Facebook and Abortion

[reddc513]

So I posted a picture yesterday. It was an aborted baby. Now yes maybe this was to far and the picture has been lost so no i wont repost since facebook removed it. But the point was that there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves. Personally I am against it unless in extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, or where the child/mother wont survive. So in light of this I have had many Straight peoples opinions and now i am looking for My gay/Lesbian/bi/trans opinions. What do You think? :flag1::rainbow::grouphug::soapbox:

[Jobelorocks]

I am a pro-lifer all the way, but I think that we can't replace arguments with graphic images. Although graphic images can be a helpful learning tool, like using images when teaching about the Holocaust for instance, we can't just show these pictures without people's consent or proper warning.

[void()]

Young River: People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. http://goo.gl/PpSkd


Concur with you on extenuating circumstance/s. There are alternatives to abortion such as adoption. I would suggest that. I would also drive a lady to a proper and safe clinic if it were her choice, though. See above quote. Guess I'm a moderate, not pro life or pro choice.

[keefer728]

So I posted a picture yesterday. It was an aborted baby. Now yes maybe this was to far and the picture has been lost so no i wont repost since facebook removed it. But the point was that there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves. Personally I am against it unless in extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, or where the child/mother wont survive. So in light of this I have had many Straight peoples opinions and now i am looking for My gay/Lesbian/bi/trans opinions. What do You think? :flag1::rainbow::grouphug::soapbox:

I was at a March For LIfe protest in D.C. back around '91. I met up with thousands of homosexual (yes, they identified themselves as homosexuals) right to lifers while there. I got to keeping in touch with a lawyer that I met from the group and what you said there, Redd, I will paraphrase what he said to me, as I asked the same question to him. How ignorant are you? I was shocked into reality and adjusted my vision accordingly to his straight forward question/accusation. Don't get me wrong, Redd, I'm not calling you ignorant, I just found it very fitting when I seen your thread here. Personally, I applaud you with the posting of the picture on Facebook and no, I don't think you need to ask permission before you post it. Facebook can monitor itself, but you put something up that you felt needed to be seen. Since I got myself "schooled" via that letter from the lawyer, I have found that the pro choice/pro life opinions don't lie within someones sexual identity but more their own prejudices. It would be easy for me to say that liberals are the biggest supporters of 'death in the womb', but I also know a fair share of conservatives and indies that also support it, and the reasons vary from one being totally insipid to some being racist to pure apathy. By the way; Facebook took down my posting of the original video of the Marines not pissing on the dead Taliban scumbags. I reposted it and let it be known that I have the original and will repost it again and again if they chose to try and stifle free speech.

[tenni]

I'm pro choice. I know that your laws may be different than my country's. Actually, Canada has no law about abortion at all. It is a non political decision here and seen as a medical decision between the woman and her doctor. The medical association creates the boundaries for the procedure.

Sorry but as far as aborted fetus photos, I consider that sensationalist manipulation on your part. Facebook doesn't allow photos of dead people, nudity,genetals, body organs and severed body parts and so why would you think that they would allow such a photo? I don't think that you are an/the artist of that picture and so there is no artistic merit that you may use as a defense of presenting such an image of human tissue. I would support an artwork based on presenting an artistic interpretation on either side of abortion.

You will not change too many people's minds on the matter and are acting in a sensationalist manner. Most people have seen such images and take their position regardless of those images. It an old outdated approach to presenting your belief. (at least where I live) Where I live, such people as yourself have lined up along a busy road with such images and statements annually. The only people that are being upset are parents and young children in cars as they drive by unexpectedly. If body parts, dead bodies with the top of the head blown off or a couple shown making love were shown, that would be declared as obscene by most people supporting your position. Somehow, they think that young children should be exposed to such images that you wish to present. Young children stand with these adults and even hold the images but they have been prepared to do so while other young children are not.

[darkeyes]

Maybe.. just maybe, if our societies provided proper sex education for our children and parents did their duty of making sure their children were properly educated about sex and contraception instead of neglecting this important aspect of their education and upbringing, and maybe if a certain religious institution, both anti abortion and anti contraception stopped playing silly buggers, and our societies stopped acting as if sex was filthy and making our kids sneak around furtively ignorant of the facts, maybe then there would be much less need of abortion..

I do not like abortion and I may have modified my stance a bit in the last few years, but it is desperately needed in a higgledy piggledy world full of hypocrisy where rape, incest and many mothers lives are endangered by a child being brought to term are rife... and another interesting thing, it is argued by some, that it is an unfortunate fact that even an otherwise healthy mother's life is in greater danger by carrying a child to term than it is should she decide to abort..

[keefer728]

Maybe.. just maybe, if our societies provided proper sex education for our children and parents did their duty of making sure their children were properly educated about sex and contraception instead of neglecting this important aspect of their education and upbringing, and maybe if a certain religious institution, both anti abortion and anti contraception stopped playing silly buggers, and our societies stopped acting as if sex was filthy and making our kids sneak around furtively ignorant of the facts, maybe then there would be much less need of abortion..

I do not like abortion and I may have modified my stance a bit in the last few years, but it is desperately needed in a higgledy piggledy world full of hypocrisy where rape, incest and many mothers lives are endangered by a child being brought to term are rife... and another interesting thing, it is argued by some, that it is an unfortunate fact that even an otherwise healthy mother's life is in greater danger by carrying a child to term than it is should she decide to abort..

Fran; do bubbles float out of your bum when you type such run of the mill bilge? That is so like, 1995 rhetoric that it is beyond tired.

[Light_and_Dark]

Actually keefer for once i kind of agree in parts with fran if children were getting a proper education and their parents were being responsible parents and stopped lazing about the need for abortions would go down. On top of that if abortion became a much harder to accomplish function(not taking it away for those that need it merely a harder thing to accomplish similar to divorce in america) then the rate of abortion would go down...

Most people use it as insurance "oh fuck i forgot my pill and all contraceptives but screw it i am going to bend over on the dance floor and take it" then when they get pregnant it is oh well i will just get it aborted. I am sorry I do not believe it should be so easy.

[darkeyes]

Fran; do bubbles float out of your bum when you type such run of the mill bilge? That is so like, 1995 rhetoric that it is beyond tired.

What was true in 1995 dummie is equally true today.. the trouble is Keefer.. you and the old reactionaries of yesteryear are still in 1895.. and so the problem persists and if it were up to you and people like you it would be a bloody sight worse.. run of the mill bilge it may be.. but nonetheless true for all that...

[Long Duck Dong]

blame the parents, blame society, blame religion, place no responsibility on the person themselves....... same old story that is constantly used in so many situations.......but as long as people have a choice, they will continue to make choices and deal with the consequences it creates........

pushing somebody to not having a abortion because somebody does not agree with abortion as a form of birth control, is nothing short of manipulation and blackmail..... and that is the cause with graphic images.......

it is simply a way of trying to make people feel guilty and upset about something that is happening, when they can already have enuf to deal with, like the fact that they are pregnant and scared of how people are going to react to that fact.... and the idea of having a baby then giving it away can be more traumatic than the idea of a abortion, as adoption for some can be a life long burden..... and something that becomes a wound that never heals.....

I am pro choice as its a persons body, life and future, in the same way that its the body, life and future of a foetus that is at stake, but I would perfer a person makes that choice without unfair and undue pressure......

reddc, was the posting of the pic really for anybodies benefit, or you pushing your own agenda onto other people, who will have to deal with something you will not... a choice about their own bodies and pregnancies ?

[Light_and_Dark]

Well LDD even so at the very least the father should have a say in the matter...It should not be so easy since the guilt is just as damaging as giving the child away difference is you can always reunite with an adopted child...the guilt and burden of the abortion do NOT go away or have some way to cope.

[Long Duck Dong]

I would agree with that, light and dark, but at the end of the day, its the female that has to carry the child.......and I have read about court cases in the us, when the father wanted the female to carry his child against the mothers wishes, and the court sided with the mother.......

is it right or wrong, well that is up to each person to decide..... in the same way of is it right or wrong for a person to have the power of consent over a persons life ( youth / adult ) that has been so brain damaged that they can not live without the support of machines, and force that person to continue to live because the consenting person can not let go..... and I am referring to people that used to be fully functional adults and rendered severely damaged by way of accident or medical issue

when we start playing god in peoples lives, we go too far......

as for reunion... it doesn't always work..... thats a happy, happy, joy, joy type thinking.... as there is often cases of parents or children that do not want to or can not reunion, and it can leave unanswered questions and a longing to know the truth about why you were adopted........

