Dan Savage, Harvey Milk and the Closet

[Brian]

I've been thinking about this for the last couple of weeks since a few threads on Dan Savage were started...

One of the problems he seems to have with bisexuals, which I think causes him to dismiss bisexuality, is he seems to feel we are not pulling our weight with respect to being out of the closet. As much as I loath the guy's unscientific, anti-factual, dramaqueen dismissal of bisexuality, I wonder if he might have a point. But first some assumptions...

4730Assumption 1: Harvey Milk's earth-shattering idea (at least it was for me, when I first heard it) was that the best thing that a GLBT person could do for GLBT rights was come out of the closet. By coming out of the closet it shows that we are really just normal people - we are not pedophiles and deviants and criminally-inclined. It shatters the stigma around homosexuality. Straight people see that we are not that different from them and therefore discriminating against us is absurd. Coming out in significant numbers takes what is an invisible minority and turns it into a visible minority, and with that comes support from many, many people for equal rights. So assumption number 1 is that coming out of the closet is good for the rights of GLBT people, and sexual rights of all people.



"Gay brothers and sisters,... You must come out. Come out... to your parents... I know that it is hard and will hurt them but think about how they will hurt you in the voting booth! Come out to your relatives... come out to your friends... if indeed they are your friends. Come out to your neighbors... to your fellow workers... to the people who work where you eat and shop... come out only to the people you know, and who know you. Not to anyone else. But once and for all, break down the myths, destroy the lies and distortions. For your sake. For their sake. For the sake of the youngsters who are becoming scared by the votes from Dade to Eugene."

- Harvey Milk, 1978


Assumption 2: Bisexual folks are more inclined to remain in the closet. I tried to find data to support this assumption, but I couldn't. It will be interesting to see if the 2012 GLBT census (http://www.lgbt2012census.com/) eventually supports this assumption (I would be shocked if it doesn't). I think it is the traditional thinking however that bisexual folks are in the closet in greater numbers (proportions) than folks who identify as gay.

So *if* these two assumptions are true, is it fair criticism to say that bisexuals (as a group) are not pulling our weight with respect to GLBT rights? Or is that a too-negative way to look at it?

But even if it is true and fair to say, is there a flip-side to the coin for many bisexual men and women? For some of us, is coming out just not an option? Would it end our marriage, cost us our family, cost us our job, or result in us effectively having to leave our communities? Is that a personal scrifice that is just too much for many bisexuals? And does Dan Savage's dismissal of bisexuality effectively make this situation even worse? What is the greater benefit to GLBT rights if you come out only to have a science-denying ass like Dan Savage tell you that you are in state of denial, a teenesque psychological limbo, before you really come to grips with being just "gay"? Does Savage make the situation a self-feeding loop: bisexuals remaining in the closet rather than come out as bisexual and be dismissed by the likes of Savage? Does Dan Savage live in a gay enclave of the mind where bisexuality is just a temporary state of confusion and coming out involves only a small sacrifice that is not the reality for many bisexuals?

What do you think?

- Drew :paw:

Reference:

http://youtu.be/p2sIf_sVYuc

[tenni]

I don't know. The one thing that I do know about myself is that I am probably not filling out the GLBT census. I don't feel any affinity to the GLBT group or organizations. It means nothing to me. I see it only for Gays & lesbians. Then again, on a happier day I may feel differently.

If there are no rights specifically about being bisexual why should we be involved with the GLBT group?

Why should we fill out "their" census?

What country is this census for or all countries?

Sorry if I am being negative but some of the threads are very disappointing to make any bisexual(well me) work for anything connected to these GLBT groups. I'd rather that bisexuals be on their own. Then again, I think that it may be true that some/a lot of bis don't care. I guess that I'm a prime candidate for feeling disenfranchised and don't know what or where to look.

[unicorn_factory]

Actually, I totally disagree. I feel no need whatsoever of advertising my sexuality, and I wonder if the whole coming out thing has more to do with effeminate affectation in the gay community, that might not exist as much among bisexuals.

[slipnslide]

Actually, I totally disagree. I feel no need whatsoever of advertising my sexuality, and I wonder if the whole coming out thing has more to do with effeminate affectation in the gay community, that might not exist as much among bisexuals.

I agree. My sexuality is just one of hundreds of points of identify that I don't advertise.


We need to abandon the notion that "in the closet" is somehow bad. You owe nothing to anyone when it comes to your sexuality. Full-disclosure is not a requirement. "In the closet" has taken on the suggestion that there is something wrong with you, and you must confess your sins.

There is something more dignified about a bisexual person who keeps their sexuality, like their sex life, as a private issue than one who needs to advertise it.

In Canada, the era for political activism about sexuality is over. It's been settled. Be bi, be gay, the law is on your side. Attend a Pride event. No one can oppress you for reasons of sexuality. That's what Harvey Milk was after, and it's been settled in a lot of places.


is it fair criticism to say that bisexuals (as a group) are not pulling our weight with respect to GLBT rights?

Drew - In Canada, what right do you not have as a bisexual person?

[Brian]

You raise some very interesting points slipnslide. I respect 100% what you and the others are saying.

Some counterpoints come to mind, but first maybe I should explain where I am personally relative to the closet... I am single, middle-aged and have no kids. I am out to my immediate family (parents and siblings), and out to my closest friends. I have no idea if my extended family knows - someone may have told them, it never comes up. I came out about 6 or 7 years ago - it just felt like it was time, the closet felt like a burden. I am a private contractor working out of my home so I have no real coworkers to come out to. Some of my online coworkers know (mainly because of operating this site). My neighbours and acquaintances don't know I am bi - it just never comes up. But if they found out, my reaction would be "meh". Everyone I sleep with knows I am bi. Like many of you I don't "advertise" my sexual orientation. So I guess in summary I am more or less out of the closet, but perhaps it is not inaccurate to say I have one foot still in it.

The counterpoints...

You are right. I have it pretty good here in Canada as far as protection from discrimination based on my sexual orientation, but:
a) I am part of a global community where not all geographical areas have it as good.
b) Rights do get eroded without vigilance. For example, who would have guessed 20 years ago that birth control and abortion rights would be nibbled away at in 2012 in the US to such a degree as is happening.
c) The fight is not completely won in Canada. Sexual discrimination cases still happen. I live in "Texas North" - the bible belt of Canada - although rare, discrimination based on sexual orientation still happens here and elsewhere in Canada.
d) Just because I have it so good doesn't mean that the Harvey Milk principle is no longer valid. I think the argument can still be made that coming out has benefits that extend to others, if only to guarantee equality ongoing. A community with 1 police officer and no crime doesn't mean that the police officer provides no benefit to the community - as a matter of fact it might demonstrate the benefit.
e) Looking back, do we owe a thanks to those who have come out? Are we where we are because of people coming out? And is that part of where Savage is coming from?

I want to say I respect those of you who are completely, or mostly, in the closet. I agree that people should do whatever is best for them, on this topic - put your family, and happiness and life first. Do what you feel is best for those you love. I think this is a fascinating topic (a mix of sociology, politics, human rights and sex - my fave topics), which is the only reason I bring it up. I have no ulterior motive. I guess I am also a bit of a contrarian - if a guy like Savage, who I think is so wrong, has a valid point, I am tempted to give him a little bit of credit.

- Drew :paw:

[_someone_]

Actually, I totally disagree. I feel no need whatsoever of advertising my sexuality, and I wonder if the whole coming out thing has more to do with effeminate affectation in the gay community, that might not exist as much among bisexuals.
Word.

The sexuality is just one of many things about a person's character, and there's not really much of a legit point in the "pride" of it in my opinion. To me it's something that can be said as a fact, but doesn't need to be a point of either pride or shame. That said, I could understand the idea of a community and if the people closest would accept it, then by all means that can't be too bad.

Good point, slip, as well.

[keladry]

But we aren't advertising our sexuality, we're advertising... Listen the trick is this with coming out. When you're gay and you come out and date a man, no one asks, so what are you bi? I've met the most amazing girl and so I must be a lesbian. When I tell people I've met this girl they mostly assume that I'm a lesbian. So I think part of the problem of bi-invisibilty is that it's invisible by nature. Most of us end up in opposite sex pairings (of course we do the dating pool is larger on the opposite sex side than the same sex side, it's pretty simple math on that) and even the ones who end up in same sex pairings typically get put into the gay/lesbian category. It's *harder* for us to come out and stay out. Because most of us end up in monogamous relationships.

All that being said, we do need to come out. But I do think it's important to recognize that it's harder for us to come and stay out than it might be for others in the community. Because of the nonobviousness of our orientation just by the partner that we have. I'm coming out right now, a process that is both too slow and too rapid for my liking. Coming out is important. I'm going to tell my parents today, if I can manage it (probably not, but there is always tomorrow : ] ). For me it's not so much about who I am sexually attracted to, but wanting to have the right to marry whomever of whichever sex I end up with at the end of the day. So do I want people wondering what I'm doing in the bedroom? Not really... do I want my dad to know when he says that bisexuals aren't really attracted to both sexes they are just so desperate for sex they'll fuck anything, that he's talking about me? And that he's wrong, that at the very least I know for sure one bisexual isn't like that? Of course I do. I'm obligated to tell him because if I won't then who? How much easier will if be to tell him he's wrong from personal experience than from hypotheticals, how much harder he'll have to try to change his views when it's his own daughter. OF COURSE we need to come out.

