those who aren't willing to sacrifice themselves for the cause, cannot be trusted."

I said, half jokingly, that his intensity resembled that of someone running a cult, a terrorist training camp, or a Nazi beer putz of the 1920s. "Are you a fascist?" I asked. He said without irony, "yes, but I am a fascist for gay rights." This astounded me, coming from someone widely admired in progressive circles in the city where I live.

It took me a while to recover from his unexpected reaction, but I was glad that he finally came out and said what was on his mind. I suspect it is the same thing that many gay leaders think but won't say to our faces.

I gave him the usual justifications that we bisexuals give, in such contexts, but he told me flat out that (1) he will not believe any study that suggests that bisexuality is a real sexual orientation, (2) "pure" gays have enough numbers to accomplish their goals and therefore have no need of courting bisexuals, and (3) straight allies in the struggle against homophobia are more comfortable with gays than with bisexuals anyway, so gays have the power and right to exclude bisexuals.

I asked him if he thought that bisexuals who supported all his political goals were in any way useful for him. He said no. The fact that "bisexuals create doubt in the minds of gay men and encourage assimilationist approaches" meant that bisexuals were not only unnecessary, but even a liability to be shunned.

When I pleaded with him to advocate for more bi-positive rhetoric in the gay activist community in town, he even told me, "no bisexual has ever made the sacrifices or taken the risks that gay people took, to get the few advancements we have gotten. Therefore they [bisexuals] cannot suddenly ask a movement to adapt to their needs, when they haven't contributed to the movement at all."

How, I asked, could he have been such a close friend without ever telling me that he felt these things?

He told me, simply, that he had never viewed me or my life as related to his struggle at all. It was only because I had tried to involve myself in his gay politics that he felt obliged to come clean about his beliefs.

This conversation lasted two and a half hours and got nowhere. I realized that I had to cut loose. Because most of my male friends are gay, I had grown accustomed to these painful moments of alienation. But this was more than I could bear. I came home and felt an all-consuming gloom fall over me. Not only did I feel like I didn't know someone close to me at all; I also wondered if we ever know what people are capable of.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions about how to overcome impasses like this one (I do want to try to overcome it rather than leave it fester) I would be very grateful.

Love,
J

[JrzGuy3]

With all due respect your friend, if not actually a deusch in real life, sure is good at coming off as one.

As for winning people over, I think that most of the time it won't happen.

Let's look at the gay (used inclusively)/straight macrocosm. There is definitely a line which separates people into two groups. Acceptance is not something I think many people are wishy washy on, and those who are deep down inside harbor feelings that would allow them lumped into either category. For example, I think people who say "It's ok if they just keep it away from me" are generally not accepting of us. Yes, there are a few cases someone can cross the line, such as a homophobic parent's love for a gay/lesbian/bi/trans child overcoming their hate. For the record, that's the only case I've thought of if anyone else can give me another, shoot. Anyhoo, I'm apt to take a stance of you're either for us ("us" still being the gay community inclusively) or against us, regardless of whether or not you're actually saying it, and I think people are gonna keep to their sides pretty much forever.

I think the same thing can be applied to the gay-bi microcosm. Whether bisexuals are by numbers a majority or minority, I'd say that we are definitely the political minority. We're still in a state of, the (again, inclusive) gay community consists of gays, lesbians and "other." I think that a divide exists. On one side, you have those who "get it" that sexuality is fluid and multichotomous rather than rigid and binary. On the other side, you have those who don't. I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.

Our day will come. But we need to take it for ourselves rather than wait around for them to give it to us.

[wellred]

Hello Johnny,

Thank you very much for sharing this posting. You went into this conversation with a very clear ideal as to the desired outcome; and, obviously, feel rejected and set-back by the outcome.

You may not like what I am about to say; however, you have struck a nerve with me and I want to share my thoughts anyway. This level of honesty is rarely found and its sharpness certainly causes one to pause. Your friend is clearly saying that he is at war and you (bisexuals) are not welcome in his battle. His pragmatic approach leaves little ambiguity about where he stands. He has a definite belief set, to which it sounds as if he has given tremendous and careful thought. From his point of view, he clearly knows the "soldiers" and "weapons" that will best serve his targeted win.

I can see how he may conclude that the lesser known classification of "bisexual", with its slippery boundaries, may blur the intensity of his political message. We (bi's) seem to be a complicated bunch and, as you have noted, we have not historically had a united voice (such as hetros and gays have had). If this is a black or white issue, we (bisexuals) seems to be multiple shades of gray.

Remember this is his framework for war -- one powerful man's point of view. Yet, he is one man. Many may share his position. Other gays may not. (I know some people who identify themselves as gay, who carry much different political views than your friend.)

I am sorry for your discomfort. When I am in similar painful situations, I focus on reminding myself that I cannot change the other persons opinion, at least directly. Francis Bacon said: "All progress is made by a circular route". Two suggested courses of action are:

1) Be the best that you can be -- advocate for human rights using your own style and your unique gift of inclusiveness. Campaigns work best when there are multiple approaches of intervention. You can progress fully on your own terms. Who knows, one day, he may see you through different eyes. You may impress him and he may want to be included in your camp.

2) Work on gaining influence over those people to whom your friend listens. When lobbying politicians, we ask: "Who does he listen to?" In more than one case, the answer is: "his mother". Amazing what powers of persuasion lay in waiting in unexpected places.

And good for you for all that you are doing to raise awareness and change the persuasion of others! I humbly thank you. Be gentle with yourself and be gentle in your thoughts about your friend. Each of us have our own place in history.

With Love and Light,
Red

[Polybear]

"When I pleaded with him to advocate for more bi-positive rhetoric in the gay activist community in town, he even told me, "no bisexual has ever made the sacrifices or taken the risks that gay people took, to get the few advancements we have gotten. Therefore they [bisexuals] cannot suddenly ask a movement to adapt to their needs, when they haven't contributed to the movement at all."



I'm sorry that you had to endure this kind of attitude from him. Perhaps he needs to study history a little more -- to look back at some of the bisexuals, trans people and drag queens who were part of Stonewall and who helped to lay the foundation for the modern LGBT movements.

I could only add that I have observed some community meetings in Toronto where I saw a few gay men who thought that the queer community started and ended with them. Their version of what was a real community didn't include other gay men outside of a certain age group. No lesbians. No bisexuals. No transmen and no transwomen. These were meetings where there was inclusion around them, where my bisexual self was comfortable to be there, but absolutely no inclusion amongst them.

[Itsjustme14]

Unfortunately, JV, having worked with and in many non-profit orgs and polictical causes the truth is most of the leadership are people with big mouths and very small brains.

The bottom line is their isn't anything you can do about it, but feel sorry for his own prejudices, ignorance and brashness. YOU are a better man than he, as you stated your case and just allowed his assertiveness wash over you, affect you and not responded in kind with idiotic rhetoric that demeans not only the entire bi-sexual community, but the political system and the sexual equality political movement all the way back to Stonewall.

The only thing you, and we, can do is to continue to speak our minds and views as openly and honestly as we allow any one else to and know that set backs and defeats are due in a large part to the prude narrow mindedness of the powerhouses who seem to just scream louder than any one else at the right time.

As for how to keep it from festering within yourself, learn the hardest lesson I have had to learn in life--don't waste energy and time on something that you have absolultely no control over. Taking care of those things is, in my humble opnion, in the hands of a higher power who knows more about what HE is doing than I.

[orpheus_lost]

Don't be so hard on yourself. This is one person with his own beliefs and value system. It's a shame he's locked out so many people from helping him and others in his mind, but sadly there are many, many people just like him.

When we share a common cause, belief, or friendship with another person we tend to ascribe to them other beliefs and values they don't necessarily share. When we find the truth it tends to hurt us more than it really should. I know I've experienced it enough in my life.

This guy is an extremist who will never truly respect bisexuals or straights. You can associate with him and even call him a friend to an extent, but he never truly was one and never truly will be. Just don't let his prejudice embitter you as it has him. There are plenty of people out there, gay and straight, who really do accept you as you are and will welcome you in the fight for equality. Your "friend" just isn't one of them.

On another note, if this guy is a leader in the community, then it's time to out him for what he really is - a hate monger. Let other leaders know his beliefs about bisexuals in plain language just as you did here. I think you'll find most really do not share his warped views.

In any case, I'm sorry you've lost a friend, but it seems to me that you've come out ahead.

[WillowTree]

It amazes me how much ignorance and bigotry there is in the gay community. I wonder how much further the movement of the community could get if all of this were let go of?

[NightHawk]

This gay leader acts like just another special interest seeking advantageous benefits from government and a kind of group sanctity from the public. They suffered so long and everyone should feel so guilty about it that this group of victims should enjoy a special status.

Bisexuals are complicated. They are harder to understand in some ways and they are the most different in some ways. Still, anyone who really cared about the sexual freedom of individuals stands for the freedom of all, not some particular subset. Clearly, your old friend does not stand for a high-minded idea of sexual individuality and freedom. He just wants power and acceptance for his group. This is small-minded, but not unusual. Enduring and real sexual freedom always lies in the principle of respect for the individual, not some special interest group.

Bisexuals have a very special perspective in that they not only better appreciate people of both sexes, but they can better appreciate the middle ground of the entire spectrum of sexualities. When bisexuality is accepted by most people as moral and normal, everyone will be much better able to examine their own sexuality and much better able to understand it. I believe most things of a complex nature cannot be fully understood and are in fact likely to be badly misunderstood when one does not perform experimental tests of ideas. The sciences would not be science without experimentation. Politics and business are largely experimental. So, if most people are terrified by the middle ground of bisexuality and therefore cannot enter it to do the experiment, they will not understand sexuality. They will build theories on sand and those theories will topple over in time. We see immense sexual anguish all around us. Serial marriages are often an attempt to solve problems without really addressing them. One-night stand after one-night stand is the same sort of thing.

[Avocado]

I don't even know why they call themselves queer - they're only straight people in the wrong body. Fuck 'em, we need our own movement. Gay and straight rights will never do it for us. It's funny how they hate us for being less stigmatised - ask any straight person and they'll tell you we're more stigmatised by straight people. We have a choice you see, we should know better. I'm not happy about hatred of people who are not straight being called homophobia either. Shouldn't we be pressing to change it to queerphobia? One last thing, aids. Why are people who are not straight held 100% responsible?

[glantern954]

Thank you for sharing this and I am sorry if your friend hurt you. Many political gay people feel as he does, we do dilute their idea of a binary world.

Our day will come, but it will be after they have their day.

GIANT HUG SENT YOUR WAY

[arana]

(((Johnny))), I’m sorry your friend disappointed you. I’m sure it was quite disconcerting to think you had allies in your plight only to find you had none. Its one thing when it is a casual acquaintance but very different when it involves a close friend. Sort of how a person probably feels when a buddy comes out of the closet saying they are gay. You thought you knew them, and then suddenly there is this whole new entity in front of you. It’s off settling at first, that feeling of deception, but you adjust and see they are still the same person deep down. I’m sure your friend didn’t want to cause rifts within your friendship by saying anything before. He can’t possibly think all bi’s are the same anymore than all gays are, or he would not have you as a friend in the first place. But alas, as Wellred has stated, he’s fighting a battle and we are casualties of war. Struck down by friendly fire…...only we won’t stay down.