I know parents that gave their children away ( consensual or not ) and now they hurt in ways that I can only imagine.......and for many of them, there is no way to ease the suffering they feel inside.......

[darkeyes]

When the day comes, and men get pregnant and carry their children to term, and their health and lives are put at risk and go through the body changes, trials and tribulations of pregancy, then a father may have a say in whether a child is or is not carried to term... for now, they may express a preference, but they should never have the right to exercise a veto nor should they be allowed to place undue pressure on the person who actually does give birth..

[keefer728]

When the day comes, and men get pregnant and carry their children to term, and their health and lives are put at risk and go through the body changes, trials and tribulations of pregancy, then a father may have a say in whether a child is or is not carried to term... for now, they may express a preference, but they should never have the right to exercise a veto nor should they be allowed to place undue pressure on the person who actually does..

That is the most sexist and utterly stupid remark I have ever heard a person make. But, thank you for revealing the true nature of yourself.

[darkeyes]

That is the most sexist and utterly stupid remark I have ever heard a person make. But, thank you for revealing the true nature of yourself.

Compared to a few of ur remarks it is the height of decency and moderation.. just tell me this?? Just who is it that gets pregnant and carries the child??? Just who is it who potentially dies in childbirth or has their health ruined? Not u lot anyway... hardly sexist.. merely an acceptance of which gender it is that has the children and takes the physical risks...

Should a woman have a say Keefer in whether or not her husband or partner has a vasectomy? A say yes.. a veto?? Dont be daft....

[elian]

I know women who have made the choice to have an abortion and it wasn't some nonchalant thing that they all of the sudden just decided, "Oh, well I think I'll go and have an abortion now!" The ladies who would even tell me about it at all said that to this day they remember and they still think about it.

First and foremost, I would do my best to make sure there wasn't a REASON for an unwanted accidental pregnancy. If it still happened and I could support my partner in carrying the child to term (like for adoption) I would.

Loss of life is always regrettable, I would do everything I could to try and find another way but as a man I'm not going to tell a woman what options she has for controlling her own body.

I have actually considered getting a vasectomy but I don't know, it is possible that I might still want to get married some day..although there are PLENTY of adoptable children already here who need a good home..

[DuckiesDarling]

You know I can't help but wonder when this became a site for nothing but political agendas that do not one whit affect LGBT rights and responsibilities. You can say it's a human issue til the cows come home but at the end of the day threads like this make me wonder why people continue to post threads guaranteed to cause nothing but contention.


I have posted my opinion often enough on this subject and do not care to address it again. :2cents:

[Cdasue]

Did anyone else see that this person just joined in January of this year?

Did anyone else think that all they are doing is flaming this site?

Come on people.

[darkeyes]

You know I can't help but wonder when this became a site for nothing but political agendas that do not one whit affect LGBT rights and responsibilities. You can say it's a human issue til the cows come home but at the end of the day threads like this make me wonder why people continue to post threads guaranteed to cause nothing but contention.


I have posted my opinion often enough on this subject and do not care to address it again. :2cents:

Nothing but Darlin darlin'? One political (and very human) issue on the first page of forums is nothing but? Are we nowt but dimwits who can talk bugger all but sex, tits, cocks, pussies and positions? And abortion isnt an issue that affects thousands of bisexual women and quite a few gay...?

[keefer728]

Did anyone else see that this person just joined in January of this year?

Did anyone else think that all they are doing is flaming this site?

Come on people.

I've had suspicions on many threads started here and with the join date, Suzie. But...as far as I know, Redd is a real person and quite nice to chat with. So, in my thinking, she's no flamer. lol. I have my doubts on others that appear to be flaming. Oye!

[LastGent]

This thread reminds me of an article in the Chicago Tribune I read one or two weeks ago; a commentator was discussing another panic attack over the use of all forms of female contraception and egg-boosters. A lot of you may have heard about the remarks of Mr. Santorum, who wants to make contraception illegal to prevent the practice "things", as he put it, but in general, publicly funded centers that are specifically for female reproductive system health are being cut. Treatments for cervical cancer, infertility treatments, are getting less and less funding, while places for prostate cancer and viagra dispensers are getting more money. I still don't understand it. In a town next to me a woman was barred by a group of protesters when she tried to go to her next session of chemotherapy for ovarian cancer because they believe it unnatural. In a different town a pharmacy decided to no longer sell contraceptive pills, but continue to sell viagra. I don't understand this trend in disparity in access to health care. My views are the same as tenni's, these are all medical decisions that must be decided by a board of gynecologists and obstetricians, not by folk who have no medical training.

[keefer728]

Compared to a few of ur remarks it is the height of decency and moderation.. just tell me this?? Just who is it that gets pregnant and carries the child??? Just who is it who potentially dies in childbirth or has their health ruined? Not u lot anyway... hardly sexist.. merely an acceptance of which gender it is that has the children and takes the physical risks...

Should a woman have a say Keefer in whether or not her husband or partner has a vasectomy? A say yes.. a veto?? Dont be daft....

Darling woman. I,as a man, have always been on the side of men being responsible with the women they have sex with. The idea of getting a woman pregnant and just walking away is one that disgusts me. If we look at the statistics of who gets abortions, we see that there is a wide gap in social and economic advantages and disadvantages. But, this thread has already digressed from what Redd was even posting about.

[Gearbox]

I think the pic should be showed in school sex education classes.
Like it or not, heterosexual sex can lead to responsibilities not only to self&partner but to another Human life. It might scare them, but so it should! It IS bloody scary!

[DuckiesDarling]

Nothing but Darlin darlin'? One political (and very human) issue on the first page of forums is nothing but? Are we nowt but dimwits who can talk bugger all but sex, tits, cocks, pussies and positions? And abortion isnt an issue that affects thousands of bisexual women and quite a few gay...?

Fran, it's the second abortion/infanticide thread in the last month. It's a contentious issue that will never ever be resolved. It's a giant fucking slap in the face to mothers that have lost children to miscarriages and mothers who have had to have abortions for many reasons that do not include birth control.


Then you bring in the fact that Facebook censored the picture. Who gives a fuck, it's facebook. You agree to their terms of service when you sign up. Just as people agree to terms of service here, yet we constantly have the flaming and personal attacks and posts regarding nonconsensual sex and molestation. When are people going to open their eyes and realize if you want to post about shit like that, go make your own website where you make the rules and then you can have a say in what is allowed and what isn't allowed.

[darkeyes]

This thread reminds me of an article in the Chicago Tribune I read one or two weeks ago; a commentator was discussing another panic attack over the use of all forms of female contraception and egg-boosters. A lot of you may have heard about the remarks of Mr. Santorum, who wants to make contraception illegal to prevent the practice "things", as he put it, but in general, publicly funded centers that are specifically for female reproductive system health are being cut. Treatments for cervical cancer, infertility treatments, are getting less and less funding, while places for prostate cancer and viagra dispensers are getting more money. I still don't understand it. In a town next to me a woman was barred by a group of protesters when she tried to go to her next session of chemotherapy for ovarian cancer because they believe it unnatural. In a different town a pharmacy decided to no longer sell contraceptive pills, but continue to sell viagra. I don't understand this trend in disparity in access to health care. My views are the same as tenni's, these are all medical decisions that must be decided by a board of gynecologists and obstetricians, not by folk who have no medical training.

I understand it hun.. and in respect of Mr Santorum.. a man who has said would make his raped child go through childbirth, and others like him who are largely responsible for the state of affairs to which you refer, I understand only too well...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/jan/25/rick-santorum-rape-pregnancy?INTCMP=SRCH

[darkeyes]

It isnt a slap in the face to the women who have had miscarriages at all.. that's a bit of a red herring.. abortion is a completely different issue that many, on both sides of the divide, are concerned about.. I may disagree with the OP his views and his approach but I defend his right to raise the issue as I do those who take issue with him.. it is all very well to say start a web site but sometimes there are issues people who have their own websites wish to draw attention to on other web sites which they have signed up to... rape, molestation and even child abuse are issues which affect bisexuals as much as anyone else and are of concern to them.. abortion is just such an issue..

