How would you class the sexual orientation of transsexuals ?

[BatCox40]

Hi
How would you class the sexual orientation of transsexuals ? I have put them in the following groups.

1. For one who were male becoming a female?

2. For one who were female becoming a male ?

3. For those yet to have sexual reassignment surgery (pre-ops)?

4. For those who had the S.R.S. (post-ops) ?

5. The shemales / ladyboys seen in porn ?
Incidently some in porn are quite often either
1. with males
2. with females
3. with another transsexual
4. with a male and female
5. with two (or more) males
6. with two (or more) females
7. Other combinations.

[Long Duck Dong]

assumption of sexuality is something that causes issues.... so as best I can, I do not assume, but ask the person if I am unclear, or listen to what they say about themselves.....and respect the label they give themselves.....

[MarieDelta]

See the following diagram
4458
If you have further questions feel free to ask them in the group "Ask a Transsexual a Question" (http://www.bisexual.com/forum/group.php?groupid=35)

[onewhocares]

May I add, WHY do you wish to seperate transexuals from any other part of our wonderful group? Each one of us should find a home. heck...I am a six foot tall chubby blonde chick who is married to a tall skinny gay man. I only want him to find the man of HIS dreams. I would like to find mine to. ....nope he does not have to be twelve feet tall. Just a most open and honest man. Wishing inspiration an honesty in a reply to this thread.
Belle

[BatCox40]

I like the above diagram it is pretty clear in explaining the four categories: Gender Identity, gender expression, biological sex and sexual orientation. It kind of answers my question that it is down to the individual (the transsexual themselves) in question to decide from the four above aspects. What may be confusing are the conclusions that could be drawn from the different combinations.

For a male to female pre-op transsexual

Gender identity = Woman
gender expression = i think that most likely be feminine
biological sex = male because they are pre-op and have a penis.
Sexual orientation = This depends on what sex they are attracted to or having sex with. Here is the easy bit..only having sexual relationship with males is heterosexual, only having sexual relationship with females is homosexual, either is bisexual. Now here is the part i am not sure about is when a transsexual is with another transsexual as sometimes seen in porn. Since two M to F transsexuals identify their gender as female then my conclusion is this is homosexual.

It also shows that a man whose gender expression to be feminine could be regarded as Camp. In contrast to a butch woman whose gender expression is masculine.

[Danielle_Tremblay]

Are you brain damaged or do you just need a roadmap to categorize everything in your life. You show your true lack of intelligence by even thinking of posting something like this. People are people and their sexuality should not even enter into the equation......if that were the case, the world would be so much better off. Who cares about labels? Black, white, asian, transsexual, gay, bi? It's this retarded society we live in where certain people feel the need to label and categorize things like they do in a science lab......

[MarieDelta]

I like the above diagram it is pretty clear in explaining the four categories: Gender Identity, gender expression, biological sex and sexual orientation. It kind of answers my question that it is down to the individual (the transsexual themselves) in question to decide from the four above aspects. What may be confusing are the conclusions that could be drawn from the different combinations.

For a male to female pre-op transsexual

Gender identity = Woman
gender expression = i think that most likely be feminine
biological sex = male because they are pre-op and have a penis.
Sexual orientation = This depends on what sex they are attracted to or having sex with. Here is the easy bit..only having sexual relationship with males is heterosexual, only having sexual relationship with females is homosexual, either is bisexual. Now here is the part i am not sure about is when a transsexual is with another transsexual as sometimes seen in porn. Since two M to F transsexuals identify their gender as female then my conclusion is this is homosexual.

It also shows that a man whose gender expression to be feminine could be regarded as Camp. In contrast to a butch woman whose gender expression is masculine.

It could be that someone shown in porn is not attracted at all to the sex they are playing with. That is Viagra has been a boon to the porn industry, in more than one way.

In other words, just because someone is having sex with someone for money , it doesn't necessarily follow that they want to be having sex with that person.

[elian]

The gender identity of a transsexual person has to do the gender that they identify with internally. The sexual orientation (who a person is attracted to sexually) of a transsexual person may be different than the gender identity. How do you ask another man if he likes guys? I guess it would be about the same for asking a transsexual person their sexual preference as well.

[MarieDelta]

One last comment regarding trans* sexual orientation.