[ezervet]

Wow, that's really, really shitty. I've never come face to face with this sort of sentiment, though i'm not really active in the "community." This guy seems like a genuine douchebag. Like a lot of genuine douchebags, he's probably not all that important, and I don't think he'll end up being too powerful for "the cause" or "the community." Thinking about it now, how often do extremists (as this guy seems to be) make a real difference outside their movements? The leaders we remember are the Martin Luther Kings, not the Louis Farrakhans.

So we shouldn't be so quick to say "that's it, the gays hate us, let's split off!" Its the moderates with real messages that make a differences. Let this guy have his streetcorner or his rally or his exclusive party, its just that sense of exclusivism that will keep him from really making a difference. So, don't support this guy; keep supporting the movement.

Oh, and i totally second GLantern's giant hug. :)

[canuckotter]

Johnny, that sucks. :( Your friend obviously has his own issues, it's unfortunate that as someone in a leadership position he's able to inflict his issues on others. I have to admit, I don't know if I'd be able to deal with someone like that... I've been very lucky in never having to deal with that kind of idiocy from the queer community.

I think it's time I asked my gay friends what they think, or if this is something they've heard of...

[leizy]

At least in my personal experience, your friend is somewhat rare, not in how he feels, but in how strongly and well-thought out his position is. Most such approaches and ideas in the gay community seem a bit more unconscious and less calculated. But, it ain't new - bisexual women experienced (and still do)exactly this reaction from lesbian feminists who view bisexuality as a treason to female rights.

There are also plenty of parallels between other movements - blacks vs. hispanics over civil rights is a great one. The gays are also bashing nonmonogamous marriages - look at the lack of uproar in the community when Santorum equated gay marriage with incest, bestiality and polygamy. Nobody said - hey, you can't equate polygamy with nonconseensual sex! No, the gay community just left that notion alone, because they know that to win their rights, they have to be nonthreatening, and bisexuals and nonmonogamous marriages are ultimately and innately threatening to the status quo!

but you know what Johnny? you go brother/sister!!!!!! having those conversations, regardless of outcome, raises the ante and the discussion.

david

[ddbmma]

My thoughts are why do we need a movement?

Are bisexuals collectively, throughout history, and
today going to defecate?

Yes, I know we each individually do that. What I am
ignorant about is an entity, say bisexuals all over the
globe, personified to such a point. We've been around
since before there was a concept of time in humanity's
little brain.

It is the same with homosexuals, be they men on men, or
woman on woman. This reminds me of a conversation I had
last night. A lot of ground was covered, which is good
in some respects, at any given I culled a quote. I'll
post that quote below.

"Nothing is True. Everything is permitted."
- William Burroughs

The person I was talking with asked if I believed that.
Yes I do. Let me clarify it out for everyone as I did
for love. You might be surprised, or not, if you stop
and think about it.

A pure objective truth does not, nor can ever exist. In
the event one does, no one will ever grasp it, and
we'll bury it in lies. Crucial to understanding why
this is the case is understanding humans are animals.
That means we are ruled by base desires like hunger.

It also means we are subjective. What I see, you do
not, and the inverse applies. This is one reason I
doubt the divinity alleged behind any belief's sacred
texts written by humans, also why I think there is far
too much suffering in our many worlds.

You are not me, nor I, you. If you follow that logic
out there is no universal one size fits all. Everyone
has the Truth, but there is no Truth. Why can we as
humans not accept that? It makes life easier to follow
some bit of philosophy my mom taught. "Live and let
live."

Everyone is incorrect, but everyone is correct. Sometimes
I think I am too balanced. And my thoughts on idiots being
narrow minded is to laugh. "Death to _all_ fanatics!" There's
even moderation in itself, and if people don't 'get' that you
can find better mates, who do.

Many of us on this site appear to 'get' it. Though, the
adage is, "those who know don't tell." Apologies for
going completely around the bend to articulate my
thoughts & reactions. I felt it merited as I prefer
being honest with people. No point in not being
yourself, as Dr. Suess reminds us.

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who
mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. --
Dr. Seuss

And yes, I read and write a great deal. I explore life
a good bit, too, despite contrary perceptions I may
espouse. "What's that Ben, you play dumb?" "Oh
sometimes. We all can be foggy. We are human, right?" I
enjoy Byron's advice, "think like the wise man, speak
as the dull man."

This often makes life easier, because not everyone
wants to read _War & Peace_ just to find "I agree", at
the end. Still, I have been verbose in this reply to
benefit many applications. For wanting understanding,
I'll never apologize. I don't think you owe the gay friend
an apology, either.

Excuse me now, must write another thousand words into a
one hundred-twenty thousand word novel, & live my
otherwise everyday life as mild mannered Dirk
Underwood. :)

[Contee]

Much love and respect to you Johnny, for weathering such an unpleasant storm. I think you are very courageous. Even if what you said appeared to have made no difference to his mind, you never know what seeds you may have planted.

There are plenty of people who have shifted from a position of strong prejudice to something more humane, and perhaps what you have said will encourage your friend in that direction.

Even if it does not, I feel very fortunate that there are people such as yourself who can speak up for us in even the most hostile of environments. Big ups to you, and I hope the feeling of deflation promptly passes.

[Brian]

Here's my 2 cents...

Your friend, JohnnyV, has some strong feelings about gay rights. I can relate to that a bit, as the current attempt by the religious right to roll back sexual freedoms and human rights disgusts me strongly. His statement, "I am a fascist for gay rights", is over the top, but I suspect there are many in the GLBT rights movement who might say that in the passion of the moment but don't mean it literally. I am confident that the mainstream GLBT movement isn't going to resort to violence or anything else that would hurt the general public and therefore GLBT rights.

And here is where I am going to piss off some of my fellow bisexuals... I think that gay folks have a point when they contend that bisexuals haven't pulled their weight when it comes to advancing gay rights. Many of us bisexuals are in the closet - much more so than gay folks. Harvey Milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) said rather famously that the greatest thing that a GLBT person could do to advance gay rights is to come out of the closet. When I first heard that it sounded very odd to me and I didn't believe it; I thought how could simply coming out help gay rights, and I thought that folks who are in the closet could do many other things to advance gay rights that are more effective than simply coming out. But the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that Mr Milk was right. When GLBT people come out of the closet their family, coworkers, friends and neighbours all realize that homosexuality is not what the religious right claims it is. It puts a face to homosexuality with dozens and dozens of people. Many parents have concluded, after their child has come out, that homosexuality can't be all that bad if their own child is homosexual - because they know their child and they know their child's character. So coming out is a very powerful act that helps all other GLBT people.

But many bisexuals have other considerations that make coming out more difficult for us. We might be in a straight marriage where the spouse may not know, or may know but not be ready to come out themselves as the spouse of a bisexual person. And many bisexuals live in small towns or suburbs where the community is much more hostile to an openly gay/bisexual person than an inner-city community. Inner-city gay folks have a support network and insulation that rural and suburban gays/bisexuals do not.

So for these reasons and more, bisexuals do tend to be in the closet more than gay folks and, in that limited sense, do not pull their weight for GLBT rights.

But your friend is dead wrong when he extends that into a blanket statement such as "[Bisexuals] haven't contributed to the movement at all" (ahem, has he forgotten Brenda Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Howard)'s contributions?), and confesses a desire to exclude bisexuals from the GLBT rights movement.

The gay community needs the bisexual community, and for that matter, they need the (straight) swinger community, the libertarians, straight couples who watch porn together, and the feminists too - anyone who believes in sexual freedom. Gay people alone cannot grant themselves full equality - it needs to be done by a majority of the populace who conclude that sexual freedom and sexual equality are important human rights - that in a just society people can't be discrimated against for what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom.

So I wouldn't sweat it too much that you couldn't convince your friend that the bisexual and gay communities have so much in common and need each other. He is badly mistaken.

Keep in mind that in our own, bisexual, community we have folks who are a bit radical. There are some bisexuals who vote Republican/Conservative, hate all things gay, and think that homosexuality/bisexuality needs to remain in the closet. Every community has its mistaken radicals I guess.

- Drew :paw:

[Avocado]

Here's my 2 cents...

Your friend, JohnnyV, has some strong feelings about gay rights. I can relate to that a bit, as the current attempt by the religious right to roll back sexual freedoms and human rights disgusts me strongly. His statement, "I am a fascist for gay rights", is over the top, but I suspect there are many in the GLBT rights movement who might say that in the passion of the moment but don't mean it literally. I am confident that the mainstream GLBT movement isn't going to resort to violence or anything else that would hurt the general public and therefore GLBT rights.

And here is where I am going to piss off some of my fellow bisexuals... I think that gay folks have a point when they contend that bisexuals haven't pulled their weight when it comes to advancing gay rights. Many of us bisexuals are in the closet - much more so than gay folks. Harvey Milk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Milk) said rather famously that the greatest thing that a GLBT person could do to advance gay rights is to come out of the closet. When I first heard that it sounded very odd to me and I didn't believe it; I though how could simply coming out help gay rights, and I thought that folks who are in the closet could do many other things to advance gay rights that are more effective than simply coming out. But the more I thought about it, the more I came to the conclusion that Mr Milk was right. When GLBT people come out of the closet their family, coworkers, friends and neighbours all realize that homosexuality is not what the religious right claims it is. It puts a face to homosexuality with dozens and dozens of people. Many parents have concluded, after their child has come out, that homosexuality can't be all that bad if their own child is homosexual - because they know their child and they know he/she is a good person. So coming out is a very powerful act, that helps all other GLBT people.

But many bisexuals have other considerations that make coming out more difficult for us. We might be in a straight marriage where the spouse may not know, or may know but not be ready to come out themselves as the spouse of a bisexual person. And many bisexuals live in small towns or suburbs where the community is much more hostile to an openly gay/bisexual person than an inner-city community. Inner-city gay folks have a support network and insulation that rural and suburban gays/bisexuality do not.

So for these reasons and more, bisexuals do tend to be in the closet more than folks and, in that limited sense, do not pull their weight for GLBT rights.

But your friend is dead wrong when he extends that into a blanket statement such as "[Bisexuals] haven't contributed to the movement at all" (ahem, has he forgotten Brenda Howard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brenda_Howard)'s contributions), and confesses a desire to exclude bisexuals from the GLBT rights movement.

The gay community needs the bisexual community, and for that matter, they need the (straight) swinger community, the libertarians, straight couples who watch porn together, and the feminists too - anyone who believes in sexual freedom. Gay people alone cannot grant themselves full equality - it needs to be done by a majority of the populace who conclude that sexual freedom and sexual equality are important human rights - that in a just society people can't be discrimated against for what they do in the privacy of their own bedroom.

So I wouldn't sweat it to much that you couldn't convince your friend that the bisexual and gay communities have so much in common and need each other. He is badly mistaken.

