It’s a girl: The three deadliest words in the world

[æonpax]

It’s a girl, a film being released this year, documents the practice of killing unwanted baby girls in South Asia. The trailer’s most chilling scene is one with an Indian woman who, unable to contain her laughter, confesses to having killed eight infant daughters.

The statistics are sickening. The UN reports approximately 200 million girls in the world today are ‘missing’. India and China are said to eliminate more female infants than the number of girls born in the US each year. Lianyungang in China has the worst infant gender ratio on record with 163 boys born for every 100 girls. Taiwan, South Korea and Pakistan are also countries in which unwanted female babies are aborted, killed or abandoned. – source: http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/01/16/it%E2%80%99s-a-girl-the-three-deadliest-words-in-the-world/ (Related – my note > warning, anyone with even a sliver conscience will be repulsed, viewing the 12 minute film; http://mediastorm.com/publication/undesired

This is only part of the three pronged attack against females in this world, the other two being woman/child sexual slavery and the secular/religious abuse of females. However, this is by far the most malignant and bloodthirsty.

At the root of this problem is the tradition of carrying the so-called family name by the male. It is such an ingrained and archaic custom, it is also found in the western world and its legal system. Along with that, is another primitive custom; the dowry, albeit no longer practiced in the west. So strong are these codes of behavior, that females, en masse, are getting murdered by the millions in China, India and Africa.

As the main film suggests, The inhuman irony of this femicide, is that it is an evil perpetrated against girls by women. Indoctrinated at birth by men, it is the duty of women in these cultures, to conduct this murderous ritual while leaving the mans hands, unbloodied .

This kind of female genocide is a malaise that must be eradicated from the face of this earth.

[tenni]

I agree that it does seem shocking that a mother would kill eight female infants due to the lack of value placed on females.

I am reminded also of what our thoughts are based on. My reaction is based on the "attitude" of my culture that each life is of value and significance. I am reminded of a radio discussion many years back that brought forth a key difference between the "West" and "East" such as China and India etc. values. The author was of Chinese heritage but Western born and encultured. She stated that a key value difference was how a single life is valued. In China, there are so many people that an individual life does not hold the same value as other aspects. Now, this is very difficult for me to get my mind to accept. It is a cultural difference of significant difference.

There are always reasons why a certain attitude exists and differs from culture to culture. We, in the West, place more value on the individual life. In some cultures the survival of the parent depends upon the potential of the infant to support the parent in their later years when they may not be able to provide food etc. for themselves.

Well, that is my take on one aspect that you raise. That is not to say that in our culture that we should not continue to examine our cultural values and other values. That doesn't mean that women should not continue to alter perceptions just as any discriminated group should not work towards presenting themselves as of equal value to another group whether it is gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age, etc.

It does also mean that we need to continually re examine why/how we come to develop differences of opinions and attitudes. Which is more correct an Eastern attitude towards the individual or a Western attitude? Of course, we in the West say that we are correct.

Recently as Monday, I became aware of a genocide dealing with the ethnic group "Pigmy" in Africa. A documentary is being developed about the killings of Pigmies by the Hitu(I think) during a period back several years ago. I think that the numbers of Pigmies were reduced by seventy percent within a few years do to the slaughter of Pigmies.

Which "issue" will I give more support to? I gave my support to the creation, research and development of a documentary about this Pigmy genocide by voting in a certain positive way on a board of directors that I sit on. This will enable the research needed for the documentary to go forward with a sum of money (too complicated and detailed to explain further). Who knew about Pigmy genocide on this site before I printed this information? I don't know. What will they do about it? I don't know.

Good for you Aeonpax for reminding me of the treatment of females compared to the treatment of males. What do you suggest that I and others do for your cause and concern?

[Gearbox]

This is only part of the three pronged attack against females in this world, the other two being woman/child sexual slavery and the secular/religious abuse of females.
:eek: There's not actually a war going on between m&f's. But it IS pretty obvious that females get the rough edge of the equality sick though.
Fek knows why any female goes to church to hear how shit they are, even shitter than the males, and THAT'S some heavy duty shit right there!.:rolleyes:

I heard how in Africa that m&f's produce as many babies as they can, so at least 1 or 2 might survive. That's in places where famine and disease are rife, so it's not a case of bringing a child into the world to enjoy it. It's to maintain the linage. In S.Asia producing children has a similar reason (I'm guessing).
The West however, producing children has a very different reason (usually). We are taught that having a child is a blessing to nurture and love, and not a practical investment. It's obviously NOT a financial investment, but more of an emotional extension!

It might sicken you, but had you been born in place of that baby girl killing S.Asian, you'd probably have the same views about baby girls.
That's pretty uncomfortable.:(
To us it's a sickeningly 'evil' practice that has no justifiable excuse. But to them it's ok.

It's a culture war. If Humans were bereft of culture, a culture would arise. That culture, no matter what it held as 'good'&'evil' would be 'true'.
But there will always be usurpers. Those who claim "This is bullshit! It's wrong! You should see it as wrong, and this as right!".
That is vital to the evolution of culture.


This kind of female genocide is a malaise that must be eradicated from the face of this earth.
Your starting a 'religion'.;)
I'd join that one btw, as I already worship at that alter.:)

[12voltman59]

While the populations of places like China and India are booming----they are already finding that due to things like either government policies in China limiting couples to one legal child and their cultural preference to have sons over daughters and in India with sons being favored and female babies being killed--they are finding that many men in both places are having trouble finding suitable female partners and researchers say the situation is going to get worse over time--it does threaten the long term stability and ultimately the viability of their societies.

Here is a link to a very interesting radio program on the topic:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/06/08/gender-selection

[darkeyes]

..am sayin nowt bout this at present...æon knows wy... u lot may find out in time...;)

[æonpax]

I agree that it does seem shocking that a mother would kill eight female infants due to the lack of value placed on females.
{snipped for brevity}


Infanticide is actually illegal in China, India and the African countries. The major religions in Indo-China; Hinduism, Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism, do not advocate nor allow this either. This practice, is solely a product of human minds and is based, sadly enough, on economics. The dramatic upswing in female infanticide, in China, is their draconian “one child policy” which is specifically to blame there. In India, the causes are a bit more complex but again can be linked to the governments population control problems. In most cases, this kind of activity takes place mainly in rural areas and amongst uneducated people. I should add that is not a problem in countries such as Japan, South Korea and the Philippines, where the populace tends to be more urban and educated.

What to do is a sticky problem. While the UN and other human rights organizations are doing what they can, it is not near enough. Politically, the US has only given token attention to this problems while the corporations, many of which are based in these rural areas, act as if this problem doesn’t exist. The biggest nut to crack is the pervasive attitude of male superiority.

Personally, I’ve stopped shopping at stores that get the bulk of their goods from China and India, such as Walmart, though I’m afraid most everything we buy now a days is no longer made in the US. I support organizations like Amnesty International and will occasionally write my congressman. It will take the efforts of both the politics and the business community to stop this…one sure way is through is education.

[æonpax]

:eek: There's not actually a war going on between m&f's. But it IS pretty obvious that females get the rough edge of the equality sick though.
Fek knows why any female goes to church to hear how shit they are, even shitter than the males, and THAT'S some heavy duty shit right there!.:rolleyes:
I heard how in Africa that m&f's produce as many babies as they can, so at least 1 or 2 might survive. That's in places where famine and disease are rife, so it's not a case of bringing a child into the world to enjoy it. It's to maintain the linage. In S.Asia producing children has a similar reason (I'm guessing).
The West however, producing children has a very different reason (usually). We are taught that having a child is a blessing to nurture and love, and not a practical investment. It's obviously NOT a financial investment, but more of an emotional extension!
It might sicken you, but had you been born in place of that baby girl killing S.Asian, you'd probably have the same views about baby girls.
That's pretty uncomfortable.:(
To us it's a sickeningly 'evil' practice that has no justifiable excuse. But to them it's ok.
It's a culture war. If Humans were bereft of culture, a culture would arise. That culture, no matter what it held as 'good'&'evil' would be 'true'.
But there will always be usurpers. Those who claim "This is bullshit! It's wrong! You should see it as wrong, and this as right!".
That is vital to the evolution of culture.
Your starting a 'religion'.;)
I'd join that one btw, as I already worship at that alter.:)

You brought up a good point, one that I skirted around and that's Rational Morality vs Natural Law, the former being morality as being a product of human intellect or the latter, an absolute morality being a part of a universal order or a supreme divinity.

I believe murder is "Malum in se" or being wrong or evil of itself and would fit into Natural Law. So infanticide would be, to me, murder, regardless of the traditions of any culture.

My spiritual beliefs tend to be eclectic but the "Golden Rule" basically covers it.

[Hephaestion]

1) The thing missing from the horrendous story is that of Sati where wife throws herself on the funeral pyre of her husband because she may feel duty and / or is not wanted by the rest of the famliy. This concept of abandonment is shared amongst many peoples around the world including native American indians. In contrast, Heather Mills McCartney moaned that she was only being offered £30million in a divorce.

2) For a nation with the atomic bomb and so many scientists, how is it that it has escaped their notice and education that the gender of a child is determined by the man's gametes. This put the understanding of the Asian / Indian subcontinent societies at the level of Henry VIII i.e. ca 1500 AD

3) There are other abhorrent practices which have been dealt with elsewhere on this site but are thankfully not common to Indian subcontinent societies.

[Moonlight_BHI]

Yes, female infants are of lesser value in certain countries and males are of higher value. I don't like it but what can we really do about, throw a fit about it and say "Hey, you can't do that cause we're just as valuable as men!"
No we can't cause from what I have heard and seen, we will "never" measure up cause we do not pass on family names, men "create" child (we just hold them for 9 months and birth them.), we cannot do the same amount of work as men and we are just buckets of sugar and hormones.

It is truly horrible that female infants are killed only cause they are female and not male.
But honestly what are you going to do?

[Light_and_Dark]

Sorry but yes the 1 child law is to try and curb birth rate....so many children die(illegally) because other then in exceptional cases it is a son that would be able to support mind you I am not saying that women CANT work on equal footing with a man but the average woman typically can not keep up in the supporting aspects as the average man.

The family views the continuation of the line(which does fall in line with the children being decided as part of the mans gametes which is why men carry the family line). Along with their version of a retirement package(ie an heir that can take care of them in society and with finances once they are to old to work) are the primary reasons behind this.

On another note regarding the radio broadcast the reason se asian men are having trouble finding suitable mates is because more and more chinese females are becoming more interested in the western culture...they actually breed more women then men in china....Just a bit of knowledge to foreshadow the automatic man hate that comes with this post..

LOL

[IanBorthwick]

[SIZE="4"]As the main film suggests, The inhuman irony of this femicide, is that it is an evil perpetrated against girls by women. Indoctrinated at birth by men, it is the duty of women in these cultures, to conduct this murderous ritual while leaving the mans hands, unbloodied .
/SIZE]

And you started off so well that the ending, which I could foresee long before you got there, was going to be the Good Old Feminist double speak of:

"It's not the woman, it's the man! Behind it all are the EVIL men! They are such cowards they can't being themselves to do it!"

Which is, of course, not how men operate unless it's convenient to women to say so..or reverse their opinion on w him to cast more blame away from the "Sacred Vagina" to give a pussy pass to the female again. The downside to all this is how much bullshit you have to swallow just to accept this point of view, that somehow it's always male culpibility. And the "Man passing on his name" bullshit is just that, bullshit! It only works that way in European based cultures, not eastern ones. So this stigma of female children is a blindsided attempt to make it look like men somehow put that idea in the females heads and ram it home with a point, because women, who are supposedly so equal to men, are simultaneously weak and childlike, yet not weak and childlike when Feminists say, ad nauseum.

This would have been MUCH better had you left it as what it was..a tragic murdering of girls by WOMEN! Accept your place in the world as equal in violence to men or better and the stop using proxies and excuses.

[pepperjack]

:eek: There's not actually a war going on between m&f's. But it IS pretty obvious that females get the rough edge of the equality sick though.
Fek knows why any female goes to church to hear how shit they are, even shitter than the males, and THAT'S some heavy duty shit right there!.:rolleyes:

I heard how in Africa that m&f's produce as many babies as they can, so at least 1 or 2 might survive. That's in places where famine and disease are rife, so it's not a case of bringing a child into the world to enjoy it. It's to maintain the linage. In S.Asia producing children has a similar reason (I'm guessing).
The West however, producing children has a very different reason (usually). We are taught that having a child is a blessing to nurture and love, and not a practical investment. It's obviously NOT a financial investment, but more of an emotional extension!

It might sicken you, but had you been born in place of that baby girl killing S.Asian, you'd probably have the same views about baby girls.
That's pretty uncomfortable.:(
To us it's a sickeningly 'evil' practice that has no justifiable excuse. But to them it's ok.

It's a culture war. If Humans were bereft of culture, a culture would arise. That culture, no matter what it held as 'good'&'evil' would be 'true'.
But there will always be usurpers. Those who claim "This is bullshit! It's wrong! You should see it as wrong, and this as right!".
That is vital to the evolution of culture.


Your starting a 'religion'.;)
I'd join that one btw, as I already worship at that alter.:)

OK, I finally got it, figured out why people are so fond of calling each other shit these days; because church makes them feel that way & laden with shit, especially women. Gear... you're likable & entertaining but apparently have never read the Bible, especially The Song of Solomon.:rolleyes:

[æonpax]

And you started off so well that the ending, which I could foresee long before you got there, was going to be the Good Old Feminist double speak of:

"It's not the woman, it's the man! Behind it all are the EVIL men! They are such cowards they can't being themselves to do it!"

Which is, of course, not how men operate unless it's convenient to women to say so..or reverse their opinion on w him to cast more blame away from the "Sacred Vagina" to give a pussy pass to the female again. The downside to all this is how much bullshit you have to swallow just to accept this point of view, that somehow it's always male culpibility. And the "Man passing on his name" bullshit is just that, bullshit! It only works that way in European based cultures, not eastern ones. So this stigma of female children is a blindsided attempt to make it look like men somehow put that idea in the females heads and ram it home with a point, because women, who are supposedly so equal to men, are simultaneously weak and childlike, yet not weak and childlike when Feminists say, ad nauseum.

