Disrespect and warfare..

[darkeyes]

Max had a thread going 'bout the incident re US marines being silly buggers and weeing on dead Afgans.. he called it "Golden Showers"... Drew has deleted the thread for why I have no idea... perhaps he will explain in time now I have asked the question... surely it cant be because it is sub judice.. the press is full of it and we discuss and always have many ongoing cases of criminal wrong doing and general stupidity..

Most will be aware of my hatred of warfare and my pacifism... so I extend the debate which Max began by referring you all to this link...

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-this-is-not-about-bad-apples-this-is-the-horror-of-war-6289046.html

The writer of the article asks some very important questions and makes what in my view are very good points.. why do we talk of bad apples when we discover our soldiers or marines acting stupidly? Is it just that they have been caught out and so pay the price of abandonment by the establishment of whatever military it happens to be? Has Fisk not hit the nail on the head in what he says about the way we think of warfare and by concentrating on little if serious incidents such as the one Max brought to our attention.. we go along with the dishonesty of warfare altogether by ignoring all the other incidents even more serious which occur in war... are they not bad apples, but just those who have been caught out doing what soldiers throughout the ages have done.. and will do again in times yet to come? Are we guilty of exceptionalism? I am pretty sure the militaries of all nations are and their Governments.. but are we responsible for that because we neither do not know or want to know.. and do we care??

..and please no word of my anti americanism here cos it is simply not true.. cos if u care to read the article you will see there aware several incidents and appalling atrocities committed by the soldiers of my own country.. one in particular of which I knew nothing but which completely horrified me...

[bigbadmax]

I thoroughly agree Fran,

I worked with several sneaky beaky's in the past and the things I heard just on the Gibraltar incident (shooting in broad daylight of IRA member) were spine chilling.

I am however happy to kowtow for drews piecw of mind(for a few weeks) and will behave, as I dont like the naughty step :bowdown:

[tenni]

I think that there is disrespect to the opposition in warfare but we can only hold our own side to accountability. It must be hard under war situations and things have happened in previous wars. Since some nation took a rather bad interpretation of the Geneva Conventions, it might be good if the UN revised them. Still, those who chose to treat the captured and dead enemy will ignore it. War is insanity.

[pepperjack]

I thoroughly agree Fran,

I worked with several sneaky beaky's in the past and the things I heard just on the Gibraltar incident (shooting in broad daylight of IRA member) were spine chilling.

I am however happy to kowtow for drews piecw of mind(for a few weeks) and will behave, as I dont like the naughty step :bowdown:

Simple explanation is because the surfacing of that video is incredibly bad timing with current escalating tension between U.S. & Iran & negotiations for peace with the Taliban. Makes one wonder if it's deliberate.:cool:

[Realist]

A couple of reporters were discussing the photos, Today. One said that there was no urine streams, or penises visible, in that photo.

I could see nothing, either, but even the simulation is certainly something that was pretty stupid to photograph!

[Light_and_Dark]

In response to the op it is not a matter of Military forces behaving that way in general and only the ones getting caught being laid to dry...it really is a case of bad apples...either soldiers so decimated by ptsd that it can crack who they are or soldiers that join the military for the wrong reasons...those are what create situations that become a disgrace to military personnel everywhere.


LOL

[Darkside2009]

A couple of reporters were discussing the photos, Today. One said that there was no urine streams, or penises visible, in that photo.

I could see nothing, either, but even the simulation is certainly something that was pretty stupid to photograph!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I couldn't see any streams of urine or penises on show either. I think they were just showing off and simulating it for the camera, in some kind of trophy ritual.

Much like those who stick the heads of animals they have killed on their walls.

The Taliban destroyed a large reclining figure of a Bhudda with explosives, that had been in existence for a few hundred years. Other extremists have posted videos of Westerners having their throats cut, and posted those videos on the Internet.

The IRA squealed when their three members were killed in Gibraltar, but tried to excuse themselves for bombing a Remembrance Day Ceremony in Northern Ireland.

Cultural sensitivity, or rather lack of it, is not confined to one Nation, or one Race of people.

[darkeyes]

I see we continue to chit chat around the wee wee incident... contemptible and contemptuous as it is is Fisk's point.. that there are no bad apples only that warring is a shitty, evil, nasty and horrific business, and that there is no honour in it, and on the contrary, honour is the exception rather than the rule; that incidents such as happened in the "golden showers" affair, real or simulated, is only one among many that are the general rule of warfare, but used by governments and military to make warfare palatable to the population at large by attempting to illustrate that little incidents of a shitty nature are not the norm, when in fact by the very nature of warfare they and many other incidents of "bad applery" far worse and infinitely more horrific, are...

[Diva667]

Isn't killing someone the ultimate in disrespect?

I see this as part and parcel to warfare. Especially those guerrilla and terrorist wars. Sometimes it is made-up stories for propaganda (by either side) sometimes it is fact turned into propaganda.

Abu Ghraib is a good example of something that was turned into propaganda, but stemmed from fact.

It's not something new, just a continuing aspect of warfare (think Achilles and Hector at Troy.)

[darkeyes]

Isn't killing someone the ultimate in disrespect?

I see this as part and parcel to warfare. Especially those guerrilla and terrorist wars. Sometimes it is made-up stories for propaganda (by either side) sometimes it is fact turned into propaganda.



Yes it is.. disrespect of human life, freedom of thought and the right to live in peace for a start...

.. but if any cares to think back on other posts I have made, I put all warring organisations and institutions for the purposes of this discussion and any discussion on the general principle of war on the same footing... whether it be the United Kingdom, Israel or Russia as states, and their armed forces, or the Taliban, Hamas or the Chechen separatists and the forces they have at their disposal for the purposes of carrying out war and violence in pursuit of a cause..

[Hephaestion]

.......Isn't killing someone the ultimate in disrespect?......



It is fairly bad mannered

[nudeorphic]

Having been in the military over 20 years I will say that there are rules, laws for war and conduct when engaged in war. Enemy soldiers must be treated with respect including fallen enemy soldiers. I use soldiers in a general sense we could split hairs and say terrorists, Taliban, etc., but it does not matter they are enemy combatants.
What happened in that incident was wrong and must not be tolerated.
Any incident like that drags down all service members who serve honorably and obey the laws of war. It taints us and I hate it.
Now if you look at the military as a whole it is a reflection of society but in a smaller scale. You will have alcoholics, gays, bisexuals, wife beaters, gamblers, etc., You will also have stupid individuals who act out wrongly. How do we correct it?
Applying the appropriate punishment. Training. And more training.
Myself, I'm not a pacifist. I own guns, I shoot at ranges-I will protect myself. But I also know the law as well.

[darkeyes]

As many will be aware am a big footie person... not soccer me luffly 'merican chums... footie.. 2 day tootled along to Tynceastle wiv me dad daughter an bruvva an 'is lil boy an watched the Jambos give the Buddies a gud ole humpin'..

At half time as me dad an bro tootled off 2 get the pies an bovril an wos left on me own cos the kids wer off 2 the loo... wos thinkin of the 1st half wich wasnt partic brutal as football games go, but in2 me mind flashed this thread an I began to think of footie and war.. cos make no mistake footie is about as brutal as I ever think war should be.. dunno why we cant settle our differences through a gud game of football.. sat an watched 22 guys at times kick lumps out of each other, niggle an' show scant respect for the guys on the other side... as well of course showing bugger all for the ref or linesmen.. oops soz.. assistant referees... the ref an 'is m8s bein sort of the UN peace negotiators wen it comes to footie.. everybody h8s the ref.. bit like not that many like the UN pokin ther ore in.. the fans of course have no time for the enemy or the officials nor in fact sevral members of ther own side.. management included..often espesh management..

..so ne way.. got 2 thinkin.. if 22 guys an a few officials cant get respect or treat each other with respect for a relatively peaceful past-time like football, where loyalties and passions do get worked up, an the blood boils, is it surprisin that wen faced with a blood bath like proper warfare they dont give a shite 'bout their opponents or ne 1 else who gets in the way..???

Sport has often been considered a substitute for conflict and war.. footie was once even the catalyst for a war in the Caribbean... I considered what I watched 2day and the relatively peaceful things I saw and heard and it confirmed in my mind what I have always known about war.. that it is an immoral and wasteful act of stupidity no matter the justice of the cause.. and it confirms me in me suspicion that Robert Fisk is right... exceptionalism exists for a reason.. to exonerate the powers that be and the military in the minds of the people, and to keep the people on side by thinking they are in the right and a bit better than the enemy.. it confirms me in my suspicion that with regard to exceptionalism, such as it exists, is that honour and respect are the exceptions in warfare... not the rule...

[pepperjack]

General Armstrong Custer was not the glamorous figure history has erroneously portrayed him as. He saw the Indians as beneath the animals and was despised by both his fellow and superior officers. And there are historical accounts of cavalry soldiers decimating villages of peaceful tribes and playing catch with the severed breasts of the women afterwards. So, who were the actual "savages?":cool:

[æonpax]

Fran,

This entire urination incident smells of a set-up. The US Military has very tight control on what goes in and out of their theaters of operations. It's conceivable that this incident was deliberately leaked and spread about by the corporate controlled media to provoke some kind of action, specifically out of Iran.

The US military, in concert with the corporations, has been systematically sowing the seeds of war with Iran and priming the US public for it's eventuality.


http://i.imgur.com/Wrkkc.jpg

[darkeyes]

Fran,

This entire urination incident smells of a set-up. The US Military has very tight control on what goes in and out of their theaters of operations. It's conceivable that this incident was deliberately leaked and spread about by the corporate controlled media to provoke some kind of action, specifically out of Iran.

The US military, in concert with the corporations, has been systematically sowing the seeds of war with Iran and priming the US public for it's eventuality.


http://i.imgur.com/Wrkkc.jpg

I am scared enough to think ur right, æon... I've heard the drums of war beating an' here 2... Iran however isnt a lil 2 bit country of 15 or 20 mill.. Iran willl be a whole new ball game.. 70 millions peeps.. Iran and Afghanistan will seem like sunday school picnics compared to any war with Iran.. an' the alienation of much of the rest of the Islamic world will continue as the western "crusade" against Islam continues... maybe that clock that Pepper was talkin bout should be moved forward another minute or 2...

.. now 'scuse me.. have another war 2 fight mesel... makin' mesel gorge for a nite out gets harder ever week:(..

[nudeorphic]

Darkeyes-Western "crusade" against Islam.
Ok, you have thrown the gauntlet in the ring. Here is my assessment of Islam:
Islam is the most dangerous force in the world today. It is an ideology using political, legal and military tactics to take over countries one by one. It is an ideology disguised as a religion.
On the legal and political side, it has already encroached in the United States. Recently, Islamists had a victory in Oklahoma for the introduction of Sharia law. Hopefully, that will be overturned. Islamists have attempted similar tactics in Europe. France pushed back relating to the burquas. Great Britain and Holland have caved.
As far as the military element it's in the form of terrorism if they don't get their own way.
One should look at Islam as a world wide threat to religious freedom. Many countries which have become Islamic don't allow other religions and spiritual practices. If allowed, other religions are taxed. We would not have this web site in an Islamic country. The penalty for bisexuality is death.
So before using the "crusade" word you have better research the Islamic time table for take over. Better yet I will look it up and copy and paste here.

[nudeorphic]

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=326:islams-working-to-world-domination&catid=89:other-authors&Itemid=58

Here you go pretty much a blueprint for world domination and they will not give up on the political and legal front.

But back to the main topic, no enemy combatant should be defiled.
..Pax makes a good point above. The Marines are one of the most disciplined forces we have. Hopefully the truth will come out.

[pepperjack]

Darkeyes-Western "crusade" against Islam.
Ok, you have thrown the gauntlet in the ring. Here is my assessment of Islam:
Islam is the most dangerous force in the world today. It is an ideology using political, legal and military tactics to take over countries one by one. It is an ideology disguised as a religion.
On the legal and political side, it has already encroached in the United States. Recently, Islamists had a victory in Oklahoma for the introduction of Sharia law. Hopefully, that will be overturned. Islamists have attempted similar tactics in Europe. France pushed back relating to the burquas. Great Britain and Holland have caved.
As far as the military element it's in the form of terrorism if they don't get their own way.
One should look at Islam as a world wide threat to religious freedom. Many countries which have become Islamic don't allow other religions and spiritual practices. If allowed, other religions are taxed. We would not have this web site in an Islamic country. The penalty for bisexuality is death.
So before using the "crusade" word you have better research the Islamic time table for take over. Better yet I will look it up and copy and paste here.

Agree with you 100%! It's disguised as peaceful but it's all about force & domination.

[pepperjack]

http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=326:islams-working-to-world-domination&catid=89:other-authors&Itemid=58

Here you go pretty much a blueprint for world domination and they will not give up on the political and legal front.

But back to the main topic, no enemy combatant should be defiled.
..Pax makes a good point above. The Marines are one of the most disciplined forces we have. Hopefully the truth will come out.