Simply because we are uncomfortable with an issue doesnt mean we should ignore it or suppress debate.. on the contrary.. it makes it even more imperative that they are debated or they go underground, as they were not so many decades ago, and people suffer as a consequence as we bury our heads in the sand and ignore the reality...

.. simply because an issue will not go away, or we cannot resolve it does not mean that we should not debate it and try and make some small contribution to doing just that..

[Long Duck Dong]

are we debating if abortion is right or wrong for ourselves ?, in most cases, no... we are debating the rights of others to make a choice in their lives.......

most abortion threads end up in personal attacks on people that have made hard choices in their lives... and then have to deal with the issues and BS that comes from people that have never had abortions but are quick to have a opinion about others that have done it.......

there are times that I think that there should be a rule that only people that get to pass judgement on other people, are the ones that have been thru the situation and have personal experience...... cos people like me can talk about abortions until we are blue in the face... but we will never experience having a abortion, what it feels like or why people make the choices they do when it comes to abortion........ then maybe we will see a lot less opinions and a lot more truth about the reality of abortion......

[DuckiesDarling]

It isnt a slap in the face to the women who have had miscarriages at all.. that's a bit of a red herring.. abortion is a completely different issue that many, on both sides of the divide, are concerned about.. I may disagree with the OP his views and his approach but I defend his right to raise the issue as I do those who take issue with him.. it is all very well to say start a web site but sometimes there are issues people who have their own websites wish to draw attention to on other web sites which they have signed up to... rape, molestation and even child abuse are issues which affect bisexuals as much as anyone else and are of concern to them.. abortion is just such an issue..

Simply because we are uncomfortable with an issue doesnt mean we should ignore it or suppress debate.. on the contrary.. it makes it even more imperative that they are debated or they go underground, as they were not so many decades ago, and people suffer as a consequence as we bury our heads in the sand and ignore the reality...

.. simply because an issue will not go away, or we cannot resolve it does not mean that we should not debate it and try and make some small contribution to doing just that..

I'm not uncomfortable with the issue, I have made my choice long ago to be prochoice in the instances of rape, incest, or the probable death of mother if carried to term. I also believe that fathers have a say but not when it's a rapist wanting to force the victim to have the child. I am uncomfortable with the fact that this is a site for LGBT issues not pushing political agendas or bitching about censorship on a site that is not controlled by this site.

Fran, I am a mother. I have had a miscarriage. I have never backed down from an argument about pregnancy, children or abortion, I just fight those battles on political forums not a biSEXUAL forum, yes this place is about Bisexuals and sexual issues. If you don't want to read threads about cocks, tits, pussies and asses then don't, that's your right. But there are better places for arguments regarding prochoice or freedom of speech than a website where it's more for issues facing LGBT people and their partners.

[darkeyes]

I just fight those battles on political forums not a biSEXUAL forum, yes this place is about Bisexuals and sexual issues. If you don't want to read threads about cocks, tits, pussies and asses then don't, that's your right. But there are better places for arguments regarding prochoice or freedom of speech than a website where it's more for issues facing LGBT people and their partners.

I fight most of my battles in the real world Darlin darlin.. the battles I fight here are for historical reasons that once 6 or 7 years ago I found this site, actually its predecessor, the old BCN and luffed the people on it.. I needed it..and grew to love those people so much and as they helped me and I grew in confidence the things I believed I began to post... havent stopped except when Ive had a break for one reason or tother.. most have gone now and I find that sad... I dont need .com any more...I fucking miss them... but I care for the people on it still even although they are not those I knew and luffed all that time ago... thats why I stick around... they may not care for what I have to say, just as often I do not for what they say... but I care.. and by caring would fail myself if I did not try and impart to them at least a little of me and the things in which I believe..I share my innermost thoughts and beliefs as I think others should do to me... even those things I may find appalling... some.. many think its an ego thing.. it may be cos I do have my vanity.. but that me luffly is how we should be..by holding back and hiding from the world the things we hold most dear, we do ourselves a betrayal and the world a disservice...

[keefer728]

I find you pleasantly annoying, Fran, and would not have you any other way. Why would I want to listen to myself or people like me all day long?

[darkeyes]

If I may be blunt Keefer, I find so much of what u say offensive and heartless, racist, xenophobic and misogynistic..I have also detected a hint of homophobia..does that mean I have contempt for u or dislike u? No.. cos we all have faults and I do find it so difficult to hate people... I detest and loathe and have absolute contempt for so much and so many of the things u say but I dont know ur history and what filled u with such bile... but bile u have, and an intolerance of difference which I find it hard to understand... I read what u say in the threads about religious issues and do wish that u would sit down, take a week or two and seriously think about what it is claimed ur saviour has said...

[keefer728]

You should know that I take that as a compliment.

[darkeyes]

You should know that I take that as a compliment.

Then u have learned nothing and wish to learn nothing....

[IanBorthwick]

That is the most sexist and utterly stupid remark I have ever heard a person make. But, thank you for revealing the true nature of yourself.

She did that a long time ago. She, and all the feminists out there, are in love with the idea men should be mute sperm donors until used and then are in DESPERATE need of castration were it not for the fact the law does that already by making women the owner of themselves, the baby, and the man's wallet for at least 18 years.

Fran, and all of the fembots like her, believe that men should not have a say so, and it is RIGHT they have no say so in reproductive rights. Why? Because it's HARD to live up to their end of things if the man differs from their sentiment.

But don't take MY word for it. Listen to the words of bisexual, fiction writing, mother of 3(2 boys and a girl)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRdq2zqGxgY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFYxlmRRnkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3UmXu97yRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50UCPLmNdnM

Cum on me luffly...show me how brave you are and listen to the voice of reason. LOL

Anyway, I am pro-choice. Not because I want to see any mothers giving up their children or aborting, but because no one should have the choices in life limited by religious zealotry. I'm for everyone having the rights to choose how they live free from Religious dogma and someone else's ideas of morality.

And showing that garbage on the internet without consent is akin to splashing it on the Super Bowl like they were planning this past year and were bitching about the fact they were denied the right to do so. Well I'd have been for it if they hadn't been so hypocritical about Janet Jackson's nipple slip that was accidental. WTF? Make war not love?

Just like we censor the advertisements for R rated movies, we can't go letting people bully using scare tactics and cheap parlor stunts on tv, the internet, or in front of an clinic. It's Brown Shirting, and you DO NOT have the right to enforce your amoral opinions on anyone. Especially in the US.

"We hold these truths to be self evident. That all men are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness."

This country was founded on the ideal of self-determination, not determination by the Zealot.

[pepperjack]

So I posted a picture yesterday. It was an aborted baby. Now yes maybe this was to far and the picture has been lost so no i wont repost since facebook removed it. But the point was that there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves. Personally I am against it unless in extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, or where the child/mother wont survive. So in light of this I have had many Straight peoples opinions and now i am looking for My gay/Lesbian/bi/trans opinions. What do You think? :flag1::rainbow::grouphug::soapbox:

Studied Dianetics for awhile in late 80's. It espouses AAbabies ( attempted abortions, extremely traumatized fetuses who survive) usually winding up in institutions such as prison,or for those very mentally ill.:2cents:

[marie0021]

im pro-choice, my opinion is not based on women's rights. Im pro-choice because there are too many unwanted children in this world, many of them are born to be abused and suffer.

[BiDaveDtown]

Studied Dianetics for awhile in late 80's. It espouses AAbabies ( attempted abortions, extremely traumatized fetuses who survive) usually winding up in institutions such as prison,or for those very mentally ill.:2cents:

LMAO why would you take anything that the cult of $cientology says seriously?

They believe in the alien Xenu and all this other BS, and they are highly homophobic/biphobic as well. Do your own research. Dianetics is how they lure people into their cult and the CO$ marketed the shit out of Dianetics as a self help book in the 80s.

I hope for your sake that you were easily able to get away from that cult.

I'm for abortion in some cases such as rape, when the mother's life is in danger,and incest but I'm against it for birth control or because you don't want a child and didn't use any of the many methods of birth control at all and got pregnant anyway.