This would have been MUCH better had you left it as what it was..a tragic murdering of girls by WOMEN! Accept your place in the world as equal in violence to men or better and the stop using proxies and excuses.

Interesting comment as neither the film, article or myself said or implied anything of the sort. To say men "indoctrinate" (my word) or otherwise teach woman in that culture to perform the duty I described, is merely stating a fact. My accentuation on men avoiding this "bloody" act, may be a metaphor you don't like, but heh, that's the way it is.

I tried to keep my comments nonjudgmental as far as the male part in all of this as I anticipated a response similar to yours and wanted to avoid the useless argument of male vs female. Your inclusion of my concern over the plight of female infants, being some kind of feminist mindset, to be honest, is sort of laughable, I'm afraid, considering that up until about 200 years ago, all females were still considered second class and subservient to males. You sound a bit like one of Limbaughs people.

Your comment also serves to remind me, women still have a long way to go to gain equality with men. Just today, one of Rick Santorum's staffers sent out an email stating, "Women shouldn’t be president because it’s against God’s will." ( http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/01/17/402438/santorum-staffer-says-women-shouldnt-be-president-because-its-against-gods-will/?mobile=nc ) Scary stuff.

While I appreciate your opinion, your response is off-topic and indicative of a guy who has an ax to grind with females. Furthermore, you utterly fail to make a logical or reasonable case but instead rely on your own bias for an objection, without any qualification.

What you need sir, are more facts on the topic of female infanticide, such as http://infanticide.org/history.htm or this, http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html before you continue on with your rant.

[elian]

While the populations of places like China and India are booming----they are already finding that due to things like either government policies in China limiting couples to one legal child and their cultural preference to have sons over daughters and in India with sons being favored and female babies being killed--they are finding that many men in both places are having trouble finding suitable female partners and researchers say the situation is going to get worse over time--it does threaten the long term stability and ultimately the viability of their societies.

Here is a link to a very interesting radio program on the topic:

http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/06/08/gender-selection

Yeah, all those horny guys without any females.... Err... wait, what were we talking about?

The cultural differences are very frustrating..and it's shameful that an otherwise innocent being has to suffer for being born the "wrong" way..that's all I can really say about it.

There are many archaic practices that people still adhere to, but I don't want to get into another debate about removal of clitoris and foreskin so..

[Hephaestion]

Don't see this thread as man hate, intentional or otherwise..

If the people with the power are men then automatically it is at the feet of the men that this problem largely lays. To be fair, men are adjusting. However, culture and tradition are leviathans with an inertia that changes only slowly until the flip point occurs.

Population levels is an affected argument but one which should be treated separately with its own importance.

[Gearbox]

OK, I finally got it, figured out why people are so fond of calling each other shit these days; because church makes them feel that way & laden with shit, especially women. Gear... you're likable & entertaining but apparently have never read the Bible, especially The Song of Solomon.
Sorry. That was supposed to be an example of 'Different' perspectives, and not 'right' or 'wrong' ones. From my perspective the Bible&Qur'an are very different to those who see them as 'good'.
Obviously it's just a matter of perspective or there would be just one religion, one set of 'moral', one 'God', one of everything.:)

Wikepedia is currently on a 24hr blackout to protest against American bills that 'attack free expression' which effect 'foreign' lands too.
One 'good' against another 'good'?:tongue:

[æonpax]

Sorry but yes the 1 child law is to try and curb birth rate....so many children die(illegally) because other then in exceptional cases it is a son that would be able to support mind you I am not saying that women CANT work on equal footing with a man but the average woman typically can not keep up in the supporting aspects as the average man.

The family views the continuation of the line(which does fall in line with the children being decided as part of the mans gametes which is why men carry the family line). Along with their version of a retirement package(ie an heir that can take care of them in society and with finances once they are to old to work) are the primary reasons behind this.

1) On another note regarding the radio broadcast the reason se asian men are having trouble finding suitable mates is because more and more chinese females are becoming more interested in the western culture...they actually breed more women then men in china....Just a bit of knowledge to foreshadow the automatic man hate that comes with this post..
LOL

Another interesting post with an ax to grind and as usual, no facts to back it up. Your post was terrible and whiny sir, full of innuendo and stuff you obviously made up. You've given me way so much material to factually refute, it's like shooting fish in a barrel plus I don't know where to start so I'll just start with 1).



a) The areas in question for female infanticide are China and India, not SE Asia. Get with it.

b) The ratio of live births in China are about 100 females for every 130 males. - http://news.discovery.com/human/china-birth-rate-single-men.html

c) The fact that counties like Japan, South Korea and the Philippines have roughly equal gender birth rates is because of education (which is gained in urban areas) and their use of something called "birth control". If you want to argue that birth control is Western, have at it but that is not the topic of my post.

d) Man Hate? Where in the name of creation did you pull that gem out of? The fact that the men whom are uneducated and are part of the problem in that specific portion of the world is NOT an indictment of men everywhere, nor does any of the language even suggest hate. Do you feel guilty for something?

d) I have no idea where you come up with the rest of your schmeel although I'd be more than grateful if you could post a source for your so-called facts. If I can be proven wrong, I'll admit it but I will not take your word for anything.

One of the things you absolutely overlooked in your haste to play the victim role, is that women there are just as culpable as men for this female infanticide. However, they have been sub-servant to the cultural customs of patriarchal superiority for thousands of years and know of no other way of life. Education, as I stated, for both men and women would be a good start to put an end to this kind of heinous murder of infant females.

[darkeyes]

Will say one thing.. I didnt expect (some) western men's fantasies, delusions and insecurities to raise its ugly head on this thread.. soon as I saw Ian's name I knew it had 2 b..... funny how things get twisted round in a thread.. keep it up æon, ya's doin just brill...:)

[Light_and_Dark]

Another interesting post with an ax to grind and as usual, no facts to back it up. Your post was terrible and whiny sir, full of innuendo and stuff you obviously made up. You've given me way so much material to factually refute, it's like shooting fish in a barrel plus I don't know where to start so I'll just start with 1).



a) The areas in question for female infanticide are China and India, not SE Asia. Get with it.

b) The ratio of live births in China are about 100 females for every 130 males. - http://news.discovery.com/human/china-birth-rate-single-men.html

c) The fact that counties like Japan, South Korea and the Philippines have roughly equal gender birth rates is because of education (which is gained in urban areas) and their use of something called "birth control". If you want to argue that birth control is Western, have at it but that is not the topic of my post.

d) Man Hate? Where in the name of creation did you pull that gem out of? The fact that the men whom are uneducated and are part of the problem in that specific portion of the world is NOT an indictment of men everywhere, nor does any of the language even suggest hate. Do you feel guilty for something?

d) I have no idea where you come up with the rest of your schmeel although I'd be more than grateful if you could post a source for your so-called facts. If I can be proven wrong, I'll admit it but I will not take your word for anything.

One of the things you absolutely overlooked in your haste to play the victim role, is that women there are just as culpable as men for this female infanticide. However, they have been sub-servant to the cultural customs of patriarchal superiority for thousands of years and know of no other way of life. Education, as I stated, for both men and women would be a good start to put an end to this kind of heinous murder of infant females.

Nope no axe to grind...and yes it is so obviously made up yet your own stupidity bears no part in my argument hmm...Last i checked china and india are IN se asia....if i dont want to spend the extra 2 seconds distinguishing the two that is my right and your ignorance for not looking at a map. Though india and china are the primary locations this is occurring there are a few small countries surrounding that area with the same situation.

When china and india refer to live births in their statistics they do not include the as your original post said "who, unable to contain her laughter, confesses to having killed eight infant daughters.". Those are NOT included in the general live birth statistics...when you revamp those statistics the balance flips in the other direction.

I already know bc is not a western concept and happens to be a far older tool that humanity has used then most give it credit.

Again I find myself dazzled by your inability to read so before we go any further arguing go back and do more then skim my post. I did not state that your post was man hate merely stated that man hate will generate FROM the post if some of your accusations were not addressed. So again READ BEFORE YOU OPEN YOUR MOUTH.

The fact that you dont understand things like how men technically determine the sex of the baby and the fact that the AVERAGE man can work harder and longer then the AVERAGE woman and is designed for it shows either you are physically an above average woman surrounded by a society of freakishly above average women(would be an interesting place). Or you do not understand the concept...

I understand women deserve to be treated with respect and given the same rights as men but to state that they could take care of the family in the way most poor people need in areas like china is to state that the daughter will turn into an above average woman....Now I have met some above average women that can keep up...Was proud to serve with them...but in those areas taking the risk of an average or below average daughter is not a risk most poor families would choose to take..For their culture it seems right because it is how they survive into old age...

That is all I am going to say on it for now but if you have any questions and not any random drooling comments to make feel free to message me or reply if you want something clarified.

LOL

[æonpax]

[Nope no axe to grind...and yes it is so obviously made up yet your own stupidity bears no part in my argument hmm...{snipped for brevity}[/SIZE]


Wow, apparently you have some major problems, not totally unexpected, but still.... For starters and aside from your lack of facts, none of your unintelligent rant has anything to do with the topic. You need to calm down son. Your post reeks of excess testosterone. Come back when you can at least be civil, ok?



http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1183/lfg2.jpg

[æonpax]

Will say one thing.. I didnt expect (some) western men's fantasies, delusions and insecurities to raise its ugly head on this thread.. soon as I saw Ian's name I knew it had 2 b..... funny how things get twisted round in a thread.. keep it up æon, ya's doin just brill...:)

The word "psychopathic" comes to mind, but I'm not qualified to use it. Too much acrimony and hubris, I'll say that. It's just too bad a serious topic like this has to be maligned by one or two malcontents. Que Sera, Sera.

[IanBorthwick]

[FONT="Book Antiqua"]
Wow, apparently you have some major problems, not totally unexpected, but still.... For starters and aside from your lack of facts, none of your unintelligent rant has anything to do with the topic. You need to calm down son. Your post reeks of excess testosterone. Come back when you can at least be civil, ok?

What's saddest? You give YOURSELF the pussy pass and excuse your own mental gyrations and avoidance while castigating others for what you are doing.

Projection is a bitch.

Ignorance is catchy.

Take it away with you like the stink of Feminist Supremacy.

All you talk is your opinion, zero facts behind, when the facts are argued your word is they are not facts...when your own words are used against you, they are not cogent... What's saddest is you do not see how your own words about you, from the ass backwards, tells us you think you are not relevant.

Yeah, yeah...tell me how that's "Man's Logic" while you pray for attack dogs to back you up on your "Points"(read strawman and if not then Epic Failure) with their Feminist talking points. The fact is that it's horrible in the third world countries...FOR ALL people. Focusing on women is a pity plea that is as invalid as your unbacked opinions. When women die at the rate MEN do around the world and don't outnumber men then we'll start considering treating them as an endangered species. But you can't change the facts with pleas to emotion your Gender Feminism wants to say are unnnecessary!

Why does a group that outnumbers men, and supposedly as strong, smart,(fill in the blank) as men need specialized protection? They don't.

Why don't the numbers of female deaths equal those of men...feminists could give a rat shit.

Why don't women commit suicide as much as men? Who cares, they are men!

Why do you have to focus into ONE cultural area to show SO many female infant deaths? Because in all the others, especially where Male Genital Mutilation is allowed, baby boy deaths are significantly HIGHER.

Pleas for attention are calls to White Knights and Manginas to stand up and take the drubbing for women, because in al cultures the Male Disposability factor gets men dead in the honor of female protection.

Fact is, I am sorry any child ends up dead for callous reasons of any kind. But I'll just have to leave the gynocentric fiddle faddle to you and your ilk. The well of sympathy here is running dry in the face of real numbers and real facts about how men are suffering to make the world better for you, and it's still not good enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9G9AAhlMo4&feature=context&context=G28d973dFAAAAAAAAIAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gekyg7yy4Dc&feature=related

When you're done with those, which are BTW done by a WOMAN who is also a mother, I'll link more if you have the courage to look where your dogmatic acceptance of the mythical patriarchy DARE not let you look.

To steal a line from Frank Herbert,"Look at that place..the one you dare not look and you will fine ME there staring back at you!"

[keefer728]

Ian, do what most have done, put her on ignore. She wants everyone to believe that she's this segacious minx, but her posts are part of the total dysfunction she lives in. Whenever I see her put something up, I am reminded of the sophistry she trades in and the true pedantic nature of her. Not to mention, she's just nasty.

[darkeyes]

Ok hold on a minute... now you go too far... in the first instance you demean by your distractions and trivial deviations what is a massive problem faced by Indian society and most of all every year thousands upon thousands of baby girls.. these undignified attacks are specifically designed to ridicule one person who at least cares about what is an awful problem and attempted to draw it to your attention.. you dont give two hoots about the deaths of these children or if u do u have a very funny way of showing it.... I am sorry that they are mere girls but the fact is that it is to girls that this cultural abomination is committed. To deviate from the issue on hand with the specific purpose of attacking an individual proves to me that many of you would rather score petty points than care for and address an appaling crime against humanity... I apologise for the fact that no one is able to deliver a wholesale slaughter of young boys for cultural purposes.. Ive no doubt there would be a quite different attitude from the misogynists among u were that the case...

There have been frequent discussions on both male and female genital mutilation since that subject has raised its head... I have always argued against male circumcision for any purpose save medical without the express permission and informed consent of the person involved which means that infant circumcision should never be done other than for the reason of medical need... and have been roundly condemned and attacked and criticised by many on this site for it... children suffer around the world, children of both genders... male children often suffer appallingly but it is girls who suffer the greater tribulations.in greater numbers...the fact is no child should suffer.. no child should be forced into slavery or to pick up arms in pursuit of a cause of which they know nothing, or be deprived of education or employment opportunity.. and certainly should not be killed or left to die simply because of their gender...no child should be circumcised irrespective of gender without their informed consent and without undue pressure by culture, religion or family...no child should be forced into slavery or prostitution irrespective of gender... all abuse of all children is an abomination.. not simply one gender or other.. but the thread is about one issue... that of the killing of infant girls... we often discuss a single issue.. and we shall again.. and it is quite right that this should be so.. so a bit of growing up is needed and little bit more coompassion not for the OP or me or anayone else here... but for the thousands upon thousands of children, young girls who are left to die or deliberately killed every year in one part of the world...

