High Infidelity

[æonpax]

`
From time to time, I will engage in some discussion with my gay and bi friends about the concept of fidelity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fidelity). A few of them, that are married or otherwise in a monogamous relationship, will have sex with another without telling their spouse or mate. Bi-males/females, rationalize that that it's not cheating if you have sex with the same gender, therefore, there is no need to tell your significant other. I disagree.

I'm not the most virtuous person, as I have sex with people whom are in a relationship, but if you make a commitment involving faithfulness, you are honor bound by it. Splitting hairs with words is a cop-out.

Saying that, I've been accused of being a hypocrite, and perhaps I am but I still realize what I'm doing is considered by many to be morally wrong. Being party to liaison where the female (in my case) is married, is not right, by conventional standards, but still, I do it anyway. That would put me just as guilty (more or less) as the person who is the perpetrator.

What are your thoughts?

`

[lizard-lix]

well this is an oft tread topic... I even did both a guys and girls cheating poll here:

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11272&highlight=cheat
http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11276&highlight=cheat

That said.. Yep, if you cheat, or enable it by playing with committed people who don't tell their partners, it's still cheating, in my opinion.

There are a lot of excuses.. I only sleep with my own sex, so that is not cheating is a popular one.. I have a very hard time getting the justification here, If we are bi, then we like sex with both genders, so if we have sex without our partner's knowledge and that is not supposed to be, it is cheating. Again, in my opinion.

As a monogamous married person (32 years), it's not easy sometimes. I don't touch others (never have, never will unless it is agreed upon), but I do cyber a little, my wife knows I have 'online friends' but avoids the details. Some would call this cheating too. I am on the fence, but I can see both sides here. That she is aware of it, we've talked about it in general, and she has not asked me not to, allows me to be OK with it.

We've been trying to decide if I may play with others, we started thinking about the possibility of us playing with others together, but after some time at a swinger's club, she is heading toward deciding that she is not interested. Now we need to decide if I may.. With guys only, with girls only, with either, under what circumstances or not at all.

Like I said, it isn't easy as this decision and negotiation has been going on for over two years (just ask other regulars here, who are probably gagging at seeing this yet again :tong: But I guess that I'd rather it be this way, than sneaking around and lying. That is the real issue, I want to stay married to my wife for the rest of our lives, we love each other, are best friends and spend almost 24/7 together as I work from home. Lying, especially about something like this just isn't an option. Again, in my opinion...

[tenni]

It seems that there are an awful lot of people who post on this site are in some monosexual relationship that is restricted by monogamy.

This monogamy belief structure seems to adhere to a mainstream morality based on the needs and constructs of heterosexuality.

I believe that bisexuals should reject such morality belief structures just as they should reject the morality belief structure that being sexually attracted to both genders is wrong.

Both create unneccessary stress and burden for Bisexuals often making their lives hell as they struggle to conform.

I think that it is best to be able to be honest and open with a partner under any circumstance. We should not be ashamed to tell potential partners that as bisexuals our needs do not align with monogamy. Unfortunately, societal pressure makes us feel ashamed of such beliefs.

Having written that, I sometimes have a desire to be in a monogamous relationship. It just doesn't work for me though although it has in the past for certain lengths of time.

[lizard-lix]

Tenni, I so agree with you!

I agreed to monogamy when I was 22, and both my wife and myself had been deeply steeped in the american/Judeao-christian thing..

I chafed but was ok with it for a long time, but as I got older I accepted it less, and now I am trying to fix it... Truthfully, I think monogamy should be an option, for those that prefer it, right up there with polyamory, triples, 4ples, slutdom (my person choice prior to marriage) and celibacy. None of these are right for everyone, but somewhere in there, there is something that should fit anyone.

But.. as I said above the whole issue, to me at least, in this thread is the lying aspect. Monogamy may be dumb, but if you promised, you promised.. If it doesn't work, renegotiate, or if that doesn't work, make a choice..

Many feel handcuffed by family (ie my spouse would divorce me and I can't deal with that/lose access to my kids/my 401k/etc), that is the unfortunate scenario, but we still need to make our choices in life and then we choose to live with them or fix them...

[tenni]

Liz
Lying?
If you are bisexual, you should never promise monogamy when entering a relationship with anyone. Your promise should be something else worked out in advance.

Again, why are we expected to promise monogamy? Heterosexual morality.

Unfortunately, bisexuals do not encourage this approach. Some argue that they are satisfied in a monogamous relationship without any conditions should they find themselves in your position. When you married 32 years ago, the concept about bisexuality and monogamy were probably never presented to you. You are seen by the moral majority (monosexual or bisexual) as the one who is wrong. Who states that your partner is being un reasonable and that she should be ashamed for acting in this manner? Probably very few on this site. Who would say that you should be ashamed if you have sex outside of your monosexual monogamous relationship under the circumstances that you find yourself in? Probably quite a few.

[keefer201]

Cheating, and there is no way around this one. Sometimes you need to make your yes be yes or your no be no without the explinations.

[lizard-lix]

The point about lying is that if I (or anyone else) makes a promise, going back on that promise without being released from it is wrong to me. I made that promise, so I am bound to it, I consider that very simple.

I believe in being ethical.

We don't need discuss whether I should have or not made it, as I agree with you. However my bisexuality has nothing to do with it. I don't think monogamy is any better for many/most/maybe all monosexuals than it is for bi/poly/whateversexuals.

One note: My marriage is the only monogamous relationship I have ever had and the only one where I made that promise. Coming from the pre AIDs time, I usually refer to myself when I was single as a happy slut, and I never portrayed myself any differently.

Our society (read "The Church" - or any other religious organization of your choosing), has pushed monogamy, mostly for the convenience of general control and for hanging onto the father for support. Making the father responsible is not a bad idea, as leaving women with children without support is just wrong (some societies fix that by making children the responsibility of the group, some of the ones that do this work well, but they are mostly societies we consider primitive, rightly or wrongly). But forced monogamy is not good fix either, like any other form of prohibition, it simply doesn't work. However for some reason (maybe training, maybe wiring), some choose monogamy, and to them, my best wishes.

[innaminka]

Monogomy is and always has been the implied state of marriage, and certainly most people entering a marriage would have that aim. (Hollywood people excepted!!)

sadly we're all subject to human weakness which manifests itself in many ways - infidelity being just one.

As to the ethics, I have always believed that once the knickers are removed, that is, for want of a better word, cheating: regardless of the gender of the other person.
That is up to each individual to reconcile with their on conscience and be extension, their "committed" partner if they so wish.

I was very, very human for many years. I am now monogomous.

[Gearbox]

This isn't strictly confined to bi's. The 'it isn't cheating if it's with the same gender', thing, is the same as 'it isn't cheating if it meant nothing! Just casual sex!', thing with hetero's and gays.

Yes, sex with others without your partners consent is cheating in monogamous relationships. Which IMO leaves 'morals' way out of the picture right there to begin with! But 'cheating' it IS under those rules, and ONLY those rules!

Trouble is, having extramarital sex that really IS nothing more than a sexual release doesn't seem to warrant permission by anyone. Much like having a wank, it's no threat to the relationship in the mind of the 'cheater'. Having been with married men, I could testify to that! There's nothing but sexual release going on.
I'll go as far to claim that it has a positive effect on their relationship ( I don't do bad either).:tongue:

BUT the trust aspect is sadly dire, even if the act isn't! Partners of any kind should be able to be open and honest with each other. That's the sore point between the 'cheaters' and the 'cheated'.

[bityme]

I believe that bisexuals should reject such morality belief structures just as they should reject the morality belief structure that being sexually attracted to both genders is wrong.

Both create unneccessary stress and burden for Bisexuals often making their lives hell as they struggle to conform.

I think that it is best to be able to be honest and open with a partner under any circumstance. We should not be ashamed to tell potential partners that as bisexuals our needs do not align with monogamy. Unfortunately, societal pressure makes us feel ashamed of such beliefs.

Having written that, I sometimes have a desire to be in a monogamous relationship. It just doesn't work for me though although it has in the past for certain lengths of time.

It is easy to reject a belief, but hard to change the practice of society. While evidence seems to continue to grow that orientation is much more than a choice (my belief also), that has not yet become mainstream thinking.

As Lizard-Lix points out:
"Our society (read "The Church" - or any other religious organization of your choosing), has pushed monogamy, mostly for the convenience of general control and for hanging onto the father for support. Making the father responsible is not a bad idea, as leaving women with children without support is just wrong (some societies fix that by making children the responsibility of the group, some of the ones that do this work well, but they are mostly societies we consider primitive, rightly or wrongly). But forced monogamy is not good fix either, like any other form of prohibition, it simply doesn't work. However for some reason (maybe training, maybe wiring), some choose monogamy, and to them, my best wishes.:

our society, particularly the puritanical-based one in the U.S., is pretty rigid and at least there is some arguable rationale for the position taken.

If bisexuals reject monogamy the question then becomes one of what options will be socially acceptable. Gays and Lesbians have accomplished great social change and transgendered individuals are now viewed as a medical matter, having surgeries available and legal changes to birth certificates, etc. But what of bisexuals?

Which of the wide ranging practices would become the acceptable norm? Should we limit polyamory to a threesome or two couples? Do away with any permanency in relationships and recognize the right to be with whoever you chose for as long as you want to stay? Limit marriages to a particular period of time but allow renewals? Require premarital agreements in all cases, particularly when children might be involved? Require special licenses and guaranteed financial arrangements for reproduction? And so many other questions.

Change is slow. It is extremely difficult for bisexual individuals to find someone with exactly the same outlook. This is particularly true when so many people fall in love and marry so young. Based on my own observations, I have come to believe that the majority of bisexuals I have encountered either discovered their bisexuality later in life or felt earlier experimentation was just that, elected monogamy, and later had their urges return, particularly when the sexual relationship within the marriage changed while they were still locked into the relationship otherwise either by financial considerations, sense of commitment, or just the fact that everything else in the relationship was still good.

We now recognize that people continue to grow, their tastes and desires change. Five or ten years into a relationship, a couple are no longer the same as they were at the beginning. Society has recognized this by easing the requirements for divorce. Large numbers of couples with both working has changed the financial dynamics, but the overall rules based on family preservation and providing for children are still very much the same as they used to be.

I consider myself extremely fortunate. I am about to enter into my third marriage where I and my ladies have rejected monogamy and set ground rules to continue sexual explorations outside of our relationships. I have encountered many other couples who have tried such an arrangement, but very few who have not, at some point, had a falling out that resulted in a return to monogamy or a break up of the marriage. The most common reason seemed to be a decision by one of the partners that they no longer wanted to play outside the marriage.

I have personally had several relationships with couples on both a semi-regular and a regular basis, where the wives have decided that they no longer wanted to play. In each case the expressed reason was that they just wanted to return to monogamy.

Each couple is different and each of them have to handle it in the manner that works for them. While some might classify certain actions as "cheating" and condemn the practice, the fact that it might be preserving an otherwise good marriage still has to be considered.

Personally, we will play with married individuals in a club or party environment but not privately without the permission of their spouse. We don't want to be drawn into the situation of being perceived as the cause of a breakup. At a club or a party, their decision was made without our being their reason.

Yes, splitting hairs can be viewed as a cop-out. You also have to remember that the idea of cheating is the same today as it was in the 1600s when settlers started to arrive in North America. Other dynamics of western society have changed considerably since then.

Having practiced law before my retirement and also holding a degree in psychology, it is my opinion that absent the ability to establish good communication and a workable agreement between the parties, "cheating" is a much better option than being stuck with a vow made many years earlier in the heat of passion. Sticking to the vow so very often creates circumstances that foster building resentment and the ultimate breakdown of an otherwise good relationship.

I also recognize that "cheating" can never be done in a manner which guarantees not being found out. The consequences can be drastic for anyone from Presidents to bricklayers. But they are very much the same consequences as the breakdown of the relationship due to building resentment and anger. The primary difference is that in the "cheating" situation you seldom see the development of violence between the parties that you see in the case of the building resentment and anger.

Each potential "cheater" has to make the decision themselves. Hopefully, "cheating" will only happen after all other avenues have failed and then, only, with full consideration of the consequences that might result.

While my heart goes out to the parties under those circumstances, I cannot condemn the "Cheater" for the decision made and action taken.

My heart also goes out to the person who makes the decision not to cheat. They face the burden of working to maintain a stable relationship while suppressing their own desires and preventing the resentment or anger from building. Those who have disclosed their desires to their spouses and agreed not to act on them do appear to be more successful because they can use that communication with the spouse to help them through some of the hard spots.

Just my two cents! :2cents:

Pappy

[Molecular]

Very eloquently put pappy! I could not have said it better myself. As a bisexual who was in a monogamous relationship for years both me and my wonderful woman both grew to fell the resentment. A couple of months ago we sat down and discussed our views on the antiquated idea of monogamy and both came to the conclusion that it was no longer working for us! Since we decided to allow each other to sleep with the same sex our relationship has never been stronger and I genuinely look forward to spending alot of time with her just like it was in the beginning of our relationship! So what I guess I'm saying is that you shouldn't have to cheat if you are open and honest with your spouse!

[æonpax]

It is easy to reject a belief, but hard to change the practice of society. While evidence seems to continue to grow that orientation is much more than a choice (my belief also), that has not yet become mainstream thinking.<snipped for brevity>
Pappy

Excellent dissertation.
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[tenni]

Pappy
"Which of the wide ranging practices would become the acceptable norm? Should we limit polyamory to a threesome or two couples?"

These are beginning question points for bisexuals to examine and accept for themselves. We do not have to answer them immediately.

First we should promote amongst ourselves a recognition that the mainstream heterosexual morality is not for us and those who enter into any relationship with us. It is acceptable not to adhere to monogamy and we should not feel guilt and shame for being bisexual with our own morality.

We should stop attacking bisexuals who can not be monogamous even if they have entered a relationship that adheres to the mainstream heterosexual constructs. First stop attacking ourselves and demanding this morality from our sisters and brothers. We can not change a mainstream attitude unless we believe in our own morality.

In fact, just as there are several variations on how bisexuals are bisexuals why should we even be determining an answer to your questions?

I believe that the majority in my society(Canada) accept homosexuality as not a choice. I don't believe that they have the foggiest idea about how bisexuals are not just gay or straight. Monosexuals will not help us create our own space and morality.

[Rhevan]

I've been reading this board without being registered for a bit and only now feel the need to respond to a thread.

Bisexuals are not some weird species that has to have one of each to survive and to make a blanket statement that anyone who is bisexual is not acceptable if they are monogamous. There are shades of monogamy, for myself I was part of a triad, I had a primary couple that I loved dearly and I willingly bound myself to the monogamy of being with just my female partner because her male partner literally could not perform with another woman. For the eight years of the relationship I did not go outside of it for male companionship yet I didn't stop wanting to have a nice hard cock inside me.

So bisexuals can accept being monogamous just as heterosexuals do and homosexuals do, it's not a matter of sexuality it's a matter of the person themselves. Some are monogamous by nature some only thrive in swinging settings or in polygamous relationships. But to devalue anyone as "not acceptable" creates schisms within our own movement. We all have value and we all have a different shade of honor we adhere to, and we all make our own choices. No one speaks for all of us, no one. :2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

there is a on going trend that I have noticed in the site....... and that is people that are monogamous are being labelled as people that are conforming to the christian / monosexual / mainstream heterosexual morality.....

so I am curious, what are non monogamous people conforming to.... a non christian / omnisexual / mainstream bisexual morality and why are we trying to *force * people to conform to a different lifestyle.......

what happened to freedom of choice, to live within the lifestyle you wanted, without being expected to live the way that others expect you to live, cos of their opinion and viewpoint of sexuality and fidelity.......

honestly, my simple opinion, about cheating, fidelity etc all rests on one thing.... if you can not handle monogamy, do your best to find a compromise with your partner if possible, its better than lying to the one you love, a broken heart or a divorce....... cos I am willing to bet that in most cases, your partner would like to know about things and may well have a few * secrets * of their own they may be interested in trying

its not always possible to find that compromise and things do not always work out....unfortunately thats a aspect of life.......

seriously, telling people that they are conforming to a set way of life ???? thats like saying that they are not living a life that they feel comfortable with.... but either living the life they are * told to live by others * and being told to live the life you want them to live, cos its your understanding of how others should be.........

I am fully expecting that I will be told that being a asexual person that my opinion is invalid, I am not bisexual etc etc.... but I have tried a open relationship like many people, and struggled badly with it.... so the sexuality doesn't matter, its the ability to handle a open relationship that is the key.....

again in a nutshell, the people like bityme are not in open relationships / marriage cos they are conforming to a bisexual ideology, they are in them cos they are contented and happy in them.... like many monogamous people are not conforming to a mainstream monosexual lifestyle, they are simply happy in a monogamous relationship with the one they love and want no body else......

not all people handle monogamy or open relationships and settled for FBs, who se lifestyle are they conforming to ?????

and yeah, if you want a open relationship, try talking with your partner, it may work, it may not... but it can be better than lying to the one you love

[æonpax]

`
My perspective on this;


If you promise or otherwise make a commitment to your partner, to be faithful, I feel a person is bound by honor to that, regardless of orientation.

The rationalization that sex with the same gender is not really sex becuase its homosexual, renders the whole concept of sex to be one of pleasure without meaning, and that is not right. Many men/women have sex with other men/women becuase they are in love.

I willfully violate certain social norms but I accept the responsibility of my actions. Making excuses just seems to me to be a cop-out.


`

[tenni]

I agree with you aenopax that if you make a promise that you should try to keep that promise whatever that promise is. I feel bound by honour regardless of my orientation or whatever promise that I make. Sex is sex but some bisexuals find that they can not be happy with a promise made within heterosexual norms that our society is based on. Not all factors are known when a promise is made. If someone promises you to meet at a place on a certain date and later factors become known that makes it difficult or impossible to meet you, do you condemn them and say that they are coping out? Do you show understanding and open your mind to accepting their reason?

I also willfully violate social norms just by being a bisexual. Just what am I responsible for though for being a bisexual?

As far as being responsible for whomever I chose to have sex with I accept the responsibility for my action. I accept that people have sex not because they are in love but because they need sex. Love may be another factor for having a relationship with a person and in particular a monogamous relationship. I doubt that love is the primary reason for many people having sex though. (ok some men in particular ;)

I do not see another bisexual who finds it extremely difficult to stay within the monogamous heterosexual norms as a co out though. It isn't an excuse. It is a reality that they can not remain monogamous in a heterosexual relationship. As bisexuals we should accept this and not slur these people by referring to them as copping out.

I also agree that monogamy is not exclusive to monosexuals but the chances of a bisexual finding it difficult to remain monogamous may be greater. I don't think that there is any solid evidence that bisexuals can or can not be happy in a monogamous relationship. However, there are a lot of bisexuals who write about this difficulty. There must be some truth to it. The difference imo is that it isn't cross gender that they want but same sex. Therefore, I do see a difference between bisexuals and monosexuals in the area of fidelity.

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree with you aenopax that if you make a promise that you should try to keep that promise whatever that promise is. I feel bound by honour regardless of my orientation or whatever promise that I make. Sex is sex but some bisexuals find that they can not be happy with a promise made within heterosexual norms that our society is based on.

I also willfully violate social norms just by being a bisexual. Just what am I responsible for though for being a bisexual?

As far as being responsible for whomever I chose to have sex with I accept the responsibility for my action. I accept that people have sex not because they are in love but because they need sex. Love may be another factor for having a relationship with a person and in particular a monogamous relationship. I doubt that love is the primary reason for many people having sex though. (ok some men in particular

I do not see another bisexual who finds it extremely difficult to stay within the monogamous heterosexual norms as a co out though. It isn't an excuse. It is a reality that they can not remain monogamous in a heterosexual relationship. As bisexuals we should accept this and not slur these people by referring to them as copping out.

I also agree that monogamy is not exclusive to monosexuals but the chances of a bisexual finding it difficult to remain monogamous may be greater. I don't think that there is any solid evidence that bisexuals can or can not be happy in a monogamous relationship.

the difficulty with your statement when you use the heterosexual norms statements is that its limiting your statements to people in M/F relationships....

the trouble with that, is that it would not apply to M/M and F/F relationships, be they bisexual or gay people as they are not following heterosexual norms in their relationships.

heterosexual norms would be a F/M relationship... and anything outside of that, would fall outside of heterosexual norms.... and therefore by defination... any gay / lesbian or bisexual person in a monogamous relationship with a person of the same gender, is not following social conforming.... they are following their own compromise with their partner as to what is acceptable in their relationship........

so in essence, any couple that have a agreement as to what is acceptable, are not conforming to any norms, they are reaching a agreement between two ( or more ) people that is unique to them....... and that is how it should be and what we should be doing..... leaving people to make their choices for their relationships, not telling them they are conforming to hetero / monosexual norms and how they should be conforming to bi / omnisexual norms....

cos you know as well as I do, tenni, that many of us are sick to death of being told we should conform and live the way others tell us to, or being told how wrong we are for the lives we lead cos others say so......

is that not what we have fought so bloody hard for over the years... the right to be who we are, what we are and live our lives as best we can without discrimination, condemnation, judgement and told we do not belong or how we should not be conforming but to conform

[Moonlight_BHI]

I do agree with its not cheating in certain cases. My case:
If my partner doesn't care if I have female partners, I don't tell them unless they say I need to tell them.
If my partner says I can't unless there are rules set, I will not get female partners.


Honestly, it is all about how each person's partnership is.:2cents:
Currently I'm in a committed relationship that is possibly leading to marriage. We made rules and guidelines when it comes my bisexuality. So far, no cheating with the same gender in my commitment.

[æonpax]

I agree with you aenopax that if you make a promise that you should try to keep that promise whatever that promise is. I feel bound by honour regardless of my orientation or whatever promise that I make. Sex is sex but some bisexuals find that they can not be happy with a promise made within heterosexual norms that our society is based on. Not all factors are known when a promise is made. If someone promises you to meet at a place on a certain date and later factors become known that makes it difficult or impossible to meet you, do you condemn them and say that they are coping out? Do you show understanding and open your mind to accepting their reason?

I also willfully violate social norms just by being a bisexual. Just what am I responsible for though for being a bisexual?

As far as being responsible for whomever I chose to have sex with I accept the responsibility for my action. I accept that people have sex not because they are in love but because they need sex. Love may be another factor for having a relationship with a person and in particular a monogamous relationship. I doubt that love is the primary reason for many people having sex though. (ok some men in particular ;)

I do not see another bisexual who finds it extremely difficult to stay within the monogamous heterosexual norms as a co out though. It isn't an excuse. It is a reality that they can not remain monogamous in a heterosexual relationship. As bisexuals we should accept this and not slur these people by referring to them as copping out.

I also agree that monogamy is not exclusive to monosexuals but the chances of a bisexual finding it difficult to remain monogamous may be greater. I don't think that there is any solid evidence that bisexuals can or can not be happy in a monogamous relationship. However, there are a lot of bisexuals who write about this difficulty. There must be some truth to it. The difference imo is that it isn't cross gender that they want but same sex. Therefore, I do see a difference between bisexuals and monosexuals in the area of fidelity.

Tenni,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but do you assume that bisexuals are incapable of maintaining a sexually fidelious relationship with their mate? If so, why?

I ask becuase I've seen this argument before. I don't agree but neither will I dismiss it entirely.
`

[lizard-lix]

Tenni,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but do you assume that bisexuals are incapable of maintaining a sexually fidelious relationship with their mate? If so, why?

I ask becuase I've seen this argument before. I don't agree but neither will I dismiss it entirely.
`

This is one that comes up often, that bisexuals are almost entitled to have sex with both genders and monogamy doesn't make sense. I disagree with that. While it is true that a monogamous bisexual doesn't have sex with twice as many potential candidates as a monosexual, I never felt that just by being bi that I, or anyone like me, always got to have both. To me that is the equivalent of a monosexual saying that s/he gets to have a brunette and a redhead because s/he was attracted to both.

The number of people we have sex with is simply a result of the agreements we set in relationships, Many of us bought into, or accepted the age honored, or demanded, monogamous thing - right or wrong. Some haven't.

This thread, to me, is about changing your mind after the fact (or about more carefully thinking about it before the fact for those choosing now), and how we deal with our change of mind.. Do we simply suppress our desires, do we attempt to renegotiate the relationship with our partner(s) and live with the outcome - the desired one or not, or do we cheat? And what is the rightness or wrongness in doing any of these things.

[Light_and_Dark]

The very definition of cheating may surprise most people arguing...mind you a gay friend of mine was the one that pointed this out...

Cheating-One partner doing something harmful (sexually in either a physical or emotional sense) to the stated boundaries of the relationship...

IE. If I am in a relationship like i currently am with an extremely bisexual woman would it be cheating for her to sleep with other women? The answer is if I say nothing about it when she talks to me about her bisexuality then no it is not cheating...by me keeping my mouth shut I am stating that my PARTNER is not cheating on me by doing so...Though when I sit down and discuss it with her and tell her that it would disrespect our relationship then the very act of have sex with a woman would be her cheating on her partner.

Cheating is not the act of a man cheating on a woman or a woman cheating on a man or a man cheating on a man or a woman cheating on a woman the very definition of cheating is when one PARTNER man woman or it goes outside their relationship with their CURRENT PARTNER to fulfill their relationship needs....

A monogamous relationship whether straight gay or bi is just that one PARTNER with one PARTNER...Does not matter if you are straight or not. That normally brings up the question of if a bisexual woman is bisexual being in a monogamous relationship with a straight man that does not let her sleep with woman...yes the bi partner is still bi...just because you are not having intercourse or fooling around with members of the same sex does not change your sexuality.(this is mainly in reference to the stripper thread this opinion just applies to both).

Aeon just because society may view what your relationship standard is as morally apprehensible by the basic definition of cheating etc., your relationship actually falls within a normal bounds just most people cant look beyond the imaging itself to see that as acceptable.

Mind you this is just my opinion and as my mate stated earlier she does not share these views though she does understand my point of view and honors our partnership.

[æonpax]

This is one that comes up often, that bisexuals are almost entitled to have sex with both genders and monogamy doesn't make sense. I disagree with that. While it is true that a monogamous bisexual doesn't have sex with twice as many potential candidates as a monosexual, I never felt that just by being bi that I, or anyone like me, always got to have both. To me that is the equivalent of a monosexual saying that s/he gets to have a brunette and a redhead because s/he was attracted to both.

The number of people we have sex with is simply a result of the agreements we set in relationships, Many of us bought into, or accepted the age honored, or demanded, monogamous thing - right or wrong. Some haven't.

This thread, to me, is about changing your mind after the fact (or about more carefully thinking about it before the fact for those choosing now), and how we deal with our change of mind.. Do we simply suppress our desires, do we attempt to renegotiate the relationship with our partner(s) and live with the outcome - the desired one or not, or do we cheat? And what is the rightness or wrongness in doing any of these things.

It comes down to Love and Trust. The way I see it is that, trust is the certitude that the other person will not hurt me. If you love someone, truly, more than yourself, you will not betray that trust...and hurt them.