[æonpax]

So I posted a picture yesterday. It was an aborted baby. Now yes maybe this was to far and the picture has been lost so no i wont repost since facebook removed it. But the point was that there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves. Personally I am against it unless in extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, or where the child/mother wont survive. So in light of this I have had many Straight peoples opinions and now i am looking for My gay/Lesbian/bi/trans opinions. What do You think?

The logic and rationalization for people posting pictures of aborted fetuses to highlight or otherwise bring to peoples attention the issue of abortion, is not only flawed, it’s disingenuous and hypocritical.


1 - There are many who believe that life begins at the moment of conception. When the egg and sperm unite, a human being comes into existence.

2 – The word “fetus” is a medical term signifying the develop stage of a mammal. However, if you believe in human life at conception, it’s not just some kind tissue growth in the womb, it’s also called a Human Being.

Synopsis: What one proposes is posting pictures of DEAD human beings, in the fetal stage, in order to sensationalize or publicize a pro-life stance. Aside from the questionable effect this has, pray tell, where is the dignity and respect for this Human Being? The ends here, do not justify the means.

If I take this logic a bit further, unabated, one can justify;
a) showing pictures of dead humans involved in auto accidents with drunk drivers to publicize the problem of DUI.
b) showing pictures of dead humans who didn’t wear seat belts,
c) showing pictures of dead humans who don’t eat a balanced breakfast, to promote Rice Krispies., et al.This is, of course absurd.

At the beginning of the immoral Iraq war, do you remember how outraged people were when a picture showing a dead US citizen hanging on a bridge was publicized? Or, how disrespectful people thought it was showing pictures of the caskets of US service people being brought home, was? …but somehow, it’s not disrespectful showing a picture of a dead human fetus?

Hypocrisy.

[elian]

She did that a long time ago. She, and all the feminists out there, are in love with the idea men should be mute sperm donors until used and then are in DESPERATE need of castration

YO! I didn't say that I would be mute, I said that I would try anything I could, short of harming ANOTHER life. I might try to counsel someone, or just be somebody there to listen and bounce ideas off of but I am not going to forcibly impose my will on another person, that is just as bad as what some of you are trying to "prevent" in the first place.

I actually think that life begins BEFORE conception, although we may not be consciously aware of it..you may say - "What the hell are you smoking?!" but I don't think we act alone in this universe.

You all think it's so easy, put yourself in that other person's shoes - try it yourself once and see.. Please don't take this to mean that I am heartless, I wish there was NEVER a reason, but I am not God - I cannot judge another person's life with certainty.

[darkeyes]

Cum on me luffly...show me how brave you are and listen to the voice of reason. LOL



I always listen to reason.. also as it so happens I also listen to hysterical, anti feminist, misogynistic crap.. thats why I take issue with it or, as in your case.. prefer to ignore it cos it is so stupid it exposes itself in its ignorance requiring no comment from me...

[pepperjack]

LMAO why would you take anything that the cult of $cientology says seriously?

They believe in the alien Xenu and all this other BS, and they are highly homophobic/biphobic as well. Do your own research. Dianetics is how they lure people into their cult and the CO$ marketed the shit out of Dianetics as a self help book in the 80s.

I hope for your sake that you were easily able to get away from that cult.

I'm for abortion in some cases such as rape, when the mother's life is in danger,and incest but I'm against it for birth control or because you don't want a child and didn't use any of the many methods of birth control at all and got pregnant anyway.

I'm just open-minded. I only read the book and found much of what it said about the power of the subconscious mind very interesting. I never got involved in Scientology and I'm aware of how controversial they are.

[void()]

Or, how disrespectful people thought it was showing pictures of the caskets of US service people being brought home, was?

I do not think this is why coffins returning were not televised. It was done I think because many business interests felt it unwise to remind people of the cost of war. These same interests likely do not seek inciting those whom have read _War Is A Racket_.

I think it is honourable to witness fallen comrades coming home. Despite a POTUS', flaws it is telling if he follows protocol and salutes the fallen upon return. The current POTUS not only saluted but pitched in as a bearer during transport for some, on a televised report.

Granted one could argue such a gesture could be a photo opportunity to glean favourable light upon POTUS. The point being POTUS did not need to do that, the fact he did speaks volumes of his sense of honour. May not exactly agree with the POTUS but he did earn respect in a simple gesture.

Carry on sir.

[reddc513]

im pro-choice, my opinion is not based on women's rights. Im pro-choice because there are too many unwanted children in this world, many of them are born to be abused and suffer.

i believe there is no such thing as an unwanted child. I my self may have trouble becomign preg and having children of my own. i have also had friend that are unable to have children. Many have said they would like to adopt. I also have friends that have been adopted. The biggest trouble is the expense. I can understand why so expensive however kinda doesnt make since because then you have the cost of raising the child. But Like i said NO UNWANTED CHILDREN. abuse happend out side of unwanted children.

[elian]

i believe there is no such thing as an unwanted child. I my self may have trouble becomign preg and having children of my own. i have also had friend that are unable to have children. Many have said they would like to adopt. I also have friends that have been adopted. The biggest trouble is the expense. I can understand why so expensive however kinda doesnt make since because then you have the cost of raising the child. But Like i said NO UNWANTED CHILDREN. abuse happend out side of unwanted children.

Well that is a good point, I may be romanticizing but I would like to think that most young parents who are surprised by a pregnancy just don't know how to deal with the shock. It may not be that the child is really unwanted, but the parent may not have the maturity, experience or resources to properly care for another human life.

I am grateful for strong, resilient extended families who are able to help take care of a child born into those circumstances and not treat the whole subject as "taboo". Unfortunately that's not a benefit that everyone in society has.

There ARE cases of trauma such as rape that I won't even claim to understand since I've never had to deal with the prospect of birthing a child as a result of forced sex.

If our society was as strong and loving as our desire for profit and self-satisfaction than maybe women wouldn't be ASHAMED to have children..maybe people would willingly share what they have to bring a child into the world, maybe even if a woman was raped people in society wouldn't treat her as an outcast...

These are not issues that I'm going to be able to solve in my lifetime.. Some people will say, "But I don't want to have to pay for HER kids if she can't keep her legs closed!" I'm talking about training people in our society to understand that they are loved and worthy, so they DON'T feel as though they have to look for affection on a whim.. Hmm, I say 'whim' but some people in our society have a VERY deep hunger for acceptance and affection..those are strong, powerful emotions.

Even then, if society was supposedly "perfect", I still can't make the stretch to telling people exactly what THEY should do in every circumstance. The divine endowed us with the ability to make our own choices for a reason.

I'm not saying that any life is worth less than any other, just that there are no easy answers.

[*pan*]

So I posted a picture yesterday. It was an aborted baby. Now yes maybe this was to far and the picture has been lost so no i wont repost since facebook removed it. But the point was that there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves. Personally I am against it unless in extreme circumstances such as rape, incest, or where the child/mother wont survive. So in light of this I have had many Straight peoples opinions and now i am looking for My gay/Lesbian/bi/trans opinions. What do You think? :flag1::rainbow::grouphug::soapbox:

what were your reasons for posting such a picture, were you advertising for the pro life movement, you say in your post you accept abortion for certian circumstances, so then you do approve of abortion set by what you believe are good reasons, in other words your opinion, so in your opinion it is ok to abort for your moral reasons, and other reasons or opinions are invalid. only yours are valid and right, so what was the point of posting it.

[darkeyes]

i believe there is no such thing as an unwanted child. I my self may have trouble becomign preg and having children of my own. i have also had friend that are unable to have children. Many have said they would like to adopt. I also have friends that have been adopted. The biggest trouble is the expense. I can understand why so expensive however kinda doesnt make since because then you have the cost of raising the child. But Like i said NO UNWANTED CHILDREN. abuse happend out side of unwanted children.

I cant speak for you, but but what most prospective adoptive parents want are babies.. there are very few babies up for adoption and abortion isnt the only reason why that is although it is a large part of the reason... few want an older child and the psycholigical baggage it may carry with it from an unkown past.. there are many unwanted children as the numbers who either run away from home, are abandoned, ejected from the family home or are placed into care shows... and some adoptive parents like natural parents do abandon their children, do abuse them, do eject them and do have them put into care..