When you start messing with gender, everything goes to hell in a handbasket.

I just ID myself as queer. There are reasons for this, mostly because this way I can state that I'm *different* than straight but there aren't any details given or restrictions listed.

[tenni]

Just a few comments on this sensitive issue.

1/ Viagara does not increase the ability to become aroused as much as increasing the ability for blood to flow to the penis. As I understand it, it is the mind that is the greatest erection facilitator.

2/ I'm surprised that no one has commented on Danielle's personal attack on the OP and violation of rule 2. I think that you have been extremely rude Danielle. Deal with your own issues please. The OP was asking questions in what I consider a polite manner and he is not "brain damaged". As you wrote, people are people and should be treated with respect. You get what you give.

[æonpax]

Years ago, when I belonged to Gay.com, a argument, then a massive fight, erupted over what to classify transsexuals. Specifically, it involved M2F people wanting to join "female only" groups. At issue was the largest of the groups specifying (for lack of a better term) "purebred females".

At first Gay.com insisted that they be able to join which caused even more dissent as females (mainly lesbians) left the large group to start new ones. It caused quite a stir and ill will which would later come back to haunt the site.

As for me, I was a teen at the time and wasn't allowed in the "adult" rooms but I went anyways and tended to side with the woman as far as discriminating according to ones ability to give birth, which I had already done.

I learned that the human capacity for bias does not change according to ones orientation but sometimes, bias has to be accepted as part of the norm.

[darkeyes]

It is what it is.... wot is the OP's or ne 1 elses? The title of the thread is a stupid question..

[MarieDelta]

@ Aeonpax , so you'd favor discriminating against sterile women?

Or have you changed your viewpoint?

[æonpax]

@ Aeonpax , so you'd favor discriminating against sterile women? Or have you changed your viewpoint?


“…discriminating according to ones ability to give birth…” refers to the biological plumbing a female is born with (tubes, womb, uterus, etc) which allows her to give birth and was used to differentiate (or discriminate) against a transsexual female in regards to joining an “all female” group. This does NOT mean to exclude a female whom for whatever reason, cannot give birth.


If I recall correctly, this same debate (about allowing M2F’s) also happened on the all bisexual female site called ShyBi.

[transcendMental]

“…discriminating according to ones ability to give birth…” refers to the biological plumbing a female is born with (tubes, womb, uterus, etc) which allows her to give birth and was used to differentiate (or discriminate) against a transsexual female in regards to joining an “all female” group. This does NOT mean to exclude a female whom for whatever reason, cannot give birth.

"Discriminating according to ones ability to give birth" does not mean to exclude a female who cannot give birth? Then whom exactly does it mean to exclude?

I am a female who cannot give birth. You say that whatever the reason I cannot give birth, your policy does not mean to exclude me. Yet I believe I am exactly the kind of person your policy is meant to exclude. I sense a double standard. Certainly double talk.

tm

[æonpax]

"Discriminating according to ones ability to give birth" does not mean to exclude a female who cannot give birth? Then whom exactly does it mean to exclude? I am a female who cannot give birth. You say that whatever the reason I cannot give birth, your policy does not mean to exclude me. Yet I believe I am exactly the kind of person your policy is meant to exclude. I sense a double standard. Certainly double talk. tm
`

First off, it's not my policy, it's a policy I've seen certain sites use. I used the word "discriminate" because that's exactly what it is...discrimination based on gender/orientation. It does not matter whether I agree or disagree with it, but it is a reality. There are many women who feel uncomfortable around TS M2F, which is why this is an issue that needs to be confronted. It is seemingly hypocritical and unfair but I've seen the arguments from both sides and both have merit.

[bobble]

Wow, seems a little harsh Danielle! It is a topic many of us (ok, me ;) know very little about. I don't think that means we are judgmental or negative. I's suggest the opposite, just be virtue of our participation on this site. I've always assume that a f to m identifies as a male, and vice versa. However, I could be wrong, as with most things in life.

Peace.

[glenn???]

