Gay Activist Murdered Tuesday, April 17 in Halifax, N.S. Canada

[tenni]

"One night a couple of years ago, Raymond Taavel was on his way home from Menz Bar in Halifax’s north end when a stranger in a pizza place disparaged him for being gay, then whacked him in the head. Mr. Taavel chased the man for several city blocks, determined to collar him, but he got away. When Mr. Taavel told friends about the incident, they were alarmed: If he had caught up to his assailant, he could easily have been beaten.

That relentless desire to fight for LGBT rights was the defining feature of Mr. Taavel’s life, which was cut brutally short in the early hours of Tuesday morning outside Menz Bar. After intervening to stop a dispute, police said, Mr. Taavel was beaten and left to die on the street.

While the motive behind the 49-year-old’s slaying is unclear, it has prompted a country-wide outcry against homophobia as members of the city’s tight-knit gay community remembered Mr. Taavel as a larger-than-life presence."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/gay-activist-killed-in-halifax-assault/article2405273/

The story goes on to state that the man who is accused of killing Raymond Taavel on Tuesday had been on an hour release from a hospital. His lawyer is stating that the accused is not homophobic but "randomly violent".

Still Taavel also had a history of "fighting" for gay rights to the point of chasing someone who attacked him for being gay. Was Taavel overly "overtly "out" and visibly acting with behaviours that drew attention to him? Was he confrontationally out to a point of agitating others? I don't know.

Even in countries where same sex marriage is legal there are homophobic people. There are also people who seem to set themselves up as crusaders. How much responsibility does Taavel have for being attacked? Many will argue none. There is truth to that. There is also sadly truth that those who promote being "out" and active may be a source of their own grief.

I suspect that Taavel was a wonderful human who "fought for gay rights". No one has the right to beat a person to death. No one has a right to strike another person. People do have a right or should have a right to walk down a street and be safe. The fact that Taavel has been attacked more than once before his death indicates something other than just homophobia. I'm not sure what.

Taavel will now be a martyr hero in the Gay community of Halifax. Is he another "martyr hero" like Harvey Milk? Should he be a hero or was he a bit foolish at times?

Either way, rest in peace Raymond Taavel.

[Long Duck Dong]

and the cries of homophobia will ring thru the streets, cos taavel was a gay man and therefore, it was a homophobic crime...... but to me, he was a man that was in the wrong place at the wrong time and unfortunately the cards were not in his favour.... and the fact he was a gay man, may have had nothing to do with what happened.....

live by the sword, die by the sword, comes to mind..... but it arises the question, do we be out and visible or closeted and invisible ? and did being out and visible, cost a man his life ?..... if the cries of homophobia are anything to go by, then yes...... but does the same apply to a soldier on the front line in a firefight ?

let them have their hero, their martyr, their fallen comrade... and their minutes of silence for taavel, cos its a dammed sight more than many non LGBT people get when they suffer the same fate..... and its long past the time that it was safe to walk the streets for many people, regardless of sexuality.....

if I saw a man in the street, needing help, I would help, with fists if need be.... and if I went down, its not bi phobia, its cos I got my ass kicked..... but I have always lived dangerously and played with fire far too much.... and I would hope that the day I go down fighting, that people do not hold it up as biphobia or lgbt bashing, but say honestly.... stupid bastard, what the hell was he trying to be... be rocky balboa ????

[darkeyes]

If homophobia was the reason he was killed then so it should ring through the streets.. if it was, do u still say it was to you he was simply a man in the wrong place at the wrong time? It is a bit of a daft remark because anyone who was murdered was that. I do agree however, that before making a judgement on why he was killed we should await the investigation and any facts and /or charges which come to the fore..