People are not breeding machines to satisfy the needs of women who are unable to conceive.. abortion is a regrettable evil which society bears because the alternative is worse and because many parents fail in providing for their child a decent and proper sex education and many governments, local authorities and schools inisist on an inadequate standard of education in this area.. all too often parents are allowed to remove from sex education classes children who are at greatest risk of an unwanted pregnancy.. in the early years of the 21st century with contraceptive methods being readily and in this country very often freely available why do we have such a great number of abortions? The Roman Catholic Church bears its responsibility in this area because of its stand against contraception, but they are not alone.. residual societal attitudes that sex is dirty plays its part among those of all religions and those of none.. until a healtier attitude to sex becomes a reality, abortion in such great numbers will continue..

.. but think on this.. having worked with and known a goodly number of pro lifers and anti abortionists, it is interesting just how many have no compunction in taking the emergency "contraception" (the morning after pill) because of their own shenanigans... I have always found it interesting and think nothing of throwing it in their face when they have the cheek to call me an accessory to murder..

[darkeyes]

Fran, and all of the fembots like her, believe that men should not have a say so, and it is RIGHT they have no say so in reproductive rights.

I have no say in anyone's reproductive rights save my own... no one, man or woman has the right to decide whether or not I have children, just as I have no right to decide upon your reproductive rights or anyone elses... no one has the right to insist that any another person conceives and bears a child, or to prevent them from taking contraception, or being sterilised if that is what they wish.. and just as no one has the right to insist that a woman has an abortion, no single person other than herself has the right to deny it her within the confines of the law...the only person who has any of those rights is the person whose body it is who may carry any child... not a partner, nor anyone else... it is her body, and it is she who undergoes the physical and mental risk of pregnancy.. the fucking arrogance of some is beyond description and belief...

[12voltman59]

I like what Gloria Steinham says about abortion: "If men could get pregnant--then abortion would be a sacrament!"

I also like the late great George Carlin's take on abortion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekUEXULMXg

His take on religion too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPOfurmrjxo&feature=related

'Nuff said as far as I am concerned!!!

[elian]

Fran, and all of the fembots like her, believe that men should not have a say so, and it is RIGHT they have no say so in reproductive rights. Why? Because it's HARD to live up to their end of things if the man differs from their sentiment.

..a man DOES have reproductive rights, he can choose whether or not to use his penis..

There are PLENTY of women who want to have families, and there are PLENTY who do not - if a man wants to have a family he should seek out a woman who strongly feels the same way.. am I missing something?

[tenni]

I see your point Elian with regard to a man's use of his penis. It might be a stronger position if the percentage of pregnancy was higher for each insertion of a penis. If the odds were 95% then fewer men would insert penis A into Vagina A.:tong:

There is a position with regards to men and decisions on abortion that is unresolved imo. Although I strongly support the right of women to determine which medical procedures will be performed on their body, there is the question of men's rights to raise a child born out of an unwanted pregnancy. If both were required to sign an agreement before inserting penis A into vagina A declaring should there be a pregnancy what will happen, it might be better. Humans being human and men being horny buggers, I can not see it working though..:bigrin:

[FunE1]

RED...

I think that posting a pic of an aborted fetus because "there are people that can read the facts and still not see still not realize what abortion really means until they see it for themselves" reduces the issue to being solely about the fetus, which it is not.

I seen an abortion in the context in which it takes place, each one different and unique, taking place in a set of circumstances that, barring my personal involvement, I am unable to truly judge as I am not privy to all of the information about the terminated pregnancy. That's all stuff that you can't really fit in to a photo but which defines as much "what abortion really means" as the fetus does, IMO.

[darkeyes]

//there is the question of men's rights to raise a child born out of an unwanted pregnancy. :bigrin:

This has nothing to do with abortion Tenni, unless it is accepted that a man, should he wish to raise the child from an unwanted pregnancy, can insist on the pregnancy going full term thus overruling the wishes of the person who takes the risks... and ur right, ur little sign up is unrealistic and nonsensical...

[tenni]

This has nothing to do with abortion Tenni, unless it is accepted that a man, should he wish to raise the child from an unwanted pregnancy, can insist on the pregnancy going full term thus overruling the wishes of the person who takes the risks... and ur right, ur little sign up is unrealistic and nonsensical...

That is in fact part of the dilemma about abortion and parental rights. They are linked. If a man is responsible for the consequences of intercourse, he also should have certain rights as to the decision about the pregnancy. It is an unresolved dilemma based upon patriarchal perceptions about child rearing responsibilities. I don't have the answer and I doubt that you have the answer either. I support the right of women to make decisions about their body but I also support a the rights of fathers. Not all women are the best parent. Not all women stay in the child's life(most do though). Should the mother take the pregnancy to full term, the father's rights need to be factored in and are not. I don't think that this issue ends with abortion or going full term. It is linked to any child born and both biological parents. I suspect that any anti abortion advocate does not carry their position beyond stating their opposition to abortion. They spend no time or effort to go beyond the first stage of the issue.

As to the unreasonableness of my joking proposition is not as silly as you may think. Remember women having voting rights was seen as unreasonable and silly at one time. It may just take someone with more intelligence and time than myself to develop better ideas. You're intelligent. Why not spend some time on this issue. ;)

Elian's comment about men and their penis may also be applied to women. If they use their vagina for sex, they need to realize that the man should have rights if there is a pregnancy due to penis A inserted into Vagina A.

[darkeyes]

That is in fact part of the dilemma about abortion and parental rights. They are linked. If a man is responsible for the consequences of intercourse, he also should have certain rights as to the decision about the pregnancy. It is an unresolved dilemma based upon patriarchal perceptions about child rearing responsibilities. I don't have the answer and I doubt that you have the answer either. I support the right of women to make decisions about their body but I also support a the rights of fathers. Not all women are the best parent. Not all women stay in the child's life(most do though). Should the mother take the pregnancy to full term, the father's rights need to be factored in and are not. I don't think that this issue ends with abortion or going full term. It is linked to any child born and both biological parents. I suspect that any anti abortion advocate does not carry their position beyond stating their opposition to abortion. They spend no time or effort to go beyond the first stage of the issue.

As to the unreasonableness of my joking proposition is not as silly as you may think. Remember women having voting rights was seen as unreasonable at one time.

Elian's comment about men and their penis may also be applied to women. If they use their vagina for sex, they need to realize that the man should have rights if there is a pregnancy due to penis A inserted into Vagina A.

They are linked only if it is accepted that the man has rights of control over the body of a woman carrying his child.. that is not a contention I could ever agree with..

Where we may have common ground is much of what you say about once a child is born.. quite often the mother is not the best person to raise a child after the end of a relationship or even sometimes if there never had been any relationship.. some women are quite unsuited to being parents and many do disappear from a childs life.. that the law sometimes disregards a father's rights simply because it is felt that the child should be with it's mother is not always right and often leads to very disturbed and tragic consequences.. but there is a bond between mother and child which a father can never have but that should never in itself overrule what is in the best interests of the child... normally I would argue that it is in the best interests of a child to remain with its mother and in such circumstances it must then be decided what part if any the father plays in his child's life but in some instances that is not always the case.. often however, when deciding custody or parental rights, courts get it very wrong and do make mistakes when deciding upon custody and/or rights of access of the non custodial parent..

Fathers do have rights and normally, where there has been a relationship between father/mother and child they should be allowed to have those rights enforced sometimes even against the wishes of the mother.. this is not the case necessarily where a father has had no relationship other than a quickie up a back alley with the woman who bears his child, and usually in such cases we are talking about his responsibility for the upkeep of his child if she ever manages to track him down... sometimes however even they can and do play a role but that decision should be left in most instances with the mother.. anything else he may want he has the option of recourse to law...

In the case of abusive or neglectful fathers/husbands/partners we are talking about a wholly different scenario and in such instances fathers should have no access to mother or child save that which she or the courts may allow.. but this is not all one way.. there are some women who are equally abusive and neglectful, even if far fewer in number, but they do exist and in which case it is they who should be deprived of access or any automatic rights to their child..

