The American & the European Bisexual

[The Young Pretender]

I can't really comment on the women as I haven't met enough, but I have noticed some differences between the two with regards to men.

First of all, I'm a college student doing my whole degree (Ie all 4 years) in Europe, but I'm from New York. I say this because while I grew up inculcated with American norms, I "grew up" sexually in Europe...with European norms and influences. My population samples are drawn from others around me and various forums.

In Europe, bi men more readily identify with the wider LGBT movement and are far more open than their American counterparts. What's also interesting is their approach to sex. A European bisexual man will readily enter a relationship (any kind, casual, FWB, LTR etc) with another man, just as he will with a woman.

The Americans are another beast entirely. They are in the closet. In general, they form relationships almost exclusively with women, while...sneaking kisses away from the missus when no one is looking. Aside from what little I have seen in my college with the other Americans, craigslist and certain forums (shy-biguys.com) is LITTERED with men married or in a LTR with a woman basically trying to get off with a man every once in awhile. There's also a great deal of proclaiming that they're emotionally & sexually attracted to women, while men are a purely sexual dalliance.

To have such a disparity and be mono-romantic and bisexual is not unheard of (as this forum gives evidence to). What is surprising is the disparity. My guess is that the heteronormative trend in American society is still overwhelming in its power.

Thoughts?

[tenni]

"There's also a great deal of proclaiming that they're emotionally & sexually attracted to women, while men are a purely sexual dalliance."

Well written thoughts :)

I find the above quote also fairly true in my country but I have no idea about European. I'm not from the US and my country, Canada, use to be a little more progressive sexually.(things are a chang'n) I don't think that bisexuals are any more open publicly about their sexuality except I think that people in their late teens to thirty are more open than previous generations. I think that young Canadian bisexual men want to be public and family open about their sexuality. My sample is fairly small though. The younger bisexual men are not necessarily interested in establishing emotional relationships though. Some do and some don't.

I don't see it as a lesser position though for some bisexual men who have no emotional desires with other men even though I am capable of having emotional relationships with men. It is just part of the umbrella of bisexuality. I also don't think that it is essential to identify with the broader GLT. Some here do while others do not. It would appear that you do?

[The Bisexual Virgin]

Well if you really think about it. Homosexuality, and male Bisexuality was found in that area in the first place. Back in the roman or greek days men actually prefer to treat their men better than their wives. If I was a woman back in those days and had to deal with a bisexual man and his bullshit, I would run for the hills screaming, or better yet, I would have to commit suicide.

But the reason why it's so frown upon here is because Americans love to judge and reject people for who they are. And the reason why there are so many down low men is because, your average American woman will not put up with a bisexual man. I can honestly say that a bisexual man is more likely to get sex and a relationship with another man, than he will with a woman. If you don't believe me, go to any search engine and type in 'would a woman date a bisexual male?' and you will get your answer of what they have to say.

[dafydd]

Went on a bit on this one sorry, waffling from the perspective of a non-european e.g. a Brit.....

I think its always problematic to make large generalisations around nationality... And yet still our cultural upbringing, our particular country's laws and acceptance of different sexualities will shape our own views of sexuality as adults and our behaviour around sexuality.
Does the spectre of the holocaust liberate certain countries in Europe in their thinking? An unconscious/conscious desire of 'never again' never to segregate, to engender acceptance (Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavia, I think have always led the way here) and yes Hitler's pop up all the time.
(AeonPax it's Godwin's Law again!) ;)

And yet Poland, whose populous was arguably the most betrayed, on all sides during the war, who remained outcasts as even the allies turned their backs on them as Europe was rebuilt - now is a very challenging place for lesbian/gays/bisexuals, with some of the worst bi/homophobic laws in Europe (which is one reason that prevents bars them from joining the EU)
Also lets not forget Europe is a mix of many cultures, there is no one European culture. You'd think suffering and discrimination had imprinted itself in the cultural psyche...but as is often the case victims all too easily become perpertrators of the same crimes.