I would CLASS THEM as "DOING THEYRE OWN THING"

[Danielle_Tremblay]

Firstly.....it was a rhetorical question......are you brain damaged...yes or no?....simple answer really.......get over yourself Tenni, surely you can't be THAT sensitive.....well, ok, maybe you are. Take a millisecond and really digest the OP's questioning......is there really any need for this drivel.....how many times does this need to be dissected, really. Does a group of people need to be broken down in such a way? Another glaring point is the use of the word "SheMale" among others, if you were actually involved in the community you would understand that this is a derogatory term coined solely by the porn industry and is considered disrespectful so if anyone should be offended here....it should be persons from this community.

And on another note, if you feel i have been rude or disrespectful then, please, have me banned because it really makes no difference at any rate as this site has experienced a long, slow descent into becoming nothing but drivel anyway, i mean.....how many times can one ask if "anyone else likes to eat cum" or "how should i tell my partner i'm bi. The site has become a repository for players and lurkers and trolls and quite honestly, holds no more interest for me than a petre dish full of amoeba.......no, wait! Sorry, my humble apologies to the amoeba.

Now i am going to sit back and watch the all of the self-righteous "Dudley Doorites" debate this thing into the ground.....this oughta be good!

[elian]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the OP asked the question because he genuinely wants to know the "right" terminology? There will always be "new" people from many different backgrounds coming to this site asking "new" questions because not everyone develops in life at the same time, not every experience is the same.

The OP came here with a certain perception and we tried to correct his perception to the best of our ability. Including your point of view that seems to be, "not everything in life needs a label" .. hopefully I got that right.

If it is in fact, a troll then providing an angry response only reinforces bad behavior.

[MarieDelta]

`

First off, it's not my policy, it's a policy I've seen certain sites use. I used the word "discriminate" because that's exactly what it is...discrimination based on gender/orientation. It does not matter whether I agree or disagree with it, but it is a reality. There are many women who feel uncomfortable around TS M2F, which is why this is an issue that needs to be confronted. It is seemingly hypocritical and unfair but I've seen the arguments from both sides and both have merit.

I think the words that you're looking for are "cis" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) and "trans" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender) ...

Reminds me of something...oh yeah Mich Womens Music Festival, but then what do I know I'm just a stupid tranny, right?

Radfems everywhere are rejoicing, I am sure.

sigh

[DuckiesDarling]

You know... I almost hate to say this but I do agree with Aeon here. The thing is certain things, no matter how you change the plumbing or the package, are things that affect females only and females might not be comfortable about talking about them unless it was restricted to cisgender females only. Things like problems with menstruation and infertility. It is not meant to be an insult to trans but I'm sorry there comes a point in time that you have to realize you will never face the problems cis women face no matter the operations you have. It is all well and good to push for equality but there has to come a time when you stop playing the victim card. I don't believe the OP meant any insult, he was asking a question and he got jumped on. Marie, you started a group, if he had asked the question there would he have the received the same slapdown? At the same point in time I do not believe Danielle meant to be quite so offensive to the OP. So please everyone step back and take a chill pill. :2cents:

[æonpax]

You know... I almost hate to say this but I do agree with Aeon here

Thanks...I like you too.

[Danielle_Tremblay]

Thank you DuckiesDarling.......so very eloquently put.....xo.....D

[MarieDelta]

There are -plenty of cis women who don't experience menstruation, women who never experience this are excluded from such groups as well I assume?

Sterile women xy women (not talking about trans women either) are excluded from this group?

Oh that's right you just want to exclude women coercively assigned male at birth...

And you wonder why people lie?

[tenni]

[QUOTE=Danielle_Tremblay;224784]Firstly.....it was a rhetorical question......are you brain damaged...yes or no?....simple answer really.......get over yourself Tenni, surely you can't be THAT sensitive.....


Danielle
Now, you know that rhetorical questions are often used to be rude (if you didn't know)

Referring to people as "brain damaged" in a demeaning way is offensive and particularly to those people who have had a brain injury. "Brain damaged" doesn't mean that a person's cognitive abilities are always a result of their brain injury(damage). You can not play a victim card and at the same time attack of others such as brain injured people. Yes, I just happen to be a "brain damaged" person madam. It has not impacted my cognitive abilities at all. I has impacted neuro muscular aspects of my life. No one would visibly know my disability unless I fall down with no apparent cause to do so.

[DuckiesDarling]

There are -plenty of cis women who don't experience menstruation, women who never experience this are excluded from such groups as well I assume?

