exactly who is a minority?

[bigbadmax]

Dianne Abbot, a popular tv political pundit and Labour Mp (those on the left side of the political spectrum- Conservatives or Tory's are considered right of spectrum), has ignited the lethal race question.

The row began when Ms Abbott tweeted: ''White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game''.

Now Miss Abbot is very pro anti-racism but has she gone too far in supporting minorities to the degree that she now sees whites as a problem figure and thus become racist towards whites?

As an MP people tend to listen, and can positive discrimination ever be fair?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16424851

discuss..........

[Gearbox]

Any MP who doesn't have enough common sense not to Twitter crap like that should surely be sacked. Never mind the racism! Her idiocy is bad enough!:eek:

[keefer201]

What I find disconcerting, is that a country that brought democracy and ethics across the globe is now being whittled down to nothing by self loathing Brits. I really hate to say this, but the UK is all but a by-word when spoken of. Where's that great British pride that civilized the world?

[bigbadmax]

keefer, we are turning like the USA....however one rotten apple does not a barrel make.

In austere times, blame is king unless sense prevails.

[darkeyes]

Dianne Abbot, a popular tv political pundit and Labour Mp (those on the left side of the political spectrum- Conservatives or Tory's are considered right of spectrum), has ignited the lethal race question.

The row began when Ms Abbott tweeted: ''White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game''.

Now Miss Abbot is very pro anti-racism but has she gone too far in supporting minorities to the degree that she now sees whites as a problem figure and thus become racist towards whites?

As an MP people tend to listen, and can positive discrimination ever be fair?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16424851

discuss..........

If what she says as reported is accurate it is a very broad sweep and somewhat stupid.. however.. divide and rule in British society has always been by the ruling classes the way to hold on to its power wealth and influence even when there has been a different change of (political) colour at the helm of state... the elite of British society is white, rich and has power and influence beyond its merit and our dreams so while she is not right, there is more than a whiff of truth in what she says...

...and what is also true.. is that a largish minority of white people in British society are taken in by the elite and play their game.. and so a little more whiff is added to truth... and a large numbers of non whites by resentment of and reaction to the racism which divide and rule perpetuates are often as racist as those of the worst of the majority ethnic population and so add a further whiff of truth to what is an inaccurate yet quite understandable statement...

...in principle positive discrimination is unfair.. yet positive discrimination has been with us since the earliest days of humanity... and even within our society now, positive discrimination in favour of the elite in society is hale and hearty...the old school tie, Oxbridge preference in employment, even for entry into the Oxbridge involves positive discrimination of the most odious kind.. positive discrimination for ethnic minorities is intended to redress the balance but has proven a failure in part because that too has become a divide and rule philosphy of the elite... witness the resentment to it among many ordinary (white) British people and the resentment among ethnic minorites that it does not go near far enough... people grumble about positive discrimination for the elite even although they do not think of it as such but that is what it is.. they get much more animated and bitter about it for the lower orders whatever their ethnic origin but in respect of non whites mostly......

Divide and rule is especially efffective among less well educated populations and poorer whites and blacks in particular are the least well educated in our society... Diane Abbot was wrong.. but not entirely so..

[bigbadmax]

Fran I agree antirely.

I know the sentiment behind what she is saying but the media do blow things out of proportion, however ANY public figure has to mind their p's and q's.

I may not agree with the Labour party but do have a soft spot for Dianne as she DOES speak her mind....unfortunately in this instance to her detriment.

Will miss her on a thursday night if she goes for good. Itchy and Scratchy lives lol.

[darkeyes]

c
I may not agree with the Labour party but do have a soft spot for Dianne as she DOES speak her mind....unfortunately in this instance to her detriment.


Me an all Max... like 'er a lot.... she kissed me 1ce.... not a snog ya dirty bugga... at a Labour Party conference when I was about 9 (no I wasnt a delegate.. me dad wos)...

[bigbadmax]

I think Politicians should say more, far too many don't want to rock the boat (forget her name at mo but rides a motorbike methinks)...