This concept and approach works the same in all the different orientations; straight, gay or whatever.

`

[Coastocoast]

I agree. I have let it be known I am not into anyone of either sex who is involved in a relationship. Having sex without your partner's knowledge is cheating. Unless you have absolute permission and for me to be involved I would need to hear the 3rd person give that permission to even consider it. I have heard every excuse but why not make that case to the person you are in a relationship with and see what they say. If they say go for it that is one thing but deception is another.

[bityme]

Pappy
"Which of the wide ranging practices would become the acceptable norm? Should we limit polyamory to a threesome or two couples?"

These are beginning question points for bisexuals to examine and accept for themselves. We do not have to answer them immediately.

First we should promote amongst ourselves a recognition that the mainstream heterosexual morality is not for us and those who enter into any relationship with us. It is acceptable not to adhere to monogamy and we should not feel guilt and shame for being bisexual with our own morality.

We should stop attacking bisexuals who can not be monogamous even if they have entered a relationship that adheres to the mainstream heterosexual constructs. First stop attacking ourselves and demanding this morality from our sisters and brothers. We can not change a mainstream attitude unless we believe in our own morality.

In fact, just as there are several variations on how bisexuals are bisexuals why should we even be determining an answer to your questions?

I believe that the majority in my society(Canada) accept homosexuality as not a choice. I don't believe that they have the foggiest idea about how bisexuals are not just gay or straight. Monosexuals will not help us create our own space and morality.

I did not pose the questions seeking an answer. I posed them to illustrate the complexity of bisexuality's impact on the very idea of an attempt to create a new norm. It is virtually impossible.

In thinking about it some more and seeing the additional responses, it might be that the issue is much simpler. Consider this:

It seems to be pretty well accepted that if you make a commitment to someone regarding sexual conduct (whether heterosexual, bisexual, or gay) and then you do something to violate that commitment or agreement the violation is characterized as "Cheating."

The traditional rule that keeps being touted is that once made, the commitment should never be violated under any circumstances. Keefer201 points out that there is no way around it, if you violate the commitment it's "Cheating." Aeonpax characterizes any attempt to rationalize breaking the commitment on the basis of bisexuality being different from other orientations as "hair-splitting" and a "cop-out." I can accept both of these positions.

There also seems to be almost universal agreement that if one is tempted to do something that would violate the commitment then the best course of action is to be open and honest with the other party and try to come to a new agreement on that issue. Certainly that is the ideal solution.

Absent a new agreement, if the commitment is broken, the violator is condemned as a "Cheater" whether the violation occurs 20 minutes or 20 years after the original commitment is made. The rule has no provision for examination of changed circumstances over time. A violation warrants the condemnation of the violator. Sadly, I must admit that I once held that position. Fortunately, I feel that over time I have developed a greater understanding of life's complexities and that belief has changed.

The label we use to describe a violation of such commitment is immaterial. What is material is the circumstances under which we condemn the violator. The question boils down to "When, if ever, is it proper for another to condemn the violator?"

If the violation occurs 20 minutes after the commitment there is a strong inference that the violator really had no intention of ever committing themself. If the time lapse is 20 years that inference is absent.

On the far end of the spectrum, when someone's spouse is in an accident and is in a coma but lives on for years and they finally seek companionship elsewhere they are not condemned, most often they are not even labeled a "Cheater" even though their conduct violates the commitment to the still living yet comatose spouse. The change of circumstances is recognized and not called "hair-splitting" or a "cop-out."

There are those who, regardless of the change of circumstances, hold to their commitment and I applaud them for it. There is no need to try and induce them to violate the commitment on the basis of their sexual orientation.

LDD and Light_and_Dark are correct. It is not a matter of conforming to a "norm," heterosexual or otherwise. It's a matter of the agreement between the parties. LDD points out that sometimes reaching a new agreement is not possible; that's the way life sometimes works. It is in such circumstances that the idea of condemnation needs to be examined.

I also find myself unable to condemn someone who, having encountered a change of circumstances, elects to violate the commitment without disclosure to the other party. They are the one intimately familiar with their situation. If they feel, after due consideration, that the non-disclosure is the best course of action, who am I to judge or second guess them? It makes no difference if we are talking about the traditional affair where a man "cheats" on his wife with another woman or the violation is seeking pleasure with another man.

Undoubtably, the decision to violate the commitment may carry the risk of harm to the relationship, but so might the failure to violate the commitment. Harm to the relationship might flow from the discovery of the violation or it might flow from the resentment and anger that develops by trying to maintain the commitment. Molecular relates having experienced that growing resentment and, fortunately, was able to work through it, coming to a new understanding. Others are not so lucky.

While the thread targets sexual conduct, the concept can be true of any number of issues. Cutting off or maintaining contact with a disliked friend or relative, eating a particular type of food, attending certain religious ceremonies, are just a few that might result in some type of agreement that one of the parties later finds a need to violate.

There really isn't a need to have a special answer because one is bisexual. The need is to determine the appropriateness of a course of action which violates a portion of an old agreement due to changed circumstances. Where partners have a good relationship with the exception of that single issue, I personally have to respect their decision on the course of action, or inaction, taken. To condemn them on the basis of an inflexible rule is something I find inappropriate in today's world. I have yet to meet anyone who has not, at some point, needed to make a choice between different courses of action and characterized their choice as "the lesser of two evils."

I believe I have been fortunate in having relationships where, like Molecular, I have reached agreement with my partners on our rejection of traditional monogamy. At the same time, I recognize that I am, no doubt, a member of a very small minority who have that luxury. I believe it would be unreasonable for me to attempt to impose my solution on others as the only way to resolve their personal dilemma.

Pappy

[Light_and_Dark]

Pappy i believe you misread what i wrote...Yes i stated it is not about traditional values but it IS about values...stating that cheating is about harming the relationship NOT telling them is just as bad as telling them. When it comes down to it and you find yourself talking to your partner about your desire to countermand the original agreements to the relationship then you have to take their opinions AND your own feelings into nature.

If your partner wants to maintain monogamy with you and you decide to break that monogamy and just not tell them at that point you are not honoring the relationship in any sense of the words. At that point you are no longer their partner though they are yours. Which means the relationship is selfish and more harmful...Eventually the truth will be learned and you are now wasting their lives. No matter how old the commitment is the commitment is still valid..When you try to renegotiate it you are doing the right thing but when your partner decides that they could not have the relationship you want it is your place to decide if betraying them means more to you then the commitment they expect from you.

I dont care if you are bisexual homosexual heterosexual or any other sexual you could think of this would be an act of betrayal beyond all others to yourself and to your partner. Know this the truth always comes out no matter how much you dont tell them or you hide it. The truth will always come lose.

[Darkside2009]

I think the crux of the matter is, there can be no trust without honesty, and no honesty without trust.

If one's feelings towards one's partner have altered through time, then it is incumbent upon the party to sit their partner down, explain their feelings have altered and seek to obtain a new agreement.

If the other partner feels they are not interested in a new agreement, they should be set free to seek a relationship elsewhere, with someone more compatible, on the basis of irreconcilable differences. At least that way they will still retain some respect for each other.

To do otherwise is to keep them locked into a relationship under false pretences.

Mention has been made of the frustration and anger that can build up in the relationship through the new found interest being thwarted, but should that be accorded any greater weight than an unwilling, partner being forced to endure an extension to their relationship that they did not ask for or desire in the first place?

What of their feelings, their emotions, are they simply to be trampled on or disregarded because they no longer suit the agenda?

Many of those so affected will be women, who have perhaps given up chances of a career in order to rear children, provide a comfortable home and support for their partner over many years.

Many of those women will have been out of the employment market for so long that their skills will be rusty. Are they to be consigned to doing menial jobs and trying to find a new partner, when perhaps their looks have faded and they feel less confidant because of it, and all because their husbands now want to have sex with another man or woman?

Is it any wonder they might feel aggrieved? The very least we owe our partners is honesty, irrespective of their gender, they've worked for it, they've earned it, they deserve nothing less.

[tenni]

Aenopax re post 20
I notice that you were not able/willing to tell me what my responsibilities are for being bisexual and violating the social norm and mainstream heterosexual morality. Why is that? I am led to believe that you are selective as to what moral social norms of the mainstream that you adhered to and which you ignore?

Do I believe that bisexuals are incapable of being monogamous? I wrote that it was extremely difficult for some bisexuals. Earlier I wrote that some bisexuals live in monogamous relationships and are happy. There is no one size fits all. I do believe that it is best for bisexuals not to promise to be monogamous but some other agreement to acknowledge their bisexuality and how that might impact the relationship in the future.

ie I promise that I will tell my hetero partner when I need to have sex with a same sex person or if a bisexual is with a same sex partner when the bi person needs to have sex with cross gender person.

I'm sure that if bi posters got off their guilt trip about having to conform to mainstream heterosexual norm about being monogamous that we could do some real good on this site and come up with a long list of "promises" that a bisexual person might be wiser to agree to than monogamy.

Breaking a promise is unfortunate but as I pointed out people do it all the time. We need to lower the guilt crap that is placed upon those who find themselves with no option but to break their monogamous promise.

There are many forms of cheating and frequently one partner shuts down on the sexual aspects of their relationship responsibilities. Some cheat emotionally by spending enormous times on the internet, excessive times parenting to avoid communication with their partner, excessive amounts of time at work to avoid similar scenarios.

I generally agree with a lot of points made by Pappy but it is about conforming to a mainstream heterosexual norm called monogomy expectations as compulsory requirement for a marriage etc. There would be no issue of cheating if bisexuals knew enough not to make such a monogamous promise. Sadly, there is a lot of pressure on bisexuals to agree to this promise though from the mainsteam hererosexual morality.

[DuckiesDarling]

Aenopax re post 20
I notice that you were not able/willing to tell me what my responsibilities are for being bisexual and violating the social norm and mainstream heterosexual morality. Why is that? I am led to believe that you are selective as to what moral social norms of the mainstream that you adhered to and which you ignore?

Do I believe that bisexuals are incapable of being monogamous? I wrote that it was extremely difficult for some bisexuals. Earlier I wrote that some bisexuals live in monogamous relationships and are happy. There is no one size fits all. I do believe that it is best for bisexuals not to promise to be monogamous but some other agreement to acknowledge their bisexuality and how that might impact the relationship in the future.

ie I promise that I will tell my hetero partner when I need to have sex with a same sex person or if a bisexual is with a same sex partner when the bi person needs to have sex with cross gender person.

I'm sure that if bi posters got off their guilt trip about having to conform to mainstream heterosexual norm about being monogamous that we could do some real good on this site and come up with a long list of "promises" that a bisexual person might be wiser to agree to than monogamy.

Breaking a promise is unfortunate but as I pointed out people do it all the time. We need to lower the guilt crap that is placed upon those who find themselves with no option but to break their monogamous promise.

There are many forms of cheating and frequently one partner shuts down on the sexual aspects of their relationship responsibilities. Some cheat emotionally by spending enormous times on the internet, excessive times parenting to avoid communication with their partner, excessive amounts of time at work to avoid similar scenarios.

I generally agree with a lot of points made by Pappy but it is about conforming to a mainstream heterosexual norm called monogomy expectations as compulsory requirement for a marriage etc. There would be no issue of cheating if bisexuals knew enough not to make such a monogamous promise. Sadly, there is a lot of pressure on bisexuals to agree to this promise though from the mainsteam hererosexual morality.

I will say in reading this thread I agree with all the posters with the exception of Tenni. When you are in a relationship you set boundaries. Relationships differ, people can swing, be poly, be monogamous, be in love with a martian and planning a honeymoon on the moon, it doesn't matter, what matters is partners communicate. They talk about things and they do not use sexuality as a crutch for being socially crippled at telling their partner their true feelings.

I greatly resent the implication that people use parenting to emotionally cheat on their partners. If the partner was any kind of a partner they would be helping with the children in the first place. For anything else just refer to the pic.

[æonpax]

Aenopax re post 20
a) I notice that you were not able/willing to tell me what my responsibilities are for being bisexual and violating the social norm and mainstream heterosexual morality. Why is that? I am led to believe that you are selective as to what moral social norms of the mainstream that you adhered to and which you ignore?<snipped for brevity>

I didn't accuse or attack you or anyone else of anything, but that's besides the point. My question to you was very direct...



do you assume that bisexuals are incapable of maintaining a sexually fidelious relationship with their mate?


...of which in this reply, I could not pick out an answer. And yes, I do pick and chose which of societies norms I follow. Doesn't everyone?

While I think all the replies here have merit, they are getting obfuscated with ambiguous terminology and rhetoric. To answer my own question to you, do I think bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship with their mate, Yes they are. But the caveat here is that a) this is my opinion based on my common sense and b) there have never been any studies and research done on this subject. I cannot judge the whole by it's singular parts.

It would be disingenuous and illogical for me to assume anything about bisexual fidelity with such a lack facts. Heck, we can't even guess the actual amount of bisexuals in the US much less follow their sexual practices.

I do know this, if you love someone, you will not hurt them and if cheating hurts your mate, you will not do it. This cuts across over all cultures, beliefs and orientations.

At 28, I have not gotten married yet and at the root of that is my fear of being unfaithful to my life companion. Until I meet that person, whom I will love unconditionally, single I remain.

In the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, there is an ancient Greek aphorism;


"Know thyself"

and for each person, it is different. This goes for everyone

[Long Duck Dong]

interesting.... I can still see that some people do not get it......

monogamy for many, is a choice, its part of who they are, not what ever norms they are supposedly conforming to..... but their love for their partner, their desire to be with their partner and the fact that their sexuality urges are not strong enuf to push them to seek the genitals of another, is clearly going to be seen as conforming to *norms *

its clear that their choices in their relationships that are a choice and understanding between themselves and their partners, are never going to be considered as a declaration of love and commitment...... but conforming to norms..... and thats something that can be very insulting and offensive to so many people of different sexualities...... as its basically saying that they are not living the way they are happiest, but living the way social says, like good sheep........

its in the same way that those that swing, have open relationships, polyamorous relationships are not conforming to the * findings of studies * about how monogamy is wrong... but living a lifestyle that fits their wants, desires and needs...... they are living the lifestyle that makes them happy, and not saying that they are fighting back about social norms by living the way they do.....

to devalue any persons relationship to * conforming to social norms * is to devalue the love, caring, passion, emotions and compromise that went into the relationship..... and that applies to any relationship, any sexuality........

[Pasadenacpl2]

I do not see another bisexual who finds it extremely difficult to stay within the monogamous heterosexual norms as a co out though. It isn't an excuse. It is a reality that they can not remain monogamous in a heterosexual relationship. As bisexuals we should accept this and not slur these people by referring to them as copping out.

I was with you until this statement.

If you are in a committed relationship (no matter the gender of people involved) and you then go outside that relationship without consultation of your partner, you are cheating.

That you are bisexual (or monosexual, or pansexual, or heterosexual, or homosexual, or trisexual) does not change this fact.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

interesting.... I can still see that some people do not get it......

monogamy for many, is a choice, its part of who they are, not what ever norms they are supposedly conforming to..... but their love for their partner, their desire to be with their partner and the fact that their sexuality urges are not strong enuf to push them to seek the genitals of another, is clearly going to be seen as conforming to *norms *

its clear that their choices in their relationships that are a choice and understanding between themselves and their partners, are never going to be considered as a declaration of love and commitment...... but conforming to norms..... and thats something that can be very insulting and offensive to so many people of different sexualities...... as its basically saying that they are not living the way they are happiest, but living the way social says, like good sheep........

its in the same way that those that swing, have open relationships, polyamorous relationships are not conforming to the * findings of studies * about how monogamy is wrong... but living a lifestyle that fits their wants, desires and needs...... they are living the lifestyle that makes them happy, and not saying that they are fighting back about social norms by living the way they do.....

to devalue any persons relationship to * conforming to social norms * is to devalue the love, caring, passion, emotions and compromise that went into the relationship..... and that applies to any relationship, any sexuality........


We saw this in the 60s and 70s. Anyone who does things in a traditional way is somehow a traitor to "the movement." We see it in the gay "community" frequently. It's an attempt at vilification of anyone who does not agree with all of the tenets of "free love without responsibility." Honestly, this happens in any push for social change, that loyal supporters are vilified because they haven't drunk the entire jug of koolaid. It's to be expected.

Pasa

[æonpax]

interesting.... I can still see that some people do not get it......

monogamy for many, is a choice, its part of who they are, not what ever norms they are supposedly conforming to..... but their love for their partner, their desire to be with their partner and the fact that their sexuality urges are not strong enuf to push them to seek the genitals of another, is clearly going to be seen as conforming to *norms *

its clear that their choices in their relationships that are a choice and understanding between themselves and their partners, are never going to be considered as a declaration of love and commitment...... but conforming to norms..... and thats something that can be very insulting and offensive to so many people of different sexualities...... as its basically saying that they are not living the way they are happiest, but living the way social says, like good sheep........

its in the same way that those that swing, have open relationships, polyamorous relationships are not conforming to the * findings of studies * about how monogamy is wrong... but living a lifestyle that fits their wants, desires and needs...... they are living the lifestyle that makes them happy, and not saying that they are fighting back about social norms by living the way they do.....

to devalue any persons relationship to * conforming to social norms * is to devalue the love, caring, passion, emotions and compromise that went into the relationship..... and that applies to any relationship, any sexuality........
`
What I find interesting if your use of Objectivism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_%28Ayn_Rand%29) (if it feels good, do it) or rational morality to fill in the ethical gaps. I personally have no problem with any person choosing and justifying their lifestyle choice. Regardless though, one must still take responsibility for their actions, which violate the Judeo/Christian influenced mores, that the overwhelming majority of Western civilizations still cling to.

In many states in the US, there are still laws, (some at the level of a felony) for adultery, sodomy and denial of affection so one cannot just capriciously ignore something society finds illegal, offensive or taboo, regardless of how we may justify our own actions.

I'm just saying...
`

[Long Duck Dong]

aeonpax..... I look at it from the point of view that no matter what you do, somebody else will bitch about it.... but its your life, your choice..... and its the same with a relationship / marriage,.. you and your partner/s are the ones that need to be happy with your situations, not the rest of the world

I am responsible for my actions, be they illegal or legal, immoral or moral....and 99% of the time, I do not give a shit about laws and rules, I will do as I want and fuck the consequences, I will deal with them later..... if at all
but I respect people and that is paramount to me.....

I have a simple understanding, if people do not like the way i live, fine, don't live with me, don't talk to me, hell, don't even like me, I do not care..... cos what matters to me, is my partner and my friendships..... and that is what I see cos at the end of the day, they are the ones that will either hold and hug me or kick my ass.... and no social norm, conforming, legal law etc etc is going to stop me caring about and loving them and vice versa.....

I trust you understand what I am saying, as you have a unique situation yourself... and how you are living a way that works for you regardless of what social norms you are expected to live by, or conform to....

so I have to ask, how concerned are you about the fact that you are not conforming to what others feel you should be doing and how you should be living your life..... and does it really matter to you that others think you are wrong for your choices

[æonpax]

aeonpax..... I look at it from the point of view that no matter what you do, somebody else will bitch about it.... but its your life, your choice..... and its the same with a relationship / marriage,.. you and your partner/s are the ones that need to be happy with your situations, not the rest of the world

I am responsible for my actions, be they illegal or legal, immoral or moral....and 99% of the time, I do not give a shit about laws and rules, I will do as I want and fuck the consequences, I will deal with them later..... if at all
but I respect people and that is paramount to me.....

I have a simple understanding, if people do not like the way i live, fine, don't live with me, don't talk to me, hell, don't even like me, I do not care..... cos what matters to me, is my partner and my friendships..... and that is what I see cos at the end of the day, they are the ones that will either hold and hug me or kick my ass.... and no social norm, conforming, legal law etc etc is going to stop me caring about and loving them and vice versa.....

I trust you understand what I am saying, as you have a unique situation yourself... and how you are living a way that works for you regardless of what social norms you are expected to live by, or conform to....

so I have to ask, how concerned are you about the fact that you are not conforming to what others feel you should be doing and how you should be living your life..... and does it really matter to you that others think you are wrong for your choices

None, whatsoever...and by the way, I agree with your synopsis. There are two facets to this. The legal core principle that US law follows;



Malum prohibitum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_prohibitum) - which is something wrong or illegal by virtue of a statute, such as speeding
and
Malum in se (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malum_in_se) - which is wrong or illegal becuase it's considered an evil in and of itself, such as murder.


Sexual conduct falls in the gray area as it is heavily influenced by Christian doctrine. The laws against gay marriage, in the US, are an example of this.

Another legal US legal principle is called Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty) which is basically the concept of following your own free will, and of course, taking responsibility. US courts allow for the expansion of such freedom VS the possible harm such freedoms may cause. The key here is "possible harm"

Unless one has a legal contract (such as a marriage contract or license) fidelity is (or should be) an emotional/psychological concern outside the law. If it is, each person entering any kind of relationship, should have the presence of mind to know what they are walking into and must agree to such terms, whether they be implicit or implied.

If any person, bisexual, heterosexual, gay, lesbian, et al, has an agreement in their relationship to remain faithful and violates it, they should be prepared for the consequences, including the possibility of social ostracization from the more, voyeuristic, judgmental and/or religious people.

While I could care less about myself, my lifestyle might bring shame or humiliation on my children where it open to the public. For me, it's a balancing act.
`

[Light_and_Dark]

tenni so far your posts have been ignorant and avoidant of the posts i made that were directed mainly at you. Monogamy is not just a hetero mainstream norm monogamy is not in reference to sexual preference at all. It is another facet of relationships altogether.

Monogamy is a norm because few healthy relationships can be made in polygamy yes i applaud the couples and groups that can cope with polygamy. I am sorry though the groups that can cope with it are so few and far between they are almost not worth mentioning in a counter argument.

If someone breaks the vows of being monogamous they are cheating...staying with a monogamous person while you hold no desire to be monogamous is something that should not happen so until you can pull your head out of your ass stop posting.

[sammie19]

It comes down to Love and Trust. The way I see it is that, trust is the certitude that the other person will not hurt me. If you love someone, truly, more than yourself, you will not betray that trust...and hurt them.

This concept and approach works the same in all the different orientations; straight, gay or whatever.

`

I do not think we can accept what you say with certainty. No matter how deeply people love another, even loving that person more than their very life, sexually there are times when they can and do commit acts of infidelity. I can support any claim that we are less likely to betray, but not one which has quite so much certainty as you make out.

[æonpax]

I do not think we can accept what you say with certainty. No matter how deeply people love another, even loving that person more than their very life, sexually there are times when they can and do commit acts of infidelity. I can support any claim that we are less likely to betray, but not one which has quite so much certainty as you make out.

`
First question; "Who is We?"

Secondly, check out my reply again;


The way I see it is that, trust is the certitude that the other person will not hurt me.
I gave my "opinion" on the matter. I did not say such a statement was some universal truism. Anyone is free to accept or reject it. Now if you are talking about the word "certitude", it would mean a measure of a person's positive feeling about something. Feelings are rather abstract and by their very nature, subject to change.

Us humans are very flawed creatures and make a lot of mistakes, including betraying a trust...and that's they way it goes.
`

[tenni]

"To answer my own question to you, do I think bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship with their mate, Yes they are. But the caveat here is that a) this is my opinion based on my common sense and b) there have never been any studies and research done on this subject. I cannot judge the whole by it's singular parts." (post 30)

Aenopax
Perhaps the question is not whether bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship but 'SHOULD" bisexuals expect that monogamy is the best route for them to live their life? Is it the route that will make them the happiest? Now, that may be an individual decision that varies from bisexual to bisexual but it should be a key question for us. Again I state that those that believe that monogamy makes them happy that is fine. We won't condemn you. Nor should other bisexuals hold up monogamy as the best route to live our lives. As a general rule of thought/practice, bisexuals should be reluctant to agree to a monogamous relationship.



tenni so far your posts have been ignorant and avoidant of the posts i made that were directed mainly at you. Monogamy is not just a hetero mainstream norm monogamy is not in reference to sexual preference at all. It is another facet of relationships altogether.

Monogamy is a norm because few healthy relationships can be made in polygamy yes i applaud the couples and groups that can cope with polygamy. I am sorry though the groups that can cope with it are so few and far between they are almost not worth mentioning in a counter argument.

If someone breaks the vows of being monogamous they are cheating...staying with a monogamous person while you hold no desire to be monogamous is something that should not happen so until you can pull your head out of your ass stop posting.

Light
If a bisexual and their partner try monogamy, that is fine and good luck to them. I am just stating that we need to acknowledge that it is not/should not be promoted as a norm for bisexuals to be monogamous and there is nothing wrong with that any more than there is something wrong with being sexually attracted to both genders. The mainstream heterosexual values condemn us for both. DON'T MAKE A VOW OF MONOGAMY if you are bisexual is my position. We should not give a flying fuck about cheating. Don't play that game with the monosexuals. Reject it. Come up with your own guidelines outside of monogamy for a relationship that will work for all in any relationships you may have. The fact that you refer to healthy relationships as those that are monogamous is telling about your attitude adhering to the mainstream hetero morality. There is a lot of pressure to conform to monogamy in most western societies. It is a normal state for monosexuals but that doesn't make it a normal, happy, healthy state for bisexuals. There are no studies to indicate which lifestyle is best for bisexuals. You are not a bad bisexual if monogamy is not working for you. I'm not going to pay any attention to any poster who promotes monogamy as the best lifestyle for bisexuals.

btw I'm not sure what you mean by referring to me as ignorant? I am fully aware about what I write and chose to live as a bisexual at this point in time.

[Rhevan]

"To answer my own question to you, do I think bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship with their mate, Yes they are. But the caveat here is that a) this is my opinion based on my common sense and b) there have never been any studies and research done on this subject. I cannot judge the whole by it's singular parts." (post 30)

Aenopax
Perhaps the question is not whether bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship but 'SHOULD" bisexuals expect that monogamy is the best route for them to live their life? Is it the route that will make them the happiest? Now, that may be an indivual decesion that varies from bisexual to bisexual but it should be a key question for us. Again I state that those that believe that monogamy makes them happy that is fine. We won't condemn you. Nor should other bisexuals hold up monogamy as the best route to live our lives.




Light
If a bisexual and their partner try monogamy, that is fine and good luck to them. I am just stating that we need to acknowledge that it is not/should not be promoted as a norm for bisexuals to be monogamous and there is nothing wrong with that any more than there is something wrong with being sexually attracted to both genders. The mainstream heterosexual values condemn us for both. DON'T MAKE A VOW OF MONOGAMY if you are bisexual is my position. We should not give a flying fuck about cheating. Don't play that game with the heteros. Reject it. You are not a bad bisexual if monogamy is not working for you. I'm not going to pay any attention to any poster who promotes monogamy for bisexuals.

btw I'm not sure what you mean by referring to me as ignorant? I am fully aware about what I write and chose to live as a bisexual at this point in time.