Something I have learned about Sharia law, a possible scenario: a 16 year old girl in a Muslim family with brothers,who becomes a rape victim; the male members of the family could petition to have her executed because she has "dishonored" the family:2cents:

[nudeorphic]

Pepperjack, "peace" in Islamic terms is when the world is under Islam. The one and only "religion" and way of life.

Charles the "Hammer" knew this and defeated the Moors at the Battle of Tours.

[pepperjack]

Pepperjack, "peace" in Islamic terms is when the world is under Islam. The one and only "religion" and way of life.

Charles the "Hammer" knew this and defeated the Moors at the Battle of Tours.

Don't you get it, Nude, I see eye to eye w/you? VERY interesting coincidence. I was nicknamed "The Hammer" back in the 80's as a truck driver.:cool:

[elian]

Come on guys, I will agree that the ideas and persuasive power of fundamental extremists can be very dangerous, but surely not EVERY Muslim is an extremist? Just like surely not EVERY Catholic believes that birth control is bad as directed by his holiness..

As far as war, well that's the thing about war, you have to have an enemy and to justify what you must do it is easier to vilify that enemy. War is hell, all sides suffer, there is no "winner" but when all other avenues fail sometimes it is the only thing left to do.

Aren't we in Afghanistan trying to protect the human rights of those Muslim people you all seem to think are so dangerous? I think we are, because the general civilian population, which happens to be mostly Muslim is basically being held hostage by some radical conservative factions of the same faith.

[elian]

Pepperjack, "peace" in Islamic terms is when the world is under Islam. The one and only "religion" and way of life.


Yeah, I think there are certain Christian sects that also believe the same thing, except replace the word "Islam" with "Christian".

Taking the Bible literally is a relatively modern phenomenon, there are certain groups who claim to do so but no matter how hard they try they still "carry out God's will" according to their own interpretation.

The Bible may be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man, and I've seen what the hand of man is capable of.

Either way, if I got caught loving a man I would be stoned to death.

[marie0021]

Soldiers are killing machines. Soldiers will be soldiers.

[nudeorphic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Martel

Pepperjack Charles Martel defeated the Moorish invasion at Tours in 732.
He knew that failure was not an option.

Soldiers are trained for warfare but, that's why we have laws determining proper conduct on the battlefield. It's up to the leaders to enforce them.

Islam stands alone in its quest for world domination.

[bigbadmax]

Soldiers are killing machines. Soldiers will be soldiers.

YOU ARE SO WRONG it is unbelievable how far from the mark you are on this comment.......British forces have the phrase "hearts and minds" you win these of a people, and you destroy the hold of the despot/dictator of that country.

We are not in the dark ages where we need to conquer lands for the hell of it ,but to aid our fellow human beings.Your comment sickens me and shows your lack of understanding of modern warfare principles.

[bigbadmax]

[QUOTE=nudeorphic;


Islam stands alone in its quest for world domination.[/QUOTE]

You are just anti Muslim...why hide behind a thin veil of contempt? Oh I'm sorry its anti American to be a Muslim....don't think so you biggot.

[elian]

Sorry I guess the conservatives were right, growing up I must've been brainwashed by the WHO and the liberal gay agenda. Must've watched too much much "Sesame Street" and "Mister Rogers Neighborhood". Can you believe that they actually tried to fill my head with some imaginary nonsense like "Jesus loves all people" ? What crap! Now that I'm an adult I finally know the truth - "God loves winners!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY7_ZwgoeJM

[keefer728]

You are just anti Muslim...why hide behind a thin veil of contempt? Oh I'm sorry its anti American to be a Muslim....don't think so you biggot.

Totally uncalled for, Max.

[marie0021]

YOU ARE SO WRONG it is unbelievable how far from the mark you are on this comment.......British forces have the phrase "hearts and minds" you win these of a people, and you destroy the hold of the despot/dictator of that country.

We are not in the dark ages where we need to conquer lands for the hell of it ,but to aid our fellow human beings.Your comment sickens me and shows your lack of understanding of modern warfare principles.

jajajaja win the hearts and minds of the people you are invading and bombing? omg you are delussional!!!

[æonpax]

Darkeyes-Western "crusade" against Islam.
<snipped for brevity>

In the US, the vast majority of those sounding the alarm against Islamism, are your conservative Christians, almost down to the last person. Most of those folk are undereducated on the Islamic faith and indoctrinated to believe what they are told. However, the issue here is Sharia law and again, I see an absolute lack of any insight and knowledge on what Sharia really is.

Like the Christians and their Bible, which throughout history, has been perverted and corrupted my men seeking to use it’s power over people, so too have men of Islam perverted and corrupted the Qur'an, through Sharia Law by an Islamic sect called the “Wahhabi.” http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm These people are every bit as dangerous as those evangelical Christians whom want US law to reflect their extremist interpretation of the Bible.

The problem’s of extreme Sharia law are well documented, especially heinous crimes against women. Nonetheless, while certain people rail against it, they do nothing to stop it. It should be noted that the US’s main Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, has integrated extreme Sharia law into their political structure. http://www.meforum.org/535/saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-wahhabi-threat

Extreme Sharia Law, like extreme Biblical law, have many points in common. See chart below.


http://i.imgur.com/5uthT.jpg

The only thing preventing the radical Christians from setting up a Theocracy in this nation, is the Constitution, which they are already starting to re-write according to their beliefs.

[pepperjack]

Come on guys, I will agree that the ideas and persuasive power of fundamental extremists can be very dangerous, but surely not EVERY Muslim is an extremist? Just like surely not EVERY Catholic believes that birth control is bad as directed by his holiness..

As far as war, well that's the thing about war, you have to have an enemy and to justify what you must do it is easier to vilify that enemy. War is hell, all sides suffer, there is no "winner" but when all other avenues fail sometimes it is the only thing left to do.

Aren't we in Afghanistan trying to protect the human rights of those Muslim people you all seem to think are so dangerous? I think we are, because the general civilian population, which happens to be mostly Muslim is basically being held hostage by some radical conservative factions of the same faith.

Agree with you here. Akin to a Klan member in our Bible Belt who professes to be "God-fearing.":cool:

[Light_and_Dark]

Sorry aeon for once i find your post uneducated in and of itself..It is not Christian extremists that belief in line with what you believe. Those would be extremists that merely use Christianity as their shield rights.

Secondly Biblical laws are biblical laws..No where among CHRISTIAN biblical laws does it state to degrade or treat woman as objects. Nor does it state anything about technology being evil. Drinking is not prohibited merely stated to do in moderation, those among other things have nothing to do with the Christian bible. Besides isn't this thread about warfare and not religion?

[pepperjack]

In the US, the vast majority of those sounding the alarm against Islamism, are your conservative Christians, almost down to the last person. Most of those folk are undereducated on the Islamic faith and indoctrinated to believe what they are told. However, the issue here is Sharia law and again, I see an absolute lack of any insight and knowledge on what Sharia really is.

Like the Christians and their Bible, which throughout history, has been perverted and corrupted my men seeking to use it’s power over people, so too have men of Islam perverted and corrupted the Qur'an, through Sharia Law by an Islamic sect called the “Wahhabi.” http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm These people are every bit as dangerous as those evangelical Christians whom want US law to reflect their extremist interpretation of the Bible.

The problem’s of extreme Sharia law are well documented, especially heinous crimes against women. Nonetheless, while certain people rail against it, they do nothing to stop it. It should be noted that the US’s main Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, has integrated extreme Sharia law into their political structure. http://www.meforum.org/535/saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-wahhabi-threat

Extreme Sharia Law, like extreme Biblical law, have many points in common. See chart below.


http://i.imgur.com/5uthT.jpg

The only thing preventing the radical Christians from setting up a Theocracy in this nation, is the Constitution, which they are already starting to re-write according to their beliefs.

Seems to me like you're pretty extreme, radical! And as for perversion of truth & fact, that's what your chart appears to be.:rolleyes:

[pepperjack]

In the US, the vast majority of those sounding the alarm against Islamism, are your conservative Christians, almost down to the last person. Most of those folk are undereducated on the Islamic faith and indoctrinated to believe what they are told. However, the issue here is Sharia law and again, I see an absolute lack of any insight and knowledge on what Sharia really is.

Like the Christians and their Bible, which throughout history, has been perverted and corrupted my men seeking to use it’s power over people, so too have men of Islam perverted and corrupted the Qur'an, through Sharia Law by an Islamic sect called the “Wahhabi.” http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm These people are every bit as dangerous as those evangelical Christians whom want US law to reflect their extremist interpretation of the Bible.

The problem’s of extreme Sharia law are well documented, especially heinous crimes against women. Nonetheless, while certain people rail against it, they do nothing to stop it. It should be noted that the US’s main Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, has integrated extreme Sharia law into their political structure. http://www.meforum.org/535/saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-wahhabi-threat

Extreme Sharia Law, like extreme Biblical law, have many points in common. See chart below.


http://i.imgur.com/5uthT.jpg

The only thing preventing the radical Christians from setting up a Theocracy in this nation, is the Constitution, which they are already starting to re-write according to their beliefs.

"Even as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -----Jesus "Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant;they too have their story." ------Desiderata (written by someone much more intelligent than you).:cool:

[bigbadmax]

jajajaja win the hearts and minds of the people you are invading and bombing? omg you are delussional!!!

Having served in the middle east, and seen first hand the poverty and deprivation that the excluded religions/politacal standpoints/opposition peoples have had to endure, I think that the "intervention" whether called for justly or not has IMPROVED a large majority of theses countries.

Have you ever seen a 3 yr old boy begging for ANY food that he can take home to his familly? We used to pool our rations, so as to give it away on the streets....not UNICEF's, WHO, NATO's or whatever you wish to call it, OUR FOOD.

The old phrase springs to mind "ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die"...some of the images of torture by the then puppeteers was so devsating, I still have nightmares.......women raped, children tortured men dismembered..... Marie, I would strongly suggest you check out your history on how your country behaved in it's civil war not so far back in history and then have the decency to not prejudge ALL forces, especially when you ARE TOTALLY UNAWARE of the ethos of modern warfare.

And dont think it was a comfortable war in IRAQ, nor Afghanistan today...no Raybans in gift boxes or chocolate from home.....We had no food or water for the first 14 days......no showers, no latrines...just holes in the ground.... our medical supplies didnt come for 28 days so we had to improvise , adapt and overcome...what decent supplies we had were "confiscated" by brigade.

Funny old thing......Invading.......mmmm would the Libyan's say it was an invasion??????

[darkeyes]

.... an' the alienation of much of the rest of the Islamic world will continue as the western "crusade" against Islam continues...

Think me lufflies why I put the word "crusade" inside inverted commas.. think why I simply did not say crusade... then some of you consider your words and consider why the Islamic world thinks it is a western crusade....

[void()]

Darkeyes-Western "crusade" against Islam.
Ok, you have thrown the gauntlet in the ring. Here is my assessment of Islam:
Islam is the most dangerous force in the world today. It is an ideology using political, legal and military tactics to take over countries one by one. It is an ideology disguised as a religion.
On the legal and political side, it has already encroached in the United States. Recently, Islamists had a victory in Oklahoma for the introduction of Sharia law. Hopefully, that will be overturned. Islamists have attempted similar tactics in Europe. France pushed back relating to the burquas. Great Britain and Holland have caved.
As far as the military element it's in the form of terrorism if they don't get their own way.
One should look at Islam as a world wide threat to religious freedom. Many countries which have become Islamic don't allow other religions and spiritual practices. If allowed, other religions are taxed. We would not have this web site in an Islamic country. The penalty for bisexuality is death.
So before using the "crusade" word you have better research the Islamic time table for take over. Better yet I will look it up and copy and paste here.


Really ought to clarify.

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2010/11/03/128074/oklahoma-sharia-law/?mobile=nc

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-11-29/us/oklahoma.sharia.law_1_sharia-law-state-courts-international-law?_s=PM:US

http://jurist.org/hotline/2010/11/oklahoma-ban-of-sharia-deems-Islam-as-un-american.php

http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/02/13_states_introduce_bills_to_ban_sharia_law.html

Four links all stating the state/s are forbidding not accepting Sharia law. Show me one where OK has adopted Sharia law. Seems kind of hysterical to me. Guess that's what fear does.

Crusade was in the English dictionary 150 years before jihad. Jihad was called for to repel the crusaders. That is an accepted historical fact on both sides of the fence. Seems to harken to the phrase of 'don't want trouble, don't start none' to me.

And the U.S. military doesn't use guerilla warfare, and forms of terrorism against enemies? Sorry, both sides reek of the stench of shit. You don't sleep with dogs and not get fleas. That's just common sense.

I am not condoning nor condemning either. Both ought to have known better, acted better. War is always wrong. No one really wins. All involved lose.

Most law used today in either of the two religions comes from Hammurabi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi). Because it influenced Assyrian, Mosaic law codes. It is likely to have influenced Zoroastrianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism), which in turn influenced Abraham religions and Mohamed ones as well.