As stated.. I argue and always have in opposition to infant male circumcision..because that is an issue which involves young boys and is an imposition upon his person about which he has no say... similarly, although linked, as a separate issue I argue against female circumcision for similar reasons although not exactly the same reasons. I argue against the kidnapping of children, boys mostly but not entirely, who are forced into fighting and dying for the warlords of Africa.. and I argue against killing female children because they are not male.. human issues.. human wrongs.. gender is irrelevant.. they are wrong because each involves an savage acts against children...

The killing of female children is not a feminist issue nor is it a female issue.. it is a wrong inflicted upon the female children of one country..it is a human issue and we should show those children far more respect than some of you are displaying.. no issue which involves removing from a child its human right to life or to live free and unmolested is an issue about which we should take sides along gender lines.. the only side we should be on is the side of the children of the world... by doing other as has been displayed in this thread, you insult those children and you insult your own humaniity and you make me ashamed of the species into which I was born... by fighting your own petty misogynistic battles you display your own lack of humanity...

[Light_and_Dark]

Darkeyes I do understand what you are saying...and it is a sad thing...something that probably wont be stopped in our life times for said reasons it is going on...I was not attacking the REASON for the post only the manner in which aeon posted it. The way the original post reads is a jab, barb or weapon to stir strife.

What happens their is wrong by our standards as children are a valuable asset in and of themselves..About the circumcision I do agree with male circumcision at a childhood age because getting it done later in life(it is a healthier way to be) is much more difficult and can be much more painful.

Again the loss of the daughters is sad but for their culture currently a necessity in their eyes.

[æonpax]

Ok hold on a minute... now you go too far... in the first instance you demean by your distractions and trivial deviations what is a massive problem faced by Indian society and most of all every year thousands upon thousands of baby girls..{snipped fpr brevity}

Fran,

It doesn't take much to rattle the misogynistic cage, such a shame though. There is a phrase that covers this malaise, it's called " Epistemic closure" - http://issuepedia.org/Epistemic_closure It all boils down to people who actually look to be offended and they seek out the victim role and play it to the hilt. They will only accept information that conforms to their ideological reality. It's not a rational way of thinking.

Their reality is defined by an array of interconnected and cross promoting idealism's. Whatever conflicts with that reality can be dismissed out of hand because, in this case, it comes from a female, and is therefore ipso facto not to be trusted.

Taken at face value, my post about female infanticide was benign, maybe a tad bit hyperbolic but their reaction and fury is absolutely disproportionate to any perceived slight. One can almost imagine the spittle coming from their mouths when they post.

If there is any good news in all of this, it's such beliefs are basically confined to the over 55 bunch. Younger generation males aren't anywhere near as closed minded and victim seeking as this crew.

[keefer728]

As stated.. I argue and always have in opposition to infant male circumcision..because that is an issue which involves young boys and is an imposition upon his person about which he has no say... similarly, although linked, as a separate issue I argue against female circumcision for similar reasons although not exactly the same reasons. I argue against the kidnapping of children, boys mostly but not entirely, who are forced into fighting and dying for the warlords of Africa.. and I argue against killing female children because they are not male.. human issues.. human wrongs.. gender is irrelevant.. they are wrong because each involves an savage acts against children...

I don't want to fan any flames here, but I am guessing that you are pro choice...meaning the intentional killing of a yet born child. Do you see the error in your logic here, Fran?

[keefer728]

It doesn't take much to rattle the misogynistic cage, such a shame though. There is a phrase that covers this malaise, it's called " Epistemic closure" - http://issuepedia.org/Epistemic_closure It all boils down to people who actually look to be offended and they seek out the victim role and play it to the hilt. They will only accept information that conforms to their ideological reality. It's not a rational way of thinking.

I find that hilarious. You just painted yourself with that term.

[darkeyes]

There is no barb in æon's post, only a sad acceptance of what the world is like and a desire that it be changed.. in the west we have made huge progress in the last half century and more toward achieving equality of the sexes and yet a huge amount still needs to be done, both within the legal system where technically at least if not in reality equality is enshrined in law and society as a whole... if that is the comment which is the cause of such a furore then it happens I agree with her absolutely.. women are not yet culturally accepted as equals to men in so many areas of education, of employment, of political representation and sexism and misogyny are still rife... in your country and in mine... getting better but not yet there are we? And myth and falsehood peddled by insecure men of which there remain far too many in both our societies hold back the progress we make and would reverse it if they could.... It is interesting is it not that the worst effects of cuts due to government policy in the UK at least to combat recession have fallen on women right across the board and it is they who are suffering the largest cut in living standards, education opportunities and in employment.. we live currently with a government which is in large part misogynist... back to the kitchen sink we go... yea.. right sure we do... but there are those in society who are laughing up their sleeve at this..and quite a few are members of this site...

Things are worse in other countries for women or should I say females as the issue of the killing of baby girls in India shows... it is not unknown in China in fact, certainly not in rural areas, for much the same cultural reasons as exists in India.. it is both heartless and cruel and the west should be moving heaven and earth in persuading the Indian government to do more to stamp it out including providing practical support.. it is illegal as it happens, but India has never addressed the matter anywhere near adequately and has never provided the education or the resources to begin the process of its elimination...the fact that many women are cast off and sometimes themselves killed by their husbands for not producing male children is an additional act of cultural barbarity especially as you quite rightly point out, just which gender is responsible for the determining the sex of a child.. I doubt æon is unaware of that.

As India becomes one of the great modern economic powerhouses of the world and becomes richer it increasingly lacks the excuse of national poverty for inaction.. it is no longer a poor country in the sense that it was a few decades ago... it still has massive poverty in towns and cities as well as the countryside but it now has resources undreamt of a few decades ago to really being to deal with issues such as the killing of its children.. education is the key, and both government and the great religions of the country have to get to grips with things and begin to seriously tackle the problem by ensuring that the old myths are discredited and discarded... and that Indians, like all human beings should, respect human life absolutely no matter gender... that a female child can grow and be every bit as valuable a resource to family, her community, her country and humanity as her brother..

[darkeyes]

As stated.. I argue and always have in opposition to infant male circumcision..because that is an issue which involves young boys and is an imposition upon his person about which he has no say... similarly, although linked, as a separate issue I argue against female circumcision for similar reasons although not exactly the same reasons. I argue against the kidnapping of children, boys mostly but not entirely, who are forced into fighting and dying for the warlords of Africa.. and I argue against killing female children because they are not male.. human issues.. human wrongs.. gender is irrelevant.. they are wrong because each involves an savage acts against children...

I don't want to fan any flames here, but I am guessing that you are pro choice...meaning the intentional killing of a yet born child. Do you see the error in your logic here, Fran?

I recently made my position clear on abortion keefer if u care to look it up... there is no error in my logic whatsoever, nor is there contradiction..... the circumstances of aborting a feotus and killing a child once she (or he) haas been born are not the same...

[pepperjack]

She's such an obvious demagogue & at times a very effective chameleon, but after awhile , you can't help but notice just about every word she posts is all about HER exaltation.:cool:

[IanBorthwick]

It doesn't take much to rattle the misogynistic cage, such a shame though. There is a phrase that covers this malaise, it's called " Epistemic closure" - http://issuepedia.org/Epistemic_closure It all boils down to people who actually look to be offended and they seek out the victim role and play it to the hilt. They will only accept information that conforms to their ideological reality. It's not a rational way of thinking.

I find that hilarious. You just painted yourself with that term.

AMAZING you should mention that! As well as quacking misogyny to people who aren't and suffer the Misandric fits of temper from Feminists and their supporters!

Thanks for the lead up, in fact!

The very BASIS of this entire article is to fly the feminist of "We're VICTIMS!" and that's a fact. The entire way feminism works is by playing up female good, male bad. That's misandry, amigo. Nothing else but. And because of the way it's swallowed by manginas like you and Hephaestion who see no ill in the contempt of women for men and the spin of "Women as Victim/Male as Opressor" keeps this crap going. Just because you won't see it doesn't make it go away.

In fact this latest appeal is "Woe to the Baby FEMALE Victims". I agree, woe to them and shame to the women who kill these babies. Shoulder your blame, you shallow fembots! But OH NO! No, we get the,"Put the blame where it belongs! On MEN!"

Crap! Utter crap! Isn't part of being equal taking responsibilities for your OWN actions? Last I checked it is! But instead of responsibility what we see is scapegoating to the mythical patriarchy and WOE are women again! Self-Victimhood, exactly as you fluffed out, and thanks again for proving my point.

Breast cancer...I'm a victim, help! SO we pay! And at a rate more than for ANY male problem!

I'm a rape victim! PAY! And we do, and deny the reality that men are the overwhelming majority or Rapes in the US. How is this not known? Cultural dogma, disgusting little phrases to hide it (forbidden love is one nauseating one and try lucky to have an OLDER woman is another) and just plain being taught that men should second themselves and MAN UP while women need to be protected A La Chivalric means. Sorry, with equal rights comes equal treatment, and you no longer deserve the added protection from manginas and white knights. If you need it or demand it, you are children. Pick a spot and stop chasing in whichever direction suits your mood and self-victimhood.

Male rape has been called “The most closely guarded secret of American prisons.” (Weiss and Friar 1974)

There are estimated to be over 300,000 male rapes per year in American prisons and jails.

Meanwhile A United Nations statistical report compiled from government sources showed that more than 250,000 cases of male-female rape or attempted rape were recorded by police annually. The reported data covered 65 countries.

According to the 2009 United States National Crime Victimization Survey estimates, only 55% of rapes and sexual assaults were reported to law enforcement officials. When a male is raped, less than 10% are believed to be reported. Female-male and female-female rape are ignored altogether in this survey.

Other facts regarding men and rape:

* 2.1% of men reported forced vaginal sex compared to 1.6% of women in a relationship in the previous year. From: Predictors of Sexual Coersion. http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf

*94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. From: Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf

* Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From: Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09. http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf

* 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a female. From: It’s Not What You Think: Sexually Exploited Youth in British Columbia. http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf

In REAL LIFE, ladies, men suffer the shit you won't do. From dangerous jobs to crap pay for backbreaking labor. But oh LOOK! They DID try to cover that up! The "Glass Ceiling" mythos! Amazing! Another self-victimhood!

The Truth:

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/the-gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs/

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/04/23/gender-feminist-wage-gap-myth-appears-to-be-growing-legs-part-ii/

While men make more money than women on average, women control and spend vastly more money than men.

http://www.amazon.com/Pocketbook-Power-Hearts-Coveted-Consumer/dp/0071418601/sr=1-1/qid=1167804358/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6478055-3977644?ie=UTF8&s=books

Women as an economically disadvantaged group is a myth that negatively affects men.

Not too long ago, legendary adman David Ogilvy chided his peers for talking down to women. He berated those who ignored women or discounted them, misconstruing men’s higher paychecks to mean greater spending clout. And he was right. According to the Bureau of Economic Analysis, women–who comprise just over 51 percent of the U.S. population, making them the largest consumer segment in the country–control six trillion dollars in buying power annually. Statistics show that:

Women make 88 percent of all U.S. retail purchases. Some experts even predict that, by 2020, women will control most of the money in America. And yet all we hear about is the Wage Gap.

So men do the jobs that are dangerous and don't complain...because we DIE so often!

Men are 94% of industrial deaths and accident (NIOSH)

Even though murder is the leading workplace cause of death for women, a statistic often used by gender feminists, that number is only a percentage of the 6% of workplace deaths that women comprise. In other words, a fraction of a small fraction.

One example:

Between 1890 and 1917, two hundred thirty thousand (230,000) [male] railroad workers were killed. One of the most dangerous jobs was “brakeman.” Each car had to be stopped manually and it was the brakeman’s job to stop four or five cars. The brakeman walked on top of the RR cars and turned a wheel, putting the brakes “on” for each car. It was not unheard of for a brakeman to be thrown from the top of a RR car.

But women bemoan and belittle and they are the victims, all the while THIS data is news to you and women are the true victims? Right! And last year workplace death toll for men dropped to 93% women began SCREAMING that this was unacceptable! That something had to be done to save the women! Al the while the reason the numbers for Men dropped is the fact that the recession reached full swing in 2010-2011 and the number of men WORKING dropped so the statistic was skewed!

Hey, brainiac....that's self victimizing right there!

Men are 99.999% of American combat deaths and casualties (historically)
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
http://thewall-usa.com/women.asp
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

97%+ since the 1st Gulf War (DOD)
http://www.icasualties.org/oif/female.aspx
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/other/stats/warcost.htm

“The numbers of wounded women and female amputees, meanwhile, are considerably less than their male counterparts–at least 378 wounded versus 17,490; 11 amputees versus over 400–but they are historic for modern day warfare.”
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

A Pentagon study published in March on the mental health of soldiers returning from deployment to Iraq and Afghanistan found that more than one- third of U.S. soldiers received psychological counseling. A statistic buried in the study: 23.6 percent of women reported a mental health concern compared with 18.6 percent of men.
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2755/context/archive

(currently, women are not even required by law to register for selective service, but even mentally challenged and physically disabled men are, in addition to all the healthy ones).

And do you hear men bemoaning this? Anywhere? Hello? Bueller? Bueller?

NO!

But Hillary R Clinton had the unmitigated GALL to say that the true victim in war are the WIVES! The WIVES! Not the person coming back in a body bag, no! Nor amputated and wounded and bed ridden or stuck in a wheelchair! THE WIVES! Who is self-victimizing?


I'm sorry, but you, and all the feminists who so want to believe your own BS need to wake up, grow up and smell some of what you're shovelling!

DO men sit around and try to figure out how to eliminate WOMEN from the world? Or actually do anything as misogynistic as women have and are culturally taught to be misandric? FUCK NO! In fact, on the website RadFemHub these women are actually getting together to discuss male baby murder, eugenics and hurling boys children through windows while they are closed!

Here is the link to the screencaps!

http://agentorangefiles.com/

Or not helping up a 6 year old who slipped on ice and fell, cuncussed on impact and had a broken leg, then was forced to try and rise and slammed into the ice again and again then CRAWL 200-300 feet back to class where he was given NO MEDICAL ATTENTION!

http://www.reddit.com/r/troubledteens/comments/o4f72/teacher_makes_boy_with_broken_leg_concussion/

http://www.dreamindemon.com/2012/01/06/lawsuit-kindergartener-forced-to-crawl-from-playground-after-breaking-leg/

Had that been a woman it would have had NATIONAL attention! But the parents are suing for a small sum, 200,000 only.

