Cheating Part 2

[stu.gottz]

Thank you all for your responses which were about what I would have expected. Cheating is cheating and it is wrong. I'm curious when it becomes acceptable and not cheating. Again I am not interested in textbook responses and definitions but personal reflections.

Consider some of the following real world circumstances and remember what I am asking is not for answers in the abstract but how you would behave and why.

Assume your committed partner\spouse to whom you have promised fidelity and to whom you have been loyal (this is not a bi\open relationship issue) is stricken with an affliction that renders them incapable of sex. Your partner is either incapable (because of brain injury or disease) of understanding your request for other sexual partners or unwilling, religious convictions etc. to grant permission.

Furthermore you truly deeply love your partner and do not wish to cause them pain and leaving him\her is not an acceptable option because they are dependent on you for survival, physical\mental.

Is it still cheating (yes or no)?

Would you do if it were your partner?

Would it be okay if your partner did it if it were you?

The above scenarios have their basis in the real world in people I know, have known and have heard of so I am not looking for a discussion of the validity of the scenarios just your opinions and how you would behave.

Thanks

[Annika L]

What awesome meat for exploration!

But Stu, the whole way I approach decisions in my real life *is* through definitions and thinking about what words and rules really mean. So I don't think it's quite fair to say we can't use them in responding to your situation here.

I stand by my definition, interpretations and principles I expressed in the previous thread.

If the partner was conscious...able to grant permission...but unwilling to do so...then I'd say that if the rules cannot be renegotiated, you have two justifiable choices:
(1) follow the rules; or
(2) end the relationship.

You say you can't end the relationship...I don't buy that premise. If your need for sex is that great, you can still support the person, for Pete's sake...you don't have to be a complete jerk and run out on them...but have the guts to stand up for what you're doing. What? I love them so much that I don't want to hurt them, but they don't love me enough to consider my needs in the longterm? Hmmm. I have a problem with loving someone that selfish...I think their unwillingness to compromise would give me the strength I need to make the decision to end the relationship (not to run out). But I don't find cheating to be right just because I want something my partner thinks I shouldn't have, and I'd previously agreed with them, but now changed my mind.

Ok, so let's consider what if the person is unconscious and unable to give consent. I have two situations to consider here.

The first is where I'm near-positive my partner *would* consent if they were conscious. In this case, I'd say that after waiting so long for them to regain consciousness that I just can't take it any more (not saying I can see that happening, but let's grant it), yes, I would make the decision for them (as their partner, I'm qualified to make decisions for them in their absence) and grant myself their consent...trusting that if/when they come out of it, they'll understand.

The second situation is where I'm genuinely not sure how they'd feel (even if I knew that under ordinary circumstances they'd be dead-set against me having sex outside the relationship, I couldn't be sure how they'd feel under *these* circumstances...even if we'd discussed this exact situation before, sometimes things change when you're actually *in* the situation...so I don't feel a need to address the situation where I *know* they'd be against it; just the one where I'm genuinely unsure). Here I think it would depend on how likely I thought they were to regain consciousness. If I thought it most likely that would never happen, then as far as I'm concerned, the relationship is technically ended...you can't have a relationship with a person who isn't there. I would still feel responsible for them, and would continue to care for them. But I would feel that *any* emotional obligations attached to our relationship were no longer valid, and I could take another lover. Of course, I'd want to be pretty darned sure they wouldn't wake up...I'd have to be prepared that if they did, I might have some explaining to do. But I wouldn't consider this situation cheating, because there is no longer an understanding between two people...I'm the only one who understands anything. If I had reason to think they would regain consciousness, I would do my best to hold out...but if I became convinced that consciousness would not be regained, then my previous answer applies. So I'd be asking a doctor what the timeframe for regaining consciousness should be...when that timeframe expired, I'd be re-evaluating things.