Keep in mind that in our own, bisexual, community we have folks who are a bit radical. There are some bisexuals who vote Republican/Conservative, hate all things gay, and think that homosexuality/bisexuality needs to remain in the closet. Every community has its radicals I guess.

- Drew :paw:

And we also need to come out to show the world bisexuals exist, not just gays, add on the points you made to what I've just said aswell. My fiancee said if one of our friends asks me my sexuality she won't mind if I answer truthfully. I'll probably do that.

[Rhuth]

The following is an AIM conversation between myself and my husband. regarding this post. He is tandemrip, and I am Ohbedah.

tandemrip: *smooooooch*
tandemrip: Lots of hotties in pilates this morning *drool*
Ohbedah: I am suddenly so depressed.
tandemrip: ?
tandemrip: Over the hotties in Pilates?
Ohbedah: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1292
tandemrip: *sigh*
tandemrip: The civil rights movement was over when blacks started to say that gays should have no rights
tandemrip: The gay rights movement is over because now the bisexuals aren't really gay. They choose to be gay
tandemrip: Ug
tandemrip: Ignore them
tandemrip: They've lost sight of the point of living
tandemrip: Sexuality is about living
tandemrip: Regardless if you like guys, girls, both, yourself, whatever. It is about living
Ohbedah: I don't want to be out anymore if they are going to think of me that way.
Ohbedah: I'm not afraid of my parents knowing, I am afraid of getting sneered and shunned if a gay person finds out.
tandemrip: Isn't that a reflection of themselves, then? If they are threatened by you, doesn't it mean they don't feel comfortable with themselves?
tandemrip: Stick to your guns. Stick to your sexuality. Fuck the fucking fuckers
Ohbedah: Lol
tandemrip: But I am serious though. Fuck them
tandemrip: Fuck anyone who tells you how to live.
tandemrip: (You can even tell me to fuck off for saying that you should tell people to fuck off)
Ohbedah: Lol
tandemrip: If this guy is threatened, then let him be threatened
tandemrip: If lesbians are threatened by bisexual girls, let them be
tandemrip: I am not threatened by any of you
tandemrip: This is a telling quote:
I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.
tandemrip: That guy has lost the moral high ground.
Ohbedah: I still have a newfound fear of lesbians now though.
tandemrip: ok.
tandemrip: People have issues. Some will say "Eww! Bi's? Ick, they chose to be this way!"
tandemrip: Others will say "Cool! "
Ohbedah: One gay person says something bigoted, and I assume my own bigotry and start to fear all lesbians.
tandemrip: ah
tandemrip: Like my fear of Christians
Ohbedah: Lol Yeah. Both are unfounded. We are only afraid of the loud obnoxious ones who do not reflect the majority.
tandemrip: Yup
tandemrip: I think what you are feeling is bi-phobia-phobia
Ohbedah: So I should only be afraid of loud obnoxious lesbians whom I wouldn't want to be around anyway.
tandemrip: Exactly
tandemrip: Just like the fundies who fight hard against homosexuality, only to be found with a male prostitute in a compromising position
tandemrip: And maybe for now just try to associate with bisexuals. Go to the support group. Discuss your feelings
tandemrip: Isn't it tonight? You can go after you exercise
tandemrip: Strength in numbers
Ohbedah: You have work to do?
tandemrip: Not tonight
tandemrip: You need this more
Ohbedah: Thanks. You really helped.
tandemrip: Now go get a girlfriend who likes balding, 35-year-old married guys
Ohbedah: LOL
tandemrip: *smooch*
tandemrip: And if anyone were to put you down, regardless of sex, I'd knock them to the floor
tandemrip: For you, my love, are truly one of a kind
Ohbedah: Awwwwww! *SMOOCH*
tandemrip: *teary eyed*
Ohbedah: You too. *hugs*
tandemrip: Feel better?
Ohbedah: Lots! Lol Trying to get out the door and start my day now.
tandemrip: good

[Brian]

Rhuth,

Your AIM conversation is a wonderful example of the support that spouses can give each other! Very inspiring.

- Drew :paw:

[DiamondDog]

sorry to hear that your friend is like that.

I recieved almost nothing but positive support from gay men and the LGBT/queer community, even when I was in a questioning period and I needed more sexual experiences to come to a concrete decision. Lots of my friends later (or sometimes earlier) told me how they're bi or how they'd had sex with women as teenagers/young adults and while they wouldn't do that now, that it was a good thing when they did it and they even enjoyed it then. Some had even been married once or twice before. There was even one transwoman that had spent most of her previous life as a heterosexual man.

I even had a friend that didn't identify as bi but he'd had sex with men twice in his life, when women weren't around and he'd been with a lot more women than men.

Some people would say things like "oh you're just confused", or I think that a lot of people thought that I am straight. People would tell me I am "straight acting" and I'd think WTF does that mean? How am I "straight acting" if I have sex with men? I just took that with a grain of salt and realized that it doesn't matter what other people think I am/read me as but what matters is how I percieve myself. Honestly, I didn't mind the ambiguity since I figured that it's just something that I should get used to.

I tend to think of me as "me", not as "gay" or "straight" or "bi". I also know that I've been in love with women, and I've been in love with men, and that I've been sexually attracted to both, and that it's my decision to be with whomever I want, because it's my life and I only get one. That was not an easy path to take, but I can tell you that on the whole I'm happier as a person than I ever was in the past when I had to play the "what if" game. If people do ask me my sexuality I say that I am bi-sexual since that is a lot easier for people to understand than if I say "oh I'm fluid" or "I'm just sexual".

Of course, lots of people that I met thought that bisexuals are as "rare as unicorns" to quote a phrase/joke I've seen. I honestly don't mind that as those people's worldviews are built around labels and stereotypes and it can be fun to shatter those for others, to educate them.

[KatieBi]

Hot damn, Rhuth! Sounds like you're the luckiest gal I know! Congratulations to you both - the conversation added a needed spark of happiness/humor/optimism to an otherwise sad topic of conversation.

But, on topic, Johnny V, you have my sincerest sympathies for this awful revelation about how your gay friend truly feels. It seems like your friend belongs (on this issue, at least) to the very cold and calculating crowd - the same kinds of people who destroy our environment for a quick profit, while completely missing the point that you can't continually diminish one side of the equation without eventually affecting the other. These strategies are not "sustainable."

I remember when I first encountered the concept of racism within the black community - that some blacks were "blacker" than others, and therefore better. A friend of mine who had both black and white parents got called "oreo" often during high school by her black "friends", and I have to admit that, as a caucasian, I never realized how truly hurtful this statement was until I figured out my own sexuality and experienced the biphobia that some str8s/gays/lesbians exhibit. (I truly wish I could take a time machine back to those days and give those a-holes a piece of my mind, instead of silently allowing them to perpetrate their ignorant acts).

All I can say is that I do believe that you should take pride in the fact that you argued your case for this unenlightened fellow - you certainly have my thanks as a usually silent bi-stander in such situations; thanks for giving me and my/our sexuality a voice! - and realize that he is simply one voice in an ocean of opinions (though I know that the betrayal of a close friend isn't so easily dismissed by this kind of logic).

Unfortunately, there's not a lot to do in the face of such people. I usually just think of a quote my sister often uses in her signature. "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" (Gandi, I think) - the best we can do is set the example we wish others to follow. It's a more long-term strategy, I guess, and not very satisfying in the short term, but I for one believe it works.

[allbimyself]

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

Your friend seems to appreciate their support. If they come out will he reject it?

[JrzGuy3]

tandemrip: This is a telling quote:
I think the former argument is a bit pale, how the hell can you face people unwilling to say there is no sexual attraction aside from heterosexual, then turn around and say there is no sexual attraction(s) other than hetero/homosexual? The people I see in the latter by one of two means. One, they are two stupid to see this simple logic. Two, they willfully ignore it. Either way, these are not people who are ever going to be our allies. Honestly, woulod you really want people that pigheaded or thick headed? As far as I'm concerned, not having them "help" us is addition by subtraction.
tandemrip: That guy has lost the moral high ground.

Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.

[arana]

Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.
I think he's saying, "by jove Watson, you've got it". lol No, I think he is agreeing with you....that's what it sounds like to me anyway.

[citystyleguy]

hell, sorry to hear of your heartfelt ache, caused by someone you thought your friend! from the readings above, you have a community here that can give you far more than that moron and low-level thug can every give or be willing to support.

take what i say from here on out as what has proven useful to me; first, a bit of history. i am active in our political community here in my hometown, and my neighborhood; i sit on various boards, councils, what have you, not in the big picture, but in the behind the scenes areas. i also am active in many areas of my life, now and long before. in addition, i have my own housing development company, not big, but we build superior quality homes and other housing types in the in-fill areas of our city; much of my time is plotting out strategims and doing battle, with politicos, bureaucrates, nimbys, people(s) from any and all walks of life that think they are more capable than anyone to determine future courses of the greater community.

your friend is a not too smart, not all that imaginetive, of a very common type; he is more fearful that other's messages will cloud their own, and so bite back like a junk-yard dog at perceived threats. what he fails to realize, or more likely fearful of, is that he stands on the shoulders of far more determined and stronger fighters than he can ever be. despite rhetoric to the contrary, no movement does it "...all on their own..."; it is only fighting your fight, as well as equipped as you can possibly be, and getting their attention, all to gain notice, meanwhile, learn their angles, desires, and soft spots, etc. all to help your cause/effort, so that you can either achieve consesus and/or compromise, or end-run them to the finish line. not the friendliest approach, i grant you, but then your supposed "friend" made it quite clear as to his intentions.

your battle is yours, and those who share the same goal and mind-sets (you, me, and the others that populate this website for example); we bi-sexuals no more need the gays, lesbians, straights, democrats, republicans, religions, etc., etc., they have made quite clear they do not otherwise need us. their opinions, statements, and attacks are based on ingnorance, and selfishness. this is in part why i answered the inquiry that was posted to us in advocate, as undecided; i wasnt given any other meaningful reply (a not so bright way of controlling the results), and i explained my intentions afterward. i used to get a subscription to adovcate, but dropped them as i no longer felt that my issues were being addressed; i dropped the straight world paradigms, and those of the gay world, as much for their failures as their imagined successes.

we, who walk a different path, must learn to carve out our worlds, share within our friends and families :bibounce: (meaning the greater associations of others in your community), perpare to defend the same, attack as needed and leave no threats, and stay the hell away from these small minded ignoramouses. the problem is often getting them to leave us the hell alone; oh, well let me go sharpen by saber. :2cents:

dont let the bastard get you down, hang your head on the shoulder of a kindred soul, and have a good cry; then prepare to do battle! :male: :female: united! :flag2:

your kindred friend and soulmate! :cool:

[arana]

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

Your friend seems to appreciate their support. If they come out will he reject it?
Maybe they'll just get a slap on the wrist for being naughty. :tong:

[Rhuth]

Could you explain this a bit? I'm not trying to attack you, but I'm curious as to what you're (or your husband is) going for.