[Long Duck Dong]

if it was indeed a homophobic crime and by that I am referring to the understanding that he was killed because he was a gay man and targeted because he was gay without other reasoning, then yes, it should ring thru the streets...... but it has all the hallmarks of a person that got into too deep and it went wrong... even if he was gay, it doesn't automatically make it a homophobic crime......

to me a homophobic crime is a crime where a person has knowledge of the sexuality and makes it clear that it is part or all of the reason they are targeting the person, IE if I was assaulted outside of a LGBT bar cos I was bi... then it can be a bi phobia crime... but if I was assaulted in my role as a doorman, then the fact that i was bi, doesn't really play a part in it for me......

it is very possible that taavel was visibly gay ( fem ) but something tells me that he was straight acting,... but not knowing the man....

either way, its still a damned shame and I do feel sorry for his family and friends..... its not easy burying a friend that was the victim of a crime that should have never happened.... its something I have done a number of times and it never gets any easier

[darkeyes]

We know what constitutes a homophobic crime Duckie... and one which is biphobic.. no need to teach Grannie 2 suck eggs... but your first post near as damn dismisses the possibility that it could be... live by the sword?? Jeez... sometimes I do wonder just side ur on...

..oh yea.. nobody's..I almost forgot..silly me...

[tenni]

The murder took place outside a gay bar in the middle of what is referred to as the gay village. Taavel broke up a dispute and then was turned on by the accused. I would think that there had to be witnesses including the other persons who were in a dispute. I suspect that the defence argument is that the accused is not mentally competent since he was already in a hospital for killing a dog and his behaviour. They are already claiming that this is not a hate crime. The article also points out that Taavel was well known to "badger" city councillors for more money for the gay pride parade.

Regardless Taavel seems to have been too much of an out (going?) and the type of personality who intervened thinking himself capable of not being impacted.

" live by the sword?? Jeez... sometimes I do wonder just side ur on..."

Yes, several of us do wonder?

[darkeyes]

" live by the sword?? Jeez... sometimes I do wonder just which side ur on..."

Yes, several of us do wonder?
I have never believed this lil ongoing fracas 'tween u an Duckie is entirely ur fault, tenni.. but don't include me in ur seedy lil games..

an forgive the change in ur quote.. my fault originally.. haste.. apologies.. but u got the gist..

[elian]

Hmm, sort of the same debate going on over the Trayvon Martin shooting here in the States..was it racially motivated?, was the shooter just defending himself? Same type of questions - boils down to "why?" and "what happened?"

Personally after listening to the 911 call hearing someone screaming bloody murder for help, and then you hear a gunshot and then you hear nothing at all - I don't know which one was screaming for help, but I know which one had a gun.

My law enforcement friends say that if someone beats you to the point where you feel that you will lose control of your weapon then they will do anything to keep control over the weapon. But this gentleman was told NOT to pursue the boy in the first place..

It's a sad story, for both families I think.

[dafydd]

the word 'crusader' is often heard coming from the lips of people trying to rest easy with their own 'cowardice' - i use that in the broadest sense of the word... if the ones who fight back are 'crazy'...then all the bystanders feel a lot more sane.

[tenni]

the word 'crusader' is often heard coming from the lips of people trying to rest easy with their own 'cowardice' - i use that in the broadest sense of the word... if the ones who fight back are 'crazy'...then all the bystanders feel a lot more sane.

Well, as the person who wrote the word "crusader" and has been guilty of being a "crusader", I remind you dafydd of such things as "sugar" gets you closer to your goal. Speak softly works better (sometime) that shouting etc. Pick your battles and other approaches. I see it sort of like being "out" is the only mantra that is to be used. I like crusaders but some go too far for their own good.

[slipnslide]

I've read a few articles about this now and don't think his sexuality had nothing to do with it. A schizophrenic was allowed out of the hospital when he shouldn't have been and murdered someone.

[tenni]

You may be very correct Slippy. We won't know exactly until the trial. It might be both?

[dafydd]

tenni the guy was fighting for his life. his only crime for some gays and bis was that he acted too 'straight'.
u think they would even be debate if a straight guy went ape shit and fought back at his attackers? he'd get criticised if he didn't. bigots know this. that's why the pick on the gays.

