If you think Dan Savage hates Bisexuals, please read this. It's reasonable, IMO.

[keladry]

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2011/08/16/9534403-case-closed-bisexual-men-exist/

Okay? Really people calm the fuck down. I like Dan Savage get over it. Discuss all you want but I'm just gonna post what he said and leave myself the fuck out of it.


Something else he said, more inflammatory less science. Still pretty reasonable.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/bisexuals/Content?oid=8743322

[RavenEye]

Great, I feel so much better knowing that I exist according to Dan Savage because science thwarted his previous opinion...

[DuckiesDarling]

Personally, I think too much time is spent on the opinions of people like Dan Savage and Rush Limbaugh and Rick Santorum. Nothing that is posted on a site they wouldn't dream of joining will ever affect them in any way shape or form. Guess it makes people feel better to spill their bile but it gets old. There have been countless threads on here and to me, it's just giving them the attention they crave. It's why they make such blanket statements, but everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether or not others agree with that opinion. When we are constantly told to only think one way and be one way that is when we all stop being unique and start being like Stepford Wives :2cents:

[drugstore cowboy]

Have you ever actually read anything that Dan Savage has said about bisexuals? It's based on nothing but biphobia, bisexual erasure, and bigotry. He has also been this way towards transgendered people and African Americans. He's just as bad as people like Rick Santorum and Rev. Phelps but he's a gay man so it makes him even more of a hypocrite.

[Sonja]

Have you ever actually read anything that Dan Savage has said about bisexuals? It's based on nothing but biphobia, bisexual erasure, and bigotry. He has also been this way towards transgendered people and African Americans. He's just as bad as people like Rick Santorum and Rev. Phelps but he's a gay man so it makes him even more of a hypocrite.

Cowboy: I agree with you completely.

[Sonja]

I will have to second what IanBorthwick said in: calling out the Implicit Racism In Dan Savage's Politics the 'Its gets better project.

Posted By:
IanBorthwick
March, 06, 2012
At 1 am.


Now, for the real facts instead of the WARM and FUZZIES....

IN his interview with someone asking, after the latest study on Bisexuality put him in his place, he used his prior attacks to vindicate himself, asking WHY was it hate when he said it and WHY was it valid when a researcher did it. And if we supposed he was the worst enemy of Bisexuals, then we had already lost the fight...a threat.

Oh MY! That's so "Evolved" I nearly missed it because I was waiting for,"I'm gonna make youse an offer dat youse can't refuse..."

Basing an opinion on what you want to believe rather than the facts is amazingly myopic and will, in every case, get you a nasty wake up call down the line. When this study came out, Savage POUNCED like a reckless, angry, once bitten, bigot he is. And used the Straw-Man study to jam his rhetoric up our collective asses for years to come in many talks he gave. I can link them, but it wouldn't shake you out of that stupor you placed yourself in because, well sweetheart, he wasn't after YOU. He was after me, and others like me. Male Bisexuals. He painted women only mildly in the same manner because he realized he was going to have to make the most of his interviews.

Reality, he was called to the carpet by so many people, reporters, angry bloggers, pissed off gay men in love with bisexuals, and so on and so forth. Because of him an entire culture hidden beneath the weight of the reality they needed to behave acted out at Pride in Long Beach and were admonished, not allowed to be part of the parade, and the Klein Institute, which helped start San Diego Pride felt threatened for setting up a booth there.

I'll believe he evolved when I see the Grand Wizard of the KKK crying at MLK Jr's grave. SOmething so ingrained as what Savage has in him will take epic effort on HIS part to remove, but he's always acted like Sharon Osbourne after being made to apologize for LOVING the idea of a mutilated man on day time TV...the exact OPPOSITE of contrite.


And add some of my own.