Hmmm, what if the doctor said my partner could regain consciousness any time in the next 20 years, and suppose my "gotta have sex or I'll just go absolutely insane" timeframe is much less than that (again, not saying I necessarily have such a thing, but let's suppose). Again, I certainly wouldn't abandon my partner...I would care for them. But obviously, when my "gotta have sex" timeline expired, it would not be in my partner's interest for me to go insane either. So in this situation, I might find myself having sex outside of the "relationship" (again, not really 2 people involved, although there might be if/when they wake up). I suppose, technically, it's cheating, since they haven't altered their exclusivity agreement with me. Would I feel guilty? Yes. Would I be concerned about what they *might* think when they wake up? Yes. But again, the alternative is presumably worse. Does that mean cheating is morally justified in this instance? I'm sorry, no it doesn't...but I'd do it anyway, and not feel *too* bad about it, unless it really hurt my partner upon awaking and discovering this.

I just read this to my partner, by the way, and she agreed with everything I wrote. And yes, if she followed this same formula, I'd be ok with that, too. ...yeah, certain contingencies could hurt...but I couldn't blame her for proceeding as she did.

So no, I guess none of the situations above made cheating justifiable. I feel strongly that cheating can be *understandable*...but that doesn't make it right or justify it. If you do it, *own* the fact that you're doing something wrong...I'm willing to bet it won't be the first time you did something wrong (not because you're a bad person, but because we all do things that are wrong sometimes). Don't try to rationalize it away as morally justifiable.

[Jobelorocks]

I agree with Annika. When you set up rules in a relationship, then obey them. If you don't like them, then get out. It is just selfish to go and betray your partner just to suit your wants. All meaningful relationships require sacrificing for the other person. Honesty and communication is the best policy. If you expect them to be honest to you, then you need to be honest with them. If you aren't honest with such a big thing as sleeping with other people, then who knows what else you are lying about?

Well, if your partner/spouse is unwilling to give you permission to sleep with other people, then yes it is cheating. When you go into a committed relationship and know that monogamy and fidelity is expected, then you are bound by that. If you love them, you will respect their wishes and not betray them especially in a time where they are already going through so much.

Now, if they were unable because of mental inability or is for whatever reason unable to consent, then it is a tougher one to call. I think this is more up to the individual and their judgments on if they think their spouse would approve or not under given circumstances.

Now if I was not okay with my husband sleeping with other people (because I could not perform intercourse) I would expect him to honor that (although I would not ask that of him). If my husband was unable to perform intercourse and would not consent for me to sleep with other's I would not do so.

If for some reason I couldn't consent, I would be cool with my husband sleeping with other's and he would be cool if I slept with others in that circumstance.

[elian]

Assume your committed partner\spouse to whom you have promised fidelity and to whom you have been loyal (this is not a bi\open relationship issue) is stricken with an affliction that renders them incapable of sex. Your partner is either incapable (because of brain injury or disease) of understanding your request for other sexual partners or unwilling, religious convictions etc. to grant permission.

Furthermore you truly deeply love your partner and do not wish to cause them pain and leaving him\her is not an acceptable option because they are dependent on you for survival, physical\mental.


Just because a partner can not have sex does not necessarily mean that they would be incapable of thinking lustful thoughts. If regaining sexual function is something they desired I would be willing I would investigate any medical treatments. You can only spend so much time in bed, sex isn't everything in a relationship so if I was deeply in love with my partner I would try to make the best of it and NOT CHEAT.

With or without sex, I would not abandon a partner with no explanation unless they were being downright abusive and hateful.. The hallmark of mature adults is that they can disagree and still remain friends. If I absolutely couldn't stand it anymore I would try to separate, hopefully amicably.

If they were comatose or unconscious I would probably pleasure myself, alone until I knew for certain that there was little chance of them regaining consciousness. For a while, depression over the potential of losing a mate probably would subdue my sex drive anyway.

In the case of extended separation - like say a year and I was comatose but then regained consciousness I might be sad but I would hope to have some empathy for their situation and I would accept it if they moved on as a result my extended unconscious state.

[tenni]

I think that this issue(s) are similar to making decisions about end of life. It might be best for each couple who are going to be promising fidelity to be required to go through exercises like this before committing so that they know each other's perspective before hand.