[drugstore cowboy]

Drew keep in mind that Dan Savage is a bigot and he's been and continues to be biphobic, practice bisexual erasure, he's racist towards African Americans, and he's still highly transphobic too. He conveniently ignores the bisexuals like myself and others who have been out about being bisexual for decades, and that many of us were out as bisexual long before younger gay men like him were even out and when most gay men were completely closeted, not out, and married to women. He also does not understand bisexuality and refuses to admit that teenagers and young men can be bisexual, and doesn't understand that a lot of bisexuals at first or at a time in their life have identified as gay men or lesbian women before discovering that we're bisexual. His whole snakeoil media sham of "it gets better" was done not to help LGBT youth but to get Dan Savage a reality TV show on MTV and telling LGBT and hetero kids in highschool to just put up with bullying, repeat the mantra of "It gets better" and watch a youtube video instead of taking real action is ignoring their issues completely but he'll gladly take our money and be a media whore who talks out of his ass.

[Long Duck Dong]

I have done the 2012 census, it covers aspects of bisexuality that other bisexuals have denied in the site , such as men that have sex with men and women as sex with women, l...... so yes its covering bisexuality as a sexuality in itself and offshoots of bisexuality as well.... and it is a world wide census...... so I did it as any input by bisexuals is helping show that bisexuality is real..... however what I find interesting is that some bisexuals have not done a census that could further assist with fighting the bi invisibility that they crow about.... and in doing so, do the very thing they complain about... make bisexuality invisible

its a anonymous census.... but a important one.......

I am out and open as a bisexual person... not to push bisexual issues and to cry bi phobia at every remark, but cos I have been known as bisexual for so many years that people generally do not react to finding out I am bisexual... its become a non issue....

the advantage for me, being out and a bisexual, is that its created a sort of niche where I have become I type of *go to * for a number of organisations and groups that share interests with me, and I am more than happy to give them hard, cold facts about issues and problems..... and one of the many issues is that there is not so much a lack of support for bisexuals,... its that there is a lack of bisexuals to support, cos of the many bisexuals that are closeted / out only to whom they need to be out to..... so there is not really the numbers to make a valid call for more bisexual support as a separate sexuality....

as for dan savage, well I do not really take make notice of him.... he is one person with a mouth..... and people will always take issue with something he says...... but the thing is he is visibly saying it... a lot of his naysayers are retaliating by posting comments and threads in forums...... rather than standing up and becoming visible people that are taking on dan savage on his own terms.....

[tenni]

"We need to abandon the notion that "in the closet" is somehow bad."

Slippy I agree with you to some extent here.

WHAT IF COMING OUT IS A GAY THING? .....not a bisexual thing.

If you are in a relationship with opposite gender, why does it matter? If you are in a relationship with opposite gender and have sex with same gender. Why does it matter who knows except the people involved with you sexually.

If you are bisexual and in a same sex relationship where you live together, maybe there is a reason to come out.

As far as not being out and fighting Bi Invisibility and Bi Erasure, I'm all for that. If some person questions me about my sexuality under those circumstance, I 'd say that I'm bisexual. That would be a reason for me to come out.

Yep
I think coming out is a gay thing...lol Like a few things about bisexuality it is not a one way(out) or another (in the closet)

I recall many years ago in art school we had a female life(nude) model for three months(3 hours twice a week). She said once. If a woman calls let me know that's my girlfriend. If a man calls for me, that's my husband. Tell him that I'm busy. A bisexual woman before I knew about the word..lol She didn't say that she was bisexual or anything. I thought that she was just a free spirit as a lot of artist models are.

[MarieDelta]

I dont come out as bi, I come out as "queer." That says everything and nothing. It says I am part of a sexual minority bu it doesn't say what part I am. Also I'd like to point out that coming out isn't about sex all the time. For some people it is , and I respect that, but not for everyone all the time. The more we hide the more people can paint u as bogey men and women. Paint us as creeps and perverts that want to do unspeakable things. If they know us , know about who we are and who we love , that isnt so easy.

Who says sex is dirty/bad/wrong? That's not sex positive at all. I'd rather deal with this from a sex positive place. Not one of shame and fear.

Now I respect that many of you have too much to lose. But some of us have no choice but to be out in our communities.

Last but not least, the bi community isn't the only one who feels that this thing we call the GLBTQI is not working for them. I've heard it from gay males, lesbians, trans people, and queer people. There really is only one solution to that - get involved. If you aren't part of the solution , you are part of the problem. Sitting back and letting others do the work doesn't get the job done to your satisfaction. So you don't have to attend pride or advertise that you are gay (or queer.) There are other things that need done go do them.

[drugstore cowboy]

I have done the 2012 census, it covers aspects of bisexuality that other bisexuals have denied in the site , such as men that have sex with men and women as sex with women, but the thing is he is visibly saying it... a lot of his naysayers are retaliating by posting comments and threads in forums...... rather than standing up and becoming visible people that are taking on dan savage on his own terms..... Actually terms like MSM and WSW (men who have sex with men/Women who have sex with women) are just terms for gay or bisexual men, and lesbian and bisexual women who are closeted or in denial of their sexuality. They're not some separate sexuality from being bisexual or gay/lesbian at all. Secondly, a lot of us bisexuals, myself included actually have been out and visible, and we've posted comments on Savage's articles and posted on our sites and other places about being bisexual and how Savage is FOS when it comes to bisexuality, trans people, how he's racist, and a media whore who just likes to run his mouth. People who make up excuses such as "My sexuality is nobody's business except the people who I'm having sex with!" or "There's no need to come out as bisexual unless maybe you are in a relationship with someone of the same gender!" are living in fear and trapped in the closet.

[dafydd]

Actually, I totally disagree. I feel no need whatsoever of advertising my sexuality, and I wonder if the whole coming out thing has more to do with effeminate affectation in the gay community, that might not exist as much among bisexuals. huh? even the most screeming queen who is out has got more balls than a closeted lumberjack. what do you mean 'advertising' sexuality? people who are 'out', advertise courage and resilience, better that than to advocate remaining hidden, that simply advertises your internalised homophobia. what is effiminate affection? and is it wrong? um u are homosexual too remember....

[slipnslide]

Actually terms like MSM and WSW (men who have sex with men/Women who have sex with women) are just terms for gay or bisexual men, and lesbian and bisexual women who are closeted or in denial of their sexuality. They're not some separate sexuality from being bisexual or gay/lesbian at all.

No one ever claimed they're separate sexualities. If anything they are far more descriptive than the arbitrary and vague "bisexual" label. You can't even get bisexuals to agree on what bisexual means.

MSM is pretty clear though, and I'm all about clarity so I like it.

[tenni]

" There are other things that need done go do them."

What "things" need to be done? Please, list some that apply to bisexuals alone.

[dafydd]

Drew keep in mind that Dan Savage is a bigot and he's been and continues to be biphobic, practice bisexual erasure, he's racist towards African Americans, and he's still highly transphobic too. He conveniently ignores the bisexuals like myself and others who have been out about being bisexual for decades, and that many of us were out as bisexual long before younger gay men like him were even out and when most gay men were completely closeted, not out, and married to women. He also does not understand bisexuality and refuses to admit that teenagers and young men can be bisexual, and doesn't understand that a lot of bisexuals at first or at a time in their life have identified as gay men or lesbian women before discovering that we're bisexual. His whole snakeoil media sham of "it gets better" was done not to help LGBT youth but to get Dan Savage a reality TV show on MTV and telling LGBT and hetero kids in highschool to just put up with bullying, repeat the mantra of "It gets better" and watch a youtube video instead of taking real action is ignoring their issues completely but he'll gladly take our money and be a media whore who talks out of his ass. hi DC, Were you aware that your pics arent showing on your profile? might be a glitch. dont tell me u dont want pics on ur profile.....oh?.....its just that ur comments just seem so strange if u were someone who didnt want to be identified as a bisexual. no matter his views at least Savage is prepared to be accounatble for them as a homosexual in public. ur criticisms of his public profile would be less undermined if u could do the same. d

[Long Duck Dong]

Actually terms like MSM and WSW (men who have sex with men/Women who have sex with women) are just terms for gay or bisexual men, and lesbian and bisexual women who are closeted or in denial of their sexuality. They're not some separate sexuality from being bisexual or gay/lesbian at all. Secondly, a lot of us bisexuals, myself included actually have been out and visible, and we've posted comments on Savage's articles and posted on our sites and other places about being bisexual and how Savage is FOS when it comes to bisexuality, trans people, how he's racist, and a media whore who just likes to run his mouth. People who make up excuses such as "My sexuality is nobody's business except the people who I'm having sex with!" or "There's no need to come out as bisexual unless maybe you are in a relationship with someone of the same gender!" are living in fear and trapped in the closet.