..each case should be considered on its merits, but the bond between mother and child is something that should never be underestimated in importance in a child's life.. and neither should the wishes of a child if that child is old enough to be able to express his or her wish.. but in the end, in event of a serious dispute a third party, usually a court of law, has to decide what happens and upon what conditions.. and in the end it should not be what is in the best interests of father or mother which is the final arbiter, but what is in the best interest of the child...

Far too many good loving fathers have been deprived of playing any part in their childen's lives because of the bitterness of marital or relationship break down.. but also some good mothers have had their children removed and awarded to the father and deprived contact because the court has accepted the father's case... bitterness is a two street in such instances and it is something I have seen all too often.. lies, lies and more lies born out of hate and bitterness with no thought for the child...yes father's rights should be respected but never automatically.. and neither should a mother's..because there are so many issues involved in parenthood it is often difficult to get to the truth of the matter as each tells her or his story... mistakes will always be made and children will suffer because of it..

So I agree with you tenni in my own way... but only once a child has been born... but think on this tenni.. just occasionally as I have seen a few in my life, both in work and out, neither parent is deserving of any rights over their child... in the end what we are talking of should not be not rights over a child or to a child.. but responsibilities to the welfare of a child..

.. but it is not a linked issue to that of a father's rights over the body of a pregnant woman except in the very loosest sense.. it actually is quite a separate issue...

[tenni]

"this is not the case necessarily where a father has had no relationship other than a quickie up a back alley with the woman who bears his child, and usually in such cases we are talking about his responsibility for the upkeep of his child if she ever manages to track him down... sometimes however even they can and do play a role but that decision should be left in most instances with the mother.. anything else he may want he has the option of recourse to law..."

I agree very much with a lot of things that you wrote darkeyes but the above section may need a bit more thought as connected to abortion.

Even, if the pregnancy is the result of a quickie (not rape though) times may be changing or expectations. Initially, many men under the quickie scenario may reject the idea of any connection to the child. I am aware of several men whose initial reaction was rejection of responsibility. This may be due to how men are socialized. That is in part changing as well. Even so, many men upon reflecting a bit more begin to examine their responsibility towards the possibility of being a father...then without plans. I have a very good friend who resisted having a child even though his wife wished one. He could not ever see himself holding a baby or raising a child. I told him that he had two choices: divorce or have the child. He relented and they had the child. You will not find a more loving and proud dad as my friend. He had to shift his thinking. In unexpected pregnancies men are shocked just as the woman.

If the woman tracks him down, she should expect an immediate rejection response from the man. That way she will be prepared. However, some men after the shock begin to alter their thoughts. I think that even if the man rejects taking an active role in the pregnancy, the mother should inform him of the various stages. Do not let him reject his responsibility. When the child is born or if, the father needs to be held accountable. Hopefully, he is not so stupid to ignore the reality that he is becoming a father or may be one.

Just as significant, are the unresolved two issues. The rights of the woman to make decisions about her body and the rights of the man to take over responsibility for any child born. If the father exhibits a desire to raise the child if born during early pregnancy, then there should be counselling for the two. It may should be legally enforced should the man make application. This is the hostile point due to time restrictions and the rights of the woman regarding her own body. As I wrote, it is unresolved in part due to society shifts and beliefs about parental responsibilities.

just a thought or two about a difficult issue. I know wild and full of flaws talking out of my arse but get my intent?

[darkeyes]

.

just a thought or two about a difficult issue. I know wild and full of flaws talking out of my arse but get my intent?

U talk out ya arse, tenni??? Naaaaaa.. neva... dont believe it..;) But life is fulla flaws an all sortsa conundrums, hun and even I talk outa mine sumtimes:eek:: I kno... hard 2 believe huh? Am off out babes.. will ansa tomoz...:)

[elian]

Humans being human and men being horny buggers, I can not see it working though..:bigrin:

Yeah, well it's not MY fault the man didn't talk to the woman and get to know her before he decided to use exhibit A. Maybe men need a refresher on how this is supposed to work?

..

The Internet Oracle has pondered your question deeply. Your question was:

> what is sex?

And in response, thus spake the Oracle:

} Sex is what happens when a man and a woman...hmm, no, that's not
} quite it. Sex is what happens when two (or more) people get together
} and...do stuff. You know, nookie? No? Lovemaking? No? Ok, you must
} know about the birds and the bees? No? *sigh* I thought not.
}
} Ok, the bird comes along and sticks its beak into the..hmm, no
} that's not quite it. The bee comes along and sticks its...well,
} you see, it's like inserting tab A into slot B. Only you do it a lot
} of times and the result can be more boxes if you're not careful, or
} worse yet, tab A gets something from slot B and falls off. Or slot B
} gets something from tab A and then you have to smear goopy cream all
} over slot B, during which time inserting tab A into slot B is just
} not going to happen, what kind of slot do you think B is anyways?
} Meanwhile, tab A is busily being inserted into slot C or D, without
} even so much as a phone call the day after. And tab M just looks on
} just wishing it could be tab A, because nice tabs never get any slots.
} And then there's tab F who actually likes tab R, but isn't sure if tab
} R folds that way. Slot C eventually finds out about slot D and they
} all find out about slot B, who in turn finds out about slot C and D
} and in a vengeful plot, tears tab A from its box in a fit of passion.
} Slot C ends up meeting tab M, and it turns out tab M fits perfectly
} into slot C--no jostling or forceful cramming at all. Tab and slot
} C are joined forever by tab K, who has sworn not to insert itself
} into anything and a few months later, there are new tabs and slots
} and everyone, except for A, is happy.
}
} And that, my son, is how corrugated cardboard boxes are made.

-From the Internet Oracle postings at cs.indiana.edu

[tenni]

"what kind of slot do you think B is anyways?"

Oh.. I like that, yes I do!:bigrin::bigrin:

A slotty kind. :tongue: Maybe one of dem dere free lovin bisexuals that everyone keeps chatting about not being monogamous. :eek::tong:

"Maybe men need a refresher on how this is supposed to work?"

Oh, I'm fairly certain men know how it works but for some men, its the little head overrules the big head almost every time until around 30-40 for a lot of men.:tong: Some never use the big head before the little head takes over.:( or so some women say:tongue:

[lady_starlight]

When the day comes, and men get pregnant and carry their children to term, and their health and lives are put at risk and go through the body changes, trials and tribulations of pregancy, then a father may have a say in whether a child is or is not carried to term... for now, they may express a preference, but they should never have the right to exercise a veto nor should they be allowed to place undue pressure on the person who actually does give birth..

i haven't finished reading the whole thread yet - but i just had to pause and say i wish we had a "Like" button here - i'd click it several times for this post Darkeyes!

Every time i see people saying then men should have a say in a woman having an abortion, i get angry eyes. You wouldn't suggest a man force a woman to abort her baby if she wanted to keep it, so why should he be able to force her to keep it if she doesn't want to?

As for people using abortion as 'birth control' when it is easily accessible - i think cases like that are an exception to the rule. Since 1988 abortion has been completely legal in Canada. That means accessible to anyone (14 and over without parental consent) who needs it, and free. (You will see a lot of pro-life sites that claim abortion was legal as of 1969, however that's only partially true - it was 'legal' if a committee of 3 doctors decided that carrying the baby to term would endanger the mother's health - abortion outside of these conditions was still illegal and anyone involved in procuring an abortion for themselves or someone else could be prosecuted). There are statistics on abortions performed in hospitals and clinics since the 70's. I would assume that legalizing all abortion would make the rates go up significantly (even if only because those who would have had illegal abortions could now have them in medical facilities and therefore be counted), especially since the theory is that readily accessible abortions means everyone will be getting them. The rates did go up, but not by much. Over the last 20 years there have been spikes and dips in the rates (as there were spikes and dip in the 17 years prior) - but overall, abortion rates in Ontario have increased less than 2% from 1989 to 2009 (the last year we have statistics readily available). There are years prior to 1988 (when only "therapeutic" abortions were allowed and counted) that have higher rates than recent years.

I realize this is only a Canadian perspective (well, actually only an Ontarian one) but to me it disproves the idea that readily accessible abortions mean more abortions, and that it means people using abortion as a form of "birth control" (because if people were doing that, there would be higher rates) Also - Ontario's population increased by about 30% in that time period - so if abortions only increased by 2%, then technically the rate of abortion is going down!