Sorry to pop the bubble here. It all comes from one and we are all one. Wish everyone would soon get that through their fucking thick skulls.

[æonpax]

Sorry aeon for once i find your post uneducated in and of itself..It is not Christian extremists that belief in line with what you believe. Those would be extremists that merely use Christianity as their shield rights.

Secondly Biblical laws are biblical laws..No where among CHRISTIAN biblical laws does it state to degrade or treat woman as objects. Nor does it state anything about technology being evil. Drinking is not prohibited merely stated to do in moderation, those among other things have nothing to do with the Christian bible. Besides isn't this thread about warfare and not religion?

You are obviously unfamiliar with the practices of

1 – Christian Dominionism Theology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology and http://www.theocracywatch.org/dominionism.htm

2 – Christian Reconstructionalism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism and http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre1.html

3 – Christian Dispensationalism - http://www.theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism and http://www.theopedia.com/Dispensationalism

4 – The tenets of Christian Fundamentalism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity and http://seayj.people.cofc.edu/fundamentalism.html?referrer=webcluster&

However, I’ll forgo your unenlightenment on these topics because at the root of all of these “isms” is the Protestant belief in “Sola Scriptura” which is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. Therein lays the flaw to your argument.

Now aside from Catholicism, which does not adhere to “sola scriptura” there are some 38,000 Christian domination's (+/-) in the world, that do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations Each denomination has their own interpretation of the Bible, hence their own belief system, many of which directly clash with one another but all follow sola scriptura and many take the Bible literally…too literally in fact.

Another thing you casually discarded was my use of the phrase “extreme bible”. Now, what is considered extreme is obviously subjective but for me, such Christian extremism starts when theology overrides science and facts (ex: God made the earth and heavens, literally in six human days) and when the Bible is taken too literally as in men should have dominion over all things, such as women (Timothy 2:12) and (Genesis 1:28)…yeah, right!

I’ll admit, my chart is hyperbolic and as such, inaccurate, but I wanted to dramatize a point…a point I might add that you missed. I was simply saying; People who live in glass houses, shouldn’t throw stones.

In the GOP primaries, many of the candidates profess to believe in tenets of the Bible that go way beyond mainstream Protestantism, (Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc) such as Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry and to a lesser extent, Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul and Rick Santorum (he’s Catholic through) that have a base following of ultra-right and religious fundamentalists that believe in the literal translation of the Bible. These “extremists” tend to be fringe Evangelicals and Baptists. Not all, mind you, just most.

You may not accept these things as fact, but that’s your prerogative.

Moi uneducated? Perhaps. While I studied some theology, I lay no claim to be an expert. Also this is my opinion, so feel free to disagree all you want. I try to base most opinions on factual reality, not some persons person’s professed beliefs. Also, as someone brought up "Sharia" (which is Islamic religious law) they opened the door for religion.

...and so it goes....

[æonpax]

"Even as ye have done it unto the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." -----Jesus "Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and ignorant;they too have their story." ------Desiderata (written by someone much more intelligent than you).:cool:

After reading your post, I am reminded of a quote by the late Pope John Paul II;


“Stupidity is also a gift of God,
but one mustn't misuse it”

[tenni]

interesting aeonpax
With regard to religious extremists as a source of warfare and disrespect, I think that we can read the views of some that I consider extremist.

I may be wrong but Sharia Law is not Islam. It is a system more closely connected to medieval thinking. Theocracies that use Sharia Law as their basis of societal law are closer to medieval thinking than Islam itself. The connections made of Sharia Law to Islam are similar to the radical Christian sects connection to Christianity. To use Sharia Law as an argument that all Muslims hold these beliefs is inappropriate if not bigoted.

[bigbadmax]

Absolutely nothing to do with original post of this thread....suggest you start a new thread.

no disrespect but what a way to hijack a thread on war......its not about religion!

[void()]

Now aside from Catholicism, which does not adhere to “sola scriptura” there are some 38,000 Christian domination's (+/-) in the world, that do.

Catholicism adheres to Pax Romana which is meant as the doctrine of The Holy Roman Church, Catholicism. Most of Christianity takes cues from Catholicism as well. So, they dressed it up in a new trendy dress? All still the same thing. "Let the Church rule the world."

*sighs*

This shit gets tiring quickly. We should be living in Star Trek now, not some feudal dark ages. Screw it, I hate everyone equally, just because you're a fucking human. I declare full misanthropic war on all of you!

[nudeorphic]

Some clarification: I'm not at all a bigot relating to Islam-I just have researched this movement in great detail to include reading way more than the link I posted. I still stand by my comment that Islam is the most dangerous movement in the world today.
The Christian question: First, I'm not a practicing Christian I follow another spiritual path. So my stand about Islam does not come from the far right in the US actually I voted Democratic, for president Obama and will vote for him again.
There are constant probes by the Christian Right in the US to influence politics. That has been going on for a long time yet always fails to get traction when it's time to vote. People might agree but when in the voting booth our support of the US Constitution takes over. There is no doubt that excesses have been done by Christians throughout history-and that the radical Christian Right in the US can get quite noisy at times.
But Islam is something way different. It has a time table, a blueprint, weaved into a way of life. Uses the principle of mass by having large families; overwhelm with numbers. It goes on and we see evidence of this in Great Britain and in France.
Back to the military: the military has rules. There are laws. Conduct in the battlefield is enforced by these laws of warfare. What occurred brings down all other service men and women who serve honorably.

[bigbadmax]

VOID...and your point about the origins of this thread.....nothing to do with topic!

:offtopic:

[Light_and_Dark]

[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="4"]You are obviously unfamiliar with the practices of

1 – Christian Dominionism Theology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Theology and http://www.theocracywatch.org/dominionism.htm

2 – Christian Reconstructionalism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Reconstructionism and http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v08n1/chrisre1.html

3 – Christian Dispensationalism - http://www.theologicalstudies.org/resource-library/dispensationalism/421-what-is-dispensationalism and http://www.theopedia.com/Dispensationalism

4 – The tenets of Christian Fundamentalism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist_Christianity and http://seayj.people.cofc.edu/fundamentalism.html?referrer=webcluster&

However, I’ll forgo your unenlightenment on these topics because at the root of all of these “isms” is the Protestant belief in “Sola Scriptura” which is the doctrine that the Bible contains all knowledge necessary for salvation and holiness. Sola scriptura demands that only those doctrines are to be admitted or confessed that are found directly within or indirectly by using valid logical deduction or valid deductive reasoning from scripture. Therein lays the flaw to your argument.

Now aside from Catholicism, which does not adhere to “sola scriptura” there are some 38,000 Christian domination's (+/-) in the world, that do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations Each denomination has their own interpretation of the Bible, hence their own belief system, many of which directly clash with one another but all follow sola scriptura and many take the Bible literally…too literally in fact.

Another thing you casually discarded was my use of the phrase “extreme bible”. Now, what is considered extreme is obviously subjective but for me, such Christian extremism starts when theology overrides science and facts (ex: God made the earth and heavens, literally in six human days) and when the Bible is taken too literally as in men should have dominion over all things, such as women (Timothy 2:12) and (Genesis 1:28)…yeah, right!

I’ll admit, my chart is hyperbolic and as such, inaccurate, but I wanted to dramatize a point…a point I might add that you missed. I was simply saying; People who live in glass houses, shouldn’t throw stones.

In the GOP primaries, many of the candidates profess to believe in tenets of the Bible that go way beyond mainstream Protestantism, (Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc) such as Michele Bachmann, Rick Perry and to a lesser extent, Newt Gingrich, Ron Paul and Rick Santorum (he’s Catholic through) that have a base following of ultra-right and religious fundamentalists that believe in the literal translation of the Bible. These “extremists” tend to be fringe Evangelicals and Baptists. Not all, mind you, just most.

You may not accept these things as fact, but that’s your prerogative.


You obviously did not read when I stated that the extremes who believe that stuff do not follow biblical law..Even following the letter of the bible as law still does not relate almost anywhere near your chart. The quotes you posted had nothing to do with your intent when it states man shall have dominion over all the earth that reference states YOU yourself are a man...not in physical form but you are OF man...this could be argued more in depth but will not carry on further then to point out your arguments argue against themselves in this post and to quote from the bible "A house divided upon itself shall not stand"

[æonpax]

Catholicism adheres to #1 Pax Romana which is meant as the doctrine of The Holy Roman Church, Catholicism. Most of Christianity takes cues from Catholicism as well. So, they dressed it up in a new trendy dress? All still the same thing. "Let the Church rule the world."

*sighs*

#2 This shit gets tiring quickly. We should be living in Star Trek now, not some feudal dark ages. Screw it, I hate everyone equally, just because you're a fucking human. I declare full misanthropic war on all of you!

1 - To put it as civil and as politely as I can, you are mistaken. Pax Romana is the period of relative peace experienced by the Roman Empire in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. This has absolutely nothing to do with religion or Catholicism. Sowee.

2 - If you don't like this thread, avoid it. Problem solved....but don't whine about if just becuase you don't like it...sheesh!

I might add my nic here, "æonpax" is derived by two Latin words, roughly meaning "eternal peace."

[nudeorphic]

Darkeyes brought up the issue of crusade and I felt I had to respond.
The subject: conduct in the battlefield-as stated earlier, with over 20 years in the military, retired military, this incident revolts me and lets everyone in the military who serve honorably down.
What is difficult for me to understand is the amount of legal training soldiers have to go through is somehow not getting through with some numbskulls. I remember many training classes every year some I myself gave relating to the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice).
But again, back to a previous post I made, the military is a reflection of the society at large and you will have the same types of problems society at large has-murders, theft, etc., The military is made up of people and regardless of the screening bad apples get through.
Investigation, trial, punishment-and increase training in this matter. Training leaders as well.

[void()]

VOID...and your point about the origins of this thread.....nothing to do with topic!

:offtopic:

Yeah got that. Funny how folks think that what people believe does not comply with the topic of war, especially when the war is stated to be over what people believe.


If you don't like this thread, avoid it. Problem solved....but don't whine about if just becuase you don't like it...sheesh!

No worries there you pretty little trump. Void is out, completely. C'ya.

[bigbadmax]

Void what a effin lie....you were off topic by commenting on religion which has eff all to do with the ORIGINAL thread.

[elian]

Funny old thing......Invading.......mmmm would the Libyan's say it was an invasion??????

Yes they would, because it's so much easier to blame some OTHER country for all of your problems while you are busy raping your own people hand over fist to maintain the power and wealth of an elite few. Not that I think people shouldn't be rewarded for working hard, just that when it comes at the extortion of others through violent means someone ought to stand up..I feel the same way about drug dealers too.. I may not agree completely with the fundamentalist idea of "morals" but someone needs to give folks a good, proper education for whatever they'll do best at (we don't all have to be rocket scientists), and a good healthy dose of self esteem + altrustic love. That way they'll know that they themselves matter, and their actions in this world affect the community around them.

It's so much easier to blame someone else then do the work that it takes to make it right..thank you for trying to make a difference.

I believe it was a combination of all our forces being there, and Obama inciting an idea by speaking at the university of Egypt that seemed to cause some of the people on that side of the country to finally stand up for their own rights.

Whether you like it or not (especially accelerated ever since the first free trade agreement) we are now part of a globally connected world and everything in the world is constantly trying to reach an equilibrium. Those other countries are going to try and pull themselves up, and the rest of us are going to help them. Whether it's kicking and screaming or otherwise..regardless of politics, that's just the way the world works. It's up to men (& women) whether they want to inflict another 50-100 years of suffering on others but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the real age of the world.

..and for the record..the lives lost in that 50-100 years are NOT a drop in the bucket to me, although they may be a drop in the bucket to some supernatural omnipotent force that men seem to like to use to start wars.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes brought up the issue of crusade and I felt I had to respond.


I did not bring up the subject of crusade... I raised the subject of "crusade".. quite a different matter... the perception among many Islamic people around the world that there is a western and yes, Christian crusade against Islam.. much the same, I argue, that there is a perception among many Christians, and people in western countries, that Islam is conducting Jihad against them.. your posts and a links you posted do nothing to convince me otherwise... you claim not to be a bigot yet you are plainly an Islamophobe.. explain to me the difference?

It is this misunderstanding and suspicion of what and who we do not know that often leads us to war against people of whom and of whom really we know nothing.. we read and listen to the perceptions of others and take that as our cue without seriously researching the truth of it... we react to them as they react to us.. there is no Jihad against the west or Christianity and there is no crusade against Islam.. there is merely hatred, suspicion and misunderstanding often compounded by downright lies on both sides... there are however people dying and being sucked into conflict on behalf of the various power interests who have convinced both u and ur equivalents on the other side of the religious bigotry and material greed of one side or other... of the perfidy of others...you and they have been duped by unscrupulous people for their reasons and you and ultimately even the rest of us may yet pay the price of their duplicity..