I said I have done the 2012 census, it covers aspects of bisexuality that other bisexuals have denied in the site , such as men that have sex with men and women as sex with women, l...... so yes its covering bisexuality as a sexuality in itself and offshoots of bisexuality as well

I did not say They're some separate sexuality from being bisexual or gay/lesbian

could you please read a lil better

I said as for dan savage, well I do not really take make notice of him.... he is one person with a mouth..... and people will always take issue with something he says...... but the thing is he is visibly saying it... a lot of his naysayers are retaliating by posting comments and threads in forums...... rather than standing up and becoming visible people that are taking on dan savage on his own terms.....

if you want to go and spam websites with dan savage BS, go for it... I am kinda thinking that he is not reading it.... and the only time that he really takes any notice is when people take him on, on his own turf.... cos he can not really ignore that like he can ignore 10k posts about how he is a dickhead, posted on other sites......



btw, you have not provided the name of the bisexual transwoman that you refer to in other threads, in regards to stonewall and the movement that started from it...... and I have asked in other threads..... now owing to the fact that I can still not find any info about this person ... can you please give me a name so that way I can find out more about this alternative version of events ? cos you seem to be the only person that knows anything about this person......

[Gearbox]

How do people tell an 'out bi' from a 'closeted bi'? Truth is, unless you go around telling people you are bi, nobody would know. So there's probably far more 'out bi's' than is noted.
Gays are far better at projecting 'Gay' to all around, using body language, 'gay speak', and being camp. Which fits with the stereotypical gay. There isn't a stereotypical bi though. Not in public anyway.Lol

'Straight acting gays' have the same problem. They are just not stereotypical enough to seem 'gay'. They get chatted up by women because they LOOK straight, no matter if their out or closeted. Unless they are with another man holding hands etc.
Bi's just don't look bi.:bigrin:

If every bi on the planet came out, there would be no difference visually. We couldn't just act more bi, like some gays act 'more gay'. We'd have to go around saying "I'm bi you know?", with any excuse to people who don't give a damn.lol
BUT bisexuality itself would be more visible. It would be another sexuality to consider while judging anybodies sexuality. It would also help the young bi's who find that they don't fit with hetero or homosexuality.
Bi jewellery might be a good start. Because FFS we could at least be out to each other!:suave:

Oh yes...PS Dan Savage is a dick.lol

[MarieDelta]

" There are other things that need done go do them."

What "things" need to be done? Please, list some that apply to bisexuals alone.

Get involved with your local PFLAG as a bi man

Get involved with your local glbt org as a bi man

Get involved with a setting up a bisexual support group (that isn't a creepy way to pick up on people)

Get involved with your local sex positive group , or set one up as a bi man

Get involved with setting up a bi political awareness study group

Speak up when someone degrades someone else as being bi

These are things only things a bi person could do. If one kid knew that being bi was an option, didn't have to be a "stage" wouldn't that help things? If someones parents knew that a person could turn out to be somewhat successful and bi at the same time , wouldn't that change things? If people knew one person in their everyday lives that stood up and said that gay bashing (or straight bashing or trans bashing) was wrong, wouldn't that help?

[drugstore cowboy]

I said I have done the 2012 census, it covers aspects of bisexuality that other bisexuals have denied in the site , such as men that have sex with men and women as sex with women, l...... so yes its covering bisexuality as a sexuality in itself and offshoots of bisexuality as well I did not say They're some separate sexuality from being bisexual or gay/lesbian could you please read a lil better btw, you have not provided the name of the bisexual transwoman that you refer to in other threads, in regards to stonewall and the movement that started from it...... and I have asked in other threads..... now owing to the fact that I can still not find any info about this person ... can you please give me a name so that way I can find out more about this alternative version of events ? cos you seem to be the only person that knows anything about this person...... You yourself have said many times before on this site how "Men who have sex with men" or "MSM" and "Women who have sex with women" or "WSW" are two completely different sexualities and somehow separate from bisexuals and gay men/lesbian women. A lot of bisexual men and gay men do not like the term MSM at all because it de-queers bisexual and gay men and reduces us to a statistic. It's not a simple term at all like Slippy wants to pretend it is since a "MSM" could be a bisexual man or a gay man, or as researchers use the term it's just another term for someone who is a bisexual man, gay man, but closeted or in denial about his sexuality which is anything but heterosexual. Men who have sex with men (abbreviated as MSM) are male persons who engage in sexual activity with members of the same sex, regardless of how they identify themselves; many men choose not to (or cannot for other reasons) accept sexual identities of homosexual or bisexual.The term was created in the 1990s by epidemiologists in order to study the spread of disease among men who have sex with men, regardless of identity. The bisexual Transwoman who started Stonewall was named Sylvia Rivera other people on this site have written about her.

[tenni]

Thanks Marie re: post 19
My initial reaction is anger to what you posted...hmm

I can not stand GLBT organizations and you want me to join them? Why? I don't know what is needed to be done for CISbisexual men.

I do agree that I would speak up when someone degrades a bisexual. It just doesn't happen in my artsie circles at all. There is not really anything derogatory said. Even gay artists do not talk a lot about sexuality. They talk about issues if it comes up in context with others issues. My gay friends do not denegrate bisexuals. However, some gays that want to have sex with me change their mind when they find out I'm bisexual.

I would become involved in a bi political actions but not qualified to set one up. I asked the question what needs to be done. I don't find being told to take a leadership role in something that I do not understand very helpful. Your list may work for you but it angers or frustrates me. That is my problem. I will think about it. Maybe you relate to these terms and approaches and I don't. I have no idea what a "sex positive group" is. I know what "art speak" is. I don't know what "queer speak" is if that is what I'm picking up from what your wrote. I simply do not relate.

Thank you anyway for your opinion and view. I will continue to reach out to some bisexual men that I've met but I think that I and probably them are floundering.

[Long Duck Dong]

You yourself have said many times before on this site how "Men who have sex with men" or "MSM" and "Women who have sex with women" or "WSW" are two completely different sexualities and somehow separate from bisexuals and gay men/lesbian women. A lot of bisexual men and gay men do not like the term MSM at all because it de-queers bisexual and gay men and reduces us to a statistic. It's not a simple term at all like Slippy wants to pretend it is since a "MSM" could be a bisexual man or a gay man, or as researchers use the term it's just another term for someone who is a bisexual man, gay man, but closeted or in denial about his sexuality which is anything but heterosexual. The bisexual Transwoman who started Stonewall was named Sylvia Rivera other people on this site have written about her.


actually I have said that they are people who choose not to live under the label of bisexuality and homosexuality..... as I respect the right of people to see themselves by whatever label works for them.... but then again... thats acceptance and tolerance of people and I keep forgetting that we are only supposed to pay lip service to that, unless we are bemoaning the fact that people are not being accepting and tolerant of us, while we stick the boot into everybody.....

as for Sylvia Rivera... I am a lil confused here.... you are saying she started stonewall, but in the powerful short film thread, you stated that she was the reason for the start of the stonewall riots..... in the interviews by Sylvia rivera, she talks about being present at stonewall on the night, and how she was being led to the police vans as the rioting started..... most other accounts generally refer to another female being clubbed, as the beginning of the riot...... and even Sylvia herself, has said that people were at the point of they were tired of the BS by the cops so there was a number of different *sparks * that ignited that night......

what Sylvia Rivera did do, was after the riots, help with founding some of the groups like the GLF ( which later imploded cos of internal fighting )

you appear to have a habit of trying to *rewrite history * near every time you post something......and claiming things have been said by people that they never said....

[drugstore cowboy]

as for Sylvia Rivera... I am a lil confused here.... you are saying she started stonewall, but in the powerful short film thread, you stated that she was the reason for the start of the stonewall riots..... in the interviews by Sylvia rivera, she talks about being present at stonewall on the night, and how she was being led to the police vans as the rioting started..... most other accounts generally refer to another female being clubbed, as the beginning of the riot...... and even Sylvia herself, has said that people were at the point of they were tired of the BS by the cops so there was a number of different *sparks * that ignited that night...... what Sylvia Rivera did do, was after the riots, help with founding some of the groups like the GLF ( which later imploded cos of internal fighting ) you appear to have a habit of trying to *rewrite history * near every time you post something......and claiming things have been said by people that they never said.... Actually no I'm not rewriting history or claiming things that were never said. I can't help you with your confusion. Do you even read what you write and what you're replying to before you hit the post button? I'm not the only one on this site who gets tired of your posts with frequent major contradictions, circular logic, non-sequturs that have nothing to do with the question or topic at all but your own agendas or issues, and failed arguments which make no sense at all.
Text taken from here: glbtq.com/social-sciences/rivera_s.html On June 27, 1969, Rivera was in the crowd that gathered outside the Stonewall Inn after word spread that it had been raided by police. The sight of arrested patrons being led from the bar by authorities riled the crowd, but it was Rivera who threw one of the first Molotov cocktails that actually initiated the riots and sent Stonewall into the history books.

[Long Duck Dong]

ok drugstore.......

I am confused here... is that a gay and lesbian website that would be one of the gay and lesbian groups that you have claimed are trying to rewrite history by claiming that it was the gay people that started the riot...... or is it a gay and lesbian website that is saying that sylvia is a bisexual transwoman and it was not the gays and lesbians that started the riots.... or is it a LGBT website so there for both versions of the story are correct and that sylvia is still lying when she says she did not start the riots.....

sylvia riveria herself, is saying that the version of events you claim, is incorrect.. in a interview.....

http://redalyc.uaemex.mx/redalyc/pdf/377/37719106.pdf

( bottom left side of page 119 top right side of 119 ) I have been given the credit by many historians for throwing the first molotov cocktail, I didn't I threw the second one........

it doesn't say that she started the stonewall riots like you claim.... and if you read the first few pages, she talks about being part of the GROUP that were throwing pennies and nickels at the cops.... but it was others that were already starting to riot....

so either your website and info is wrong... or sylvia is not telling the truth about her own actions on that night..... and based on the fact that you are constantly telling everybody else they are wrong cos you read something that they never said..... then sylvia must be lying....

trouble is most people are not going to believe that ... or you....

