CHOICE OR NOT?

[ckman314]

I am a open bi male and me and my wife argue she thinks being gay or bi is a choice and in most cases mostly for young woman a fad. Me being bi I feel that its just the way I'm wired I dont choose too find men attractive or enjoy having sex with men I have a natural desire too do these things. So my question is are there any gay or bi boys and girls who think its a choice?

[keefer201]

This question is already on the forums, but being that I'm here I'll toss in my opinion in very few words. It's a choice. There is also a very interesting word to look up while we're on this; "id" look it up. It speaks volumes to this question.

[Fun guy 6969]

Don't think it is a choice being bi or not either you are or you are not.
The choice is wether you act on it or not.

[lizard-lix]

I agree with Keefer that it is on the forum in many places.

I will completely disagree with Keefer that it is a choice.. Acting on it is a choice, but the feelings are not.

I've been bi all my life, but I have been married an monogamous for over 30 years. Given that I have dreams about sex with men, have a physical reaction to good looking men just as I do to god looking women and get as hard from bi or gay porn as I do from straight porn, and all it does is pretty much torture me; I don't think it is much of a choice.

Not to mention that a whole lot of scientists seem to agree..

(and I know what 'id' means, and if wanting physical relations with both sexes is from the id, then again, I do not see it as a choice, I see it as a fundamental drive, i.e. part of the person with that drive, not a choice. If the superego says no for whatever reason, that is just sublimation)

[Jobelorocks]

You cannot help who you are attracted to , but you can choose what to do with your attractions. So people of all sexualities can be monogamous, polyamorous, swingers, celibate, and everywhere in between. Straight people can't just decide one day to be attracted to the same gender, gay people can't just decide to be attracted to the opposite gender, bi people can't change being attracted to both genders, and pansexuals are can't change being attracted to men, women, gender queer people, androgynous people, and intersex people.

[Gearbox]

We may have no idea that we'd enjoy a certain thing until we have tried it. However, deciding to try it is not deciding to enjoy it.;)

Marmite's slogan - "You either love it, or hate it!" is apt I think.
I never tried pizza until my late 30's because it looked disgusting to me. I was stranded in a Pizza Hut starving, so I tried it, telling myself "It's just cheese on toast!".lol Well surprisingly I liked it.:tongue:

Let that be a lesson to ALL hetero's out there! Give it a go! You never know!:bigrin:

[ballerbeauty]

sure it's a choice. i'm choosing to be happy. i'm choosing to be myself. i'm choosing not to lie to myself and other people for the sake of whats socially acceptable. As far as i'm concerned if being gay or bi is a choice, so is choosing to be straight. on a side note, bisexuality is a fad among teenage girls. i hate to admit it, but in some cases it's true. not to say that bisexuality doesn't exist in teens ( i myself being a bisexual teenage girl) but sadly some girls fake being bi to get the attention of boys. this my friend is the only instance where bisexuality is a choice, and even so that is not bisexuality at all.

[Realist]

I assume it COULD be a choice, but in my case, it is NOT.

Since my earliest memories I have been attracted to both genders. As soon as I understood what sexuality entailed, I was as drawn to one, as the other. I didn't choose to be that way, I just was.

At times, I have attempted to NOT be bisexual, but that was never a viable option. I could not refrain from being attracted to both genders. I fought it, I studied ways to become straight, sought psychological help, but nothing worked.

Whatever I am, it is not because I chose to be that way!

[innaminka]

I thought the world generally had passed on from there.
Of course it's not a choice.

That said, there was one snippet that I would partially (only a teensie bit) agree with.
- that among young women (late-teens/early 20's) there is a degree of experimentation - put frankly, some girls "put their toe in the water" even tho they are no more bi/gay than ...um .... well they're not.

Most get over it very, very quickly as often alcohol/party drugs may be involved.
But it does happen.
They then know what isn't for them.

And believe me I have this on the best possible advice.

[roy m cox]

hmmm im going to say not cuz ever sens i was in kindergarten i was always and i mean ALWAYS have been attracted to both genders = and at the same time if i can , i don't just think of a guy or girl i like to have them both not one or the other ..

[mikey3000]

For me it's a choice, and one I'm glad to make.

In order for me to make that choice, there has to be a natural attraction, and most people are attracted to some characteristics of both sexes. But some choose to not act on it. That is a choice too.

[elian]

SOME people may have emotional maturity issues and may be "confused" or some might be "curious" just to try it. I ALSO think that some people really ARE wired predisposed to have feelings of attraction for the same sex..

Gay men for example will look at a guy they are attracted to and dream about getting close to him in a romantic way or fantasize about doing things to his body.

Straight men just don't feel that way. My straight best friend said to me that if a gay man propositioned him he would be flattered, but he would view the man as a really, really ugly woman.

That's one reason that unrequited love that a gay or bi person has for a straight person really sucks because the straight person just doesn't think of the relationship that way at all.

If you are emotionally immature you can choose to learn to love yourself and gain more experience with relationships - it can be a long process and you may discover that you are LGBT or straight..

If you are curious and want to try it, I see plenty of cars along the highway at those adult bookstores..all those people are buying VHS porn tapes at 10PM at night on Sunday and that's ALL they're doing??! I don't think so.

If you happen to be one of those people who truly have feelings of attraction for the same sex then yes, you still do have a choice. You can sacrifice your own innate desires to please other people..it's not a fun choice to make..it can lead to a lot of heartache, but you might choose to do it anyway for various reasons.

For me, I'm "straight acting" most of the time but I find that I am wired to be more cooperative and less competitive - I don't fit the stereotypical male gender role..when we played football in gym class I really didn't know how to respond to the aggression, the other boys seemed to have a lot of experience, I just sort of shut down. I asked to walk the track instead.

[mikey3000]

When it comes to human nature, there is no hard and fast rules; nothing is carved in stone. For some they are born that way, for others it is a choice. Some are totally gay, others are just a little gay. Same for straights. Males and females. That's the wonderful thing about people. All are unique; just like everyone else.:cool:

[jem_is_bi]

I assume it COULD be a choice, but in my case, it is NOT.

Since my earliest memories I have been attracted to both genders. As soon as I understood what sexuality entailed, I was as drawn to one, as the other. I didn't choose to be that way, I just was.

At times, I have attempted to NOT be bisexual, but that was never a viable option. I could not refrain from being attracted to both genders. I fought it, I studied ways to become straight, sought psychological help, but nothing worked.

Whatever I am, it is not because I chose to be that way!

That is the way it is for me too.
When I was young I wanted to be straight. Now, I would rather be gay. But, I have come to accept that I will never be either and will always be bisexual.

[æonpax]

I'll start posting a list of people who support the pro-gay choice movement of the conservative right-wing. Let's start with the thrice married, low-life himself;


Newt Gingrich: Gay People Choose To Be Gay Like Priests Choose Celibacy ~ http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2011/12/15/390393/newt-gingrich-gay-people-choose-to-be-gay-like-priests-choose-celibacy/

[mikey3000]

LOL! Newt Gingrich? Yeah, he has no agenda to push, none at all. Keep em' comming. Next you'll quote Michelle Bachman.

[pepperjack]

This question is already on the forums, but being that I'm here I'll toss in my opinion in very few words. It's a choice. There is also a very interesting word to look up while we're on this; "id" look it up. It speaks volumes to this question.

Studied Dianetics briefly when it was popular in the late 80's and 90's; the "id" is referred to as "the reactive mind", basically, the subconscious mind and the content thereof which actually motivates & drives people. It was very revelatory for me. So, my opinion is.... id, the right combination of stimuli and choice.

[dafydd]

Don't think it is a choice being bi or not either you are or you are not.
The choice is wether you act on it or not.

FAN-BLOODY-TASTIC. Somebody's got it spot on!

please lets stop using the word 'choice'.

the question is:

"Is sexuality a result of nature of nurture?"

d

[void()]

FAN-BLOODY-TASTIC. Somebody's got it spot on!

please lets stop using the word 'choice'.

the question is:

"Is sexuality a result of nature of nurture?"

d

Even that question ultimately revolves back to choice or not. Frankly, I'm so tired of seeing this question posed. It seems a tactic to divide when there exists nothing to divide or conquer. Bisexuality simply exists, it is. The same is true for other sexualities. Why fear what is? Why not adapt a broader world view? Xenophobia, maybe?

Do we go around asking, "hey are you straight by choice or merely naturally so?" Which leads into the argument of bisexuality being unnatural. Look at nature. Pigs cover the spectrum of sexuality, as do dolphins and various 'animals'. And hey, here's a happy reminder, human beings are animals too.

Of course, this is probably all washed down as just my opinion. Fine. But please exclude me on any further discussion of nature or nurture, choice or natural. Have not known any other form of sexuality in my forty years of living. Even one is proof positive and there are many whom are bisexual.

[dafydd]

No it doesn't revolve back to choice at all. That's why I suggested it.
Nurture (enviromental factors) are not factors that you can choose.


Even that question ultimately revolves back to choice or not. Frankly, I'm so tired of seeing this question posed. It seems a tactic to divide when there exists nothing to divide or conquer. Bisexuality simply exists, it is. The same is true for other sexualities. Why fear what is? Why not adapt a broader world view? Xenophobia, maybe?