[void()]

Void what a effin lie....you were off topic by commenting on religion which has eff all to do with the ORIGINAL thread.

And religion is what is being fought over. Hearts and minds, remember. And that's why I'm gone. People refuse seeing the obvious and then drag you down for pointing it out. There was a point here when discussion was discussion, not pissing wars.

[pepperjack]

And religion is what is being fought over. Hearts and minds, remember. And that's why I'm gone. People refuse seeing the obvious and then drag you down for pointing it out. There was a point here when discussion was discussion, not pissing wars.

Good point and to the point!

[tenni]

And religion is what is being fought over. Hearts and minds, remember. And that's why I'm gone. People refuse seeing the obvious and then drag you down for pointing it out. There was a point here when discussion was discussion, not pissing wars.

I'm not sure when discussion was discussion? Certainly at times since 2009 there has been discussion and debate.

Some posters are articulate and knowledgeable about the thread topic. Some posters are able to connect two ideas intelligently. Some posters use circular logic over and over again. The proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises. This means that they basically are basing their point/position on a lie. Their discussion/debate skills are worth nothing but merde. :( :( :( It is pointed out to them and they continue. Some make a thread dealing with an issue about themselves (constantly).

Some deviate a thread from the purpose of the thread. That aspect is tricky because the deviation may start off as minor and then the next person deviates the topic from the deviated topic...on and on. Heck, some posters seem to be anti debate and just want group hugs, self disclosure of life crisis (so that they may mother the poor troubled soul:tong:). So, they enter the thread discussion to point this out and complain assuming that what is posted is argument and not discussion nor debate. Oh, fer fek sakes :tong....look I'm supporting the deviating the thread topic. Sorry.:( :)

Disrespect and warfare may follow when there is a breakdown in communication between individuals and between states even when discussing disrespect and warfare. I don't think that it is religion as much as it is about power and the manipulation of religions to create fear of others.(insert selected enemy)

[darkeyes]

And religion is what is being fought over. Hearts and minds, remember. And that's why I'm gone. People refuse seeing the obvious and then drag you down for pointing it out. There was a point here when discussion was discussion, not pissing wars.

Religion, sweetheart, is but the excuse... unscrupulous bastards inciting the name of God or Allah in pursuit of power and riches... and millions of poor mugs lap it up and swallow it... Bin Laden was no devout Muslim.. he discovered Islam late and used it for his own ends... similarly many of our political leaders use religion as a calling but they believe in that religion about as much as I do... that may be cynical but it is how I see it and not without some justice..

Most who believe in their God believe sincerely, so it is particularly sad that they fall into the trap laid for them by those who profess religion and allow themselves to be used for the ends of the ruthless..in fact that sincerity and devoutness of the true believer makes it easier for them to fall into that trap.. and that makes the crime of those ruthess and unscrupulous sods even worse...there is nothing more dear to heart of a believer than his God.. inciting the name of God or Allah does not make anyone a believer... corrupting the word of the prophet or Christ for their own ends makes but opportunists who will say and do anything to achieve an end.. beware leaders from whose lips fall the words God or Allah too freely..

I will be sorry to see u go Voidie... and hope u are kidding us on.. a bit airey fairey at times and often difficult to comprehend but behind that mask of apparently ethereal waffle was something often worth the effort of taking in and working out... I must admit sometimes I think u were taking the piss but that doesnt matter.. I like u a great deal and will miss what u have to say.. or not as the case may be.. take care sweetheart willya? And be happy...:)

..as to the sentiments u express about the site? Spot on, babes.. gud luck 2 ya..

[bigbadmax]

Yes they would, because it's so much easier to blame some OTHER country for all of your problems while you are busy raping your own people hand over fist to maintain the power and wealth of an elite few. Not that I think people shouldn't be rewarded for working hard, just that when it comes at the extortion of others through violent means someone ought to stand up..I feel the same way about drug dealers too.. I may not agree completely with the fundamentalist idea of "morals" but someone needs to give folks a good, proper education for whatever they'll do best at (we don't all have to be rocket scientists), and a good healthy dose of self esteem + altrustic love. That way they'll know that they themselves matter, and their actions in this world affect the community around them.

It's so much easier to blame someone else then do the work that it takes to make it right..thank you for trying to make a difference.

I believe it was a combination of all our forces being there, and Obama inciting an idea by speaking at the university of Egypt that seemed to cause some of the people on that side of the country to finally stand up for their own rights.

Whether you like it or not (especially accelerated ever since the first free trade agreement) we are now part of a globally connected world and everything in the world is constantly trying to reach an equilibrium. Those other countries are going to try and pull themselves up, and the rest of us are going to help them. Whether it's kicking and screaming or otherwise..regardless of politics, that's just the way the world works. It's up to men (& women) whether they want to inflict another 50-100 years of suffering on others but that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the real age of the world.

..and for the record..the lives lost in that 50-100 years are NOT a drop in the bucket to me, although they may be a drop in the bucket to some supernatural omnipotent force that men seem to like to use to start wars.

Far too many words and no point actually made....so OBAMA caused Libya to revolt? did ee ell as like!

without the intervention of amongst a few like Britain, who provided at first just advice and then direct action, the rebels would have lost against darth vader...sorry wrong script! Gaddaffi.

I genuinely could not grasp the point you are making about 50-100 years...enlighten please

[darkeyes]

Far too many words and no point actually made....so OBAMA caused Libya to revolt? did ee ell as like!

without the intervention of amongst a few like Britain, who provided at first just advice and then direct action, the rebels would have lost against darth vader...sorry wrong script! Gaddaffi.

I genuinely could not grasp the point you are making about 50-100 years...enlighten please

Maybe not directly Max, but am pretty sure that the CIA and MI6 and the intelligence services of other countries (espesh France for instance) did their bit in stirring up unrest... Britain in a sense is especially culpable considering Blair's activities and its hypocrisy in turfing Libyan dissidents back to Libya for murder and torture while working behind the scenes with others and maybe even the same ones to undermine Ghaddafi.. the sticky fingers of western security agencies are very much in evidence..

The question is of course should Britain, France, the US and others have intervened? I would argue no.. involving ourselves in the internal affairs of other countries invariably goes belly up and even when done for the best of motives.. it is likely to come back to haunt us.. as just about every other foreign military adventure since WW2 and before has come back to haunt us... those who control Libya now may thank us publicly but in the end they will do what is best for them and Libya... and in the end, that those thanks will not be wholehearted and more likely to be rather short lived... ruthless men babes... they will do what they have to for survival and power.. and we may yet pay a price we had not expected... as we are doing for interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and are likely to do ere long over Iran...

..and so Elian's 50-100 years comes into play... we are still living with the effects of the first Iraq war.. Afghanistan and the second Iraq war are but fallout of that war, and arguably, as is Libya, and certainly is Iran even if Iraq and Iran were not exactly m8s prior to the first Iraq war... we gave Iran an in into other countries where they had no influence.. well done us hey? I make that 20 years of strife misery and suffering, I dont know about u... and no end in sight...:( ..and with each foreign military adventure we push back that 50 or 100 years ever farther.... we make it more difficult to solve the issues and heal the wounds... no I can see Elian's half and full century ok and despair of it...

[tenni]

Darkeyes
I am reminded from reading your last post of all the covert and overt interferences and impositions placed on territories. I'm a little foggy on the specific (and two lazy to look it up) but WW2 in particular played roles in creating illogical territorial boundaries that led to further warfare and friction. Then there is the point made regarding trade, foreign aid and third world countries. The argument has been placed forward that the big powers hand out foreign aid disrespectfully with not only strings but stragegically place restrictions on access to such things as trading ports so that these countries are perpetually unable to break loose of being beholding to the major powers. There is no real free trade. Trade deals are manipulated so that the major country(ies) is/are in control. There is no real respect of sovereignty and control which leads to warfare whether it is called invasion, defending (what?) or terrorism.

[pepperjack]

Religion, sweetheart, is but the excuse... unscrupulous bastards inciting the name of God or Allah in pursuit of power and riches... and millions of poor mugs lap it up and swallow it... Bin Laden was no devout Muslim.. he discovered Islam late and used it for his own ends... similarly many of our political leaders use religion as a calling but they believe in that religion about as much as I do... that may be cynical but it is how I see it and not without some justice..

Most who believe in their God believe sincerely, so it is particularly sad that they fall into the trap laid for them by those who profess religion and allow themselves to be used for the ends of the ruthless..in fact that sincerity and devoutness of the true believer makes it easier for them to fall into that trap.. and that makes the crime of those ruthess and unscrupulous sods even worse...there is nothing more dear to heart of a believer than his God.. inciting the name of God or Allah does not make anyone a believer... corrupting the word of the prophet or Christ for their own ends makes but opportunists who will say and do anything to achieve an end.. beware leaders from whose lips fall the words God or Allah too freely..

I will be sorry to see u go Voidie... and hope u are kidding us on.. a bit airey fairey at times and often difficult to comprehend but behind that mask of apparently ethereal waffle was something often worth the effort of taking in and working out... I must admit sometimes I think u were taking the piss but that doesnt matter.. I like u a great deal and will miss what u have to say.. or not as the case may be.. take care sweetheart willya? And be happy...:)

..as to the sentiments u express about the site? Spot on, babes.. gud luck 2 ya..

You're right about Bin laden. He had a personal agenda, namely bitter hatred for the U.S., blaming it for his banishment from his country. And his cowardice was very evident when his time of retribution came. But I have to disagree on another point. I don't feel that I have fallen into a trap because of my belief in God. I think I might be more at peace with the current world situation than you are. I feel that my God has endowed me with certain attributes to help me survive in an evil world. And I see current events as exactly what Jesus prophesied; and he DID warn about false prophets. And by the way, in reference to invoking God's name, I have yet to discover Allah's. Muslims always say, "In the name of Allah......" but what is it? In Christianity, He has several. Even Native Americans have a name for God: Wakan-Tanka, meaning either Unknowable Great or Great Mystery.:)

[bigbadmax]

I feel that my God has endowed me with certain attributes to help me survive in an evil world. And I see current events as exactly what Jesus prophesied; and he DID warn about false prophets. And by the way, in reference to invoking God's name, I have yet to discover Allah's. Muslims always say, "In the name of Allah......" but what is it? In Christianity, He has several. Even Native Americans have a name for God: Wakan-Tanka, meaning either Unknowable Great or Great Mystery.:)

It may be sunday but got off your pulpit and stop steering a thread on war back to religion.

:offtopic:

[æonpax]

It may be sunday but got off your pulpit and stop steering a thread on war back to religion.:offtopic:

Good idea. Religion gives me a headache.

[pepperjack]

It may be sunday but got off your pulpit and stop steering a thread on war back to religion.

:offtopic:

This thread was steered to religion long before my post and I have a right to respond to someone I've been communicating with who also referenced religion. War & religion have been intertwined throughout history so get used to it! Why don't you focus more on cleaning up your typos?:smilies15

[bigbadmax]

you biggot...just because someone has called you out you have to get personnal.

you thump that bible zealot.

[bigbadmax]

PEPPER

What Religious implication EXACTLY is there with someone pissing on a corpse???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Good idea. Religion gives me a headache.

Too bad. Then why did you quote a pope, hypocrite?:rolleyes:

[pepperjack]

PEPPER

What Religious implication EXACTLY is there with someone pissing on a corpse???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????:bigrin:

Apparently you can't read & comprehend. I was responding to a couple of Fran's comments, the OP of this thread! Steer the conversation back to war then if it upsets you so much. Your bent out of shape attitude kind of personifies it.:cool:

[bigbadmax]

I concede the fact that you were replying to a comment by another member on here.

[æonpax]

Too bad. Then why did you quote a pope, hypocrite?:rolleyes:

Quoting a pope doesn't make me anymore religious than quoting Einstein makes me a quantum theorist. But if you must know, what I originally wanted to say was a bit too harsh. This quote was the mildest I could come up with.

Now with war, I hate it but from a philosophical perspective, I follow the "Just War" Theory, advocated by Aquinas, to wit;


A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.

A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.

A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient)Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.

A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.

The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.

The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.

The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.

[keefer728]

In the US, the vast majority of those sounding the alarm against Islamism, are your conservative Christians, almost down to the last person. Most of those folk are undereducated on the Islamic faith and indoctrinated to believe what they are told. However, the issue here is Sharia law and again, I see an absolute lack of any insight and knowledge on what Sharia really is.

Like the Christians and their Bible, which throughout history, has been perverted and corrupted my men seeking to use it’s power over people, so too have men of Islam perverted and corrupted the Qur'an, through Sharia Law by an Islamic sect called the “Wahhabi.” http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm These people are every bit as dangerous as those evangelical Christians whom want US law to reflect their extremist interpretation of the Bible.