I know that when you have the right to determine what procedures may be done to some other person to keep them alive that you are asked to go through the possible scenarios with yourself and if possible the person that is giving the "Living Will". I have had to do this. I was able to confirm some aspects of end of life by consulting the person who still had a few abilities but could not deal with the actual forms. My views were what her views were. In the end though, the situation was not exactly as expected. All that you can do is understand the person's basic opinions and intent.

I know of a few people who have been in the situation where their partner is no longer capable of fulfilling any sexual act and/or the mental faculties are no longer viable. If I were in that situation and my partner and I had not discussed these scenarios, it would leave me in a quandry. Based on my present attitude towards monogamy, my partner would know that I would not make such a promise and I would not expect it of them should I be incapcitated. I would expect both ways that we would care for each other and insure safety and comfort but sexual fidelity would be pointless to expect from either.

[Gearbox]

Don't try to rationalize it away as morally justifiable.
Like monogamy you mean? What's moral about that?:tongue:

That's the trouble IMO. You start out with a set of rules defined to bind another to yourself and expect some outside universal cosmic fixed law of morality to support it. It doesn't.
Then you get 'cheaters' who are immoral as partners, but not immoral as people. The brain damage scenario make that a bit clearer.
Monogamy is about partners, and not people, nor love.

@OP- As a partner in that relationship:
1. Yes it's still cheating.
2. I hope I'd have the sense to.
3. Given those attributes, no I wouldn't! (Not MY non monogamous ones I mean.lol)

[Long Duck Dong]

lol

if my partner can not / will not have sex with me... shit happens, there would generally be a good reason and I am honestly not worried about a lack of sex in relationships, I have been there in the past...... so its not really a big deal

to me the true nature of a relationship is revealed when the going gets tough.... cos its too easy to talk about what we would do and how we would do it, but often its never under pressure...... so I have said to DD a number of times, that anybody can say * I love you and I will not let you down * but I have to be able to prove that before there comes a time where the truth of my words are put to the test......

if DD was no longer able to have sex, then indulging myself, is like a slap in the face to her, in my eyes, if I was to indulge myself... as its a way of saying, I love you, I care about you but I am not sharing your pain with you... and to me, that would be a failure as a partner....... and so if DD was not able to have sex with me, then I would immediately say, I have two hands and so do you..... wanking would be fine....

if it was me in the situation of being unable to have sex, I would immediately say, I can not have sex, how do you want to deal with things as I still have fingers, a tongue and we have toys..... if you are ok with that.....

if I was not in the situation where I was able to move / communicate, I trust that DD would deal with issues in whatever way she needed to..... but she would know that I was no going to judge her for her actions or choices.......
I trust DD when she says that she would not go off with another person... and I would not condemn her if she did........

different set of * rules * I know.... but I have always placed a higher standard of commitment and honor of a partner, on myself, than I have on my partner.... but in my eyes, my word is my bond, if I break my word to my partner then I have failed to be the partner that they thought they could believe in......

if DD was to take another lover, would I view it as cheating ?? nope, cos I have already told her that if that is what she needed to do, in order to keep her sanity, so be it....... cos in my case, I would not take a sexual partner, I would reach out for a friend that would be a shoulder to lean on and nothing more......

a person cheating on me, doesn't worry me.... its the betrayal of trust in my partner and the fact that they can not be honest with me, that is the issue.... not the sex.......

[Annika L]

Like monogamy you mean? What's moral about that?:tongue:

That's the trouble IMO. You start out with a set of rules defined to bind another to yourself and expect some outside universal cosmic fixed law of morality to support it. It doesn't.
Then you get 'cheaters' who are immoral as partners, but not immoral as people. The brain damage scenario make that a bit clearer.
Monogamy is about partners, and not people, nor love.


Geary, you misunderstand. I never said, nor do I believe that monogamy is moral, nor that only monogamy is moral.

What I said is that if you *agree* to monogamy, then to break that agreement without your partner's consent is not morally justifiable. It is equally morally unjustifiable to cheat at jacks, if you agree to play.

If you haven't agreed to monogamy, then you can sleep with whom you want, and my values system doesn't presume to judge that.