Do we go around asking, "hey are you straight by choice or merely naturally so?" Which leads into the argument of bisexuality being unnatural. Look at nature. Pigs cover the spectrum of sexuality, as do dolphins and various 'animals'. And hey, here's a happy reminder, human beings are animals too.

Of course, this is probably all washed down as just my opinion. Fine. But please exclude me on any further discussion of nature or nurture, choice or natural. Have not known any other form of sexuality in my forty years of living. Even one is proof positive and there are many whom are bisexual.

[Long Duck Dong]

most people will define as a range of options, yet when it comes to sexuality, they will argue that there is no options......

the first rule is * limit things down to personal sexuality, exclude any situation that can show where sexuality can become a choice or a aspect of a choice for some people "

the second rule is "base sexuality around own experience of sexuality and use that as the rule for everybody else "

the third rule is " ignore the fact that nobody has been able to prove that we are born the sexuality we are, nor prove that its a nature v's nurture aspect, beyond reasonable doubt for every body "

the 4th rule is " tell everybody that doesn't agree with us, that they are wrong "

people wonder why I have the stance that its a choice for some, not others.... and we still can not prove or disprove that that sexuality is or is not a choice..... we can only share from our personal understanding and knowledge of our own sexuality and there is enuf evidence to show that with sexuality being very diverse and fluid, that we may NEVER have a absolute answer, only theoretical options that will be pushed as proof.. and applied to everybody, upon which it will fail

[elian]

No it doesn't revolve back to choice at all. That's why I suggested it.
Nurture (enviromental factors) are not factors that you can choose.

I concur with my experience being a combination of different factors that sort of "pushed" me toward being bi.

I recognize a lot of my issue growing up as a young child was just wanting a stable male role model who would love and accept me unconditionally, but the feelings I have toward men have stayed with me and they are a part of me.

The tendency may have been biologically latent, events and environment in my life sort of brought it to my awareness much sooner. I probably would have found out the same thing much later as an adult

I used to actually cry out to God, "Why did you make me this way?" The responses I got varied - silence, "I'm sorry", "I had to so you would understand".

Some people might think that conversation with God was just the brain's way of tricking a suicidal teen into staying alive but I do now understand just what it means to be in the minority, on the outside looking in at what other people call "normal".

I love men and I love women, and I wouldn't give that up - I'm sorry that some people can't keep it in their pants and I'm sorry that the rest of society doesn't seem to understand what love is really about.

[swmnkdinthervr]

The real answer is YES, it can be choice or not!

I know several bi men/women that really seem to have no choice over their draw to same sex liaisons. That attraction is real and they have been aware of it from a young age. There are also many that it's not even a matter of being attracted to the opposite sex but more a gender identity issue, they are in reality more comfortable as the opposite sex. Last but not the least are those born with mixed chromosomes and non specific genitalia. As long as there is at least some attraction to both genders they are considered bi. To these people there is usually little choice.

We all know people (much like me) that don't see bisexuality as a gender issue at all, many of us not actually having an attraction to the opposite sex. We choose to pursue pleasure for the sake of pleasure gender notwithstanding. My wife also falls under this category. Most of us choose to pursue bisexual activities.

[void()]

No it doesn't revolve back to choice at all. That's why I suggested it.
Nurture (enviromental factors) are not factors that you can choose.

You cannot choose your genetics. Will grant that. There are other aspects to nurture beyond genetics. And there are many which one may choose. It is not completely a matter of pure biological adaptation or purpose.

Everyone is so confounded set upon one or the other. They cannot see it is combination of both. There is some choice to a degree, then no choice also exists. Neither is correct nor in error. Bisexuality simply is. That's all anyone needs to know.

Like I said, we don't ask heterosexuals, homosexuals if they are as chosen to be or so due to nature. There's no issue like this with other sexualities. What the frag gives that everyone is set to divide bisexuality? Is it too different? Who is trying to divide it on itself? What purpose does conquest of bisexuality serve?

I bet if you followed the money, it could be found out real quick. Not concerned aside from passing curiosity here. Stupidity of such nature is like a train wreck, you just have to look at it. And it goes beyond ignorance because it enacts an attack upon bisexuality, this makes it stupidity.

Sorry for your fears but control them yourself, busy controlling my own, thanks.


I love men and I love women, and I wouldn't give that up - I'm sorry that some people can't keep it in their pants and I'm sorry that the rest of society doesn't seem to understand what love is really about.

Quiet beautifully said. Many suggest love is merely a chemical cocktail. My name is not Many. Yes, there are chemicals involved. That is not the whole of it. If so we could create a 'love' drug to cause unyielding loyalty, trust, honor and respect of everyone. They would pipe it through the HVAC at supermarkets, like they do with the Campbell's food pheromones which stimulate one to purchase more food. Imagine, world peace through a chemical elixir to make everyone love one another.

Sounds like a really perverse episode of Firefly. Afraid I would have to go with Mal, misbehave. We've all seen that tampering with people to 'make them better' just does not work and causes dire tragedies. Your words are a beautiful statement hon. I believe they express a greater Truth many would rather shove aside for the easy path of hate.

[dafydd]

You cannot choose your genetics. Will grant that. There are other aspects to nurture beyond genetics. And there are many which one may choose. It is not completely a matter of pure biological adaptation or purpose.

Everyone is so confounded set upon one or the other. They cannot see it is combination of both. There is some choice to a degree, then no choice also exists. Neither is correct nor in error. Bisexuality simply is. That's all anyone needs to know.

Like I said, we don't ask heterosexuals, homosexuals if they are as chosen to be or so due to nature. There's no issue like this with other sexualities. What the frag gives that everyone is set to divide bisexuality? Is it too different? Who is trying to divide it on itself? What purpose does conquest of bisexuality serve?

I bet if you followed the money, it could be found out real quick. Not concerned aside from passing curiosity here. Stupidity of such nature is like a train wreck, you just have to look at it. And it goes beyond ignorance because it enacts an attack upon bisexuality, this makes it stupidity.

Sorry for your fears but control them yourself, busy controlling my own, thanks.

You don't even know where I stand on the matter because you've just assumed. I haven't said either way what i believe is the answer. All I was saying is to be clear on the question and not phrase it in the *language* of 'choice': because what happens is you get a lot of people (not so much on this forum, but in other situations) vehemently 'defending' themselves by saying they were 'born like this'. And how they wouldn't have chosen this because of how horrible a time they had being beaten up and shameful and all this kind of stuff. It totally does the opposite of what they mean to say in terms of strengthening the 'acceptability' of homosexuality., It plays into the homophobes' hands, who often start these kind of debates in the media. i think i said all this in further detail in another thread on exactly the same topic a few posts down the forum.

Of course this question is levelled at gays and lesbians all the time.

Im not sure what u meant about fears..a bit baffled there. I dont know what the answer is to this big question. I am what I am.

[Rhevan]

How many times does it have to be asked before we realize there will never be a consensus answer? My personal feeling is that sexuality is not a choice but choosing to act on the sexuality is a choice. There are factors in people's lives that contribute to their decision and each case is uniquely individual and not something anyone can pull out of a hat and say "EUREKA!!! Yes or EUREKA No", in the end our entire life is a choice. You can choose to live or to exist and that is also affected by factors outside of our control. I have been existing since the death of my partner but I am slowly gravitating back into living. Life goes on no matter what happens until the day we breath our last, until then I continue to stand behind the choices I make as I am the only one to decide whether those choices are right or wrong. :2cents:


Rhevan

[tenni]

I agree that to act on your bisexuality is a choice.

WHY DOES IT EVEN MATTER?

It doesn't matter.

What matters is how others choose react to our choice. "Live and Let Live" are not adhered to by those who "chose" to condemn those who do not conform to their sexual preferences.

[want2havefun]

The human mind is capable of far more than the majority believe.
It would seem that folks either comprehend that on some level or do not.
That being said, this subject has been thoroughly beaten to death.

[ckman314]

Sorry I repeated a question without researching first didn't intend on beating a dead horse thank you for answering even though bringing it up again bothers people


I am blown away too see that other bi men believe its a choice I have argued this with people who are not gay or bi a million times and I always felt that no one in the gay or bi community would think it was a choice not ever having this discussion with another gay or bi person I thought that it was something only str8 people believed.


SHOCKED really for me I've always known although I was molested by my 16 year old neighbor who made me give him a blow job at 8 years old, but while I was doing it I enjoyed it and always knew it was something that even though I was forced into without ever thinking about it before that I really enjoyed doing it and it felt natural. So I just always excepted that I was born with this desire in me I have excepted it, my wife is amazing and understanding too my sexual orientation which makes life a whole lot easier and less stressful too live.


Too me it sound like you would be in denial of your sexual orientation too say its a choice, so you just blow guys because you enjoy it then well wouldn't there have to be something with your make up that makes you enjoy it over people who don't enjoy it?

[void()]

A young boy and his father walk into a field one night. The father smiling looks to the sky. Untold trillions of microscopic stage lights catch his eyes and cause them to glimmer when he turns to his son.

"Daddy, one of my friends in school says I have to not like Billy. He's different, daddy. My friend says he eats peas with honey. That's gross, right?"