The problem’s of extreme Sharia law are well documented, especially heinous crimes against women. Nonetheless, while certain people rail against it, they do nothing to stop it. It should be noted that the US’s main Arab ally, Saudi Arabia, has integrated extreme Sharia law into their political structure. http://www.meforum.org/535/saudi-arabia-and-the-rise-of-the-wahhabi-threat

Extreme Sharia Law, like extreme Biblical law, have many points in common. See chart below.


http://i.imgur.com/5uthT.jpg

The only thing preventing the radical Christians from setting up a Theocracy in this nation, is the Constitution, which they are already starting to re-write according to their beliefs.

You are a ne'er-do-well of Biblical proportions.

[pepperjack]

Quoting a pope doesn't make me anymore religious than quoting Einstein makes me a quantum theorist. But if you must know, what I originally wanted to say was a bit too harsh. This quote was the mildest I could come up with.

Now with war, I hate it but from a philosophical perspective, I follow the "Just War" Theory, advocated by Aquinas, to wit;


A just war can only be waged as a last resort. All non-violent options must be exhausted before the use of force can be justified.

A war is just only if it is waged by a legitimate authority. Even just causes cannot be served by actions taken by individuals or groups who do not constitute an authority sanctioned by whatever the society and outsiders to the society deem legitimate.

A just war can only be fought to redress a wrong suffered. For example, self-defense against an armed attack is always considered to be a just cause (although the justice of the cause is not sufficient)Further, a just war can only be fought with "right" intentions: the only permissible objective of a just war is to redress the injury.

A war can only be just if it is fought with a reasonable chance of success. Deaths and injury incurred in a hopeless cause are not morally justifiable.

The ultimate goal of a just war is to re-establish peace. More specifically, the peace established after the war must be preferable to the peace that would have prevailed if the war had not been fought.

The violence used in the war must be proportional to the injury suffered. States are prohibited from using force not necessary to attain the limited objective of addressing the injury suffered.

The weapons used in war must discriminate between combatants and non-combatants. Civilians are never permissible targets of war, and every effort must be taken to avoid killing civilians. The deaths of civilians are justified only if they are unavoidable victims of a deliberate attack on a military target.


Did I say it it made you religious? It made you appear hypocritical just as your unnecessary & extremely demeaning post about Rick Santorum revealed you for the shallow person you are, in spite of all your education. Not that I'm favoring him as a candidate, but I just see him as a decent human being trying to make a positive difference in this troubled world. The others were right about you; I regret ever coming to your defense.

[void()]

Fran,

It is no piss. Only here to post this to you. I am done visiting here. There is no longer open communication of the level once had. Also there are other external factors involved, enough so to merit consideration. Simply put if one says the wrong there are stipulations. And one is not granted a list of what is wrong to say. Between that and communication going to pot here, I have decided it better to just not visit at all.

I feel that I have much to say but not here. Have not been saying much here for a while now. I recall CSR Kate telling me once before, all were welcome here. She said there were no cliques, no one discriminated, everyone could speak freely, that everyone could find a place to fit here. After about ten years of trying, I see that isn't happening.

I may miss a few but it is time to move along. Wish everyone luck.

[æonpax]

Did I say it it made you religious? It made you appear hypocritical just as b) your unnecessary & extremely demeaning post about Rick Santorum revealed you for the shallow person you are, in spite of all your education. Not that I'm favoring him as a candidate, but I just see him as a decent human being trying to make a positive difference in this troubled world. c) The others were right about you; a) I regret ever coming to your defense.

a) I never asked you to back or defend me. I'm a big girl, I can handle things on my own...I always have.

b) "your unnecessary & extremely demeaning post about Rick Santorum" - Touchy aren't we and a bit over-sensitive. Here's what I said about Ricky;

"and Rick Santorum (he’s Catholic through) that have a base following of ultra-right and religious fundamentalists that believe in the literal translation of the Bible."

Wow, that was some hardcore insults I threw at him. Aside from what I said about him being factual, the ass is so anti-gay, he has already complied a Top Ten List of slurs against gays - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/rick-santorums-top-ten-most-offensive-anti-gay-comments/politics/2011/06/06/21448 I find the company you keep, most disturbing.

3) "the others"...Hmm, I take that to mean your misogynist, uber conservative buddies here. They've been duly noted a long time ago.

You know, you and a few others really need to take a Chill Pill before you enter discussions on politics and religion. You get too emotional about such things. Some of my best times during discussions/arguments is when the cards are stacked against me...especially when they can cite facts and remain civil. Win/lose is not important as much as testing my opinions and beliefs against those whom disagree. If I can be proved wrong about something, using facts and logic, I actually learn from that. But I guess everyone has different reasons for posting here, so that's the way it goes.

[pepperjack]

a) I never asked you to back or defend me. I'm a big girl, I can handle things on my own...I always have.

b) "your unnecessary & extremely demeaning post about Rick Santorum" - Touchy aren't we and a bit over-sensitive. Here's what I said about Ricky;

"and Rick Santorum (he’s Catholic through) that have a base following of ultra-right and religious fundamentalists that believe in the literal translation of the Bible."

Wow, that was some hardcore insults I threw at him. Aside from what I said about him being factual, the ass is so anti-gay, he has already complied a Top Ten List of slurs against gays - http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/rick-santorums-top-ten-most-offensive-anti-gay-comments/politics/2011/06/06/21448 I find the company you keep, most disturbing.

3) "the others"...Hmm, I take that to mean your misogynist, uber conservative buddies here. They've been duly noted a long time ago.

You know, you and a few others really need to take a Chill Pill before you enter discussions on politics and religion. You get too emotional about such things. Some of my best times during discussions/arguments is when the cards are stacked against me...especially when they can cite facts and remain civil. Win/lose is not important as much as testing my opinions and beliefs against those whom disagree. If I can be proved wrong about something, using facts and logic, I actually learn from that. But I guess everyone has different reasons for posting here, so that's the way it goes.

I need to take a Chill Pill? I've been in a very relaxed mode all week-end.:bigrin: Looks to me like you're the agitated one.:smilies15

[bigbadmax]

Aeon,

Ignore him, walk past as he talks to himself on the streets....that lovely list of people to ignore has his name right at the bottom, thats where the slime always ends up...in the gutters.

[elian]

Far too many words and no point actually made....so OBAMA caused Libya to revolt? did ee ell as like!

without the intervention of amongst a few like Britain, who provided at first just advice and then direct action, the rebels would have lost against darth vader...sorry wrong script! Gaddaffi.

I genuinely could not grasp the point you are making about 50-100 years...enlighten please

..ok, so let's say that America was to use "direct action" like infantry on a third front in Libya. People would bitch about THAT too - and the US president? He's damned anyway - he's "too slow to act", "interfering in Arab affairs" or "dragging us into another war" .. take your pick. That job must really suck, you can't please anybody, every initiative you try to put forward gets stonewalled in committee and then your adversaries all point out how ineffective you were in "keeping your promises" after they refused to cooperate in any way.

I'm sorry that I stubbornly cling to the delusional belief that human beings are basically good at heart..as long as they are given the right encouragement.

The 50 or 100 years? Simply that the world is going to change whether we like it or not, and a hope that there doesn't have to be blood shed for it every step of the way. It's just the ramblings of an overly-emotional man who is tired of seeing people's thoughts polarized so badly that the whole world has to be torn all to hell along with all of the people in it. We ought to be building people up spiritually, emotionally and physically instead of hating one another.. It doesn't have to be some grandiose spectacular thing - just an act of kindness, like you all donating your rations away - very cool.

As for the photos and videos, I am sure that this sort of incident has gone on before throughout history. The hard thing about violence is the cost of it. The financial cost is nothing compared to what it cost to build up good will in the hearts and minds of men. That sort of hope is a fragile thing; as long as the human race believes that people only have their own self-interest at heart it is hard to forgive, and it only takes an instant to destroy what it takes years to build.

Do I have all of the answers? No. There are no tidy, easy answers for something with a cost as steep as men's lives.. President Bush set the US on a course of action more than 10 years ago when he retaliated..I would like to think that we made a difference, maybe one that you don't see on the news every day..building a school, a sewage treatment plant or power plant is not as newsworthy as a car bomb.

Take a page from the LGBT book and reach out to people, the more straight people that get to know gay people the more they realize that they have more in common than differences. The same is true of friends with different faiths.

Now excuse me while I back toward the door like a coward with my tail between my legs..there doesn't appear to be any grace left in this thread for a tired old fool.

[pepperjack]

Aeon,

Ignore him, walk past as he talks to himself on the streets....that lovely list of people to ignore has his name right at the bottom, thats where the slime always ends up...in the gutters.

Yeah, & you have to look up just to see the top of the gutter. And you want to accuse me of getting too personal.

[bigbadmax]

Take a page from the LGBT book and reach out to people, the more straight people that get to know gay people the more they realize that they have more in common than differences.



Would that be the same gays that distrust and hate the bi community?

[elian]

Would that be the same gays that distrust and hate the bi community?

All I can say is once you put an actual FACE on the issue, it's a lot harder to condemn and demonize a whole group of people..at least I hope that's the case. I am thinking of the parents of gay children, who now all of the sudden have to face the fact that the child whom they love is in a whole other class of people. It's not the child's fault, indeed it's the same child they've always known..

(relatively unrelated link.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TBd-UCwVAY)

[darkeyes]

Too bad. Then why did you quote a pope, hypocrite?:rolleyes:

Quoting a Pope, or any other figure, religious or otherwise whose way of life or beliefs we may disagree with does not of itself make anyone a hypocrite... just as we are unable to agree entirely with people with whom we are in general disagreement we can and do agree remarkably often with whose whose beliefs we may find not to our taste...

[darkeyes]

Now excuse me while I back toward the door like a coward with my tail between my legs..there doesn't appear to be any grace left in this thread for a tired old fool.

..this thread has taken on a personal nature which is distasteful and unnecessary... this isnt the only thread in which it is happening and is symptomatic of a deterioration in the quality of debate and good manners on this site which has been ongoing for several years now... I apportion no blame but suggest if members are unable to argue on the issues before them it is far better to say nothing...

[elian]

Thanks Fran, but I should be able to back up my views with facts, the truth is I can't - I mean, I could look up some facts to justify my statements but the truth is I am writing from the heart - trying in any way I can to make sense of a very violent world. All I seem to be able to do is shout "no" when I see others condemn a whole group of people for the terrible acts of a few. Growing up as a gay teen I know the cost of going down that path is very painful..

Maybe they're right to call me on it..I just wish the world could be different, that's all.

[darkeyes]

Thanks Fran, but I should be able to back up my views with facts, the truth is I can't - I mean, I could look up some facts to justify my statements but the truth is I am writing from the heart - trying in any way I can to make sense of a very violent world. All I seem to be able to do is shout "no" when I see others condemn a whole group of people for the terrible acts of a few. Growing up as a gay teen I know the cost of going down that path is very painful..

Maybe they're right to call me on it..I just wish the world could be different, that's all.

Elian, almost the most beautiful thing a person can do is to speak from the heart... often our heart is wrong, yet from the heart speaks our innermost beliefs and our desires that all should be right with the world.. cold facts are one thing and are important, but when the heart speaks out pours a beauty that no amount of research can ever pour forth... you are a luffly, troubled, beautiful, person Elian.. never apologise to me about speaking from the heart and never stop doing it...:)

[pepperjack]

Quoting a Pope, or any other figure, religious or otherwise whose way of life or beliefs we may disagree with does not of itself make anyone a hypocrite... just as we are unable to agree entirely with people with whom we are in general disagreement we can and do agree remarkably often with whose whose beliefs we may find not to our taste...

You obviously missed my point. She was lamenting about religion giving her a headache. She tripped herself up with her own rhetoric. I too, speak from my heart & can also be "extremely opinionated," & bless you for trying to be a peacemaker.:)

[æonpax]

1) You obviously missed my point. 2) She was lamenting about religion giving her a headache. 3) She tripped herself up with her own rhetoric. <snip>

1)...assuming you had one.

2) In the context of my reply, "religion gives me a headache", I was referring to steering the discussion back to the topic of war, away from discussing religion, which often times metaphorically, gives me a headache, becuase people like you get your undies all wrapped up in a bundie....note your own overreaction to my Santorum statement.

3) That makes absolutely no logical sense.

[æonpax]

Quoting a Pope, or any other figure, religious or otherwise whose way of life or beliefs we may disagree with does not of itself make anyone a hypocrite... just as we are unable to agree entirely with people with whom we are in general disagreement we can and do agree remarkably often with whose whose beliefs we may find not to our taste...

I quote many figures...political, religious, sports, statespeople, activists, philosophers, writers, etc, all irrespective of their profession or beliefs, because what makes their words quotable is the wisdom behind it.

Tomorrow, in the US, is Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. Considering the political scene in the the US has become racially polarized with innuendo, catch phrases and some say a conservative racist agenda, a man of his wisdom is needed today.



http://i.imgur.com/YQUJC.jpg
My favorite MLK quote

[pepperjack]

1)...assuming you had one.

2) In the context of my reply, "religion gives me a headache", I was referring to steering the discussion back to the topic of war, away from discussing religion, which often times metaphorically, gives me a headache, becuase people like you get your undies all wrapped up in a bundie....note your own overreaction to my Santorum statement.