Omg I'm so sorry, JrzGuy! I didn't notice that before! I had edited out some personal information, and accidentally changed the meaning there! My husband quoted you because he felt you made a strong point. One I might have found comforting if my head had not been reeling from JohnyV's post. The person who lost the moral high ground was certainly not you, as my poor grammar in my post implies. JohnyV's friend is the one who lost the moral high ground. I thought I had read your post, but my husband's quoting it in AIM made me go back and read it. It was quite good and quite comforting. When JohnyV gets back on, I am sure it will be a nice anchor for him. Thank you.

*hugs*
Rhuth

[NightHawk]

allbimyself makes an interesting point in implying that substantial numbers of the apparently straight people who support undiscrimination against gays are likely to be bisexual in some sense. There is a contradiction in welcoming their support when they are silent about their sexuality, but shunning it when they declare their bisexuality. However, it is clear that this gay leader is playing a very Machievellian political game and is not really in the least concerned with either rational consistency or morality.

tandemrip: Sexuality is about living

Rhuth's husband was right on on this and made a number of other good points as well.

[JrzGuy3]

Omg I'm so sorry, JrzGuy! I didn't notice that before! I had edited out some personal information, and accidentally changed the meaning there!

It's cool. This is actually what I thought happened, cuz your post was way more coherent that way. No harm, no foul :tongue:


we bi-sexuals no more need the gays, lesbians, straights, democrats, republicans, religions, etc., etc., they have made quite clear they do not otherwise need us.

I think that this may be a bit harsh. I won't disupte that there is large degree of biphobia and transphobia in the gay rights establishment. However, I think it's very important to distinguish between the establishment and people represented by the establishment. To judge all the people in the focus groups you name by the decision makers in the gay rights movement is like a European judging all Americans against Shrubby down in D.C.

To speak in favor of some of those groups, I'm happily registered as a democrat. I'll admit that the party hasn't taken as strong a stance on bisexuality as I'd like (read: none). However, I know that to advance the liberal and progressive movement that I think is starting to take swing in this country, some issues will need to wait until the left becomes a force with more momentum. I'm content (not happy, content) with this.

I'm also very happily a Unitarian. The organization is EXTREMELY open to people like us; in fact, there are entire congregations called "Welcoming Congregations" which go out of their way to be GLBT inclusive (not just GAY inclusive, but GLBT inclusive) While I don't think we should be calling Catholics and many Protestant denominations our friends right now, we shouldn't write of religion as a whole. You can't judge the purity or the value of a religion by those who are perverting it.

Furthermore, I have Many gay or lesbian friends whom are entirely accepting of bisexuality. In fact, one of my best friends and future Best Man is the first gay friend I ever had, and has been one of the most influential people in my life since I met him.

So in summation, my argument is that the System, the Establishment are the forces which are broken and it's the influential people in them, the gay rights leaders that came from the 70s who have taken the ship off course and into the rocks. These systems and groups do us no good politically and should not be ones we're lining up behind. Yet, we need to be discerning enough ourselves as to not turn away the people whom ARE our allies.

*~Fed

[JrzGuy3]

As an addendum (there doesn't seem to be a tool to edit posts here):

I mentioned that the Unitarians have what we call "Welcoming Congregations" which specifically outreach to the GLBT community. Here's some more information if anyone's curious.

Welcoming Congregation Introduction (http://www.uua.org/obgltc/wcp/wc1expln.html)

[Avocado]

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

Your friend seems to appreciate their support. If they come out will he reject it?

Probably. Put it this way, just as there is homophobia there is also heterophobia. Now then, consider how different many straight people are towards gay and bi people. We have a choice, we should know better. By the same token, as far as many heterophobes are concerned, straight people can't help it, but again, we have the choice, we're the ones who should know better.

[JrzGuy3]

I have one thought... how many of the "straight" supporters of gay rights are closet bisexuals?

I'm sure a number of them are. At the same time, I'm sure a number of them are closet gays or lesbians and/or transgender.

By the same token, however, I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio is a bit higher towards gay supporters being closet bisexuals a tad higher than closet gays/lesbians. WHen I was closetted, I had lots of friends whom were gay or lesbian. It wasn't until I came to college and had two close friends who were bi that I felt the really iminent need to come clean.

[CherryBlossom74]

His entire approach reminds me of the teachings of Elijah Mohammad to Malcolm X and all the others in the Nation of Islam. Shun outsiders, no help from them is valuable...no one else can help...no one else can understand.

Deplorable and srange.

Realistically, we know what happened there. Malcolm X realized what the teaching were worth and inevitably removed himself from it. His actions forced change because he started something he felt actually showed what he believed the movement should be. I personally believe that we must work with those who are willing to work with us.

The fact is that not ALL the community is like that....those who stay outside the sphere of rhetoric and negativism are out there. I met a lovely man named Mitch who is gay, and he and I are aghast together at how badly these two movements don't get along. We are younger than most of the ones in the Bi movement (Adrienne and I) but he is younger than most of those in the LG movement. He puzzles over the anger just as we puzzle over the negative stereotypes draped on us.

It's heartening to us, to sit down together and talk...to just be friends together and be "Other than Straight" together. :) It gives me hope that one day we'll be that way all the time, that our children will be in a better place still. We see it moving forward even now as he and I talk, as we all three go out to lunch from time to time...in each hug and his joyous laughter at seeing me walk into his store to pay him a visit. :)

Even in his assessment that I am a "Well adjusted bisexual male..." LOL. Not exactly true...I'm still adjusting. But he trusts me to help a friend of his who is bisexual come to terms with it and work past is terrible ordeals as he went through from thinking himself gay and straight at turns....and the way each side treated him as he seemed to go back and forth.

In the end I see we will one day be as the picture at the top of the Bisexual.com page is...but in that picture will be all manners of choices and combinations of sexual identities and races. Mitch gave me that gift...a precious one I am sure you will agree! The gift that there is hope.

And do you know what? We aren't lovers...just friends with common likes and dislikes. I gave him a rainbow necklace of beads Adrienne made and he was so happy to feel accepted in the GLBT community by that act. In one swoop we became representative of acceptance of his "Other than Straight" sexuality without question. Isn't that wonderful?

So if they give you hell and speak behind your back, turn the other cheek and remember we love you, Johnny. One day they will change their minds or be made to see the light. There are those that see, and more who will see the truth tomorrow than could understand yesterday. Not all you and others like you have done has been in vain....we are with you in your pain but do not take their assessments personally.

The only cure for ignorance is the truth......sometimes it is painful to accept it. So feel sorry for them but be sure in yourself and sally forth to fight the good fight.

Sorry if my words are less helpful than some. Just wanted to share some hope.

[Cheryl]

Drew said:

"And here is where I am going to piss off some of my fellow bisexuals... I think that gay folks have a point when they contend that bisexuals haven't pulled their weight when it comes to advancing gay rights. Many of us bisexuals are in the closet - much more so than gay folks."

I think it's important to add that many bisexuals are in the closet *as gay or lesbian*, so they may well be doing their fair share towards gay rights but are not actually visible as bisexuals. I hear of this more often than you might think.... gay activists who are actually bi, but don't publicly identify as such - they just tell me or other out bisexuals behind closed doors...

I'd also like to add that just as many gay folks have done squat for queer rights, many bisexuals have done a great deal. It's important to remember both these things.

cheryl

[canuckotter]

I asked my friends about this... There were a few interesting responses. Among the gay men who responded, the agreement was "Of course bisexuals exist." It was even mentioned that some of the gay men we know aren't actually entirely gay (which I already knew). It was also mentioned that a lot of the "bisexuals don't exist" stuff is probably idealogically motivated -- if you're making strides by claiming that you don't have a choice in your sexuality, and suddenly people come along who do seem to have a choice (hah! yeah right!) then it undermines your point and weakens your political stance.

While a few of my friends (gay, bi, straight, and undetermined) have encountered biphobia, it's generally very minor and easily dismissed. It seems like the Ottawa community is generally pretty accepting, although then again, my contacts with the gay community in Ottawa are pretty limited to the bear-type guys. ;)

[Brian]

I think it's important to add that many bisexuals are in the closet *as gay or lesbian*, so they may well be doing their fair share towards gay rights but are not actually visible as bisexuals. I hear of this more often than you might think.... gay activists who are actually bi, but don't publicly identify as such - they just tell me or other out bisexuals behind closed doors... Good point.

[12voltman59]

Johnny---as far as I am concerned--your "friend" can go jump off a bridge.

I think he is being pretty idiotic in light of the efforts of those on the right to greatly limit the rights of "gays."

While there is much discussion about the issue of "gay marriage" out there today by the religious and political right--the underlying gist of what that is all about is not just marriage--but it is the very existence of those who are not "good, God-fearing, heterosexuals" that is of real concern to the extreme right.

It matters not whether one is "gay," "lesbian," "transgendered," "bisexual" or whatever--if one is not a straight, born again, Jesus loving, God-fearing Christian--one is wrong and going to hell by the way the most extreme on the right think. To those of this ilk--all of these catagories of people listed above are in the same boat--hey are all "evil" and "unsaved" and are therefore damned to perdition's flames.

Every person who is in the "other" catagory (and that means most people) is at risk to lose their rights--your friend had better wake up and smell the coffee and work with bisexuals, lesbians, transgendered, transvestites and straights or whatever who are working to preserve, protect and defend the rights of all----for those rights are endangered if those of the far right win the day.

[WindsorMartha]

As several others have said, I don't think you can argue a person like this out of their prejudices. You and I and every other bi person on the planet knows he's wrong, but talking to people like that is like talking to a brick wall.

I'm wondering what he's afraid if--that kind of resistance often masks fear.

I also have to agree with with another poster--sorry, forgot to note your name--that many people who identify as gay and lesbian have told me privately that they have had satisfying heterosexual relationships; by my definition, they're bi, but that's not how they identify.

My main frustration with this kind of conversation is that I give others the respect of allowing them to know how they feel, how they identify; in return I would like the respect that I know how I feel, too, and how I identify. It hasn't been that long since gay men and lesbians were told they didn't really feel what they knew they were feeling... I would never ever tell someone who identified as gay or trans or lesbian that their identification is wrong, and yet some folks think they can tell me that my self-identification is wrong.

But that doesn't get through, either, so I just move along and work on things that I CAN change, rather than beating my head against a brick wall.

This is my first post, but I'm looking forward to getting to know the forum!
:flag4:

[JrzGuy3]

I also have to agree with with another poster--sorry, forgot to note your name--that many people who identify as gay and lesbian have told me privately that they have had satisfying heterosexual relationships; by my definition, they're bi, but that's not how they identify.

To walk around a bit in their shoes, I can see rationale for this. For me in some past jobs and organizations, it can be frustrating be openly bi. For example, last summer I worked as a bank teller. It was professional enough that it wasn't a job I would have come out to people unless I formed any close enough friendships (didn't) or was asked (wasn't). However, I *did* make mention that I had a girlfriend, which automatically "made" me straight.

What frustrates me is that so many straight people assume everyone they know is straight. I hate this because when I was closetted, the fact that everyone "knew" I was straight made coming out really scary. I feel that by giving people the impression that I'm straight, I'm doing my small part to perpetuate this.