As a life long bisexual. This means I knew I was bisexual at 5 and I'm almost 34 now and I'm still bisexual. What Savage says is a flat out attack and I don't like his hate for the Bisexual community. As IF he is the authority on and or in the LGBT Community. He's not. The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he has the biggest mouth. I will stick with worthwhile people sharing and stating worthwhile information. If I want an idiot that panders to the hetero community, while saying he's gay but hates part of the lbgt community. Then I'll listen to his worthless diatribe. Since I don't have any interest in his trash, I'm all set.

There is NOTHING honest in his hypocricy, bigotry and verbal abuse towards the bisexual and transgender communities. As well as his racial hate speech toward the Black community.

[IanBorthwick]

Fact...opinions are like Assholes. We all have them, most really stink. This opinion needs a breath mint...because this isn't a matter of "I think" it's a matter of actions speak louder than retractions. I KNOW he dislikes us and has made a generation or more of gays and lesbians dislike us.

And as I have known I was bisexual since I had a crush on Nichelle Nichols and George Takei when I was 5 watching reruns of Amok Time, I have to say this PHASE is not passing so effing fast, Annika! I'm 40! I still love to men and I still love women.

One of the epic failures I remember encountering when I came out was when someone I was talking to was interrupted as we spoke. She and I are bisexuals, and a lady butted in and said:

"There are NO such things as bisexuals! Where do you get that garbage?"

We looked at each other, nodded because we knew where this was going and almost on cue both asked,"Where did you get THAT idea from?"

"I have a gay friend...." we didn't hear the rest as we broke down into peels of laughter.

Get the jist of where this is going?

[Annika L]

I have to say this PHASE is not passing so effing fast, Annika! I'm 40! I still love to men and I still love women.

Ian, stop being an ass. You attack me in a thread I've never even posted in? Wtf is that?

Guess what? I'm 45! And *I* am still attracted to both men and women! Woweee! There are bisexuals in the world, and I'm one of them! That's not a news flash, hon.

I never claimed in this thread or elsewhere that bisexuality is a phase for you or for people generally. Look it up. I never said it. I would never say it. It's not true. All I said (in another thread, mind you) is that for some it is. Do you honestly disagree with that? Are you capable of hearing that without taking it personally? It's not a statement about you at all. It's a statement about many other people. Not most. But many.

Do not put words in my mouth, and do not ascribe opinions to me, when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about. In short, take your crap elsewhere.

[void()]

I too am a life long bisexual person. Apologies, I do not see a point in getting worked up over the opinion of fluff. I watched the video in the other thread in order to comprehend him as a person. My opinion of him is pretty well nil.

He seemed to be as useless as teets on a bull warthog, far as I'm concerned. There was no substance behind him which I could see. So, I'm not arsed to think the world is ending because he says some people transition. Gee, "some people change", seems to be really all he said. Thanks Captain Obvious, I would have never sorted that.

By the by, I'm forty and figured something out when about six or seven. At thirteen it was confirmed by enjoying one of each and deciding I saw no difference really. I could say it's surprising to see several adults here behave as children, unfortunately that's par for the course and not surprising at all. Any wonder I limit time and emotional involvement here?

[pepperjack]

I will have to second what IanBorthwick said in: calling out the Implicit Racism In Dan Savage's Politics the 'Its gets better project.

Posted By:
IanBorthwick
March, 06, 2012
At 1 am.




And add some of my own.

As a life long bisexual. This means I knew I was bisexual at 5 and I'm almost 34 now and I'm still bisexual. What Savage says is a flat out attack and I don't like his hate for the Bisexual community. As IF he is the authority on and or in the LGBT Community. He's not. The only thing he has going for him is the fact that he has the biggest mouth. I will stick with worthwhile people sharing and stating worthwhile information. If I want an idiot that panders to the hetero community, while saying he's gay but hates part of the lbgt community. Then I'll listen to his worthless diatribe. Since I don't have any interest in his trash, I'm all set.

There is NOTHING honest in his hypocricy, bigotry and verbal abuse towards the bisexual and transgender communities. As well as his racial hate speech toward the Black community.