I have always admired the beast of bolsover...wish i was more inclined to politics but cant get past the spineless brigade who promise everything and deliver nothing...no matter what colour rosette they wear.

[dafydd]

What I find disconcerting, is that a country that brought democracy and ethics across the globe is now being whittled down to nothing by self loathing Brits. I really hate to say this, but the UK is all but a by-word when spoken of. Where's that great British pride that civilized the world?

Britain also brought some rather unethical values across the globe, not least the criminalisation of male homosexuality, and puritan Victorian values, which didn't even believe lesbians existed. And don't forget what we did to that big patch of land over across the Atlantic and those damn savages that lived there.
Despite that...
Not sure how you see Britain now as being whittled down, and by who exactly? (self-loathing...where?). Don't confuse lack of an effusive patriotic pride as self-loathing. I thought it was well known that Brits were self-*effacing* with a healthy amount of modesty. We've never been a country who flies its flag on the front lawns of its citizens. It's actually slightly guache to be so patriotic. Anybody caught doing that might even be considered slighty eccentric (or a fascist). We *like* being miserable and saying sorry and not accepting praise. We enjoy it.

Unlike some people in other less...regarded countries...we don't need to look down our family trees for evidence of a more interesting nation to claim patronage e.g. I'm 1/4 this, 1/4 that etc. You don't often hear a Brit describe their nationaly identity using the nationality of their great grandparents, grandparents or even parents. British is a nationality we're quite happy to be known by. Unless you're Scottish or Welsh..then it's important to stress that although you'r British, you're not actually English. British yes, but English no...

d

[æonpax]

Dianne Abbot, a popular tv political pundit and Labour Mp (those on the left side of the political spectrum- Conservatives or Tory's are considered right of spectrum), has ignited the lethal race question.
The row began when Ms Abbott tweeted: ''White people love playing 'divide & rule' We should not play their game''.
Now Miss Abbot is very pro anti-racism but has she gone too far in supporting minorities to the degree that she now sees whites as a problem figure and thus become racist towards whites?
As an MP people tend to listen, and can positive discrimination ever be fair?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16424851
discuss..........

Interesting question on both sides of the pond, especially about certain (not all) whites framing a question or issue.

Consider that GOP candidate Newt Gingrich had this to say today; "Gingrich to black people: paychecks, not food aid," http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/gingrich-to-black-people-1291126.html What makes this insidious is that the statement is framed to make it appear that only the blacks whom are on welfare, take food aid and are unemployed are the problem. Never mind the fact that there are a lot more whites on welfare, take food aid and are unemployed....but according to Newt, they are NOT a problem, only the blacks. Divide and conquer.

The question that needs to be asked of the republican community is do their conservatives really care about the black community out of altruistic concern for them or do they use the black issue to excite and pander to their base, who in reality don't care about what black Americans think or are experiencing?

Food for thought.

[Katja]

What I find disconcerting, is that a country that brought democracy and ethics across the globe is now being whittled down to nothing by self loathing Brits. I really hate to say this, but the UK is all but a by-word when spoken of. Where's that great British pride that civilized the world?

This is so obviously a nonsense. Rather than self loathing, among many British people there is an aloofness born of a sense of superiority over other races and nationalities which at time is quite disturbing. We have done nothing to justify such an attitude not even in days of empire when British power was at its peak.

British governments hang on to the coat tails of the United States not out of a sense of righteousness or rightness, but to be able to bask in the sun now that they no longer have much of their own left, and many consider themselves superior to their former colonial 'cousins' considering them brash, loud and somewhat common. Similarly they would prefer to retain ties with their former colonies of the old white commonwealth rather than fully involve themselves with the inferior races and ancient enemies who make up the European project.

Rather than bring democracy to the world the British suppressed it and oppressed many people preventing them from achieving democracy. Where Britain did aid the creation of democratic freedom in nations this was out of British self interest and they were as likely to side with Caliphs and other despots as to send gunboats or expeditions to bring freedom and democracy.