You are in a fucking dream-zone, and your projective issues you see men doing are all a fantasy based on what Feminists and their supporters are and have been doing.

You want to argue facts, I got no troubles with that. But don't go crying for help from your friends when you can't stand the painful truth you won't recognize.

And again, I'm SORRY these girls were killed, but you need to grow up and put the blame where it lies! On the women who LAUGHINGLY recount killing them! Your empathy is lacking if you reach for the scapegoat of men and don't look deeper.

And to top it all off, if this was an attempt to self-victimize then the data wouldn't back up the reality that MEN are the victims and no MSM or anywhere else outside of searching for this info will bring it to the fore. So try again, White Knight.

[jem_is_bi]

OH!!! YES!!!

Crap! Utter crap!

[pepperjack]

Think I can spot man-haters by now. Had a girlfriend when younger who shredded my back with her nails under the pretense of uncontrollable passion. Last girlfriend was similar. During pillow talk one night, I gently critiqued her on her oral skills & she went nuts! The very next night, she deliberately scraped me with her teeth; uncomfortable & painful. Shortly afterward, she confessed she grew up hating her father. Relationship ended shortly after that.:cool:

[æonpax]

There is no barb in æon's post, only a sad acceptance of what the world is like and a desire that it be changed.. {snipped for brevity}


Your posts are always spot on but don't you think you are wasting such eloquence on deaf ears? As ye ole Bible put it:


"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Despite the magnitude and travesty of lost human life, this small crew can only think of their misogynist proselytizing prat. While thankfully, most men have both educationally and emotionally evolved past this gangs primal and stagnated stage of human development, they are still a dying breed of men who cling with white knuckles, to their archaic beliefs. This too shall pass.

The problem of female infanticide is even worse than the BBC article stated. For example;








•653,000,000 males and
•612,000,000 females
= 41,000,000 fewer females
Source: 2000 census People’s Republic of China
http://www.taliacarner.com/gendercide.pdf

As I said in my earlier post, the problem isn't men in these countries, per se, it's economics and greed. To wit;



The case of infanticide in India closely mirrors the case of infanticide in China, due to the high social desire for boys, which are seen as, however while China's ‘one baby policy’ compounds the the situation, there is little difference in the plight of unborn females in either country. While infanticide is more widespread in rural populations, it is not only a rural issue and effects all social classes due to the culmination of both social stigma attached to girls and poverty. Girls are seen as an a burden, while boys are looked upon as an investment, and thus the gender balance in the country has heavily shifted. Now many rural areas has such hard populations of males versus females that finding a bride is often a challenge. - http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2008/04/30/indias-infanticide-shame/

With women entering the work force en masse and gaining their own economic freedom, the customs of passing a name, and the economic benefits that go with it, become antiquated and will soon see the way of the dinosaur, but at what cost to females?

Any logical, educated and reasonable discourse with people who insist on pushing their own pathetic agenda is really a waste of time. The problem of murdered infants is far too compelling and immediate than to waste time with fools.

Here's some sage advice that was given to me by a wise man:



Joan, keep focused;
when you are knee deep in alligators
snipping and snapping at you,
don't forget,
your objective is to drain the swamp.

[tenni]

I think that it is a bit of a shame that this thread has moved from infanticide to accusations about blame.

Ian has made a point and then carries on with what I think are side bars. The thread topic is about infanticide of female babies. There are injustices and deaths of males as well but not infanticide. The various deaths of males is another issue.

Coming back to Aeon's defense of perhaps "jumping the shark" and moving from discussing the social issue of female infanticde to accusing males of the root cause of female infanticide. She offered this position.

"Interesting comment as neither the film, article or myself said or implied anything of the sort. To say men "indoctrinate" (my word) or otherwise teach woman in that culture to perform the duty I described, is merely stating a fact. My accentuation on men avoiding this "bloody" act, may be a metaphor you don't like, but heh, that's the way it is. "

Aeon
Why make this an argument of blaming men? You write that you are stating a fact without any evidence! I don't think that it helps to accuse men. It is more likely women and men who are to blame (if you must blame rather than stopping female infanticide). It is a cultural decision and value. I pointed out this "belief" (not fact) that these Eastern cultures do not place as much significance as you do for a "single" life. It is not just infanticide but permeates the culture to the point that murder of another person is just not that important either. The individual is just not valued culturally as much as in the west. While those in India and China understand this value, we in the west do not.

Arguing about blaming one gender or the other is wasting our energy and time. I do have to wonder like all "morality" issues who is to judge? We in the west judge this cultural tradition as inappropriate , wrong, bad. Are we going to change it? If a route cause is the cultural belief/value on the need to insure taking care of the elderly and which children will do this better, who am I to tell them that is not a solution or the best solution because my values say each life is of equal value to another? Aeon and I say yes, we value each life equally. So, what? It changes nothing.

I believe that Aeon above has stated that is it her personal choice not to buy products from China or India due to female infanticide. Ok. That's a good reaction if the Chinese understand that one person in the US objects to female infanticide.

[darkeyes]

It is not that eloquence or other wise falls on deaf ears.. that it does to certain posters is unquestioned.. to the likes of Ian.. well what can I say? But the dinosaur is not all man... there are others more enlightened, less sauropod and believe in justice and equality for women as much and often as passionnately as do we.. who see beyond what a certain kind of man accuses us of being and scoff at the comments of manhate just as we do.. without the majority of men being on the side of women in our struggle for equality we could never have made the progress that we have since the kitchen sink days of yore.. most men.. most human beings hate injustice... you are right..

The misogynist is a dying breed and thank kismet for it.. that they will never quite disappear is likely, but they will be, as they are increasingly becoming now, marginalised to fringes of human thought.,. I am the first to admit that misandry is alive and well and regret that as much as any misogyny, but I do wish people would understand the difference between misandry and those of us who argue for change in societal attitudes and treatment of women... and do wish people would understand that manhate such as exists does so for a different reason than its male counterpart... it exists fundamentally in reaction to the actions and dominance of men over centuries and specific instances of hurt wrought upon many women.. most misogyny exists because of the historical male feeling that they are the stronger, brighter and superior gender and have the greater right to dominate their female neighbours.. the reaction to strong and intelligent women by many men is evidence of this.. it is part of the defence mechanism to ridicule and humiliate a woman who is not a real woman.. but a pseudo man.. similar in a sense, to Mr Macho not believing a gay or bisexual man is a real man... but a pseudo woman.. luckily fewer men each year fall into this trap and in time such attitudes will wither and if not die, but be so marginalised as to mean very little..

Such is the insecurity of some men that they grab on the slightest excuse and read into what women say and think to justify their primordial attitudes.. they care more about what they think a woman said or, as is just as likely, quite deliberately misrepresent what she has said for their own reasons, than the appalling crime which is the subject of this thread.. and force the likes of me to defend myself and others at length by also putting on a back burner what is a fucking disgraceful happening to thousands of children who just happen to be girls in Asia..

Well I wont play your game any longer.. think of me as u will... just think on this.. if the day comes when I hate any of you I will fucking well tell you.. if I ever decide I hate the male of my species.. I will fucking well tell you.. I hate certain thoughts and ideas, as I hate many deeds and actions.. I do not hate people no matter their gender nor if I may add here, do I hate people for what they stand for or what they have done... now play your game all you like but do it elsewhere on site.. the lives of millions of kids are far more important to me than any of your poor misguided and misleading accusations and insecurities...

[æonpax]

{snipped/unsnipped}Aeon Why make this an argument of blaming men? You write that you are stating a fact without any evidence! I don't think that it helps to accuse men. It is more likely women and men who are to blame (if you must blame rather than stopping female infanticide). It is a cultural decision and value. I pointed out this "belief" (not fact) that these Eastern cultures do not place as much significance as you do for a "single" life. It is not just infanticide but permeates the culture to the point that murder of another person is just not that important either. The individual is just not valued culturally as much as in the west. While those in India and China understand this value, we in the west do not.

Arguing about blaming one gender or the other is wasting our energy and time. I do have to wonder like all "morality" issues who is to judge? We in the west judge this cultural tradition as inappropriate , wrong, bad. Are we going to change it? If a route cause is the cultural belief/value on the need to insure taking care of the elderly and which children will do this better, who am I to tell them that is not a solution or the best solution because my values say each life is of equal value to another? Aeon and I say yes, we value each life equally. So, what? It changes nothing.

I believe that Aeon above has stated that is it her personal choice not to buy products from China or India due to female infanticide. Ok. That's a good reaction if the Chinese understand that one person in the US objects to female infanticide.


I'm sorry but I utterly reject your entire line of thought here. Not only does it play into the hands of the misogynists but it is speculative and as the great Perry Mason used to say, it's "incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial." You do not bring up up valid points but instead rehash the tripe that has been said and use unsupported rationalizations.

The entire article and my comment was NOT an assessment of blame, in my OP, the only time I mention “men “ as a contributing factor is this sentence;



Indoctrinated at birth by men, it is the duty of women in these cultures, to conduct this murderous ritual while leaving the mans hands, unbloodied .

That's some real stinging accusations I made there...only if one is of the mindset of looking to be offended. An educated man in an academic argument might challenge my sentence structure but not the substance of this topic. Such is not the case here.

The problem of female infanticide is exponentially much, much larger than male infanticide. The misogynist inclusion of that issue in their rebuttal, had absolutely nothing to do with female infanticide and was a direct attempt to derail a legitimate thread to push their own dying agenda. They are welcome to start their own thread on male infanticide, which is equally as murderous as female infanticide

Please point our where I “attack” or blame all men? You cannot because I did not say that. I could have commented and linked to these sites which do assess, implicitly or implied, male blame, but that was not my intention.

http://voices.yahoo.com/chinese-men-killing-kids-sterilization-infanticide-6014338.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/abortion/medical/infanticide_1.shtml
http://www.webster.edu/~woolflm/femaleinfanticide.html

I posted other links highlighting the male involvement in this kind of murder which you and obviously the misogynists did not read.

If you’d please read back, I also stated that woman are also culpable, to wit:

"...is that women there are just as culpable as men for this female infanticide. However, they have been sub-servant to the cultural customs of patriarchal superiority for thousands of years and know of no other way of life. Education, as I stated, for both men and women would be a good start to put an end to this kind of heinous murder of infant females."
This is just another example of selective reading, I daresay.

Another red herring that was brought up by the female infanticide apologists is this idea of customs. Customs and their values, regardless of nationality and culture or how old they are, change, don’t ya know? Western values such as the equality of women, are making inroads in Indo-Asia as evidenced by the Asian countries I already mentioned. As I also pointed out these murderous customs are NOT the result of governments of religion but from MEN. Women did not invent this, MEN did. I’m sorry but that’s the facts. I might add, does it sadden you that the Western value on the sanctity of life, brought about by a belief in "Natural Law", is being taught in Indo-Asia?

The reading and critical thinking skills of a few males here leaves a lot to be desired specifically amongst a certain genre of males, like the rabid misogynists. This problem of female infanticide is much larger than this small group even has the imagination comprehend.

[keefer728]

Fran and Aeon.......get a room already. If one of you said the moon was made of hamburger, the other would swear to it.

[darkeyes]

Fran and Aeon.......get a room already. If one of you said the moon was made of hamburger, the other would swear to it.

æon booked the room, Keefer in case u didnt notice, and allcomers are welcome long as they use it for the purpose it was intended.. but alas a few riotous peeps decide to get out of hand as they do but bein ver patient an nice girls and not havin ne bouncers in our employ we rely on our wit and intelligence to control these outa hand lummoxes an put 'em in ther place... they dont wanna listen an carry on bein' clowns thats their affair...

...but as the moon is made of cheese and both she and I know that, we are hardly likely to fall out over it bein' made of hamburger now are we;)? .. and bout she and I agreeing with each other... well same could be said of u and the other lummoxes... wonder why that is???:rolleyes:

[tenni]

"A solution therefore must be three-fold. Policy efforts combatting poverty must be supplemented by legal prohibitions. There must be an educational programme informing women of their rights. Finally and most importantly, there must be a social and religions campaign aimed at destroying ossified cultural attitudes."

"In Kashmir, officials have enlisted the help of social and religious leaders. It is religious and social leaders that must reinforce legal prohibitions on dowries with campaigns attacking the social pressures of producing one. And they must supplement information of women’s rights by persuading mothers to educate their daughters and to allow their daughters to work. These cultural channels are best placed to begin to erode sexist cultural monoliths."

First, I don't know if I'm the only one who did not read the attached articles. Somehow, I didn't see it or pay sufficient attention to this article.(never read them but have now read the first article) The above quote gives a proposed solution to the problem in infanticide of females. It demonstrates a multi prong approach.

I definitely don't think that this has anything to do with some of the arguments put forward about males per sei. I like the involvement of spiritual leaders to support government actions to change cultural values.

[IanBorthwick]

I think that it is a bit of a shame that this thread has moved from infanticide to accusations about blame.

Ian has made a point and then carries on with what I think are side bars. The thread topic is about infanticide of female babies.

We'll agree to disagree on that, Tenni, because I have been addressing the the tripe tossed out about victimization and "ndoctrinated at birth by men, it is the duty of women in these cultures, to conduct this murderous ritual while leaving the mans hands, unbloodied . " in every post, no side bar there. If this has gotten derailed anywhere it is because of the chasing around corners to make points done by others here int he name of Female Self Victimization,and I have soundly disproven it, as well as showed that the interest in male issues is lacking so no one is chasing OUR deaths worldwide as there is a provable lack of interest here as even baby boys are supposed to man up despite being BABIES.

Fact is no one gives a rats ass about male baby deaths, it's the clarion call of the feminist to only show female issues and I injected the counterbalance here. In fact you mentioned infanticide and didn't say a think about males when in fact there is a worldwide, and growing, male infant mortality rate much higher than females! Part of it due to Male Genital Mutilation! The World Health Organization has undertaken to keep these numbers silent because they are rolling out the BS that circumcision reduces the risk of HIV infection by 50%.