The father chuckles and points to the sky. "Tell me what do see, son?"

So, the little boy looks up into the stars. "Daddy, it's a bunch of pretty lights."

"Look harder, Tommy. You need to see it all."

"But daddy I can't."

"Why not?"

"How many are there daddy?"

The father takes his son hand, bracing him. "Son, I don't know but as far as anybody can guess the stars are infinite. That means you can keep counting them, your son, and his and you'll all never reach the last star."

"Too many to see, daddy. They are all different too."

"Yes son, stars are like people." The father says.

Tommy stands there looking until it finally crosses the threshold of understanding. "All of them are pretty, daddy."

"Just like people, Tommy, just like people ..."

[dafydd]

The human mind is capable of far more than the majority believe.
It would seem that folks either comprehend that on some level or do not.
That being said, this subject has been thoroughly beaten to death.

yes it has been discussed a lot recently. and possibly we need a break. But its amazing to see a group of people exploring so honestly what makes them who they are. Its a question that defines our very presence on this site, even the existence of the site itself. i guess they'll always be some sort of thread like this, and too right. :) despite the arguments, its what makes this site great.

d

[pepperjack]

A young boy and his father walk into a field one night. The father smiling looks to the sky. Untold trillions of microscopic stage lights catch his eyes and cause them to glimmer when he turns to his son.

"Daddy, one of my friends in school says I have to not like Billy. He's different, daddy. My friend says he eats peas with honey. That's gross, right?"

The father chuckles and points to the sky. "Tell me what do see, son?"

So, the little boy looks up into the stars. "Daddy, it's a bunch of pretty lights."

"Look harder, Tommy. You need to see it all."

"But daddy I can't."

"Why not?"

"How many are there daddy?"

The father takes his son hand, bracing him. "Son, I don't know but as far as anybody can guess the stars are infinite. That means you can keep counting them, your son, and his and you'll all never reach the last star."

"Too many to see, daddy. They are all different too."

"Yes son, stars are like people." The father says.

Tommy stands there looking until it finally crosses the threshold of understanding. "All of them are pretty, daddy."

"Just like people, Tommy, just like people ..."

Kind of poignant Void, but not realistic. This kind of Pollyanna teaching could cause the son to become too naive, trusting and hence a victim. Quasimodo was ugly, deformed, despised, rejected,yet he was a human being of great courage, tenderness, compassion. My favorite portrayal of him was by Charles Laughton in the 50's who was a known homosexual in Hollywood at the time; I can't help but feel he sublimated his emotional torment over his sexual orientation into that character. The Bible teaches, " Man looks on the outward appearance but The Lord looks on the heart." Sent off an e-mail today to a longtime friend who's looking forward to the day he can take his new great-grandson fishing. I encouraged him, knowing he's going to teach & mold him well.:):)

[Long Duck Dong]

Sorry I repeated a question without researching first didn't intend on beating a dead horse thank you for answering even though bringing it up again bothers people


I am blown away too see that other bi men believe its a choice I have argued this with people who are not gay or bi a million times and I always felt that no one in the gay or bi community would think it was a choice not ever having this discussion with another gay or bi person I thought that it was something only str8 people believed.


SHOCKED really for me I've always known although I was molested by my 16 year old neighbor who made me give him a blow job at 8 years old, but while I was doing it I enjoyed it and always knew it was something that even though I was forced into without ever thinking about it before that I really enjoyed doing it and it felt natural. So I just always excepted that I was born with this desire in me I have excepted it, my wife is amazing and understanding too my sexual orientation which makes life a whole lot easier and less stressful too live.


Too me it sound like you would be in denial of your sexual orientation too say its a choice, so you just blow guys because you enjoy it then well wouldn't there have to be something with your make up that makes you enjoy it over people who don't enjoy it?

I have a question for you.... if you had not blown a guy, would you have been heterosexual ??? or would you have developed a bisexual nature later down the track, many years later ?.

you can only be in denial of something you are aware of, and if you are not aware of your sexuality nature, how can you deny it ?

most people lead a heterosexual lifestyle, yet can be latent bisexual, they choose never to *test * their sexuality.... yet we have members in the site that have talked about same sex experiences that have revealed a latent bisexual nature.......

the issue with latent bisexual tendencies, is that many people are not aware they have them, they live a heterosexual lifestyle, they are not in denial of being bisexual, as they have no idea that they are bisexual..... so the argument that the person can choose to embrace or deny their bisexual attractions, fails in the respect that they do not have them, as they are latent desires and the person is not aware of them.......as a few members have admitted in the site.....

yet we encourage people to act on their KNOWN attraction and desires to define if they are heterosexual, bi, gay, lesbian...... and that is where a lot of the anti choice argument rests.... on the stance that people that KNOW about their sexual attractions, do not have a choice...... yet that ignores the fact that sexuality is fluid and some people will shift to or from a hetero / lgbt sexuality to a different sexuality....and choose to accept their new sexuality, but many others will not accept their sexuality change

a example of that, is the people that are prayed over... and change from a gay lifestyle to a hetero one..... I still tend to question if the person is actually a latent bisexual.... but others will state that the person is denying their sexuality.... however that also denies a sexuality shift in people as well

unlike the people that will argue that LGBT sexuality is a choice for all..... my stance is that hetero / lgbt sexuality is fluid and in some people, a choice can trigger a sexuality change, as seen in posts in the forum.....

the advantage of my stance, is it allows me to embrace and accept the statements of members that would talk about not having any bisexual desires or attractions until they choose to suck a cock during a shared person encounter and trigger latent bisexual desires.....
or the member that has talked about realising that they are not bisexual but heterosexual and choose to be heterosexual ......

what amuses me about those two members, is many embraced one of them... but told the other, they were wrong about their sexuality and they were in denial of who they are.......

can sexuality be a choice ? yes, it can for some people..... they can choose to define themselves differently or act in a manner that can change their sexuality, when they choose to experiment........ but when we choose not to accept that ability in people, its us that is in denial, not the other people.....

[void()]

Kind of poignant Void, but not realistic. This kind of Pollyanna teaching could cause the son to become too naive, trusting and hence a victim. Quasimodo was ugly, deformed, despised, rejected,yet he was a human being of great courage, tenderness, compassion. My favorite portrayal of him was by Charles Laughton in the 50's who was a known homosexual in Hollywood at the time; I can't help but feel he sublimated his emotional torment over his sexual orientation into that character. The Bible teaches, " Man looks on the outward appearance but The Lord looks on the heart." Sent off an e-mail today to a longtime friend who's looking forward to the day he can take his new great-grandson fishing. I encouraged him, knowing he's going to teach & mold him well.:):)

ROFLMAO "And then?" ROFLMAOA&A

"not realistic"

What is not realistic in people all being different?

What is not realistic in stars all being different?

What is not realistic in seeing the beauty of all the differences and acknowledging it in all its infinite splendor?

"This kind of Pollyanna teaching could cause ..."

It is fully ludicrous to not expect splendor to have thorns. Should also be obvious in his love the father would mention said thorns. If that is Pollyanna by your purview so mote it.

Do appreciate your criticism & commentary. And it is still alright if we can agree to disagree upon some perspectives. Next time I shall fully articulate the expansive expletives to include one involving a dead dog, to placate masses lulled into mental numbness via standard fare.

Such agitation over humble 'dust in the wind', tsk. *grin*

"And then?"

ROFLMFAO!!!! & Swinging on a star

[pepperjack]

ROFLMAO "And then?" ROFLMAOA&A

"not realistic"

What is not realistic in people all being different?

What is not realistic in stars all being different?

What is not realistic in seeing the beauty of all the differences and acknowledging it in all its infinite splendor?

"This kind of Pollyanna teaching could cause ..."

It is fully ludicrous to not expect splendor to have thorns. Should also be obvious in his love the father would mention said thorns. If that is Pollyanna by your purview so mote it.

Do appreciate your criticism & commentary. And it is still alright if we can agree to disagree upon some perspectives. Next time I shall fully articulate the expansive expletives to include one involving a dead dog, to placate masses lulled into mental numbness via standard fare.

Such agitation over humble 'dust in the wind', tsk. *grin*

"And then?"

ROFLMFAO!!!! & Swinging on a star

Yes, the analogy that all people are beautiful as compared to the stars from our perspective,is not realistic. Would that same boy view a pedophile assaulting him, possibly about to murder him, as a sparkling star in the night sky? Think not! Also, the father in your scenario did not mention any thorns, only that all people are beautiful, as the stars, hence the Pollyanna connection.:cool:

[Diva667]

What I don't like about the argument that our sexuality is a choice is that it gives some fundamental (Focus on the Family) types a hook into labeling us all sinners. It is a short step from there into making alternate sexuality a crime. Because if it's a choice then , according to them , you shouldn't choose to be "that way." According to most of them, and some parents of glbt, you should be cured of your "aberrant sexual desires".

if Sexuality is a choice, then there would be no need for any sort of protections for sexual orientation. It would indeed be a "special right".

It could be labeled , like any other chosen behavior (murder, rape , theft), a crime and something that you could choose to discriminate for / against. You could be denied housing, employment or health care, based on your sexual orientation.