Sterile women xy women (not talking about trans women either) are excluded from this group?

Oh that's right you just want to exclude women coercively assigned male at birth...

And you wonder why people lie?

No, Marie, I don't wonder why people lie, I see it proven again and again on this site that it's fine to lie your partners for whatever reason someone makes themselves believe. But you are now grasping at straws and seeing offense where none is intended.

[MarieDelta]

No , I am calling out your entitlements.

That's different from taking offense.

Sometimes people lie because it is dangerous not to. Ever think of that?

[DuckiesDarling]

Entitlements? I don't have entitlements you are the one with entitlement issues, dear. I remember once you actually stated if you were married and your husband wanted to have children that you would lie to him about having your reproductive organs removed. That is not a lie to save a life, it's to save face. This is getting no where, you will continue to take offense at people who are merely curious and in that way you will alienate people who could be some of the biggest advocates for helping others understand trans.

[MarieDelta]

Do you really? I think you misremember...IIRC I said I can see why there would be a temptation to lie or maybe what I said was it's none of their damn business.

But then you'd never have to face the issue, would you? ENTITLED, you has it.

[DuckiesDarling]

Misrembering? Nope.

Re: Wow....what does this court ruling mean for our friends?



http://www.bisexual.com/forum/images/styles/lifeElement/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by DuckiesDarling http://www.bisexual.com/forum/images/styles/lifeElement/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?p=177342#post177342)
Name one what? Another way they might have been found out? Anyone who recognized Nikki from school as Justin who said hello. Any medical issue that cropped up that is typically a male problem. When her husband pressed her to get infertility treatments because he wanted more kids... there are a lot of ways. Secrets never stay a secret when there are medical records.

We do not know she was intersexed, we have the parents stating she had CAIS, we have a birth certificate listing gender as male, which implies she was born with male genitalia. We have Nikki herself stating she had gender reassignment surgery. There are many things we do not know and that will probably come out in the court case.

And there are plenty of examples on this site of people who love and be loved no matter the status of their sexuality or their past, people who have partners that stand firm and face all obstacles together.



First it is unlikely that someone would "recognize her". I've had people that I worked with walk right past me or even talk to me and never recogize that I am who I am. In fact a gf's children recently asked her where she knew me from when I showed up in male mode(from doing some particularrly nasty job) to pick her up. Yes, they know me in female mode, have talked to me, and sat next to me for longer than five minutes.

Typical male medical issues? Prostate cancer? Treated with estrogen and (sometimes) removal of testes (SRS does similar things.) What other "typical male" medical issues would you be thinking of?

Infertility treatments would be treated with the answer that the ovaries either never developed due to birth defect or were removed due to health reasons( "I've had my reproductive organs removed, sorry dear".)

As far as medical records, those are sealed for privacy, to my knowledge only you and your Dr have access to them without specifically granting someone permision, and that includes your spouse.

I'm not specifically addressing her case when I bring up intersexxed issues. However what if a chromosome test revealed that she was , in fact intersexxed? Would that change the issue? How do you define someone's gender? Based on what the Dr saw when he inspected you at birth? that can be very misleading as there are things that go on (gender and sex wise) that are not apparent to the naked eye.

As far as a serious accident and treating you as male? I do know post op transwomen who have had to explain their medical past to Drs, and to my knowlege in a serious accident, most things that are done to save a persons life are similar. The only difference being perhaps in the reproductive area and even that, post SRS, could be explained as being intersexxed. Which, if you stop to think about it, based on current medical findings, transsexual women are intersexxed.


All anyone needs to do it click my name in the quote and it will go right to the thread and they will see your reply.

[Long Duck Dong]

ok you two.... time out... and go to your separate corners...........

marie, seriously..... its time that you realise that many people see trans as people too, not just sex objects..... you are a prime example of how a trans person can be happily married and loved dearly by a partner, you could share your experiences about that in a blog and show people a aspect of life that is not really visible that much to people...... but instead, there is consistently the poor trans / trans are nothing but freaks and victims, posts in the site.......

cisgender people can be treated the same way, they are often seen as sex objects, cocks tits and ass, not people, so its not just a trans thing...... unless you constantly restrict trans people to sex objects and you have the chance to change that by sharing aspects of your marriage and your life as a wife in a loving marriage.... something that is a fucking positive image to portray to people in the site.....