America, let's not forget was the official birthplace of the 'gay civil rights movement' - though similar sexual rebellions were happening all over Britain and Europe at the time. But America began to clamp down its counter-culture and endured the conservative 80's/90's of tenures by......urgh those..er.. presidents we won't name...and as a result has taken so much longer to catch up with the fast progression in Europe for equal rights.

I also blame the popularity and strong fervour of US religious groups in and their success (largely due to huge fiscal power) which the GLBT community struggle to match. America has religious shows on TV so bigoted in content open to the masses, I watched them mouth open. That just wouldn't get on air in Britain...Europe probably not either.

America is largely to blame again in Hollywood's cultural imprinting of an anti-women, anti-GLBT culture, that glorifies straight sex, and straight butch heroes who get the girls, fighting against dandy asexual or camp villians who get their comeuppancce. This all contributed to a widely spread *world* idea of what is 'good' (straight/masc) as opposed to what is 'bad' (transgression/fem) - which of course also effects Europe, though its hub, and heart was LA (strangely now a gay mecca - i guess that's show business)

But then we have San Francisco. The Republic of San Francisco. "San Francisco....open your Golden Gate, don't let a stranger wait...outside your door.!!"

America in my mind will always be truly queer just by its very own spawning of SF. Any country that can give birth to a city like that, even it was a laboured birth where gay/lesbian/bi sons and daughters were pushed out of the suffocation of the 1950s suburbs and out in search of sanctuary,...any country in which a place like SF can happen, even if it was out of resistance to the political climate, can not so easily be dismissed as repressed and homophobic. Of course it was America who cultivated/and allowed to ascend the first elected gay official. Harvey Milk.

Now, many people worldwide are irrevocably drawn to the city by the bay where *anything* goes, (even under anti-GLBT federal laws)

I have travelled Europe and I have lived in SF, and I have never seen anything like SF anyway else in Europe. The queerness of that town is joyous to behold. You show me one liberal bisexual 'European male' and I've got a can-can chorus of straight/bi/gay SF guys who'll blow the lid off what you think liberal mindedness really looks like.

And Britain. Yeah Britain dragged it's feet regarding sexuality, and then it all kind of exploded from about 1999 onwards. and within under a decade almost, almost... almost equality in law. (better late than never). God bless Labour.
Blair, you might not like his war record, but he did more for lesbians, gays and bisexuals, their families and their future, in his time as PM, than any other politician in any other country I can think of (willing to stand corrected here)

There are closet cases in any country. And every country has discrimination. But time also is a major factor. Dont forget they were doing it all before in the 60's. The summer of love man. The poles and the holes. And pole to pole of holes in holes. And where did that start...American.

Perhaps those moments of true freedom in sexuality only came about because of the pendulum swing of America's polarised cultures. The highs man, the lows....bit like hangovers and drinking really. Though we keep on doing that erry dance don't we....(well some of us do). Maybe you need a bit of repression in your culture to enable the break out rebellion.

Haight-Ashbury. Love-San Francisco.

D

[The Bisexual Virgin]

There are plenty of Gay movies where the men ended up with men. Broke back Mountain is one of them, I think. although they had wives they should have ended up with each other, because they were totally gay.

[dafydd]

There are plenty of Gay movies where the men ended up with men. Broke back Mountain is one of them, I think. although they had wives they should have ended up with each other, because they were totally gay.

yeah and it was banned in some cinemas in the US

[The Bisexual Virgin]

yeah and it was banned in some cinemas in the US

You could always watch the show Torchwood: Miracle Day they have a lead gay character.

[marie0021]

Went on a bit on this one sorry, waffling from the perspective of a non-european e.g. a Brit.....