What is EVER honest about hypocrisy, bigotry and verbal abuse?

[darkeyes]

Ian, stop being an ass. You attack me in a thread I've never even posted in? Wtf is that?

Guess what? I'm 45! And *I* am still attracted to both men and women! Woweee! There are bisexuals in the world, and I'm one of them! That's not a news flash, hon.

I never claimed in this thread or elsewhere that bisexuality is a phase for you or for people generally. Look it up. I never said it. I would never say it. It's not true. All I said (in another thread, mind you) is that for some it is. Do you honestly disagree with that? Are you capable of hearing that without taking it personally? It's not a statement about you at all. It's a statement about many other people. Not most. But many.

Those that subscribe to the theory that sexuality can never change are as arrogant as those who claim bisexuality does not exist.. for many it does and they move through the spectrum of sexualities in their life.. some will move from heterosexual to bisexual.. some who were always bisexual will become gay or lesbian (as in my own case).. why we are who we are is not properly understood and may never be.. equally why our sexuality changes, or in some fluctuates is another mystery we may never solve.. just as we will never solve many other mysteries tied up with sexuality of the human being.. there is no mould.. we are all just so different...

[tenni]

Those that subscribe to the theory that sexuality can never change are as arrogant as those who claim bisexuality does not exist.. for many it does and they move through the spectrum of sexualities in their life.. some will move from heterosexual to bisexual.. some who were always bisexual will become gay or lesbian (as in my own case).. why we are who we are is not properly understood and may never be.. equally why our sexuality changes, or in some fluctuates is another mystery we may never solve.. just as we will never solve many other mysteries tied up with sexuality of the human being.. there is no mould.. we are all just so different...

darkeyes
Another way of looking at your thesis or the thesis on sexuality is that a person's sexuality doesn't change but their attraction and strength of sexual/emotional attraction may change several times in a person's life. When a gay person realizes that they are becoming aware of sexual attraction to opposite gender after years of same sex attraction and no cross gender attraction, why not consider that they were just as bisexual as a person who thought that they were heterosexual realize their sexual attraction to same sex people. Both are bisexual and over a lifetime the strength of gender attraction changes. If a person had sexual attraction to both genders but now only have sexual/emotional attraction to one gender doesn't change their sexuality. They are still bisexual.

[The Bisexual Virgin]

wow this man sure does have a lot of hate and racism to be a gay man. So the only people he can tolerate to be around is fellow gay white men.If I did not know any better he might need to join the KKK, if they would accept him, who knows what they do behind close doors.

[drugstore cowboy]

wow this man sure does have a lot of hate and racism to be a gay man. So the only people he can tolerate to be around is fellow gay white men.If I did not know any better he might need to join the KKK, if they would accept him, who knows what they do behind close doors. Sadly there are a lot of gay men who are just like him. They do it when they think that nobody is going to be offended or when they think it's OK and they can get away with it. Or others like Savage are very blatant about how they're racist. I've seen it time and time again especially when men use the whole racist "big black dick" myth and stereotype.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
Another way of looking at your thesis or the thesis on sexuality is that a person's sexuality doesn't change but their attraction and strength of sexual/emotional attraction may change several times in a person's life. When a gay person realizes that they are becoming aware of sexual attraction to opposite gender after years of same sex attraction and no cross gender attraction, why not consider that they were just as bisexual as a person who thought that they were heterosexual realize their sexual attraction to same sex people. Both are bisexual and over a lifetime the strength of gender attraction changes. If a person had sexual attraction to both genders but now only have sexual/emotional attraction to one gender doesn't change their sexuality. They are still bisexual.
Tenni.. u r not listening.... u r getting as bad as those gay guys that tell u that u r really just an old queen cos bisexuality doesn't exist. Try and understand that sexuality is so complex we do not understand it all yet and may never understand it.. ne thing and everything may be possible...