That is probably one of the most arrogant pieces of drivel I have ever seen posted anywhere. Did I miss the monthly meeting where they voted you as the spokesperson for bisexuals? Didn't think so. It's fine for you to speak for you, but you do not speak for me or many other bisexuals. We are allowed to make our own choices and our own mistakes in life. That is what strive to get other sexualities to let us do and you would try to take that right away? No, thank you. I am me and I am happy to be the way I am. I'm sorry that you are not happy with they way others are in this place but I would not make such blanket statements, I care about cheating, I care about people I have relationships with, I care.

[Long Duck Dong]

Light
If a bisexual and their partner try monogamy, that is fine and good luck to them. I am just stating that we need to acknowledge that it is not/should not be promoted as a norm for bisexuals to be monogamous and there is nothing wrong with that any more than there is something wrong with being sexually attracted to both genders. The mainstream heterosexual values condemn us for both. DON'T MAKE A VOW OF MONOGAMY if you are bisexual is my position. We should not give a flying fuck about cheating. Don't play that game with the heteros. Reject it. You are not a bad bisexual if monogamy is not working for you. I'm not going to pay any attention to any poster who promotes monogamy for bisexuals.

never get a job as a marriage counsellor.....:2cents:

[æonpax]

<snip>

Rhevan, In all the quotes you posted, I don't think any of these people, including moi, ever claimed to speak for all or any bisexuals. Whether I agree with them or not, they offered their OPINIONS in a discussion about this topic.

On occasion, I've been known to change my mind, with a poster who presents a strong factual and logical argument, contrary to mine, which is why I enjoy these things. Where people might not say certain things face to face or in public, they will open up on forums like this.

God forbid that we should all think alike.
`

[Light_and_Dark]

"To answer my own question to you, do I think bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship with their mate, Yes they are. But the caveat here is that a) this is my opinion based on my common sense and b) there have never been any studies and research done on this subject. I cannot judge the whole by it's singular parts." (post 30)

Aenopax
Perhaps the question is not whether bisexuals are capable of maintaining a faithful relationship but 'SHOULD" bisexuals expect that monogamy is the best route for them to live their life? Is it the route that will make them the happiest? Now, that may be an individual decision that varies from bisexual to bisexual but it should be a key question for us. Again I state that those that believe that monogamy makes them happy that is fine. We won't condemn you. Nor should other bisexuals hold up monogamy as the best route to live our lives. As a general rule of thought/practice, bisexuals should be reluctant to agree to a monogamous relationship.




Light
If a bisexual and their partner try monogamy, that is fine and good luck to them. I am just stating that we need to acknowledge that it is not/should not be promoted as a norm for bisexuals to be monogamous and there is nothing wrong with that any more than there is something wrong with being sexually attracted to both genders. The mainstream heterosexual values condemn us for both. DON'T MAKE A VOW OF MONOGAMY if you are bisexual is my position. We should not give a flying fuck about cheating. Don't play that game with the monosexuals. Reject it. Come up with your own guidelines outside of monogamy for a relationship that will work for all in any relationships you may have. The fact that you refer to healthy relationships as those that are monogamous is telling about your attitude adhering to the mainstream hetero morality. There is a lot of pressure to conform to monogamy in most western societies. It is a normal state for monosexuals but that doesn't make it a normal, happy, healthy state for bisexuals. There are no studies to indicate which lifestyle is best for bisexuals. You are not a bad bisexual if monogamy is not working for you. I'm not going to pay any attention to any poster who promotes monogamy as the best lifestyle for bisexuals.

btw I'm not sure what you mean by referring to me as ignorant? I am fully aware about what I write and chose to live as a bisexual at this point in time.

Well first off the ignorance comes from it does not matter bi homo or hetero polygamous relationships are not a NORM or GOOD for the average HUMAN...like i said before i applaud and am happy for the few out their that have made polygamy work for them...but psychologically polygamy does not fit with the normal HUMAN just because someone is bisexual does not mean they have the right to just debase themselves in the conceptualization of freedom.

You are pushing to radical of a view of what any of this could mean...and to be honest you are ignorant based on most of your own arguments in this chat. My great-grandmother raised me what is good for the goose is good for the gander....in this context that can be taken as what is good for gays is good for bi and good for straight...yes there are instances and percentages of the bi community where swinging and poly relationships are considered normal but for a majority do not believe that they SHOULD strive to have a one way polygamous relationship(which you have stated as acceptable several times one partner having an open relationship behind the other partners back).

As the lgbt community slowly takes their steps into the world they should not be looking to jump from the freezer into the frying pan...got to let that meat thaw for a bit...when a majority of bi and gays are afraid of their own attractions do not think it is wise to start pushing for an all out radical movement merely to defy monosexual people.

[tenni]

Rhevan
I have misled you if you think that I do not care/love for people that I enter into a relationship. I have been in monogamous relationships both with men and women(or so I thought that they were monogamous but they cheated on me). The awkwardness when one of the people who have agreed to monogamy and shame that we get wound up in more or less makes me think that we place too much value on monogamy. There must be a better way than mainstream hetero morality by devising our own unique conditions for the relationship.

I've been a bisexual for quite awhile. I've loved and cared for many in relationships. If monogamy is for you, I wish you well. Do not assume that those of us who do not see it as the best lifestyle for bisexuals will insist that you be poly or closed loop(would be my preference but that is for me) I'm a spokesperson for myself. This is what I presently believe based on my life experiences and observations from posters on this and other bisexual sites. It may be more specific for bisexual men though?


"That is probably one of the most arrogant pieces of drivel I have ever seen posted anywhere. Did I miss the monthly meeting where they voted you as the spokesperson for bisexuals? Didn't think so. It's fine for you to speak for you, but you do not speak for me or many other bisexuals. We are allowed to make our own choices and our own mistakes in life. That is what strive to get other sexualities to let us do and you would try to take that right away? No, thank you. I am me and I am happy to be the way I am. I'm sorry that you are not happy with they way others are in this place but I would not make such blanket statements, I care about cheating, I care about people I have relationships with, I care."

[dafydd]

Bisexuality shouldn't defined anymore by non-monogamy, than hetereosexuality is by monogamy. Not sure if there ever was such a thing as a heterosexual monogamous morality. I would say it's gender, rather than sexuality that plays a greater role in deciding non-monogamous activity.
Would it be unfair to guess that men are more likley to want multiple sexual partners than women? I don't know for sure, but have a hunch they do.
Gay men for example aren't anymore likely to be sexually promiscous than straight men. It is men in general who have the greater capacity for NSA sex. Gay men might have more sexual partners because they are only sleeping with men, and there's a lot more opportunity for casual NSA sex. Perhaps therefore there's a better understanding and freer discourse for the need for multiple sexual partners in some gay male relationships
(though that doesn't always equate to infidelity).

When I write about non-monogamy, I'm not writing about infidelity, as was the OP's question. Infidility is deception and I wouldn't like to say that any group was more likely to cheat than another. Sexuality and gender might alter degrees of desire, but trust is down to an individual's character (their past childhood/relationship experience, their 'moral code', their perspective on sex and relationships, their priorities in life etc.) Character is a unique factor that affects actions around fidelity and infidelity more so than sexuality, gender and relationships status can alone. It also shapes my viewpoint and my particular opinion here, which by no means do I think is the objective truth on the matter.

d

[bityme]

Pappy i believe you misread what i wrote...Yes i stated it is not about traditional values but it IS about values...stating that cheating is about harming the relationship NOT telling them is just as bad as telling them. When it comes down to it and you find yourself talking to your partner about your desire to countermand the original agreements to the relationship then you have to take their opinions AND your own feelings into nature.

If your partner wants to maintain monogamy with you and you decide to break that monogamy and just not tell them at that point you are not honoring the relationship in any sense of the words. At that point you are no longer their partner though they are yours. Which means the relationship is selfish and more harmful...Eventually the truth will be learned and you are now wasting their lives. No matter how old the commitment is the commitment is still valid..When you try to renegotiate it you are doing the right thing but when your partner decides that they could not have the relationship you want it is your place to decide if betraying them means more to you then the commitment they expect from you.

I dont care if you are bisexual homosexual heterosexual or any other sexual you could think of this would be an act of betrayal beyond all others to yourself and to your partner. Know this the truth always comes out no matter how much you dont tell them or you hide it. The truth will always come lose.

I agree, it is about values. No matter what the source is. Whether it is an acceptance of the norm or some other agreement the parties reach, it is the commitment between them that counts. A violation of that commitment is viewed as "cheating." What I can't agree with is the position that the violation of the commitment must be viewed as "an act of betrayal beyond all others."

As far as sex is concerned, we also take as a given that providing each other with a sexual outlet is part of that commitment. A gentleman in another thread said he hasn't had sex with his wife in 10 years, yet he still has needs. If she is not willing to permit him to go elsewhere, your position condemns him as a "cheater" if he goes anyway. The wife who refuses to allow him freedom to find some release and also refuses him sexual access to her becomes the victim. Her refusal is not viewed as "cheating" yet it is also a violation of the commitment they had to each other.

Posts from others have maintained that his only recourse is to either honor the original commitment or to terminate the relationship. I can't agree that it must be that cut and dried.

If he seeks sexual companionship elsewhere, it is obvious that he risks being found out and ultimately a termination of the relationship is a possibility. It is also possible that he might not be found out. Whatever choice an individual makes in that position, I don't feel I have the right to condemn them.

Doesn't it seem odd, that if he just said "If you will no longer have sex with me, I want a divorce." no one would condemn him for the divorce. But if he has a fling he becomes the monster and destroyer of the relationship?

A divorce might be emotionally and financially devastating for the parties and their family. Is that the only way? I don't think so.

Call it "cheating" or whatever you want, but I cannot condemn someone who elects to try and preserve other aspects of a long-term relationship while seeking to have a portion of their needs satisfied elsewhere. Yes, they are taking a big chance that the devastation will occur anyway, but their desire to otherwise preserve the relationship should be given consideration.

Call it "cheating"? Sure, go ahead. Condemn them? In my opinion, No!

Pappy

[Gearbox]

^ Yes! I agree lovely sir!:)

I've rarely heard about any one who cheats to cause their partner harm. The ones I've met, or heard from on here seem to cheat to protect their partners. (What they don't know, can't harm them.)
I think it's a bit different for bisexuals too. Not only do they need their partner to accept non-monogamy to be ok, but also same gender sex too. Not easy if your just starting to explore same gender attraction yourself, and not sure what it's about. Or for the partner, who didn't sign up for either development.

Whatever sexualities involved, monogamy is no incentive for trust and honesty. Being monogamous doesn't need rules or punishments to enforce it. You either are or your not.
So IMO it is wise to forgo those rules at the very start of a relationship and encourage truthfulness at ANY stage.
There'd be far less 'cheaters' about if that were the case IMO.:)

[Rhevan]

Rhevan
I have misled you if you think that I do not care/love for people that I enter into a relationship. I have been in monogamous relationships both with men and women(or so I thought that they were monogamous but they cheated on me). The awkwardness when one of the people who have agreed to monogamy and shame that we get wound up in more or less makes me think that we place too much value on monogamy. There must be a better way than mainstream hetero morality by devising our own unique conditions for the relationship.

I've been a bisexual for quite awhile. I've loved and cared for many in relationships. If monogamy is for you, I wish you well. Do not assume that those of us who do not see it as the best lifestyle for bisexuals will insist that you be poly or closed loop(would be my preference but that is for me) I'm a spokesperson for myself. This is what I presently believe based on my life experiences and observations from posters on this and other bisexual sites. It may be more specific for bisexual men though?


"That is probably one of the most arrogant pieces of drivel I have ever seen posted anywhere. Did I miss the monthly meeting where they voted you as the spokesperson for bisexuals? Didn't think so. It's fine for you to speak for you, but you do not speak for me or many other bisexuals. We are allowed to make our own choices and our own mistakes in life. That is what strive to get other sexualities to let us do and you would try to take that right away? No, thank you. I am me and I am happy to be the way I am. I'm sorry that you are not happy with they way others are in this place but I would not make such blanket statements, I care about cheating, I care about people I have relationships with, I care."

Tenni, the problem with the original statement was your use of WE when saying bisexuals shouldn't care about cheating. I am sorry you had bad experiences but you must agree, just because something is right for you it might not be right for others and vice a versa. Why can't people just choose how to live their own lives without someone always condemning them for the choices they make? Keyword there...choices. We have a choice, it's up to the people involved in relationships to make their choice about the relationship and the boundaries therein, no one should condemn anyone else for any choice they make. I don't condemn you for being non monogamous, why should I be condemned for being monogamous? When you take away the right to choose you remove all the things we have fought so hard for over the years. Quite frankly the LGBT has more important battles to fight than over whether or not one or two bisexuals decide they know best for all bisexuals. The Kinsey scale contains very few absolutes, the rest are all varying degrees of bisexuality so how can there be only one way to enjoy a relationship? Just something to think about.

[dafydd]

^ Yes! I agree lovely sir!:)

I've rarely heard about any one who cheats to cause their partner harm. The ones I've met, or heard from on here seem to cheat to protect their partners. (What they don't know, can't harm them.)

unless they bring home a nasty STD...that'll harm. Nobody cheats out of consideration for their partner.

d

[Gearbox]

unless they bring home a nasty STD...that'll harm. Nobody cheats out of consideration for their partner.

d
What makes you think that?

[dafydd]

What makes you think that?

Because I can't imagine a situation in which someone would want their partner to cheat on them. Unless 'cheating' can be postive somehow. I can't think. Can you give some examples.?

Still ...
<empathy overdrive engaged>

Maybe if all you'd known were cheating partners, you might have normalised cheating and thought it a show of love and faith because u always come back to the one you really love...

or perhaps you might like the break-up/make-up rituals of a relationship which involved cheating, if you thought that the love and affirmation during the make-up was the best way of showing affection....

or "Breaking The Waves" style....that might happen.. your partner is paralysed and can never have sex with you again. He asks you to sleep with other people and tell him about it, so he can experience your sexuality vicariously through the x-rated reccounts. But that's not cheating, because it's authorised.

I'm really stretching it there, because I really think that the vast majority of people in relationships don't want their partners to cheat on them.
It's mean.

d

[Light_and_Dark]

I agree with you d...Being a guy that has been on the receiving end of cheating for my entire dating life trust me cheating HURTS the other partner...Like i said it WILL be found out eventually and if your partner was not willing to let you use that outlet before you did it then that is going to hurt them.

The act of cheating because your partner wont let you use that outlet is harmful to the other person....if it was not harmful then they would have let you do it.

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree, it is about values. No matter what the source is. Whether it is an acceptance of the norm or some other agreement the parties reach, it is the commitment between them that counts. A violation of that commitment is viewed as "cheating." What I can't agree with is the position that the violation of the commitment must be viewed as "an act of betrayal beyond all others."

As far as sex is concerned, we also take as a given that providing each other with a sexual outlet is part of that commitment. A gentleman in another thread said he hasn't had sex with his wife in 10 years, yet he still has needs. If she is not willing to permit him to go elsewhere, your position condemns him as a "cheater" if he goes anyway. The wife who refuses to allow him freedom to find some release and also refuses him sexual access to her becomes the victim. Her refusal is not viewed as "cheating" yet it is also a violation of the commitment they had to each other.

Posts from others have maintained that his only recourse is to either honor the original commitment or to terminate the relationship. I can't agree that it must be that cut and dried.

If he seeks sexual companionship elsewhere, it is obvious that he risks being found out and ultimately a termination of the relationship is a possibility. It is also possible that he might not be found out. Whatever choice an individual makes in that position, I don't feel I have the right to condemn them.

Doesn't it seem odd, that if he just said "If you will no longer have sex with me, I want a divorce." no one would condemn him for the divorce. But if he has a fling he becomes the monster and destroyer of the relationship?

A divorce might be emotionally and financially devastating for the parties and their family. Is that the only way? I don't think so.

Call it "cheating" or whatever you want, but I cannot condemn someone who elects to try and preserve other aspects of a long-term relationship while seeking to have a portion of their needs satisfied elsewhere. Yes, they are taking a big chance that the devastation will occur anyway, but their desire to otherwise preserve the relationship should be given consideration.

Call it "cheating"? Sure, go ahead. Condemn them? In my opinion, No!

Pappy

I have noticed something a lot... and no I am not having a go at you.....

most of the time when people talk about the need to satisfy sexual desires and how a partner is not * putting out *.... its near always the female that is the one that is * not putting out *...... what about the males that can not satisfy a female ( things like ED ), have you noticed that generally there is the reaction that there is other ways to satisfy her desires within the relationship ???.

how I know that, is in more cases, people will define the issue by gender.... not neutral terms......and it still comes across as its ok for males to cheat, but the female should be happy with what she gets at home or get a bob ( battery operated boyfriend )

[Coastocoast]

Being monogamous or choosing to have as many sexual encounters with as many different partners of either gender is a personal choice. It makes no difference to most people how you live your life unless you are in a relationship with a person and you are lying to them telling them they are the only one and they are not. Your deceit takes away your partner's choice if they desire and believe they are in a monogamous relationship and are not. Many people have found out the truth when the were told they had AIDS and did not understand how they and their partner had both tested neg, both were now positive and they had one sexual partner. Just be honest so both of you can make a choice including their option to leave you.

[bityme]

I have noticed something a lot... and no I am not having a go at you.....

most of the time when people talk about the need to satisfy sexual desires and how a partner is not * putting out *.... its near always the female that is the one that is * not putting out *...... what about the males that can not satisfy a female ( things like ED ), have you noticed that generally there is the reaction that there is other ways to satisfy her desires within the relationship ???.

how I know that, is in more cases, people will define the issue by gender.... not neutral terms......and it still comes across as its ok for males to cheat, but the female should be happy with what she gets at home or get a bob ( battery operated boyfriend )

LDD, I did not take it as you having a go at me. I agree with you. Gender should not make a difference. Admittedly, I did use a one-sided example which could have seemed misleading. In fact, I think it is probably even harder on the woman who's husband cannot perform.

I think that a woman is more likely to agree to her man going outside the relationship than a man. It is not uncommon for women to lose their sexual desire as different points like following childbirth, menopause, etc., and many women accept this as being the natural course of things.

When a man can't preform because of ED it is hard for them to accept. There is a tendency to feel less of a man (the old ego problem). He is apt to view the release of the wife to go outside as an advertisement of his inadequacy, revealing a problem he wants to keep private. He is also less apt to use alternatives like prosthetics, etc., and harder for him to understand that their use, plus the presence of continued tenderness in the relationship might be a satisfactory solution. In everything I have seen or read, men suffering ED have a greater tendency to cease activity that to seek solutions. Even consulting with a physician can be difficult.

When the sexual dynamics change in a relationship, communication and understanding offers the best solutions, particularly if both parties are loving and caring enough to want each others needs satisfied. In my experience, the change of sexual dynamics is second only to changes in financial dynamics as the cause of marital/relationship problems.

But when one of the parties refuses to discuss or agree to a modification of the rules when these dynamics have changed and the response boils down to "No, you promised." then "cheating," as risky as it might be, may be preferable to termination of the entire relationship or suffering in silence.

Pappy

[tenni]

Rhevan
I agree that it is all about choices. What is the better approaches for a bisexual is what I am trying to address. (in particular bi men)

In post 5, I made my first statement using the pronoun we. I asked a question "why are we expected to promise monogamy? Heterosexual morality." You seem to think that I am not permitted to ask a question on behalf of bisexuals..particularly bi men? In post 13, I do state that we should not promote monogamy amongst ourselves. Perhaps, I was wrong to use the pronoun "we". I do believe that bisexuals should discuss and promote other options outside of monogamy. You and some others seem to think that monogamy is the best way to live as a bisexual and then get upset with those bisexual (usually bi men) who can not live up to your mainstream expectation? That seems like circular logic to me?

If you are a bisexual and you have chosen a monogamous lifestyle, that is your choice. You are part of the majority in society who hold monogamy as the best way to live. If it works for you, fine. The reality of it working for a bisexual is unknown but there are sufficient bisexual men who do find it very difficult. Why are other options outside of monogamy not promoted more positively on this site? ( ie closed looped, poly, fuck buddy, etc. relationships) Why are ways of living outside the mainstream monogamy not discussed more positively?(One poster states because they don't work. Well, no wonder if these discussions are a model).

The GLBT community may have more important battles and you may believe that options outside of monogamy are not important. Those who primarily speak on behalf of GLBT are rarely bisexual men involved with women and men. I believe that other choices involving agreements outside of monogamy are of prime importance for bisexual men in particular. I will leave it to bisexual women to explore their thoughts but based on what I have read and bimen that I have met monogamy doesn't work for us for a lifetime.

I agree that there is more than one way to live as a bisexual man. Why not promote options beyond monogamy for bisexual men and women? What is your reluctance to promote such approaches? You seem to try to turn who is the minority here? Monogamous people who promote that lifestyle are not the (oppressed?) minority in the mainstream nor this so called bisexual site.


Tenni, the problem with the original statement was your use of WE when saying bisexuals shouldn't care about cheating. I am sorry you had bad experiences but you must agree, just because something is right for you it might not be right for others and vice a versa. Why can't people just choose how to live their own lives without someone always condemning them for the choices they make? Keyword there...choices. We have a choice, it's up to the people involved in relationships to make their choice about the relationship and the boundaries therein, no one should condemn anyone else for any choice they make. I don't condemn you for being non monogamous, why should I be condemned for being monogamous? When you take away the right to choose you remove all the things we have fought so hard for over the years. Quite frankly the LGBT has more important battles to fight than over whether or not one or two bisexuals decide they know best for all bisexuals. The Kinsey scale contains very few absolutes, the rest are all varying degrees of bisexuality so how can there be only one way to enjoy a relationship? Just something to think about.

[ErosUrge]

Tenni, the problem with the original statement was your use of WE when saying bisexuals shouldn't care about cheating. I am sorry you had bad experiences but you must agree, just because something is right for you it might not be right for others and vice a versa. Why can't people just choose how to live their own lives without someone always condemning them for the choices they make? Keyword there...choices. We have a choice, it's up to the people involved in relationships to make their choice about the relationship and the boundaries therein, no one should condemn anyone else for any choice they make. I don't condemn you for being non monogamous, why should I be condemned for being monogamous? When you take away the right to choose you remove all the things we have fought so hard for over the years. Quite frankly the LGBT has more important battles to fight than over whether or not one or two bisexuals decide they know best for all bisexuals. The Kinsey scale contains very few absolutes, the rest are all varying degrees of bisexuality so how can there be only one way to enjoy a relationship? Just something to think about.

I was going to post quotes from AeonPax and Tenni before reading Rhevan's reply. Though Tenni may come off as appearing to try to be the spokesperson for all of bisexuality, I don't think that's the case at all. It certainly can seem that way, but after reading so many of his posts, I know that isn't the case. AeonPax's comments were very willing to show acceptance for the various opinions though she might not prescribe to living the way others do herself.

All of us has our own experience to bring to the discussion and I would hope that we would remember that our volunteering to discuss openly our thoughts and feelings on any given subject is a matter of sharing. If someone is in fact dictating how all of us should live as bisexuals or whatever your sexuality, then I understand the backlash.

I remember so well in one of my two marriages saying to myself that I would remain monogamous and not ever succumb to the urges of sex with the same sex again. But it did not happen and I lived in such self-loathing until I dealt with it once and for all and accepted not only that I was bi but incapable of devoting myself sexually to only one person regardless of what sex they were for the rest of my life.

Like many others have already pointed out to infinitum that if one chooses monogamy and can adhere to living that way, good for you.

I think what bothers anyone is when someone advocates that monogamy is superior to any other way of living. And equally ridiculous as far as I'm concerned is anyone stating that polyamory is superior to monogamy. Both points of view and experience have their own merits and qualities for whichever person and is why they have chosen that path. So who am I to say which way is better? I can only speak for myself.

But again, these are only choices and opinions and should be remembered as such. If anyone who makes comments here believes their ideas and statements apply to everyone, then they are the one's stuck in the illusion of self righteousness. I may agree or disagree strongly, but only as it applies to my way of living or thinking; it does not apply to everyone.

I do agree that once one makes a commitment to be monogamous one should keep to that. But if for whatever reason it turns out not to be that way, then the one who could not manage to stay that way shouldn't be condemned. I myself have endured many relationships where I expected monogamy and my lovers at that time were not able to. Though it hurt me greatly at the time, it is what it is/was.

There are those who chose monogamy and then later in life realized this was not what they wanted or who they were/are. And there are those who chose polyamory or an open lifestyle to choose monogamy later in life...it's amazing the variations that we are as human beings. And of course there are those who know from the start they are monogamous and stay that way all their lives as do those who know from the start they are not monogamous and remain that way all their lives.

I will say that I am in agreement quite often with Tenni when it comes to points made about the negative slant toward anyone who is not monogamous. I am not speaking of those who premeditate this behavior and live hiding the truth from someone who thinks they are being monogamous...not at all. And I don't think Tenni is either.

As I have said so many times before concerning these matters in other posts, I feel that if we could somehow accept each other's thoughts or at least disagree without feeling we have to go on attack mode, we could all get along much better.

[Gearbox]

Because I can't imagine a situation in which someone would want their partner to cheat on them. Unless 'cheating' can be postive somehow. I can't think. Can you give some examples.?

Still ...
<empathy overdrive engaged>

Maybe if all you'd known were cheating partners, you might have normalised cheating and thought it a show of love and faith because u always come back to the one you really love...

or perhaps you might like the break-up/make-up rituals of a relationship which involved cheating, if you thought that the love and affirmation during the make-up was the best way of showing affection....

or "Breaking The Waves" style....that might happen.. your partner is paralysed and can never have sex with you again. He asks you to sleep with other people and tell him about it, so he can experience your sexuality vicariously through the x-rated reccounts. But that's not cheating, because it's authorised.

I'm really stretching it there, because I really think that the vast majority of people in relationships don't want their partners to cheat on them.
It's mean.

d
Some find that even though they love their partner, they have sexual needs that they just can't meet, but need fulfilling and intend to fulfil them.
They can obviously inform their partner about it, but not all do.
But why? That's the $64,000 question that has lots of answers.
For some it's because their in a monogamous relationship with a person they love and fear loosing due to not being understood etc etc etc.
So for some, 'cheating' is a way to keep their partner and get their sexual needs met at the same time.
As long as they don't get caught!:rolleyes:

Nobody is claiming that's a wonderful solution! Nor that it's the same for all that cheat. But 'cheating' isn't a definite sign of lovelessness nor selfishness etc.
Forgiving a 'cheater' isn't a sign of a warped emotional fetish either.:bigrin:

[tenni]

Rhevan View Post
Tenni, the problem with the original statement was your use of WE when saying bisexuals shouldn't care about cheating.

One more point on this sentence that I may not have clarified. I don't think that a site on bisexuality should care about cheating because I think that we should promote other options over /beside/instead of monogamy. You can not cheat if you do not promise a monogamous relationship. If a promise on sexual activity needs to be made develop other promises. Those that a capable of being bi and in a monogamous relationship may have issues they want to discuss but so do bisexuals who find it near impossible to promise monogamy.