I think its always problematic to make large generalisations around nationality... And yet still our cultural upbringing, our particular country's laws and acceptance of different sexualities will shape our own views of sexuality as adults and our behaviour around sexuality.
Does the spectre of the holocaust liberate certain countries in Europe in their thinking? An unconscious/conscious desire of 'never again' never to segregate, to engender acceptance (Germany, Switzerland, Scandanavia, I think have always led the way here) and yes Hitler's pop up all the time.
(AeonPax it's Godwin's Law again!) ;)

And yet Poland, whose populous was arguably the most betrayed, on all sides during the war, who remained outcasts as even the allies turned their backs on them as Europe was rebuilt - now is a very challenging place for lesbian/gays/bisexuals, with some of the worst bi/homophobic laws in Europe (which is one reason that prevents bars them from joining the EU)
Also lets not forget Europe is a mix of many cultures, there is no one European culture. You'd think suffering and discrimination had imprinted itself in the cultural psyche...but as is often the case victims all too easily become perpertrators of the same crimes.

America, let's not forget was the official birthplace of the 'gay civil rights movement' - though similar sexual rebellions were happening all over Britain and Europe at the time. But America began to clamp down its counter-culture and endured the conservative 80's/90's of tenures by......urgh those..er.. presidents we won't name...and as a result has taken so much longer to catch up with the fast progression in Europe for equal rights.

I also blame the popularity and strong fervour of US religious groups in and their success (largely due to huge fiscal power) which the GLBT community struggle to match. America has religious shows on TV so bigoted in content open to the masses, I watched them mouth open. That just wouldn't get on air in Britain...Europe probably not either.

America is largely to blame again in Hollywood's cultural imprinting of an anti-women, anti-GLBT culture, that glorifies straight sex, and straight butch heroes who get the girls, fighting against dandy asexual or camp villians who get their comeuppancce. This all contributed to a widely spread *world* idea of what is 'good' (straight/masc) as opposed to what is 'bad' (transgression/fem) - which of course also effects Europe, though its hub, and heart was LA (strangely now a gay mecca - i guess that's show business)

But then we have San Francisco. The Republic of San Francisco. "San Francisco....open your Golden Gate, don't let a stranger wait...outside your door.!!"

America in my mind will always be truly queer just by its very own spawning of SF. Any country that can give birth to a city like that, even it was a laboured birth where gay/lesbian/bi sons and daughters were pushed out of the suffocation of the 1950s suburbs and out in search of sanctuary,...any country in which a place like SF can happen, even if it was out of resistance to the political climate, can not so easily be dismissed as repressed and homophobic. Of course it was America who cultivated/and allowed to ascend the first elected gay official. Harvey Milk.

Now, many people worldwide are irrevocably drawn to the city by the bay where *anything* goes, (even under anti-GLBT federal laws)

I have travelled Europe and I have lived in SF, and I have never seen anything like SF anyway else in Europe. The queerness of that town is joyous to behold. You show me one liberal bisexual 'European male' and I've got a can-can chorus of straight/bi/gay SF guys who'll blow the lid off what you think liberal mindedness really looks like.

And Britain. Yeah Britain dragged it's feet regarding sexuality, and then it all kind of exploded from about 1999 onwards. and within under a decade almost, almost... almost equality in law. (better late than never). God bless Labour.
Blair, you might not like his war record, but he did more for lesbians, gays and bisexuals, their families and their future, in his time as PM, than any other politician in any other country I can think of (willing to stand corrected here)

There are closet cases in any country. And every country has discrimination. But time also is a major factor. Dont forget they were doing it all before in the 60's. The summer of love man. The poles and the holes. And pole to pole of holes in holes. And where did that start...American.

Perhaps those moments of true freedom in sexuality only came about because of the pendulum swing of America's polarised cultures. The highs man, the lows....bit like hangovers and drinking really. Though we keep on doing that erry dance don't we....(well some of us do). Maybe you need a bit of repression in your culture to enable the break out rebellion.

Haight-Ashbury. Love-San Francisco.

D

Im from Spain. I completely agree with you!

[softfruit]

While there's probably some truth in the analysis of the original post, I can't help wonder if it is skewed a little by the samples involved?