I am intersexed, I suffer from a mental illness, I have a asexual nature...etc.... but how often do you see me constantly play the victim card ...... I don't..... but I could talk freely about the negative and positive aspects of how I deal with the different aspects in my life........ and the same for you..... and all of the other trans people in the site..... unfortunately there appears to be a near constant negative reaction to any remarks, posts and threads refering to trans people... and its made it near impossible for anybody to talk about being with trans people as partners or for casual sex, cos you seem to want to push the idea that no trans person enjoys or has sex as a trans person or being seen as a sex object...... yet one of your heros, buck angel, uses their image as a money making aspect of their life.......

YES marie, trans suffer a lot of shit.... but you are married, happily married to a loving partner..... and you could share about how it felt to be the blushing bride in a blog..... and bring something positive into the site from a trans persons point of view...... you and rock are in a unique situation, being married and you could really use that to your advantage, for the benefit of the many trans and cisgender people that would love to be in the situation that you and rock are in..... or you could just dwell on the negative aspects of being trans and the discrimination etc that you are dealing with.......

yes I live in a country with anti discrimination laws and I have a lot of trans friends that are at various stages of their transition and in all walks of their lives, but I will be dead honest, the difference between my trans friends and this site, is that my trans friends are very rarely playing the victim card, cos they do not take exception to every thing that is said about trans people..... including trans being objected as sex objects, she males / lady boys etc.... cos they are aware that the same thing happens in the cis gender community as well.....and its simply a aspect of life... there is no point in taking everything personally and making it about them so they can go after other people..........

a couple of them have visited the site as guests and they have made the remark about how trans people in this site are their own worst enemy at times with the way they react to everything said about trans.... and they have noticed, with interest about the way you approach things, and talk about how people objectify trans people as sex objects etc, yet you are married and proof that people are interested in trans people as real partners not just trans partners but real partners cos you are a real person and loved dearly........

marie, you are more than just a trans person, you are a wife, a partner, a lover, a sexual person etc.....and you, like the rest of the trans people, could bring a real positive warm, rich trans community feel to the site, but it would require the trans people to stop taking offense to anything said about trans that you disagree with, in the same way a lot of the cisgender community ignore the way that some people objectify trans and cis gender people as sex objects ( cock tits and ass ) and talk with the people that treat people as people, including the trans and cis gender community .......

my trans friends treat questions as questions, and answer them as questions, without going after people and telling them that they are insulting and rude to the trans community.... and without constantly bringing up the she male issue etc and giving a lecture about how wrong and offensive it is to the trans community as they are aware that talking with people, is often better than going after them and calling them ignorant and misinformed...... and yes its a long and on going process..... for many of them, its been worth it as they have found loving and caring partners, like you and rock found each other.........

the choice is with the trans community, take offense to everything, go after people constantly, then get treated like lepers, or learn to have a thick skin, stop taking offense to everything, talk with people, accept that the world is not perfect and that cisgender are not always as *entitled * as you may think, and nor do many of them see themselves that way........and just be one of the crowd and find that a lot of the crowd like trans people that are themselves, not constantly victims and negative..... cos the cisgender people have to deal with a lot of the same shit at times, so there is plenty of brothers and sisters in arms.......

and no I am not saying for the trans community not to have a voice and a opinion .... I am just asking if it can stop being 95% negative and telling people how trans are victims and treated like freaks, cos some people actually love you and know there is a fucking site more postive aspects to be trans than is being posted..... IE marriage and being the blushing bride......

[MarieDelta]

Sorry...I do not wish to share a part of my life that is very private and sacred to me with this group. If you wish to know / hear about my wedding and marriage you would have to be someone I felt much more comfortable being that intimate in front of. My marriage is not a topic of discussion here.

I'm not sure what your health issues have to do with this issue. Seems like you've wandered off somewhere.

Lastly , I did not attack the OP...I asked a question of someone on a side issue and made statements regarding that issue. I answered the OP civilly, and accurately.