[Long Duck Dong]

Get involved with your local PFLAG as a bi man

Get involved with your local glbt org as a bi man

Get involved with a setting up a bisexual support group (that isn't a creepy way to pick up on people)

Get involved with your local sex positive group , or set one up as a bi man

Get involved with setting up a bi political awareness study group

Speak up when someone degrades someone else as being bi

These are things only things a bi person could do. If one kid knew that being bi was an option, didn't have to be a "stage" wouldn't that help things? If someones parents knew that a person could turn out to be somewhat successful and bi at the same time , wouldn't that change things? If people knew one person in their everyday lives that stood up and said that gay bashing (or straight bashing or trans bashing) was wrong, wouldn't that help?


I would add, being out and visible to friends and family as it gives them a visible reference as to some bisexual behievour, other than the * fake * portrayal of people in the media....

become a *lifeline * for others to contact that are closeted or confused... so that they have somebody to turn if they need somebody to talk with as a friend, not a bed buddy......

if a person is willing and has the money, they could become a *silent partner * in a bi support group... helping with things like a location to meet, advertising that group etc etc

there are a lot of avenues that are open for people that are out and visible and also not out / closeted and not wishing to come out, but wanting to make a difference for the bisexual community.....

bisexual.com is a perfect example of how drew created a place for so many people, yet if we were to walk past drew in the street, we would have no idea it was drew.... but his contribution to the bisexual community is immeasurable in terms of the number of people that call this place * home *

[æonpax]

`
Prologue – Up until recently, I’ve never paid much attention to Dan Savage. I’ve always considered him to be the equivalent of Rush Limbaugh insofar that both prey upon the already established biases and prejudices of their targeted audience and neither rely on facts or research, unless such things can be used to reinforce their point of view…”Confirmation bias.”




I’ve been reading some of Savage’s articles and have to admit, he uses logic to his advantage and can be quite convincing. I almost found myself agreeing with many of the things he wrote. Fortunately, I am grounded by something called “reality” and its cousin, “facts” and in a world full of lies and misinformation, one can be easily mislead.

Savage’s use of logic fills in a void where facts either do not exist or are incomplete. The community of Bisexuality is so vast and multifaceted, that it practically invites those with vivid imaginations and a misguided ax to grind against bisexuals, to make up their own terminology to distance themselves from the reality that bisexuality, which is a sexual and/or physical attraction for the same gender. Heteroflexibility is such a contrived and semantic term that attempts to skirt the Bisexual definition. (see ~ http://www.salon.com/2000/11/15/heteroflexibility/ ~)

In this article, ( ~ http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bisexuals/Content?oid=8743322 ~ ) Savage uses an old logical fallacy by shifting the onus of proof. He makes a lot of assumptions, without evidence, then claims to be right by challenging Bisexuals to prove he’s wrong. I’ve seen this same logic used in religion, by those who say; God Exists because the bible says so…prove me wrong.

Dr. Carl Sagan once said; "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." The only way to dispel the myths and half-truths, in this case being promulgated by the likes of Dan Savage, is to meet them head-on with the truth, based on facts and evidence, not wild assumptions based on faulty logic. Let’s face it though, this requires strict academic research and the unbiased regime that only money can obtain, lots of it. This is why the LGBT and government should be behind this kind of funding.



Epilogue - Savages entire argument about bisexuals is based on “coming out.” However, he seems to live in a fantasy world where there is not a “real and present danger” to ones self and family by coming out. He errs on the same level that Harvey Milk does. Given the current rise in anti-gay rhetoric from the far Christian right in the US, the ideology may be sound but over time, has proved to be deadly. Just ask Emille Griffith, Rebecca Wight, Scott Amedure, Lawrence King, Duanna Johnson and Matthew Shepard and all the other heroes and heroines what being visible gets you.

[Jason0012]

First, I will never forgive him for coining the term "bromance". He should be expelled from the human race for that alone! But now I think I actually hate the man. I am floored by the arrogance of assuming that his experiance is the same as everyone elses. Following that logic I suppose I should start assuming that there is no such thing as heterosexuals or homosexuals since everyone must obviously have the potential for both, right ?

[Brian]

In Canada, the era for political activism about sexuality is over. It's been settled. Be bi, be gay, the law is on your side. Attend a Pride event. No one can oppress you for reasons of sexuality. That's what Harvey Milk was after, and it's been settled in a lot of places. Drew - In Canada, what right do you not have as a bisexual person?

Slipnslide, I've been thinking more about what you said there...

I think Savage lives in a gay bubble ("a gay enclave of the mind") by failing to incorporate the standpoints and experiences of a diverse bisexual demographic into his world view, and thus having a distorted view of reality.

But I wonder if there can be a bisexual bubble, or a closet bubble, too. You imply that the fight is over, and therefore any broader community benefits to coming out are null and void. But I think our out gay brothers and sisters have a different experience. There is still a lot of animosity out there to homosexuality/bisexuality. Many bisexuals are insulated from it though. I have never been in a gay bar. I have never held hands with, or kissed, a same-sex lover in public - many other bisexuals might say the same. So we don't have the same experience as gay people who perhaps have had taunts yelled at them from across the street, late at night, and felt the fear that such a thing might escalate beyond that to violence. I bet in virtually every city in the english world, on any given Friday or Saturday night, something like what I described above happens outside a gay bar. And most of us have not had to wonder... could my out homosexuality impair my advancement at work in subtle ways that could never be proven in court? And then of course there is same-sex marriage too - the fight for rights has just begun there in most of the world.

The closet protects us (bisexuals) from many of these experiences and injustices. We should be careful to not weigh our own personal experiences too heavily then and downplay what is going on out there to those who are right out there.

In short, I think the experience of our out gay brothers and sisters might be very different than the experience of many of us bisexuals. And I think we make a mistake to ignore their experience - to view the world from a bisexual bubble - when we do that we do exactly the equivalent of what Savage has done to create a distorted view of the world in his own mind. I think we need to challenge each other to ensure we do not encase our reasoning in gay and bisexual bubbles.

- Drew :paw:

[Long Duck Dong]

drew, you raise some interesting points there.... as in the past, having being a employer, I am very very well aware of the loopholes in the anti discrimination laws of new zealand and how I could use them to to make advancement hard for a employee... and how a lot of favouritism is involved in climbing the ladder.....

one thing I have noticed amongst my gay friends as opposed to my bi friends, is that my gay friends will say that being gay is not a choice, being bisexual is.... cos a bisexual can hide within the safety of the heterosexual community and still be out as bisexual... a gay person can not cos they will always stand out...... and they do not mean it as people can choose their sexuality, but as they can choose how they can be visible or invisible within society.....

1) a gay person has the choice of be out or not.... and it will affect their whole life, not just whom they have permission to sleep with, after talking to their partner about opening the relationship

2) many gay people are who they are, fem, butch etc etc.... and a lot of their personality and mannerism is them 24/7.... bisexuals can often shift between a fem / mas persona for the short term periods within the safety of the bedroom ......

3) most bisexual people may never feel the sting of the public backlash simply cos they are who they are..... but its something that a lot of gay people I have spoken to, have said that it is always been a part of their lives.......

thats not to downplay what some bisexuals have had to deal with...... cos I know that some bisexuals have had it rough as hell as well.......

definitely, our reality is not always the reality of others..... and while the fight for rights in NZ is over for the majority of people.... the fight just to get out of bed in the morning and smile, knowing that today is another day of trying to deal with the fact our own family refuses to accept us, is something that may never change for some bi and gay people..... and its them that my heart really goes out to, when it comes to people fighting for acceptance and tolerance in society, cos the people that they want to accept them the most, may be the ones that never do......

[MarieDelta]

Thanks Marie re: post 19
My initial reaction is anger to what you posted...hmm

I can not stand GLBT organizations and you want me to join them? Why? I don't know what is needed to be done for CISbisexual men.

I do agree that I would speak up when someone degrades a bisexual. It just doesn't happen in my artsie circles at all. There is not really anything derogatory said. Even gay artists do not talk a lot about sexuality. They talk about issues if it comes up in context with others issues. My gay friends do not denegrate bisexuals. However, some gays that want to have sex with me change their mind when they find out I'm bisexual.

I would become involved in a bi political actions but not qualified to set one up. I asked the question what needs to be done. I don't find being told to take a leadership role in something that I do not understand very helpful. Your list may work for you but it angers or frustrates me. That is my problem. I will think about it. Maybe you relate to these terms and approaches and I don't. I have no idea what a "sex positive group" is. I know what "art speak" is. I don't know what "queer speak" is if that is what I'm picking up from what your wrote. I simply do not relate.

Thank you anyway for your opinion and view. I will continue to reach out to some bisexual men that I've met but I think that I and probably them are floundering.

Aren't you a bisexual man, don't you know other bisexual men? Simply being involved will tell you what is needed to be done and allow others in the glbt community to experience a bisexual man.

If you do something wrong, don't worry , others have made mistakes too- we live and we learn. Only by doing do we learn what needs to be done.

Here is a quote I like -



“Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”
Marianne Williamson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marianne_Williamson)

[slipnslide]

Slipnslide, I've been thinking more about what you said there...