Gays and lesbians have this easier than us. There were so many times at my bank job that I wished I could say something about an ex-boyfriend or something or other to let people know I'm not straight, but I don't have an ex-boyfriend, so that chance never came up.

I could see bisexuals identifying themselves outwardly as gay as a method of defiance to straight people. I just hope that they don't forget where they really are.

[wanderingrichard]

ok, i have to ask, 'cuase i'm a bit dense;

has anyone seen JohnnyV since this thread started??? it's like he dumped this on us, then vanished..or, am i mistaken in this observation?

[Rhuth]

ok, i have to ask, 'cuase i'm a bit dense;

has anyone seen JohnnyV since this thread started??? it's like he dumped this on us, then vanished..or, am i mistaken in this observation?

I got real worried because if this happened to me, I would start thinking some pretty drastic things, so I whimped out and sent him a private message. He is fine, and quite busy with the new baby.

[JrzGuy3]

ok, i have to ask, 'cuase i'm a bit dense;

has anyone seen JohnnyV since this thread started??? it's like he dumped this on us, then vanished..or, am i mistaken in this observation?I got real worried because if this happened to me, I would start thinking some pretty drastic things, so I whimped out and sent him a private message. He is fine, and quite busy with the new baby.

Yea, same. His profile says he's still coming online regularly.

[JohnnyV]

Hi everyone,

First, my deepest thanks to so many people who have showed me such support in this. I appreciate the time and energy you gave to these posts.

In response to Richard and Rhuth, I wanted to let you know, I haven't disappeared. To be honest, the conversation Monday night crushed me emotionally, in ways that surprised me. I avoided opening the thread for three days, because I needed to calm down. After the talk with my friend, for the first time, I found my stress about these political issues affecting me at home; I was grouchy and rude to my wife and impatient with my baby daughter. So I knew I needed a break.

It's reassuring to know that there is a supportive bisexual community. My situation might be a little unusual on this forum, insofar as I came out of the closet as gay, and made tremendous sacrifices for the gay and lesbian cause during the early 1990s. I marched on city hall with ACTUP, came out publicly in newspapers, gave lectures about my gay experiences at high schools in the tri-state area, joined GLYNY, Gay Men of the Bronx, a Latino gay association, and a million other things. I was out at all my jobs, out in my neighborhood, out with my friends. I had to defend myself several times in brawls on the New York City subway because I told strangers off for using the word faggot. I spent a lot of my time and energy on gay rights. And that phase of my life lasted almost eight years.

To Drew: I respect your assessment of the history of the struggle, but I have a totally different take on it. Many people are bisexual but when they want to contribute to gay rights, a confluence of factors force them to swear off any more congress with the opposite sex and take on gay as a label. First, homophobia itself will make it difficult for such people to have any more straight relationships, so many of them say, "what have I got to lose? Let me pull up anchor and say I'm full-on gay." Second, they got mocked and undermined by other people in the struggle. Third, their own sense of themselves starts to disintegrate as they internalize the biphobia of their own movement, in the same way that gays internalize homophobia.

On a gut level, I support the basic shibboleths of gay rights:

--Legalized same-sex marriageas
--Anti-discrimination laws
--Equal rights to adopt, where babies are available and careful attention is paid to protecting the human rights of the biological mother and father

But culturally, I do think that the gay leadership of many of these organizations is out of step with reality and failing to build a strong community. I am definitely not alone in this view, since the Advocate recently ran the story "Is 'Gay' Over" in which the author sought to understand the widespread rejection of "gay" identity by Generation Y (those now between ages 18 and 28 or so).

The younger generation, according to many studies, has grown up with a nonchalant attitude about same-sex relationships, and most of them prefer terms like "open," "curious," "bi," or no label at all. They don't agree with the term "gay" because that term sounds too exclusive and stereotypical to them. Many gay leaders are horrified by the trend, blaming the younger generation for failing to understand the struggle that preceded them, and blaming a consumerist homophobic culture of brainwashing them.

I think the problem hinges on the point Drew made about Harvey Milk. Milk's belief, echoed by many mainstream activists, insists that coming out is the most important act to support the struggle. Milk was right, in the 1970s, when people needed to know that gays existed.

Milk's view is wrong in 2006, when everyone knows that gays exist, whether or not they like what they represent. Today, the problem is -- what do you come out of the closet as?

The gay organizations I know still work on that model of the "coming out" ritual being the key unifier of gay culture. It brings about too many problems though. Young people at colleges are pressured, coaxed, or sometimes forced out of the closet, AS GAY, when they are really bi or simply unsure of what they are. Gays and lesbians sometimes resort to gossip, innuendoes, or actions that would qualify as harrassment, in order to get people to come out and populate their community. THAT IS WRONG.

We are now in a different phase, where we have to confront the complexities of sexuality; "coming out" as it exists now assumes that there are no complexities, that people can complete the I AM ----- statement and in so doing, not only martyr themselves for a cause but somehow enshrine a transcendent truth about themselves and the world at large. Such assumptions are dangerously wrong. Before, there wasn't time to question what we mean by "coming out" or to question whether that's really what we want people to do. The gay community was in its infancy and needed numbers, and fast.

Now, there's no more time NOT to question the movement's emphasis on coming out, because that emphasis is causing the movement to lose numbers, and fast. Bashing ex-gays or vilifying people who "switch teams" and go back in the closet, is NOT going to solve the problem. The problem is that the gay community has spent so long desperately getting people out of the closet, and hasn't spent enough time making the community itself something worth coming out to.

If the gay community is an isolated place with no ability to critique and improve itself because it is so focused on external threats, and if the gay community is made up of two halves (gay and lesbian) that utterly segregate themselves away from the other gender, and if the gay community is a place where young people find themselves judged and prodded and unsupported, and if the gay community is a place where someone is terrorized into abandoning any thoughts of the opposite sex ..... then I have news for everyone. The gay community is not a place worth coming out to.... and THAT is why young people today are rejecting the "gay" label in such large numbers.

Yes, we need gay marriage and laws to protect us from discrimination. But we can't keep using the religious right and the threat of homophobia as a shield from self-evaluation. The culture needs to change. And opening the gay world's borders to bisexuals is a difficult, long, and hard tast -- I have no delusions it will be easy -- but it will be perhaps the most important step toward reform.

Well I have given about 500 dollars worth, so I should shut up now and get back to my small-town life in upstate New York. The flowers are in bloom in the local park and the baby is able to stay calm in the carriage for a little more each day; I walk with her each day. If, as my friend says, my wife and baby are emblems of my complacency and the reasons I can never be part of his world, then fuck him. I paid my dues. It's my turn to be happy.

I love all of you.

Love,
J

[biecnal]

My wife and I have found much more discrimination from the Gay/Lesbian community than from the straight community.

We go to a gay club in a neighboring city, and basically get treated as if we had the plague, because we are openly bisexual.

We had a bisexual booth at a local pride event here a few years back. We had information sheets on bisexuality, bisexual flags, pins, ect. We sat in the hot sun for 5 hours, and people would just pass us by, making crude remarks about bisexuals not knowing what they want.

This is so sad, but it is a fact :(

Jess and I are open to everyone and anyone, regardless of their sexual beliefs.

Lance ;-)

[allbimyself]

Johnny,

BRAVO!

[ocbrokeback]

There's little more I could offer, than what's already been posted, but I am honored to spend a little time each week walking among some of the most insightful and caring folks in the world... "it's been a pleasure sort of walkin' in your garden..."

[canuckotter]

If, as my friend says, my wife and baby are emblems of my complacency and the reasons I can never be part of his world, then fuck him. I paid my dues. It's my turn to be happy.
Huh... A gay leader looking down on someone for finding love and happiness... Amusing, in a really dark and twisted way.

Johnny, thanks for sharing all that with us. It's obviously not been easy for you. I think I must be very lucky... it seems like a lot of these issues have basically dropped out of existence in my are, but obviously not in yours. :( But hey, we're all here for ya! So that's a good start, right? ;)

[JohnnyV]

I think I must be very lucky... it seems like a lot of these issues have basically dropped out of existence in my are, but obviously not in yours. :( But hey, we're all here for ya! So that's a good start, right? ;)

This might depend on how hooked in you are to political activities. If you simply have a network of gay friends, and maybe belong to a social group, then you usually won't encounter the things I've mentioned in this thread. Especially if you entered gay settings as an adult.

I have many gay male friends with whom I don't talk politics. Though we've had some awkward moments, we don't have blowouts like this one, because we're not actively picking at the tougher, deeper issues. It's when you start debating the rhetoric, in a very political manner, that the gay/bi divide becomes more pronounced.

J

[ScifiBiJen]

Johnny,

BRAVO!


Johnny Bravo? Is anyone else young enough to have thought of this too?

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/2867/johnnybravo4iz.th.jpg (http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=johnnybravo4iz.jpg)

Sorry, off-topic...

[wanderingrichard]

LOL , Jen, yeah i did too and i ain't all that young!! johnny bravo indeed, allbi... great pun just when it was needed :bigrin:

Johnny, what i said in private goes here in public too.. stick to your guns.. ultimately, if you and yours couldnt be any happier, then what you have is right , for you and yours..

that snide elitist ass you talked to? well, what goes around comes around.. one day the same thing will happen to him that he did to you.

all : don't know about the rest of you, but this has been an education for me. from what i've seen, < on wobbly soap box again> we need do things our way and let the other branch of the tree die on it's own.. and, know what?? someone made the remark about us being many many shades of gray.. why not take this one step farther and change the bi flag to one of many shades of gray and let the inflexible whiners have their gaudy little rainbow to be ridiculed and trampled ?

[JohnnyV]

Okay, I have to ask:

How old are you, and who is Johnny Bravo?

J

[JohnnyV]

Sorry Richard -- that last one was meant for Jen.

To Richard --thanks so much for your comments. They mean a lot to me. And your private messages were very uplifting; sorry if the baby has me so busy I cant always respond.

J

[wanderingrichard]

dude, dont be sorry for being a proud pappa!! enjoy it.. i never got that chance in life.

Johnny bravo, well he's a bumbling elvisesque cartoon character on cartoon network who is always in trouble and is always gettin his butt kicked by every woman he meets..

this was in no way referring to you and your situation, but rather to the post by allbi saying, " Johhny, Bravo!" which we all know was him saying "good Job dude"

it was just too sweet of a silly twist for either Jen or I apparently to pass up... sorry some of us do have quirky senses of humor.. when things get seriously serious, i'm ususally the guy laughing .. dunno why always been that way..

and for the record, i just turned 47 on the 6th and yeah i may be gettin older but i'll never grow up

[ScifiBiJen]

JohnnyV:

I'm 21. Ok, so not Terribly young... but young enough to still watch Cartoon Network occasionally.

Johnny Bravo is a cartoon character... a rather shallow, self-loving, failed skirt-chaser. Not exactly that I picture you that way, but it's a cute show and allbimyself's comment just brought that image (see previous post) to mind.