[_Joe_]

The jury is still out for Eggs -- I'll take opinions of science on bisexuality with a grain of salt.

[tenni]

Tenni.. u r not listening.... u r getting as bad as those gay guys that tell u that u r really just an old queen cos bisexuality doesn't exist. Try and understand that sexuality is so complex we do not understand it all yet and may never understand it.. ne thing and everything may be possible...

darkeyes
I am listening to you. I'm saying that you are not like some of us who are bisexual. You and Savage do not help us but instead create a problem for those who recognize their bisexuality(sexual and or emotional attraction to both genders). If you once were sexually/emotionally attracted to both genders and are no longer...you are something else... or you are in an ebb and flow that has flowed to being attracted to only one gender. You don't know nor can claim that you may not ebb again before you die. Yes, anything is possible but acknowledge that if you were once under the bisexual umbrella that you are not like many/most of other bisexuals.

[Annika L]

darkeyes
I am listening to you. I'm saying that you are not like some of us who are bisexual. You and Savage do not help us but instead create a problem for those who recognize their bisexuality(sexual and or emotional attraction to both genders). If you once were sexually/emotionally attracted to both genders and are no longer...you are something else... or you are in an ebb and flow that has flowed to being attracted to only one gender. You don't know nor can claim that you may not ebb again before you die. Yes, anything is possible but acknowledge that if you were once under the bisexual umbrella that you are not like many/most of other bisexuals.

tenni, your definitions still don't make sense to me. In another thread, you defined bisexuality in such a way that if a person was once attracted to both sexes but has now reached a point where she is attracted only to women, then she was never bisexual; in this thread, you define it in such a way that such a person is *still* bisexual. Both definitions are problematic, because they do not admit that a person can change.

We don't do this with other definitions. When I met my partner, she had blonde hair. Over the years, her hair has darkened to the point where it could be taken for a light brown. If we defined blonde and brunette in the way you define sexuality, would we say that she was never really blonde? Or that she still is blonde? Either is silly. She *was* blonde. Now, she is brunette. What's the problem? Does this mean we're implying that *your* hair color will change? Certainly not! But hers did...and she is not unique in this regard...it happens to many people. Hasn't happened to me...but I can't rule out that it could. For now, I'm still quite brunette (though with reddish or blondish highlights depending on the season...omg!!).

I am sorry that the fact that some peoples' sexuality changes is so inconvenient for you. But some peoples' sexuality changes. No, they aren't like others whose sexuality doesn't change...their has changed. But a bisexual woman who eventually drifts more toward lesbianism (or becomes fully lesbian) needn't have been any less bisexual when she was younger. The only way she can go wrong (in my opinion) is if she tries to generalize her experience to *all* bisexuals' experiences.

No, Fran can't know the future any better than you can. I agree with you there. But to claim that she either is still bisexual or was never bisexual, to me, seems far too presumptive. Better to accept that she was, is no more to the best of her knowledge, but may be again (and *if* that happens, she may then have perspective on whether or not she was really bi all along).

And regardless of what she *is* (or even what she was), there is still the identity question. She *did* identify as bisexual (perhaps mistakenly, perhaps not, but she did identify that way). She no longer does (perhaps mistakenly, perhaps not, but she no longer identifies as bisexual). So for her, regardless of what absolute definitions you might put on her sexuality then and now, her sexuality identification has changed...for her, identification as a bisexual (for *her* dammit, not for everyone!!) was a phase.

[tenni]

Annika
Yes, I did post it both ways and both ways are possible to explain what I and other bisexuals am not. Savage refers to people who identify as bisexual only later to recognize themself as gay. They were never bisexual. It may also be stated in the sense that they are still bisexual even though they identify as gay. We don't know. They know how they see themself at this moment in time. When I first was trying to figure out wft I was I spoke with gay men. I asked them several questions about their relationship with women and men. Men who had been married to women stated that they loved their wife but had never been in love with their wives. Its a similar confusing statement I think. That doesn't exclude both being true. I will also admit that I may be processing from my first statement to the second. I have perhaps failed reasoning and am a flawed human who may be wrong.