I think Savage lives in a gay bubble ("a gay enclave of the mind") by failing to incorporate the standpoints and experiences of a diverse bisexual demographic into his world view, and thus having a distorted view of reality.

But I wonder if there can be a bisexual bubble, or a closet bubble, too. You imply that the fight is over, and therefore any broader community benefits to coming out are null and void. But I think our out gay brothers and sisters have a different experience. There is still a lot of animosity out there to homosexuality/bisexuality. Many bisexuals are insulated from it though. I have never been in a gay bar. I have never held hands with, or kissed, a same-sex lover in public - many other bisexuals might say the same. So we don't have the same experience as gay people who perhaps have had taunts yelled at them from across the street, late at night, and felt the fear that such a thing might escalate beyond that to violence.

I think we're confusing two sides here. There's the legal side, where it's been settled, we seem to agree on that and that's what I meant. However, on the societal side, you're still going to have bigots. If you take something like http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-sci-politics10sep10,0,2687256.story you can see that some people will never change their minds because of how their brain works. It's futile to even try. The societal changes take place over many, many generations. Look at racism, we've entrenched in law that any determination made on the basis of race is wrong - yet there is still a racist on every corner. Any one of us coming out is not going to change the opinion of the bigot on the corner whose ideas and opinions are locked in his brain until the day he dies.

One of the tactics taken nowadays is to silence the bigot, but that doesn't fix the problem, it just masks it. While what those people have to say is awful, I'm not behind the idea of simply silencing the bigot to give the illusion of a different world. Ultimately, this is an education problem. As education continues to improve and access to higher education is made available to more and more people, society may see these opinions fade away - but that won't be in our lifetime.

[Gearbox]

drew, you raise some interesting points there.... as in the past, having being a employer, I am very very well aware of the loopholes in the anti discrimination laws of new zealand and how I could use them to to make advancement hard for a employee... and how a lot of favouritism is involved in climbing the ladder.....

one thing I have noticed amongst my gay friends as opposed to my bi friends, is that my gay friends will say that being gay is not a choice, being bisexual is.... cos a bisexual can hide within the safety of the heterosexual community and still be out as bisexual... a gay person can not cos they will always stand out...... and they do not mean it as people can choose their sexuality, but as they can choose how they can be visible or invisible within society.....

1) a gay person has the choice of be out or not.... and it will affect their whole life, not just whom they have permission to sleep with, after talking to their partner about opening the relationship

2) many gay people are who they are, fem, butch etc etc.... and a lot of their personality and mannerism is them 24/7.... bisexuals can often shift between a fem / mas persona for the short term periods within the safety of the bedroom ......

3) most bisexual people may never feel the sting of the public backlash simply cos they are who they are..... but its something that a lot of gay people I have spoken to, have said that it is always been a part of their lives.......

thats not to downplay what some bisexuals have had to deal with...... cos I know that some bisexuals have had it rough as hell as well.......

definitely, our reality is not always the reality of others..... and while the fight for rights in NZ is over for the majority of people.... the fight just to get out of bed in the morning and smile, knowing that today is another day of trying to deal with the fact our own family refuses to accept us, is something that may never change for some bi and gay people..... and its them that my heart really goes out to, when it comes to people fighting for acceptance and tolerance in society, cos the people that they want to accept them the most, may be the ones that never do......
God those gays you talk to need to spend less time bitching about bi's and bitch about themselves.:eek:

I assume you informed them that....

1. Bi's actually do love their opposite gender partners and can't just opt to dump them when they come out, as some gays do. They'd have no idea what that means for bi's nor their partners.

2. Being 24/7 full on uber fem or masc doesn't mean your 'realer' than those who fluctuate between the two. Nor gives any special credence to being 'who they are'. They should talk to CD's about that.

3. Feeling the sting of being different to hetero's in society doesn't give an excuse to sting bi's likewise. You either push for acceptance for ALL, or you join the bigots that oppress it.

I've talked to similar gays too, and you'd swear they had joined some religious cult.lol Free from reproach due to the Lord almighty 'Gay Gene'. I've had less judgemental conversations with Jehovah Witnesses, far less.
We ALL want acceptance, and in our own little bubbles we could ALL do with a little Spring cleaning once in a while. I'm still trying to get those ageist cobwebs off my bubbles ceiling, but at least I know they are there.:tongue:

[Jason0012]

Now I have spent some time looking up mr Savage and his various opinions. He seems to me like a gay Rush Limbaugh. I wanted to jump in on the idea of being out though. This is something that has burned me about the gay community since I first got involved 22 years ago. I have been aware, not questioning, experimenting, or confused since I was about 12. Admitedly it took some searching to get there and that may be unusually young, but that was were this started. At 15 I became involved in the movement for a local equal housing ordnance and workplace discrimination ordnance. Iwas told by many of the gay members of th "Fairness Campaign " that it wasn't my concern, I didn't belong, I was too straight to need concern myself. I was at the time openly bisexual though I was involved with a girl then. I have told my parents and various friends that I am bi only to treated to looks of confusion or disbelief. As I am married (yes Dan, to a woman) I think it seems to many that I am too normal. I don't think coming out really worked for me, perhaps if I had a boyfriend, and the wife hanging off me at the time the impact would be greater? But I did not retreat into some hetero normative hiding place, I came out and nobody cared, or believed me. My wife , who for a very long time identified as a lesbian, is also very out, and tries very hard to stay involved in the LG community. After many years of being told in no uncertain terms that bisexuals arent welcome, dont understand, shouldn't bother being involved ect I find it hard to understand why they include the B in LGBT. I gave up on them. It is funny I would have expected gay men and lesbians to appreciate the added support of bisexuals. I would think we would seem to be perfect allies as well as go betweens for the gay/straight worlds. I don't understand what it would be like to have no interest in the oposite sex, anymore than I understand people who have no interest in thier own sex. I don't assume that people who claim to be one or the other are lying or confused. Why do they assume that of me?

[Long Duck Dong]

God those gays you talk to need to spend less time bitching about bi's and bitch about themselves.:eek:

I assume you informed them that....

1. Bi's actually do love their opposite gender partners and can't just opt to dump them when they come out, as some gays do. They'd have no idea what that means for bi's nor their partners.

2. Being 24/7 full on uber fem or masc doesn't mean your 'realer' than those who fluctuate between the two. Nor gives any special credence to being 'who they are'. They should talk to CD's about that.

3. Feeling the sting of being different to hetero's in society doesn't give an excuse to sting bi's likewise. You either push for acceptance for ALL, or you join the bigots that oppress it.

I've talked to similar gays too, and you'd swear they had joined some religious cult.lol Free from reproach due to the Lord almighty 'Gay Gene'. I've had less judgemental conversations with Jehovah Witnesses, far less.
We ALL want acceptance, and in our own little bubbles we could ALL do with a little Spring cleaning once in a while. I'm still trying to get those ageist cobwebs off my bubbles ceiling, but at least I know they are there.:tongue:

trouble is most of the gay people were not being bitchy about the differences at all... they were talking about the differences that a lot of gays face that most bisexuals may not face..... but at the same time, they were also talking about the differences between being gay and being bisexual and what they saw as the issues the bisexuals faced......

[tenni]

"one thing I have noticed amongst my gay friends as opposed to my bi friends, is that my gay friends will say that being gay is not a choice, being bisexual is.... cos a bisexual can hide within the safety of the heterosexual community and still be out as bisexual... a gay person can not cos they will always stand out...... and they do not mean it as people can choose their sexuality, but as they can choose how they can be visible or invisible within society....."

"bisexuality is a choice"..wtf? Sexuality is not a choice. I would expect you to correct them rather than post such nonsense on a bi site. Biphobic slip on your part maybe? I think perhaps you mean that some gay people stand out because of their effeminate mannerisms. Not all gay people are stereotypical with their mannerisms but some of my gay friends have told me that some perfectly straight acting men begin to go camp fem acting once they come out as gay. That seems to be a choice for some gay men. Not all, but enough to make one wonder about the above statement.

"Everyone's personality is with them 24/7."

Bisexuals feel the sting of being different just the same as gay people. Many on this site have reported these feeling from an early age.

"Many bisexuals are insulated from it though. I have never been in a gay bar. I have never held hands with, or kissed, a same-sex lover in public - many other bisexuals might say the same."

I've been to gay bars in a couple of countries. Nothing has happened when I left but I know that something might happen. I've kissed a man in daylight in Toronto (with a few drinks under my belt..lol) It was on the border of the gay village and nothing happened. I know that some gay appearing people have been attacked last year in the gay village though with drinks.

So, in some respects I've been out. I just don't go around with a rainbow flag on my shirt. I wouldn't anyway. I looked up the bi flag last night to see if I could ask an organization to put that up. I know that they will put up the rainbow flag because a gay man works there and he is pro active. It will be interesting if he argues that there is no need for a biflag as the rainbow covers all not heteros.

I looked up a GLBT organization in my area. MY gawd..they list a long LGBTT2IQQAA. LOL I think that is way over extending themselves as far a meeting the needs of all the groups. It seems that they don't on their website. Everyone is in the same group with no distinction. They get money from the United Way. I am not saying that they shouldn't but I doubt that they can really help bisexual people, intersexed, transexuals, two spirit and so on. They don't have funds and they certainly don't show anything other than a one size fits all approach on their website. To their credit they do focus on youth.