I see plenty of the behaviours ascribed to the USA here in the UK too, and being in Europe as a student might mean you are exposed more to the liberal, progressive, call-it-what-you-want end of society - and universities tend to be in urban areas which generally are also socially ahead of the rest of a country.


[moving down the thread, let's not plump up Blair's record on LGBT too far: most of those reforms of the last 15 years in the UK came either from the liberals (eg the civil partnerships law which was drafted by lord lester or the earlier abolition of s28 in Scotland) or from Europe (who forced on the UK things like equalising the age of consent or lifting the military ban) -- while the government of the time passed the a statutory instrument stripping a load of employment rights from transgender people and threw £oodles at defending the military ban in the european courts]

[bihim4her]

Well if you really think about it. Homosexuality, and male Bisexuality was found in that area in the first place. Back in the roman or greek days men actually prefer to treat their men better than their wives. If I was a woman back in those days and had to deal with a bisexual man and his bullshit, I would run for the hills screaming, or better yet, I would have to commit suicide.

But the reason why it's so frown upon here is because Americans love to judge and reject people for who they are. And the reason why there are so many down low men is because, your average American woman will not put up with a bisexual man. I can honestly say that a bisexual man is more likely to get sex and a relationship with another man, than he will with a woman. If you don't believe me, go to any search engine and type in 'would a woman date a bisexual male?' and you will get your answer of what they have to say.

can you tell why she's still a virgin?

obviously she's very misinformed about how a lot of women
enjoy their bi man and love to share his bi side

oh well.. can't win em all

maybe she's attracted to the trash in the military

[darkeyes]

While there's probably some truth in the analysis of the original post, I can't help wonder if it is skewed a little by the samples involved?

I see plenty of the behaviours ascribed to the USA here in the UK too, and being in Europe as a student might mean you are exposed more to the liberal, progressive, call-it-what-you-want end of society - and universities tend to be in urban areas which generally are also socially ahead of the rest of a country.


[moving down the thread, let's not plump up Blair's record on LGBT too far: most of those reforms of the last 15 years in the UK came either from the liberals (eg the civil partnerships law which was drafted by lord lester or the earlier abolition of s28 in Scotland) or from Europe (who forced on the UK things like equalising the age of consent or lifting the military ban) -- while the government of the time passed the a statutory instrument stripping a load of employment rights from transgender people and threw £oodles at defending the military ban in the european courts]

Quite....:).. and vis a vis Section 28 there was a fair bit of angst while they dragged there feet in repealing it.. just why did the Scottish parliament where Labour had no majority find it so easy to repeal (section 2A as it was known north of the border) within a year of taking office after the first Scottish parliamentary election, while it took Blair's Labour government with huge majorities of well over a hundred a second term and 6 years to do so elsewhere? That the House of Lords defeated repeal in 2000 (something the Scots did not have to worry about), is only part of the answer, but why did it take them 3 years even to make the first effort?

..but having said that, Blair's government was reasonably progressive on lgbt issues, the rearguard against homosexuality in the military notwithstanding, certainly compared to what went before, but not quite as much as some would have it..

[The Bisexual Virgin]

can you tell why she's still a virgin?

obviously she's very misinformed about how a lot of women
enjoy their bi man and love to share his bi side

oh well.. can't win em all

maybe she's attracted to the trash in the military

Wow, you are so fucking rude. He asked for an opinion and I gave it to him. And why would you disrespect the men in the military like that? You are awful.

[The Young Pretender]

I love this forum. In one thread, there's a raunchy and tasteless discussion (just how I like it) about cock, tits, and ass, then in another, a serious and intelligent discussion.

I wanted to give this thread some more justice, but I've been delaying it and only got around to writing the OP while I was coming down from a pleasant tipsiness.