The numbers have been discredited and the agency involved in aquiring this erroneous data has been denounced soundly, but it's still moving forward! Even the vaguest estimates show we are purposelly NOT looking for truth here!

http://www.circumstitions.com/death.html
http://www.icgi.org/2010/04/infant-circumcision-causes-100-deaths-each-year-in-us/
http://www.icgi.org/articles/bollinger4.pdf

This doesn't sound to you like regimented infanticide? And when they unroll this in Africa, you don't think the less sterile environment isn't going to make this number spike?

http://www.aidstar-one.com/focus_areas/prevention/resources/technical_consultation_materials/Male_Circumcision_Communication_Meeting_Durban#pre sentationsection

http://www.avoiceformen.com/featured/politics-money-and-ideology-whos-circumcision-plan/

You're kidding right? And all the data that is collected is unofficial and most of the causes of death involved in circumcision are routinely called by any other cause out of a handful they can find to deflect blame in the US. Now think on that in a global scale and understand why I am challenging you to expand your scope, Tenni.

These are facts, not appeals to emotion. I learned a long time ago the feminist dogma owns the people who subscribe to it, not by logic, but by desire to feel vindicated in HATE. I linked the garbage that Radical Feminists talk about daily on their own forums, I linked statistics and facts and for it I'm being told I am off topic because I followed where the feminist meander leads...well that's just fine, I'll shoulder the blame for that as it's always a man's fault..even when it's not.

Fran, save your whist for someone who isn't blocking you, I stopped listening the last time you decided to take a potshot at me when I was down in the name of Feminist assistance to Man Up. Yours and Aeon brand of helping the world is akin to passing out white feathers to those who refused to go to war for your nations when women had the vote and ALL men did not yet, even though they had to fight for their country. The rights you have are because men decided you should have them, not because of any other reason. This world was built to protect you by MEN, and you show much scorn and little gratitude in your comments. People who assist you in running in rhetorical circles are lauded and those who want to wake you up from your doldrums are despised. We recognize your brand on sight.

As I said in each post, this is about the error of the first statement by Aeon, that the blood needs to be on MEN'S hands, and I was told I misunderstood. Tell me how? Tell me how scapegoat blame-castign away from the women who commit these crimes was anything other than an attempt to deflect blame and continue the circular logic of Women Good/Male Bad that has been plaguing the world for 50 years? Tell me how removing accountability of the women who do this FIXES THE FUCKING PROBLEM? Tell me how these ladies are not jailed or killed themselves for their actions, and please do not try to tell me they are, or that men are cowards or some shite like that because it doesn't happen.

There is blatant anti-male discrimination in the criminal justice system and the sentencing disparity between men and women exceeds that between whites and any other minority.

http://ncfm.org/2011/04/issues/criminal-sentencing/

Avg sentences for crime by gender:

Female – 18.51 months
Male – 51.52 months

http://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf

“Judge bashes Probation Department for gender bias in favor of leniency for girls”

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-12-01/news/27082827_1_gender-bias-probation-officers-probation-department

The 2006 United States’ rate of incarceration of 751 inmates per 100,000 population is the highest reported rate in the world, well ahead of the Russian rate of 628 per 100,000.

93% of the prison population is male with over 60% having no High School education. America has now passed Russia as the country that has the largest percentage of its population incarcerated, yet we still claim to be the freest country on earth.

The number of persons on probation and parole has been growing dramatically along with institutional populations. There are now 7.2 million Americans incarcerated or on probation or parole, an increase of more than 290 percent since 1980.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/

The problem of sentencing disparities is compounded by an epidemic of false accusations:

205 (and growing) wrongly convicted people have been exonerated by DNA evidence since the beginning of the Innocence Project.

204 of the wrongly convicted were men.

Most of them were falsely imprisoned for rape.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/

As we saw in the Duke Lacrosse rape case fiasco, false accusers are rarely prosecuted and when they are it is only as a misdemeanor (at most), while rape itself is vigorously prosecuted as a felony. The Duke false accuser, Crystal Gayle Mangum went on to commit assault, arson and finally murder before authorities made a good faith intervention.

One attorney speaking at premiere for the movie, After Innocence, estimates that there are between 20,000 and 100,000 wrongly convicted still in prison.

Valid research puts the estimated false rape reporting rate at 41%

Source: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/p/prevalence-of-false-rape-claims.html

Capital Punishment Targets Men Almost Exclusively

Since the death penalty was reinstated in 1976, there have been over 1,200 executions in the United States. Eleven of them, or less than 1%, were women. This stands in stark contrast considering women commit, by DOJ estimates, 10% of all murders, are involved in 35% of all domestic homicides (are involved often means they get other people to kill for them) and nearly 30% of murders where the victim was another family member.

We hear a lot about the historical oppression of women’s voting rights, but few if any women who were born in the 20th century were every without the right to vote in their lifetime, upon reaching legal voting age. On the other hand, around 2400 hundred California men (42% of CA men killed in Vietnam) gave their life for their country without being allowed by their country to vote. The exact number is 2,381. Four of the twelve Iwo Jimo flag raisers died for their country without their country ever allowing them the right to vote.

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/a-b/blumhorst/2005/blumhorst052805.htm

http://www.thewall-usa.com/names.asp

“The youngest Vietnam KIA is believed to be Dan Bullock USMC, at 15 years old.
At least 5 men killed in Vietnam were 16 years old.
At least 12 men killed in Vietnam were 17 years old.
There are 120 persons who listed foreign countries as their home of record.
At least 25,000 of those killed were 20 years old or younger.
The oldest man killed was 62 years old.”

If you do a full count on all the men in the 20th century who died for their country without being allowed to vote the numbers will be staggering.

In America there are over 270 women’s commissions, but only one for men in New Hampshire.

There are over 700 Women’s Studies programs on colleges and universities throughout the United States teaching thousands or tens of thousands of classes from the gender feminist perspective, but not one program or class, teaching men’s studies from the masculist perspective.

This is the US alone, other countries have shown similar Gynocentric/Protective habits, though much less in some cultures than others, but it's STILL THE WAY MEN AND SOCIETIES ARE TAUGHT TO RESPOND TO WOMEN! It's called protect the bloodline by sacrificing the men and protecting the women and children first.

I'm done with this thread and your lack of cogency on the issues. You outed yourselves, I only made sure to hold up the mirror to your clownishness.

[pepperjack]

Your posts are always spot on but don't you think you are wasting such eloquence on deaf ears? As ye ole Bible put it:


"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Despite the magnitude and travesty of lost human life, this small crew can only think of their misogynist proselytizing prat. While thankfully, most men have both educationally and emotionally evolved past this gangs primal and stagnated stage of human development, they are still a dying breed of men who cling with white knuckles, to their archaic beliefs. This too shall pass.

The problem of female infanticide is even worse than the BBC article stated. For example;








•653,000,000 males and
•612,000,000 females
= 41,000,000 fewer females
Source: 2000 census People’s Republic of China
http://www.taliacarner.com/gendercide.pdf

As I said in my earlier post, the problem isn't men in these countries, per se, it's economics and greed. To wit;



The case of infanticide in India closely mirrors the case of infanticide in China, due to the high social desire for boys, which are seen as, however while China's ‘one baby policy’ compounds the the situation, there is little difference in the plight of unborn females in either country. While infanticide is more widespread in rural populations, it is not only a rural issue and effects all social classes due to the culmination of both social stigma attached to girls and poverty. Girls are seen as an a burden, while boys are looked upon as an investment, and thus the gender balance in the country has heavily shifted. Now many rural areas has such hard populations of males versus females that finding a bride is often a challenge. - http://foreignpolicyblogs.com/2008/04/30/indias-infanticide-shame/

With women entering the work force en masse and gaining their own economic freedom, the customs of passing a name, and the economic benefits that go with it, become antiquated and will soon see the way of the dinosaur, but at what cost to females?

Any logical, educated and reasonable discourse with people who insist on pushing their own pathetic agenda is really a waste of time. The problem of murdered infants is far too compelling and immediate than to waste time with fools.

Here's some sage advice that was given to me by a wise man:



Joan, keep focused;
when you are knee deep in alligators
snipping and snapping at you,
don't forget,
your objective is to drain the swamp.

This is wisdom? And you love to argue logic! In other words, a suicide mission. Water or not, the gators would get you. So much for being focused.:rolleyes:

[æonpax]

This is wisdom? And you love to argue logic! In other words, a suicide mission. Water or not, the gators would get you. So much for being focused.:rolleyes:

Actually, what I quoted is called an “aphorism”. I learned that in grade school along with the fact that such sayings are not meant to be taken “literally”, like Aesop's Fables. You might have missed that while sleeping in class.

One of Friedrich Nietzsche’s famous quotes is an aphorism; "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Nietzche did not literally mean a “monster” like Frankenstein or something. The meaning is that one should not become the evil or injustice one is fighting, like the US adopting the same techniques of torture and concentration camps that their enemy used during WWII, Korea or Vietnam.

My aphorism about alligators and swamps, of course, should not be taken literally either, which you did thus totally missing the point. This one however has a hook to it. At face value, it means don’t allow yourself to get distracted. If the author of this saying, would have used the word “frogs” instead of alligators, it just wouldn’t have had the same bite* to it.

The hook here, is that when one does drain a swamp, the alligators leave. Their natural habitat is swamps.

Thank you for allowing me to alleviate any confusion you might have had on this.

(* double entendre)

[keefer728]

One of Friedrich Nietzsche’s famous quotes is an aphorism; "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Nietzche did not literally mean a “monster” like Frankenstein or something. The meaning is that one should not become the evil or injustice one is fighting, like the US adopting the same techniques of torture and concentration camps that their enemy used during WWII, Korea or Vietnam.

You literally have no shame, do you? I find that totally outrageous that you would even in jest, make such a claim.

[darkeyes]

This is wisdom? And you love to argue logic! In other words, a suicide mission. Water or not, the gators would get you. So much for being focused.:rolleyes:

..and yet swamps and wetlands around the world have so been drained....;)

[darkeyes]

One of Friedrich Nietzsche’s famous quotes is an aphorism; "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Nietzche did not literally mean a “monster” like Frankenstein or something. The meaning is that one should not become the evil or injustice one is fighting, like the US adopting the same techniques of torture and concentration camps that their enemy used during WWII, Korea or Vietnam.

You literally have no shame, do you? I find that totally outrageous that you would even in jest, make such a claim.

I dont think æon is saying quite what you are thinking she is... yet to some degree, all enemies learn from one another and all enemies throughout history have often lept into bed with the devil by adopting many of the worst techniques as well as the technology of their enemy..

[keefer728]

Fran; before saying what I did in that post I read and re-read what was said more than a few times. Putting it into the phrasing that it is in, and knowing the belief system, there is no doubt that it was meant it exactly as I took it.

[æonpax]

I dont think æon is saying quite what you are thinking she is... yet to some degree, all enemies learn from one another and all enemies throughout history have often lept into bed with the devil by adopting many of the worst techniques as well as the technology of their enemy..

I’ll admit, I could have used a less contentious comparison but I found it fitting. The debate in the US as to waterboarding being torture or Guantanamo Bay being the precursor or a euphemism for a concentration camp, is ongoing with no consensus. However, the very fact that this nation has even considered adopting the tactics of our enemies which we fought against, speaks volumes of it’s decline as a society which used to hold human dignity and respect as sacrosanct.

Consider our GOP debates. The conservative, right-wing people are booing gay soldiers and even the mention of the name, Mexico. Those same people are also cheering the death penalty and the denial of health benefits for those too poor to afford them. I’m watching our nation become a money grubbing, amoral construct with people whom are more concerned about themselves and their selfish luxuries, while they leave those less fortunate, to fend for themselves…not just in our own country but around the world.

Take this thread as a good example. Tens of millions of infant females are getting murdered and all some of these pukes can think of, is a miscast word critical of males, then they come crawling out of the woodwork, with their self-righteous erections, feigning the victim. They showed absolutely no concern for these infants. While only a few of those are American, it none the less, shows the degradation the so-called moral precepts, if only in name, this country used to stand for, and perhaps, the western world.

I consider waterboarding torture and Gitmo, a concentration camp. I do not stand alone on this either. Prudence dictates that I should have chosen a less volatile analogy, but sometimes, prudence is overrated.

[keefer728]

What did I tell you! I wasn't even going to give the benefit of the obvioius. Gitmo and waterboarding. This is like shooting fish in a bowl. Truly disgraceful.

[darkeyes]

What did I tell you! I wasn't even going to give the benefit of the obvioius. Gitmo and waterboarding. This is like shooting fish in a bowl. Truly disgraceful.

As a citizen of the country which gave to the world the concept of the concentration camp, and which has used gas against tribespeople dropped from the air in Iraq and elsewhere, which has never been above using a little torture now and then, and training and aiding others to do just that as well as training an aiding others on many of the more odious forms of warfare I ask this.. did Americans use waterboarding? Do they have a concentration camp in cuba? Have they never used the concentration camp principle? Have they never used torture? Has the US never done anything which is barbaric and brutal and infinges upon the rights of human beings as a matter of policy? My country certainly has and it continues so to do I am ashamed to say.. should we deny it? Hide it? Justify it? Trivialise it? Or search it out shout it from the rooftops and try and end it??? Which, in a supposedly free and democratic society is best, Keefer???

You wont get me taking issue with what æon says because it is a matter of historical record... it is no use jumping up and down in the air and getting all heated.. we should never hide the brutalities of those who do this ostensibly in our name or supposedly in defence of our freedoms... conversely by acting the brute to overcome a brute this does not make us free but lowers us to the level of the beast.. æon was not equating the US to the Nazis or any other enemy in particular but stating a simple truth.. that in war, even the good guys become brutes although neither my country or yours has always been the good guy however much we would like to believe otherwise.. they may not have become as the monster but they have copied and employed many of the methods of the monster and so tar themselves with an unhealthy coating of monstrous.. it is an undeniable truth..

..and she is right in this also.. by distracting and deviating from the purpose of her thread, and raising issues which have no bearing on the subject of the thread, especially about a subject as important as the killing of hundreds of thousands of children, thus trivialising and reducing its importance and that surely is an immoral act? Those who do so do as many have done over millenia.. they they have shown they have learned and employed the methods of the monster and by doing so it can easily be argued that although they may not be monster themselves, what they do is in itself a monstrous act...