[Long Duck Dong]

marie, I was not saying to talk about your private life, and your marriage with details that do not need to be known, I was referring to the fact that you are in a unique situation of being a married trans lady and you could share a unique story about being a trans blushing bride and getting married, without giving any details about location or partner etc......

there is a number of people in the site that would be interested in advice and help with relationships and marriage with a trans person.... and your input is worth its weight in gold to those people..... and the same with rocks......

its a bit like me, I can talk about being in the military but most of the details I can never reveal to anybody.... but I can talk about wearing the uniform, how I felt, what I was thinking, how it came about, without revealing the personal details......

what my health issues have to do with anything, is the areas where you made mention of trans people being seen as intersex, the way that intersex are included under the trans umbrella etc, so I kinda think that my remarks about being intersex and dealing with being intersex, was relevant as it would include me ( by defination ) in with the trans community........

I am getting the feeling again, of why bother, cos it seems like all that people want to do, is wallow in self pity and push a victimisation attitude in the site and jump on anybody that mentions anything trans.... and even if its positive form of *negative * thing, IE enjoying shemales / trans / lady boys in a sexual way....that its going to end up with a repeat of treat trans people like they are human, not sex objects etc etc etc, but when people come to the trans people with the interest of talking with them qenuinely and openly with a interest in learning about trans people, they are going to get the brush off.......

seriously, the trans people are a unique and wonderful aspect of the LGBT community and many people like / love them for who they are......but its clear that this site is not the right place to show a interest or add support to the diverse trans community...... I think I will stick to my real life trans friends in future and refer people to them for help and advice

[æonpax]

I think the words that you're looking for are "cis" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender) and "trans" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender) ...
Reminds me of something...oh yeah Mich Womens Music Festival, but then what do I know I'm just a stupid tranny, right?
Radfems everywhere are rejoicing, I am sure. sigh

I have found that there are certain people in this world that look for occasions to be offended. These kinds of people cut across all beliefs and divisions in the multicolored spectrum of humanity. If something offensive is not apparent, they will twist, reconfigure and malign statements until they find one, then huff and puff with all the righteous indignation and sarcasm they can muster. All’s more the pity. Rather than calmly correct or discuss a perceived slight, they become offensive and tend to wallow in their own self-pity. It becomes a wasted moment in time.

You can attract more bees with honey than you can with shit…don’t ya know?

[darkeyes]

An interesting discussion... while as such it can be argued with some merit that transgenderism in itself is not a bisexual issue, the fact that many tg peeps are themselves bisexual makes it as pertinent to bisexuality as is homosexuality and that makes the particular issues faced by the transgendered a bisexual matter.. there is a similar debate going on among many in the gay and lesbian communities and it does seem to me that there are many who would quite happily dismiss the transgendered as the quirk of nature that so many in the heterosexual community consider them... there are transgendered people who are of all sexualities and I do wish we would cut the gripes and accept them gladly into the fold of the lgbt.. yes they are in some ways very different from the other parts of the lgbt, and that bisexuals would accept equally as gladly those who are bisexual as their own just like any other bisexual and realising that some are bisexual, accept that transgendered issues are by extension, bisexual issues like any other...

[æonpax]

An interesting discussion... while as such it can be argued with some merit that transgenderism in itself is not a bisexual issue, the fact that many tg peeps are themselves bisexual makes it as pertinent to bisexuality as is homosexuality and that makes the particular issues faced by the transgendered a bisexual matter.. there is a similar debate going on among many in the gay and lesbian communities and it does seem to me that there are many who would quite happily dismiss the transgendered as the quirk of nature that so many in the heterosexual community consider them... there are transgendered people who are of all sexualities and I do wish we would cut the gripes and accept them gladly into the fold of the lgbt.. yes they are in some ways very different from the other parts of the lgbt, and that bisexuals would accept equally as gladly those who are bisexual as their own just like any other bisexual and realising that some are bisexual, accept that transgendered issues are by extension, bisexual issues like any other...

You bring up a some good points, first being that TS is not inherently a bisexual issue. Nonetheless, it does fall under the LGBT umbrella and it is good to find discussions (not necessarily this one) where one pursues "commonality" as opposed to differences.

I dated a TS a few years back and while we had some very, VERY good times, she was also a bit too skittish about herself which eventually drove a wedge between us. I just couldn't deal with always walking on pins and needles, fearful that I might accidentally say something offense. Such is life.