"Still Taavel also had a history of "fighting" for gay rights to the point of chasing someone who attacked him for being gay. Was Taavel overly "overtly "out" and visibly acting with behaviours that drew attention to him? Was he confrontationally out to a point of agitating others? I don't know."

i just think what u said here weighs me down with sadness. i don't agree my friend. i just don't agree.
i ve also had massive success with fighting for LGBT rights over the last 10 years. I do pick my battles. They're the ones that make me shit my pants. i also understand that's not everyones process. and there is room for many ways to tackle prejudice.

Someone called me a crusader once quite perjoratively...8 months later i made legal history for LGBT rights in small tribunal room in Holborn. I was just trying to survive. Didn't have a choice. someone attacks me in the street these days or calls me a faggot, ill go and bash their faces in. no hesitation. its taken a long time to get to that level of courage and insanity. feels great though afterward. and no it doesn't make me a man. but showing shits like that that they don't own ever fag they abuse, that they might think twice next time - it stops them from undermining our dignity, and i don't go spend the next day and half feeling less than human.

[tenni]

daffyd
The article states that he was not fighting back an attacker. He intervened in a dispute outside a gay bar late at night. Taavel was not initially attacked. If he intervened when another person was being attacked then I see your point. I don't know exactly what happened except what was printed. I know that on television that he was revered but then he had just been killed. The article refers to his wrecklessness and spontaneity both the previous approach and that he jumped on a moving bus to get photographed as a lark etc.

Sometimes, being a crusader is important if you believe in the cause. Congratulations on winning your battle. I see now why you react to the word crusader though. I didn't mean it as a perjorative. Sorry if it came across that way. I do suspect that Taavel was overconfident at times and aggressive in his behaviour with others.(badgering councillors to increase funding). It may be a negative biased writer though. As I wrote, I've been a crusader and I stand up for my beliefs. I vote/act by my beliefs rather than take the easy way out. I am/have learned that sometimes other methods are better.

[Long Duck Dong]

We know what constitutes a homophobic crime Duckie... and one which is biphobic.. no need to teach Grannie 2 suck eggs... but your first post near as damn dismisses the possibility that it could be... live by the sword?? Jeez... sometimes I do wonder just side ur on...

..oh yea.. nobody's..I almost forgot..silly me...

no, I am not dismissing the idea that it could be homophobic in nature, the person could have gone to the gay village with the intention of picking a fight with a gay person..... but most people that do that, have a history of homophobic speech and opinions... so that will be something I am looking for in the trial....

at this stage, it reads to me as a mentally ill person that was undergoing treatment, was released on a one hour pass and did not return.... what happened in the guys head, could be a vital clue..... we know where he ended up, that he got into a dispute, and that taavel died as a result..... but the key points for me, is what were the dispute over between the two men, that triggered taavel stepping in..... find out the missing info and you will have more of a case to base a call of homophobia on or not......

saying its homophobia cos a gay man was assaulted and died, is a lil far fetched if nobody can prove that there was clear homophobic intention.....unless the call of homophobia is being used cos it was a gay man that was assaulted and died.... and that is why I made the statement about the soldier and why there is not calls every time a gay soldier dies.....

as for the live by the sword, die by the sword remark..... its in reference to the fact that a person can not aggressively take on people, either in debate, legally or in fights on the street, without it one day, biting them on the ass...... and you should know that, fran, you have talked about the way police have handled you during protests....

I am not convinced that taavel stepping into the dispute, cost him his life, I applaud him for doing that, many people would just watch and do nothing... but taavel stepped in.... however what happened after that, did cost him his life, tragically...... and I say that from personal experience of getting involved in many fights and often the people came back after me later..... the fact that I am still standing, is not a testimony to the fact that I can fight with the best of them, its testimony to the fact that I have been very lucky over the years.... I know of people that have been killed by one hit, including the head master that was killed outside of a pub in NZ, by one * king hit * to the back of the head......

agreed, I do not take sides, so I am not taking any sides, I am waiting for the trial and to see if they can reveal more of what actually happened....