Let me turn this back to you Rhevan. What do you think that a bisexual man who is not going to promise monogamy should promise partner(s)(male and/or female)?

Then we may get away from all the fanatically over emphasis on "cheating" when it should not be a priority during bisexual discussions. (unless a bisexual did make a monogamous promise..poor bugger:( )

[ErosUrge]

Rhevan View Post
Tenni, the problem with the original statement was your use of WE when saying bisexuals shouldn't care about cheating.

One more point on this sentence that I may not have clarified. I don't think that a site on bisexuality should care about cheating because I think that we should promote other options over /beside/instead of monogamy. You can not cheat if you do not promise a monogamous relationship. If a promise on sexual activity needs to be made develop other promises.

Let me turn this back to you Rhevan. What do you think that a bisexual man who is not going to promise monogamy should promise partner(s)(male and/or female)?

Then we may get away from all the fanatically over emphasis on "cheating" when it should not be a priority during bisexual discussions. (unless a bisexual did make a monogamous promise..poor bugger)

hmmm....I like the challenge Tenni though it's not directed at me. But were it I, my answer would be that I would promise to love that person completely if I knew I loved that person that much...though I could not promise myself physically that way, this much I could....what else is there? Isn't this what loving someone really is?....just a thought and my feelings...

[Rhevan]

Tenni,

This is not about sexualities it's about people in general. So to your question about a bisexual male, I say instead "Person". What should a person promise another in a relationship if they can't be monogamous? Whatever they can hold true to. Fidelity is not just about sexual relations, it's a way of being true to yourself and partner. I am not promoting monogamy but I am not slamming it either, I have lived both ways in my life and I'm sure I will again before I leave this Earth.

I have been in groups where everyone was ecstatic, I have been in groups where everyone was unhappy. I have been in solo partnerships where life was great, I have been in solo relationships where on some nights, I always wanted to go back to poly because at least then I might have an orgasm.

But why can't the issue just die if we all agree no one has the right to tell another the way they live is wrong? Why must it be done and done and done when in the end the result is the same. You are free to live your life, I am free to live mine, the other posters are free to live theirs. There are only two things certain in this life, death and taxes, everything else is up for grabs.

[Long Duck Dong]

over the years I have been in the site I have noticed something interesting.....

it is the references to having relationships with married people and I am not seeing that stance mentioned in this thread... I am referring, to the reasoning that if more people are non monogamous, that there would be less issues if people are having relations with people behind their partners back......

part of the issue is that the partner that has no idea what is going on, may find out, and seek revenge by way of revealing the truth of what has been going on, to other people

this carries a extra threat to people that have a sexuality that is hidden from others and their desire to remain hidden in regards to their desires....
it is a aspect of cheating and infidelity that we often do not address, I would assume its cos we are too busy talking about the partners and how they need to talk and not really addressing the issues that can arise when a partner finds out the partner they have trusted and believed in, has been dishonest.....

a number of times I have watched people react aggressively and blame the *3rd* person for the infidelity that has occurred in the relationship.... it can be a defense reaction, it can be blame laying, it can be for a number of reasons........

being a closeted sexuality in a relationship can be hard on anybody... and when the *3rd * person is also closeted, there is the extra risk and danger of being outted themselves.......

part of a open relationship can be a * DADT * arrangement ( don't ask, don't tell ) where the partner knows about the extra martial wanderings but has no interest in knowing about who and when....... and for closeted people that can have a added advantage of keeping their own secret safe when they are the *3rd * person .......

I know in the site that there are a number of married discreet / closeted people that seek the same.... and it made me curious about the single discreet / closeted people that want to be with other people and do not want the risk / complications of having a married person being unfaithful to their partner and the flow on effect of being outted themselves......

[bigi56]

Interesting to see the intensity of the replys to this topic.

We cheat.

But who do we owe a duty to?

I owe a duty to me first. I live once. I want to try certain things. Do I need to give up something to get something?

I don't want to hurt anyone, but I am who I am.

That's the fact jack.

[Pasadenacpl2]

So, you don't want to hurt anyone, but you are what you are: a cheater.

Gotcha.

Being in a committed relationship means you owe duty to them before yourself. That is regardless of gender or sexuality. Regardless of how many people you are in that relationship with. It means being a part of something bigger than yourself. You owe a duty to you first? Really? How utterly selfish. I hope you are hung, because what you describe says you can't see beyond your own penis.

That's the fact, Jack.

Pasa

[Gearbox]

So, you don't want to hurt anyone, but you are what you are: a cheater.

Gotcha.

Being in a committed relationship means you owe duty to them before yourself. That is regardless of gender or sexuality. Regardless of how many people you are in that relationship with. It means being a part of something bigger than yourself. You owe a duty to you first? Really? How utterly selfish. I hope you are hung, because what you describe says you can't see beyond your own penis.

That's the fact, Jack.

Pasa
Why the venom? And how can a petty rule in a relationship be bigger than the one life he has to explore himself?

Nobody owns his cock but him. Nobody is responsible for him, but him.
He maybe a great loving partner to somebody who wouldn't understand that? The act of sex with another may cause her/him to think he has no feelings for them, and end what really is a loving relationship?
Who knows? He might be a nice bloke after all?:)

[Long Duck Dong]

Why the venom? And how can a petty rule in a relationship be bigger than the one life he has to explore himself?

Nobody owns his cock but him. Nobody is responsible for him, but him.
He maybe a great loving partner to somebody who wouldn't understand that? The act of sex with another may cause her/him to think he has no feelings for them, and end what really is a loving relationship?
Who knows? He might be a nice bloke after all?:)

nods I agree gearbox... he is responsible for himself.... but you and me both know that if he was to go outside of the relationship without his partners knowledge... that his partner would be blamed most of the time for it.......

it does amuse me the way that we talk about our rights, our freedom of choice and our right to exercise our rights... but when we do... we make others responsible for our actions......

if our partners give permission for us to take other partners and it all goes wrong.... why do we not blame them then ?????

[Coastocoast]

The freedom of choice means you have the right to do as you please so long as you do not step on the rights of others. Your partner relies on you to tell the truth so do it even if it means telling them you intend to see others. They then have the right to walk on you and you both have your own choices.

[bityme]

It is so very intriguing to watch the varied responses and the nuances being discussed in this thread. The oddest part is the automatic assumption that any individuals in a committed relationship have agreed to a lifetime of utter and unalterable monogamy.

Honestly, I have never met a couple that actually revealed they had discussed such alternatives ahead of time or even the possibility that the dynamics of their relationship might change over time.

Even as open as my fiancee and I have been with each other, there have been several issues raised here that we had never touched on. This thread alone has given us several hours of conversation about the "what if" factors we see being raised.

I wonder how often relationships have crumbled because of claimed violations of the parties commitment to each other when no such thing actually existed. Instead, the parties had made assumptions about the terms of their commitment or the rules they agreed to live by just because they used the "L" or "M" words (love & marriage). Of course, the problem is further complicated by they many so-called societal norms that so many cling to as being included in those two little words. Thus "love & marriage" seems to be automatically interpreted to include express statements of honesty, fidelity, attentiveness, consideration, acquiescence, compliance, "you are more important than I am," "forsaking all others (even when not actually included in the marriage vows)," etc.

Isn't it amazing how statements like "I love you," "You are all I will ever need in life," "You are my one and only," etc., during courtship seem to take on a broader, deeper life of their own as the years pass. Yet in our starry-eyed, love-struck moments the subject of "What will we do, or how will we handle things if the dynamics of our relationship change as time passes?" is never something that is thoughtfully discussed ahead of time. It's no wonder we are always mentioning the need for ever greater communication between us as we enter serious relationships.

I'm beginning to question how often someone is claimed to have violated a commitment and labeled a "cheater" when the action they took was not, in fact, a failure to comply with an express term of an agreement, but instead a departure from one of the assumed duties never actually discussed or negotiated.

Just a thought!

Pappy

[Long Duck Dong]

bityme, the trouble with that, you would need a 40 page list of definations defining what covers what actions, how and where, with who and why.......

marriage is seen as a union between two people.... in a way, saying I have chosen you over all others, I love you more than any other..... tho, for a lot of people today, a marriage is not the vows of love and devotion that it once used to be..... thank you britney spears for assisting in proving that

a lot of the issue with cheating is not so much the cheating, its the lies and deceit that was done, that I have found a lot of people have the bigger issue with... the sex with other people may have been able to be forgiven, but the lies and betrayal of trust is something I have noticed, rates higher on a list of * wrongs * than sex with others..... ( may have to do a poll on it :tong: )

some people view marriage as a commitment of monogamy, others don't.....and the wording of standard marriage vows is as vague in meaning as bill clintons * I did not have sexual relations with that woman *

defining what is cheating and what is not, is a dammed site easier to define for some people, than what is acceptable in the way of lies to a partner......

another part of the issue is sure a declaration of monogamy was not made, but nor was consent asked or or given, to have other partners.... so it goes both ways

[void()]

Our Perspective

Wife knew prior to marriage about sexuality. Still married me.
After about a year together subject of external lovers broached. She asked to be given time for considering it. Five years later she comes to me and says it is okay but we need it defined. We concluded our guidelines.

She's also free to have external lovers, has and will again according to her discretion. We really do not talk about our time with other lovers. May discuss things in general terms but we've agreed upon respecting each other's privacy, as well as the external lover's. But we are both honest and open with one another.

"Honey, I'm going to spend time with Joe Smith. Will call and give you means to reach me in case of emergency, expected time of return."

And we come home to one another. We do not see this as cheating. It is something we have agreed on. Further, we have agreed to try avoid getting involved with others whom we suspect of cheating. Our gestalt being "we don't cheat nor help others cheat", because it only seems proper that if we offer respect, trust to each other it is given to others, we expect it in return.

Society at large though does not seem to grasp this, so we prefer keeping quiet outwardly. It saves hassle, drama. Not our natures to have those in our lives. And no we do not play together. For those guys whom when speaking to me here ask "can I meet her?" As I noted earlier, that's at her discretion. You are talking to me, not her. She chooses not being active here.
Says she meets lots of jerks. I do as well, obviously.

[Gearbox]

nods I agree gearbox... he is responsible for himself.... but you and me both know that if he was to go outside of the relationship without his partners knowledge... that his partner would be blamed most of the time for it.......

it does amuse me the way that we talk about our rights, our freedom of choice and our right to exercise our rights... but when we do... we make others responsible for our actions......

if our partners give permission for us to take other partners and it all goes wrong.... why do we not blame them then ?????
The partner being blamed for being cheated on is something I've very rarely heard. It's usually the 'cheater' that gets the judgements, even though all the info that's needed is the act of cheating. Nothing else.

What amuses me about 'freedom' is that it's sometimes up for negotiation between two 'lovers'. 'Cheaters' seem to view their freedom and rights as non-negotiable and take responsibility to live their 'sex life' as they see fit, while their 'love life' remains separate. Maybe they have a point there?

Blaming partners for a bad sex with other people has no use.:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

The partner being blamed for being cheated on is something I've very rarely heard. It's usually the 'cheater' that gets the judgements, even though all the info that's needed is the act of cheating. Nothing else.

What amuses me about 'freedom' is that it's sometimes up for negotiation between two 'lovers'. 'Cheaters' seem to view their freedom and rights as non-negotiable and take responsibility to live their 'sex life' as they see fit, while their 'love life' remains separate. Maybe they have a point there?

Blaming partners for a bad sex with other people has no use.:bigrin:

I was refering to the " my partner is not interested in sex, they do not understand, they would not accept it " type remarks......

you do have a point with the freedom.... and how cheaters seem to view their freedom as non negotiable .... my ex partner was of the opinion, that her right to cheat was non negotiable..... but god help me if I was not there when she got home and how dare I tell her to leave her home ( she was not on the lease so in essense, she was there cos I allowed it......)

freedom is interesting in that freedom for a person is a personal understanding and choice, and when you involve another in your life, then there is a need for compromise.... which is not always possible...... and thats where things can become one sided, with cheaters making statements like I should not have to compromise my freedom to do as I want to...... which is fine.... but its the denial of the rights of the partner that is the part that is interesting......
" I have the right to have sex with others if my partner will not have sex with me or allow me to have sex with others, but I need to be discreet cos if they find out, they will leave and I can not allow them to exercise that right as it doesn't fit in with what I want in my life *.....

I always thought a partner was a *WE * situation not a *ME* and the other person situation.......

either way, it doesn't really worry me or affect me as I am not the person that runs the risk of being caught and finding that hell knows no fury like a partner realising the person they love, is not the person they thought they were in love with........

incidently for me, it was not the fact that my ex partner was having sex with other people that really pissed me off... it was the idea that I was the one that was working my ass off, getting home at 10 pm at home and being expected to cook dinner, make coffees and pay her bills, buy her clothes and treat her like a princess and then be told that my feelings, thoughts and opinions did not matter, but how dare I talk to other people and have friends....... and that was mainly cos if I talked to other people, the truth about her would come out.... not that she was a slut, but the way she treated people like shit.......

that is a aspect of cheating, that most people never think about.... the way the other person is treated.... and thats a aspect of cheating for which there is no excuse......

[Gearbox]

that is a aspect of cheating, that most people never think about.... the way the other person is treated.... and thats a aspect of cheating for which there is no excuse......
That has nothing to do with cheating. Your ex was a bad partner whether she cheated or not, by the sounds of it.
I had an ex like that (only much worse.). But she never cheated. She was happy just being a bitch to me.:(
Being a bitch/dick partner is an aspect of being a bitch/dick person though, and some couldn't separate sex&love, because they got no love to separate. Just control and dominance!:eek:

Nope! 'Cheaters' don't treat people and partners like crap. Not all of them anyway. Otherwise they'd be a damn sight easier to spot.:rolleyes:
(Not saying all should hire PI's just in case!lol).

[Long Duck Dong]

That has nothing to do with cheating. Your ex was a bad partner whether she cheated or not, by the sounds of it.
I had an ex like that (only much worse.). But she never cheated. She was happy just being a bitch to me.:(
Being a bitch/dick partner is an aspect of being a bitch/dick person though, and some couldn't separate sex&love, because they got no love to separate. Just control and dominance!:eek:

Nope! 'Cheaters' don't treat people and partners like crap. Not all of them anyway. Otherwise they'd be a damn sight easier to spot.:rolleyes:
(Not saying all should hire PI's just in case!lol).

my ex lied to me constantly to cover her tracks..... that was a lot to do with her cheating........ not all bad partners lie and cheat....

btw cheaters do not treat people and partners like crap ???? I am a lil confused by that..... and I am basing that around the actions of my ex and her lies and betrayal of trust, lack of consideration and respect in regards to the cheating......

so can you show me where cheaters are not treating people and partners like crap ??? and how you define that....cos I think I am not seeing something you are..... and I think you are referring to cheaters that are discreet and never lie to their partners, ......which is possible to do, if you narrow it right down to statements that are made between the partners about love etc and not statements like you are the only one I want to be with......

[Long Duck Dong]

I remember a while ago... something that was posted in the site about people that refused to go out with bisexuals and how they were being bi phobic....

it reminded me of something I posted about once, a bi male friend of mine that was getting shitty cos females he liked, would not get involved with him... and sure he raved on and on about it..... so i asked a couple of the ladies, what the issue was with him... and the answer was not that he was bisexual, it was the sense of entitlement that was the issue....

its something that I am seeing in this thread.... the sense of entitlement, not actually the sexuality......

[Gearbox]

so can you show me where cheaters are not treating people and partners like crap ??? and how you define that....cos I think I am not seeing something you are..... and I think you are referring to cheaters that are discreet and never lie to their partners, ......which is possible to do, if you narrow it right down to statements that are made between the partners about love etc and not statements like you are the only one I want to be with......
If 'being lied to' is 'being treated like crap' to you, then ALL cheaters treat partners like crap, in your eyes. Also the vast majority of partners in general too, as very few are 100% honest, 100% of the time.:rolleyes:
I doubt many inform their partners every time somebody else gets them horny. Or report who they were masturbating to orgasm about.lol
Isn't that deceitful? Surely the sexual activity of partners must be reported to each other at all times 24/7?
Is that just a private healthy sexual mentality/release that is personal and maybe tactful to not disclose, OR does it only count when skin touches skin?

Maybe something magical happens when skin touches skin that transforms personal and private sexual release into a full disclosure activity?
Somebody else is involved. Somebody else was always involved, but this time in a physical sense.:tongue:
But even though it's physical, it's still only a sexual release, same as a wank in that regard. That can be 100% certain in the 'cheaters' mind, but not necessarily to the partner.
So for the exact same reasons for not reporting their wanking activity, they don't report their sex activity.;)
Doesn't make them bad people IMO.

its something that I am seeing in this thread.... the sense of entitlement, not actually the sexuality.....
You have concerns about 'cheaters' feeling entitled to 'cheat'? Or monogamist feeling entitled to condemn them for it?

[darkeyes]

If 'being lied to' is 'being treated like crap' to you, then ALL cheaters treat partners like crap, in your eyes. Also the vast majority of partners in general too, as very few are 100% honest, 100% of the time.:rolleyes:


Take it from one who has cheated.. fucking around behind your partner's back is treating them with both contempt and as a lump of shite... you can try and rationalise it all u like to make it sound acceptable.. but it is treating them like so much crap.. it has nothing to do with monogamy or being monosexual.. if there is no acceptance by a partner or partners that straying the nest is fine.. it is cheating..those in multi partner relationships fuck around too.. ergo.. cheatin is treating the trusting innocent partner like shite.. they may not know it and may never know it.. that doesnt change a thing about what it is...

[Long Duck Dong]

gearbox

I was not thinking of wanking or anything,... I was questioning what you met by not all cheaters treat their partners like crap... and I would agree, definition of cheating would play a large part in that.....

I could not go off with another person, then come home and look my partner in the eye and act as if nothing happened.... and its not anything to do with monogamy, its the idea that I have gone outside of the relationship and never given them the chance to have any input and as my partner, they have a right to a say, just the same as I would, if the roles were reversed.....

the sense of entitlement, I was referring to in regards to sex.... as in a sense that a person is entitled to have sex when they want it.... and they should not be denied sex or the right to have sex....

I have noticed that most often in this site, its males that will make statements like that.......and thats normally hand in hand with statements like " my wife will not / can not have sex, so I am entitled to have sex with others if shes not having sex with me "

stuff like that doesn't worry me.... cos its not my relationship.... but I have noticed its one of the things that people will say about bisexuals and often its one of the remarks that many bisexuals state, is not true........

I know its a situation thats not just a bisexual thing cos I know a number of hetero males that have the same attitude, but what I have noticed with them is the remarks like " god help the missus if she fucks another guy " and when i have said " same rules mate, shes playing by the same rules " the reaction is normally " shes fucked if she does "

the same rules thing is what I apply to my relationship.....
1) don't play by rules that you will not let ya partner play by

[tenni]

One thing that disturbs me about this site are excessive judgmental posters who spend a large amount of posts condemning others for their lifestyle choices when they are not personally involved with those bisexuals.

What is their point in posting? Is it the be "correct" using mainstream heterosexual values or just to be piously preachy?

If you are not in a relationship with a specific bisexual, it is none of your fucking business whether they are faithful to a partner or not. (double entendre about "fucking business" intended :tong:) Such posters seem be arguing to be moralistically "right". It is almost as if those monogamous (bisexuals?) feel ashamed of the bisexuals who need sex with both genders. If a poster doesn't want/need sex with both genders, fine go live your life and myob.

I personally believe that there is a difference between a bisexual wanting/needing sex with a person who is of the same gender while in a relationship with a cross gender person and a person wanting sex with a person of the same gender as their partner. If you do not, live your life as a monosexual and let those bisexuals who need both genders resolve their own way of living.

It does this site no good to divide those that wish to be or can be monogamous from those of us who chose not to be monogamous or can not be monogamous due to their bisexual needs.

I believe that this site could do far better to discuss what positive approaches bisexuals might take when dealing with our sexuality of being sexually attracted to both genders and wanting/needing sex with both genders.

[darkeyes]

That's the Tenni we all know an luff.. brutal an the point.

If ur best mate nicked 100 bucks out of ur wallet and ya nev noticed would u consider urself cheated? I know ya wouldnt cos ya wudnt notice it was missin'.. but is it stealin' and is ur m8 cheatin u outa ya hard earned dosh? Wotya think tenni me luffly?

Or ifya m8 told a lie 2 ya boss so he cud getya job an ya nev found out wy u got the sack, is that cheatin?

Ifya lover's m8 told a lie 2 ur lover that u had been puttin it bout wiv
'is/'er worst enemy an that lover pissed off inta the sunset nev 2 been seen again.. anya nev found out wy.. is that cheatin'?

Or put it another way.. put yasel in the place of the m8's an the others wer u wer? All fair in luff an war? Or Cheatin'?

[tenni]

darkeyes
Well, what I am trying to do is to get the entire discussion to move away from judging others and discuss bisexual needs and how best to include them in our lives. Therefore, I have no interest in determining whether some act is cheating or not. Does that make any sense to you?

I'd rather discuss ideas as I stated already when I asked if a bisexual can not/should not(my preference) promise monogamy to any potential lover what can we promise?

I think that is a more positive approach than determining moralistic aspects of the word that I'd rather not write (it seems to make some posters froth at the mouth..:tong:)

So, what if you wish to write that bisexuals who can not be monogamous are cheaters? What benefit does that have for any bisexual reading these thoughts? I don't see much except to make some of us feel shitty and unworthy. It helps no bisexual to declare them as cheaters.

As to my own question about what should/can a bisexual promise other than monogamy, I recall Euro stating something about loving them completely. Well, there are a lot of divorces that end up maybe making that promise a failed promise? I guess that that he'd be a cheater...lol Or can you have sex with others (same gender) and still love a person completely is another question? I do agree with Gear about the idea that there is merit in separating sex from love. Many men can do this. It may be more of a female flaw that some can not...(kid'n)

What I think that I would promise other than monogamy are such statements about informing my partner if I needed sex outside the relationship is a more positive approach. There is a lot of "value" adjustment needed within bisexual discussions and then perhaps mainstream society to reduce the belief structure that monogamy is THE WAY.

btw It seems to me that some of your examples were dealing with deceit rather than monogamy? I agree that if we could get rid of feeling that we need to deceive others inorder to survive it would be good. Honesty is the best but you need to feel comfortable & safe before some can be honest.

[void()]

"One thing that disturbs me about this site are excessive judgmental posters who spend a large amount of posts condemning others for their lifestyle choices when they are not personally involved with those bisexuals.

What is their point in posting? Is it the be "correct" using mainstream heterosexual values or just to be piously preachy?

Honesty is the best but you need to feel comfortable & safe before some can be honest."


When posting I seek to not be judgmental. However, there does exist right and wrong. Deceiving others, especially ones you've claimed to love, seems quite wrong to me. In posting I hope to convey one method which seems to work for us, it may work for others, it may not. I never presume nor state our way is the only or correct way.

Your last sentence hits the nail squarely. And being comfortable and safe are a result of being honest, open and communicating. In effect, a result of love. This often requires more than a one night stand, a commitment. To get trust, you give it and the same with respect. A way to offer these gifts to others is being open, honest and communicating.

I understand your idea of pulling sex away from love. It is right for some, right for different situations. Yet I feel once one engages in committing to another, then one must oblige keeping love and sex together. And I concede this is something each person must decide upon their own. Have never not conceded this. Once the decision is made, then it falls to deception or honesty and herein lies the crux of a quagmire which cause apparent rifts of arguments here.

Until now, hopefully. I have articulated our view/s as fully and best able. All the standard disclaimers apply and anyone is free to use or leave as they choose, for they will. Beyond this, nothing more to say except to ask you not confuse balance with being pious and preachy. It's like me calling you stupid.

[darkeyes]

Honesty is the best but you need to feel comfortable & safe before some can be honest.

Have nev understood this safe thing wiv u Tenni... not as if ne 1 is gonna come an shootya as ya tap away at the keyboard... an comfortable?? Maybe comfy in ya chair... but not I think in debate.. debate, especially debate about uncomfortable and controversial issues is not about comfortable...;)

[tenni]

Void
"And being comfortable and safe are a result of being honest, open and communicating. In effect, a result of love. This often requires more than a one night stand, a commitment. To get trust, you give it and the same with respect. A way to offer these gifts to others is being open, honest and communicating."

I agree with you Void to a point. Sometimes, one night stands may be more honest and open in communicating "needs" than forty year marriages...:bigrin: If there is a one night stand, I don't think that "love" enters into that "relationship". The purpose of a one night stand perhaps should not be in the same paragraph as commenting on "love". It may be more beneficial for bisexuals discussing fidelity to separate monogamy and love from sexual acts with same sex people.

"Yet I feel once one engages in committing to another, then one must oblige keeping love and sex together."

Perhaps, Void, you will expand upon the above statement?

From my perspective, for a bisexual, I see you introducing "love" and poly relationships. A bi man may love and have sex with a female and may love and have sex with a male. That "closed loop relationship" may be the most beneficial relationship for some bisexuals. For those bisexuals who are capable of being emotionally and sexually attracted to both genders.

How then is a bisexual man to deal with physical sexual and emotional attraction to a female but need physical sex with another male? It seems to me that his female partner must accept that he both loves and is sexually attracted to her but sexually attracted to men as well. That is outside of traditional monogamy as well. It seems to me that it requires quite the pool of either bisexual women or hetero women who can accept this style of relationship. It flies as a contradiction to mainstream hetero monogamous morality and needs altering. If not by the mainstream then an acceptance within society that such people are not wrong or evil. The person being invited to have a relationship with a bisexual needs to be psychologically capable of going outside of mainstream beliefs.

btw I admire the relationship that you have with your wife. I suspect that it took some time to evolve.

[tenni]

darkeyes
I do not feel safe and comfortable enough here to comment on why I don't feel safe. :rotate:

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni,

No one has condemned anyone for having sex outside of an otherwise 'mono' relationship. Sure, people have needs. Bisexuals have differing needs. I think we all agree on that.

Where the condemnation comes in is in trying to meet those needs without telling your partner. I don't care how you rationalize it. If you have sex with someone outside of your relationship, and you didn't inform your partner, you are wrong.

As Void said: There is right, and there is wrong. Those things don't change with our sexuality. Moral relativism is to be avoided.

Pasa

[dave98106]

This seems to fit into this discussion...*


Should I care if I'm hooking up with a guy who is cheating on his partner?

I think that ideally those in a relationship should be completely open with each other. But I really don't have a say in how the people in a relationship behave.

I try to not intentionally do anything that will make someone else legitimately feel wronged. But the husband who is looking to secretly fool around with another guy isn't going to not do it because he can't hook up with me. He'll find some other guy.

If I were in a committed relationship we'd have gone over all the ground rules before the relationship. But assuming we hadn't and I was cheated on I wouldn't really care about the guy/gal my gal/guy cheated on me with. My issue would be with my partner.

I don't believe that if I'm involved in someone else's naughtiness that some bad thing will come my way.