I am a pacifist as you well know, and little means more to me than the lives of other human beings and that they be allowed to live in peace and tranquility alongside their neighbours.. I have never accepted the "win at all costs" principle I am more of the "its not cricket" kind of person which is fundamentally why I am a pacifist in the first place... rules soon go down the pan when it comes to conflict... the ends do not justify the means.. that approach merely makes us much less human and tears from us our compassion and consideration for others with whom we share this world and creates further suspicion and bitterness leading to more conflict and war.....

The way this debate has gone should never have been... that there are differences in our perceptions of the world is a fact we all have to face, and the side issues raised have their place in the greater debate of the affairs of humankind.. but not I think on this thread... this thread is about the deaths of children.. of baby girls... not of feminism or whether man is to blame for the lot of women in the west, nor should it be about the monstrous nature of war and who is and is not a monster.. but it should be about learning why, and what we in the west can do about this appalling happening.. what happens to those baby girls is monstrous.. but after centuries of cultural impregnation and indoctrination, of economic hardship and misery, does that make those men and women who kill their children or leave them to die, monsters?

[tenni]

"The way this debate has gone should never have been"

I may be wrong but I don't think that a large number of posters have a clue about debating an issue or even more simply discussing an issue so that it stays on topic. Waterboarding, GITMO and US morality has an unclear or an inexplicable connection to infanticide of females in China and India. If there is a connection the poster failed to explain it coherently. Is it possible that we might get back to the issue? (or let this thread vanish as there is nothing else to write about it that is relevant)

[pepperjack]

Actually, what I quoted is called an “aphorism”. I learned that in grade school along with the fact that such sayings are not meant to be taken “literally”, like Aesop's Fables. You might have missed that while sleeping in class.

One of Friedrich Nietzsche’s famous quotes is an aphorism; "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster." Nietzche did not literally mean a “monster” like Frankenstein or something. The meaning is that one should not become the evil or injustice one is fighting, like the US adopting the same techniques of torture and concentration camps that their enemy used during WWII, Korea or Vietnam.

My aphorism about alligators and swamps, of course, should not be taken literally either, which you did thus totally missing the point. This one however has a hook to it. At face value, it means don’t allow yourself to get distracted. If the author of this saying, would have used the word “frogs” instead of alligators, it just wouldn’t have had the same bite* to it.

The hook here, is that when one does drain a swamp, the alligators leave. Their natural habitat is swamps.

Thank you for allowing me to alleviate any confusion you might have had on this.

(* double entendre)

Typical condescending lecture as if I can't draw these conclusions myself. If it's not meant to be taken literally, then why did you mention the hook? Yes, but before leaving the swamp, the gators have done away with the perpetrator. This so called sage wisdom seems to reflect that of the suicide bomber.:smilies15

[void()]

Epistemic closure is a condition in which a given population has access only to a body of centrally-approved information, with the goal of convincing said population that a certain set of beliefs is true, despite evidence to the contrary.
[edit] Methods

It achieves this goal by:

immersing the audience in a body of works which all agree on the target belief
...where said works frequently cite and cross-reference each other, to encourage the idea that the target beliefs are widely-held and not seriously disputed
discouraging the audience from consulting any sources outside this body by using emotional arguments (e.g. stating that non-approved works are untrustworthy, immoral, or harmful, or that taking non-approved works seriously may result in ostracism)

[edit] Habitat

Epistemic closure is found frequently in US conservative philosophy and punditry, as well as in many religions.

Cite: http://issuepedia.org/Epistemic_closure


Apologies, not seeing how this applies only to men, and yet not women. It would apply to both, or rather any whom used it as a tactic. More importantly I do not think it quite means as said,


It all boils down to people who actually look to be offended and they seek out the victim role and play it to the hilt. They will only accept information that conforms to their ideological reality. It's not a rational way of thinking.

Cite: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=220340&postcount=26



Again: Epistemic closure is a condition in which a given population has access only to a body of centrally-approved information, with the goal of convincing said population that a certain set of beliefs is true, despite evidence to the contrary.

Whom is the central authority?

In this case it appears to be the original poster, least that appears what is being asserted. I would hazard then the site here is the given population.

Which to me seems ridiculous because, well frankly one may use the internet find contrary evidence at their own choice. This web site alone is not the "be all end all", sorry.

It achieves this goal by:

immersing the audience in a body of works which all agree on the target belief

This to me sounds like the expression "preaching to the choir." Again, this seems a ridiculous notion. Not everyone on this site may agree, or share the same view. That ought to be pretty obvious by now.


...where said works frequently cite and cross-reference each other, to encourage the idea that the target beliefs are widely-held and not seriously disputed

Again, lots of fallacy here. Not everyone eats brand X tacos. Further, common sense is far from common nowadays. That means little can be widely agreed upon, much less not disputed.

discouraging the audience from consulting any sources outside this body by using emotional arguments (e.g. stating that non-approved works are untrustworthy, immoral, or harmful, or that taking non-approved works seriously may result in ostracism)

Yes, I know about being an ostrich here. Reason and common sense always seem to lose against emotional debates. Got fed with so called friends like that, here. Friends like that who needs enemies?

Aeon, I am not attacking you in any manner. Rather I am attacking an idea you presented. You slung the mud whilst it equally applied to yourself. To me that looks foolish. Did respect your intellect, until now. Aeon, I don't like you because you seem dumb, not because your a woman.
No reply needed because I'm sure you'd probably find some means of castigation and devaluing my view. I no longer care. Go on if you must, I'm finished.

[æonpax]

Apologies, not seeing how this applies only to men, and yet not women. It would apply to both, or rather any whom used it as a tactic. More importantly I do not think it quite means as said,
Again: Epistemic closure is a condition in which a given population has access only to a body of centrally-approved information, with the goal of convincing said population that a certain set of beliefs is true, despite evidence to the contrary.
Whom is the central authority?
In this case it appears to be the original poster, least that appears what is being asserted. I would hazard then the site here is the given population.
Which to me seems ridiculous because, well frankly one may use the internet find contrary evidence at their own choice. This web site alone is not the "be all end all", sorry.
It achieves this goal by:
mmersing the audience in a body of works which all agree on the target beliefThis to me sounds like the expression "preaching to the choir." Again, this seems a ridiculous notion. Not everyone on this site may agree, or share the same view. That ought to be pretty obvious by now.
..where said works frequently cite and cross-reference each other, to encourage the idea that the target beliefs are widely-held and not seriously disputed
Again, lots of fallacy here. Not everyone eats brand X tacos. Further, common sense is far from common nowadays. That means little can be widely agreed upon, much less not disputed.
discouraging the audience from consulting any sources outside this body by using emotional arguments (e.g. stating that non-approved works are untrustworthy, immoral, or harmful, or that taking non-approved works seriously may result in ostracism)
Yes, I know about being an ostrich here. Reason and common sense always seem to lose against emotional debates. Got fed with so called friends like that, here. Friends like that who needs enemies?
Aeon, I am not attacking you in any manner. Rather I am attacking an idea you presented. You slung the mud whilst it equally applied to yourself. To me that looks foolish. Did respect your intellect, until now. Aeon, I don't like you because you seem dumb, not because your a woman.
No reply needed because I'm sure you'd probably find some means of castigation and devaluing my view. I no longer care. Go on if you must, I'm finished.


All of this has to do with "context." I recognize no authority or expert in an online forum. If a person claims to state a fact, they need to likewise support or qualify it. Such is the convention of educated discourse. I will not take anyone’s word on a particular topic…at least until they have gained a modicum of respect, which does not exist. None of the protagonists here provided proof of their supposed facts, lacking that, their statements are reduced to mere opinions.

Conversely, I do not expect anyone to take my word on anything, hence, I provide a link to a site that supports any facts I state. Judging from the responses, none of the protagonists read my sources. I ask myself; why? There are multiple reasons but to sum them up, I used the phrase “Epistemic closure” which is an abundantly accurate and concise description of the misogynistic mindset I’ve encountered, with a few males here.

That same phrase, Epistemic closure, caused a hell of a storm in 2010 when it was used to describe the US conservative mindset. (source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/28/books/28conserv.html ) but again, in my opinion, it accurately described the state of the conservative ideology. As for “authority”, which is your word and not the part of any definition I’m aware of, you’d have to ask those whom did not read my sources.

Your explanation of what you consider to be Epistemic closure and it’s definition, I will respect but not agree with. The philosophy behind “Epistemic closure” is a lot more involved than I let on ( one source: http://departments.bloomu.edu/philosophy/pages/content/hales/articlepdf/closure.pdf ) which is why I used the “Issuepedia” definition. In the context for which I used it, it describes of group of people, misogynists in this case, whom have deliberately shut themselves out of facts, logical argument and evidence that does not conform to their ideology.

I replied to you knowing full well that your comment takes this topic further away from female infanticide. However, since the cake has already been cut (so to speak), you were polite, civil and replied in an academic and intelligent manner and this does interest me, I answered in the same vein.

Lastly, you assume I act out of emotion. That is unfortunate as it reinforces the stereotypes of women.( ex: men react out of intelligence, women, emotion) I am passionate about certain things and it is out of that passion that I make it my business to learn all I can about issues I truly care about. I cannot say the same for some of the male responses here. Those few men I can describe using this axiom; If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”

[void()]

You completely missed the boat, lady. My uncle used to teach us an expression of genuine truth. you point one finger, three more point back. You're using your touted argument / philosophy / rhetorical tactic to accuse others of the same damn thing you're doing.

And you stood up and posted about a great travesty, yes. I can concur it is wrong. There is a lot wrong in the world. You asserted facts and plead a case. This causes you to become an advocate, an authority. you're authoring a statement, a gesture. Fine and well, can agree it is wrong.

And no, I did not say you responded or wrote from emotion, nor that women always act so. I said you injected opinion into what you presented. You've claimed to have read and apply Strunk & White to your writing. Sorry, not seeing that here.

You then went on to create an echo chamber, as the definition of the term you slung stated. Then, you ostracised any whom disagreed with your opinion vis a vi, you called them misogynists. You followed the definition of the term you used and linked to exactly. As I and others said, you launched nukes, then blamed others.

If hate has you so twisted, you're going to keep seeming dumb. You'll keep playing the game. I've stopped. No one wins.

[darkeyes]

You completely missed the boat, lady. My uncle used to teach us an expression of genuine truth. you point one finger, three more point back. You're using your touted argument / philosophy / rhetorical tactic to accuse others of the same damn thing you're doing.

And you stood up and posted about a great travesty, yes. I can concur it is wrong. There is a lot wrong in the world. You asserted facts and plead a case. This causes you to become an advocate, an authority. you're authoring a statement, a gesture. Fine and well, can agree it is wrong.

And no, I did not say you responded or wrote from emotion, nor that women always act so. I said you injected opinion into what you presented. You've claimed to have read and apply Strunk & White to your writing. Sorry, not seeing that here.

You then went on to create an echo chamber, as the definition of the term you slung stated. Then, you ostracised any whom disagreed with your opinion vis a vi, you called them misogynists. You followed the definition of the term you used and linked to exactly. As I and others said, you launched nukes, then blamed others.

If hate has you so twisted, you're going to keep seeming dumb. You'll keep playing the game. I've stopped. No one wins.

The first strike was not from æon, but one of a similar sounding name with a blatantly false claim, Voidie... what she has thrown in return is curt at times but hardly nuclear.. nor does it display hate but an intolerance of falsehood and yes, misogyny.. it also displays the frustration of a wrecked thread on an important issue where some for their own reasons wished to pick a fight on an issue nothing to do with the thread... we all express opinion, that is what makes us human.. we all think differently about the things we see and on the facts before us... we all have our own perception... some perception is even accurate.. but not all...

[æonpax]

1) You completely missed the boat, lady.

2) My uncle used to teach us an expression of genuine truth. you point one finger, three more point back. You're using your touted argument / philosophy / rhetorical tactic to accuse others of the same damn thing you're doing.

3) And you stood up and posted about a great travesty, yes. I can concur it is wrong. There is a lot wrong in the world. a) You asserted facts and plead a case. This causes you to become an advocate, b) an authority. you're authoring a statement, a gesture. c) Fine and well, can agree it is wrong.

4) We don't need so called smart writers espousing propaganda, and that is exactly what you're doing. 5) You used a hook out of context, adding your own perception of the context. You tainted the information with your opinion.

6) "These men are misogynists, we need to hate them!"

7) It came through like a sixteen pound sledge hammer to the sternum, you could have focused more on the cultural and financial aspects.

8) "People are in so much despair they have to kill these girls in order to survive. It is more expensive to feed or cloth a girl, ..."

9) But you did not temper the argument as such, hung on to the other hook. 10) This does not imply I'm a misogynist nor condone them. 11) Actually rather feminist to moderate, all are equal, even the yellow mildew on the wall. 12) You launched nukes, then refused to take responsibility. 13) I spoke up. you replied. I still don't like you due to your actions, ideas. See? 14) I could care less if you were a robot, purple, male, female, a rat, a Venusian or Martian.

15) Doesn't matter, anybody can get their mind fouled. 16) You could have said "yeah, okay maybe I did push a few buttons", you didn't. 17) That says to me you're being dumb, maybe because hate has blinded you, maybe not. 18) Don't know or care any more. I just walk away from it. I got other stuff to worry over.

19) Keep playing the game if you want. 20) One day you might wake up and see no one wins. Of course, you may not either. 21) I'm no messiah, just a guy doing what I can with what I can. More than enough for me to contend with, don't need you or anyone lobbing off nukes, thanks. Figure that's why I'm avoiding here more.

22) If hate has you so twisted, you're going to keep seeming dumb. You'll keep playing the game. I've stopped. No one wins.


1) Then you haven’t articulated your case in a “clear and concise manner”.

2) So what? My Uncle was King of the Potato People. That is not relevant to this discussion.

3) You are stating things I never said and assuming things that I can only describe as imaginary. For example;
a) Your first mistake, I’m not pleading a case. This is not a court, no one here is a judge and jury. I was commenting, my opinion, on an article about Female Infanticide.
b) Mistaken #2, I never said or implied I was an authority. (are you alright?)
c) Mistake #3 - What’s wrong? You left out the part you think is wrong. Am I supposed to guess?

4) Who is “we?” Are you part of the misogynist crowd or do you have a mouse in your pocket?

5) You mean all of this because you didn’t like my alligator/swamp quote? Jeeze, this is getting weirder by the minute.