[void()]

Yes, the analogy that all people are beautiful as compared to the stars from our perspective,is not realistic. Would that same boy view a pedophile assaulting him, possibly about to murder him, as a sparkling star in the night sky? Think not! Also, the father in your scenario did not mention any thorns, only that all people are beautiful, as the stars, hence the Pollyanna connection.:cool:

Although your view is cynical, jaded and a bit unfair, it is also well thought and deserving of merit. So too is having a view of needing more wonder and naivety as you put it. Balance must be. I am still laughing at you anyway, but not over this, simply just because. :)

[pepperjack]

Although your view is cynical, jaded and a bit unfair, it is also well thought and deserving of merit. So too is having a view of needing more wonder and naivety as you put it. Balance must be. I am still laughing at you anyway, but not over this, simply just because. :)

Don't think my view is cynical, jaded or unfair at all, but realistic. You're a 40 year old man; you should know the way of the world by now.:shades:

[Darkside2009]

What I don't like about the argument that our sexuality is a choice is that it gives some fundamental (Focus on the Family) types a hook into labeling us all sinners. It is a short step from there into making alternate sexuality a crime. Because if it's a choice then , according to them , you shouldn't choose to be "that way." According to most of them, and some parents of glbt, you should be cured of your "aberrant sexual desires".

if Sexuality is a choice, then there would be no need for any sort of protections for sexual orientation. It would indeed be a "special right".

It could be labeled , like any other chosen behavior (murder, rape , theft), a crime and something that you could choose to discriminate for / against. You could be denied housing, employment or health care, based on your sexual orientation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to the Bible we are already sinners in that we have fallen short of the standard set by God. So where is the short step you speak of? The exercise of sexuality is a crime, in our societies, only if it is committed with force against a non-consenual partner. Or in the case of paedophiles against those under the age of consent.

As to denying housing, employment or health care on the basis of sexuality, a moments reflection will already confirm that we already provide housing, employment and health care to murderers, rapists and paedophiles.

[elian]

What I don't like about the argument that our sexuality is a choice is that it gives some fundamental (Focus on the Family) types a hook into labeling us all sinners. It is a short step from there into making alternate sexuality a crime. Because if it's a choice then , according to them , you shouldn't choose to be "that way." According to most of them, and some parents of glbt, you should be cured of your "aberrant sexual desires".

if Sexuality is a choice, then there would be no need for any sort of protections for sexual orientation. It would indeed be a "special right".

It could be labeled , like any other chosen behavior (murder, rape , theft), a crime and something that you could choose to discriminate for / against. You could be denied housing, employment or health care, based on your sexual orientation.

Well, I do believe there are people who just don't have the experience to tell WHAT their feelings are yet. I also believe there are a class of people who do feel romantically, emotionally and physically inclined toward individuals of the same sex in a way that others in the group do not. The "choice" is not in who you love but one of abstinence or not in order to suit norms. Straight people can also decide not to have sex, but it denies a basic part of human existence.

After trying so much, hating myself so much and wanting to commit suicide growing up, you wouldn't think that I would be having this argument - if there was a way to choose and still be happy and whole I would have taken it by now..I had to learn to be happy, whole, and different the hard way.

In tough economic times marriages, even among straight people aren't doing so well. "Pro family" folks will continue to feel as if they are under attack simply because their way of understanding and appreciating life is slipping away on its own. Rather than "choice", the real issue is whether all people in the society understand what love and compassion are about.. I'm bi and I'm "pro family" too - I just happen to think that the character of the parents matters more in raising a child then the genitals between the parents' legs..and I KNOW there are LGBT people of high moral character.

[elian]

Don't think my view is cynical, jaded or unfair at all, but realistic. You're a 40 year old man; you should know the way of the world by now.:shades:

Aww Pepper, give the guy a break - human beings LOVE to tell stories, it's how we passed our history down for quite a long time (well, from what I've heard anyway).

[Darkside2009]

Sorry I repeated a question without researching first didn't intend on beating a dead horse thank you for answering even though bringing it up again bothers people


I am blown away too see that other bi men believe its a choice I have argued this with people who are not gay or bi a million times and I always felt that no one in the gay or bi community would think it was a choice not ever having this discussion with another gay or bi person I thought that it was something only str8 people believed.


SHOCKED really for me I've always known although I was molested by my 16 year old neighbor who made me give him a blow job at 8 years old, but while I was doing it I enjoyed it and always knew it was something that even though I was forced into without ever thinking about it before that I really enjoyed doing it and it felt natural. So I just always excepted that I was born with this desire in me I have excepted it, my wife is amazing and understanding too my sexual orientation which makes life a whole lot easier and less stressful too live.


Too me it sound like you would be in denial of your sexual orientation too say its a choice, so you just blow guys because you enjoy it then well wouldn't there have to be something with your make up that makes you enjoy it over people who don't enjoy it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you hadn't tasted chocolate before in your life, would you have any desire for chocolate? Once you have tasted it, you can either like the taste and continue eating it, or dislike the taste and never eat it again. However you decide, chocolate could never be described as a natural function within us.

Substitute smoking for chocolate, if you try that first cigarette and like it, you may well continue smoking for the pleasure it affords you. Or you may try it and decide you do not like it, and never smoke again. Either way, smoking is not a natural function within us from birth.

In both examples, it is curiosity that has led us to wonder what it might be like, and for some to proceed to making a choice to finding out for themselves.

In your case, although you were forced to fellate your neighbour as a boy, and found it pleasurable, many others in similar circumstances have been left traumatised by it.

Yet paedophiles have used the excuse many times that their victims wanted it. Many paedophiles have disclosed that they themselves had been victims of other paedophiles when they were young. So for some at least it seems to trigger off a self-perpetuating lifestyle, with an addiction that is difficult, if not impossible to break.

If instead of a sixteen year old boy forcing you to fellate him, it had been a sixteen year old girl forcing you to perform cunnilingus on her, would you still be bisexual, or just a precocious heterosexual?

Human beings are innately curious, and it is this quality inherent within us, that has led to us travelling down the myriad paths in our lives, searching for the next sensation.

This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with it.

[pepperjack]

Aww Pepper, give the guy a break - human beings LOVE to tell stories, it's how we passed our history down for quite a long time (well, from what I've heard anyway).

I love a good story as much as the next guy. Have been an avid reader ever since I learned to read and also have enjoyed movies since I was very young. After reading or hearing a story or watching a movie, isn't it kind of a natural reaction to formulate opinions about the story? Siskel&Ebert made lucrative careers with their critiques.

[pepperjack]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you hadn't tasted chocolate before in your life, would you have any desire for chocolate? Once you have tasted it, you can either like the taste and continue eating it, or dislike the taste and never eat it again. However you decide, chocolate could never be described as a natural function within us.

Substitute smoking for chocolate, if you try that first cigarette and like it, you may well continue smoking for the pleasure it affords you. Or you may try it and decide you do not like it, and never smoke again. Either way, smoking is not a natural function within us from birth.

In both examples, it is curiosity that has led us to wonder what it might be like, and for some to proceed to making a choice to finding out for themselves.

In your case, although you were forced to fellate your neighbour as a boy, and found it pleasurable, many others in similar circumstances have been left traumatised by it.

Yet paedophiles have used the excuse many times that their victims wanted it. Many paedophiles have disclosed that they themselves had been victims of other paedophiles when they were young. So for some at least it seems to trigger off a self-perpetuating lifestyle, with an addiction that is difficult, if not impossible to break.

If instead of a sixteen year old boy forcing you to fellate him, it had been a sixteen year old girl forcing you to perform cunnilingus on her, would you still be bisexual, or just a precocious heterosexual?

Human beings are innately curious, and it is this quality inherent within us, that has led to us travelling down the myriad paths in our lives, searching for the next sensation.

This is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with it.
Right on & very well expressed once again Dark. Curiosity was the driving force which compelled me to experiment with same sex encounters.

[Gearbox]

@LDD- aren't you talking about choosing to explore sexuality, rather than choosing your sexuality?
Yes we could choose to try sucking a cock, but we can't choose to like it.
That bothered me the first time I had m-m sex as an adult. I really had no certainty that I'd like it, even though I fantasised about it. It was all down to putting a cock in my mouth and seeing how I felt about it.
Luckily I felt 'natural' about it, and I was very pleased about that.:)
I tried bottoming once later on. Believe me I wanted to like it very much. But I didn't! It didn't feel 'natural' to me.:(

What 'feels natural' to us IMO is not up for reasoning. We can't choose that!:(
We can't chose to enter a hetero, homo or bi phase either. We just go with the tide of sexuality.
We have our sexual nature and we call it sexuality, but we are not it's master and it doesn't care what we call it or how we try to dictate to it.:)

Exploring is good though! Always chose that!:tongue:

[void()]

Don't think my view is cynical, jaded or unfair at all, but realistic. You're a 40 year old man; you should know the way of the world by now.:shades:

Indeed. Why else seek to change it?

[pepperjack]

Indeed. Why else seek to change it?

Would you consider changing your opinion that Aldous Huxley, a genuinely talented writer and true intellectual, did not transition well? Anyone aspiring to become a writer needs to develop some thick skin, learn how to process criticism objectively and get used to lots and lots of rejection!