It is interesting that where democratic institutions tended yo be founded in the empire these were founded in parts where white British people were in sufficient numbers to allow them such freedoms. What we consider as the white commonwealth; Australia, New Zealand and Canada, but was as much ease of administering a colony as any desire to grant democratic choice. This was much less the case where they were a small minority in parts of the empire such as India and most African colonies. Democracy had to be fought for in many places and often this was resisted in the most brutal way. Any kind of freedom, democratic or not was resisted often with extreme brutality.

The British have not nearly as much of which to be proud as they consider. The British live a life of illusion about their history and imperial past which was never what many believe it to have been. As a nation we have an inbuilt arrogance which we would do well to lose.

[tenni]

A few decades ago, there use to be a term "reverse racism" to refer to a minority speaker showing bigotry to the majority(usually white). One rather wise black lesbian (double marginalized minority) said when she heard that comment that there is no reverse racism. There is only racism regardless of the race of the speaker.

However, this speaker states that her words were taken out of context of the other tweets. I'd like to read the context that she made this statement.

[jamieknyc]

Democracy had to be fought for in many places and often this was resisted in the most brutal way. Any kind of freedom, democratic or not was resisted often with extreme brutality.
.

Actually, the only parts of the British Empire that had to fight a war of independence against the British were the United States, Kenya and Israel.

[darkeyes]

Actually, the only parts of the British Empire that had to fight a war of independence against the British were the United States, Kenya and Israel.

Israel was never part of the empire but a UN mandate.. but u ignore the mutiny and many other wars which were fought in India against the British, in Malaya, by the Boers and Zulu, and by many other tribal people throughout the empire... Kat is right.. the British crushed rebellion wherever it was found and it was found throughout the empire.. from the Maori in NZ, the Afghans, and even in Canada rebellion occured in the 19th century and throughout Africa and Asia.. the British crushed freedom wherever it reared its head among indigenous people much in the way the US did of its native population.. the British in fact did their share of that too in North America if not quite on such a grand scale... and they aided other Imperial powers deprive their colonies of freedom... French Indo China for instance after the second world war.... as well as assisting some to gain theirs... but those colonies, such as Chile and the Argentine, became quasi colonies of the empire...it suited the British.. just as much of Arabia became quasi British colonies after they were freed from Turkish rule after the first world war... and outwith the empire we should not forget the Opium Wars or the Boxer rebellion.. and after WW1 the former German colonies of Africa were not granted freedom but absorbed into empire and they too often felt the "gentle" touch of British repression... freedom was allowed only in terms that the British would allow.. and it was often not as paternalistic as we are led to believe and in reality no real liberty at all...

You do not have to have a great national war of independence within a recognised boundary to know that there is a war of freedom and liberation going on... within the empire these went on throughout its existence.. national boundaries are artificial and throughout the days of empire those in the north of India felt little affinity to those in the south.. British India was a morass of small states and principalities many of whom hated each other... but they hated the British even more there were frequent risings against them led by rulers or much more ordinary tribespeople.. even throughout Ghandi's non violent protests there were frequent outbreaks of rebellion in parts of the jewel in the crown of empire and certainly much violence which it can easily be argued was part of a war against empire...

Britain and its empire continually were involved in wars somewhere within its confines and without.. it was not only the empire upon which the sun never set.. but on Britain's determination to rule its empire in any way shape or form it saw fit.. and the sun never set on brutal repression even with its demise.. others, often aided by the former colonial power may have long since taken over that mantle but even now the sticky fingers of that former imperial power still involve themselves in doing just the same thing in much of what it once ruled and where it does not belong...

[jamieknyc]

Technically you are right about the mandate, but within two years the British Colonial Office tore up its mandate commitments and ruled the country as a de facto colony until the British were forced to leave.

However, although there were local wars and rebeliions throughout the British Empire at various times, that does not change the fact that in most places there was a peaceful transition to independence.

[darkeyes]

Technically you are right about the mandate, but within two years the British Colonial Office tore up its mandate commitments and ruled the country as a de facto colony until the British were forced to leave.

However, although there were local wars and rebeliions throughout the British Empire at various times, that does not change the fact that in most places there was a peaceful transition to independence.