6) I never said that…Am I to assume you have dyslexia? I do not like misogynists and think they are a dying breed but I certainly don’t hate them. Overreacting aren’t we? Tsk.

7) Aww, my comments didn’t please you? I could have said a lot of things, even things that would tickle your little cockle-bells but alas, I didn’t. Should I have consulted you first for your approval?

8) Your opinion. Care to substantiate that with any facts?...not that I think you have any…I’ll wait, but not too long.

9) What hook now? What are you talking about? Please explain.

10) That’s nice.

11) It’s always good to have a positive self image.

12) What nukes? Please point out any phrase I made you think was overly hyperbolic. I don’t like misogynists and I’ve made that quite clear but what are you referring to?

13) I appreciate your candor, however juvenile it seems to me. I don’t know you so but if this response is any indication of the extent of what you consider “educated discourse” to be, I’ll pass. You are an avatar on a forum. I don’t make it a habit of getting worked up enough to pass judgment on avatars.

14) Non sequitur comment.

15) You are repeating yourself.

16) See #7.

17) Testy today?

18) You reply says otherwise….either that or you have a strange way of showing disattachment.

19) What game is that? Is it like “Name That Tune?” Are there prizes?

20) That doesn’t make any sense but then again, neither does your entire reply.

21) That’s nice.

22) You seem hung up on this win/lose thing. Intelligent discussions amongst equals look for common middle ground. I tried but to no avail. Your strategy appears to be attack as opposed to establishing discourse. You should consider changing your perspective.

[void()]

1.This is only part of the three pronged attack against females in this world, the other two being woman/child sexual slavery and the secular/religious abuse of females.

However, this is by far the most malignant and bloodthirsty.

At the root of this problem is the tradition of carrying the so-called family name by the male. It is such an ingrained and archaic custom, it is also found in the western world and its legal system.

2. Along with that, is another primitive custom; the dowry, albeit no longer practiced in the west. So strong are these codes of behavior, that females, en masse, are getting murdered by the millions in China, India and Africa.

As the main film suggests, The inhuman irony of this femicide, is that it is an evil perpetrated against girls by women.

3.Indoctrinated at birth by men, it is the duty of women in these cultures, to conduct this murderous ritual while leaving the mans hands, unbloodied .

This kind of female genocide is a malaise that must be eradicated from the face of this earth.

Cite: http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=220164&postcount=1



1. This injects the assumption that men are indeed attacking women. You cannot prove this is exactly case. In positing this assumption you also posit yourself as an authority, or least it seems you would claim. The proof men are in fact attacking women lies for you to present. You put the claim forward, you prove it.

I will admit that it may be the case in some instances. Your assumption though posits it is a gender based case, all men are attacking women. So, prove it. Yes, I understand you're speaking of one general location. I also understand you presenting an opinion that all men are attacking all women.

It is an opinion you cannot prove. You injected it into discussion.

2. My wife came with a dowry. Her father gave me a check. The dowry purse was not a lot. He felt bad in offering so little. Funny thing being I did not marry for any dowry, fame, fortune. I married out of love. So, yes the West still practices dowries. In parts of the deep South it is still traditional, in Appalachia as well.

3. Here is the barbed hook, leading to the nuke. Not only do assume all men are attacking all women, you assume to suggest men indoctrinate women into an odd gender hating cult. Again, you put it out there, you prove it.

Now on to some of your other points.

1. I know that I do face communication problems. I also know that a white elephant will remain a white elephant no matter how many say it may be red. People can see and read for themselves. Sometimes no amount of articulation or superb communication matter. Those whom do not desire to converse openly will not. Often they will use misdirection to avoid conversation.

"You didn't say something correctly, it's not my fault for misunderstanding."

That is a form of misdirection and degradation of the other party one engages in converse. In truth it may be no one's fault there was misunderstanding. For example, Americans say biscuits and mean something entirely different than people in the U.K. whom say biscuits.

Lots of factors go into communication, some obvious, others not. I will not further articulate. It appears obvious to me, you have chosen to not converse but engage in degrading others to appear better.

2. Agreed, it has nothing to do with this at all. Nor do accusations of men you present. What I presented was something based upon experience. When a person accuses another, others may accuse the accuser. It seems no less than three other people did accuse you. But no, there is no relevance here.

3. Yes, I understood you were presenting your opinion. I saw you injecting that opinion and providing a link to the article as you donning authority. What is wrong is the injection of opinion, specifically, 'all men are attacking all women'. And this is what you posited.

4. The we I refer to is people in general. Do you appreciate someone telling you what to think, how to think? When a writer injects opinion like you have that is exactly what is happening. It is often called propaganda. In general, people(we) do not like propaganda.

5. No, I identified earlier what hook it was exactly. To save you needing to check.


3. Here is the barbed hook, leading to the nuke. Not only do assume all men are attacking all women, you assume to suggest men indoctrinate women into an odd gender hating cult. Again, you put it out there, you prove it.

It had nothing at all to do with the alligator comment.

6. May not have been directly said but was definitely implied. Again, it stems from injecting opinion. No, not over reacting, merely conversing and telling the original poster (you) what I read.

7. Everyone that visits is free to post as they desire if they follow Drew's rules, not mine. I dislike propaganda, others may as well. It is part of why I choose to not be as invested here as in the past. Propaganda is a vicious and often abused tool. I did think you above using it.

8. No, it was the sentiment I gleamed from other articles similar to the one you linked. And factually, yes, look at the state of the world in general. Everywhere people are suffering from financial troubles. "Desperate times cause desperate actions." - Alexander the Great It is not difficult to find such sentiment. I was suggesting you could have focused more on that. You chose not to, choosing instead to focus on your opinion. I don't need factual evidence to back up common knowledge. I can present copious amounts but there is no need.

9.
5. No, I identified earlier what hook it was exactly. To save you needing to check.


3. Here is the barbed hook, leading to the nuke. Not only do assume all men are attacking all women, you assume to suggest men indoctrinate women into an odd gender hating cult. Again, you put it out there, you prove it.

It had nothing at all to do with the alligator comment.

10. Glad you approve.

11. Yes it is.

12.
9. [QUOTE]5. No, I identified earlier what hook it was exactly. To save you needing to check.


3. Here is the barbed hook, leading to the nuke. Not only do assume all men are attacking all women, you assume to suggest men indoctrinate women into an odd gender hating cult. Again, you put it out there, you prove it.

13. Agreed, not worked up here. I'm just replying back in kind, it's called conversing. I am stating an opinion of disliking your actions and ideas. That is part of the rules for posting. I'm not attacking you personally. You presented an opinion and what appeared to me to be an assumption of authority, made a decree. I dislike that idea and opinion. And those rules again are not mine but Drew's.

14. As I am not attacking you personally, your persona does not matter in our conversing. You could be a man or woman. It would not matter. Considering the subject matter in discussion that is relevant. Do not try misdirecting again.

15. Perhaps, and it proves out that human beings are fallible. Which is still relevant because no matter whom you or I are, we are human beings.

16. Yes, do see number 7.
7. Everyone that visits is free to post as they desire if they follow Drew's rules, not mine. I dislike propaganda, others may as well. It is part of why I choose to not be as invested here as in the past. Propaganda is a vicious and often abused tool. I did think you above using it.

17. Not really. I am actually demonstrating compassion and empathy. You might be having a bad day. As you do not know me, I do not know you. In what I see of you writing here, you seem to be being dumb. That's my opinion. And you have one too. We all do.

18. One can be detached yet retain an opinion or perception. As I dislike propaganda, at times I will point out what I think is propaganda. I will also say I dislike it. Again, we are conversing. In conversation, two or more present various ideas and discussion. There are quips, retorts and so on.

19. The ego game, media game. It is a game in which some think they may tell others how to think and what to think. It could possibly also be considered the myth game. Campbell speaks of some whom take the left or sinister path. These are those whom no longer follow the current myth of their culture / society.

20. More misdirection. You may consider being a magician.

21. Guess so.

22. I did alter my perspective, several times. Yes, I'm attacking the propaganda you presented. Sorry, not seen you looking for common ground. My point of bringing up win or lose is that no one wins. Of course, you continue misdirection. So, keep on if you will.

[marie0021]

What's saddest? You give YOURSELF the pussy pass and excuse your own mental gyrations and avoidance while castigating others for what you are doing.

Projection is a bitch.

Ignorance is catchy.

Take it away with you like the stink of Feminist Supremacy.

All you talk is your opinion, zero facts behind, when the facts are argued your word is they are not facts...when your own words are used against you, they are not cogent... What's saddest is you do not see how your own words about you, from the ass backwards, tells us you think you are not relevant.

Yeah, yeah...tell me how that's "Man's Logic" while you pray for attack dogs to back you up on your "Points"(read strawman and if not then Epic Failure) with their Feminist talking points. The fact is that it's horrible in the third world countries...FOR ALL people. Focusing on women is a pity plea that is as invalid as your unbacked opinions. When women die at the rate MEN do around the world and don't outnumber men then we'll start considering treating them as an endangered species. But you can't change the facts with pleas to emotion your Gender Feminism wants to say are unnnecessary!

Why does a group that outnumbers men, and supposedly as strong, smart,(fill in the blank) as men need specialized protection? They don't.

Why don't the numbers of female deaths equal those of men...feminists could give a rat shit.

Why don't women commit suicide as much as men? Who cares, they are men!

Why do you have to focus into ONE cultural area to show SO many female infant deaths? Because in all the others, especially where Male Genital Mutilation is allowed, baby boy deaths are significantly HIGHER.

Pleas for attention are calls to White Knights and Manginas to stand up and take the drubbing for women, because in al cultures the Male Disposability factor gets men dead in the honor of female protection.

Fact is, I am sorry any child ends up dead for callous reasons of any kind. But I'll just have to leave the gynocentric fiddle faddle to you and your ilk. The well of sympathy here is running dry in the face of real numbers and real facts about how men are suffering to make the world better for you, and it's still not good enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9G9AAhlMo4&feature=context&context=G28d973dFAAAAAAAAIAA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gekyg7yy4Dc&feature=related

When you're done with those, which are BTW done by a WOMAN who is also a mother, I'll link more if you have the courage to look where your dogmatic acceptance of the mythical patriarchy DARE not let you look.

To steal a line from Frank Herbert,"Look at that place..the one you dare not look and you will fine ME there staring back at you!"

why do you hate women Ian?

[æonpax]

[FONT="Arial Narrow"{snipped for brvity}.[/FONT]



tl;dr - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Too_long;_didn%27t_read

[JP1986UM]

I've learned one important thing reading this thread I never knew:

Male babies are dying from being circumcised.

Swear to god that's what I got out of this thread.....:male:

[æonpax]

why do you hate women Ian?

For myself, I have given scant attention to this gentleman in question, other than to say his garrulous posts are reminiscent of a small aggregate of anachronistic men here, whom I refer to, in general terms, as misogynistic. As the word ‘hate’ has become cliché by being used so often and so improperly in describing motivation, that dislike or mistrust sometimes seem more suitable as both men & woman can be guilty of gender bias, in varying degrees.

With the influx and empowerment of Latino’s, Blacks and other minorities in this country and the ascension of the woman as an equal to men, culturally in the US, it appears the WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) male feels his long-time dominance threatened and a small group (as exemplified in this thread) are lashing out. These are predominantly, but not exclusively, your over 55 bunch. Coming to grips with these inevitable changes in our culture, is difficult for some. To paraphrase Dylan Thomas; “they are NOT going gently into that good night.” Metaphorically, one can almost see them raging against the “dying of the light.”

Compassion and understanding are key here while they go through this difficult period in their lives.

[pepperjack]

For myself, I have given scant attention to this gentleman in question, other than to say his garrulous posts are reminiscent of a small aggregate of anachronistic men here, whom I refer to, in general terms, as misogynistic. As the word ‘hate’ has become cliché by being used so often and so improperly in describing motivation, that dislike or mistrust sometimes seem more suitable as both men & woman can be guilty of gender bias, in varying degrees.

With the influx and empowerment of Latino’s, Blacks and other minorities in this country and the ascension of the woman as an equal to men, culturally in the US, it appears the WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) male feels his long-time dominance threatened and a small group (as exemplified in this thread) are lashing out. These are predominantly, but not exclusively, your over 55 bunch. Coming to grips with these inevitable changes in our culture, is difficult for some. To paraphrase Dylan Thomas; “they are NOT going gently into that good night.” Metaphorically, one can almost see them raging against the “dying of the light.”

Compassion and understanding are key here while they go through this difficult period in their lives.

I could give you a couple of examples of the new "breed" of man out there these days. Both are 40 year olds still living at home with mommy, rent free although they work. One spends most of his free time playing computer games. The other recently blew half of a $5000 loan he acquired to fix his debt on lap dances from a stripper he's fixated on. I'm in the over 55 bunch and don't hate women at all; I have always liked and enjoyed women. I have an especially tender heart for little old ladies and sweet little girls and for some reason get along with black women particularly well. I don't feel threatened, nor am I raging; I'm calmly bending with the wind.

[void()]

tl;dr - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Too_long;_didn%27t_read

Not my problem, but yours. Everything was responded to and well articulated. But you did not want to read, after telling me to articulate. Boy aren't you a peach. Keep on all you want, plain enough to see.

[IanBorthwick]

why do you hate women Ian?

This one got past me but I was informed of it by one of my many friends here on the site. Rather than give this accusation couched in a temperate and kind question that it is clearly NOT, or to even ask where in all I have said or done on the thread here that indicates a hate of women whenI have said nothing more than women should be treated as they ask and not as children, and how that correlates to a valid accusation of hate, instead I will show this is what is common in Feminism these days. An attempt to cast blame off themselves when a valid argument is written and their own puerility is exposed they resort to the Code language.

This one is:Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)/Charge of Misogyny (Code Black)

An attempt to DARVO(Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) to obfuscate the issue and make a MAN seem like the problem rather than actions of WOMEN. It's pathetic, and I do not need to draw it out for the educated mind.

IF you should feel the need to drive anymore distracting insults about my Masculinity, my Views on feminism and it's destructive qualities and how YOU foster keeping them treated as children by your mangina tactics, go to:

http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/



For myself, I have given scant attention to this gentleman in question, other than to say his garrulous posts are reminiscent of a small aggregate of anachronistic men here, whom I refer to, in general terms, as misogynistic. As the word ‘hate’ has become cliché by being used so often and so improperly in describing motivation, that dislike or mistrust sometimes seem more suitable as both men & woman can be guilty of gender bias, in varying degrees.