[Long Duck Dong]

"one thing I have noticed amongst my gay friends as opposed to my bi friends, is that my gay friends will say that being gay is not a choice, being bisexual is.... cos a bisexual can hide within the safety of the heterosexual community and still be out as bisexual... a gay person can not cos they will always stand out...... and they do not mean it as people can choose their sexuality, but as they can choose how they can be visible or invisible within society....."

"bisexuality is a choice"..wtf? Sexuality is not a choice. I would expect you to correct them rather than post such nonsense on a bi site. Biphobic slip on your part maybe? I think perhaps you mean that some gay people stand out because of their effeminate mannerisms. Not all gay people are stereotypical with their mannerisms but some of my gay friends have told me that some perfectly straight acting men begin to go camp fem acting once they come out as gay. That seems to be a choice for some gay men. Not all, but enough to make one wonder about the above statement.


I clearly stated they were not saying that people can choose their sexuality.... but that a person can choose to be visible as a sexuality.... IE a bisexual can choose to appear as a hetero to other people, or a bisexual ( by coming out ).... so no, I am not going to correct them for something that they did not say..... I will correct you for misreading and not seeing the part where I stated what they were talking about

once again, can you get your bloody facts right before you go after me and try and troll me

[Brian]

"bisexuality is a choice"..wtf? Sexuality is not a choice.

When you say "sexuality", I assume you are referring in brief to sexual orientation? And assuming so, who says it is not a choice? I am not aware that it has been scientifically established that sexual orientation is, or is not, a choice. I think the scientific jury is still out on that. And I am not sure that it can ever be said one way or another that it is, or is not, a choice for all people. I suspect that, like a lot of human psychology/behaviour, it might be a combination of genetics, environment, conscious choice and subconscious choice.

I've always thought the choice/gay gene question is a bit of an unimportant sidebar. I don't know that it really matters anyway.

- Drew :paw:

[slipnslide]

I suspect that, like a lot of human psychology/behaviour, it might be a combination of genetics, environment, conscious choice and subconscious choice.

You would likely find a lot of support for your genetic expression idea among psychologists these days. After all, identical twins do not always have the same sexuality. That provides some indication that sexual orientation is not solely based in genetics.

[tenni]

When you say "sexuality", I assume you are referring in brief to sexual orientation? And assuming so, who says it is not a choice? I am not aware that it has been scientifically established that sexual orientation is, or is not, a choice. I think the scientific jury is still out on that. And I am not sure that it can ever be said one way or another that it is, or is not, a choice for all people. I suspect that, like a lot of human psychology/behaviour, it might be a combination of genetics, environment, conscious choice and subconscious choice.

I've always thought the choice/gay gene question is a bit of an unimportant sidebar. I don't know that it really matters anyway.

- Drew :paw:

I don't think that there has been any scientific measurement tool to determine sexuality(orientation). There have been experiments with men and measuring penile arousal though. First to study pedophiles and recently I think that there was a controversial study examining men's sexual arousal with images of men and women.

Self disclosure has been fairly consistent with bisexuals and gays as far as attempts at supressing sexual preference that it is difficult and for some impossible to live a happy life without sexual acts with same sex. I agree that like many things in psychology etc. present thoughts are that nature(genetics?) and nurture)sociological, environmental factors) play a mixed significant role in how a person exercises their sexual choices.(which is slightly different than what you wrote drew).

The goal of living a self actualized life in a happy manner comes in to play on how we act on our sexual needs. Sex is a basic human physical need though for sexual beings.

"You would likely find a lot of support for your genetic expression idea among psychologists these days. After all, identical twins do not always have the same sexuality. That provides some indication that sexual orientation is not solely based in genetics."

The factor sometimes used to explain identical twins not always having the same sexuality is that each is in each other's environment as factors. Frequently one identical twin may take the lead in some areas while the other exhibits more submissive behaviour and compliance with the twin. Sometimes, they are just freaky similar and it has been shown in identical twins separated early in life being re united with many personality and behavioural similarities/ likes/dislikes etc. This thought is also used to explain differences in personality etc. in identical twins. There is also a fairly reasonable number of identical twins who do share same/similar sexuality(orientation). Numbers sufficient to present it in an argument for genetics correct Slippy.

[slipnslide]

Sex is a basic human physical need though for sexual beings.


Whoa, whoa...that's not true at all. People feel varying degrees of sexual desire, but it is not a "basic human physical need". No one has died from lack of sex.

[slipnslide]

Numbers sufficient to present it in an argument for genetics correct Slippy.

Go back and read what Drew and I have said again. You completely missed the argument.

[Jason0012]

Dafyd that was exceptionaly well put, even without a Y.

[darkrainbow]

Before I weigh in on this topic here is my disclaimer; I am jason0012's wife. I have a different kind of coming out experience than what I have mostly read here, so I would like to share my experience. I met Jason when we were 15. My best friend had just told me that he was gay. When he told me this I just accepted it because he was my friend. At the time, I really had no idea what he was talking about. He had to actually explain to me that he was attracted to men, not women. I had just started exploring my own sexuality and it never occurred to me at that time that someone could be attracted to both men and women. I started having feelings for a girl at my school and in my mind that made me a lesbian. I dove head first into the gay/lesbian lifestyle because I still didn't believe that I could be attracted to and love both men and women. The LGBTQ community accepted me as a lesbian with open arms. I was VERY active in the community. I was also VERY out. I was out as a lesbian to family, friends, work - you name it I was out to them. I felt really connected to the community until Jason and I started dating again. I tried to convince myself that even though I am married to man I am still a lesbian at heart because if I wasn't married to Jason I would still be with women exclusively. When I finally accepted the fact that, yes, I am bisexual I found myself having to come out again, this time as a bisexual. As soon as my so called community found out that I was in a relationship with a man they all disappeared *poof*. They shunned me. Why because I love a person who happens to have a penis. It really hurts me still to this day that I was rejected from the community that I loved so much, a community that I thought would support me no matter what. Even though the LGBTQ community has rejected me and has made it painfully clear that I am not one of them I refuse to leave the community because I am a stubborn bitch. I still have my pride. I have bisexual pride. I love going to pride. I love going to the gay bars and watching the drag shows. I guess what I am trying to say with all of this is that yes the gay community has a negative and noninclusive attitude towards bisexuals but I refuse to let that stop me from being who I am. All of the LGBTQ's hatred of me being bisexual just fuels me to be the most out and proud bisexual that I can be because it pisses them off so much!

[Gearbox]

trouble is most of the gay people were not being bitchy about the differences at all... they were talking about the differences that a lot of gays face that most bisexuals may not face..... but at the same time, they were also talking about the differences between being gay and being bisexual and what they saw as the issues the bisexuals faced......
They have a gay perspective of being bi. Which seems (shockingly.lol) to put gays in a great light, and bi's in a bad one. I'm not surprised they don't see that as 'bitchy'.lol I've encountered them too, and you just got to laugh at what they tell you about bi's. And when the tables are turned, sometimes they laugh too.:bigrin:
Sometimes they even accept me being bi, and just get on with the sex.lol

[Long Duck Dong]

They have a gay perspective of being bi. Which seems (shockingly.lol) to put gays in a great light, and bi's in a bad one. I'm not surprised they don't see that as 'bitchy'.lol I've encountered them too, and you just got to laugh at what they tell you about bi's. And when the tables are turned, sometimes they laugh too.:bigrin:
Sometimes they even accept me being bi, and just get on with the sex.lol

its cos they are not being bitchy, they were talking about some of their views of the differences between some gays and bisexuals.... its in the same way that we talk about the the way that some bisexuals can see the world of the gay person and the issues they face.... we are not being bitchy.... well, no, some of us are not being bitchy, we are just sharing a understanding without adding in the * biphobia, bigoted, biased, dan savage wanna be * remarks that often accompany statements about gays and lesbians and how they are trying to rule the world.....

its those kind of remarks that have been the reason why most of my gay and bi friends will not join the site and share about their experiences and understanding of having bi partners, bi family, bi friends..... a kinda outside view of the world of bisexuality from a gay point of view, by people that are not interested in the fighting between the sexualities, but just talking to bi people around the world and sharing experiences and understanding ...... my gay and bi friends simply do not want to get into a slinging match over who is the *better * sexuality or who has it worse ....

[slipnslide]

i know people are in the process of putting up their pics and creating profiles but I have to say again, anybody who prefers to remain anoynmous because they dont want people finding out they even use this site, really should look at their castication of those who are brave enough to stare adversity in the face and stand true to themselves.


Not even Drew shows his face on here. A lot of us have professional careers and can't have our faces associated with "who likes to eat cum?" threads.

It's sort of one of those 'you're judged by the company you keep' situations.

[elian]

What it all boils down to is that for all that I have, what I believe and who I have become, all I've ever really wanted is to love, and to be loved.. To be a part of loving community and to have and hold a friend, a companion - even if just for a short while .. for the life of me I'm not sure why that's so hard to understand..

[dafydd]

When members start declaring war on homosexuals and their bitching, it just sounds like er... bitching to me. and i don't agree with how uve divided the life's cherry pie into 3 portions all of a sudden. The straights, the gays/lesbians, the bisexuals.