[tenni]

ummm Well, I'm not sure if this is a record but I agree strongly with LDD in post 14.

[pepperjack]

Hmm, sort of the same debate going on over the Trayvon Martin shooting here in the States..was it racially motivated?, was the shooter just defending himself? Same type of questions - boils down to "why?" and "what happened?"

Personally after listening to the 911 call hearing someone screaming bloody murder for help, and then you hear a gunshot and then you hear nothing at all - I don't know which one was screaming for help, but I know which one had a gun.

My law enforcement friends say that if someone beats you to the point where you feel that you will lose control of your weapon then they will do anything to keep control over the weapon. But this gentleman was told NOT to pursue the boy in the first place..

It's a sad story, for both families I think.


Interesting & relevant comparison. The true facts are unclear, even distorted deliberately by some in the media because of personal agendas. Personally, if you listen to the entire 911 call, he appears to comply with the dispatcher by saying ok when told not to pursue( you can actually even hear his labored breathing subside at that point) & then a resigned ..."he ran." Demagoguery has become so fashionable.To this day, there is dissension about who killed JFK & who Jack the Ripper was.

[tenni]

Sorry Elian and Pepperjack, but this is not comparable to the Martin case. Our societies are quite different.

This is an isolated incident of violence although very tragic. The media is mainly reporting facts and no one has disputed them.(I just questioned a bit) The murder just happened on Tuesday. A solemn memorial was held at the site by the GLBT community. There was no gun used. There is no confusion as to guilt at this time. The issues in the Traavel case are going to be more likely focused on mental illness but when all the facts are out Taavel's sexuality may have been a factor. No one has said that Traavel or the accused were using self defence against an attack at this point. No one has said that he was a bouncer(doesn't look like one) or had any authority to intervene. The accused race has not been disclosed. Taavel is a gay man who is 49. No age is given for the accused.

[dafydd]

He was fighting for his life. As we all do..even if we aren't involved in a physical fight. Daily we fight for our lives...the right to be ourselves.
I didn't win a victory for me...there are no individual victories really everyone involved in such cases loses....they weren't just my rights either...
tenni when we fight for our indvidual rights to love who we want..we're also fighting for the rights of everyone on this forum and beyond. it sounds really dramatic, but any fight for survival is, isn't?

d


daffyd
The article states that he was not fighting back an attacker. He intervened in a dispute outside a gay bar late at night. Taavel was not initially attacked. If he intervened when another person was being attacked then I see your point. I don't know exactly what happened except what was printed. I know that on television that he was revered but then he had just been killed. The article refers to his wrecklessness and spontaneity both the previous approach and that he jumped on a moving bus to get photographed as a lark etc.

Sometimes, being a crusader is important if you believe in the cause. Congratulations on winning your battle. I see now why you react to the word crusader though. I didn't mean it as a perjorative. Sorry if it came across that way. I do suspect that Taavel was overconfident at times and aggressive in his behaviour with others.(badgering councillors to increase funding). It may be a negative biased writer though. As I wrote, I've been a crusader and I stand up for my beliefs. I vote/act by my beliefs rather than take the easy way out. I am/have learned that sometimes other methods are better.

[tenni]

dafydd
I can agree with you about individual rights even without knowing the specifics that you were fighting(crusading) for. Unfortunately, the words "individual rights" are also used by some to defend their bigotry towards mariginalized people. (ie certain fundi Christians argue that their individual rights are being denied over same sex marriage issues). It isn't but they use this term "my rights" "my individual rights". Knowing what I know of you, I can believe that you were fighting /crusading for the rights of individuals who are non heterosexuals.

In the case of Taavel, the reports indicate that it was his attitude towards life that made him take risks that others found dangerous to himself. He may have seen himself as invisible crusader. His judgement about how/when to act may have played a role in his death.