With the influx and empowerment of Latino’s, Blacks and other minorities in this country and the ascension of the woman as an equal to men, culturally in the US, it appears the WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) male feels his long-time dominance threatened and a small group (as exemplified in this thread) are lashing out. These are predominantly, but not exclusively, your over 55 bunch. Coming to grips with these inevitable changes in our culture, is difficult for some. To paraphrase Dylan Thomas; “they are NOT going gently into that good night.” Metaphorically, one can almost see them raging against the “dying of the light.”

Compassion and understanding are key here while they go through this difficult period in their lives.

But I saved the best for last, coming full circle to the person who wants to seem aloof and above it all. Aeon. In her feminist attempt to seem beyond the reach of the issues I have pushed BACK at her, including the reality that the WOMEN did the KILLING and somehow this is blood on Men's Hands has not been even dealt with. Each time a new argument came up, I turned it back on its head and asked for answers that were never dealt with only brushed aside with more appeals for emotion rather than factual attempts to look at the issue at hand.

Where I live has nothing to do with my life, my arguments or my fact driven posts. That I live in Lancaster, with my wife and 2 children, in a home I am paying for on the back of 4 jobs I hold does not make me more of a man. And if it DID make me more of a man in your eyes, I could give a rat shit. Because BEING a man should be about what I do FOR a woman, though that's how feminist and chauvinistic society has forced it into your consciousness that a man is a man by what he gives but a woman is a woman merely being born.

This last post ran the gamut of accusations from Anachronism(Charge of Cowardice, Code Yellow), to the loss of Fictional Privilege(Charge of Hypersensitivity,Code Blue) which I have resoundingly disproven via the issues we we are forced to deal with without societal support, to the not acting my age (Charge of Puerility,Code Green), to the claim of small factions of Fanatics (Charge of Fanaticism,Code Brown), to the claims of being stuck at home with Mama (Charge of Invirility,Code Lavender)rather than investigating what I have said and turning this BACK on the women who placed this drivel on the page.

Not ONCE were any of my questions answered. Not ONCE were my fact driven points addressed. Not ONCE were my valid arguments even pondered or responded to. No, instead the shaming, lies, rhetoric and just plain bullshit were in full force as she attempted the Mother Theresa appeal to look morally superior.

Sorry, Aeon, it failed. Because in the end you still want someone else to take the blame for the mothers who you admitted LAUGHINGLY recounted murdering their own daughters and ignored how I said it's horrible they were killed by their MOTHERS!

HOW IS THIS THE FAULT OF MEN WHEN WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE EQUAL TO A MAN AND HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS? HOW IS SCAPEGOATING MEN FOR THE ACTIONS OF WOMEN TAKING ACTION? HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE THESE WOMEN LOOK LIKE YOU ARE TREATING THEM LIKE CHILDREN INCAPABLE OF ACTION ON THEIR OWN? HOW CAN YU SAY THIS IS THE FAULT OF MEN WHEN IT'S THEIR MOTHER WHO WANTS A MALE CHILD TO TAKE CARE OF THEM IN THEIR OLD AGE WHEN THEIR HUSBAND HAS DIED SINCE MEN DIE EARLIER THAN WOMEN?

You have failed, you haven't ably addressed any of my points at all. You resorted to shaming attacks on ME and not the facts, and in the real world that makes you the automatic loser of the argument at hand. Use the link I gave you all and look over your shaming tactics first. Grow up a little, broaden your horizon and see how you pretending Men are the sole blame for your mythical patriarchical suppression will solve nothing.

Feminism is a hate movement, designed to blame men for all the worlds ills. If it weren't about hate and special privilege, you'd call yourself something else than a feminist...

...you'd call yourself an egalitarian.

Stick that one in your pipe and smoke it for a while.

[keefer728]

This one got past me but I was informed of it by one of my many friends here on the site. Rather than give this accusation couched in a temperate and kind question that it is clearly NOT, or to even ask where in all I have said or done on the thread here that indicates a hate of women whenI have said nothing more than women should be treated as they ask and not as children, and how that correlates to a valid accusation of hate, instead I will show this is what is common in Feminism these days. An attempt to cast blame off themselves when a valid argument is written and their own puerility is exposed they resort to the Code language.

This one is:Charge of Irascibility (Code Red)/Charge of Misogyny (Code Black)

An attempt to DARVO(Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender) to obfuscate the issue and make a MAN seem like the problem rather than actions of WOMEN. It's pathetic, and I do not need to draw it out for the educated mind.

IF you should feel the need to drive anymore distracting insults about my Masculinity, my Views on feminism and it's destructive qualities and how YOU foster keeping them treated as children by your mangina tactics, go to:

http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics/



But I saved the best for last, coming full circle to the person who wants to seem aloof and above it all. Aeon. In her feminist attempt to seem beyond the reach of the issues I have pushed BACK at her, including the reality that the WOMEN did the KILLING and somehow this is blood on Men's Hands has not been even dealt with. Each time a new argument came up, I turned it back on its head and asked for answers that were never dealt with only brushed aside with more appeals for emotion rather than factual attempts to look at the issue at hand.

Where I live has nothing to do with my life, my arguments or my fact driven posts. That I live in Lancaster, with my wife and 2 children, in a home I am paying for on the back of 4 jobs I hold does not make me more of a man. And if it DID make me more of a man in your eyes, I could give a rat shit. Because BEING a man should be about what I do FOR a woman, though that's how feminist and chauvinistic society has forced it into your consciousness that a man is a man by what he gives but a woman is a woman merely being born.

This last post ran the gamut of accusations from Anachronism(Charge of Cowardice, Code Yellow), to the loss of Fictional Privilege(Charge of Hypersensitivity,Code Blue) which I have resoundingly disproven via the issues we we are forced to deal with without societal support, to the not acting my age (Charge of Puerility,Code Green), to the claim of small factions of Fanatics (Charge of Fanaticism,Code Brown), to the claims of being stuck at home with Mama (Charge of Invirility,Code Lavender)rather than investigating what I have said and turning this BACK on the women who placed this drivel on the page.

Not ONCE were any of my questions answered. Not ONCE were my fact driven points addressed. Not ONCE were my valid arguments even pondered or responded to. No, instead the shaming, lies, rhetoric and just plain bullshit were in full force as she attempted the Mother Theresa appeal to look morally superior.

Sorry, Aeon, it failed. Because in the end you still want someone else to take the blame for the mothers who you admitted LAUGHINGLY recounted murdering their own daughters and ignored how I said it's horrible they were killed by their MOTHERS!

HOW IS THIS THE FAULT OF MEN WHEN WOMEN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE EQUAL TO A MAN AND HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS? HOW IS SCAPEGOATING MEN FOR THE ACTIONS OF WOMEN TAKING ACTION? HOW DOES THIS NOT MAKE THESE WOMEN LOOK LIKE YOU ARE TREATING THEM LIKE CHILDREN INCAPABLE OF ACTION ON THEIR OWN? HOW CAN YU SAY THIS IS THE FAULT OF MEN WHEN IT'S THEIR MOTHER WHO WANTS A MALE CHILD TO TAKE CARE OF THEM IN THEIR OLD AGE WHEN THEIR HUSBAND HAS DIED SINCE MEN DIE EARLIER THAN WOMEN?

You have failed, you haven't ably addressed any of my points at all. You resorted to shaming attacks on ME and not the facts, and in the real world that makes you the automatic loser of the argument at hand. Use the link I gave you all and look over your shaming tactics first. Grow up a little, broaden your horizon and see how you pretending Men are the sole blame for your mythical patriarchical suppression will solve nothing.

Feminism is a hate movement, designed to blame men for all the worlds ills. If it weren't about hate and special privilege, you'd call yourself something else than a feminist...

...you'd call yourself an egalitarian.

Stick that one in your pipe and smoke it for a while.

On my feet and giving Ian a standing ovation. Brilliantly spoken and well placed. BRAVO! I will note that Marie is a bigot of the first class, she can't help herself. She shocked about ten of us in the chat room one day on her blatant racist remarks concerning Jews. Now Aeon.....well, now she is a story of a whole other thought. If I got her right, piecing together several things she has said here in threads and in the chat room, she is the mother of three and the parent of none of them. Does it make you wonder why she would be so blatantly pissed off at society after she sold her womb for a buck.

[drugstore cowboy]

On my feet and giving Ian a standing ovation. Brilliantly spoken and well placed. BRAVO! I will note that Marie is a bigot of the first class, she can't help herself. She shocked about ten of us in the chat room one day on her blatant racist remarks concerning Jews. Now Aeon.....well, now she is a story of a whole other thought. If I got her right, piecing together several things she has said here in threads and in the chat room, she is the mother of three and the parent of none of them. Does it make you wonder why she would be so blatantly pissed off at society after she sold her womb for a buck.

Which Marie is this and what did she say?

[void()]

I could give you a couple of examples of the new "breed" of man out there these days. Both are 40 year olds still living at home with mommy, rent free although they work. One spends most of his free time playing computer games. The other recently blew half of a $5000 loan he acquired to fix his debt on lap dances from a stripper he's fixated on. I'm in the over 55 bunch and don't hate women at all; I have always liked and enjoyed women. I have an especially tender heart for little old ladies and sweet little girls and for some reason get along with black women particularly well. I don't feel threatened, nor am I raging; I'm calmly bending with the wind.

"I could give you a couple of examples of the new "breed" of man out there these days. Both are 40 year olds still living at home with mommy, rent free although they work. One spends most of his free time playing computer games."


ROFL

Not sure if you were pointing my way or not. Really doesn't matter. Just think it is funny how folks can take splinters from people's eyes when they got a plank in their own. Like you, I only know what I read here. Unless you care to elaborate on some divined knowledge you think you may have?

[pepperjack]

"I could give you a couple of examples of the new "breed" of man out there these days. Both are 40 year olds still living at home with mommy, rent free although they work. One spends most of his free time playing computer games."


ROFL

Not sure if you were pointing my way or not. Really doesn't matter. Just think it is funny how folks can take splinters from people's eyes when they got a plank in their own. Like you, I only know what I read here. Unless you care to elaborate on some divined knowledge you think you may have?

NO, Void, your paranoia at work,once again! I was referencing people in my personal life not connected to you at all. I thought you & I had reached a level of peace, agreement.:confused:

[æonpax]

I could give you a couple of examples of the new "breed" of man out there these days. Both are 40 year olds still living at home with mommy, rent free although they work. One spends most of his free time playing computer games. The other recently blew half of a $5000 loan he acquired to fix his debt on lap dances from a stripper he's fixated on. I'm in the over 55 bunch and don't hate women at all; I have always liked and enjoyed women. I have an especially tender heart for little old ladies and sweet little girls and for some reason get along with black women particularly well. I don't feel threatened, nor am I raging; I'm calmly bending with the wind.


These are predominantly, but not exclusively, your over 55 bunch.

Simply put, you are not part of that group then. I can make a case that men over 55, "dominate", both demographically and statistically, an "aggregate" group of males whom are resistant to the cultural changes in the US, as I outlined. But by no means does it imply "all" men in that category and it certainly does not apply to "all" men regardless of age, nationality and faith.

Also, while there are exceptions, gender equality is just not a big issue with the younger generation.

[æonpax]

Not my problem, but yours. Everything was responded to and well articulated. But you did not want to read, after telling me to articulate. Boy aren't you a peach. Keep on all you want, plain enough to see.

By convention, internet forums are for "casual" discussions, not a full-blown treatise about particular concerns you have, especially when it's off-topic. Articulate and learned you may be, but also dogmatic and garrulous.

My response, tl;dr, used in this context, is a civil and polite "blow off" meaning, you have strayed way too far from the original topic and I no longer have interest in the tact you are pursing.

[void()]

By convention, internet forums are for "casual" discussions, not a full-blown treatise about particular concerns you have, especially when it's off-topic. Articulate and learned you may be, but also dogmatic and garrulous.

My response, tl;dr, used in this context, is a civil and polite "blow off" meaning, you have strayed way too far from the original topic and I no longer have interest in the tact you are pursing.

Exactly because my points were a direct and clear rebuttal of your own. Of course, you'll 'blow' that 'off'.

[void()]

NO, Void, your paranoia at work,once again! I was referencing people in my personal life not connected to you at all. I thought you & I had reached a level of peace, agreement.:confused:

LOL We obviously have. I'm still speaking with you.

[pepperjack]

LOL We obviously have. I'm still speaking with you.

OK; but if it " didn't really matter ", then why make that cryptic post to begin with? And why did you paraphrase something Jesus said after recently posting you had turned against Christianity? I can't understand why you perceive a harmless comment on my part as a personal attack. Beyond paranoia, maybe I should be thinking of Poe's tell-tale-heart?:cool:

[void()]

OK; but if it " didn't really matter ", then why make that cryptic post to begin with? And why did you paraphrase something Jesus said after recently posting you had turned against Christianity? I can't understand why you perceive a harmless comment on my part as a personal attack. Beyond paranoia, maybe I should be thinking of Poe's tell-tale-heart?:cool:

OK; but if it " didn't really matter ", then why make that cryptic post to begin with?

Kind of wondering that myself. Probably due to some odd rationale of conversation.

And why did you paraphrase something Jesus said after recently posting you had turned against Christianity?

I am not Christian. That does not imply I am against it, though I'm sure Christianity likely sees it as such. Great teachers can be, and often are cited to alliterate a point. Wisdom belongs to all not merely an exclusive group or individual.

I can't understand why you perceive a harmless comment on my part as a personal attack.

Actually did not consider it a personal attack. Sorry for commenting on the irony.

Beyond paranoia, maybe I should be thinking of Poe's tell-tale-heart?

Maybe, maybe not. Either way you might be right, or wrong. Got an expression here. "Gonna rain?" "50% Chance, always."

[BiBrandon]

Racism from the OP, not surprising. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4dtmxsiuL1qdj2ybo1_400.jpg

[falcondfw]

Racism from the OP, not surprising. http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m4dtmxsiuL1qdj2ybo1_400.jpg

Brandon,
What the f was the point of dredging up a thread that no one has posted on in 6 months just to say that?