Much was relatively peaceful when it came to transferring power.. but in the end the British lost its empire as much due to poverty and overstretch as to any real desire to grant peoples their independence..and the US played its part in the break up of the empire much to their credit although on the debit side this was because of their own self interest as much as for any other more altruistic reason... Britain after world war 2 was simply too weak to resist the ultimate disintegration of the empire..

In any case Jamie, a peaceful transition does not exonerate successive British governments for up to 3 centuries of piracy, cruelty and repression...

[tenni]

"However, although there were local wars and rebeliions throughout the British Empire at various times, that does not change the fact that in most places there was a peaceful transition to independence."

hmm I think that this discussion is more than slightly off topic but I am partially inclined to agree with you Jamie on one side. On the other it does read a bit egocentric. Unless your country violently separated from Britain (like the US) you had a peaceful transition. Katja's points are still very valid. There was a lot of aggression and violence against aboriginal people that the British and other European countries invaded. There was the violence that defeated the French in present day Quebec and ended New France in North America(much to present day Quebecois' distaste and dislike still today). There was violence from the US invading Upper Canada what is now Canada's Ontario and the British repelled the US hooligans....:tong::bigrin: (thank gawd:bigrin:)

The countries that remained part of the British Commonwealth may be seen as peacefully transitioning to independence..yes. What's your point in connection to the thread topic again?

[Gearbox]

She's not safe with a phone in her hand! Twittering racist remarks AGAIN!:eek:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083252/Diane-Abbott-sparks-ANOTHER-Twitter-race-row-branding-taxi-drivers-racist.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
She'd be sacked from the local post office for less!lol

[darkeyes]

She's not safe with a phone in her hand! Twittering racist remarks AGAIN!:eek:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2083252/Diane-Abbott-sparks-ANOTHER-Twitter-race-row-branding-taxi-drivers-racist.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
She'd be sacked from the local post office for less!lol

Oh I dunno 'bout that... have heard some dodgy rmearks by Post Office counter peeps in me time...

.. will just relate a lil story of last time I was in the smoke.. standin at Victoria station tarted up as ya do for a nite out, waitin' for a cab l8 at nite, me m8 and I finally got 2 head of the Q, and a cab pulled up an big burly black guy all teeth and smiles said 2 us.. "Where u goin', ladies? You sure you want my cab?" Me m8 just laffed and sed "Dont b daft, Peckam Rye please..."... 'e wos a nice chatty bugger wich not all cab drivers r... but it spoke volumes 2 me bout racism an cabs, dunno bout u lot...

[Gearbox]

e wos a nice chatty bugger wich not all cab drivers r...
:rolleyes:....chatty cabby........2 attractive ladies.....:rolleyes:....dolled up....night out....:rolleyes:....party mood....:tongue:
It's JUST a guess! But I'd be willing to bet £3.50 that it had more to do with testosterone than colour.:bigrin:

The sly old cockney chancer! I'd have reported him and his devilish glint.:rolleyes: :tongue:

[bigbadmax]

the only problems ive ever had with cabbies is trying to get one to go south of the river after 10.00pm however,

At the rememberence sunday parade at the cenotaph, there were FREE taxis for ex service personnel..going to certain areas of London and also for those outside of london near to cabbies homes.......2nd year running, and boy were they needed and appreciated...bad word for licensed cabbies...I definately dont think so.

The salt of the earth and blinding if not diamond geezers the lot of em.

[elian]

The sense of entitlement brought about by the doctrine of manifest destiny has injured a LOT of people throughout history.

"The west was won"

"This ship is unsinkable"

"Glory to the fatherland"

"White Power"

"Black Power"

..errgh..

A child of five knows what it's like to be singled out and yet we still persist in hurting others.

The conservatives are right, this world is lacking in morals, but they seem to have no idea which morals are the important ones, As long as we consider it as "us" vs. "them" it will never change, I'll be happy to get off this rock as soon as possible.

Play it again, Sam..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erqJF_ppqbk

<sighs>

[elian]

I love these guys - several of their billboards around here..

http://www.values.com/inspirational-sayings-billboards
http://www.values.com/inspirational-stories-tv-spots