:flag1:

[JohnnyV]

Johnny Bravo is a cartoon character... a rather shallow, self-loving, failed skirt-chaser. Not exactly that I picture you that way, but it's a cute show and allbimyself's comment just brought that image (see previous post) to mind.


:flag1:

Oh my God, you found me out! I am not really JohnnyV, I am JohnnyB, and I AM Johnny Bravo! I exist in cyberspace and have escaped the control of the graphic artists who created me. I am a shallow, self-loving, failed skirt-chaser!

Love,
J

PS. Just kidding. You're right, 21 is not terribly young.

[JohnnyV]

and for the record, i just turned 47 on the 6th and yeah i may be gettin older but i'll never grow up




HAPPY BIRTHDAY

:bibounce: :love: :bounce: :bdaygrin:

I didn't know you were born on the devil day!

:devil:

[wanderingrichard]

thanx for the belated wishes, but it was just another day..

no, i don't even consider it anything even remotely like that..not superstitious at all.. think, tho.. it was 06/ 06/ 06/ not 3 6's in a row as is supposedly the number.. lol, in german " null, sex, null, sex, null sex" ........sounds like no sex no sex, no sex, which pretty much describe life for me right now...

so, back to topic, what are we gonna do as a predominately larger, but obviously quieter [ squeaky wheels get the most grease, no wonder they are scared.. they've been getting their attention whore needs taken care of too long at the expense of everyone else] species of humans to make this mess dissappear??

[CherryBlossom74]

We know Johnny Bravo! Adrienne and I are in our 30's, too.

And to prove it, do the lines,"Nobody touch mah hair!" and "Do the monkey with me!" and "That's enough talking about me...what do you think of me?" show how much we've seen? ROFL

And we are sorry that people treated you so badly Biecnal. I lived around Idaho many years back. It's a backward place in some ways, and in some ways it's ok. Since I lived there before I was out I have no idea what kind of reception I would have gotten had I told I was bi to anyone. At the Pride Festivals here we never seem to get a bad response...but that could be because they are holding their tongues.

Never can tell.

[Brian]

Hi everyone,

First, my deepest thanks to so many people who have showed me such support in this. I appreciate the time and energy you gave to these posts.
....

Well I have given about 500 dollars worth, so I should shut up now and get back to my small-town life in upstate New York. The flowers are in bloom in the local park and the baby is able to stay calm in the carriage for a little more each day; I walk with her each day. If, as my friend says, my wife and baby are emblems of my complacency and the reasons I can never be part of his world, then fuck him. I paid my dues. It's my turn to be happy.

I love all of you.

Love,
J Very, very interesting thoughts JohnnyV. No reply from me at this time, you've given me so much food for thought it's going to take a little while for me to digest it. ("Hmmmm")

- Drew :paw:

[JrzGuy3]

Johnny, what i said in private goes here in public too.. stick to your guns..

Shouldn't we try to go through peaceful means of resolution first?
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/2559/gunshowburgundy1em.gif

If anyone missed it, look up Ron Burgundy.

[Avocado]

My wife and I have found much more discrimination from the Gay/Lesbian community than from the straight community.

We go to a gay club in a neighboring city, and basically get treated as if we had the plague, because we are openly bisexual.

We had a bisexual booth at a local pride event here a few years back. We had information sheets on bisexuality, bisexual flags, pins, ect. We sat in the hot sun for 5 hours, and people would just pass us by, making crude remarks about bisexuals not knowing what they want.

This is so sad, but it is a fact :(

Jess and I are open to everyone and anyone, regardless of their sexual beliefs.

Lance ;-)

Fuck 'em. I wonder if they're really gay. They probably vote Tory just because their parents vote Labour, they can all fuck off back to Llandewi Brefi and tell themselves they're the only queers in the village. They're only straight people in the wrong body anyway so that makes us more queer than them. The bigotry they've shown you is all the more reason to keep going, although I think the more we pull out of the gay movement the more of us there is to help our own.

Proud to be bi, proud to be queer, proud to not be straight, proud to not be gay. :bipride:

[Brian]

Hi everyone,

First, my deepest thanks to so many people who have showed me such support in this. I appreciate the time and energy you gave to these posts.

In response to Richard and Rhuth, I wanted to let you know, I haven't disappeared. To be honest, the conversation Monday night crushed me emotionally, in ways that surprised me. I avoided opening the thread for three days, because I needed to calm down. After the talk with my friend, for the first time, I found my stress about these political issues affecting me at home; I was grouchy and rude to my wife and impatient with my baby daughter. So I knew I needed a break.

It's reassuring to know that there is a supportive bisexual community. My situation might be a little unusual on this forum, insofar as I came out of the closet as gay, and made tremendous sacrifices for the gay and lesbian cause during the early 1990s. I marched on city hall with ACTUP, came out publicly in newspapers, gave lectures about my gay experiences at high schools in the tri-state area, joined GLYNY, Gay Men of the Bronx, a Latino gay association, and a million other things. I was out at all my jobs, out in my neighborhood, out with my friends. I had to defend myself several times in brawls on the New York City subway because I told strangers off for using the word faggot. I spent a lot of my time and energy on gay rights. And that phase of my life lasted almost eight years.

To Drew: I respect your assessment of the history of the struggle, but I have a totally different take on it. Many people are bisexual but when they want to contribute to gay rights, a confluence of factors force them to swear off any more congress with the opposite sex and take on gay as a label. First, homophobia itself will make it difficult for such people to have any more straight relationships, so many of them say, "what have I got to lose? Let me pull up anchor and say I'm full-on gay." Second, they got mocked and undermined by other people in the struggle. Third, their own sense of themselves starts to disintegrate as they internalize the biphobia of their own movement, in the same way that gays internalize homophobia.

On a gut level, I support the basic shibboleths of gay rights:

--Legalized same-sex marriageas
--Anti-discrimination laws
--Equal rights to adopt, where babies are available and careful attention is paid to protecting the human rights of the biological mother and father

But culturally, I do think that the gay leadership of many of these organizations is out of step with reality and failing to build a strong community. I am definitely not alone in this view, since the Advocate recently ran the story "Is 'Gay' Over" in which the author sought to understand the widespread rejection of "gay" identity by Generation Y (those now between ages 18 and 28 or so).

The younger generation, according to many studies, has grown up with a nonchalant attitude about same-sex relationships, and most of them prefer terms like "open," "curious," "bi," or no label at all. They don't agree with the term "gay" because that term sounds too exclusive and stereotypical to them. Many gay leaders are horrified by the trend, blaming the younger generation for failing to understand the struggle that preceded them, and blaming a consumerist homophobic culture of brainwashing them.

I think the problem hinges on the point Drew made about Harvey Milk. Milk's belief, echoed by many mainstream activists, insists that coming out is the most important act to support the struggle. Milk was right, in the 1970s, when people needed to know that gays existed.

Milk's view is wrong in 2006, when everyone knows that gays exist, whether or not they like what they represent. Today, the problem is -- what do you come out of the closet as?

The gay organizations I know still work on that model of the "coming out" ritual being the key unifier of gay culture. It brings about too many problems though. Young people at colleges are pressured, coaxed, or sometimes forced out of the closet, AS GAY, when they are really bi or simply unsure of what they are. Gays and lesbians sometimes resort to gossip, innuendoes, or actions that would qualify as harrassment, in order to get people to come out and populate their community. THAT IS WRONG.

We are now in a different phase, where we have to confront the complexities of sexuality; "coming out" as it exists now assumes that there are no complexities, that people can complete the I AM ----- statement and in so doing, not only martyr themselves for a cause but somehow enshrine a transcendent truth about themselves and the world at large. Such assumptions are dangerously wrong. Before, there wasn't time to question what we mean by "coming out" or to question whether that's really what we want people to do. The gay community was in its infancy and needed numbers, and fast.

Now, there's no more time NOT to question the movement's emphasis on coming out, because that emphasis is causing the movement to lose numbers, and fast. Bashing ex-gays or vilifying people who "switch teams" and go back in the closet, is NOT going to solve the problem. The problem is that the gay community has spent so long desperately getting people out of the closet, and hasn't spent enough time making the community itself something worth coming out to.

If the gay community is an isolated place with no ability to critique and improve itself because it is so focused on external threats, and if the gay community is made up of two halves (gay and lesbian) that utterly segregate themselves away from the other gender, and if the gay community is a place where young people find themselves judged and prodded and unsupported, and if the gay community is a place where someone is terrorized into abandoning any thoughts of the opposite sex ..... then I have news for everyone. The gay community is not a place worth coming out to.... and THAT is why young people today are rejecting the "gay" label in such large numbers.

Yes, we need gay marriage and laws to protect us from discrimination. But we can't keep using the religious right and the threat of homophobia as a shield from self-evaluation. The culture needs to change. And opening the gay world's borders to bisexuals is a difficult, long, and hard tast -- I have no delusions it will be easy -- but it will be perhaps the most important step toward reform.

Well I have given about 500 dollars worth, so I should shut up now and get back to my small-town life in upstate New York. The flowers are in bloom in the local park and the baby is able to stay calm in the carriage for a little more each day; I walk with her each day. If, as my friend says, my wife and baby are emblems of my complacency and the reasons I can never be part of his world, then fuck him. I paid my dues. It's my turn to be happy.

I love all of you.

Love,
J Hi JohnnyV, (and all)

Your posts and the posts of others in this thread have really made me think and shown me a different perspective than one I had ever really thought of before.

First of all I should say, I misread your original post a little bit (my fault not yours). I knew it after I replied the first time, but I decided not to go back and make an addendum. I confess to not understanding that the conversation you were relaying was one with a prominent gay leader. I also misunderstood the significance of what the person was saying to you.

I tend, no tended, to dismiss biphobia in the gay community, particularly the gay advocacy community - it might because I don't really know many gay advocates. And I guess because I have never really seen it first hand, I tended to doubt, or at least downplay, it's existence (that's the skeptic in me I guess) - wow that sounds bad now that I have written it. Do I suffer from a closed mind? Perhaps. I'll have to take some time for thoughtful introspection on that.

I also confess to not understanding the significant negative effects of this biphobia or bi-denial. You really pointed out some interesting points in your second post JohnnyV that got me thinking. Particularly about the "second closet" - the pressure on gay-identified (or labelled) people to NOT identify themselves publicly as bisexual even though they feel some attraction to the opposite sex.

So I am wonderring what can we do to address this? How do we turn what JohnnyV says below into action?


The culture needs to change. And opening the gay world's borders to bisexuals is a difficult, long, and hard task -- I have no delusions it will be easy -- but it will be perhaps the most important step toward reform.

[Rhuth]

I am responding to Drew’s question of how to influence cultural change that JonnyV has convinced us is in need of happening. I love to research sociological issues, so I dove right in. As I started writing, I realized that I was making myself sound like an expert. I am not! I want to ask… no beg the reader to please post practical applications of this! As I have started reading these forums, I have read many life examples so completely different from my own. The more you help this community to understand where you come from, the more the community can do to positively influence your standing in life.