3) That makes absolutely no logical sense.

Simply pointing out an unnecessary, shallow, demeaning comment about someone is hardly an overreaction but by your own admission, you like to indulge in hyperbole.

[elian]

Having served in the middle east, and seen first hand the poverty and deprivation that the excluded religions/politacal standpoints/opposition peoples have had to endure, I think that the "intervention" whether called for justly or not has IMPROVED a large majority of theses countries.

Have you ever seen a 3 yr old boy begging for ANY food that he can take home to his familly? We used to pool our rations, so as to give it away on the streets....not UNICEF's, WHO, NATO's or whatever you wish to call it, OUR FOOD.


Thank you for your service.

[pepperjack]

Having served in the middle east, and seen first hand the poverty and deprivation that the excluded religions/politacal standpoints/opposition peoples have had to endure, I think that the "intervention" whether called for justly or not has IMPROVED a large majority of theses countries.

Have you ever seen a 3 yr old boy begging for ANY food that he can take home to his familly? We used to pool our rations, so as to give it away on the streets....not UNICEF's, WHO, NATO's or whatever you wish to call it, OUR FOOD.

The old phrase springs to mind "ours not to reason why, ours but to do or die"...some of the images of torture by the then puppeteers was so devsating, I still have nightmares.......women raped, children tortured men dismembered..... Marie, I would strongly suggest you check out your history on how your country behaved in it's civil war not so far back in history and then have the decency to not prejudge ALL forces, especially when you ARE TOTALLY UNAWARE of the ethos of modern warfare.

And dont think it was a comfortable war in IRAQ, nor Afghanistan today...no Raybans in gift boxes or chocolate from home.....We had no food or water for the first 14 days......no showers, no latrines...just holes in the ground.... our medical supplies didnt come for 28 days so we had to improvise , adapt and overcome...what decent supplies we had were "confiscated" by brigade.

Funny old thing......Invading.......mmmm would the Libyan's say it was an invasion??????

BS! No military, especially one as civilized as the UK is going to allow its ground troops to do without food or water for 2 weeks. Here's a maxim for you, "an army marches on its belly." Liar.

[AdamKadmon43]

In the US, the vast majority of those sounding the alarm against Islamism, are your conservative Christians, almost down to the last person......

.

Not necessarily. A lot of us atheists are not overly fond of Islam either. But, on the other hand, we generally seem to be contemptuous of most religion.

[keefer728]

Not necessarily. A lot of us atheists are not overly fond of Islam either. But, on the other hand, we generally seem to be contemptuous of most religion.


I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself. Alexis de Tocqueville 1843

[Long Duck Dong]

BS! No military, especially one as civilized as the UK is going to allow its ground troops to do without food or water for 2 weeks. Here's a maxim for you, "an army marches on its belly." Liar.


sorry pepper, read grey ghosts, the story of the nam vets of NZ, and the victor companies, they were flown to nam but the promised supplies were never sent..the vets had to beg, steal and borrow everything, including weapons from the americans....

there was opposition to the troops going to nam, so they flew them out at night and when they returned, same thing and the vets were told, NOT to tell anybody where they had been.....

turned out the government could * sneak * the troops out of the country, but shifting the supplies would have raised questions, so the troops were told to expect what never turned up....

most of NZ's military work is NOT revealed to the public, IE who is sent where and way..... and all hell broke loose when it was revealed that we had SAS troops in afghanistan.... and the public were still none the wiser that we have regular troops and civilians over there too....lol

[pepperjack]

I studied the Koran a great deal. I came away from that study with the conviction there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammad. So far as I can see, it is the principal cause of the decadence so visible today in the Muslim world and, though less absurd than the polytheism of old, its social and political tendencies are in my opinion to be feared, and I therefore regard it as a form of decadence rather than a form of progress in relation to paganism itself. Alexis de Tocqueville 1843

I just know bits & pieces, one of the most recent tidbits provided by a college student studying it whose input left me to conclude it was created by man for practical reasons to control the populace of that time because of trade routes.:2cents:

[void()]

PEPPER

What Religious implication EXACTLY is there with someone pissing on a corpse???????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????:bigrin:

Religion, or how one believes directly effects their ethical and moral compass in life. One would think if one believes their belief is superior to others, then one would see point to lead by example. Even in jest to urinate or act as one is urinating upon a dead enemy, is demeaning of all humanity, dignity. This example permits one to see the true colors of a 'superior' belief. Frankly, many of all faiths and lack of faiths are tired of this immaturity and indignity. Religion sets the tone of hearts and minds as I'm quite sure you're aware, if not fuck the Irish.

This is taking a piss. A question was asked. I replied. Done.

[pepperjack]

sorry pepper, read grey ghosts, the story of the nam vets of NZ, and the victor companies, they were flown to nam but the promised supplies were never sent..the vets had to beg, steal and borrow everything, including weapons from the americans....

there was opposition to the troops going to nam, so they flew them out at night and when they returned, same thing and the vets were told, NOT to tell anybody where they had been.....

turned out the government could * sneak * the troops out of the country, but shifting the supplies would have raised questions, so the troops were told to expect what never turned up....

most of NZ's military work is NOT revealed to the public, IE who is sent where and way..... and all hell broke loose when it was revealed that we had SAS troops in afghanistan.... and the public were still none the wiser that we have regular troops and civilians over there too....lol

I concede to your knowledge of your country's military; likewise, I have felt compassion & outrage concerning my country's treatment of its Nam vets; I mentioned this on a previous thread. My dad served 2 tours. Thought I would have to go also, but was spared. Nevertheless, the human body cannot tolerate this type of deprivation & then engage in battle. It was as you said, beg,borrow & steal in order to survive, but to expect me to believe he survived without food or water for 2 weeks is ludicrous.

[bigbadmax]

sorry pepper, read grey ghosts, the story of the nam vets of NZ, and the victor companies, they were flown to nam but the promised supplies were never sent..the vets had to beg, steal and borrow everything, including weapons from the americans....

there was opposition to the troops going to nam, so they flew them out at night and when they returned, same thing and the vets were told, NOT to tell anybody where they had been.....

turned out the government could * sneak * the troops out of the country, but shifting the supplies would have raised questions, so the troops were told to expect what never turned up....

most of NZ's military work is NOT revealed to the public, IE who is sent where and way..... and all hell broke loose when it was revealed that we had SAS troops in afghanistan.... and the public were still none the wiser that we have regular troops and civilians over there too....lol

Many thankds LDD,

Pepper WAS on my ignore list but thank you for alerting me to his post.

I could have added we had neither toilet paper,nor body armour nor desert cam uniform.

WE had to beg the U.S medical department for supplies....we had no showers so had enforced sleep and nil exercise regimen for two weeks...was like cold turkey not being able to run, or cleanse ourselves.

Being in the Royal Navy we were unused to not showering at least daily, for the record I was on the frontline with the Royal Marines...not "safely" on a ship.

Pepper please check your facts before commenting, as slip ups tend to hit you right on the noggin.

[æonpax]

Not necessarily. A lot of us atheists are not overly fond of Islam either. But, on the other hand, we generally seem to be contemptuous of most religion.


I stand corrected. However, on the same token, many of the Islamic faith are not extremists and have a prudent and reasonable fear of Christians.

[darkeyes]

I stand corrected. However, on the same token, many of the Islamic faith are not extremists and have a prudent and reasonable fear of Christians.

Most athiests are not in fact contemptuous of religion but they do dismiss what it in its many forms, espouses, preferring to live and let live with the beliefs of others.. it is not quite the same thing... some however are, having bought into the general hysteria of the community around them of one religion or other...

But I do agree entirely with your second sentence...

[pepperjack]

Many thankds LDD,

Pepper WAS on my ignore list but thank you for alerting me to his post.

I could have added we had neither toilet paper,nor body armour nor desert cam uniform.

WE had to beg the U.S medical department for supplies....we had no showers so had enforced sleep and nil exercise regimen for two weeks...was like cold turkey not being able to run, or cleanse ourselves.

Being in the Royal Navy we were unused to not showering at least daily, for the record I was on the frontline with the Royal Marines...not "safely" on a ship.

Pepper please check your facts before commenting, as slip ups tend to hit you right on the noggin.

The average person can usually survive without water for about three days. You're expecting me to believe what's humanly impossible.

[AdamKadmon43]

Most athiests are not in fact contemptuous of religion ........

And you would know this this exactly how????

Perhaps by the same reasoning with which you conclude that MOST Muslims (all over the world) are tolerant, peace-loving people who adapt to and blend in well with other cultures, and who do not strive to see Islam eventually dominate the world under religious law by any means necessary.

It would seem as if we all make a great deal of generalizations about things. And those generalizations don't necessarily have be true... They just have to fit into our world view.

[darkeyes]

And you would know this this exactly how????

Perhaps by the same reasoning with which you conclude that MOST Muslims (all over the world) are tolerant, peace-loving people who adapt to and blend in well with other cultures, and who do not strive to see Islam eventually dominate the world under religious law by any means necessary.

It would seem as if we all make a great deal of generalizations about things. And those generalizations don't necessarily have be true... They just have to fit into our world view.


Perhaps, Adam, because I do not live in an entirely paranoid and polarised society I do not share the paranoia of which so many in your country are blighted.. perhaps because I believe in the essential goodness of people and their wish to simply live their lives in peace and that not all are so dogmatic that they wish their way rammed down the throats of others.. perhaps because being an athiest and knowing many others I see it as the predominant view that theirs is but one view of the cosmos not the only and they tend to respect what others believe.. perhaps because I find it difficult to hate other people no matter how nausious I find them and believe they can always become less so.. perhaps because I do not allow the poison of nationalism, jingoism and patriotism to pollute my mind.. perhaps because I believe in true liberty of the spirit unjaundiced by suspicion of the motives of others who do not believe as I do...perhaps because not all follow the propaganda of those who would lead them and work to corrupt them... perhaps because I tend to like people and like them to like me and believe that most are no different from me in that regard... perhaps because I have loved, do love, am loved and have been loved and have seen such love among others toward those of other faiths and of none.. perhaps because I am simply naive and think the best of others...perhaps because I know when I am being taken for a ride and people are lying to me and I question what I am told.. perhaps none of these and all...perhaps of course because I know many people of many religions and of none and believe them when they tell me that they believe in peace and want an end to conflict and violence.. perhaps because while cynical of many things I am not cynical enough..

Perhaps I am wrong in all I believe.. but based on what I have seen of my world I don't think so... perhaps I am just a fool.. but if that is so then I am a happy fool and would rather be the happy misguided fool than as you...

[AdamKadmon43]

Perhaps, Adam, because I do not live in an entirely paranoid and polarised society I do not share the paranoia of which so many in your country are blighted.. perhaps because I believe in the essential goodness of people and their wish to simply live their lives in peace and that not all are so dogmatic that they wish their way rammed down the throats of others.. perhaps because being an athiest and knowing many others I see it as the predominant view that theirs is but one view of the cosmos not the only and they tend to respect what others believe.. perhaps because I find it difficult to hate other people no matter how nausious I find them and believe they can always become less so.. perhaps because I do not allow the poison of nationalism, jingoism and patriotism to pollute my mind.. perhaps because I believe in true liberty of the spirit unjaundiced by suspicion of the motives of others who do not believe as I do...perhaps because not all follow the propaganda of those who would lead them and work to corrupt them... perhaps because I tend to like people and like them to like me and believe that most are no different from me in that regard... perhaps because I have loved, do love, am loved and have been loved and have seen such love among others toward those of other faiths and of none.. perhaps because I am simply naive and think the best of others...perhaps because I know when I am being taken for a ride and people are lying to me and I question what I am told.. perhaps none of these and all...perhaps of course because I know many people of many religions and of none and believe them when they tell me that they believe in peace and want an end to conflict and violence.. perhaps because while cynical of many things I am not cynical enough..

Perhaps I am wrong in all I believe.. but based on what I have seen of my world I don't think so... perhaps I am just a fool.. but if that is so then I am a happy fool and would rather be the happy misguided fool than as you...

A sufficient response.

How can I take issue with anyone as kind, caring, loving, well-intentioned and passionate about their beliefs as you seem to be?

However, I WILL continue to maintain vigilance when it comes to world forces that I believe could take away your freedom to be what you are...... Even if it requires some degree of cynicism, paranoia and generalization on my part.

[darkeyes]

A sufficient response.

How can I take issue with anyone as kind, caring, loving, well-intentioned and passionate about their beliefs as you seem to be?

However, I WILL continue to maintain vigilance when it comes to world forces that I believe could take away your freedom to be what you are...... Even if it requires some degree of cynicism, paranoia and generalization on my part.



U must do as u think fit... for me I will happily live without that paranoia... those who are most likely to remove from me my right to be what I am live much closer to home and are a part of my native culture.