[MarieDelta]

Interesting. You started this discussion, I did not. You still feel that you are a "real" woman and that people like me are not. This is at the core of what I am telling you. We may have dissimilar experiences, but we have many similar experiences. I am a woman, just like any other.

[MarieDelta]

marie...

Not sure what you are talking about. But it seems way off topic.

[darkeyes]

I dated a TS a few years back and while we had some very, VERY good times, she was also a bit too skittish about herself which eventually drove a wedge between us. I just couldn't deal with always walking on pins and needles, fearful that I might accidentally say something offense. Such is life.
I have never dated a transperson.. in fact Marie was the first I ever spoke to and on this site... it is only a very few years since I was physically, knowingly, in the company of one.. I may have never ridiculed TG peeps like many, but I was painfully ignorant of them and Marie and one or two others helped me gain some inkling of what it means. Now I have met and have gotten to know several transwomen and the longer I know them and more I see of them, and read of them on this site and elsewhere I increasingly empathise with their plight..

Bisexuals are not alone in almost dismissing Transpeeps as something with which they can identify.. they are no different in that regard to gay, lesbians and heterosexuals.. many do have empathy and do care about making their lives better and welcoming them into the fold of humanity. But far too many of all sexualities continue to dismiss them as a curiosity.. they are too many, men in particular a curiosity they would like to fuck and nothing else.. we just need to scan many of the discussions on "She males" and "Trannies" to realise that. Only a week or so ago, I had to take my brother and his friends to task for being both contemptuous and dismissive of transwomen... to them they aren't real women but freakshows.. something to find, feel, fuck and forget.. an experience which is desirable, but not an experience of any real meaning except a warped sexual gratification and certainly not one they would like to share their lives with and treat seriously as a human being.. far too often people on this site and people of all sexualities in real life feel and speak in just the same way. We forget that we too are curiosities, or at least are treated as such by much of the rest of humanity..and it is that we strive to erradicate..

I speak of transwomen here, but having never met a transman, I have even less knowledge of their lives... but I do know from reading and listening to people around me that they are considered every bit as great biological curiosities as any transwoman... in many ways even more so..

We talk of the transgendered and their problems and their desires yet we show them far too little respect.. we do not understand that being TG is not a sexuality, and we do not understand that people who are TG are like biological men and women.. among their number are those who are gay, straight and bisexual.. understanding that concept appears beyond so many of us whatever our gender and whatever our sexuality. We do not treat them seriously nor are we particularly welcoming of them...

Whether I could fall in love with a transperson isn't really that relevant.. I have no doubt that in the right circumstances and with the right person I probably could.. most of us have that capacity within us but most dismiss it as a possibility because most consider transpeeps as something less than they are themselves and so barriers are raised...for far too many of us, bisexual, str8, gay or lesbian, they are there to be desired, even wanted and used, but not to love and share a life with and be considered a human being..

The attitudes of so many in our societies, irrespective of their sexuality need changing, and those who are transgendered need our love and support..and our respect and as far as we can provide it, our understanding.. at the very least an effort to learn about and understand who they are and why they are.. they are far more than just a she-male or trannie who is there for for your pleasure..

[Tom P]

I dont post and I'm sorry to say, you're an Idiot!

QUOTE=BatCox40;224640]I like the above diagram it is pretty clear in explaining the four categories: Gender Identity, gender expression, biological sex and sexual orientation. It kind of answers my question that it is down to the individual (the transsexual themselves) in question to decide from the four above aspects. What may be confusing are the conclusions that could be drawn from the different combinations.

For a male to female pre-op transsexual

Gender identity = Woman
gender expression = i think that most likely be feminine
biological sex = male because they are pre-op and have a penis.
Sexual orientation = This depends on what sex they are attracted to or having sex with. Here is the easy bit..only having sexual relationship with males is heterosexual, only having sexual relationship with females is homosexual, either is bisexual. Now here is the part i am not sure about is when a transsexual is with another transsexual as sometimes seen in porn. Since two M to F transsexuals identify their gender as female then my conclusion is this is homosexual.

It also shows that a man whose gender expression to be feminine could be regarded as Camp. In contrast to a butch woman whose gender expression is masculine.[/QUOTE]