In 1982, psychologists Carlo DiClemente, PhD, and James O. Prochaska, PhD did a study involving 872 people who were trying to quit smoking. From this study they developed a five-step model of how people make a change in their lives. It started being used across many fields, as a method for a health professional to influence a healthy change in an individual, be it quitting smoking or any other change. The study is now considered a cornerstone of psychology and has been built off of and referred to by numerous subsequent studies.

A beautifully simplified chart of their model of change adapted to changing drinking habits can be found here (http://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/alac/warren-13.htm). Please click on that link, and refer to it for how to respond on a personal level to an individual you feel is in need of change. View yourself in the practitioner’s roll, and the unhealthy habit in need of change being an un-accepting attitude toward bisexuals. Here is where I need your help. Please give me examples of how you identify which of the five steps they are on, and how would you practically apply your response?

---------------------------------------------

Drew’s question is not aimed at individual situations but a broad social one. How can we influence change in the gay culture to include bisexuals? The above is still applicable because every social group is comprised of individuals, but social groups do become an entity themselves and should be respected as such.

Not surprisingly, methods of influencing change in groups of people is better simplified by marketing agencies than by sociological scientists. I especially like Les Robinson’s paper on The Seven Doors Social Marketing Approach (http://media.socialchange.net.au/strategy/). You have to click on that one if for nothing more than the hilarious little cartoon examples.

Basically he argues that you need to respect the group you are trying to influence. Just because we seek to educate them does not mean that their lack of education makes them stupid. Instead of seeing them as seven steps, he wants you to see them as seven obstacles. You are simply opening doors that were obstacles to the gay community accepting bisexuals. Those seven doors are:


Knowledge
Desire
Skills
Optimism
Facilitation
Stimulation
Reinforcement



1. Knowledge/awareness

Drew just bravely opened himself up to vulnerability by admitting he had just received this one from JohnnyV. No, you do not suffer from a closed mind. A closed mind would not be able to change. You changed your mind, and admitted it publicly! This makes you strong and inspirational. How do we reach others like JohnnyV reached you?

Robinson pointed out that “People are practical - they will always demand clear, simple, feasible road maps before they start a journey to a strange place.” Can acceptance of bisexuals be made simple? Smaller goals? Any suggestions?

Especially impressive is the way JohnnyV articulated the consequences of the gay community not changing. It is an important point to make. When arguing a point, one should always keep in mind why their audience should care to listen.

2. Desire – imagining yourself in a different future

This could be the converse of articulating consequences. Portray a revitalized gay community? I am having trouble imagining ways to make the bisexual community sound desirable without it sounding like an orgy personal ad! Lol

3. Skills – knowing what to do

If your audience has already been through doors 1 and 2, they need to know how to articulate that they accept us now. If we want them to speak out, what exactly do we want them to say? What actions would we like to see them taking?

4. Optimism (or confidence)

We need to keep in mind that acceptance is inevitable. Eventually it has to happen. We need to remember that when the going gets bad, and portray that optimism. We need to show that individual efforts are not futile just because organizations are failing to set an example.

5. Facilitation – having outside support

“If personal behaviour change is blocked by real-world obstacles (and it usually is) then all the communications on earth will be ineffective. The role of an 'education' strategy might therefore need to be expanded to involve the establishment of new services and infrastructure.”

Yeay Bisexual.com! Now, how many of us attend support groups in our local areas? Okay, I’m guilty and going to my first one tomorrow night. I need to learn what services and infrastructures exist before I can help make them accessible outside the bisexual community.

6. Stimulation – having a kick-start

Holding telethons, public meetings, or festivals were suggested. We have them. They are posted here (thank you). I need to become more involved before I can start suggesting strategies for them. Do any of you have suggestions for stimulating the inertia of change?

7. Feedback and reinforcement

Do we hand out social awards? Share some success stories for the rest of us to refer to! Are success stories accessible to the gay and straight communities?

I’m not a real activist; I just play one on the forums! Lol

/Rhuth

[Avocado]

I need to change my drinking habits - I need to drink more

[JohnnyV]

I am responding to Drew’s question of how to influence cultural change that JonnyV has convinced us is in need of happening. I love to research sociological issues, so I dove right in. As I started writing, I realized that I was making myself sound like an expert. I am not! I want to ask… no beg the reader to please post practical applications of this! As I have started reading these forums, I have read many life examples so completely different from my own. The more you help this community to understand where you come from, the more the community can do to positively influence your standing in life.

In 1982, psychologists Carlo DiClemente, PhD, and James O. Prochaska, PhD did a study involving 872 people who were trying to quit smoking. From this study they developed a five-step model of how people make a change in their lives. It started being used across many fields, as a method for a health professional to influence a healthy change in an individual, be it quitting smoking or any other change. The study is now considered a cornerstone of psychology and has been built off of and referred to by numerous subsequent studies.

A beautifully simplified chart of their model of change adapted to changing drinking habits can be found here (http://www.rnzcgp.org.nz/alac/warren-13.htm). Please click on that link, and refer to it for how to respond on a personal level to an individual you feel is in need of change. View yourself in the practitioner’s roll, and the unhealthy habit in need of change being an un-accepting attitude toward bisexuals. Here is where I need your help. Please give me examples of how you identify which of the five steps they are on, and how would you practically apply your response?

---------------------------------------------

Drew’s question is not aimed at individual situations but a broad social one. How can we influence change in the gay culture to include bisexuals? The above is still applicable because every social group is comprised of individuals, but social groups do become an entity themselves and should be respected as such.

Not surprisingly, methods of influencing change in groups of people is better simplified by marketing agencies than by sociological scientists. I especially like Les Robinson’s paper on The Seven Doors Social Marketing Approach (http://media.socialchange.net.au/strategy/). You have to click on that one if for nothing more than the hilarious little cartoon examples.

Basically he argues that you need to respect the group you are trying to influence. Just because we seek to educate them does not mean that their lack of education makes them stupid. Instead of seeing them as seven steps, he wants you to see them as seven obstacles. You are simply opening doors that were obstacles to the gay community accepting bisexuals. Those seven doors are:


Knowledge
Desire
Skills
Optimism
Facilitation
Stimulation
Reinforcement



1. Knowledge/awareness

Drew just bravely opened himself up to vulnerability by admitting he had just received this one from JohnnyV. No, you do not suffer from a closed mind. A closed mind would not be able to change. You changed your mind, and admitted it publicly! This makes you strong and inspirational. How do we reach others like JohnnyV reached you?

Robinson pointed out that “People are practical - they will always demand clear, simple, feasible road maps before they start a journey to a strange place.” Can acceptance of bisexuals be made simple? Smaller goals? Any suggestions?

Especially impressive is the way JohnnyV articulated the consequences of the gay community not changing. It is an important point to make. When arguing a point, one should always keep in mind why their audience should care to listen.

2. Desire – imagining yourself in a different future

This could be the converse of articulating consequences. Portray a revitalized gay community? I am having trouble imagining ways to make the bisexual community sound desirable without it sounding like an orgy personal ad! Lol

3. Skills – knowing what to do

If your audience has already been through doors 1 and 2, they need to know how to articulate that they accept us now. If we want them to speak out, what exactly do we want them to say? What actions would we like to see them taking?

4. Optimism (or confidence)

We need to keep in mind that acceptance is inevitable. Eventually it has to happen. We need to remember that when the going gets bad, and portray that optimism. We need to show that individual efforts are not futile just because organizations are failing to set an example.

5. Facilitation – having outside support

“If personal behaviour change is blocked by real-world obstacles (and it usually is) then all the communications on earth will be ineffective. The role of an 'education' strategy might therefore need to be expanded to involve the establishment of new services and infrastructure.”

Yeay Bisexual.com! Now, how many of us attend support groups in our local areas? Okay, I’m guilty and going to my first one tomorrow night. I need to learn what services and infrastructures exist before I can help make them accessible outside the bisexual community.

6. Stimulation – having a kick-start

Holding telethons, public meetings, or festivals were suggested. We have them. They are posted here (thank you). I need to become more involved before I can start suggesting strategies for them. Do any of you have suggestions for stimulating the inertia of change?

7. Feedback and reinforcement

Do we hand out social awards? Share some success stories for the rest of us to refer to! Are success stories accessible to the gay and straight communities?

I’m not a real activist; I just play one on the forums! Lol

/Rhuth


Rhuth, you are a goddess among women. Be my life coach.

J

[Rhuth]

Rhuth, you are a goddess among women. Be my life coach.

J

LOL Don't call me a goddess! If I am that long winded in the forums, can you imagine how long my bible would be?!?

[JohnnyV]

Rhuth,

Please, could I EVER accuse another human of being long-winded? What, with my 4,000 word posts and my "Supermember" status because I've gone on and on for like 450 posts?

You are a goddess among women. Be my life coach.

J

[Rhuth]

Johnny,

I would gladly be your goddess... or your life coach... if you would just make up your mind about it! I mean, come on! Stop being such a fence sitter! :tongue:

:flag1: :bibounce: :flag1:

[JohnnyV]

Rhuth,

So are you saying I can't have both a goddess and a life coach? That I can't worship and also ask about whether my belt and shoes are matching? I want to bring offerings and ask, "Oh, Shalom, how does my hair look?"

J ;)

[JrzGuy3]

Something I was just thinking about which seems relevant:

A few semesters ago, I took an Intro to Gay & Lesbian Studies course. A good number of my gay friends were in the course as well. When we did introductions on the first day and did the usual "So why did you choose this course?" all my gay friends mentioned being gay, while I mentioned being bi. The professor also mentioned being gay.

Here's where it gets interesting. I was the ONLY person who said I was bisexual. However, reviewing profiles on Facebook revealed I wasn't the only one, simply that none of the 4-5 others (all girls, I believe) came clean about it.

My professor also seemed to not be huge on the notion of bisexuality. While I don't think he would go as so far to deny it, he seemed to be content to academically not worry about it. about half a dozen times during the semester he'd be talking about some sort of theory of homosexuality and I'd ask how bisexuality fit into the picture; he'd respond with, "It doesn't; in fact, your existence kinda flies in the face of this theory." It wasn't said in a mean way, more matter-of-factly, and I didn't really disagree. But it really showed me how we're treated largely by the psychological academic establishment. It's kinda like how until the 70s, white heterosexual men were considered "blank slates" to the research psychology community, and you could use white heterosexual men as your controls and test subjects for any experiment you wanted to perform. Yes, including ones applied to women and minorities. Ain't science great?

Anyway, he did note one thing about me I found really interesting. I compartmentalize my bisexuality; I often behave as if inside I have two seperate identities, gay and straight, which I slip to and from at will rather than one distict bisexual identity. But we can debate the validity of that in another thread.

[Rhuth]

But it really showed me how we're treated largely by the psychological academic establishment. It's kinda like how until the 70s, white heterosexual men were considered "blank slates" to the research psychology community, and you could use white heterosexual men as your controls and test subjects for any experiment you wanted to perform. Yes, including ones applied to women and minorities. Ain't science great?

So would this fit under #3? Something we would like to ask others to do once they have accepted us? Ask for valid research from academic establishments on the psychological and sociological aspects of bisexuality?