[tenni]

"We can't chose to enter a hetero, homo or bi phase either. We just go with the tide of sexuality." post 45

I agree with Diva (post 36?) when she writes about certain groups in society who would try to use the idea that bisexuals chose their sexuality leading to arguments that there is an immorality to that choice according to their religious book. Even though most of us live in secular societies and they should not have the right to use their religious books to condemn through legal means if sexuality is a choice it may lead that way.

In Gearbox's quote above reminds me a possible parallel argument about bisexuality not being a choice it may be similar to bipolar condition. The ebb and flow aspect of bisexuality differs from heteros and gay people. We may enter phases that last decades of one sexual preference over another. We may have shorter cycles (if we have cycles like bipolar people do ) The man who discovers his same sex attraction in his 40's after never having any same sex attraction until then. Is he a "latent" bisexual or is this a chemical change in his body more closely to the swings in a bipolar condition? If it is found to be a chemical change, will it be encouraged to find a "cure" or remediation from this deviation from heterosexuality?

Both answers about choice or natural have a danger if society believes that sexuality should be one ..the main one...heterosexuality versus acceptance of differences as normal. This may give more urgence to have society accept the sexual variations as normal rather than a moral question.

[æonpax]

Sorry I repeated a question without researching first didn't intend on beating a dead horse thank you for answering even though bringing it up again bothers people

I am blown away too see that other bi men believe its a choice I have argued this with people who are not gay or bi a million times and I always felt that no one in the gay or bi community would think it was a choice not ever having this discussion with another gay or bi person I thought that it was something only str8 people believed.

SHOCKED really for me I've always known although I was molested by my 16 year old neighbor who made me give him a blow job at 8 years old, but while I was doing it I enjoyed it and always knew it was something that even though I was forced into without ever thinking about it before that I really enjoyed doing it and it felt natural. So I just always excepted that I was born with this desire in me I have excepted it, my wife is amazing and understanding too my sexual orientation which makes life a whole lot easier and less stressful too live.

Too me it sound like you would be in denial of your sexual orientation too say its a choice, so you just blow guys because you enjoy it then well wouldn't there have to be something with your make up that makes you enjoy it over people who don't enjoy it?


Personally, I believe that sexual orientation is an unknown quantity and cannot be decisively determined either scientifically, psychologically or sociologically. That would be in line with the best academic information available. If these discussions were merely difference of opinion, that’s one thing. However, some have elevated this topic, far beyond scholarly opinion, to a religious belief. Nonetheless, there are some good lessons to be learned in the discussion of “Choice” in regards to sexual orientation.

1) Character, intelligence and in fact all, of peoples qualities, good and bad, are not determined by our sexual orientation. A homosexuals can act just as stupid as a heterosexuals. Sexual orientation does not affect the “human condition.”

2) Those whom believe sexual orientation is a choice, cannot provide scientific or empirical proof. I’ve asked for years and have received nothing but excuses, attacks, false logic, the minute parsing of language, etc, but no data and no facts. I keep trying though. You will note their arguments are about semantics, sidetracking the entire “Choice” discussion.

3) Those whom believe and promote the falsehood that homosexuality is a choice, are overwhelmingly politically conservative and far right religious…Evangelical christians especially, at least in the US. They have an agenda and in my opinion, that would be the complete destruction of all the rights that gays, lesbians, bisexuals and other sexualities have fought for. Ultimately, most want to make homosexuality a crime and punishable offense. A few would even want to put them to death.



3a) Most certainly, not all Christians believe sexual orientation is a choice. Check out this link; Gay by God. Proud by Choice! (http://christiangays.com/articles/gay_by_god.shtml )

3b) For more information on the religious right, their agenda of pushing “choice” into the political arena; check out these sites:
http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2005/07/why_religious_r.html
http://lists.rightwatch.org/listinfo.cgi/alert-rightwatch.org
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm
http://www.publiceye.org/ - this site is especially good. They do investigations and research into anti-gay/homosexual activities.

The cartoon below is a humorous summary which pretty much sums up the way I see online discussions with certain groups.

`


http://i.imgur.com/b3KVt.jpg

[pepperjack]

Personally, I believe that sexual orientation is an unknown quantity and cannot be decisively determined either scientifically, psychologically or sociologically. That would be in line with the best academic information available. If these discussions were merely difference of opinion, that’s one thing. However, some have elevated this topic, far beyond scholarly opinion, to a religious belief. Nonetheless, there are some good lessons to be learned in the discussion of “Choice” in regards to sexual orientation.

1) Character, intelligence and in fact all, of peoples qualities, good and bad, are not determined by our sexual orientation. A homosexuals can act just as stupid as a heterosexuals. Sexual orientation does not affect the “human condition.”

2) Those whom believe sexual orientation is a choice, cannot provide scientific or empirical proof. I’ve asked for years and have received nothing but excuses, attacks, false logic, the minute parsing of language, etc, but no data and no facts. I keep trying though. You will note their arguments are about semantics, sidetracking the entire “Choice” discussion.

3) Those whom believe and promote the falsehood that homosexuality is a choice, are overwhelmingly politically conservative and far right religious…Evangelical christians especially, at least in the US. They have an agenda and in my opinion, that would be the complete destruction of all the rights that gays, lesbians, bisexuals and other sexualities have fought for. Ultimately, most want to make homosexuality a crime and punishable offense. A few would even want to put them to death.



3a) Most certainly, not all Christians believe sexual orientation is a choice. Check out this link; Gay by God. Proud by Choice! (http://christiangays.com/articles/gay_by_god.shtml )

3b) For more information on the religious right, their agenda of pushing “choice” into the political arena; check out these sites:
http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2005/07/why_religious_r.html
http://lists.rightwatch.org/listinfo.cgi/alert-rightwatch.org
http://www.rightwingwatch.org/
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reconstr.htm
http://www.publiceye.org/ - this site is especially good. They do investigations and research into anti-gay/homosexual activities.

The cartoon below is a humorous summary which pretty much sums up the way I see online discussions with certain groups.

`


http://i.imgur.com/b3KVt.jpg

Entertaining but I see Sharia Law as impervious to reason.

[want2havefun]

Its clear to me that some people see any choice factor as somehow giving in to the wacko religious right view and/or a betrayal of glbt political agendas, and are therefore they unable to acknowledge even honest personal testimony from others on their own sexuality. Such often will suggest or even declare the sexuality of others to be invalid.

To me the question isnt a gay vs str8, or gay vs religion question but a question regarding the nature of humanity. Its also clear to me that many are able to see anything beyond their own experience. The issues of some people being closeted etc further complicates our understanding.

To suggest that a human being/mind cannot possibly ever cultivate sexuality is to deny reality. Its just that simple to me.
One should not need further 'proof' of that when there are living breathing human beings on earth that have done just that. The problem is that such individuals are forced to accept a label others determine...if they wish to be accepted.
It would seem this question is mostly about tolerance and understanding.

[pepperjack]

Its clear to me that some people see any choice factor as somehow giving in to the wacko religious right view and/or a betrayal of glbt political agendas, and are therefore they unable to acknowledge even honest personal testimony from others on their own sexuality. Such often will suggest or even declare the sexuality of others to be invalid.

To me the question isnt a gay vs str8, or gay vs religion question but a question regarding the nature of humanity. Its also clear to me that many are able to see anything beyond their own experience. The issues of some people being closeted etc further complicates our understanding.

To suggest that a human being/mind cannot possibly ever cultivate sexuality is to deny reality. Its just that simple to me.
One should not need further 'proof' of that when there are living breathing human beings on earth that have done just that. The problem is that such individuals are forced to accept a label others determine...if they wish to be accepted.
It would seem this question is mostly about tolerance and understanding.

Speaking of wacko, what is this rambling, fragmented, incoherent post all about anyway? Was your final comment meant to be some sort of profound, revelatory conclusion?

[Diva667]

To an ambidextrous person being left-handed is a choice. To someone who is left handed it is not a choice.

Our "friends" in the fundamentalist movement once persecuted children for being left handed as it was not "godly" to be left handed.

They persecuted Galileo for his belief in science, and forced him to recant.

The fact is for some it may be a choice, but for most it is not. Not that it should matter. We should all be equal before the law, whatever that law is.

If a hetero couple can kiss, or engage in PDA, in public then a homo couple should be able to engage in the same act without prejudice.

If a hetero couple can enjoy the benefits of marriage , then a homo couple should be allowed the same right.

There are many women who married gay men with the belief that love would make him straight, alas that belief was proven to be wrong. The same story could be told of many lesbians who married with the belief that they would learn to love a man, again that did not happen.

It is my belief that if they could have stayed in those relationships they would have. But there wasn't any way for them to exist in that relationship.

The belief that we can change our sexual orientation and gender identity has led to many broken hearts and broken relationships.

We need to stop this belief, in my opinion. That we need to change for the sake of straight society(or gay society for that matter) is mistaken and will only lead to broken hearts. You can not change yourself to suit whatever ideals you may hold, ask the many fundementalist preachers caught with rent boys.

The position of strength, therefore, is to accept who you are and build from a position of love and acceptance rather than hate and fear.

“Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armour yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”
― George R.R. Martin, A Game of Thrones

[mikey3000]

If I have the right to claim any sexual orientation that seems right for me, whether I choose to act on it or not, (which has been discussed here time and time again), then why don't I have the same right to claim WHY i have those feelings? How can one be valid and not the other?

[pepperjack]

If I have the right to claim any sexual orientation that seems right for me, whether I choose to act on it or not, (which has been discussed here time and time again), then why don't I have the same right to claim WHY i have those feelings? How can one be valid and not the other?

Whoever said you don't have the right to express the origin of your feelings, especially on this site of all places?

[Long Duck Dong]

@LDD- aren't you talking about choosing to explore sexuality, rather than choosing your sexuality?
Yes we could choose to try sucking a cock, but we can't choose to like it.
That bothered me the first time I had m-m sex as an adult. I really had no certainty that I'd like it, even though I fantasised about it. It was all down to putting a cock in my mouth and seeing how I felt about it.
Luckily I felt 'natural' about it, and I was very pleased about that.:)
I tried bottoming once later on. Believe me I wanted to like it very much. But I didn't! It didn't feel 'natural' to me.:(

What 'feels natural' to us IMO is not up for reasoning. We can't choose that!:(
We can't chose to enter a hetero, homo or bi phase either. We just go with the tide of sexuality.
We have our sexual nature and we call it sexuality, but we are not it's master and it doesn't care what we call it or how we try to dictate to it.:)

Exploring is good though! Always chose that!:tongue:

no, its the understanding of choice, that is the key word....... ( get ready for a long winded and confused reply :tong::tong::tong: )

it appears that people are relating to choice as I can turn a switch and change myself over night....... and thats not what I am saying....

what I am saying by way of choice, is that people that have a very fluid sexuality that can be influenced by personal choice, environment, social interaction etc.... can choose to influence the changes in themselves by changing the situations in which they are in.......

its a bit like the prison scenario where a person that has limited heterosexual interaction with people and limited sexual stimuli, can * choose * to act in a manner that is out of character for them... IE homosexual interaction......

now the interesting aspect of that, is that some people will argue that they are bisexual cos only bisexuals would do that... and others would argue that they are men that have sex with men, and others still, would argue that any hole will do, and more would argue that its latent homosexual tendancies.....

who can say what is the correct answer, as its different for each person......

so the key word of choice, is where most people get stuck on... and their own understanding of their own sexuality, which they apply to others......

hence I refer to the fact that we can not prove or disprove choice of sexuality as a ability of some people....... it has never been proven that sexuality is not a choice..... hence people that make the statement that sexuality is not a choice, can not prove their own argument..... only express their own valid statement about their own sexuality

I am the type of person that starts by trying to disprove my own opinion, first.... and when I can not disprove it... I wait for others to disprove it, since I have the understanding that I may have missed something.......

in the argument with sexuality being a choice... I can use the narrow argument that sexuality is a choice, by way of sexuality is sexual expression, not whom we are attracted to, which is a aspect of sexuality......

that uses the narrow argument that we do not always have sex with people we are attracted to, but we can have sex with people we are not attracted to.... IE, the person that is not interesting or attractive but we are horny, so we fuck them ........

so using a narrowly defined argument of we can choose who we fuck, and sexuality is defined by sexual expression, that would indicate that we can choose our sexuality by way of sexual partner........ but that would then create the paradox of people can not be sexuality defined unless they are sexually active..... and the other issue with it... is it leaves too many different aspects in people, unexplained......

I can use choice of sexuality from the point of view that I can be a man that has sex with other men....( that issue has arisen in this forum ) but as we know from other threads, members will argue that they are bisexuals in denial as only men that are sexually attracted to other men, will have sex with other men..... yet there is numerous person testimonies and accounts on the net about people that are MSWM... and why they do have sex with other men.......the refusal to accept that they can be anything beyond what we accept, is a clear example of the type of thinking of some people.....

so I am forced to say that sexuality can be a choice for some people... as I can not disprove it myself and no other person has either,

I accept what people say about themselves and their sexuality, as truth....I just ask that that they do not tell me that I have no choice in my sexuality as by a form of defination, I have the ability to change my asexual nature ( lack of sex drive and current absence of sexual activity by medical means and having sexual partners ) and that is a choice I have......

thats a technical argument tho... as asexuality can be a sexuality, not a attraction, as asexuals can be gay, bi, lesbian, hetero as defined by attraction.....

[Darkside2009]

If I have the right to claim any sexual orientation that seems right for me, whether I choose to act on it or not, (which has been discussed here time and time again), then why don't I have the same right to claim WHY i have those feelings? How can one be valid and not the other?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are those who will tell you there is no proof either way that our sexuality is by way of Nature or Nurture. In the next breath they will claim if you are of the opinion it is a choice that this is a falsehood.

If there is no proof either way I would have thought there is at least a fifty-fifty chance you will be right in your opinion.

A scientific theory is just an opinion that scientists have not been able to prove, otherwise it would be a scientific fact. It is still none-the-less an opinion, as valid as those of anyone else.

Mention is also made of Agendas, but these do not occur on just one side, some have their own reasons for wanting you to be wrong and will use any silly attempts at derision to prove you wrong in your opinion.

Yes, even if they claimed there was no proof you were wrong in the first place. :rolleyes:

[dafydd]

LOOK folks. Er.....aren't we all on the SAME side?

Those who believe its genetic stand firm in their support of bisexuality as being equal to heterosexuality.
They are advocates for the bi community.

Those who believe in some form of 'choice' in the matter, also see same-sex desire as equal to heterosexuality and/or a valid alternative (if they didn't they wouldn't be walking that path so happily)
They are also advocates of the bi community.

Either way is there anyone here who is actually arguing that bisexuality is *wrong*? Isn't it better to discuss this argument in the context of how you'd respond to homophobes and bigots?

Do we feel the burden of inequality so heavily, that it doesn't feel right or normal to analyse sexuality without engaging in these attack/defend arguments? Or is it the awkward silence of the homophobes and biphobes that we are trying to fill. Now, what not content with all agreeing on bisexuality, we now create two factions of bisexuals, each arguing over their rightful claims to be the truest bisexual. ...er...ever been down to old Animal Farm..?. .....it doesn't end well.

Let's not be 'one voice in unison', debate and discuss, but you don't have to fight for yours rights or who you are here, surely not.

[BiCplAz]

I had my first gay/bi experience when I was 13, my first hetro at 14 loved them both. I have spent my life being bisexual. Finally found a lady who agreed with me and licked pussies and sucked cocks as much as I did. I have the same affection for pussies, cocks tits and balls and I consider myself lucky. This is no fad, been doing it all my life, and I'm 70. Enjoy yourselves and quit putting so much pressure on your feelings just enjoy them.

[pepperjack]

Although your view is cynical, jaded and a bit unfair, it is also well thought and deserving of merit. So too is having a view of needing more wonder and naivety as you put it. Balance must be. I am still laughing at you anyway, but not over this, simply just because. :)

F U shallow wannabe! I'm willing to bet my life savings you've never had anything published. I have.:impleased:smilies15

[Long Duck Dong]

F U shallow wannabe! I'm willing to bet my life savings you've never had anything published. I have.:impleased:smilies15

dirty letters in penthouse do not count :tong::tong::tong: lol

[pepperjack]

dirty letters in penthouse do not count :tong::tong::tong: lol

Interesting & amusing coincidence:bigrin: I first began to question my sexuality after reading a PenthouseForum letter about a married man who was secretly bi.:cool:

[mikey3000]

Whoever said you don't have the right to express the origin of your feelings, especially on this site of all places?
A few have insinuated that immaturity or confusion come into play. I just thought that was a cheap shot. But I see that they are surprisingly silent when you use their logic against them. That suits me just fine.

[pepperjack]

A few have insinuated that immaturity or confusion come into play. I just thought that was a cheap shot. But I see that they are surprisingly silent when you use their logic against them. That suits me just fine.

I call that "fighting fire with fire," a strategy which has worked well for me.

[ohmymy69]

Neither my husband or I understand the argument!?!? We know a few men and women that willingly/openly discuss their bisexuality. Some profess to be born that way, others say it was their choice.

We both have chosen to pursue bisexual play and that choice was made after we had been in the "lifestyle" for a while so we know that choice IS possible. We of course can't speak for those that feel they have/had no choice, nor do we really care how they came to such sexual understanding.

Frankly we respect how everyone views their sexuality, we would never question your views on the subject. To do so would be an exercise in codependency!!!

[ErosUrge]

what a slippery slope this can be, but I'll throw my :2cents: in anyway...

I know of many men and some women who were straight most of their adult lives and then decided either out of circumstances such as trying play in a 3way or with another couple to experiment and in those moments decided to try sex with the same sex at the time. After having such said experience then decided they really enjoyed the experience and wanted to continue it and do.

Then there are those, some of who I've talked to, who also had never had an experience with the same sex, and decidedly became curious later in their lives as to what the experience might be like. And because of the experience, decided they liked it and continued/continue. And some of those decided it wasn't for them like a very good friend of mine after his one and only experience in his distant past.

Then there are those as myself that ever since I became sexually active always had sex with both never thinking about it being a choice. I can certainly say that I continue to choose to be bi, but I've not known how to feel any other way even when I was in denial for many years and fighting and trying to bury my desires and urges for the same sex.