Anyways, I'm not jumping into the debate as to whether abortion is right or wrong - I'm thankful to live in a country where if it was a decision i needed to make, i would be able to make that decision freely. I just wanted to show that some of the arguments against legalizing abortions/making it readily available were not necessarily true, and based more on a society's assumption than actual facts. (not pointing fingers at any one person - it just seems to be the overwhelming tendency of the pro lifer groups to base their arguments on this idea).

Sorry if i don't totally make grammatical sense - it's midnight, i'm sleepy, and i'm Canadian - we do things a bit differently here sometimes ;) lol

[CherryBlossom74]

All BS namecalling aside, I feel like adding my 2 cents to this thread.

I believe in, in part, what darkeyes said, that the children SHOULD receive a better education regarding sex to ensure that teen/unwanted pregnancy doesn't occur so often. In my opinion I just see one major obstacle to that however - Organized religion, more specifically Christianity. I'm more familiar with the Protestant form of Christianity growing up in a Protestant family, but I'm pretty sure that most forms of Christianity feel that talking about sex is sinful and doing it is generally only tolerated between a husband and his wife. If a child is properly educated about sex (aka What the process is, What can come of it, How to protect yourself and your partner, etc) then we'd be set but most people's minds are closed against it because of their deep-seeded religious fear of sin - whether consciously or unconsciously.

I don't have any foreknowledge into what other religions have to say about sex so I can't give my opinion there.

I've found a few websites that discuss how Scandinavian countries handle sex education and their implications:


http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/070318/26sex.htm
http://goscandinavia.about.com/od/specialinterestadult/qt/sexualityinscan.htm
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14681810601134702

As far as I can see, sex education done right without religion obstructing it (kind of like those countries mentioned in my above links) should help in reducing the number of teen pregnancies - not necessarily eliminate it - and should consequently lower the numbers of abortions needed as a means of contraception.

Now as for Abortion needed in consequence of say rape, incest or medical necessity then I don't see that there is any problem. Rape = non-consensual and without love; Incest = possible genetic abnormalities = child with way too many medical/mental problems; Medical Necessity = either mother, child or both could die or be severely injured if pregnancy continues. So, those should sufficient reasons to need to abort the pregnancy.

I also agree with tenni about showing the dead fetus being "sensationalist manipulation".

Oh, by the way æonpax, when a fetus is conceived it is just a SINGLE CELL. Would you consider an amoeba a human being? Yes, the genetic material that single cell (zygote) will use to make a human being is all there it isn't anything but a single cell. It's not until between weeks 5 and 13 do the heart, spine and brain begin to develop. http://www.ehow.com/about_5379322_stages-fetal-development.html I'm not sure where the idea is that that single cell has consciousness came from but it screams to me to be of religious leanings, though I don't know where or if it's in the Bible.

So, there's my 2 cents on this discussion... well maybe about 5-10 cents worth; I'm not going to post any further on this thread no matter how much certain posters spit on me. :bigrin: Later (but just not on this thread).

[æonpax]

I do not think this is why coffins returning were not televised. It was done I think because many business interests felt it unwise to remind people of the cost of war. These same interests likely do not seek inciting those whom have read _War Is A Racket_.
I think it is honourable to witness fallen comrades coming home. Despite a POTUS', flaws it is telling if he follows protocol and salutes the fallen upon return. The current POTUS not only saluted but pitched in as a bearer during transport for some, on a televised report.
Granted one could argue such a gesture could be a photo opportunity to glean favourable light upon POTUS. The point being POTUS did not need to do that, the fact he did speaks volumes of his sense of honour. May not exactly agree with the POTUS but he did earn respect in a simple gesture.
Carry on sir.

1 - I didn't say "TV", I said "pictures" (Big difference)

2 - Casket photo sparks Air Force investigation, outrage - http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/14/9447771-casket-photo-sparks-air-force-investigation-outrage and White House Photo Of Dead Troops Ceremony Sparks Protest - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/10/white-house-photo-of-dead_n_923952.html

While your book may be correct, still my point remains valid.

[æonpax]

i haven't finished reading the whole thread yet - but i just had to pause and say i wish we had a "Like" button here - i'd click it several times for this post Darkeyes!

Every time i see people saying then men should have a say in a woman having an abortion, i get angry eyes. You wouldn't suggest a man force a woman to abort her baby if she wanted to keep it, so why should he be able to force her to keep it if she doesn't want to? {snipped for brevity}

While I am sympathetic to the many involved men who have a sincere interest and/or love for the human potential their female mate carries, that sympathy does not extend to the uninvolved males who use religion or their own convoluted idealism's to interfere in a females legal choice.

I've been to abortion clinics and they are very somber places. The majority of adult females who finally decide on that procedure, agonize over it. I was also stunned at the amount of under 18 females there, most happen to be black and Latino. Also, at both of them, there were these mindless protestors (mostly men) hurling insults and abuses on women entering the clinic. I was called a "whore of Babylon" among other things and I was just there to help with escorting.

I am personally against abortions for the sake of convenience or to maintain a lifestyle, especially in light of all the information and precautions a woman can use. However, I will not stand in her way, as such a decision is her legal right.

[darkeyes]

"this is not the case necessarily where a father has had no relationship other than a quickie up a back alley with the woman who bears his child, and usually in such cases we are talking about his responsibility for the upkeep of his child if she ever manages to track him down... sometimes however even they can and do play a role but that decision should be left in most instances with the mother.. anything else he may want he has the option of recourse to law..."

I agree very much with a lot of things that you wrote darkeyes but the above section may need a bit more thought as connected to abortion.

Even, if the pregnancy is the result of a quickie (not rape though) times may be changing or expectations. Initially, many men under the quickie scenario may reject the idea of any connection to the child. I am aware of several men whose initial reaction was rejection of responsibility. This may be due to how men are socialized. That is in part changing as well. Even so, many men upon reflecting a bit more begin to examine their responsibility towards the possibility of being a father...then without plans. I have a very good friend who resisted having a child even though his wife wished one. He could not ever see himself holding a baby or raising a child. I told him that he had two choices: divorce or have the child. He relented and they had the child. You will not find a more loving and proud dad as my friend. He had to shift his thinking. In unexpected pregnancies men are shocked just as the woman.

If the woman tracks him down, she should expect an immediate rejection response from the man. That way she will be prepared. However, some men after the shock begin to alter their thoughts. I think that even if the man rejects taking an active role in the pregnancy, the mother should inform him of the various stages. Do not let him reject his responsibility. When the child is born or if, the father needs to be held accountable. Hopefully, he is not so stupid to ignore the reality that he is becoming a father or may be one.

Just as significant, are the unresolved two issues. The rights of the woman to make decisions about her body and the rights of the man to take over responsibility for any child born. If the father exhibits a desire to raise the child if born during early pregnancy, then there should be counselling for the two. It may should be legally enforced should the man make application. This is the hostile point due to time restrictions and the rights of the woman regarding her own body. As I wrote, it is unresolved in part due to society shifts and beliefs about parental responsibilities.

just a thought or two about a difficult issue. I know wild and full of flaws talking out of my arse but get my intent?

Tenni..what connection to abortion? There is no connection if a child is born.. should a termination be decided upon we revert to just who has the right to take the decision.. I know of several cases where just such a father.. a one of quickie knee trembler tried to force the woman to have an abortion and also at least of one where the man suddenly got interested.. not in the woman at all, but in a selfish interest for the future of his genes... it was not his intention to play any part or to make any contribution worth while.. yet that same guy, along with his parents pressured his sister into abortion for good old fashioned family reasons of shame..

I have no objection, tenni, to any man seeking to persuade a woman to take a child to term, with all the risks that entails, if done in a gentle and considerate way.. if he wishes to raise the child all well and good but in the end, he has no right of veto of either in her carrying the child to term, or of a termination.. it is as it must be, her decision... but I do caution this.. there is potentially much emotional blackmail involved and a pregnant woman is a different person from who she was prior to pregnancy, and who she will be after.. the stresses of one in anguish over whether to terminate or not does need pressured by guilt or accusation which often, if not usually is, the case.. in the end she takes the risks, undergoes the changes which are often not nice, undergoes what is an often dangerous and painful childbirth, undergoes the fear which accompanies pregnancy and childbirth... not the man whose seed was implanted in her and fertilised her egg.. when he undergoes what women do now, and takes all the risks to health and life, then he will have the say on whether to terminate or not.. indeed he would insist on having that say and he would be quite right to do so.. and he would be very unhappy if, as u suggest, a court of law was brought in to make him go through something which he did not want..