Though a guy who'll cheat on his wife could be a complete lowlife I don't think that's always (or maybe even generally) the case. So it's not a matter of "Would you really want to fool around with that sort of human?"

I'm not looking for justifications to hook up with married guys. I don't get any special thrill from the idea that the guy might be married. In fact it's always been the opposite. I've never wanted to knowingly be part of a guy fooling around on his wife/girlfriend. But I'm not so committed to that ideal as to make sure all my hook ups aren't partnered.

So, why should I care if the guy I'm fooling around with is fooling around on his wife?


*If it doesn't or there's an existing thread where it does fit I apologize.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
I do not feel safe and comfortable enough here to comment on why I don't feel safe. :rotate:

..and that babes is a monumental cop out on ur part, and besides I do not believe it for a minute except for possibly that u are neither comfortable or safe with someone contradicting and taking issue with you... and even then I have me doubts such is the oft confrontational style you have shown in thread after thread... it is, in short, Tenni me luffly, in the humble opinion of me poor lil self... an excuse and intended as part of your argument to create a two tier site an 2 cast non bisexual members of .com into the wilderness...

[darkeyes]

.

So, why should I care if the guy I'm fooling around with is fooling around on his wife?




U will, if he, or she has been puttin it 'bout irresponsibly behind 'er back an ya end up wiv summat nasty an pass it on 2 sum 1 else.. not trying 2 scare.. just sayin it dus happen... but not 2 u hey?;)

[tenni]

darkeyes
It is your right to make "cop out" comments without all of the information. You, on the other hand, have not been temporarily banned (yet) for speaking out while you felt your beliefs were being attacked by posters who have no ability to comprehend the issues.

[bityme]

I understand your idea of pulling sex away from love. It is right for some, right for different situations.

I feel this concept is essential for anyone to engage with others sexually outside of their relationship. Whether it is swinging together or giving one another hall passes. If "love" plays a part of the activities with the additional partners it has the potential of disaster.


Yet I feel once one engages in committing to another, then one must oblige keeping love and sex together. And I concede this is something each person must decide upon their own. Have never not conceded this. Once the decision is made, then it falls to deception or honesty and herein lies the crux of a quagmire which cause apparent rifts of arguments here.

This is where people must be sure of what they are committed to. There has to have been clear, open and honest communication in establishing the bounds of the commitment. Ms Tiff and I were discussing this thread again last night. We have both been in the lifestyle for many years. We both have friends, individually and mutually of either gender that we enjoy having sex with, but we are not "in love" with any of them.

No matter how passionate the sexual activity with another may seem, if the component of "love" is added, it brings the experience to a whole new level. There is, for us, a deeper, special, ultimately more pleasing and more erotic convergence of emotions and physicality that is cannot be duplicated with anyone else. Simplistically, we are of the mind-set that "making love" requires that connection while "having sex" does not. I was very easy for us to commit to each other that we would never "make love" to someone else.

During our talk last night, she related something her grandmother once told her. The people "come into your life for a reason, a season, or a lifetime." The reason might be something as simple as you or them needing help in a particular way at that time. A season might occur when there is some lesson to be learned. But it is only with the person who joins you for a lifetime that you can experience that deep, abiding love that gives comfort, aids understanding, adds meaning to your life and provides a convergence of the physical and emotional not found in the more short-lived connections that occur.

For us, the existence of that "love" also means the absence of jealousy. Instead, we both experience enjoyment in the physical pleasure which each have experienced with others.

While it might not be articulated often, I believe that those who have been in the swinging lifestyle for a long time probably have relationships that have evolved similar to ours. The fact, however, that we are both bisexual and enjoy each others bisexual involvement probably places us in an even smaller segment.

I do agree that within the context of the commitment, keeping love and sex together is essential, but only as to each other. Separating them becomes necessary with respect to involvement with those outside the relationship.

Pappy

[void()]

Void
"And being comfortable and safe are a result of being honest, open and communicating. In effect, a result of love. This often requires more than a one night stand, a commitment. To get trust, you give it and the same with respect. A way to offer these gifts to others is being open, honest and communicating."

I agree with you Void to a point. Sometimes, one night stands may be more honest and open in communicating "needs" than forty year marriages...:bigrin: If there is a one night stand, I don't think that "love" enters into that "relationship". The purpose of a one night stand perhaps should not be in the same paragraph as commenting on "love". It may be more beneficial for bisexuals discussing fidelity to separate monogamy and love from sexual acts with same sex people.

"Yet I feel once one engages in committing to another, then one must oblige keeping love and sex together."

Perhaps, Void, you will expand upon the above statement?

From my perspective, for a bisexual, I see you introducing "love" and poly relationships. A bi man may love and have sex with a female and may love and have sex with a male. That "closed loop relationship" may be the most beneficial relationship for some bisexuals. For those bisexuals who are capable of being emotionally and sexually attracted to both genders.

How then is a bisexual man to deal with physical sexual and emotional attraction to a female but need physical sex with another male? It seems to me that his female partner must accept that he both loves and is sexually attracted to her but sexually attracted to men as well. That is outside of traditional monogamy as well. It seems to me that it requires quite the pool of either bisexual women or hetero women who can accept this style of relationship. It flies as a contradiction to mainstream hetero monogamous morality and needs altering. If not by the mainstream then an acceptance within society that such people are not wrong or evil. The person being invited to have a relationship with a bisexual needs to be psychologically capable of going outside of mainstream beliefs.

btw I admire the relationship that you have with your wife. I suspect that it took some time to evolve.


Perhaps, Void, you will expand upon the above statement?

You did a somewhat excellent job of expounding it for me. Although will say I do not entirely feel it is as you dub, a "closed loop". You see, I may at times be overtaken with an urge for a casual fucking for the sake of fucking, of another guy. May not want anything aside from a romp, forgo any ideas of relationship. I am human and reserve the right to be contradictory or change way/s of thinking. ;) So, it would not in fact be closed loop. Could meet a guy, turn to wife "I'm fucking him tonight" without any relationship existing between he and I nor existing afterward. And yes, can still do this even having a boyfriend. Fortunate he is as understanding as my wife.

"btw I admire the relationship that you have with your wife. I suspect that it took some time to evolve"

Yep.

[IanBorthwick]

This monogamy belief structure seems to adhere to a mainstream morality based on the needs and constructs of heterosexuality.

And you figure this...how? The rest of your post was a clear "Bisexuality can be superior" idealogue speech. When in reality Heterosexuality finds its true calling in a plural marriage based on means than in a monogamous one. Male can mate many times, women can carry but one term a year.

Honestly...not well thought out statement man.

[Pasadenacpl2]

darkeyes
It is your right to make "cop out" comments without all of the information. You, on the other hand, have not been temporarily banned (yet) for speaking out while you felt your beliefs were being attacked by posters who have no ability to comprehend the issues.

*cough*bullshit*cough*

Considering your jihad against LDD and DD (and others), this is chock full of irony. You weren't being attacked. People were defending themselves against your tyrades. You are not the victim here.

Also, the idea that anyone else 'does not have the ability to comprehend the issues' is laughable, at best. What, their brain doesn't work as well as yours? Or your particular brand of suffering is so unique that others can't possibly understand? Pshaaw.

Get over yourself.

Pasa

[Jobelorocks]

*cough*bullshit*cough*

Considering your jihad against LDD and DD (and others), this is chock full of irony. You weren't being attacked. People were defending themselves against your tyrades. You are not the victim here.

Also, the idea that anyone else 'does not have the ability to comprehend the issues' is laughable, at best. What, their brain doesn't work as well as yours? Or your particular brand of suffering is so unique that others can't possibly understand? Pshaaw.

Get over yourself.

Pasa

While I feel that this post may be slightly harsh, I do see a lot of truth in it.

[FunE1]

So, why should I care if the guy I'm fooling around with is fooling around on his wife?

I would suggest you should care because his wife/partner may not be the forgiving kind... or sane... and might just decide (if they find out) that YOU are the person who deserves punishment for the whole affair and they choose to perpetrate violence (very worst case) or some type of public embarassment to you at your home/place of employment/etc.

As one who was cheated on, I contemplated both violence & public embarassment against my partner's "friend". The latter more than the former, but ultimately my sense won out over my emotions, but I can easily imagine someone who is not so well adjusted (cough cough) being able to step across the line into a reaction more serious.

[Rhevan]

As someone who was cheated on and who has cheated, I do understand there are various "reasons" for it, not excuses or justifications but reasons. Knowing those reasons help a relationship evolve or end. In the case where I was cheated on, it wasn't the sex with others, it was the lying about sex with others. I always play safe and having that jeopardized because someone didn't disturbed me on a lot of levels. It took away my choice. I sweated through years of testing to make sure I was HIV free. The ironic thing is the one who cheated on me was constantly accusing me of cheating on him. I broke the relationship off but still saw him casually in our circle of friends. In his mind the relationship still existed and he was insanely jealous of anyone I might have talked to. But again, it was the lying, not the sex.

When I cheated, I did it for no other reason than I wanted to have sex. I was bisexual and felt I had the right. Seeing my partner in tears on the floor when she found out was something I will never forget. Like me she hadn't cared about the sex she cared about the lying.

So I have learned to be as explicit as possible in any relationship as to the boundaries. I have no issue with anyone who seeks a poly lifestyle or any who seek a monogamous lifestyle. I have not seen anyone here saying either were wrong except for one poster. So I ask again, Tenni, why can't people just live their lives without being judged for choices they make?

[Long Duck Dong]

Void
"And being comfortable and safe are a result of being honest, open and communicating. In effect, a result of love. This often requires more than a one night stand, a commitment. To get trust, you give it and the same with respect. A way to offer these gifts to others is being open, honest and communicating."

I agree with you Void to a point. Sometimes, one night stands may be more honest and open in communicating "needs" than forty year marriages...:bigrin: If there is a one night stand, I don't think that "love" enters into that "relationship". The purpose of a one night stand perhaps should not be in the same paragraph as commenting on "love". It may be more beneficial for bisexuals discussing fidelity to separate monogamy and love from sexual acts with same sex people.

"Yet I feel once one engages in committing to another, then one must oblige keeping love and sex together."

Perhaps, Void, you will expand upon the above statement?

From my perspective, for a bisexual, I see you introducing "love" and poly relationships. A bi man may love and have sex with a female and may love and have sex with a male. That "closed loop relationship" may be the most beneficial relationship for some bisexuals. For those bisexuals who are capable of being emotionally and sexually attracted to both genders.

How then is a bisexual man to deal with physical sexual and emotional attraction to a female but need physical sex with another male? It seems to me that his female partner must accept that he both loves and is sexually attracted to her but sexually attracted to men as well. That is outside of traditional monogamy as well. It seems to me that it requires quite the pool of either bisexual women or hetero women who can accept this style of relationship. It flies as a contradiction to mainstream hetero monogamous morality and needs altering. If not by the mainstream then an acceptance within society that such people are not wrong or evil. The person being invited to have a relationship with a bisexual needs to be psychologically capable of going outside of mainstream beliefs.

btw I admire the relationship that you have with your wife. I suspect that it took some time to evolve.

yeah they need to be capable, both partners do..... but that requires both of the partners to know the nature of the relationship wanted... and that requires open honest communication

that matchs what a lot of posters are saying.... TALK with your partner about the issue.... and that could stop a lot of problems and turn a lot of situations that are deemed cheating, into situations where permission has been given.....

the mainstream heterosexual morality norms thing.... simple, talk to your partner and see if you both can tweak the relationship......otherwise thats like bashing the president then not voting when you have the change... and saying that its other peoples fault that the president got in.....

we have the power to change things in our relationships.... we just need to communicate, not blame everybody for our failure to do so

even DD and I have talked in depth about our relationship and we are generally monogamous minded, but we both laid the groundwork in the event that either of us has needs or wants to experiment.... and the reason for that, is I would rather lose a partner cos I was honest with them, then spend a lifetime lying to them so that I can keep them in my life... but I am out of the closet and open about myself, I am aware that many others are not and that can create other issues for them in life and their relationships

[void()]

open honest communication

Been visiting the site nearly a decade, now. In that time felt as an outsider at first haunting, felt part of a cadre, back to outsider. Not sure how or where the above originated. Some may tell you, I tossed it out.

You should not believe them. I have never had a genuinely pure idea like that in living. This idea forged itself in our site. Seems now, a vast number of us partake of it as the rule of sorting everything out.

Group thinking it is often called, as if to slur. There are times when such thinking in deed, word and action merits a slur. I do not foresee a time when this idea will ever be slurred by dubbing it group think. We built something larger than ourselves here.

Difficult it is to understand the simplicity. Relax. Gather your thoughts. Talk openly and honestly to those you love. May hurt. May bring joy. We cannot assuredly tell you which. We can tell you though, it works.

Afterwards, we are here. You are still welcome. Offer us the same as you did with those you love. You are loved here. We will talk to you openly, honestly. Sometimes we may retreat a few beats. Life does that. We will
return and continue.

There is another idea, sure Drew can be pinned for. He made a place for us to meet, to talk. Thank you, Drew.


*Void steps into a passing show and is gone.*

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
It is your right to make "cop out" comments without all of the information. You, on the other hand, have not been temporarily banned (yet) for speaking out while you felt your beliefs were being attacked by posters who have no ability to comprehend the issues.

It is not the speakin out Tenni babes.. it is the manner in wich ya speak out wich can land ya in the poop.. is a matta of usin the lil noggin an sayin wotya havta wivout actin like a pillock wich lands ya in hot water.. do that an the site is as safe as any an safer than most..

[void()]

It is not the speakin out Tenni babes.. it is the manner in wich ya speak out wich can land ya in the poop.. is a matta of usin the lil noggin an sayin wotya havta wivout actin like a pillock wich lands ya in hot water.. do that an the site is as safe as any an safer than most..

*void strolls by and nabs the fish and chips which are no longer wrapped in newspaper, curses this fact chidingly, wanders along though munching fish an chips watching the watchers ... whistles a spry little ancient tune as he ambles on ... pauses, ...*

Some people they not be molded and wired to get it. Used to think that was problem I had. Then it came back recently, quite an old lesson, one for the grammars.

"Greatest secret of all is ...", and the old arch-mage dies leaving behind his apprentice. Young wizard takes to poring over all his lessons from the master, searches, fumes and rages as the library reveals spells, chants to wash the laundry, amulets and charms to vex enemies. Alas, he finds no Greatest Secret. He then sets out upon his way in life, takes odd works, heals sick villagers, makes crops grow, tends livestock. One day toiling with a grinding wheel he sees his old master in a face of a child. "My boy, the Greatest Secret is, there are no Greatest Secrets." With that the master vanishes again.

*winks, turns a hulking boat jacket wearing lad, fades into the mist whistling that same bright tune ... chuckles softly and says "Next we dot the t's and cross the i's, that'll fix the lot of black hearts." ... *

[tenni]

"And you figure this...how? The rest of your post was a clear "Bisexuality can be superior" idealogue speech. When in reality Heterosexuality finds its true calling in a plural marriage based on means than in a monogamous one. Male can mate many times, women can carry but one term a year.

Honestly...not well thought out statement man."

Ian
Sorry, if I seem to promote bisexuality as superior to ? Golly gee wiz though isn't this a bisexual website?

Where did monogamy originate? Did it originate with gay men or heterosexual needs to raise children? Monogamy is a mainstream construct and one reason is to perpetuate the species and provide support for children over a long extended period ....not love. Both men and women may mate many times in any specific time period. That is one factor that distinguishes humans from many other species.

Explain your statement about heterosexuality true calling in a plural marriage based on means? If you are referring to such structures as one male to many females, I don't think that is the heterosexual belief structure in the Western societies, is it?

darkeyes
I stand by my belief that it is not safe to support alternate lifestyles (fuck buddies, going outside of your primary relationship without permission etc.) that are outside of monogamy on this website. It does seem acceptable to scream at bisexual men who do go outside their primary hetero relationship regardless of the factors. It does seem acceptable to attack the lifestyle of those who prefer fuck buddies with challenge after challenge rather than just admit that it is not your lifestyle but ok....good for you.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Darkeyes
I stand by my belief that it is not safe to support alternate lifestyles (fuck buddies, going outside of your primary relationship without permission etc.) that are outside of monogamy on this website.

Probably true. Most do not accept deception as an "alternate lifestyle."

Get permission from your wife to have a fuckbuddy and all is well.

Pasa

[Gearbox]

Take it from one who has cheated.. fucking around behind your partner's back is treating them with both contempt and as a lump of shite... you can try and rationalise it all u like to make it sound acceptable.. but it is treating them like so much crap.. it has nothing to do with monogamy or being monosexual.. if there is no acceptance by a partner or partners that straying the nest is fine.. it is cheating..those in multi partner relationships fuck around too.. ergo.. cheatin is treating the trusting innocent partner like shite.. they may not know it and may never know it.. that doesnt change a thing about what it is...
I don't see anything there but a description of cheating and an opinion that cheaters treat their partners like shit.
It's hardly rational to accept your word as just one former 'cheater' to slur the entire population of 'cheaters', now is it?:rolleyes:

I get that you define 'betraying a trust' as being the bad part of 'cheating' (I think), but does that go for ANY trust? Or just the magic 'skin on skin sex with others' one?
If so, why is that?

[Long Duck Dong]

"And you figure this...how? The rest of your post was a clear "Bisexuality can be superior" idealogue speech. When in reality Heterosexuality finds its true calling in a plural marriage based on means than in a monogamous one. Male can mate many times, women can carry but one term a year.

Honestly...not well thought out statement man."

Ian
Sorry, if I seem to promote bisexuality as superior to ? Golly gee wiz though isn't this a bisexual website?

Where did monogamy originate? Did it originate with gay men or heterosexual needs to raise children? Monogamy is a mainstream construct and one reason is to perpetuate the species and provide support for children over a long extended period ....not love. Both men and women may mate many times in any specific time period. That is one factor that distinguishes humans from many other species.

Explain your statement about heterosexuality true calling in a plural marriage based on means? If you are referring to such structures as one male to many females, I don't think that is the heterosexual belief structure in the Western societies, is it?


monogamy and polygamy both originated with people..... different cultures had different ways of doing things..... and marriage was not always the reason... as marriage did not always exist in the way we understand it .......

reproduction stands for itself, as a man and a woman were needed to create babies, but a man can create many children with many different women..... so the ideas of polygamy interaction made sense, survival of the fittest in a sense

different religions embraced the ideas of monogamy and polygamy and some still do... its legal rule that changed the legality

many people in the site that have talked about going outside of the marriage, make the same statement, we love the one we are with, we have sex with the ones we don't

even they are * conforming * to the heterosexual mainstream norm of monogamy by being with the one they love...... something that you have acknowledged in the past, but deny that love is part of a monogamous set up as you have done in your post......

people like bityme and gearbox, amongst others, have referred to the monogamous nature of their love, verses the polygamous nature of their sexual interactions.....

it is love that is the basis of a monogamous / polyarmous relationship, not conforming or rebelling against social norms.... as people generally understand that you can control whom you sleep with, but not whom you love or desire.....

when it is not love, you end up with a forced marriage / arranged marriage . marriage of convenience... IE I married that person cos it was expected of me but I desire other people......... as has happened all thru history....

marriage is a understanding by many people of * I love you, I want to be with you, you make me happy and I do not desire other people when I am with you *..... with many bisexuals, its the same thing, except the I do desire sex with other people even tho I am with you * and that is the difference between a monogamous marriage and a open marriage.....

when you call monogamy a heterosexual mainstream norm.... you are in essense, deny the basis of why many people get married which is cos of love and a desire to spend a long time with the person......
even people that are in open marriages, still follow the monogamous aspect of marriage, I love my partner, I have sex with other people.... but your argument rules out the love aspect

even if you change social understanding so that people think that a relationship / marriage with a bisexual person means a open relationship.... you have to realise that there are many people that will say no thank you to a open relationship, they are not interested..... and that is their right...... in the same way you believe that a bisexual should not have to be in a closed relationship

it comes down to the rights of BOTH partners, love...and choice....... and if we influence social thinking to support a singular point of view about bisexuals.... then we have created a reverse situation of creating a bisexual mainstream norm, where it is expected of the bisexual to be having sex with other people, and can lead to people having a unreal expection of how bisexuals should be acting in relationships and marriages......

honestly and bluntly, tenni, why do you just not say that we should return to the days where a male has all the rights and a female has none..... cos when you approach the issue from the bi male point of view, thats exactly what you are doing.......

[dafydd]

perhaps it depends on at what point you are in life when you first fully explore your bisexuality. If you flirt with sex with the same gender only after you've been married for many years, then bisexuality is experienced in the context of sex away from marriage or 'cheating'. If you're single when you explore, then you're able to have the experience of bisexuality over the course of different monogamous relationships with men and women, and so you're more likely to see that the two (bisexuality and 'cheating') are not mutually exclusive.
perhaps. It would be interesting to see how many people who view bisexuality and non-monogamy as intertwined were in committed relationships when they began exploring their sexuality.
d

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=Gearbox;215546]I don't see anything there but a description of cheating and an opinion that cheaters treat their partners like shit.
It's hardly rational to accept your word as just one former 'cheater' to slur the entire population of 'cheaters', now is it?:rolleyes:

You dont have to accept anything from me.. and Im not slurring the entire population of cheaters at all.. just accept it for what it is and dont rationalise it to make it sound nice, comfy and acceptable and without cost.. Rhevan knows something of what cheating can do.. destroying the illusions and dreams of another person who loves us desperately is so easy to do and so difficult to see... but then it is too late.

[æonpax]

"open honest communication*

There ya go and I would add, "To thine own self, be true." Problem with honesty, and I mean stark, brutal honesty, is it leaves both people very vulnerable, which is why most avoid it.

Were affaires de cœur logical and clear cut, these topics would not exist.
`

[darkeyes]

[I]"darkeyes
I stand by my belief that it is not safe to support alternate lifestyles (fuck buddies, going outside of your primary relationship without permission etc.) that are outside of monogamy on this website. It does seem acceptable to scream at bisexual men who do go outside their primary hetero relationship regardless of the factors. It does seem acceptable to attack the lifestyle of those who prefer fuck buddies with challenge after challenge rather than just admit that it is not your lifestyle but ok....good for you.

Dont look at me when u talk about attacking the the fuck buddy lifestyle. Thats how u wanna live is fine with me.. and most other people... but it isnt the lifestyle which is criticised but the assumption that folk are quite entitled to be dishonest and do their own thing, that their life partners are in the wrong if they expect the person they love to stick to their word and have no rights, and are to blame for being so fucking unreasonable.. been there, done that and have seen the cost...

..and actually I dont notice anyone scream.. criticise sure... argue from a different perspective from u definitely.. that doesnt make this site unsafe for u to make your point of view known and argue accordingly... it makes open debate on any issue u care to mention unsafe wherever you are in this world.. because no point of view on any topic has the right to go unchallenged... and if that is what u want u are in the wrong place.. even if u booted every single one of us who is not bisexual out of this site..

[Long Duck Dong]

I agree with you fran.....

honestly, I am sick to death of people thinking that bisexuals are people that can not be honest with their partners and would lie, manipulate, decieve anybody if there was a chance that they could get laid......

cheating is not a bisexual trait....in the same way that poly relationships are not a bisexual norm.... any more than monogamy is a heterosexual norm

people are honest with their partners or not honest, its not a sexuality trait... and there are many of us that have cheated / been cheated on or both..... and its harsh but its not just bisexuals that do it either.......

thank god for the honest bisexuals that treat their partners with love and respect, and still have a open relationship that works.... as thats the thing that society needs to see..... instead of all the negative issues, like the cheating, lying, infidelity..... cos that would help combat many of the naysayers that we have to deal with........

[darkeyes]

"And you figure this...how? The rest of your post was a clear "Bisexuality can be superior" idealogue speech. When in reality Heterosexuality finds its true calling in a plural marriage based on means than in a monogamous one. Male can mate many times, women can carry but one term a year.

Honestly...not well thought out statement man."

Ian
Sorry, if I seem to promote bisexuality as superior to ? Golly gee wiz though isn't this a bisexual website?

Where did monogamy originate? Did it originate with gay men or heterosexual needs to raise children? Monogamy is a mainstream construct and one reason is to perpetuate the species and provide support for children over a long extended period ....not love. Both men and women may mate many times in any specific time period. That is one factor that distinguishes humans from many other species.

Explain your statement about heterosexuality true calling in a plural marriage based on means? If you are referring to such structures as one male to many females, I don't think that is the heterosexual belief structure in the Western societies, is it?



He doesnt mean mate, Tenni babes.. he means breed.. man splashin' his seed about and havin' harems of women to breed with all to his lil lole self.. splashin dollops of seed makes men superior doesnt it? While we poor cows can only conceive roughly once a year... we are but animals, thinking animals sure, but animals and should obey the call of the wild and do what the wild tells us.. let men rule all and gather unto themselves all the stupid bints they can, get them up the duff and and lord it over them and his progeny while he does his 21st century hunter gatherer bit and women have no say in how they or their kids are to be...

Ian thinks women rule the world and have become too uppity and its time we once again bowed down and grovelled on the altar of man because we have made man not man but wimp, subservient to the wishes of woman.. Ian wishes a return to man's historical place as lord over all and woman's as plaything, slave and dummy. He sees those of us who strive for equality for all no matter our gender as a womans struggle to dominate and actually believes that we have achieved it... and so he addresses those of us who will not be cowered by man as man hater and calls us so..

... but because we are thinking animals, we know his vision and wish to return to the past place of man and woman is bollox.. the cat is out of the bag and it isnt being forced back again..

[tenni]

As someone who was cheated on and who has cheated, I do understand there are various "reasons" for it, not excuses or justifications but reasons. Knowing those reasons help a relationship evolve or end. In the case where I was cheated on, it wasn't the sex with others, it was the lying about sex with others. I always play safe and having that jeopardized because someone didn't disturbed me on a lot of levels. It took away my choice. I sweated through years of testing to make sure I was HIV free. The ironic thing is the one who cheated on me was constantly accusing me of cheating on him. I broke the relationship off but still saw him casually in our circle of friends. In his mind the relationship still existed and he was insanely jealous of anyone I might have talked to. But again, it was the lying, not the sex.

When I cheated, I did it for no other reason than I wanted to have sex. I was bisexual and felt I had the right. Seeing my partner in tears on the floor when she found out was something I will never forget. Like me she hadn't cared about the sex she cared about the lying.

So I have learned to be as explicit as possible in any relationship as to the boundaries. I have no issue with anyone who seeks a poly lifestyle or any who seek a monogamous lifestyle. I have not seen anyone here saying either were wrong except for one poster. So I ask again, Tenni, why can't people just live their lives without being judged for choices they make?

Revan
I agree with you that people(more specifically bisexuals) should be able to just live their lives without being judged for their choices. Those choices include those bisexuals who go outside of their monogamous relationships without informing their partner. Other posters should stop judging them as wrong and bad. It is not those judgmental posters business whether their partner is hurt or not and so stop judging and making all these judgmental postings.