I would imagine that for some it is a choice as the example I used above. I just don't think it applies with accuracy to everyone.

[void()]

F U shallow wannabe! I'm willing to bet my life savings you've never had anything published. I have.:impleased:smilies15

You can send it via PayPal to my email address. Here you go (http://www.amazon.com/Slam-Doors-Benjamin-K-Badgley/dp/0738862886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324324427&sr=8-1). My email address will be posted to you as a private message here. Be looking forward to some extra Christmas money.

I do not mind criticism. If you conclude I do, perhaps you misinterpret. I can admit to reading things incorrectly. Can you?

[Gearbox]

@LDD- Aren't you saying that 'choosing' is not a choice either?:bigrin:
That some peoples sexuality can adapt to circumstance, and others can't?
That would follow the lines of one sexuality, that we're all bisexual to a greater or lesser degree. Or 'potentially bisexual' to a degree.
The degree however is not a choice.:bigrin:

Truth is, we just don't know what is going on in the minds of the individuals involved concerning sexual attraction. What exactly arouses us about certain things, and not others. What dictates the 'rules' of arousal at any given time.
I'm pretty sure there are 'rules', but not what dictates them.

It maybe genetics, environment, early experiences, etc etc or all things.
We associate things with sexual arousal. We have 'types' that arouse us more than others. We can also associate inanimate objects too.
But do we consciously choose those associations?

If so, I'd LOVE to associate twinks and my slippers to a state of high sexual arousal.:bigrin:
How do I do that?

[Long Duck Dong]

@LDD- Aren't you saying that 'choosing' is not a choice either?:bigrin:
That some peoples sexuality can adapt to circumstance, and others can't?
That would follow the lines of one sexuality, that we're all bisexual to a greater or lesser degree. Or 'potentially bisexual' to a degree.
The degree however is not a choice.:bigrin:

Truth is, we just don't know what is going on in the minds of the individuals involved concerning sexual attraction. What exactly arouses us about certain things, and not others. What dictates the 'rules' of arousal at any given time.
I'm pretty sure there are 'rules', but not what dictates them.

It maybe genetics, environment, early experiences, etc etc or all things.
We associate things with sexual arousal. We have 'types' that arouse us more than others. We can also associate inanimate objects too.
But do we consciously choose those associations?

If so, I'd LOVE to associate twinks and my slippers to a state of high sexual arousal.:bigrin:
How do I do that?

I am saying that I am sitting on a lubed up fence post, acting as the referee in the middle of the debate :tong::tong::tong:

seriously, I believe that its a individual aspect... some can choose, some can't.... exactly who, I can not say.... cos there is 6 bill people that all have their own understanding of how their sexuality works and came about, and I am buggered if I can going to interview each one of them :tong:

however, I will go one step further and define... we can not choose who we are attracted to and fall in love with..... but we can choose our sexuality from the point of view, that you can say to me that you are bi, but you will go with any other person ( trans, intersex etc ) and that means that you are pan / omni sexual.....

a bi person can enter a hetero long term phase, and say they are now heterosexual, formerly bisexual......

both valid forms of choosing your sexuality to define yourself to yourself and others..... not your attraction or emotional / mental / sexual interest in a person......

it may be a semantic aspect of the debate, but by defination, its correct that a person can choose their sexuality....... and that is what is being debated, the ability to choose our sexuality, NOT our attraction to other genders....

[pepperjack]

You can send it via PayPal to my email address. Here you go (http://www.amazon.com/Slam-Doors-Benjamin-K-Badgley/dp/0738862886/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324324427&sr=8-1). My email address will be posted to you as a private message here. Be looking forward to some extra Christmas money.

I do not mind criticism. If you conclude I do, perhaps you misinterpret. I can admit to reading things incorrectly. Can you?

Yes I can. But you do come across as defensive to me.

[Darkside2009]

Is it a book of poetry Void? Not having one review in the ten years since it was published seems strange. Or did you pay for the publishing run yourself?

Either way, I think he has you there Pepper. Good thing your Life savings don't amount to more than $16. :bigrin:

[void()]

Is it a book of poetry Void? Not having one review in the ten years since it was published seems strange. Or did you pay for the publishing run yourself?

Either way, I think he has you there Pepper. Good thing your Life savings don't amount to more than $16. :bigrin:

No did not pay for the publishing. Although, royalty percentage is drastically low. Think it sees me get 2% per sale. They sale a copy for $20, I'm lucky to see $2. Had I been more aware of the publisher's business practices, I would have found another. Yes it is a book of poetry.

[pepperjack]

OK, both of you, major egg on my face! Nevertheless, Void's style comes across as confusing & condescending to me, maybe because it's poetic, I don't know. :bowdown: I somewhat get into poetry but especially poetic justice. I tend to be straightforward & direct & I guess unrealisticly expect the same from others. I apologize Void. As I said previously, I think you have ability & flair. Your syle just contradicts what I've learned about writing.

[pepperjack]

Is it a book of poetry Void? Not having one review in the ten years since it was published seems strange. Or did you pay for the publishing run yourself?

Either way, I think he has you there Pepper. Good thing your Life savings don't amount to more than $16. :bigrin:
Thanx for thinking of my life situation so highly, Dark.:bigrin:

[void()]

"Void's style comes across as confusing & condescending to me."


Not the first person to carry that away. Could be from me being an INTP personality type. Seems such types are always appearing to be argumentative even when not trying to be. I do try hard to tone it down but given it's naturally part of who I am, it is a difficult struggle. At times even given to being reticent out of fear of not communicating 'correctly'. That isn't right either but again as we all know life harbors no fairness.

[Darkside2009]

No did not pay for the publishing. Although, royalty percentage is drastically low. Think it sees me get 2% per sale. They sale a copy for $20, I'm lucky to see $2. Had I been more aware of the publisher's business practices, I would have found another. Yes it is a book of poetry.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Poetry has such a small market, that publishers will probably only print a small number of copies to see how it sells. They reckon it is they that take the risk, so they are entitled to the bulk of the profits.

If the run doesn't sell, they are left out of pocket. You might have been better off to pay the print run yourself and try to interest local book stores on a commission basis. However that presupposes you having the money up front to pay for the print run yourself. If you don't, then you are stuck with the best deal you can get from them.

I think you will find most publishers act on the same basis as the one you have.

Why not try short stories or articles on fishing or hunting, to magazines or newspapers that cater to that fraternity. You mentioned before you like fishing and hunting.

[pepperjack]

"Void's style comes across as confusing & condescending to me."


Not the first person to carry that away. Could be from me being an INTP personality type. Seems such types are always appearing to be argumentative even when not trying to be. I do try hard to tone it down but given it's naturally part of who I am, it is a difficult struggle. At times even given to being reticent out of fear of not communicating 'correctly'. That isn't right either but again as we all know life harbors no fairness.

I once read an article about a study which concluded that a good percentage of the most talented writers at that time shared the common denominator of being manic/depressive or,which is now referred to as being bipolar.

[wiccanking]

I don't think it's a choice when the Gods made me they made me this way I've been gay in all my past life's and I'll be gay in my next one :male::male:

[pepperjack]

I don't think it's a choice when the Gods made me they made me this way I've been gay in all my past life's and I'll be gay in my next one :male::male:

So mote it be?

[elian]

I don't think it's a choice when the Gods made me they made me this way I've been gay in all my past life's and I'll be gay in my next one :male::male:

..and I suspect that I used to be female often enough that now all I am is "confused" but that's okay - somehow I'll muddle through it. It's weird having all of this unearned privilege and power. Makes me think I ought to put some emphasis on standing up in society for people who are discriminated against because of "the way they were innately born". I guess having to question something as fundamental as who you love has a way of pointing that out.

[bityme]

A very interesting thread.

Almost everyone who has posted has indicated that in some manner "choice" is associated with their sexuality. However, I only recall seeing one person who was adamant that the source of his bisexuality was "choice." That individual referred to the "id" and suggested further study.

Oddly enough, reference to the "id" seems to run counter to the argument of "choice" as the source of sexuality. According to Freud, the id is responsible for our basic drives, "knows no judgements of value: no good and evil, no morality...Instinctual cathexes seeking discharge — that, in our view, is all there is in the id." It is regarded as "the great reservoir of libido", the instinctive drive to create — the life instincts that are crucial to pleasurable survival.

Freud also said that the id is unconscious by definition:
"It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learned from our study of the dream-work and of the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of that is of a negative character and can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething excitations... It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organization, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle."

It would seem to follow that one's expression of the instinctual needs or actions to fulfill them would depend on the strength of the underlying unconscious desire. I have met only a few individuals who, when the topic was discussed, did not admit to touching or fondling themselves in a pleasurable manner at a very young age, "the observance of the pleasure principle." Almost everyone of them also recalled at some point having been observed by a parent or older family manner and being told that their action was nasty or in some way unacceptable, requiring that they exercise control over their impulses.

I do not believe bisexuality is any more a choice than homosexuality, heterosexuality, or being transgendered is. While the level or strength of the impulse toward a particular orientation varies across the wide spectrum of humanity, it is certainly possible that some individuals may experience levels of desire in one category or another that are certainly capable of suppression without adverse effects on their relationships or their own psyche. However, it is my opinion that, under such circumstances, the individual has no control over the existence of the desire but may have control over undertaking action on the desire. In the case of bisexuality, it is quite possible that the control over whether or not to take action bears a direct relationship their placement along the Kinsey scale.