[bigbadmax]

Pepper,

Your ignorance shows no bounds. 3 days, I'm afraid your wiki knowledge needs to be updated. Its 10-14 days.

Did you not note that there was ENFORCED sleep....for the unaware this meens NO choice but to sleep......If you are asleep you dont eat or drink or expell energy to the degree of waking bodily functions. We had no resupply and had only the food and water we carried with us into combat.

Uk forces nutrition differs from Us m.r.e packs(one meal)......we have a 24hr meal system that can be eaten hot or cold with. All uk forces carry 3 of these when they deploy with aprox 4ltres of water. When deployed to normal coditions the body needs aprox 3 ltres a day...hot countries this goes upto 4-6 litres a day. so maths aint my strongpoint but that means what little we had, was stretched to 4x the usual usage. Survival training taught us where to locate food and water as well...but thats a different aspect which I expect you not to comprehend.

Pepper as I stated, slip ups have made you stumble and hit your head...CHECK YOUR FACTS.

[Light_and_Dark]

The average person can usually survive without water for about three days. You're expecting me to believe what's humanly impossible.

Pepperjack maybe you dont know military lingo to well...when i read his original post I knew what he meant...by ACQUIRE from the locals the needed supplies...Then again I am ex-military myself.

[pepperjack]

Pepper,

Your ignorance shows no bounds. 3 days, I'm afraid your wiki knowledge needs to be updated. Its 10-14 days.

Did you not note that there was ENFORCED sleep....for the unaware this meens NO choice but to sleep......If you are asleep you dont eat or drink or expell energy to the degree of waking bodily functions. We had no resupply and had only the food and water we carried with us into combat.

Uk forces nutrition differs from Us m.r.e packs(one meal)......we have a 24hr meal system that can be eaten hot or cold with. All uk forces carry 3 of these when they deploy with aprox 4ltres of water. When deployed to normal coditions the body needs aprox 3 ltres a day...hot countries this goes upto 4-6 litres a day. so maths aint my strongpoint but that means what little we had, was stretched to 4x the usual usage. Survival training taught us where to locate food and water as well...but thats a different aspect which I expect you not to comprehend.

Pepper as I stated, slip ups have made you stumble and hit your head...CHECK YOUR FACTS.

There you go....you just said it! " We had no resupply and had only the food and water we carried into combat." And again...""Survival training taught us where to locate food and water as well..." That's a stretch from " we went without food and water for 14 days." And for your info, I did not consult Wikipedia; what I posted was common knowledge. I'm supposed to think of you as some sort of 21st century super soldier?:rolleyes:

[bigbadmax]

There you go....you just said it! " We had no resupply and had only the food and water we carried into combat." And again...""Survival training taught us where to locate food and water as well..." That's a stretch from " we went without food and water for 14 days." And for your info, I did not consult Wikipedia; what I posted was common knowledge. I'm supposed to think of you as some sort of 21st century super soldier?:rolleyes:

Common knowledge? I know now why fast food chains put the warning on coffee cups"caution hot contents"...especially for the likes of you that dont do knowledge lol

I unfortunately missed out the word resupply in the original text...but the sentiment is EXACTLY the same. I don't consider eating desert rats and scorpions a adequete replacement for a "normal meal" nor digging in sand for water "healthy" . Maybe you eat vermin and dont bathe, we civilised people have standards you obviously lack. :eek:

[æonpax]

Perhaps, Adam, because I do not live in an entirely paranoid and polarised society I do not share the paranoia of which so many in your country are blighted.. {snipped for brevity}

Excellent response. For myself, I’m not an atheist but more of a cross between a theist and deist. This is to say, by virtue of my observation of the natural world and my reason, I would conclude that there is, as I like to put it, a “supreme divinity” or omnipotent primal force in this universe. Unlike the deist, I believe this ethereal or otherwise unseen astral power interacts with us humans in ways we cannot readily comprehend.

Like you, I believe in the fundamental goodness of people, despite our long and sanguineous history of self-destruction under the guise of religion or political ideology.

[Long Duck Dong]

Common knowledge? I know now why fast food chains put the warning on coffee cups"caution hot contents"...especially for the likes of you that dont do knowledge lol

I unfortunately missed out the word resupply in the original text...but the sentiment is EXACTLY the same. I don't consider eating desert rats and scorpions a adequete replacement for a "normal meal" nor digging in sand for water "healthy" . Maybe you eat vermin and dont bathe, we civilised people have standards you obviously lack. :eek:

we civilised people have standards ??? lol that reminds me of the US vets that refused to go out into the field without their icecream rations

deep sleep snipers piss and shit in their pants rather than move and give away their position..... are they not civilised people anymore ?

nam vets often pissed and shit in their own pants as the enemy would use toliet stops to track troop movement.......are they not civilised people any more

you remind me of the * cut lunch commandos * as we call them in NZ, that think that getting out of bed before 8 am is cruel and unusual punishment.... and I am not drawing into question, your military service or your thinking... but your clear lack of understanding of what some military personnel do out in the field...... and they are no less civilised than any of us....... they just go beyond the extremes in order to do their duty and come home again in one piece

[bigbadmax]

LDD,

I was a "forward unit" and the point I was trying to make, obviously not that clear, was that hardships took place, that people like pepper do not comprehend.

I am FULLY aware of skills used to limit compromising an operation, however in day to day life in the military, standards prevail and without adequate supplies then adaptations need to come into force. Hygiene is one of those standards that does get compromised, however when possible it was adhered to strictly.

The biggest morale boost came when we had a porcelain portaloo/portalet delivered....not much but by god did it feel good! I can survive in any terrain and in any hardship, it does not mean that I will yomp 20 miles to buy a pint of milk or defecaete into a bag and dispose of it later.

[Long Duck Dong]

I used to do possum ( spelt opossum ) trapping when I was younger, they are classed as pests in NZ.... 2 weeks at a time, in the bush, no toilet, everything cooked over a fire, water from a stream, no shower, wearing the same clothes for two weeks, getting covered in blood and guts every night, and working in pouring rain and mud, clearing the traps every day ( 700 traps ) and night shooting with a spotlight.....

it was different to being out on military service as its civilian work as opposed to military work... but it can give any person a understanding of what it can be like to be in the military and similar conditions....

there are a lot of similarities between aspects of civilian life and military life.... and the only times that I really go after people about what they say about civilian life and military life, is when they have no bloody idea what they are talking about.... IE statements as to why we serve, whats in our heads and hearts, what we are doing and why we do it ( not who we are following orders from ).... and what its like for us when we come home... or in the case of many of us, our bodies come home, our minds never do, and we spend the rest of our lifes trying to be a part of society, when we return to society and realise that what we left.... is something so alien and abnormal to us, when we return to civilian life..... and that is the key difference between military personnel and civilians.... we got to see society from the outside.....

yes I am jaded, yes I am twisted, no the military never did that to me... society did..... the military only gave me a way to see what I could not see from the inside looking out......

[darkeyes]

Nip nip nip nip nip.. tf I dont have the military mind.. I'd bloody shoot mesel... or worse.. spend half an hour in Cumbernauld an' bore mesel to death...

[Hephaestion]

Pepperjack's concern at 'no water for 14 days' entirely understood meaning NO (NONE) water for 14 days. Also understand LDD's point about tracking troop movements through their supplies and personal habits (see also below).

Don't covert forward units go native to conceal their presence i.e. they eat the local food and follow the same bathing habits of the locals to remain hidden over a protracted period to prepare for action. Spraints would then be indistinguishable from that of the locals. In VietNam the adversaray knew where 'USA Joe' was by the smell of aftershave and the loud posturing. Conversely Brit troops in Malaysia blended in. Perhaps this is a penalty of fully equipped mobile war (the sort that crippled the Germans in Russia?).

Recent comment on The current campaigns - "....the USA looked after their troops with full kit and homes away from home, whereas we Brits had to beg borrow and steal......" (no change there then as Scottish locals may know). "....The only thing that the USA troops wanted from us Brits was our cookers...." (Huh?)

Were soldiers uncivilised in soiling themselves? Waste smells in its own right and can result in 'disease' if not location betrayal and can only be seen as very short term desparation. Borrowed from elsewhere, the veneer of civilization is exceedingly thin. And as 'civis' means a citizen (living in a city), one follows the obvious challenge, although, the intended meaning is understood.

Ain't semantics awful?

[darkeyes]

..and getting back to the point... bad applery and exceptionalism...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/18/british-soldiers-afghanistan-child-abuse-claims

not prejudging, just drawing to ur attention...

[darkeyes]

Recent comment on The current campaigns - "....the USA looked after their troops with full kit and homes away from home, whereas we Brits had to beg borrow and steal......" (no change there then as Scottish locals may know). "....The only thing that the USA troops wanted from us Brits was our cookers...." (Huh?)


Oi u ya daft ole bugga.. nice law abidin lot up 'ere.. ne way.. me mum comes from round Manchester.. she would say that 'bout scousers... don't stopya car at traffic lites in Scouseland cos ya wheels disappear quick as a flash..:tong:

..aint stereotypin awful? I like scousers...:)

[bigbadmax]

Fran,

dont start on scousers...Its the one accent I adore in people...its kinda lazy but sexy.......we always said that you should nevva smile as they would nick yer gold fillings lmao.

bbm

[bigbadmax]

Haeph,

Didnt see that thred ref cookers but i can elaborate slightly.

U.K forces have hexiblock stoves as they are lightwight and easy to carry as Ration packs are a 24 hr meal divided into brekkie lunch n tea with lods of sweets and drinks making stuff....its engineered to either bung you up (food) or unblock you (hot chocolate) hexistoves are used to heat water and meals.

U.S forces have Meals Ready to Eat (MRE) which from memory have an exothermic reacyion when you crack them (like hand warmers). MRE's are for ONE meal and dont allow for heating of tea or coffee...hence the sceptics (tanks/Yanks) wanted our cookers.

The other things they coveted were our SA 80's due to weight and biological warfare suits as they were vacuum packed and agin very easy to carry.
We used to swap kit left right and chelsea as we got the kit for free, howver the yanks had to pay for any issues after theri initial one (like all british officers)

In relation to whomever stated that forward units go "local" bit of a misnoma...if sneaky beaky then yes this is very true, however not all units go in as sneaky beaky. We were a forward unit and supposedly had a resupply chain which was basically a farce.....was quicker to have eqpt etc sent straight from our rear party (those back in uk) to us via BFPO as we were guaranteed to get it and not have it pillaged...although this system worked too well as we were getting other units requesting from us.

as clear as mud hey lol

[darkeyes]

Fran,

dont start on scousers...Its the one accent I adore in people...its kinda lazy but sexy.......we always said that you should nevva smile as they would nick yer gold fillings lmao.

bbm

I like them too Max..wasnt kidding about that.. tend 2 like most peeps... is just a standin joke among me mum's family... touch of cityism.. bit like the rivalry tween us an that lot through in the west.. an I like them an all fore ne starts....:bigrin:

[bigbadmax]

welsh valley's accents are top notch as well!

[bigbadmax]

Not to get too historical,

During the second world war, U.S spies could be spotted by two things...the way they held thier knife and fork and surprisingly by the way they tied their shoes....europeans tied their shoes (at that time) straight across not crossed over.

[keefer728]

Not to get too historical,

During the second world war, U.S spies could be spotted by two things...the way they held thier knife and fork and surprisingly by the way they tied their shoes....europeans tied their shoes (at that time) straight across not crossed over.

One other thing, Max. I've been to Germany and Switzerland, but when in Switzerland on business, I noticed how they count three when holding up a hand to example it; thumb, index and middle finger. In the movie Inglorious Bastards, a British spy was caught by a German officer, by displaying the number three with his fingers; index, middle and ring, exactly how us Americans display it. Food for thought.

[Hephaestion]

Oi u ya daft ole bugga.. nice law abidin lot up 'ere.. ne way.. me mum comes from round Manchester.. she would say that 'bout scousers... don't stopya car at traffic lites in Scouseland cos ya wheels disappear quick as a flash..:tong:

..aint stereotypin awful? I like scousers...:)

Have yer misunderstood dearest Darkeyes?

When the British army does survival training of the elite boys, they are often released into various wild Scottish areas. Thus the locals complain incessantly that their livestock and clothes usually go missing as the 'boys' show 'initiative' to survive the unpleasant weather.

.

[pepperjack]

I used to do possum ( spelt opossum ) trapping when I was younger, they are classed as pests in NZ.... 2 weeks at a time, in the bush, no toilet, everything cooked over a fire, water from a stream, no shower, wearing the same clothes for two weeks, getting covered in blood and guts every night, and working in pouring rain and mud, clearing the traps every day ( 700 traps ) and night shooting with a spotlight.....

it was different to being out on military service as its civilian work as opposed to military work... but it can give any person a understanding of what it can be like to be in the military and similar conditions....

there are a lot of similarities between aspects of civilian life and military life.... and the only times that I really go after people about what they say about civilian life and military life, is when they have no bloody idea what they are talking about.... IE statements as to why we serve, whats in our heads and hearts, what we are doing and why we do it ( not who we are following orders from ).... and what its like for us when we come home... or in the case of many of us, our bodies come home, our minds never do, and we spend the rest of our lifes trying to be a part of society, when we return to society and realise that what we left.... is something so alien and abnormal to us, when we return to civilian life..... and that is the key difference between military personnel and civilians.... we got to see society from the outside.....

yes I am jaded, yes I am twisted, no the military never did that to me... society did..... the military only gave me a way to see what I could not see from the inside looking out......