You are new here and missed all the condemnation and judging by some posters. You have missed the posters who are upset with those bisexuals who are not monogamous and think that non monogamous bisexuals give bisexuality a "bad name"(in the mainstream hetero society). Contrary to darkeyes selective memory that bisexual men have not been condemned and screamed at for their choices (and justifications) to go outside of their monogamous relationship.

"It would be interesting to see how many people who view bisexuality and non-monogamy as intertwined were in committed relationships when they began exploring their sexuality."

Daffyd
It is not that I(and others) see bisexuality and non monogamy as interwined as much as it is a greater likelihood that bisexuals find themselves needing a non monogamous lifestyle to deal with their needs for both genders sexually. It seem perfectly logical to me and I support a more open and optional lifestyle for most bisexuals. I think that it may also be difficult to answer your question about whether I (and others who may think this way) were in committed relationship when we began to explore our sexuality. That may have taken years. From what I have read of other bisexuals comments some did begin to realize that they were bisexual while in a monogamous relationship but not all. I was not but I was in a monogamous relationship when the idea returned. Personally, I didn't even know about bisexuality as an option when same sex thoughts entered my mind. It has been a long journey and your question is not easy to answer for me.

[Gearbox]

[QUOTE=Gearbox;215546]I don't see anything there but a description of cheating and an opinion that cheaters treat their partners like shit.
It's hardly rational to accept your word as just one former 'cheater' to slur the entire population of 'cheaters', now is it?:rolleyes:

You dont have to accept anything from me.. and Im not slurring the entire population of cheaters at all.. just accept it for what it is and dont rationalise it to make it sound nice, comfy and acceptable and without cost.. Rhevan knows something of what cheating can do.. destroying the illusions and dreams of another person who loves us desperately is so easy to do and so difficult to see... but then it is too late.
'Cheating' CAN be rational! It can be very nice and comfortable from the point of view of the 'cheater'.
From the point of view of the 'cheated'? Well that depends on THEM!
Don't need anybody telling them what to think/feel about 'cheating', I'm sure.
Some partners actually 'FORGIVE' their 'cheating' partner when found out. Imagine that?:eek: Their hopes&dreams were prevented from destruction due to a bit of rational understanding.;)

[darkeyes]

If u think dishonesty is a good thing Tenni, good for u.. what u say is that because people are bisexual, special rules apply.. well they don't.. the only rules which apply are the rules which are agreed between two parties in monogamous relationships... and the only people who have the right to change these rules are the TWO people in question..

What u are saying is that bisexuals, because they are bisexual, have the right to fuck where they please, when they please, with whom they please without any care and consideration to a partner with whom they entered into a committed one to one exclusive relationship and it is unreasonable of that partner to expect any differently.. actually u do keep harping on about bisexual men.. not often is any reference made to bisexual women which leads me to doubt any commitment to any cause except that of bisexual men being laws unto themselves in general and yourself in particular..

I am not naturally monogamous but live a monogamous lifestyle for very good reason.. some things in life mean more to me than sex.. I may not be bisexual but in a committed relationship agreements and commitments entered into are precisely the same as for any bisexual or heterosexual person. If you wish to preach that it is fine and dandy to lie and go off and do ur own thing fine do that.. I have lived that and been there and seen the wreckage and human destruction it brings..

It is all very well to say we should not agree to exclusivity at the outset, but we cannot choose who we fall in love with, what their wishes are and the kind of person they happen to be... we make compromises throughout a relationship but upon fidelity and infidelity, where two people who love each other think and want different things, there can be no compromise.. something has to give or there is no future in the relationship.. sacrifice has to be made.. I chose my way for very good reason.. the alternative for me is a much more bleak world..

Preach your dishonesty all you like.. preach that people have the right to lie and cheat to their partners willy nilly and that it is no concern of yours if things go badly awry and people have their lives ruined by your actions... just accept it for what it is... contempt for others, treating someone you have made promises and a commitment to and claim to love like shite...

.. and people havent screamed at u at all.. believe me, I know screaming and I have seen or heard any of it here...they have criticised and loudly, and they will again.. but the most shrill cry is not their's but your own, as you rail against those who have the temerity to dialike dishonesty, deception and being lied to, and you try to convince the world that in matters bisexual, it doesn't matter a fuck how bisexuals act because the feelings, wants and beliefs of others are just so much shite to be dismissed as nothing and so can safely be ignored..

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;215573]
'Cheating' CAN be rational! It can be very nice and comfortable from the point of view of the 'cheater'.
From the point of view of the 'cheated'? Well that depends on THEM!
Don't need anybody telling them what to think/feel about 'cheating', I'm sure.
Some partners actually 'FORGIVE' their 'cheating' partner when found out. Imagine that?:eek: Their hopes&dreams were prevented from destruction due to a bit of rational understanding.;)

Cheating can be rational you are quite right... partners do forgive.. I have one who has done just that... that makes everything all right then does it?

[quiet1fornow]

I am perhaps an odd person out here or maybe just did not read everyone of the postings…

“…Infidelity can occur in relation to physical intimacy and/or emotional intimacy. The impact of infidelity is said to be not only about sex outside the relationship, but also about trust, betrayal, lying and disloyalty.[1] Sexual infidelity by a marriage partner is commonly called philandery, adultery, or an affair.
What constitutes an act of infidelity varies between and within cultures and depends on the type of relationship that exists between people. Even within an open relationship, infidelity may arise if a partner in the relationship acts outside of the understood boundaries of that relationship.
Emotional infidelity is emotional involvement with another person, a process that leads one’s partner to channel emotional resources, such as romantic love, time, and attention, to someone else.[2] The level of intimate involvement can extend from in-person involvement to online affairs. Emotional infidelity, as compared to physical infidelity, can inflict as much, if not more, hurt, pain and suffering. Most infidelity involves both physical and emotional unfaithfulness.”

This to me summarizes what many have said and supports both sides”…I think the key here is simple and outlined in the quote above, “What constitutes an act of infidelity varies between and within cultures and depends on the type of relationship that exists between people. Even within an open relationship, infidelity may arise if a partner in the relationship acts outside of the understood boundaries of that relationship.”

This is from a definition; meaning more of a one side or the other type approach….the issue is application to individual situations ….there are obviously many opinions on how the act of “cheating/infidelity” applies…my opinion is a sexual act includes intimacy, to me if it does not….it is self pleasuring times two or more I guess and so far, at 59 yo has never really been part of my sexual history. As a single male of college age I had one experience that qualified as not intimacy….kind of like a masturbation session with no orgasm, as I remember it…

This issue is not able to be “legislated”…it is a matter between the people in the relationship(s) agreed parameters…IMHO! It is not my purpose to judge here nor even really debate ….I assume if we did agree completely, the “Kool-Aid” would have done its job!

early on in my marriage, I had intimate sessions outside my marriage, same sex, with her knowledge...and then as time went forward...not too long into our marriage, but not at the start we then agreed and renewed how it would be...and for reasons of both lack of seeking the opportunity and lack of desire never occurred again.....then many years later after a horrific battle with depression a choice was made, one-sided, selfishly...it emotionally was the ultimate infidelity with her disease....

I have survived it....the community here has in many ways assisted in my recovery much more than most will ever know...just by a joke, a warm greeting, understanding....so I will try to end by saying ...yes, infidelity is survivable....it can have indescribable terms!

Best Regards,
Q:cool:

[tenni]

Darkeyes
Where do you see that I have posted that I think that dishonesty is the best route? Where do you see that I posted that "I" was screamed at? Goodness to mergatroid.. woman. :eek::tong: I don't need to be screamed at without being upset with how bisexual men are treated on this site by some. I don't have to be a cheater not to be able to see the various factors ignored by others. I told you already that I am not talking about cheating but wishing to see something more positive happen. You are trying to interpret my words and you are wrong with your understanding.

I do think that bisexuals should not feel bad if they are not suited to monogamy and that yes, monogamy should not be the first option for a bisexual imo. I think that it would be a good thing if the mainstream heteros and gay groups accepted this about bisexuals. If it becomes a right, good but I think that we are far from changing that attitude. It might be a positive step for other bisexuals to not condemn those bisexuals who are not monogamous. Bisexuals are not monosexuals and I think that we, bisexuals should accept that. We are different. Explore ways that we can live and be happy. If a bisexual can do this and examine this before entering a relationship with a monosexual that is the better way. If they enter a relationship with another bisexual, that may be the best way to live or just go with fuck buddies:bigrin:. Certainly ranting about cheaters does us no freak'n good. Get over it.

[Rhevan]

Revan
I agree with you that people(more specifically bisexuals) should be able to just live their lives without being judged for their choices. Those choices include those bisexuals who go outside of their monogamous relationships without informing their partner. Other posters should stop judging them as wrong and bad. It is not those judgmental posters business whether their partner is hurt or not and so stop judging and making all these judgmental postings.

You are new here and missed all the condemnation and judging by some posters. You have missed the posters who are upset with those bisexuals who are not monogamous and think that non monogamous bisexuals give bisexuality a "bad name"(in the mainstream hetero society). Contrary to darkeyes selective memory that bisexual men have not been condemned and screamed at for their choices (and justifications) to go outside of their monogamous relationship.

"It would be interesting to see how many people who view bisexuality and non-monogamy as intertwined were in committed relationships when they began exploring their sexuality."

Daffyd
It is not that I(and others) see bisexuality and non monogamy as interwined as much as it is a greater likelihood that bisexuals find themselves needing a non monogamous lifestyle to deal with their needs for both genders sexually. It seem perfectly logical to me and I support a more open and optional lifestyle for most bisexuals. I think that it may also be difficult to answer your question about whether I (and others who may think this way) were in committed relationship when we began to explore our sexuality. That may have taken years. From what I have read of other bisexuals comments some did begin to realize that they were bisexual while in a monogamous relationship but not all. I was not but I was in a monogamous relationship when the idea returned. Personally, I didn't even know about bisexuality as an option when same sex thoughts entered my mind. It has been a long journey and your question is not easy to answer for me.

I may be a new registrant but I am not new here. I have been reading this forum for a few years. I never saw the need to register until I was ready to reach out and try to live again after the death of my partner. Now, Tenni, please take heed of your own words. Everyone has the right to choices, including the partner of the cheater. They deserve to know what is going on and what decisions they have to make concerning the relationship. Being bisexual is not some sacred thing, it just means I can love a woman as well as I can love a man. It doesn't mean I can go out and hit on a married woman and tell her not to tell her husband, nor can I hit on the husband of a married woman and tell him not to tell his wife. I prefer my partners have no issues with significant others. Most of my partners have been allowed to "play" but everyone involved both in the playing and any aftereffects was consulted.

You congratulated Void on his relationship, yet have you actually read the posts where he says that he and his wife let each other know what is going on for safety sake?

Again, read your own words. No one had been judging anyone until you started telling everyone they were "conforming". I said it in my first post and I'll say it again, no one speaks for all bisexuals. What you do in your own life is up to you, but to say you don't care if someone's partner gets hurt because of infidelity makes you petty in my book. How did you feel when it was you that was hurt by infidelity? It's not a nice feeling and it's not one I ever want to inflict on someone else willingly. But if you don't have a partner you can talk to about things and change the relationship if necessary you might not understand what most of the people here are saying. Fidelity is more about trust than sexual indiscretions.

[darkeyes]

Darkeyes
Where do you see that I have posted that I think that dishonesty is the best route? Where do you see that I posted that "I" was screamed at? Goodness to mergatroid.. woman. :eek::tong: I don't need to be screamed at without being upset with how bisexual men are treated on this site by some. I don't have to be a cheater not to be able to see the various factors ignored by others. I told you already that I am not talking about cheating but wishing to see something more positive happen. You are trying to interpret my words and you are wrong with your understanding.

I do think that bisexuals should not feel bad if they are not suited to monogamy and that yes, monogamy should not be the first option for a bisexual imo. I think that it would be a good thing if the mainstream heteros and gay groups accepted this about bisexuals. If it becomes a right, good but I think that we are far from changing that attitude. It might be a positive step for other bisexuals to not condemn those bisexuals who are not monogamous. Bisexuals are not monosexuals and I think that we, bisexuals should accept that. We are different. Explore ways that we can live and be happy. If a bisexual can do this and examine this before entering a relationship with a monosexual that is the better way. If they enter a relationship with another bisexual, that may be the best way to live or just go with fuck buddies:bigrin:. Certainly ranting about cheaters does us no freak'n good. Get over it.

Ok.. I can accept you do not include yourself in the bisexuals you say have been screamed at in these forums.. I wont apologise for thinking it because the whole tenor of the way you post and the things you post gives that impression. And no, I dont think either that you think the best way forward is to do things dishonestly.. quite the contrary, but you do accept that bisexuals have the right to do so should they not get their way and sod the consequences.. because they are bisexuals.. it is on that point you and I have an issue or two..

Yes bisexuals are different.. just as gays, lesbians and transexuals are diferent.. but not that different.. the attraction to more than one gender doesnt give bisexuals special privileges.. each individual has to assess and decide her or his own way and for each of us whatever our sexuality that is the way it will always be and has to be.. we are human sexual beings every one of us, and bisexuals are no better or worse, and have no special rights and privileges than any other group of sexual beings..

I have always questioned whether monogamy is the first option for any human being.. I dont have the answer to it.. it is certainly not my preference and never has been.. but it is the preference of many, including many bisexual people of which my partner is one.. it is not up to us to say whether or not monogamy is the first option for anyone.. that is their choice based on belief, upbringing, instinct, sentience and simply whatever is in their nature.. I question it, but am not so arrogant as to say I know the truth, or that it is the same for us all... I dont know any more than you..

..and as long as there are people, not just bisexuals who dishonestly shag around behind the backs of their partner, the discussion of cheating will always be pertinent.. in the discussion of bisexual rights and their right to do their own thing it is no less pertinent.. so u get over the "rants" and stop ranting yourself.. cos it will keep coming back to bite you on the arse..

[tenni]

darkeyes
Then we shall have to agree to disagree. I think that bisexuals are "different" from monosexuals and that includes gays and lesbians. When you refer to "special privileges" you remind me of fundamentalist Christians arguing that G&L want "special privileges" to marry. :eek::bigrin: It may not be special as much as "equal"? We may need a society to accept that monosexuality is not the only way to live. We may need laws to change after attitude change. That is in the future though. It should start here though on a site for bisexuals. We should alter our own minds and open them up to alternatives.

I don't have the intelligence to write the manifesto though. :)

btw Revan I've been cheated on by both a man and a woman. I understand the pain and I accept my responsibility in failing to communicate. Failure to communicate is not a one way street.

[void()]

There ya go and I would add, "To thine own self, be true." Problem with honesty, and I mean stark, brutal honesty, is it leaves both people very vulnerable, which is why most avoid it.

Were affaires de cœur logical and clear cut, these topics would not exist.
`

Find myself often at a distance from others. As a child I accepted love to be my greatest weakness and greatest strength. Knowing it is both does not make vulnerability any less an issue, merely highlights the folly of humanity. As such, now people can read and see why I seem reserved, disconnected. I can be vulnerable as in being submissive, as easy as being impervious and dominate. *chuckles* I got wired to be AC/DC through and through. Bother, listening to La Roux presently, that evil thing called a smile is visiting. Quick, alert the authorities!

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
Then we shall have to agree to disagree. I think that bisexuals are "different" from monosexuals and that includes gays and lesbians. When you refer to "special privileges" you remind me of fundamentalist Christians arguing that G&L want "special privileges" to marry. :eek::bigrin: It may not be special as much as "equal"? We may need a society to accept that monosexuality is not the only way to live. We may need laws to change after attitude change. That is in the future though. It should start here though on a site for bisexuals. We should alter our own minds and open them up to alternatives.



*laffs* tyvm for considering me in the same breath as weirdo religies..:tong: lucky I have a sense of humour or I'd get easily offended...:bigrin:

My mind is already open to alternatives.. I don't care how others live their lives so long as they do not try and impose their lifestyle on me or anyone else.. except in one vital area.. harm no other.. I have lived it all my adult life pretty successfully apart from a few boobs and a several huge failures along the way, but I am human like the rest of us.. but I do try to live it as best I can.. and to learn from those boobs and failures, which I do and hope I always shall..and in the the doctrine of harm no other.. it means exactly what it says.. but u and I would I am sure have quite a different idea of what it does mean..:)

[Gearbox]

[QUOTE=Gearbox;215592]

Cheating can be rational you are quite right... partners do forgive.. I have one who has done just that... that makes everything all right then does it?
Only she can answer that. I'm glad you both obviously love each other for who you are, and know that though.:)
That's the important thing IMO. It's far easier to love someone than it is to reveal your honest to goodness, warts & all self to them and trust that they'll still love you back. Your both equally blessed.;)

Hopefully others might take that risk, be accepted for who they are rather than what they do, and quit 'cheating'. Not likely to happen if they get damned on this site though.:eek:
Where else could they expect to get some support&understanding than on a bisexual forum?

[Darkside2009]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;215573]
'Cheating' CAN be rational! It can be very nice and comfortable from the point of view of the 'cheater'.
From the point of view of the 'cheated'? Well that depends on THEM!
Don't need anybody telling them what to think/feel about 'cheating', I'm sure.
Some partners actually 'FORGIVE' their 'cheating' partner when found out. Imagine that?:eek: Their hopes&dreams were prevented from destruction due to a bit of rational understanding.;)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reverse is also true, some partners don't forgive their partners for duping them, when they eventually find out.

A little prior-honesty with their partner might prevent them waking up one morning with the bread-knife buried between their ribs, or being served drain cleaner with their morning coffee. I'm sure Mr Bobbit will agree.

Much better to be honest with a partner, or even prospective partner, on how one wishes and intends to lead one's life.

The partner, or prospective partner, then has the option to decide if that is a lifestyle they wish to be a part of, or if their needs might be better met elsewhere, with someone else, more compatible to themselves.

You see, it's not really about sex, it's about character. Lying to a partner, or prospective partner, restricts their options. Yet the very same people, who would have no qualms about restricting their partners options, are the very first to complain if they feel their options are being restricted. :rolleyes:

[Rhevan]

[QUOTE=Gearbox;215592]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reverse is also true, some partners don't forgive their partners for duping them, when they eventually find out.

A little prior-honesty with their partner might prevent them waking up one morning with the bread-knife buried between their ribs, or being served drain cleaner with their morning coffee. I'm sure Mr Bobbit will agree.

Much better to be honest with a partner, or even prospective partner, on how one wishes and intends to lead one's life.

The partner, or prospective partner, then has the option to decide if that is a lifestyle they wish to be a part of, or if their needs might be better met elsewhere, with someone else, more compatible to themselves.

You see, it's not really about sex, it's about character. Lying to a partner, or prospective partner, restricts their options. Yet the very same people, who would have no qualms about restricting their partners options, are the very first to complain if they feel their options are being restricted. :rolleyes:

I agree with this. It is about character. Tenni, over and over several have said there is nothing wrong with your not being monogamous, but you are not just pushing for something other than monogamy, you are pushing an agenda of lying while arguing you shouldn't have to lie. That contradicts itself. If you can't be honest in a relationship don't be in a relationship but do not condemn others for being honest in their relationships. Given what you posted so far in this thread I'm beginning to think you feel your male partners cheat on you when they go home and sleep with their wives.

[tenni]

[QUOTE=Darkside2009;215632]

I agree with this. It is about character. Tenni, over and over several have said there is nothing wrong with your not being monogamous, but you are not just pushing for something other than monogamy, you are pushing an agenda of lying while arguing you shouldn't have to lie. That contradicts itself. If you can't be honest in a relationship don't be in a relationship but do not condemn others for being honest in their relationships. Given what you posted so far in this thread I'm beginning to think you feel your male partners cheat on you when they go home and sleep with their wives.

Rhevan
Really? Ok. I'm a creep in your eyes. We do not write the same language. I'm a bad bisexual. Yep. Can you quote where I have written that you should lie to anyone? If I did, I'm sorry.

Anyone that I have sex with and what they do after they are with me is not my business at this point. I assume that they are having sex with others. If they tell me fine. If I want to know I'll ask knowing that they may lie.

I find married bisexual men to be very honest with me.

If I entered into a monogamous agreement yes then I would feel just like everyone else. I don't know how many times that I can repeat this but I don't think that bisexuals should enter into a monogamous relationship. I agree that open, honest communication is the best.
I can understand why a married bisexual man may lie to his wife though. Do you see the difference? I believe in offering support and compassion to my fellow bisexuals whether they have cheated or not. Is wanting to offer support and compassion to bisexual men who cheat illegal on this site?

[Rhevan]

[QUOTE=Rhevan;215634]

Really? Ok. I'm a creep in your eyes. We do not write the same language. I'm a bad bisexual. Yep.

There are no bad bisexuals, there are no good bisexuals. However, there are bad and good people. Lying falls into the former not the latter, your agenda, you choose how others see you with what you post.

[tenni]

darkeyes
Yep
Its safe on this site.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
Yep
Its safe on this site.

So it is being questioned and argued with that u object to.. they do it to me and just about everyone else regularly.. don't bitch about safety...this is about debate and freedom of speech.... if u cant take the heat as they say...:rolleyes:

[Pasadenacpl2]

I am in a committed relationship. I have the right to know who my partner is sleeping with. I have the right to know if they are gay ir bi or straight or TG. I have the right to know if they are engaging in risky behavior, what those risks are, and what they are doing to minimize those risks. I have the right to know that there is a risk of STDs (even with safER sex practices) if I allow my partner to have sexual contact with me.

I have these rights because I have the right to informed consent. Cheating, by definition, removes my ability to consent. To deny informed consent is wrong.

Your partner might leave if you tell them you are bi and want sex with men. They might do any number of things. But it is their RIGHT to be given the choice.

I find it ironic that a Canadian who has lectured on and on about rights and how Canadians are far more sensitive to civil rights than Americans is the one to advocate denying informed consent to sexual partners.

Pasa

[Twoforyou]

Maybe I missed it, but what I don't see being addressed here is the amount of harm done to yourself, by yourself, by denying something you know you need. By extension... resentment is almost certain to bleed into a relationship.

I think many bisexual people are empathetic by nature. We tend to worry about the effect on other people more than ourselves. Trouble is, while we're worrying about that, we're either steamed or we're martyrs...bravely sacrificing our desires for the Greater Good!

Jeeze...what relationship can take that?

I agree with one thing. If you're going to be serious with someone...tell 'em. Don't tell them on the first date over the shrimp cocktail. But do tell them with a kiss...a caress...or one of those deep-eye-contact things that people like to do. Give yourself a fighting chance.

I've read a lot about ethics here, and it's refreshing, but let me submit my thinking.

Ethics without heart is a form of Facism.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Maybe I missed it, but what I don't see being addressed here is the amount of harm done to yourself, by yourself, by denying something you know you need. By extension... resentment is almost certain to bleed into a relationship.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you. What is being argued is keeping it a secret while you go stick your dick in someone else's anus without telling your partner.


Ethics without heart is a form of Facism.

This statement makes no sense to me in light of what Fascism is. Could you explain?

Pasa

[Darkside2009]

Maybe I missed it, but what I don't see being addressed here is the amount of harm done to yourself, by yourself, by denying something you know you need. By extension... resentment is almost certain to bleed into a relationship.

I think many bisexual people are empathetic by nature. We tend to worry about the effect on other people more than ourselves. Trouble is, while we're worrying about that, we're either steamed or we're martyrs...bravely sacrificing our desires for the Greater Good!

Jeeze...what relationship can take that?

I agree with one thing. If you're going to be serious with someone...tell 'em. Don't tell them on the first date over the shrimp cocktail. But do tell them with a kiss...a caress...or one of those deep-eye-contact things that people like to do. Give yourself a fighting chance.

I've read a lot about ethics here, and it's refreshing, but let me submit my thinking.

Ethics without heart is a form of Facism.

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It's alright if someone else has to make the sacrifices though? As I recall the Fascists didn't assign many rights to anyone.

What most of us here are advocating is honesty in relationships, then all the parties involved have the option to exercise their free will, as to whether or not they wish to be part of a non-monagamous relationship.

If they choose not to, that leaves all concerned parties complete freedom to pursue their sexual proclivities with others who think and feel the same way.

There are those who just wish casual sex in their lives, and that is fine between consenting adults, but it may not be fine for those seeking a more stable relationship. Honestly expressing what is being offered and accepted is the best option. Lying, merely causes emotional pain, distrust, jealousy, anger and serious risk of physical harm when the injured party discovers they have been lied to and their feelings and emotions treated with contempt.

You'll have to excuse me now, I have to go and polish my jack-boots. :rolleyes:

[Long Duck Dong]

Maybe I missed it, but what I don't see being addressed here is the amount of harm done to yourself, by yourself, by denying something you know you need. By extension... resentment is almost certain to bleed into a relationship.

I think many bisexual people are empathetic by nature. We tend to worry about the effect on other people more than ourselves. Trouble is, while we're worrying about that, we're either steamed or we're martyrs...bravely sacrificing our desires for the Greater Good!

Jeeze...what relationship can take that?


thats the thing... it goes both ways... there are non bisexuals that need to be safe in the knowledge that their partner loves them, wants them and needs them.... they want and desire the stability and *vanilla * aspect of a monogamous / faithful relationship with a partner they can trust.......

its a sense of security and stability for some people....

if bisexuals should not be in monogamous relationships, then the opposite applies, people that are monogamous natured, should not be made to accept a open relationship.....

why should a monogamous natured person have to sacrifice their dreams just so a bisexual can live their dream lifestyle ??? and why should a bisexual give up their desires and live a monogamous lifestyle ???

it is something that goes BOTH ways....... not just one

communication is the key, as best as possible, to give both partners a right of choice.... but as we can see in the thread, there is a underflowing current of bisexuals should not sacrifice their lifestyle for their partner, when the partner should sacrifice their lifestyle for the bisexual......

we fought hard to have equal rights and be treated the same as everybody else.... the least we can do is treat our partners with the same respect and choices that we want to have....... the trouble is, while we can compromise, in most cases with a monogamous / non monogamous natured relationship, somebody has to give up their dreams..... and if some of the comments in the thread are anything to go by, it should always be the monogamous natured person, cos if they don't, they are considered selfish, uncaring and inconsiderate.... yet what does that make the non monogamous person when they push a monogamous natured person into making a relationship a open one, at the expense of the monogamous natured person......

personally, I think that the better option is to find partners that match our own ways of thinking.... but I am no fool, love has a mind of its own and while we can control who we fuck, we can not dictate the terms on who we love......

[darkeyes]

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The reverse is also true, some partners don't forgive their partners for duping them, when they eventually find out.

A little prior-honesty with their partner might prevent them waking up one morning with the bread-knife buried between their ribs, or being served drain cleaner with their morning coffee. I'm sure Mr Bobbit will agree.

Much better to be honest with a partner, or even prospective partner, on how one wishes and intends to lead one's life.

The partner, or prospective partner, then has the option to decide if that is a lifestyle they wish to be a part of, or if their needs might be better met elsewhere, with someone else, more compatible to themselves.