I think there is something inherently troubling about rules that bind people to people...period. And yet many humans seek such rules for themselves. But then they get upset when those rules become inconvenient. I say either don't put yourself in that position or suck it up...if you break an agreement, don't rationalize away the fact that you broke an agreement.

Bottom line...you don't like my sense of morals or my definition of cheating? Don't marry me...please!

[tenni]

"Bottom line...you don't like my sense of morals or my definition of cheating? Don't marry me...please!"

sighs...:(

Strikes Annika off the list...puts ring back in pocket.:bigrin::bigrin::tong:

Oh..you meant Gear

[krrptyc]

Assume your committed partner\spouse to whom you have promised fidelity and to whom you have been loyal (this is not a bi\open relationship issue) is stricken with an affliction that renders them incapable of sex. Your partner is either incapable (because of brain injury or disease) of understanding your request for other sexual partners or unwilling, religious convictions etc. to grant permission.

Furthermore you truly deeply love your partner and do not wish to cause them pain and leaving him\her is not an acceptable option because they are dependent on you for survival, physical\mental.



You have just described my life. My wife and I have not had sex in 6 or 7 years. After menopause and anti-depressants she has zero libido. Absolutely no interest what so ever in sex. She has admitted that she is not affectionate because she doesn't want me to become aroused and want sex. She knows I am bi and a couple of years ago I told her I wanted a "buddy." She said absolutely not, but she would think about it and would consider any suggestions I had. Time went on, we had counseling, we held hands, went on weekend getaways, and did many other relationship building activities. Thing got better between us. She tried hormones for about a month said they weren't working for anything but growing a mustache and stopped.

We attempted sex twice. Both times she was so obviously thinking "just get it over with" that I lost interest. I'd rather jerk off, at least everyone involves enjoys it and I do it often to Bi, transsexual, and straight porn.

Both of us have been through more than one divorce and do not want go through that wringer again. We get along well other wise and I do love her. We are roommates who share finances; kiss each other hello, goodbye, and goodnight; and spend time together with family.

My cheating consists of going to an adult arcade and trading blowjobs with some like minded individual. I have not cheated on her for about a year but I will again. Afterword, I will feel a little guilty but satisfied for a couple of months then do it again. I thought I could live this way but I have recently become worried.

While most of my fantasies are about sucking a cock, I recently started having the desire to make love to a woman. I mean passionate, emotional and physical bonding; stare into each others eyes; newlywed Making Love. My wife is the focus of my desire but I know what will happen and fear the heartbreak I will feel when the object of my passion shows no interest.

I joined Facebook not too long ago and have since been contacted by five, count them, FIVE! Old GFs. None of them salacious but my fantasies have begun to stray. If my wife found out about my physical BJ cheating, I say what do you expect and I think she would get over it. If I emotionally cheated on her, she would be devastated and I would never forgive myself for hurting her.

[elian]

You have just described my life. My wife and I have not had sex in 6 or 7 years. After menopause and anti-depressants she has zero libido. Absolutely no interest what so ever in sex. She has admitted that she is not affectionate because she doesn't want me to become aroused and want sex. She knows I am bi and a couple of years ago I told her I wanted a "buddy." She said absolutely not, but she would think about it and would consider any suggestions I had. Time went on, we had counseling, we held hands, went on weekend getaways, and did many other relationship building activities. Thing got better between us. She tried hormones for about a month said they weren't working for anything but growing a mustache and stopped.

We attempted sex twice. Both times she was so obviously thinking "just get it over with" that I lost interest. I'd rather jerk off, at least everyone involves enjoys it and I do it often to Bi, transsexual, and straight porn.

Both of us have been through more than one divorce and do not want go through that wringer again. We get along well other wise and I do love her. We are roommates who share finances; kiss each other hello, goodbye, and goodnight; and spend time together with family.

My cheating consists of going to an adult arcade and trading blowjobs with some like minded individual. I have not cheated on her for about a year but I will again. Afterword, I will feel a little guilty but satisfied for a couple of months then do it again. I thought I could live this way but I have recently become worried.