Whats with all the "most bi's" and "all the gays ive spoken to" procolomations?
How can u pretend to know what billions of minds are thinking? sorry but if all the gays uve spoken to are judgemental and discrimanatory about bis, then either you know some really dumb gay people or you're not meeting enough of them.

i know people are in the process of putting up their pics and creating profiles but I have to say again, anybody who prefers to remain anoynmous because they dont want people finding out they even use this site, really should look at their castication of those who are brave enough to stare adversity in the face and stand true to themselves.

Remember that not everone is bi here, there are gays and lesbians reading ur words. Be patient that not every man on this site can be your straight acting ideal of masculinity that seems to be so lauded in this thread. Not ever woman here is Monroe either, and some of them would have u pissing ur pants in a fight.

There is nothing wrong with being camp if ur a man: gay or straight...and it seems to me that a lot of bi men posting on this thread..like to lump 'gay' and 'femme' together: as if that leaves bi men to claim all testorone for themselves.

This for the boys (very male centerd this post i know): please explain class, how its possible to tell a bi man apart from a gay men when they are both kneeling down side by side sucking cock?
does a gay man suck cock effiminately. does he tickle the frenulum with his little tongue? Does the bi man suck long and hard and grip that dick like a powertool? do bi men have more manly sex? surely then that means the sex is 'gayer' so to speak.

If u suck cock, u have a lot more in common with 'the homosexual' creature than u think. thats because when a man wraps his lips around the shaft of another man's penis...even if he's got a headache, he is expressing homosexual desire.

if those lips are a bi man's lips and not the puckered, glittery, lip-glossed maw of a gayboy, it is still HOMOSEXUAL. Because your bi, it doesn't make cock sucking half-less homosexual. u dont dilute the homo-ness of the blow-job because deep within u lies the 'blood of the straight', fresh from the hunt of pussy.

Stop chopping sexuality up in your arguments into these ridiculous parameters, just so u can make sure ur masculinity is reasserted.

I know that it is difficult to put pics up for some people. Hell, im now paranoid that my mother has stumbled across my opinions on excrement during anal sex (see older thread about 'you know what')
But if your little grey silhouette starts espousing some kind of rabble-rousing bisexual.com 'hoo-ra' chant, about "us" and "the gay's" - when we can't even see your eyes, then surely you've got to know how ridiculous that chant sounds. might aswell put a sheet over ur head.

I pick my way through those posts to avoid such landmines of shame - sad because i love these indepth threads, and the posts of so many here, which raise interesting questions. But I'm continuing to smell a foul whiff in the air on this site, a toxic fog of homophobia that pervades certain threads and is left unchallenged by anyone (not censored: never censored. but needs to be challenged) It would be a real shame if it that cloud posioned all that this site can offer, to not just bisexuals, but the world in which they live.

'Out' men and women are experts at navigating through such fog. Grey silhouetted members get easily lost. We could learn something from them gays and lesbians, but it requires us to share a part of their journey too.

d

[Long Duck Dong]

reads dafydds post..... looks at DD, reads the post again..... looks at DD..... " ahh DD.... I found MR right, you need to make room in the bed "

[dafydd]

reads dafydds post..... looks at DD, reads the post again..... looks at DD..... " ahh DD.... I found MR right, you need to make room in the bed "

hehe.. at least I'm glad you don't think I'm reminiscent of a crazy lunatic about to commit mass murderer in a park. it's not the look i was going for. ;)

[Gearbox]

its cos they are not being bitchy, they were talking about some of their views of the differences between some gays and bisexuals.... its in the same way that we talk about the the way that some bisexuals can see the world of the gay person and the issues they face.... we are not being bitchy.... well, no, some of us are not being bitchy, we are just sharing a understanding without adding in the * biphobia, bigoted, biased, dan savage wanna be * remarks that often accompany statements about gays and lesbians and how they are trying to rule the world.....
Dear me! Suddenly I'm Dan Savage for giving my bi perspective on a few NZ gays perspective of bi's , and there's a war against ALL homosexuals?:yikes2:
No wonder you can't find many bi's to come out in NZ.lol What would be the point when you get stigmatised for speaking out about the crap some gays come out with about bi's and gays?
Whether they are gay, bi, lesbian, trans, or an alien, they got to expect some disagreeing going on, and some opinions about themselves returned when giving opinions about others. Simple as!

If it gets them in a huff, then maybe they are right not to join a world wide internet site. It's safer in their own little bubbles.

[Long Duck Dong]

Dear me! Suddenly I'm Dan Savage for giving my bi perspective on a few NZ gays perspective of bi's , and there's a war against ALL homosexuals?:yikes2:
No wonder you can't find many bi's to come out in NZ.lol What would be the point when you get stigmatised for speaking out about the crap some gays come out with about bi's and gays?
Whether they are gay, bi, lesbian, trans, or an alien, they got to expect some disagreeing going on, and some opinions about themselves returned when giving opinions about others. Simple as!

If it gets them in a huff, then maybe they are right not to join a world wide internet site. It's safer in their own little bubbles.


nope gearbox, I am not calling you dan savage..... and nor am I comparing you to him...... but like I said, my gay friends were not being bitchy about bis and they certainly are not anti bi.... they were some of the gay people that were interested in coming to the site and sharing with other people about their experiences with having bi partners, bi family, bi friends etc.....and not to start a sexuality war or debate over what sexuality is better etc... cos most of them left the groups that were doing that in NZ, including a few of the so called LGBT support groups

[tenni]

Is it possible that some communicate an anti bisexual perspective within the guise of stating what gay friends "think"?

Some of my bi and hetero friends have noticed that and a lot of denial.

[drugstore cowboy]

nope gearbox, I am not calling you dan savage..... and nor am I comparing you to him...... but like I said, my gay friends were not being bitchy about bis and they certainly are not anti bi.... they were some of the gay people that were interested in coming to the site and sharing with other people about their experiences with having bi partners, bi family, bi friends etc.....and not to start a sexuality war or debate over what sexuality is better etc... cos most of them left the groups that were doing that in NZ, including a few of the so called LGBT support groups Don't be fooled people. LDD has used this excuse and shifted blame yet again onto another person here and shows his anti-bisexual issues while charading to be bisexual when he's not. I remember an older post when LDD's supposed Trans friends who call themselves trannies were going to post and they didn't and LDD shifted the blame onto someone who doesn't like the term tranny.

[Long Duck Dong]

Don't be fooled people. LDD has used this excuse and shifted blame yet again onto another person here and shows his anti-bisexual issues while charading to be bisexual when he's not. I remember an older post when LDD's supposed Trans friends who call themselves trannies were going to post and they didn't and LDD shifted the blame onto someone who doesn't like the term tranny.

actually they called themselves the tranny grannies, I asked them to come to the site and share their story, and they declined cos they did not want to have to deal with the BS over how they were not getting offended by a term that people can misuse without meaning offensive.... and it was another member that took issue with my friends not getting worked up over the tranny label....

but do not let the facts get in the way of a good LDD bashing, drugstore......

btw, dan savage breathed, you better go bash him for breathing in a biphobic manner

[elian]

When members start declaring war on homosexuals and their bitching, it just sounds like er... bitching to me. and i don't agree with how uve divided the life's cherry pie into 3 portions all of a sudden. The straights, the gays/lesbians, the bisexuals.

Whats with all the "most bi's" and "all the gays ive spoken to" procolomations?
How can u pretend to know what billions of minds are thinking? sorry but if all the gays uve spoken to are judgemental and discrimanatory about bis, then either you know some really dumb gay people or you're not meeting enough of them.


I agree with your post . Even if you don't identify as gay it still IS homosexual activity and that's how the "outside" world views it because that's all they know. That's the interesting thing about "this" type of minority - it's not as obvious as something like skin color, so some of us can hide if we choose to. I know a lot of people think it's about the sex only. Obviously that may be a part of it but it's a more fundamental choice than that - it's about who you love, who you are attracted to.

"Don't have sex" - Ok, I can do that but it doesn't always make me happy. But try telling people not to love once and see how that goes.

I guess Drew's point is, if we don't hide, more people will know and accept bisexuals? Oh, how I wish that were true - maybe that's why I have recurring dreams about being forced to come out. Kinda funny - I got a "Standing on the side of LOVE" bumper sticker for my car - http://www.standingonthesideoflove.org should be a fairly good thing to put on the back eh? I haven't yet, because the place where I work is very conservative and I don't care to answer too many questions. I don't want to say they are AGAINST the things on that site, but I've heard many of them espouse views on immigration, etc. that would conflict with the views on that site. Frankly I am all for LEGAL immigration except that it takes FOREVER, illegal immigration is a gray area in my mind - kind of funny so many people want things as inexpensive as possible, yet these are the same people that bitch about illegal immigration..I'm not sure where they think that "savings" comes from?

In the end I will probably get too pissed off about negative campaign ads in an election year and end up putting it on the bumper anyway - the constant media buzz drives me crazy.

[tenni]

"actually they called themselves the tranny grannies, I asked them to come to the site and share their story, and they declined cos they did not want to have to deal with the BS over how they were not getting offended by a term that people can misuse without meaning offensive.... and it was another member that took issue with my friends not getting worked up over the tranny label...."

Some of my "friends" have noticed that poor communication skills seems to create confusion and off topic discussion. They wonder why a poster who does not write sentences more clearly, properly punctuated with subject predicate structure continues to post so much about themself and their friends' dislike of this site. They think that the poster should edit better or post less often so that threads do not get side tracked in off topic egocentric ramblings.