You see, it's not really about sex, it's about character. Lying to a partner, or prospective partner, restricts their options. Yet the very same people, who would have no qualms about restricting their partners options, are the very first to complain if they feel their options are being restricted. :rolleyes:

Do wish u lot would get how 2 use quotations facility rite... don't like peeps gettin the impression me has sed said me has clearly not sed an otha peeps sayin summat wich wos down 2 me.. just a lil moan at 20 2 11 on a shitty Monday mornin cos some lil dork in 'is rush 2 get outa here just knocked me bloody specs outa me hand and stood on 'em. The normal Fran sweetness an light demeanor for now.. is suspended..:( it will b restored by end of break.. me fave class will wander through the door an show me kids do have brains..:) bet they would know how to use quotes on this site.. even the dork would know..;)

[æonpax]

<snip/unsnip>I think many bisexual people are empathetic by nature. We tend to worry about the effect on other people more than ourselves. Trouble is, while we're worrying about that, we're either steamed or we're martyrs...bravely sacrificing our desires for the Greater Good!<snip>

While it might be nice to generalize bisexuals as uniquely gifted individuals, unless there are studies or facts to indicate otherwise, bisexuals are absolutely no different than anyone else, regardless of sexual orientation, age, culture, beliefs, nationality, gender, race, etc, etc.

This discussion here, is interesting but ultimately, the question of morals, virtues and ethics has been raging since the time of the early Greek philosophers and has so many variables, it always end up the same...it depends on what you want to believe in. I happen to believe that the Golden Rule is about as close as anyone might get in the form of an agreement...don't ya think?

[sammie19]

I am in a committed relationship. I have the right to know who my partner is sleeping with. I have the right to know if they are gay ir bi or straight or TG. I have the right to know if they are engaging in risky behavior, what those risks are, and what they are doing to minimize those risks. I have the right to know that there is a risk of STDs (even with safER sex practices) if I allow my partner to have sexual contact with me.

I have these rights because I have the right to informed consent. Cheating, by definition, removes my ability to consent. To deny informed consent is wrong.

Your partner might leave if you tell them you are bi and want sex with men. They might do any number of things. But it is their RIGHT to be given the choice.

I find it ironic that a Canadian who has lectured on and on about rights and how Canadians are far more sensitive to civil rights than Americans is the one to advocate denying informed consent to sexual partners.

Pasa

I agree you have the right to informed consent. What I find difficult is the degree to which you think you should be informed because what you seem to infer is a vetting procedure with a veto. Even by knowing the names and or having what you believe to be personal knowledge of and even aquaintance with your partner's lovers and encounters does not guarantee knowledge of anything.

It should be sufficient for a partner to provide as far as he or she is able the guarantees regarding health and sexual practice of sex partners, not least because safer sex should be a part of ground rules agreed from the word go and each of you trusted that you stick to those agreed rules. I am not even sure that on each occasion you have the automatic right to know the sexuality of a date or an encounter.

I have no objection to the ground rules which you set out, and if they work for you all well and good, but they seem to me to expect far too much and could create almost as much friction within an open relationship as they seek to avoid. They would not work well for me and probably not for most people because of the over restrictive nature of your demands.

An open relationship works best on trust as does any other kind. As has been said,discussion and communication is always the key, but demanding much too restrictive ground rules can create almost as much pressure on a relationship as there would be if the relationship remained exclusive. Not least because it eliminates the possibility of spontaneous sexual encounters but also creates the conditions for a different kind of closed relationship to arise. What you expect from your partner doesnt eliminate trust, but it does minimise it.

[Darkside2009]

Do wish u lot would get how 2 use quotations facility rite... don't like peeps gettin the impression me has sed said me has clearly not sed an otha peeps sayin summat wich wos down 2 me.. just a lil moan at 20 2 11 on a shitty Monday mornin cos some lil dork in 'is rush 2 get outa here just knocked me bloody specs outa me hand and stood on 'em. The normal Fran sweetness an light demeanor for now.. is suspended..:( it will b restored by end of break.. me fave class will wander through the door an show me kids do have brains..:) bet they would know how to use quotes on this site.. even the dork would know..;)

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Never mind Grumpy, it could have been worse, you could have been wearing them at the time. Now go off and join Snow White and the other dwarfs for your lunch. The gall of you lecturing others on quotation when you write in that tortuous short-hand. :rolleyes:

I hope you can see well enough to drive home.

[Light_and_Dark]

Really cheating with a monogamous partner with a member of the same sex and hiding it is still a good thing to do? No matter what may be good in your eyes for the relationship it is not your right to choose for this may happen and does in most cases. (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12175)

This is my last argument on this forum thread.

[darkeyes]

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Never mind Grumpy, it could have been worse, you could have been wearing them at the time. Now go off and join Snow White and the other dwarfs for your lunch. The gall of you lecturing others on quotation when you write in that tortuous short-hand. :rolleyes:

I hope you can see well enough to drive home.

..am not a dwarf me luffly lil leprechaun.. elfen yep...am that.. but not a dwarf.. an Franspeak tortuous? Wot rot!!!.. typical.. tryin 2 disguise ya own shortcomins by bringin up the perceived shortcomins of ya accuser.. tut tut tut.. ya shud b ashamed.. Rabid Shammyone an Nicholarse Dregg will luff havin ya!!:tong:;) Now u just go dig up that potta gold an pay inta the account of sum nice gud cause or even betta lug it along an give it 2 em yasel in person cos wudn trust the banks as far as me cud thow 'em as the ole sayin goes..

C? All sweetness an lite again... an it was me readin specs as it happens, so the lil buggas can still b spotted gettin upta ther lol tricks from far end of the room or otha side a the playin fields.. drivin home will b no prob, ta!!:bigrin::bigrin:

[Darkside2009]

The quotations are appearing alright on my screen. Even the ones highlighted in orange, with any prior reference above it, with a little white arrow on a blue background to the right of the name, if one wishes to read the original post being responded to.

In the one you refer to I was responding to something Gearbox had stated. So Miss McGoo, get yourself down to your opticians, pronto, or trade in that steam-driven computer of yours for one that works.

If you ask Santa nicely, perhaps he'll bring you one. Then again, as you've been so naughty this year, perhaps not. :rolleyes:

I've just written him, asking that Sammie has her next spontaneous sexual encounter near me. I have the tickets ready to print and everything. :bigrin:

Go Sammie, go. lol

[Gearbox]

You see, it's not really about sex, it's about character. Lying to a partner, or prospective partner, restricts their options. Yet the very same people, who would have no qualms about restricting their partners options, are the very first to complain if they feel their options are being restricted.
It's about PERMISSION to have SEX, or the lack of.:rolleyes:
At the start of a relationship, rules come into play (fek knows why! But they do!). Those rules mainly restrict each others freedom to do what the Hell they want with their own genitalia. BOTH are guilty of that! Both 'cheater' and 'cheated'.
The 'cheater' ops out of that rule, but doesn't let on to the 'cheated' about it.:rolleyes:
Now that may very well be because he/she doesn't want the other to have that same freedom. But it may very well be because he/she doesn't want to be dumped for it too.
There are many possible reasons to 'cheat'! Lets not tar them all with the same brush, is all I'm saying!;)

Put yourself in Mr Bobbits shoes. Would you tell Mrs Bobbit that you want to screw around while knowing her views on extramarital sex?
If you were suddenly bisexual.....would you inform the Mrs that you want a cock up the chuff, in your mouth etc etc if you knew her views on 'gay sex' to be less than sympathetic?

Yes it's the 'right' thing to do, to let your partner know that you no longer fit their ideal partner requirements and give them the option to dump you or not.
BUT that's not as easy or straightforward as people claim. Especially if love is involved. Not all 'cheaters' are heartless bastards set out to ruin their partners life! Some are quite understandably shit scared to come clean to their partners, even though they KNOW they should.

If a 'suddenly bisexual' person came here to seek advice on how to broach the subject to his/her partner, he'd/she'd get lots of compassionate advice on how to go about that here.:)
BUT if that person was also 'cheating' he'd/she'd get a avalanche of judgemental bigots spewing their own insecurity and hate fuelled lust for vengeance out on them!:eek:
WTF is THAT about?

Is it any wonder that those 'cheaters' don't ask for advice here?
Fek me! It's on a par with asking how to rim a ladyboy on a Christian forum.:tongue:

[darkeyes]

The quotations are appearing alright on my screen. Even the ones highlighted in orange, with any prior reference above it, with a little white arrow on a blue background to the right of the name, if one wishes to read the original post being responded to.

In the one you refer to I was responding to something Gearbox had stated. So Miss McGoo, get yourself down to your opticians, pronto, or trade in that steam-driven computer of yours for one that works.

If you ask Santa nicely, perhaps he'll bring you one. Then again, as you've been so naughty this year, perhaps not. :rolleyes:

I've just written him, asking that Sammie has her next spontaneous sexual encounter near me. I have the tickets ready to print and everything. :bigrin:

Go Sammie, go. lol

I know how it works babes wich is why I prefer not 2 use it cos it can b misleadin' for those who dont... but there ya r.. summat Drew mite wanna look at wile 'e is playin around wiv the site.. wosnt annoyed at all.. cept wiv the lil gett who stood on me specs... an u copped a lil aftershock.. soz babes..:tong:

[darkeyes]

Is it any wonder that those 'cheaters' don't ask for advice here?
Fek me! It's on a par with asking how to rim a ladyboy on a Christian forum.:tongue:

Nowt 2 do wiv any judgemental or other advice from here.. why they don't is cos usually they dont give 2 hoots and will do ther own thing regardless.. some rationalise that its ok.. she/he wont find out and what she/he doesnt know wont hurt and I do love her/him really, but... that last bit is all very laudible but tosh really.. its just as selfish, just as potentially hurtful and damagin and just as potentially dangerous... toldya.. been ther, seen it an dun it much 2 me everlastin' shame...

An Darkside is right.. my partner did forgive, bless 'er, an even me x hubbie did in the end.. but lots dont.. lots don't an all hell breaks loose in ways u never imagine until it hits ya an chaos ensues... Hell hath no fury as they say... well, goes for guys 2.. scorned guys can get pretty fulla fury an all.. misery isnt just on the one whose life and dreams r shattered.. take it from me.. misery imposes itself on us an all wen we finally get the message just wtf we have done an wot it is costin' all concerned.. wreckage is pretty indiscriminate, devastatin' an viscious babes..an wots dun cant b undun...:)

..am not judgin' ne 1.. just tellin how it is...

[Gearbox]

@Darkeyes - Thank goodness your partner & ex didn't seek advice here on what to do with you!:tongue:

We ALL judge. Some quicker than others, but we ALL do it.
I don't even know your partner, why she forgave, how she got through the emotional trauma you sparked off, what her philosophy is, why she loves you etc etc etc BUT I still judge her to be kinda wise for not keeping you as a target of wrath.:tongue:
I'm pretty sure (a good guess anyway) that she'd rather just love you.

I've never met anybody that wrath did any good for. We're all capable of it, and we never ask to try it. But usually some clever soul gives us the opportunity to experience it at some point. Then it's up to us to deal with it, or carry it around.
Lets face it! 'Cheaters' are Human, and not the living Saint variety! They fek up, and all parties pay the price! Maybe they don't care? And maybe they do?
Their not all demons in g-strings. They are not the only kind that fuels wrath.:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

@Darkeyes - Thank goodness your partner & ex didn't seek advice here on what to do with you!:tongue:

We ALL judge. Some quicker than others, but we ALL do it.
I don't even know your partner, why she forgave, how she got through the emotional trauma you sparked off, what her philosophy is, why she loves you etc etc etc BUT I still judge her to be kinda wise for not keeping you as a target of wrath.:tongue:
I'm pretty sure (a good guess anyway) that she'd rather just love you.

I've never met anybody that wrath did any good for. We're all capable of it, and we never ask to try it. But usually some clever soul gives us the opportunity to experience it at some point. Then it's up to us to deal with it, or carry it around.
Lets face it! 'Cheaters' are Human, and not the living Saint variety! They fek up, and all parties pay the price! Maybe they don't care? And maybe they do?
Their not all demons in g-strings. They are not the only kind that fuels wrath.:rolleyes:

Nope.. they're not all demons.. some are but most are normally pretty decent in the normal way of things.. thoughtless, selfish, greedy and pretty stupid though..at least when it comes to the pleasures of the flesh.. but you're right.. we are all human and it is that human frailty that often blights our lives. It is my frailty and flaws of character which prevent me from judging those who have sexually been found wanting in respect of their fidelity to partner.. my words are intended not as condemnation but as salutory warnings.. who am I to judge? What right? None and so I do not.. but I would fail in my duty as friend were I not to warn of what can be.. things which I have learned out of my own experience.. I may not be religious but one thing which I frequently state when people hector others about their frailties and flaws.. "There but for the Grace of God go I...".. another reason not to judge..

..and I too am glad she forgave.. although I think she is finding it harder to forgive my influence on her older daughter.. my adopted daughter.. who, lucky girl is growing up just like me:bigrin:.. apart from her obvious interest in lads:(.. I'm cool with that.. honest:)..the younger girl is growing up like her mum.. cool, composed for someone so young and every bit as lovable as her mum.. and cheeky as fuck!!!!:eek: Just like u no hoo!!!!

..where u and I may diverge is on whether wrath does good or not.. as a form of anger it can be a force for good by allowing us to get things off our chest and begin the process of relieving stress and healing.. of course it depends on whether we can control that wrath or let it control us..many never learn the trick.. Kate was never really destructive in her anger although it did lead her to make a few bad mistakes in her life after we separated..one of which conversely resulted in the most wonderful mistake.. but there is no doubt it was serious wrath and I copped it.. and deservedly so. But in the end.. once the anger had cooled it had not poisoned.. on the contrary by its end it had contributed to bringing us to where we are now..

Unfortunately, not everyone can be quite so lucky as me and have a Kate to forgive as she has... and never once throw it in my face to boot.. not once... but dont think she is a doormat.. if she was, I doubt she would have ever gotten as far as my bed far less under my skin as she has... my pet name for her is Naggy Knickers... should give u a clue she is no doormat..:tong:

..and where u are wrong is she did get advice from a few peeps on site... different times babes.. different peeps.. far less judgmental and generally far nicer than now and much less negative.. but times change huh?

[Darkside2009]

It's about PERMISSION to have SEX, or the lack of.:rolleyes:
At the start of a relationship, rules come into play (fek knows why! But they do!). Those rules mainly restrict each others freedom to do what the Hell they want with their own genitalia. BOTH are guilty of that! Both 'cheater' and 'cheated'.
The 'cheater' ops out of that rule, but doesn't let on to the 'cheated' about it.:rolleyes:
Now that may very well be because he/she doesn't want the other to have that same freedom. But it may very well be because he/she doesn't want to be dumped for it too.
There are many possible reasons to 'cheat'! Lets not tar them all with the same brush, is all I'm saying!;)

Put yourself in Mr Bobbits shoes. Would you tell Mrs Bobbit that you want to screw around while knowing her views on extramarital sex?
If you were suddenly bisexual.....would you inform the Mrs that you want a cock up the chuff, in your mouth etc etc if you knew her views on 'gay sex' to be less than sympathetic?

Yes it's the 'right' thing to do, to let your partner know that you no longer fit their ideal partner requirements and give them the option to dump you or not.
BUT that's not as easy or straightforward as people claim. Especially if love is involved. Not all 'cheaters' are heartless bastards set out to ruin their partners life! Some are quite understandably shit scared to come clean to their partners, even though they KNOW they should.

If a 'suddenly bisexual' person came here to seek advice on how to broach the subject to his/her partner, he'd/she'd get lots of compassionate advice on how to go about that here.:)
BUT if that person was also 'cheating' he'd/she'd get a avalanche of judgemental bigots spewing their own insecurity and hate fuelled lust for vengeance out on them!:eek:
WTF is THAT about?

Is it any wonder that those 'cheaters' don't ask for advice here?
Fek me! It's on a par with asking how to rim a ladyboy on a Christian forum.:tongue:

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Let's be honest here, there are not many reasons to cheat, there is but one, selfishness.

If you want to have casual sex with another person and they are a consenting adult that is fine. That involves just the two of you, if you are in a relationship with a third person, it is not so simple. They have feelings and emotions too, which must be considered, since you are putting them at risk. Not just from physical infection, but from the emotional harm you may cause them.

If instead of physically assaulting you when they found out you had cheated on them, that partner went out to the kitchen and swallowed a full bottle of paracetamol to end the emotional pain you had caused them, would you still feel it was alright to cheat.

You may not have envisaged that happening when you got the urge to cheat on your partner, but it is a possibility.

Now, I understand that people's attitudes may change over the course of time, and that they may wish to explore other avenues. Most will consign it to that wish list of things never achieved, like being rich, or having sex with Michelle Feiffer.

Some will be honest and discuss their feelings with their partner. In which case the partner might support them in this new found venture, or the partner might decide, if I no longer fulfil your needs I will look elsewhere, and we will part on amicable terms. Just as companies dissolve a partnership when it no longer suits the interests of all concerned.

Or we arrive at the cheater's way, who has so little regard for his/her partner, or their feelings. All that concerns him/her are their own selfish pleasure. To them their own selfish desires outweigh the risk of the pain they might cause.

An edifying spectacle? Not really. Yet you expect me to pat them on the back for it and say good on you.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the World does not revolve around you and your pleasures, there are other people to consider. They too have hopes, dreams they aspire to, and you do not have carte blanche to trample on them.

It's a simple enough concept that most people seem to grasp without too much difficulty, then again there are others who can't see any further than the end of their nose.

Foresight to them, might as well be a foreign country. :rolleyes:

[Darkside2009]

Quote Gearbox:-

'BUT if that person was also 'cheating' he'd/she'd get a avalanche of judgemental bigots spewing their own insecurity and hate fuelled lust for vengeance out on them!
WTF is THAT about? '
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What indeed? You might want to look inside your own mind for the answer to that one. I had thought everyone on this thread was offering their own opinion on the topic under discussion.

However, it seems if we disagree with you, we are judgemental bigots. Personally, I left insecurity behind in my teens. As to hate-fuelled lust for vengeance, I've said before on other threads that I have no time for liars. However if someone makes a mess of their relationship that is their problem, all I can do is offer advice and opinions. I will not be tracking them down to enact some kind of vendetta on behalf of the aggrieved party, so you can send your febrile imagination safely to bed. :rolleyes:

[Long Duck Dong]

all I am seeing in much of the thread in regards to cheating supportive posts, is a common factor

a relationship / marriage is us, its we, its both, our rights, our choices, our compromises... until you hit the sex part, then its my rights, my wants, my needs, my desires, my choice....... and with people that were cheated on... its what happened to my rights, my choices, my feelings, my emotions, my say in OUR relationship and my right to know......

I do agree gearbox, that there are partners out there that do not accept alternative sexualities....and unfortunately thats a aspect of life that we will have to learn to accept as part of the good and the bad of life cos we can not always have it our own way......

honestly, its gonna be the same in the forum... there will be the cheated on and the cheaters.....and there will always be different opinions and points of view....... and differing levels of respect for people........

one of the things I really respect about you, gearbox, is that you defend your stance on cheating and at the same time, you have stated that you would not put yourself in a situation where you were forced to cheat........ and that is something that really stands out to me, cos that can mean making some hard and risky choices in ya life when it comes to your rights versus a relationship / marriage.....

[Rhevan]

all I am seeing in much of the thread in regards to cheating supportive posts, is a common factor

a relationship / marriage is us, its we, its both, our rights, our choices, our compromises... until you hit the sex part, then its my rights, my wants, my needs, my desires, my choice....... and with people that were cheated on... its what happened to my rights, my choices, my feelings, my emotions, my say in OUR relationship and my right to know......

I do agree gearbox, that there are partners out there that do not accept alternative sexualities....and unfortunately thats a aspect of life that we will have to learn to accept as part of the good and the bad of life cos we can not always have it our own way......

honestly, its gonna be the same in the forum... there will be the cheated on and the cheaters.....and there will always be different opinions and points of view....... and differing levels of respect for people........

one of the things I really respect about you, gearbox, is that you defend your stance on cheating and at the same time, you have stated that you would not put yourself in a situation where you were forced to cheat........ and that is something that really stands out to me, cos that can mean making some hard and risky choices in ya life when it comes to your rights versus a relationship / marriage.....

This is a truly amazing post and comes very close to matching my views on things. I respect more those that cheat that try to keep out of situations where cheating is inevitable than those that say "fuck the partner of my target, they don't matter, it's all about me" I try to keep myself out of situations and I regret the cheating I have done in the past. But I am also trying to be true to myself and treat others the way I want to be treated. I do not want to cheat when I don't want to be cheated on. :2cents:

[tenni]

re post 137
"This discussion here, is interesting but ultimately, the question of morals, virtues and ethics has been raging since the time of the early Greek philosophers and has so many variables, it always end up the same...it depends on what you want to believe in. I happen to believe that the Golden Rule is about as close as anyone might get in the form of an agreement...don't ya think?"

aeonpax
Oh, I also believe in the Golden Rule but it really is only in our hands whether we follow it. We can not get everyone else to follow the Golden Rule.

What I am able to empathize with is what I read just the other day on another bi site. A forty year old bisexual man who has had sex twice in ten years and during those ten years had children born from those two times. His wife refuses to have sex or go to a counsellor. She is practicing the Golden Rule because she doesn't want to have sex. He on the other hand is being cheated by his wife imo. Others may condemn him but if he is becoming aware of bisexual options, I will not judge him negatively at all. (This is different imo from stating that he is right to cheat). I will not condemn him. If you don't believe that the wife is a cheater, that is fine with me. To each their own opinion.

Post
I will not enter into a long debate about this wife. I will repeat that she is cheating in her marriage. This is quite different about if he goes outside of the marriage for sex. They may both be wrong. I will not sit in judgement of him. I appear to sit in judgement of her for refusing to go to a marriage counsellor and not resolving this sexual aspect of their marriage. Then again, I've only heard his side. I have heard this story many times though and as a sexual bisexual man I empathize with him. As a bisexual man I hope but we don't get some posters to be able to support him and only condemn him. That is not support in caring for another bisexual man.

[tenni]

So it is being questioned and argued with that u object to.. they do it to me and just about everyone else regularly.. don't bitch about safety...this is about debate and freedom of speech.... if u cant take the heat as they say...:rolleyes:

darkeyes
You have read my posts for over two years. Do you honestly believe that I am afraid of debate?

No goddess, you missed something in my post where I felt vulnerable releasing that information and not sure about how it would be taken. For me it was personal and for you it was part of an argument that I was "too sensitive" to accept criticism. For my perspective I felt attacked or criticized yes inappropriately. I may have been wrong as to the intention and that poster may not have intended it to be an attack. But that is how I felt. Would you tell a woman who presented herself as timid and express doubts and fears as she disclosed information that she should she should feel safe if she felt attacked? right or wrong?

You know not all people disclose in a visible timid state quivering and whimpering. A lot of guys just do not act that way goddess with a tarnish.

[Long Duck Dong]

re post 137
"This discussion here, is interesting but ultimately, the question of morals, virtues and ethics has been raging since the time of the early Greek philosophers and has so many variables, it always end up the same...it depends on what you want to believe in. I happen to believe that the Golden Rule is about as close as anyone might get in the form of an agreement...don't ya think?"

aeonpax
Oh, I also believe in the Golden Rule but it really is only in our hands whether we follow it. We can not get everyone else to follow the Golden Rule.

What I am able to empathize with is what I read just the other day on another bi site. A forty year old bisexual man who has had sex twice in ten years and during those ten years had children born from those two times. His wife refuses to have sex or go to a counsellor. She is practicing the Golden Rule because she doesn't want to have sex. He on the other hand is being cheated by his wife imo. Others may condemn him but if he is becoming aware of bisexual options, I will not judge him negatively at all. I will not condemn him. If you don't believe that the wife is a cheater, that is fine with me. To each their own opinion.

the wife is wrong and a cheater for exercising her rights with her body ????

what is it with the male thinking that a woman has no rights with her body in a marriage, but he has all the rights with his.....

its a bit like the argument that part of marriage is the right to have sex with a marriage partner, but a partner has no rights to say no to extramartial affairs.....

I quess I was wrong.... I thought the fight for LGBT rights was the fight for a end to discrimination and the right to be treated equally and the same as everybody else...... I never realised it was actually the fight to be able to treat everybody else like they are not LGBT and entitled to respect and understanding and the right to discriminate against anybody that doesn't let us do what ever we want, regardless of who it hurts

[darkeyes]

darkeyes
You have read my posts for over two years. Do you honestly believe that I am afraid of debate?

No goddess, you missed something in my post where I felt vulnerable releasing that information and not sure about how it would be taken. For me it was personal and for you it was part of an argument that I was "too sensitive" to accept criticism. For my perspective I felt attacked or criticized yes inappropriately. I may have been wrong as to the intention and that poster may not have intended it to be an attack. But that is how I felt. Would you tell a woman who presented herself as timid and express doubts and fears as she disclosed information that she should she should feel safe if she felt attacked? right or wrong?

You know not all people disclose in a visible timid state quivering and whimpering. A lot of guys just do not act that way goddess with a tarnish.

I picked my words quite carefully.. I did not say afraid.. I said object.. and when we involve ourselves in debate we will often feel inappropriately attacked and criticised.. it is the nature of debate and of free speech.. and when I see anyone who is in my view inappropriately attacked I defend them because there are those who are thick and insensitive.. that too however, is in the nature of freedom of speech..

We all expose our vulnerablity when contributing to debate.. some of us feel it more than others and some handle it more easily, but very few do not feel it.. I certainly do.. that is in the nature of our humanity..

..and with a tarnish? Tenni babes.. many on .com and in the wider world will deny it..but every single one of us has a tarnish..that too is in the nature of being human...

[tenni]

I picked my words quite carefully.. I did not say afraid.. I said object.. and when we involve ourselves in debate we will often feel inappropriately attacked and criticised.. it is the nature of debate and of free speech.. and when I see anyone who is in my view inappropriately attacked I defend them because there are those who are thick and insensitive.. that too however, is in the nature of freedom of speech..

We all expose our vulnerablity when contributing to debate.. some of us feel it more than others and some handle it more easily, but very few do not feel it.. I certainly do.. that is in the nature of our humanity..

..and with a tarnish? Tenni babes.. many on .com and in the wider world will deny it..but every single one of us has a tarnish..that too is in the nature of being human...

There may be some truth in what you write. However, you are placing yourself in a position of judgement. That is a main point that I am trying to make as well as monogamy is not the only and/or default mode for many bisexuals. I was stating that I did not feel safe. It is you who decided to challenge me about my feelings. You are attempting to determine what I may feel or not feel. wtf:bigrin:

Yes, I know that tarnish thing. I know that you did not chose to be made a goddess. I thrust it upon you. (in jest ) ;)

But a point is that like myself some bisexual men do not feel safe on this site due to judgmental posters. That's a pity if not a shame. However, these discussions do seem to be exhibiting less screams from non bisexuals and the rampant moralizing is toning down. There may be hope that being a flawed bisexual may eventually feel safe on a bisexual site.