While most of my fantasies are about sucking a cock, I recently started having the desire to make love to a woman. I mean passionate, emotional and physical bonding; stare into each others eyes; newlywed Making Love. My wife is the focus of my desire but I know what will happen and fear the heartbreak I will feel when the object of my passion shows no interest.

I joined Facebook not too long ago and have since been contacted by five, count them, FIVE! Old GFs. None of them salacious but my fantasies have begun to stray. If my wife found out about my physical BJ cheating, I say what do you expect and I think she would get over it. If I emotionally cheated on her, she would be devastated and I would never forgive myself for hurting her.

Stupid question, but I'm genuinely just curious..are you physically intimate WITHOUT sex? Do you hold each other, kiss each other, massage each other? Or is she afraid that doing those things would be too erotic and stimulate your desire to want to have sex? I might be able to live without actual intercourse for a long time, but I don't think I could be without physical intimacy and touch indefinitely..

If I was in your situation all I could do was remind her of "passionate, emotional and physical bonding; stare into each others eyes " and tell her it breaks your heart not to be able to experience those things with her..but then again, that is why I asked the question above..

Both of you are married together, I can't see why either of you should be "afraid" to experience those things with each other, be intimate - and don't think of it as a disappointment if it doesn't end in orgasm. if you get very horny afterward and she doesn't want sex masturbate in front of her if she doesn't mind or go off by yourself but at least then you might still be able to enjoy some intimacy together and you might get some emotional and physical relief that way.

Maybe it sounds crazy but I can't imagine that you both stopped having emotional needs just because she doesn't want sex. Of course it might just make you even more frustrated but it is something that I would maybe try anyway if I was in the same situation.

[void()]

My wife also has diminished libido. In her case it is due to birth control used to regulate severely bad 'vacation' weeks. Our situation though is a little different, I also have low libido due to a life long medical affliction.

Still frustrating that when I am aroused, she's no help. It hurts more so because me being aroused does not happen too often and normally requires some effort to get there. Me reaching climax is difficult as well. I pretty much don't get off.

Despite such frustration I do not cheat on my wife nor lover. Jacking off for me is not really satisfying, but at least it's something. Then again, I'm nuts and probably incapable of understanding all of this. Maybe this is why I'm nuts. Who knows?

[Gearbox]

Bottom line...you don't like my sense of morals or my definition of cheating? Don't marry me...please!
I like you, so wouldn't subject you to that level of torture.:bigrin:

When I say "You start off....." I mean everybody, not just you. I've done it a few times myself, and it's probably because....well that's the way things go. We want a partner and all that romantic stuff etc and to promise exclusiveness is supposed to be a show of love & commitment body&soul.
But when you think of it, really think of it, what a vile pact that is.:eek:

You both/all become property in a physical/sexual&emotional way. You as a full grown adult, need permission to be 'You', the 'You' that is apparently loved for being 'You'. It is open to abuse and use by any that see it as a means to safeguard negative emotions such as jealousy, insecurity and of course possessiveness.
Life/relationships are nothing like a game of craps. Nobody plays that game for 10 years 24/7. Circumstances change, people change, even if the love and rules don't.

Cheating is STILL cheating never the less. But the first act of cheating starts when you agree to sign yourself over to another and them to you. Both/all cheat each other and selves out of freedom, in the name of 'love'. They are ALL cheaters!
It's bizarre!:tongue:

[swmnkdinthervr]

Early on in our relationship my wife and I discussed both the eventuality that one of us may no longer be able to have sex for one reason or another and/or one of us may lose the ability to make those kind of decisions.

These are things that should be discussed in ANY potentially long term interpersonal relationship. There is no need for either of us to cheat EVER because we have discussed these eventualities. We continue to discuss the evolution of our relationship and our views as they change.

[welickit]

If it was cheating before they lost interest or got sick, it is still cheating after the fact.

[Herculoid Poirot]

Another variable to consider is time. We can all put up with just about anything, but for how long? If it meant that I could stay true to my ailing partner, i think it is safe to say that there would be a difference in situation between someone with a lifelong ailment and someone whose life would be ending in a matter of months/years.