Yes, our minds can change as well as our bodies. If someone wishes to state that their sexuality changed rather than their attraction strenth, I and others can state that you are not like us. If we change, then we may be like them. Or they may change again and recognize that they were always bisexual. I myself, have changed and reflected on whether I was still bisexual. I know that I am even though the strength of attraction is not constant. Someone who changes to a point that they no longer identify as bisexual was probably something and may be something other than those of us who continue to meet the definition of bisexuality. They need to find a new name if they want a label. If they want to call themself as lesbian that is fine. Just be aware that you never were like those who continue to see themself as bisexual for decades. It is very plausable that there are many categories under a bisexual umbrella.

Yes, Annika you are quite correct about the use of the word "identify" but that is not the definition for bisexuality. Savages position doesn't matter. There are men who suck cock and get anally fucked who say identify that they are hetero. If the world accepted sexuality as irrelevant it wouldn't matter. That is not the world as it is now. Those that wish to work towards such an attitude may do so. First, I would like to see bisexuality as accepted as real and a sexuality. Losely goosey just won't make much head way imo.

[Annika L]

Annika
Yes, I did post it both ways and both ways are possible to explain what I and other bisexuals am not. Savage refers to people who identify as bisexual only later to recognize themself as gay. They were never bisexual. It may also be stated in the sense that they are still bisexual even though they identify as gay. We don't know. They know how they see themself at this moment in time. When I first was trying to figure out wft I was I spoke with gay men. I asked them several questions about their relationship with women and men. Men who had been married to women stated that they loved their wife but had never been in love with their wives. Its a similar confusing statement I think. That doesn't exclude both being true. I will also admit that I may be processing from my first statement to the second. I have perhaps failed reasoning and am a flawed human who may be wrong.

Yes, our minds can change as well as our bodies. If someone wishes to state that their sexuality changed rather than their attraction strenth, I and others can state that you are not like us. If we change, then we may be like them. Or they may change again and recognize that they were always bisexual. I myself, have changed and reflected on whether I was still bisexual. I know that I am even though the strength of attraction is not constant. Someone who changes to a point that they no longer identify as bisexual was probably something and may be something other than those of us who continue to meet the definition of bisexuality. They need to find a new name if they want a label. If they want to call themself as lesbian that is fine. Just be aware that you never were like those who continue to see themself as bisexual for decades. It is very plausable that there are many categories under a bisexual umbrella.

Yes, Annika you are quite correct about the use of the word "identify" but that is not the definition for bisexuality. Savages position doesn't matter. There are men who suck cock and get anally fucked who say identify that they are hetero. If the world accepted sexuality as irrelevant it wouldn't matter. That is not the world as it is now. Those that wish to work towards such an attitude may do so. First, I would like to see bisexuality as accepted as real and a sexuality. Losely goosey just won't make much head way imo.

tenni, once more I appreciate where you're coming from here. And I do appreciate that you are continuing to process these issues, as am I...as I said in the other thread, this whole discussion has been extremely thought-provoking for me (or I wouldn't be engaging in it).

Of course people like Fran are different from you (and from me). Their sexuality (or at least their sexual identity) has shifted, whereas ours has not. I don't think we need a new word for that, although I suppose we could create one. I don't think Fran or others in her position would argue that they *are* bisexuals. Simply that they *were* bisexuals. I think it is problematic to require that in order to meet the definition of "bisexual", a person has to enjoy sex with both men and women throughout their entire life...if that is our definition, then it is completely unknowable whether a given person is bisexual until they die...such definitions simply aren't useful as definitions. Politically expedient perhaps, but not useful as definitions.