Tenni: I don't see bisexual yet mono-romantic (with women) men as a less worthy or legitimate incarnation of bisexuality. What I do find odd, again, is the extraordinary lack of of openness towards both romantic and sexual attraction towards other gay/bi men on my side of the pond. But, as I needn't say, an American's masculinity takes a severe enough blow if you fuck guys, and it's effectively destroyed if you love them. What I say is that this norm is so pervasive, it must have some effect.

Bi virgin: I did run across a thread on the forum city-data.com. It's fascinating because due to its sheer size, it does not draw a single over-arching crowd or ideology. It's literally "America" and a fair number of foreign English-speakers (mostly from the UK). A thread was created in the "Relationship" subforum to the effect of "Would you date a bisexual [man]?" The answer was, by and large, no.

Dafydd: First, you're right. I was lazy using the term "Europe." In reality, what I was referring to was north-western Europe (excepting Ireland; my cousins tell me that LGBT life is rather hard there), so the UK, Iceland, Scandinavia, Germany, Benelux, France, Switzerland, and Austria.

As for San Francisco, I think it raised a certain important point. With the exception of a particularly libertine and out there bi Dane I know, I do not doubt that the American LGBT segment could out-queer most LGBT Europeans. But is this a good thing? One thing I've noticed is that gay life in America happens behind closed doors, in safe venues in a select, accepting crowd. When all the "stars are in alignment," people cut loose for some extra-pink fun. However, in mainstream society, be it at work, Christmas with the family, a friend's barbecue, etc....behavior ranges from boring/conformist to outright back in the closet. I'll tell you a tale of two concerts, specifically the NYC Gay Men's Chorus Christmas show. I had a family member performing. The afternoon show was the "family" show, where lots of grey-haired couples were paying their token dues to their gay son performing. Judging by the crowd, there were also a fair number of nieces, nephews, and siblings. Still though, very family. The show was rather tame. The night show was far more lively. The audience was far more LGBT + Allies. The jokes got raunchy, Santa basically turned into a stripper with the help of his half-bavarian, half-hipster twink elves, and the guest singer was giving the audience a cracking good time with some naughty anecdotes in-between numbers. This San Francisco effect is an admittedly great side-effect, albeit one brought forth by an insidious disease. North-western Europe does not have these sanctuaries, as it does not need them.

Bi Virgin: How much gay cinema goes mainstream? Virtually none. Of course, I see Brokeback Mountain as bi, but that's for another day.

Softfruit: This has dawned on me, but I have also considered that these students are also products of their culture. Oddly enough, the domestic politics of a given country are not my chief concern. I was approaching this from the angle of the overall culture, not the country's administration in a given time period.

[tenni]

Hi Young Pretender
As you have described the US scenario it does show that Canada is vastly different from the US in some respects. Canada has legal and equal marriage for same sex couples. It has openly gay mayors, police, MP's of Parliament who place their male spouse on government Christmas cards since sometime around 2003.(minor mention initially and now none). Within my circles(all be it art so tends more liberal) there are same sex couples who openly attend events together but little signs of PDA(same with cross gender couples though). Therefore the difference between Canada and US is markedly different. Although the religious fundamentalists have voice in Canada, generally Canada has always had a more edgy sexual tone to its sense of humour where cross dressing (Kids in the Hall being one older version) was an accepted form of humour similar to British use of cross dressing. (although the US also had humour with comedic cross dressing too the bawdiness is more open in Canadian & British humour) Sex on television has been more open than the US. Same sex political scandals are basically non existent in Canada while in the US may end a politician's political life.

[The Young Pretender]

Oh, I should mention, "American" was never meant to stand for "North America" but rather the US of A. Culturally, leaving from New York, the EU begins when one crosses the bridge on the other side of the Niagara river, not when your flight touches down at Heathrow. <---In my opinion.

Funny that you mentioned cross dressing. Here, at the student parties in Britain, it's hardly rare to see cross-dressing parties where (very) straight guys will dress up in all manner of women's clothes. Americans (myself included) wouldn't dream of doing that. Costumes parties? Yes. Hugo Weaving in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert? No.