Courts do get involved in occasional decisions on terminations, but these are usually to do with legal technicalities or on pregnancies of girls who it is felt are unable to make a decision due to some congenital condition and could never care for a child in any case or it was felt her life was threatened.. they have more ordered terminations than stopped... courts becoming involved is very rare and so it should be.. there is enough stress as it is without bringing a court of law into the proceedings, and it is recognised by the law, that as long as the conditions as determined by law are met, then the only person who has the final say about whether or not to terminate, is the person who is pregnant.. and that tenni, is as it should be too..

[tenni]

darkeyes
"the man suddenly got interested.. not in the woman at all, but in a selfish interest for the future of his genes... it was not his intention to play any part or to make any contribution worth while.. yet that same guy, along with his parents pressured his sister into abortion for good old fashioned family reasons of shame.."

I can not really understand this conflicting position of this man and yet I am interested enough to comment. Why would a woman carry a fetus to full term if not in part for the interest for future of her genes and the fact that this is a potential life of her genes? The interpretation would be similar but different for both men and women. Whether or not the man plans to play any part in the potential child's life I can not challenge except that I know men who have played a very significant role in their child's life even after the couple broke up. There may be many examples of both playing a part in the child's life and those who abandon the child (both male and female). I see your comment as something that you have determined about a particular case but not appropriate to generalize that such pregnancies are complicated. I don't have an answer.

Whether there is a right for a man to veto a pregnancy is a difficult moral issue. I would generally agree with you that I am inclined to favour the right for a woman as it is her body. I would like to see a process developed where if a man wants the pregnancy carried to full term that counselling is provided for both separately and jointly as well as speedily. I would suspect that it would be no longer than one week after a man applies for such a mediation. Emotions may be running very high and the two may not make rational decisions. I do think that a woman if she wants to abort will do so. Historically this has been proven over and over even when abortion was not legal. Bottom line is that I do agree with you but would like to see the mediation.

"when he undergoes what women do now, and takes all the risks to health and life, then he will have the say on whether to terminate or not"
Now, darkeyes.;) This is a bit of extremist statement and science fictionish? ;) :bigrin: I get your point but I thought that I would add my comment to your own. It almost reads as if I could have written it in an idealistic fever myself. :)

[darkeyes]

Whether there is a right for a man to veto a pregnancy is a difficult moral issue.

It is not a very difficult moral issue whatsoever... it is her body.. her decision... counsel all u like and counselling is done and is available.. but the unalterable fact is.. the man does not carry the child.. when he does.. then he can decide.. it may well be science fictionish but it is not extreme... extreme, babes, is a man deciding whether or not a woman shall have his baby and having the right to overturn her decision...

[darkeyes]

..and while we are about counselling..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/27/abortion-counselling-consultation

[tenni]

Perhaps a poor choice of wording but it is a moral decision for both the woman and the man imo. I agree and disagree with you darkeyes. For you it is a simple clear cut moral decision. As a man, no it is not so clear cut.

As far as the article is concerned, I don't think that it the type of counselling that I am referring to.

[darkeyes]

Perhaps a poor choice of wording but it is a moral decision imo. I agree and disagree with you darkeyes. For you it is a simple clear cut moral decision. As a man, no it is not so clear cut.

That it is a moral decision I dont argue.. as a woman, even one who has never faced the dilemma personally and is unlikely to, it is perfectly clear cut... not the decision as such because that will rarely be so, but just whose decision it is..:)

[stu.gottz]

Question for all the Anti-Choice folks. Are you against all abortion or just prenatal? Put another way do you also oppose capital punishment the ultimate late term abortion? And for that matter how do you feel about collateral damage in war, you know where innocent people die as the result of misplaced bombs and gunfire? I ask because it strikes me as disingenuous to make a decision about another persons body and life in one context but not in others.

For the record I personally am not pro abortion and as a man I know I get very little say but if I were half of a pregnancy my choice would always be to keep the child but THAT IS MY CHOICE, not yours.

[Sonja]

I am Fully Pro Choice. I feel that what a woman wants to do with her body is NOT anyone else's business and the moment you step in and try controlling what another does. Well, then that mens we have a RIGHT to control what you do with your body. Its a personal medical choice and if you do not like it, well move to Iraq or any of the other countries where women are treated as second class human beings. How anyone thinks they actually have a right to stick their nose not just in another's business, but their personal medical choices is beyond delusional and insane. If you feel this is insulting, well its just as insulting as you trying to tell another human being what she can or can't do. Based on YOUR PERSONAL ideas, beliefs, practices, and or morals. I see so much complaining about before a child is burn, yet NOTHING after. "If life is so important" Then why are people not advocating for homeless, parentless children? Such as those in foster care, or wards of the state. To me it seems that once born its more than fine to just throw them away, oh but lets throw a fit and cause problems before. Its hypocritical. I'm not trying to insult or disrespect anyone, or force my views on others. I am simply stating facts. If you do not like abortion, well don't get one. However, do not think you actually have a right to control another woman's reproductive and medical choice rights. Instead of complaining about abortion and flaming by throwing out pics, fight to get proper sexual education in schools. Fight to have contraception given out. And giving it out, is NOT saying I support you to have sex, its saying I know you are going to do this either way. I would rather you know the repercustions, the consenquences and be responsible. Then, there wuld not be so many abortion issues to whine about. Its all as simple as that, like it or not.

[Sonja]

i believe there is no such thing as an unwanted child. I my self may have trouble becomign preg and having children of my own. i have also had friend that are unable to have children. Many have said they would like to adopt. I also have friends that have been adopted. The biggest trouble is the expense. I can understand why so expensive however kinda doesnt make since because then you have the cost of raising the child. But Like i said NO UNWANTED CHILDREN. abuse happend out side of unwanted children.

Really? No such thing as unwanted children? Then you live a very sheltered life. Because there are so many unwanted children. Its why the foster care system is so overloaded because all of those children were so wanted. In case you missed it, I am being very sarcastic because that is pure nonsense. There are many unwanted children, you need to open your eyes.

[darkeyes]

Really? No such thing as unwanted children? Then you live a very sheltered life. Because there are so many unwanted children. Its why the foster care system is so overloaded because all of those children were so wanted. In case you missed it, I am being very sarcastic because that is pure nonsense. There are many unwanted children, you need to open your eyes.



If I were u I would keep me eyes peeled for the heavy brigade... u suggest very dangerous things in their eyes.. have control over ur own body? Perish the thought...

..and ur right of course.. there are hundreds of thousands of unwanted, unloved and wretched children as the social care system shows, and worse, living on the streets for one reason or other... what prospective adoptive parents usually want is a baby, not a child with a few years under her or his belt and who knows what baggage.. and babies of course do grow up and some adoptive parents end up with just such a one and they too reject just such a one who either ends up in care or on the streets.. we are human and mostly we love our children and do what is best for them.. but being human we all have the frailties and flaws of the human being.. some are naturally gifted parents, some struggle through but all is ok in the end.. they learn.. some do not and it becomes too much.. some becomes abusers in one way or other, and some reject their child...

Parenting does not come with a ready made handbook..every child is different and it is a difficult task for anyone.. ... women who opt for an abortion do so because it is or they believe it is the best option for them..they have fears and there are risks to health both mental and physical.. they are not and should not remain pregnant just to fulfill the wishes of childless couples who may or may not make good loving parents.... and they certainly should not be forced to carry to term for that or any other reason save that they themselves wish it so..

A well educated population reduces but will never eliminate the need for abortion for there shall always be a need for some to occur.. but as the more liberal and better sexually educated countries of northern Europe show, the numbers will be far reduced compared to the angst ridden anglo saxon nations, where sex education is patchy, confused, and even conflicting at best; often almost non existent save for the myth instilled in the young by bad parenting and we can never dismiss the travesty of the irresponsible teachings of the Roman Catholic Church on the issue of contraception..