Now let's talk about political expediency for a moment, since it is clearly on your mind (and I'm not implying this is a bad thing, as it's often on my mind as well). I too would like to see bisexuality accepted as a real sexuality. And I recognize completely that it does not at all help our common cause that: some people's sexuality shifts during their lifetime, sometimes more than once; some people are mistaken about their sexuality for long periods of time; some people adopt sexual identities for utilitarian reasons, rather than because they are trying to describe their experience of reality as best they can. That last group is the only one that pisses me off, frankly. The other two are simply part of reality. And as much as they may hurt our political cause, I don't think it helps our political cause to try to create definitions that deny important parts of reality. I agree that acknowledging the fact that some bisexuals shift complicates matters, especially for people who are genuinely trying to understand bisexuality...but some do. We can't simply sweep them under the rug because they don't serve our political cause...that looks fishy to onlookers, and is disrespectful to the reality of those people who are being swept. For the time she identified as bisexual, Fran (in my understanding) identified as such as much as you or I do now...you can try to use language to create new words to sideline people like that...but I think it's more politically expedient to put forth the message that plenty of bisexuals remain bisexual throughout their lifetime, but some also change, or come to their bisexuality late, or are initially mistaken about it. In the end, truth will win out.

But in the end, I don't hear Fran asking for a label. I think at the moment, she's satisfied with "lesbian". But it's also reasonable for her to want to acknowledge that she once was bisexual, and as it sounds like that was her practice as well as her identity for a long time, I'll defend her right to claim that acknowledgement.

Finally, tenni, let me add that I would much prefer to be able to discuss all of this with you face to face, in a pub, over a pint of Sleeman ale, rather than in a back-and-forth across the internet. Again, I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this topic.

[void()]

The jury is still out for Eggs -- I'll take opinions of science on bisexuality with a grain of salt.

I know. One day eggs are the be all end all food, the next you better run from them like they are a plague. And then, "oh we were mistaken, eggs are still good for you."

This causes me to really want fucking pants. One day my brother's wife was complaining about her pants being too tight. "These fucking pants are too tight, they're fucking me to death." My immediate thought was "oh but what a way to go, pants fucking you". So now, dispute over eggs or no, I want some fucking pants. :)

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
I am listening to you. I'm saying that you are not like some of us who are bisexual. You and Savage do not help us but instead create a problem for those who recognize their bisexuality(sexual and or emotional attraction to both genders). If you once were sexually/emotionally attracted to both genders and are no longer...you are something else... or you are in an ebb and flow that has flowed to being attracted to only one gender. You don't know nor can claim that you may not ebb again before you die. Yes, anything is possible but acknowledge that if you were once under the bisexual umbrella that you are not like many/most of other bisexuals.
I don't claim anything other than I am what I am. It may be that in time I shall drift back as u suggest but it does not seem so... I am more certain of my sexuality now than last year or the year before and the inexorable drift to sexual attraction for my own gender seems to be making me nothing if not more assuredly so.. I create u no problem except insofar as I am not of u.. I am not attracted to both genders, but I do not dismiss the sexuality of people who are... I accept it quite happily and do what I can to ease their passage through the world.. I am on ur side however much u do not think it...

I am not Dan Savage and have a far healthier attitude to bisexual people than ever he seems to have.. ever since the day dawned on me that I am not a bisexual woman but lesbian, I have always acknowledged that I am different from those who are bisexual.. women who are bisexual are different from men who are bisexual also and men from each other in how their bisexuality is formed.. we are all unique human beings... there is no mould from which we spring... different I certainly am, but I came from among ur number, live with one of ur number, have friends, both male and female who are of ur number and have far more empathy and understanding of and for for bisexuals than many bisexuals have for their own kind.. that I came from among u does not mean that because I am different I cannot understand.. no one can understand everything, but my history and my life having so much bisexuality around me, and liking and loving bisexuals. I understand far more than u give credit in part because I remember what it was like and how I felt...... it is an imperfect understanding but when I read what some bisexuals on this site write, it is a greater understanding than u seem to credit...