[JohnnyV]

Hi, Jersey Guy,

Without going into too much detail, I should tell you that I have taught university in New Jersey and I may know the professor you've mentioned...

A lot of things happen behind the scenes, when it comes to curriculum development, that you may not know about (or may not need to know, but here goes anyway...)

Professors/scholars fight wars about this stuff. Your G&L Studies professor has worked himself into a certain intellectual position, which probably has verylittle to do with you or any of the other students. He's part of one scholarly camp -- the same camp that gave us the NY Times "Bisexuality doesn't exist" study last year -- and he's probably published articles and given lectures that have linked his name and reputation to the idea that sexuality is broken down into gay and straight.

The fact that he went around and had people confess their sexual orientations at the beginning of the semester probably indicates that he comes from the "politics is personal" camp that held sway over many campuses in the late 1980s and 1990s; it was this camp that took the heaviest beating in the Culture Wars that followed. Your professor represents, in a word, everything that I fought against as a student and now as a professor.

There are many other positions within "queer theory" which is a field that's much more diverse and not so rigid as "gay and lesbian studies." Within the academy, I should tell you that bisexuals have a very hard time. To get tenure, you have to placate the old-school ultra-straight guys from the 1950s as well as that earlier generation of gay scholars who marched and fought against Stone Age psychology, back in the 1970s, and haven't yet moved out of that us/them mode. In a weird way, the straighter-than-thou and the gayer-than-thou scholars get along very well, mostly because their segregated vision of the world means that neither group will pollute the other group's realm of existence. When you're bisexual and going up for tenure, you can count on having freaked out both groups -- and it is often a struggle to get enough votes not to lose your job.

I want to fight against the kind of hard-nosed intolerance that you describe from that professor, but I have to admit, I am in a frighteningly unstable position and I don't know if I am going to get tenure. My publications are viewed as irritating to the die-hard gay and lesbian scholars who wield power over the academy, and to straight guys, well, I'm sort of a freak show.

It might be disappointing, but I should tell you that it takes a long, long process of change, before you see a change in what the prof tells you in the classroom. There has to be a massive shift in the scholarship. There have to be more publications and conference panels that call into question things like what your prof said. And a new generation has to challenge his views.

I'm working on it, but I'm fighting a lonely battle -- please be patient if it takes a while.

Ciao,
J!


Something I was just thinking about which seems relevant:

A few semesters ago, I took an Intro to Gay & Lesbian Studies course. A good number of my gay friends were in the course as well. When we did introductions on the first day and did the usual "So why did you choose this course?" all my gay friends mentioned being gay, while I mentioned being bi. The professor also mentioned being gay.

Here's where it gets interesting. I was the ONLY person who said I was bisexual. However, reviewing profiles on Facebook revealed I wasn't the only one, simply that none of the 4-5 others (all girls, I believe) came clean about it.

My professor also seemed to not be huge on the notion of bisexuality. While I don't think he would go as so far to deny it, he seemed to be content to academically not worry about it. about half a dozen times during the semester he'd be talking about some sort of theory of homosexuality and I'd ask how bisexuality fit into the picture; he'd respond with, "It doesn't; in fact, your existence kinda flies in the face of this theory." It wasn't said in a mean way, more matter-of-factly, and I didn't really disagree. But it really showed me how we're treated largely by the psychological academic establishment. It's kinda like how until the 70s, white heterosexual men were considered "blank slates" to the research psychology community, and you could use white heterosexual men as your controls and test subjects for any experiment you wanted to perform. Yes, including ones applied to women and minorities. Ain't science great?

Anyway, he did note one thing about me I found really interesting. I compartmentalize my bisexuality; I often behave as if inside I have two seperate identities, gay and straight, which I slip to and from at will rather than one distict bisexual identity. But we can debate the validity of that in another thread.

[Avocado]

Hi, Jersey Guy,

Without going into too much detail, I should tell you that I have taught university in New Jersey and I may know the professor you've mentioned...

A lot of things happen behind the scenes, when it comes to curriculum development, that you may not know about (or may not need to know, but here goes anyway...)

Professors/scholars fight wars about this stuff. Your G&L Studies professor has worked himself into a certain intellectual position, which probably has verylittle to do with you or any of the other students. He's part of one scholarly camp -- the same camp that gave us the NY Times "Bisexuality doesn't exist" study last year -- and he's probably published articles and given lectures that have linked his name and reputation to the idea that sexuality is broken down into gay and straight.

The fact that he went around and had people confess their sexual orientations at the beginning of the semester probably indicates that he comes from the "politics is personal" camp that held sway over many campuses in the late 1980s and 1990s; it was this camp that took the heaviest beating in the Culture Wars that followed. Your professor represents, in a word, everything that I fought against as a student and now as a professor.

There are many other positions within "queer theory" which is a field that's much more diverse and not so rigid as "gay and lesbian studies." Within the academy, I should tell you that bisexuals have a very hard time. To get tenure, you have to placate the old-school ultra-straight guys from the 1950s as well as that earlier generation of gay scholars who marched and fought against Stone Age psychology, back in the 1970s, and haven't yet moved out of that us/them mode. In a weird way, the straighter-than-thou and the gayer-than-thou scholars get along very well, mostly because their segregated vision of the world means that neither group will pollute the other group's realm of existence. When you're bisexual and going up for tenure, you can count on having freaked out both groups -- and it is often a struggle to get enough votes not to lose your job.

I want to fight against the kind of hard-nosed intolerance that you describe from that professor, but I have to admit, I am in a frighteningly unstable position and I don't know if I am going to get tenure. My publications are viewed as irritating to the die-hard gay and lesbian scholars who wield power over the academy, and to straight guys, well, I'm sort of a freak show.

It might be disappointing, but I should tell you that it takes a long, long process of change, before you see a change in what the prof tells you in the classroom. There has to be a massive shift in the scholarship. There have to be more publications and conference panels that call into question things like what your prof said. And a new generation has to challenge his views.

I'm working on it, but I'm fighting a lonely battle -- please be patient if it takes a while.

Ciao,
J!

Cheers for your inciteful post, not to mention all you're doing. I have a question though, doesn't the "personal is political" slogan apply to our own struggle for recognition that we're bisexual, especially as many people may suffer a "bisexuals exist but you're not one of them" approach?

[Rhuth]

I'm working on it, but I'm fighting a lonely battle -- please be patient if it takes a while.

What can we do to make the battle less lonely? There are bound to be other professors on this site. With what message do you want them to speak up with? Do universities ever respond to loud public demand for certain research? How about funding for research? My daddy annoys the hell out of the dean where he teaches, but he generates so much funding from industry, he has job security up the wazoo! I can't generate as much money as the microchip industry, but I've written several successful grant requests. Imagining that everyone here covers every possible position that could be of assistance to you, who can be of help, and what do you want us to do?

[JohnnyV]

What can we do to make the battle less lonely? There are bound to be other professors on this site. With what message do you want them to speak up with? Do universities ever respond to loud public demand for certain research? How about funding for research? My daddy annoys the hell out of the dean where he teaches, but he generates so much funding from industry, he has job security up the wazoo! I can't generate as much money as the microchip industry, but I've written several successful grant requests. Imagining that everyone here covers every possible position that could be of assistance to you, who can be of help, and what do you want us to do?

Jean Valjean melts with gratitude... Let me think about this for a while, Rhuth. My gut tells me I need to win over the traditional gay and lesbian studies scholars, and that's they key. I have to figure out how to gear a message toward them.

Til then, I will pray to my goddess and life coach to see what answers she whispers back....

Luvvy,
J

[JohnnyV]

Hi everyone,

Since so many people showed me support when I posted this thread I thought I would give a quick update, some 2 weeks later.

I have met with my friend several times since we had our difficult argument about bisexual versus gay rights. We are in agreement about most policies that are under debate at the level of national politics; for instance, I support legalizing gay marriage and ENDAs and everything he asks for. He is participating in an important HIV vaccine study and I have looked into making a large donation to the organization responsible for it.

But despite the breadth of his education and his worldliness (he is fluent in 5 languages and widely respected), he says he will never change his mind about bisexuality. Bisexuals, he says, exist in "subterfuge" and there is no way for them to be valued participants in the struggle for gay rights.

We have agreed never to discuss the question of sexuality or gay rights again, and he's made it very clear that he does not want to know anything about my activities in the bisexual community.

J

[arana]

You know the saying, "He's so smart he's stupid"? You're friend in many ways sounds just like the people he's fighting against. He's stereotyped everyone that is bisexual even though he has you right in front of him, who is an obvious supporter and activist to his cause, proving him wrong. It's like minorities that hate minorities, even their own race based on their degree of darkness in skin tones. It makes no sense, yet it exsists. Why?

[smokey]

The simple reality is that the Gay community hates bi's, even more than straights do. Why? Simple again. Duality. It is so much easier to frame the debate as it were in black/white, straight/gay etc. terms and the fact that most people have a hard time with shades of gray, intellectually anyway. Also they feel threatened by bi's...I honestly believe that they fear (and rightfully so I think) if there was a third acceptable option to just straight/gay, more people would come out as Bi because I do believe that many so called gays are only so because they have been decieved into thinking that was their only choice.

Somewhere I read this statement once and it bears thinking about...I just wish I could remember who said it:

To state that you are gay is to assert an identity. To state you are bi, is to claim your history.

[Cid87]

He reminds me of someone I once knew... He was brilliant in most things, extremely smart.

But when it came to open mindedness he just couldn't compute, I'm sure he would feel the same way about bisexuality. It's like a variable that doesn't fit in the equation to him.

This guy, also brilliant in languages, and most other things, became incredibly stubborn and a complete know-it-all. Probably the most boring person I know of today.

If he says he will never change his mind about bisexuality means he is delibaretly trying to avoid it, may it be because of fear or something else. Even though he would open his mind about I'd guess he wouldn't be able to understand it, it wouldn't "fit in the equation" to him.

However much knowledge this guy has he probably doesn't have much wisdom in himself and wisdom is much more complicated than knowledge. Perhaps that wouldn't compute either?

[Rhuth]

Ya got me thinking with this one, JohnnyV!

So I found another gay activist professor egg head that I rather like a bit better than yours! ;) His name is Kenji Yoshino. He wrote a research paper entitled The Epistemic Contract of Bisexual Erasure. If you want to read the entire 103 pages of his paper you can download the pdf file here (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kenjiyoshino.com%2Farticles%2 Fepistemiccontract.pdf&ei=kHakRLuFHIf4owLLqJj5Cg&sig2=-UO4HiBFKVYBvtClilo5og). However if you prefer a less cerebral summary, you can read an interview of him in the Advocate here (http://old.valleyadvocate.com/articles/biout2.html).

I loved the Advocate article. He brought up some of the things JrzyGuy3 brought up in his own Gay and Lesbian Studies classes. Perhaps his research has some ammunition for you to use in your next argument with your friend. Not sure yet. Still working on it. *pulls out dictionary* Darned eggheads!

/Rhuth

Kenji Yoshino's Webpage (http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/)