History is replete with examples of the exercise of such control, or lack of it. Many religious people easily practice celibacy, while some must utilize extreme measures such a flagellation or other self-punishment to maintain control and still other are compelled to leave their religious orders in pursuit of their desires. Many face similar choices based on economic or familial circumstances. I can understand someone who claims the ability to make a choice regarding their orientation or desire, yet I always wonder if it is control over whether or not one experiences the desire or the exercise of control over taking action on the desire.

Over the course of many years, I have had the opportunity to have many new experiences. Sometimes, I have refused to take advantage of the opportunity, most of the time I have not. When I have avoided the opportunity, it generally has been because I did not feel it was appropriate due to circumstances or some related knowledge that I had already acquired. Yet, my decision to not go forward never negated the existence of an impulse I might have had to try.

When I did elect to try something new, there was, at the very least, a desire that could be described as curiosity about the unknown or, on the other end of the spectrum, almost a compulsion to finally experience something I had been longing for. Of course, there was never any guarantee that if I tried something I would enjoy it.

The fact that I was raised in a very strict, conservative, prudish household provided me with an incentive to control the expression of sexual desires. Yet the desires were there, beginning at a young age. Sex might never have been a subject of discussion at home (except as something prohibited), but it was thought of all the time. I recall being in my early teens and being fascinated with the idea of sucking a cock. Having been trained that is was something nasty, perverted and against the law of both man and God, I avoided the temptation to broach the subject with other boys, but at the same time continuously tried to become limber enough to perform fellatio on myself.

Having been properly conditioned and instructed as to the rightness of heterosexuality and the wrongness of any other orientation, I naturally succumbed to society and familial pressure and directed my attentions only toward the opposite sex. (That conditioning and instruction, however, never negated my same-sex attractions.) I eventually married a woman and all appeared proper to the outside observer.

Fortunately, we talked freely. We told each other of all those thoughts we had been taught to suppress, all those things we wanted to try that our families and others had railed against. We gave ourselves the freedom to experience what we could with each other, then started swinging to experience more. Finally she took the step and experienced the touch of another woman and after a time helped me to have an experience with a man. Choice? Certainly it was a choice to act, but having the impulse or desire was not a choice.

Taking that step forward with my bisexuality was no different than taking the first step toward expression of my heterosexuality. It was taking action on an impulse or desire that I had experienced much earlier than the decision to act or the action itself.

I do not believe that anyone could produce a convincing argument that their sexual orientation was a creation of their conscious mind; that never having had any sexual impulse or desire, they created the idea of their own sexuality and decided on who they would be attracted to. I would be interested to hear from a supporter of the concept that sexuality is a choice about how their sexuality was something they created.

Pappy

[void()]

I once read an article about a study which concluded that a good percentage of the most talented writers at that time shared the common denominator of being manic/depressive or,which is now referred to as being bipolar.

*chuckles* As of yet have only been diagnosed as suffering garden variety clinically chronic depression. One doctor suggested a bit of neurological damage may exist. All things considered, have a medicine to knock of the edge off anxiety. Tried Prozac for six weeks, it made things worse, caused really bad hallucinations. So, I got off of it. One side effect of Prozac, it induced high blood pressure. Never had that before using the drug, do after using it.

Darkeside:

I might like hunting and fishing but this doesn't imply an enjoyment of writing about them. I did write a 90,000 word first draft of a horror novel. That wound up getting lost during a move, actually the media it was stored on was destroyed.

Besides that, my most beloved critic, the wife ... poked a really large hole in the plot. "Why does rich city guy want to move to a country orchard?" "Um ... hm." I do write other things aside from poetry. None of yet published because none of yet finished, polished for it.

[tenni]

Pappy
re post 81
I agree with your conclusion about choice but find any discussion about "id" Freudian or even Jungian theories unreliable. You have also referenced Behaviiourist theories. I can give Behaviourist theories credibility but most people who know anything about psychology have regulated Freud and Jung to the history books. Their theories have been found to be lacking credibility in contemporary rationalization to explain anything psychological. It might be wise for anyone attempting to present their beliefs realized that any reference to these two does their cause little good.

[bityme]

Pappy
re post 81
I agree with your conclusion about choice but find any discussion about "id" Freudian or even Jungian theories unreliable. You have also referenced Behaviiourist theories. I can give Behaviourist theories credibility but most people who know anything about psychology have regulated Freud and Jung to the history books. Their theories have been found to be lacking credibility in contemporary rationalization to explain anything psychological. It might be wise for anyone attempting to present their beliefs realized that any reference to these two does their cause little good.

Thanks tennni,

You are correct. I wasn't using Freud to support my case, but rather as a illustration the another post's reference to "id" in support of a "choice" argument was not well grounded.

From a psychological perspective, I tend to give more credence to the humanistic perspective. I am currently interested in the work of Phillip L. Hammack, PhD, on Life Course Development of Human Sexual Orientation. In his work, he defines sexual orientation as "the biologically based affective disposition of sexual desire which motivates behavior and assumption of identity. There are three important propositions embedded in this definition: (1) that individuals possess a biological disposition to respond affectively to members of a particular sex; (2) that this disposition is reflected in sexual desire, and (3) that a subjective understanding of one’s desire in the context of a specific cultural model of human sexuality leads to behavioral practice and identity assumption." His paradigm attempts to integrate the divergence between essentialism and constructionism and more clearly explains the distinction between sexual orientation and sexual identity.

I came across an interesting video about Choice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI1_jzPEcwU&feature=related

Pappy

[mikey3000]

Actually I'm not a fan of any school of psychology and only used the term ID for lack of a better alternative.

I find it impossible to pigeonhole people psychologically as the combinations of DNA and experiences that make up who we are are infinate. There are as many reasons for why we are as there are for who we are. Billions and billions! Though plenty of armchair psychologists do have opinions. Billions of them it seems.

:bigrin: I just say what works for me. No analysis required.

[tenni]

hmm
The various fields of psychology are different theories to explain the human condition and mind. They consistently evolve into other approaches to explain. I also am more inclined to agree with developmental approaches. The possibility of choices makes up how we may react to our environment. The basis of most beliefs are that it usually ends up as a combination of nature /nuture. Even when we make choices how we decide is influenced by both.

Its come a long way from Freud and Pavlov..:bigrin:

[bityme]

On an individual basis, classifications always seem to fall short. But when we look at society as a whole, it does serve a useful purpose in providing reasonable descriptions of various types of conduct and their underlying causes. Groupings established by generalizations of common characteristics often provide sufficient information for us to use as a starting point. Their use, however, has to be tempered by the realization that not everyone will fit easily within the same description. It's those wonderful variations that we see in people that we have to be sensitive to.

I have to agree that in an ever-chaanging society me must consider both the predispositions an individual might have as well as their response to their environment.

Pappy

[LionTamer7]

In my very inexperienced and naïve mind, sex is sex is sex. If a man is blindfolded and sticks his d*** in a hole and c**s, does it matter what that hole was or who it was from? To me, no. A man's member when stimulated enough will always blow given the inhibitions are taken away. When a straight guy is shown that the hole he was f***ing was from a woman's vagina, then I'm sure he's happy as a horse; but the same man found out that it was instead another man's ass, then what does that mean? Sure, he may be abhorred, but he still got off nonetheless.

Sex is sex is sex. So to go back to whether it's a choice or not. Scientists have proven to me that the inhibitions that one is programmed with (gay or straight) leads them to believe that sex with the opposite of their desires is disgusting beyond belief. I won't argue with that. However, for me (and what I assume to be the rest of the bi population), sex with either gender is appealing to me. So... In this sense, I feel I have more choice than my gay or straight counterparts. But it isn't a choice for what can get me off, but more of who I choose to get me off instead... That sounds weird, but I hope I'm making sense: like others have said before, the choice lies in the person of the night, not the internal workings of the genetics that we received from our parents that allow us to make those decisions. Even then, it seems to be more of an exclusive thing to bi people than other sexualities.

Again, inexperienced naïveté speaking...

[Goodone]

I am going to say it is not a choice, it is a drive that is in you and will always be there. Sure you can choose not to act on it, but it is still there.

I was violently sexually abused for four years of my life at the hands of my step father from the age of 8, when I was a teenager I did not want to be Bi, I did not want to be like him and what better reason would anyone have. The angst caused by my desires as well as the memories that I had of the abuse caused me some really big psychological problems. I worked my way through them and over the years I have learned to accept I am the way I am and that is ok, we are all different. If I could choose my sexuality I would not choose Bi, life is too difficult as a Bi and heterosexual is so much easier.

I tried to live the married life, have kids etc. Sure I was monogamous most of the time although I did have some slip ups with guys but they were rare. Having said that, the desire for guys was there the whole time and it was strong, so strong I used to often crank myself silly and I never fantacised about female when I did. Now I am out of long term relationships, playing with a female but also a guy, both know about the other and now I think I have found a situation that suits me better, perhaps it might change later, who knows.