[Gearbox]

nope gearbox, I am not calling you dan savage..... and nor am I comparing you to him...... but like I said, my gay friends were not being bitchy about bis and they certainly are not anti bi.... they were some of the gay people that were interested in coming to the site and sharing with other people about their experiences with having bi partners, bi family, bi friends etc.....and not to start a sexuality war or debate over what sexuality is better etc... cos most of them left the groups that were doing that in NZ, including a few of the so called LGBT support groups
They have a very strange way of not being bitchy nor biased with their views on sexualities:

1) a gay person has the choice of be out or not.... and it will affect their whole life, not just whom they have permission to sleep with, after talking to their partner about opening the relationship

2) many gay people are who they are, fem, butch etc etc.... and a lot of their personality and mannerism is them 24/7.... bisexuals can often shift between a fem / mas persona for the short term periods within the safety of the bedroom ......

3) most bisexual people may never feel the sting of the public backlash simply cos they are who they are..... but its something that a lot of gay people I have spoken to, have said that it is always been a part of their lives
This maybe due to them having no idea what it's like to be bi, and just comes across as bitchy in the "Gays suffer most, and are truer to ourselves, and braver etc" sense? It views bi's as 'faulty gays', and not quite the 'full package' as themselves. A view that's not rare. 'Faulty straight' is a view common in some bi's about themselves too IMO.
But really, they are complete and as true to themselves as they are. They don't hide in 'hetero land', they are a part of it. Their also a part of 'gay land', and suffer differently, not less. They are just as individual as any of another sexuality too, so hard to judge life in their shoes.
No sexuality has a 100% Saintly Angel membership, nor a Demonic Jinn one either. It's futile to compare en mass. But debate and exchange is necessary IMO.

[Long Duck Dong]

They have a very strange way of not being bitchy nor biased with their views on sexualities:

This maybe due to them having no idea what it's like to be bi, and just comes across as bitchy in the "Gays suffer most, and are truer to ourselves, and braver etc" sense? It views bi's as 'faulty gays', and not quite the 'full package' as themselves. A view that's not rare. 'Faulty straight' is a view common in some bi's about themselves too IMO.
But really, they are complete and as true to themselves as they are. They don't hide in 'hetero land', they are a part of it. Their also a part of 'gay land', and suffer differently, not less. They are just as individual as any of another sexuality too, so hard to judge life in their shoes.
No sexuality has a 100% Saintly Angel membership, nor a Demonic Jinn one either. It's futile to compare en mass. But debate and exchange is necessary IMO.


its hard not to appear biased or bitchy when a person is refering to other people..... but I can assure you that they were not being biased or bitchy.....

they would openly tell you that they can not relate to bisexuality as they are gay, so they understand bisexuality in terms of sexual attraction, desire and interest, just not to the opposite gender, but definately to the same gender.....

I reckon that a few of my friends may be more bisexual inclined than gay, to be dead honest, but the idea of dealing with the explaining a dual gender attraction scares the shit outta them cos they have already had to deal with the coming out as gay, aspect and for some of them, that was pretty horrific in itself..... and the idea of coming out again is just something that is not in their future ( maybe )

a lot of their stance about bisexuals comes from the understanding that bisexuality can be invisible even when its visible ( the same applies to be gay ).... IE a out bisexual with a opposite sex partner is not really standing out as bisexual in a restaurant, but a out gay can stand out ( if you and I were in a restaurant and I was being really fem and flamboyant, I may be more likely to be seen as gay, than you lol ).. and while that can be said to be bi invisibility, my friends will ask, what exactly is a visible bisexual.... and how can bisexuals be visible if you appear to be like everybody else...lol

part of why I love my gay friends, is that if you said to them that bisexuals were invisible if they walked down the road hand in hand with a same or opposite gender partner, you would be invisible as a bisexual but seen as hetero or gay, they would immediately agree with you.... and ask you how the hell do you make yourself more visible as a bisexual without walking down the road hand in hand with two partners, one of either gender ......

as for dating bisexuals, yes most of them would and/or have... the biggest issue, they talk about, is the honesty and openness of bisexual needs in the relationship, more than the actual sex with other people....and having a open relationship would not be a issue, as long as it was talked about ....

yeah, as you can tell, I tend to perfer to hang with people that are open minded and accepting of others sexualities, interests and minds ( even with the disagreements ), rather than constantly deal with the fighting and bitching over what sexuality has it harder.....and its why my friends left a lot of the groups they were in, that were full of the bi / gay / les / hetero bashing..... or as they put it, we may have anti discrimination laws in NZ, but discrimination is more rampant in the LGBT now than it ever was in the hetero community.... and based around things I have had to deal with, I am inclined to agree in a lot of cases....

[slipnslide]

I reckon that a few of my friends may be more bisexual inclined than gay, to be dead honest, but the idea of dealing with the explaining a dual gender attraction scares the shit outta them cos they have already had to deal with the coming out as gay, aspect and for some of them, that was pretty horrific in itself..... and the idea of coming out again is just something that is not in their future ( maybe )
.

I have two "gay" friends in this situation. They identify as gay to the gay community, but knowing I'm bi they confide their attraction to the opposite sex.

And like you say, they made a big deal about coming out as gay and don't want to appear like complete flakes when they "change their mind".

In their cases, coming out has locked them into an identity to which they don't genuinely belong.

[Gearbox]

@LDD- Coincidently, I'm meeting a nice gay bloke in a cafe patio next week. We've only chatted on a hookup site for a while, and will meet for sex with the door open to 'something more'. Neither drive, so for a change I'll take the bus instead of relying on the other. I'll meet him at that cafe patio with his tea sipping women friends around.
Now we've only chatted about each other, our bodies, likes and dislikes etc. No mention of bisexuality or women at all. I'll be there to meet HIM!
But out came the old, "I'll satisfy you! You won't be disappointed! yada yada ......You won't want women after sex with me!".:eek2: I haven't got there yet, and he's planning on 'fixing' me.LOL!
I'd put it down as a joke. But like I told him, I've heard that before. I'm ok as I am, and there's nothing to get insecure about..yada yada..
Like before, I plan on 'fixing' HIM. Not his sexuality, I'm obviously grateful that he likes men. It's not so much his preconceived idea of what all bi kind is, as who I am, I aim to fix. But I just don't know what goes on in his head because I'm not a gay who meets a bi. I've failed miserably to make my 'personal bi' invisible other times.

I can fully understand the gays you mention that are probably bi though. I know a few bi's that claim to be gay just to avoid explaining stuff and getting hassle. Which is really bizarre when you think of it!:tongue:
If I went to that cafe acting a bit camp and claimed that vagina's make me sick, I'd have a cushy time of it with him.LOL! He's a great looking fit bloke with a BIG cock and a nice person! He'd have no competition from other men. But 'Bi' feks that up.

I'll give it one more shot, then I'm turning lesbian!:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

LOL, fix you ? lol....

I have heard that myself from people and i have answered * you are turning into a intersex person with both fully working genitalia * ?....lol

I will admit that when I was younger and a lil less clued up, I used to say that lesbians just need a good fucking by a male and that a good fuck by a woman would turn any gay man straight....... now i cringe when I realise how much of a tosser I was, saying things like that...

anyways, I hope you show him not to underestimate the skill of a bi man when it comes to satisfying another man and that you give him good reason to eat his words, swallow / take ya cum and cum begging for more....

yeah, the couple of gay guys, its interesting, they do not react the same way about sex with ladies as I have seen some *rigid * gays do, they are more openly affectionate with the ladies, ( hugs and platonic kisses ) and I have noticed ( I was not perving, I swear, cos they were dressed ) that there was a visible reaction in the front of the jeans when some of the chats got a lil more intense than just idle talk.... there has been a lil joking about how they are bi guys taking a break from women to build up the sperm count... and its the way that they turn a lil thoughtful when remarks like that are made, that is really the thing that makes me wonder..... but either way, they are my friends and honestly, if DD was in NZ and ok with the idea, I would not mind inviting one of them around for dinner and a few drinks and maybe a kiss or too cos he would be quite the catch for any lucky guy ... or lady if he was interested in being with a lady......

[pole_smoker]

Everyone and their mom literally claims they were at Stonewall, or at the riots and that's not true.

This is what Stonewall historian David Crane found in regards to one of the “trans women of color” who SJW say made the riots:
“Yes, I am afraid that I could only conclude that Sylvia Rivera’s account of her being there on the first night was a fabrication. Randy Wicker told me that Marsha P. Johnson, his roommate, told him that Sylvia was not at the Stonewall Inn at the outbreak of the riots as she had fallen asleep in Bryant Park after taking heroin. (Marsha had gone up to Bryant Park, found her asleep, and woke her up to tell her about the riots.) Playwright and early gay activist Doric Wilson also independently told me that Marsha Johnson had told him that Sylvia was not at the Stonewall Riots.
“Sylvia also showed a real inconsistency in her accounts of the Stonewall Riots. In one account she claimed that the night the riots broke out was the first time that she had ever been at the Stonewall Inn; in another account she said that she had been there many times. In one account she said that she was there in drag; in another account she says that she was not in drag. She told Martin Duberman that she went to the Stonewall Inn the night the riots began to celebrate Marsha Johnson’s birthday, but Marsha was born in August, not June. I also did not find one credible witness who saw her there on the first night.”