And when max claims I cant' comprehend hardship, he has "no bloody idea what he's talking about." In my 30's & 40's I was considered too hard core by some of my peers because of my lifestyle.

[pepperjack]

Pepperjack's concern at 'no water for 14 days' entirely understood meaning NO (NONE) water for 14 days. Also understand LDD's point about tracking troop movements through their supplies and personal habits (see also below).

Don't covert forward units go native to conceal their presence i.e. they eat the local food and follow the same bathing habits of the locals to remain hidden over a protracted period to prepare for action. Spraints would then be indistinguishable from that of the locals. In VietNam the adversaray knew where 'USA Joe' was by the smell of aftershave and the loud posturing. Conversely Brit troops in Malaysia blended in. Perhaps this is a penalty of fully equipped mobile war (the sort that crippled the Germans in Russia?).

Recent comment on The current campaigns - "....the USA looked after their troops with full kit and homes away from home, whereas we Brits had to beg borrow and steal......" (no change there then as Scottish locals may know). "....The only thing that the USA troops wanted from us Brits was our cookers...." (Huh?)

Were soldiers uncivilised in soiling themselves? Waste smells in its own right and can result in 'disease' if not location betrayal and can only be seen as very short term desparation. Borrowed from elsewhere, the veneer of civilization is exceedingly thin. And as 'civis' means a citizen (living in a city), one follows the obvious challenge, although, the intended meaning is understood.

Ain't semantics awful?

Thank you Heph. :)

[darkeyes]

Have yer misunderstood dearest Darkeyes?

When the British army does survival training of the elite boys, they are often released into various wild Scottish areas. Thus the locals complain incessantly that their livestock and clothes usually go missing as the 'boys' show 'initiative' to survive the unpleasant weather.

.

Soz Heph I did misunderstand... I had heard of it, but never come across it... not even at me dad's cottage up north.. all I can say is if ne squaddie nicks me mums nix off the line he will find himself in deep poop.. or at least deep peat... mum isnt nice like me.. she doesnt mind hurting people or making them disappear...;)

[pepperjack]

Common knowledge? I know now why fast food chains put the warning on coffee cups"caution hot contents"...especially for the likes of you that dont do knowledge lol

I unfortunately missed out the word resupply in the original text...but the sentiment is EXACTLY the same. I don't consider eating desert rats and scorpions a adequete replacement for a "normal meal" nor digging in sand for water "healthy" . Maybe you eat vermin and dont bathe, we civilised people have standards you obviously lack. :eek:

Speaking of civilized, and standards, I'm going to quote a favorite Bible scripture which has bolstered me throughout my adult life ( don't go ballistic! just one scripture; not thumping:bigrin:) " Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." 2nd Timothy,2:3. You're simply indulging in the verbal dance of trying to save face, as outrageous liars tend to do. And hitting below the belt insult & ridicule seem to be your forte.:rolleyes:

[bigbadmax]

Speaking of civilized, and standards, I'm going to quote a favorite Bible scripture which has bolstered me throughout my adult life ( don't go ballistic! just one scripture; not thumping:bigrin:) " Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ." 2nd Timothy,2:3. You're simply indulging in the verbal dance of trying to save face, as outrageous liars tend to do. And hitting below the belt insult & ridicule seem to be your forte.:rolleyes:

Oh I'm a liar you biggot....You hide behind the writings of men who were racist, sexist and above all hypocrites....The bible may be written for man but it was written BY men, as were ALL religious documents. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" (some monk writing after sleeping with a prostitute...to make him feel better after his so called sin).

[keefer728]

Oh I'm a liar you biggot....You hide behind the writings of men who were racist, sexist and above all hypocrites....The bible may be written for man but it was written BY men, as were ALL religious documents. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" (some monk writing after sleeping with a prostitute...to make him feel better after his so called sin).

Max, please don't reduce yourself to saying things that you do not mean. I see you ranting and Pepper being a gent in what he says. Now, to those of us viewing this, who do you think one is more inclined to side with? I am of the view of Pepper when it comes to the Bible, I would expect and hope that you would respect that, as I would if you were an athiest. Only difference, I may pray for you. :cool:

[bigbadmax]

Max, please don't reduce yourself to saying things that you do not mean. I see you ranting and Pepper being a gent in what he says. Now, to those of us viewing this, who do you think one is more inclined to side with? I am of the view of Pepper when it comes to the Bible, I would expect and hope that you would respect that, as I would if you were an athiest. Only difference, I may pray for you. :cool:

Keefer, all religion is there to control the masses. I do have my religion but I DONT RAM it down peoples throats, Pepper is a zealot who feels that he can argue his way through life with scriptures.

However I am not attacking his religion, but to point out that his scriptures are biased in the point that they were written by men who were HEAVILY influenced at the time of writing by their morals and attitudes to life...hence his rose coloured spectacles.

To call pepper a gent...well thats another thing entirely.

[keefer728]

Keefer, all religion is there to control the masses. I do have my religion but I DONT RAM it down peoples throats, Pepper is a zealot who feels that he can argue his way through life with scriptures.

However I am not attacking his religion, but to point out that his scriptures are biased in the point that they were written by men who were HEAVILY influenced at the time of writing by their morals and attitudes to life...hence his rose coloured spectacles.

To call pepper a gent...well thats another thing entirely.

2 Timothy 3:16 NIV

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Now, for a Christian, Max...this is what we believe. It does not make one a zealot, just one who believes that the Bible is the uninterupted word of the living God. If the word bigot is going to be used, I would ask that the person look in the mirror before uttering it. Again, I would like to appeal to your intelligence and suggest that you are better than this.

[bigbadmax]

2 Timothy 3:16 NIV

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Now, for a Christian, Max...this is what we believe. It does not make one a zealot, just one who believes that the Bible is the uninterupted word of the living God. If the word bigot is going to be used, I would ask that the person look in the mirror before uttering it. Again, I would like to appeal to your intelligence and suggest that you are better than this.

So if the christian faith is all seeing and infaliable (?) then why are you on this site as sleeping with a person of the same gender is against your doctrine? or did I miss the double standards lecture in school religion?

not having a go...just pointing out how "christians" especially born again christians, pick and choose their scriptures and also take every opportunity to quote these, not only to incite hatred but try to position their religion as top dog.

[keefer728]

Max, Max, Max. Do not think for a second that these questions do not run in my mind. There is a person on this site, whom I have grown to love and deeply respect that I share my thoughts with, and this is one of them. What I see in your responses, is an almost viscereal reaction, like someone enduring an exorcism. I did not chastise you, call you out, put you to a test; what I did was to encourage a more robust and even headed response from you. Shakespear said something that isn't etherial though; "the lady doth protest too much, me thinks" You're no lady, but the point being made is that when we argue so against something, well...take religion, it could very well be said, that it is something that is bothering us internally. Maybe the question you put to me, is also a question that is very unsettled within yourself. I do wish you peace and never a hard feeling from me.

[bigbadmax]

keefer many thanks but the question is not of me... I am at peace and serene with myself.

When people question me I answer, I may not like the answer but have to accept it. I do however feel that pepper is one of those people who hides behinds his scriptures and does not accept any points of view apart from his.

I accept other ways of life but may not agree with them, what i do disagree with is pepper thinking he can attack me personally and in matters on the military which he has no idea about.

I will not follow blindly the masses as I have my own mind and opinion. My Religion gives me comfort when needed but I will not be pushed,shoved filed or numbered into accepting mans interpretation of "Gods" word...if everyone did then LGBT would be outlawed worlwide and the original thread would not have happened due to religious tollerance.

[void()]

The function of mythology is to bring man into line with nature. All
myths are one. -- Joseph Campbell Author of _The Hero of A Thousand Faces_ , _The Hero's Journey_

Religions are myths ultimately as Campbell explains. No need to respond, merely tossing in food for thought and am gone again.

[Light_and_Dark]

I will not follow blindly the masses as I have my own mind and opinion. My Religion gives me comfort when needed but I will not be pushed,shoved filed or numbered into accepting mans interpretation of "Gods" word...if everyone did then LGBT would be outlawed worlwide and the original thread would not have happened due to religious tollerance.

I myself am a Christian...though maybe with a more tempered view of the Bible then most. I do not hold sway to any religion(any of enlightenment will know that Christianity itself is not a religion but a doctrine or belief system as of john 3:16). Even if everyone held sway that the Bible is as I believe it as Gods word written with man's hand...The lgbt community would still be there maybe not in the same manner it is there today but its existence would still be there.

I could get into the argument you two were discussing a thread or two up for a whole day...but it would make no difference so not going to cover the bi-sexual bible reading here. My main point is that human beings are not perfect and should not view themselves this way...So even though someone is bisexual it merely states their own humanity. Figured I would throw my two cents on the matter.....

[pepperjack]

Oh I'm a liar you biggot....You hide behind the writings of men who were racist, sexist and above all hypocrites....The bible may be written for man but it was written BY men, as were ALL religious documents. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" (some monk writing after sleeping with a prostitute...to make him feel better after his so called sin).

Now YOUR ignorance is out of bounds. That was actually something Jesus said when defending a woman caught in the act of adultery and you have to completely distort it. And yes, I am a bigot toward offensive and demeaning people such as you. I remember you referring to me as slime in the gutter after a very harmless remark I posted so who attacked whom personally first? Keefer is right when he says you have this intense reaction. And now you start a new thread lecturing others on politeness. If that isn't abject hypocrisy, I don't know what is. I know you mean zealot in a negative connotation but I choose to see it as a compliment because I am passionate about certain personal beliefs. I don't see how my quoting an occasional scripture is any different than someone posting a hyperlink or a secular quote to validate & emphasize a point. I grew up in a military family, the oldest of four sons. Dad was a hard-nosed career man who had his own personal squad to whip into shape. Mom was a former WW2 German refugee. So, the military definitely rubbed off on me and I grew into a very strong, rugged man, & still am. You,on the other hand, look every bit the Rambo wannabe wuss you are, trying to "loose" your beer belly.

[darkeyes]

I very much doubt that Jesus, if indeed he did say what he is supposed to have said regarding stones and sin, would have intended the restricting of his sentiments to adultery...

[bigbadmax]

Thank you Fran,

The context is not just about adultery, but life as a whole.

Just shows the ignorance of pepper on quoting scripture.

[bigbadmax]

Now YOUR ignorance is out of bounds. That was actually something Jesus said when defending a woman caught in the act of adultery and you have to completely distort it. And yes, I am a bigot toward offensive and demeaning people such as you. I remember you referring to me as slime in the gutter after a very harmless remark I posted so who attacked whom personally first? Keefer is right when he says you have this intense reaction. And now you start a new thread lecturing others on politeness. If that isn't abject hypocrisy, I don't know what is. I know you mean zealot in a negative connotation but I choose to see it as a compliment because I am passionate about certain personal beliefs. I don't see how my quoting an occasional scripture is any different than someone posting a hyperlink or a secular quote to validate & emphasize a point. I grew up in a military family, the oldest of four sons. Dad was a hard-nosed career man who had his own personal squad to whip into shape. Mom was a former WW2 German refugee. So, the military definitely rubbed off on me and I grew into a very strong, rugged man, & still am. You,on the other hand, look every bit the Rambo wannabe wuss you are, trying to "loose" your beer belly.

Pepper I can change my fitness and my point of view, you on the other hand appear to be so embittered that change is not acustomed to you, nor will it ever be.

[pepperjack]

Pepper I can change my fitness and my point of view, you on the other hand appear to be so embittered that change is not acustomed to you, nor will it ever be.

And you are such a blatant case of the pot calling the kettle black.

[pepperjack]

I very much doubt that Jesus, if indeed he did say what he is supposed to have said regarding stones and sin, would have intended the restricting of his sentiments to adultery...

You're right, it's not meant to be restricted to adultery. I was simply pointing out the incident in his ministry where scripture records he said it.

[Canticle]

Not necessarily. A lot of us atheists are not overly fond of Islam either. But, on the other hand, we generally seem to be contemptuous of most religion.




Since when did you become an atheist? You've always insisted that you are not, but neither were you a believer in a 'personal god,' as found in Judeo/Christian/Islamic beliefs. I know you are influenced by an atheist, but that and repeating verbatum, what you have both read in books and done amateur study upon, is not a true study of religion/faith/belief, etc. Just another example of the indepth study you and your platonic, female housemate/conjoined twin, do. Many areas covered, including sexuality, religion and how to use people and all fake. Praise be that you are now deleted from my life.