[darkeyes]

It is you who decided to challenge me about my feelings. You are attempting to determine what I may feel or not feel. wtf:bigrin:

I do not challenge you in your feelings at all, but do question one important part of them.. as to whether I am attempting to determine your feelings, no, that isn't the case.. but open your eyes to the consequences of that very important part.. and allow yourself to determine your feelings.. which you already have I think..

..and judge you? Perhaps, but such a light judgement if it is judgement at all.. more of an idea and the destruction it can cause than of you the person.

[Rhevan]

re post 137
"This discussion here, is interesting but ultimately, the question of morals, virtues and ethics has been raging since the time of the early Greek philosophers and has so many variables, it always end up the same...it depends on what you want to believe in. I happen to believe that the Golden Rule is about as close as anyone might get in the form of an agreement...don't ya think?"

aeonpax
Oh, I also believe in the Golden Rule but it really is only in our hands whether we follow it. We can not get everyone else to follow the Golden Rule.

What I am able to empathize with is what I read just the other day on another bi site. A forty year old bisexual man who has had sex twice in ten years and during those ten years had children born from those two times. His wife refuses to have sex or go to a counsellor. She is practicing the Golden Rule because she doesn't want to have sex. He on the other hand is being cheated by his wife imo. Others may condemn him but if he is becoming aware of bisexual options, I will not judge him negatively at all. (This is different imo from stating that he is right to cheat). I will not condemn him. If you don't believe that the wife is a cheater, that is fine with me. To each their own opinion.

Post
I will not enter into a long debate about this wife. I will repeat that she is cheating in her marriage. This is quite different about if he goes outside of the marriage for sex. They may both be wrong. I will not sit in judgement of him. I appear to sit in judgement of her for refusing to go to a marriage counsellor and not resolving this sexual aspect of their marriage. Then again, I've only heard his side. I have heard this story many times though and as a sexual bisexual man I empathize with him. As a bisexual man I hope but we don't get some posters to be able to support him and only condemn him. That is not support in caring for another bisexual man.

I would like to actually know the entire story before I form any opinions. From what you said the sex was twice and children resulted from both. Perhaps the matter might be solved with a condom? There may be a lot of reasons that weren't disclosed but again it's about any sex not just same sex. He must really love her to be with her for 10 years and only have sex twice or there is more to the story that explains things. Is she a lottery winner or something, because something is making him stay when there is no physical aspect going on.

[Gearbox]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's be honest here, there are not many reasons to cheat, there is but one, selfishness.

If you want to have casual sex with another person and they are a consenting adult that is fine. That involves just the two of you, if you are in a relationship with a third person, it is not so simple. They have feelings and emotions too, which must be considered, since you are putting them at risk. Not just from physical infection, but from the emotional harm you may cause them.

If instead of physically assaulting you when they found out you had cheated on them, that partner went out to the kitchen and swallowed a full bottle of paracetamol to end the emotional pain you had caused them, would you still feel it was alright to cheat.

You may not have envisaged that happening when you got the urge to cheat on your partner, but it is a possibility.

Now, I understand that people's attitudes may change over the course of time, and that they may wish to explore other avenues. Most will consign it to that wish list of things never achieved, like being rich, or having sex with Michelle Feiffer.

Some will be honest and discuss their feelings with their partner. In which case the partner might support them in this new found venture, or the partner might decide, if I no longer fulfil your needs I will look elsewhere, and we will part on amicable terms. Just as companies dissolve a partnership when it no longer suits the interests of all concerned.

Or we arrive at the cheater's way, who has so little regard for his/her partner, or their feelings. All that concerns him/her are their own selfish pleasure. To them their own selfish desires outweigh the risk of the pain they might cause.

An edifying spectacle? Not really. Yet you expect me to pat them on the back for it and say good on you.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but the World does not revolve around you and your pleasures, there are other people to consider. They too have hopes, dreams they aspire to, and you do not have carte blanche to trample on them.

It's a simple enough concept that most people seem to grasp without too much difficulty, then again there are others who can't see any further than the end of their nose.

Foresight to them, might as well be a foreign country. :rolleyes:
Dear me! All that because I think that some cheaters might be nice.:bigrin:
Suddenly I'm a cheater that loves cheating and highly recommend it to everybody else so I can get my end away with them?:rolleyes:

No I've never cheated, nor advised anybody to cheat, nor congratulate them on the marvellous job they do! I just don't agree with snubbing them here is all. That is bigotry and as with any other, not my cup of tea. If by not blaming them for being Human puts me in the same category for you, then that's your prerogative.;)

I don't see cheating as clear cut as you. I might be completely wrong there? But I don't know everything about it, so it's not clear for me.
I also don't get how it's not acceptable to be a selfish sex seeker, but acceptable to be emotionally traumatised by it.
That is something that I find very eerie and unhealthy. It's as if you should be expected to suffer psychological trauma and frowned upon if you don't!:eek:

The way you describe cheated lovers acting out violent revenge or self harming to 'ease the pain', makes me wonder if you don't see a bit of a problem there. As if that's all 'part of the course' on being cheated on, and needs no more understanding than 'they were cheated on'.
Maybe some kind of prevention could help avoid getting into that state, besides relying on the partner to not kick it off?
Because we all know how dubious it is to rely on partners to 'do the right thing'. We can only count on ourselves to keep us stable after all.

Any suggestions?:)

[tenni]

I would like to actually know the entire story before I form any opinions. From what you said the sex was twice and children resulted from both. Perhaps the matter might be solved with a condom? There may be a lot of reasons that weren't disclosed but again it's about any sex not just same sex. He must really love her to be with her for 10 years and only have sex twice or there is more to the story that explains things. Is she a lottery winner or something, because something is making him stay when there is no physical aspect going on.

I don't have the answers to your questions about this particular situation. I do notice a desire to figure it out and then speculate or fill in where you do not have the answer. It is not uncommon for men to go without sex from several years up to this ten situation in longer term marriages. They remain in the relationship for a variety of reasons. I've heard them state that they do love their wife and other than the lack of sex their relationship is good. I've heard them state that they stay for the children. I've heard them state that they stay for economic reasons. As far as same sex attraction resulting from no sex marriages, yes that does happen as well. Divorced men past the age of 40 or 50 sometimes decide to have sex with other men as a simplier form of release than getting involved with a woman with all the complexities of a "male/female relationship". Some are NST one time and some are fuck buddies on going. It is not a stretch for me to see men living in sexless marriages also take the same route with other men. They may or may not have thought about it before.

[void()]

"Some bisexual men do not feel safe on this site due to judgmental posters."



Posting Rules:
Generally I am not a "rules person", but experience with various internet communities has taught me that rules are necessary, even on a site that is all about about sexual freedom such as Bisexual.com. So here they are:
1. Don't post your personal ad here. They just clutter up the forums. By far the best thing to do if you are looking to meet people is create a quality personal ad under your "My Account" control panel. These ads then show up highlighted to people in your area.
2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person.
3. Sexual freedom is what it's all about, but even it should have limits - discussions of non-consensual sex, violence and sex, or sex involving children are not welcome here, will be promptly deleted, and the poster may be banned.
4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten.
- Drew

"attempting to determine what I may feel or not feel"


You expressed an idea. You expressed this idea, in your opinion was good, just. Others here, in their opinions find the idea bad, unjust. Those others have challenged the idea you presented, your opinion of the idea.

It is called persuasive discussion. Others seek altering your opinion of an idea. This sort of discussion is encouraged here. Despite my own dislike of it for valid reasoning.

Big circular argument which ultimately goes nowhere and accomplishes nil.

If that merits feeling "unsafe" consider yourself further ignored. Discussion causing one to feel unsafe as such implies more is wrong than can be broached here. May consider seeking professional help.

Now, I will feel unsafe to converse with you, fearing I'll make you feel unsafe. It may sound quite ludicrous. Recall it was by your hand. Again, professional help can offer wonders at times.

[Gearbox]

@Darkeyes- Thanks for post 145 where you explained things. I won't spew compliments cos it'll only make you blush!:bigrin:


all I am seeing in much of the thread in regards to cheating supportive posts, is a common factor

a relationship / marriage is us, its we, its both, our rights, our choices, our compromises... until you hit the sex part, then its my rights, my wants, my needs, my desires, my choice....... and with people that were cheated on... its what happened to my rights, my choices, my feelings, my emotions, my say in OUR relationship and my right to know......

I do agree gearbox, that there are partners out there that do not accept alternative sexualities....and unfortunately thats a aspect of life that we will have to learn to accept as part of the good and the bad of life cos we can not always have it our own way......

honestly, its gonna be the same in the forum... there will be the cheated on and the cheaters.....and there will always be different opinions and points of view....... and differing levels of respect for people........

one of the things I really respect about you, gearbox, is that you defend your stance on cheating and at the same time, you have stated that you would not put yourself in a situation where you were forced to cheat........ and that is something that really stands out to me, cos that can mean making some hard and risky choices in ya life when it comes to your rights versus a relationship / marriage.....
Once again, I am not an avid supporter of cheating. It's the cheaters themselves that I support as people. What they get up to in or out of whomever's bedroom is nothing to do with me. What rules they have with another person has nothing to do with me either.
I'm not a relationship policeman.:bigrin:

Yes a relationship is all about the 'Us', and not the 'me' or 'you'. And when one of them realises that the 'Us' has more say about 'My' genitalia, 'My' sexual exploration, 'My' freedom etc etc things go tits up for the 'Us' bit.
Is that a huge surprise? Is it a realisation that the vast majority of those in a monogamous relationship don't come to at some point when the Honeymoon period is over?

I don't advise monogamy, much the same as I don't advise cheating. But your right, people can chose these alternative lifestyles, and good luck to them.
I'm single and staying that way until somebody doesn't see me as a risk to their universe. Not much luck there though.:eek:

[darkeyes]

@Darkeyes- Thanks for post 145 where you explained things. I won't spew compliments cos it'll only make you blush!:bigrin:





*laffs*.. and I blush ever so easily hun...

I am honestly trying not to judge anyone.. which is harder than we think.. we are all judgemental you are right in that, and I have said it myself in the past, but in this I am trying so very hard because of my own life... having seen and caused such hurt and devastation.. but I do try not to judge, and certainly do not condemn for circumstances can and do arise over which we have little or no control..it does not excuse us our selfishness and greed, or our weakness and the harm we do, but no one is entirely immune Gearbox, no one, however much they think they are perfect creatures.. we can all fall.. and when I look around the world I inhabit, the people I know and have known, friends I have and at myself, it appears to me, if they do not quite fall, at least more stumble than don't...

[bityme]

From post 152
Oh, I also believe in the Golden Rule but it really is only in our hands whether we follow it. We can not get everyone else to follow the Golden Rule.

What I am able to empathize with is what I read just the other day on another bi site. A forty year old bisexual man who has had sex twice in ten years and during those ten years had children born from those two times. His wife refuses to have sex or go to a counsellor. She is practicing the Golden Rule because she doesn't want to have sex. He on the other hand is being cheated by his wife imo. Others may condemn him but if he is becoming aware of bisexual options, I will not judge him negatively at all. (This is different imo from stating that he is right to cheat). I will not condemn him. If you don't believe that the wife is a cheater, that is fine with me. To each their own opinion.

Post
I will not enter into a long debate about this wife. I will repeat that she is cheating in her marriage. This is quite different about if he goes outside of the marriage for sex. They may both be wrong. I will not sit in judgement of him. I appear to sit in judgement of her for refusing to go to a marriage counsellor and not resolving this sexual aspect of their marriage. Then again, I've only heard his side. I have heard this story many times though and as a sexual bisexual man I empathize with him. As a bisexual man I hope but we don't get some posters to be able to support him and only condemn him. That is not support in caring for another bisexual man.

From Post 160
I don't have the answers to your questions about this particular situation. I do notice a desire to figure it out and then speculate or fill in where you do not have the answer. It is not uncommon for men to go without sex from several years up to this ten situation in longer term marriages. They remain in the relationship for a variety of reasons. I've heard them state that they do love their wife and other than the lack of sex their relationship is good. I've heard them state that they stay for the children. I've heard them state that they stay for economic reasons. As far as same sex attraction resulting from no sex marriages, yes that does happen as well. Divorced men past the age of 40 or 50 sometimes decide to have sex with other men as a simplier form of release than getting involved with a woman with all the complexities of a "male/female relationship". Some are NST one time and some are fuck buddies on going. It is not a stretch for me to see men living in sexless marriages also take the same route with other men. They may or may not have thought about it before.

What a good idea! "The Golden Rule."

Wouldn't it be great if everyone subscribed to it. Anyone is a sexless marriage or discovering their bisexuality, or any other need, not being fulfilled by their partner could disclose it knowing that the only question would be: "If I had the same or similar need, would you allow me to satisfy it elsewhere?" It's like the old saying, "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Too many relationships fail because the parties grow apart and no longer pay enough attention to each other's needs.

There are some successes, however. I just had a conversation with a couple who I met several years ago. They had visited from another state, Following that first meeting, the wife was able to accept the husband's bi side. A year later, my fiancee joined us and the wife's curiosity was satisfied, resulting in her own acceptance of her bi side. They now have a relationship that they say is more solid then ever and their improved communication has improved many other areas of their life together.

As you point out, many people have good relationships they don't want to leave for a variety of reasons. It's a shame that the issue of sex becomes such and deal breaker. It seems like couples can resolve almost any problem they encounter, but when it comes to sex there is little to no give and take.

I wonder if a bumper sticker saying: "The Golden Rule Works" in Bi Pride colors would make people think. Get a stack of them and hit every car in a parking lot on sale day. How good would that be?

Pappy

[Darkside2009]

Dear me! All that because I think that some cheaters might be nice.:bigrin:
Suddenly I'm a cheater that loves cheating and highly recommend it to everybody else so I can get my end away with them?:rolleyes:

No I've never cheated, nor advised anybody to cheat, nor congratulate them on the marvellous job they do! I just don't agree with snubbing them here is all. That is bigotry and as with any other, not my cup of tea. If by not blaming them for being Human puts me in the same category for you, then that's your prerogative.;)

I don't see cheating as clear cut as you. I might be completely wrong there? But I don't know everything about it, so it's not clear for me.
I also don't get how it's not acceptable to be a selfish sex seeker, but acceptable to be emotionally traumatised by it.
That is something that I find very eerie and unhealthy. It's as if you should be expected to suffer psychological trauma and frowned upon if you don't!:eek:

The way you describe cheated lovers acting out violent revenge or self harming to 'ease the pain', makes me wonder if you don't see a bit of a problem there. As if that's all 'part of the course' on being cheated on, and needs no more understanding than 'they were cheated on'.
Maybe some kind of prevention could help avoid getting into that state, besides relying on the partner to not kick it off?
Because we all know how dubious it is to rely on partners to 'do the right thing'. We can only count on ourselves to keep us stable after all.

Any suggestions?:)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, I would suggest you refrain from becoming involved in any emotional relationships, involving either love or trust. Your responses indicate you are ill-equipped to deal with them.

Stick to casual sex or masturbation and you will be fine, no complications for you to understand.

[tenni]

"No I've never cheated, nor advised anybody to cheat, nor congratulate them on the marvellous job they do! I just don't agree with snubbing them here is all."
"I don't see cheating as clear cut as you..... I don't know everything about it, so it's not clear for me."

Well stated Gear.

I have been cheated by lovers both male and female. I wonder how many actually learn and accept their own role as to why their partner cheated?

I wonder how many blame rather than accept that they had a role in being cheated on? We are all human and flawed...well many of us recognize this.

I notice on another bisexual site how this issue of being bisexual and cheating or wanting to cheat are dealt with differently than many on this site react. There is no tone of judging when a poster states that they cheated or are tempted to cheat. The conversation is more about the bisexual rather than the partner. There is no attempt to persuade another poster of the "correct" way.

[Long Duck Dong]

@Darkeyes- Thanks for post 145 where you explained things. I won't spew compliments cos it'll only make you blush!:bigrin:


Once again, I am not an avid supporter of cheating. It's the cheaters themselves that I support as people. What they get up to in or out of whomever's bedroom is nothing to do with me. What rules they have with another person has nothing to do with me either.
I'm not a relationship policeman.:bigrin:

Yes a relationship is all about the 'Us', and not the 'me' or 'you'. And when one of them realises that the 'Us' has more say about 'My' genitalia, 'My' sexual exploration, 'My' freedom etc etc things go tits up for the 'Us' bit.
Is that a huge surprise? Is it a realisation that the vast majority of those in a monogamous relationship don't come to at some point when the Honeymoon period is over?

I don't advise monogamy, much the same as I don't advise cheating. But your right, people can chose these alternative lifestyles, and good luck to them.
I'm single and staying that way until somebody doesn't see me as a risk to their universe. Not much luck there though.:eek:

I have seen many relationships and marriages fail cos of people wanting to live the * I * lifestyle in a *us * situation.... and its not cos of the sexual things,... its mainly cos they enter into the relationships and marriages, with the * its me and them, not US and ourselves * type thinking.....

monogamy.... its a take it or leave it situation for many people, but honestly to me, what I see is a lot of people that want a partner, a relationship, a marriage and all of the freedom and rights of a single person, none of the issues of compromising or restrictions that can come with marriage..... and thats why monogamy doesn't work for most people.......

[Pasadenacpl2]

.

I have been cheated by lovers both male and female. I wonder how many actually learn and accept their own role as to why their partner cheated?

I wonder how many blame rather than accept that they had a role in being cheated on? We are all human and flawed...well many of us recognize this.

I notice on another bisexual site how this issue of being bisexual and cheating or wanting to cheat are dealt with differently than many on this site react. There is no tone of judging when a poster states that they cheated or are tempted to cheat. The conversation is more about the bisexual rather than the partner. There is no attempt to persuade another poster of the "correct" way.

Umm...wait. What?

So, if I cheat, my wife is partly responsible for it? How does that work, exactly? Did she drive me to sticking my dick in someone else?

No. No one is responsible for your actions but you. Blaming the victim is bullshit. If you can't be honest, then that's your problem. If your wife will leave you for being honest, then you are not in the right relationship. If you choose to stay in that relationship, then that's YOUR choice.

Sorry, but your ideas on morality are repugnant. I suppose the rape victim was asking for it by dressing like that, too.

Pasa

[tenni]

"Umm...wait. What?

So, if I cheat, my wife is partly responsible for it? How does that work, exactly? Did she drive me to sticking my dick in someone else?

No. No one is responsible for your actions but you. Blaming the victim is bullshit. If you can't be honest, then that's your problem. If your wife will leave you for being honest, then you are not in the right relationship. If you choose to stay in that relationship, then that's YOUR choice.

Sorry, but your ideas on morality are repugnant. I suppose the rape victim was asking for it by dressing like that, too.

Pasa"

Uh...
Well, I am speaking as what you call a victim. I agree that no one is responsible for my actions but me. I made mistakes. Both my former lovers made mistakes. I acknowledge that I made mistakes. Neither told me (for some time) that they had cheated and in one case broke a promise. That was with the guy as it was an assumption in the m/f relationship on my part. I should have known but was in denial about things. That's all that I'm going to disclose about my situation.

[Long Duck Dong]

I notice on another bisexual site how this issue of being bisexual and cheating or wanting to cheat are dealt with differently than many on this site react. There is no tone of judging when a poster states that they cheated or are tempted to cheat. The conversation is more about the bisexual rather than the partner. There is no attempt to persuade another poster of the "correct" way.

you would get banned for daring to say anything that is not deemed to be acceptable on one of the sites you talk about, the one that has the bi male only section.... so of course members are going to only say things that are one sided and keeping within the rules and guidelines......

in this site, you are allowed to have a opinion on a issue and thats why opinions on issues are so broad and we do not have the high ban rate of the other site.... something that seems to not be mentioned a lot about the other site with the bi male only section

[tenni]

LDD
I can understand how you see that perspective and in some cases I can understand how you get that perspective. The site is very strictly monitored with an insistence to follow the rules.

Opinions are permitted and reflect an interesting empathetic brotherhood approach. Men seem to feel safe enough to open up and I have read perspectives that show great compassion, honesty and an admittance of being flawed and some really intimate male grooming ideas:bigrin:. There are quite a few younger men on that site who express an open perspective to sexuality. Each site has strengths and weaknesses.

[Long Duck Dong]

social group isolation empathy..... works on the same principal as churches.... people are more likely to feel safe if they are in a group of like minded people that enforce their own feelings and opinions......

put bi males in a bi male group here, and moderate the group to stop non bi males from being in the group, the same pattern will start to emerge, a bi male supportive aspect will emerge and slowly but surely you will start to create a atmosphere where the bi males reinforce the idea that they are right with their actions and that their cheating is acceptable, justified and fine...... and when their non bi male partners disagree with things, the bi male will return to the site, time and time again, seeing that the majority of bi males will agree with him, not his partner, therefore his partner is wrong and should change their ways to match what is deemed to be acceptable by the bi male group......

people will always find it safer to post in groups where there is already a * forced * supportive stance and a limit opposing voices, cos the other members will enforce the idea their members are right....... same as in churches....

[tenni]

" slowly but surely you will start to create a atmosphere where the bi males reinforce the idea that they are right with their actions and that their cheating is acceptable, justified and fine...... and when their non bi male partners disagree with things, the bi male will return to the site, time and time again, seeing that the majority of bi males will agree with him, not his partner, therefore his partner is wrong and should change their ways to match what is deemed to be acceptable by the bi male group......"

This is wonderful example of a run on sentence and it seems to me to be an intolerant judgmental assumption and perhaps animosity. I'm not certain but yes, a poster may be banned if he shows intolerance, being judgmental of others and animosity towards others.

Not one of the bi males agrees with cheating. There is a positive atmosphere and support for bisexual men who struggle with their life's challenges.

[void()]

Believe what LDD was struggling to say was, "tell a lie long enough, it becomes truth."

In this case a lie that cheating is correct, amplified by likewise propaganda of a social group. It is like believers in a church. The church reaffirms the belief by not having any other beliefs.

If I missed the mark of what you're saying, LDD, apologies. Merely trying to sort things here, for self and others. Often gets confusing. Clarity benefits all.

I have seen other sites where folks get banned for having adverse opinions than of the site. Drew's site, lets everyone have their own opinion, adverse to the site or not. We may even express that opinion.

Others may have differing opinions. Apparently such difference of opinion causes some to be afraid. This leaves me afraid of homogeneity taking over Drew's site. This would mean only one opinion would be tolerated.

I do not think Drew desires homogeneity but rather diversity. In fact it seems the homogeneous spirit prevalent on the site is of tolerance of diversity. This seems to frighten some. Still trying to figure out why.

Perhaps, it frightens them because they are forced to admit mortality? Everything in life changes, even ideas and opinions. As such one seeing these changes needs to admit to living. Living's opposite is death, where nothing changes. So, they fear changes because it admits to dying, which is part of the natural cycle of living. Think I got it now. They're afraid of living.

[Gearbox]

Yes, I would suggest you refrain from becoming involved in any emotional relationships, involving either love or trust. Your responses indicate you are ill-equipped to deal with them.

Stick to casual sex or masturbation and you will be fine, no complications for you to understand.
Such bitchiness from someone so clever and emotionally stable.:rolleyes:
Tell you what, next time I meet a cheater I'll fek him balls deep up the chuff DRY for you. That'll teach him! And cheer you up!;)


*laffs*.. and I blush ever so easily hun...

I am honestly trying not to judge anyone.. which is harder than we think.. we are all judgemental you are right in that, and I have said it myself in the past, but in this I am trying so very hard because of my own life... having seen and caused such hurt and devastation.. but I do try not to judge, and certainly do not condemn for circumstances can and do arise over which we have little or no control..it does not excuse us our selfishness and greed, or our weakness and the harm we do, but no one is entirely immune Gearbox, no one, however much they think they are perfect creatures.. we can all fall.. and when I look around the world I inhabit, the people I know and have known, friends I have and at myself, it appears to me, if they do not quite fall, at least more stumble than don't...
I don't expect you to believe me, and it might come as a bit of a shock...but I've been less than Saintly in the past!:eek: HONEST NOW! It's TRUE!:rolleyes:
I doubt there's a genuine sinless Angel here. But you'd think there were, the way some others are sneered at.:rolleyes:
Some expect compassion, but are unwilling to give it, or choosy who it's given too. That's fair enough, but it's hypocritical and gives cheaters no intensive to show some either. NOT that it should need an incentive, but it can't do any harm.
I'm fully open to accusations of being naive btw!lol But it keeps me sugar sweet.:rolleyes:

[Gearbox]

I have seen many relationships and marriages fail cos of people wanting to live the * I * lifestyle in a *us * situation.... and its not cos of the sexual things,... its mainly cos they enter into the relationships and marriages, with the * its me and them, not US and ourselves * type thinking.....

monogamy.... its a take it or leave it situation for many people, but honestly to me, what I see is a lot of people that want a partner, a relationship, a marriage and all of the freedom and rights of a single person, none of the issues of compromising or restrictions that can come with marriage..... and thats why monogamy doesn't work for most people.......
Call me picky, but how can wanting freedom and rights as an individual be seen as something negative?:eek:

If monogamy had just been invented by Joe Smith, and we were given the details on a TV advert, brochure or something, I'm sure we'd think Mr Smith was barking mad!:bigrin:
What on Earth is he talking about? Give up my freedom and rights and my lover give up theirs? WHY?:eek:
Call us 'cheaters' if we have sex with another without the others permission? FRIKINELL!:eek: OMG we'd have to dump each other!

I'm jesting. But it makes you wonder how it took off all those years ago, before porn and was invented to keep em occupied.:tongue:

[Long Duck Dong]

Believe what LDD was struggling to say was, "tell a lie long enough, it becomes truth."

In this case a lie that cheating is correct, amplified by likewise propaganda of a social group. It is like believers in a church. The church reaffirms the belief by not having any other beliefs.

If I missed the mark of what you're saying, LDD, apologies. Merely trying to sort things here, for self and others. Often gets confusing. Clarity benefits all.

I have seen other sites where folks get banned for having adverse opinions than of the site. Drew's site, lets everyone have their own opinion, adverse to the site or not. We may even express that opinion.

Others may have differing opinions. Apparently such difference of opinion causes some to be afraid. This leaves me afraid of homogeneity taking over Drew's site. This would mean only one opinion would be tolerated.

I do not think Drew desires homogeneity but rather diversity. In fact it seems the homogeneous spirit prevalent on the site is of tolerance of diversity. This seems to frighten some. Still trying to figure out why.

Perhaps, it frightens them because they are forced to admit mortality? Everything in life changes, even ideas and opinions. As such one seeing these changes needs to admit to living. Living's opposite is death, where nothing changes. So, they fear changes because it admits to dying, which is part of the natural cycle of living. Think I got it now. They're afraid of living.

yeah you are correct.... its a form of *positive * enforcement thinking... enuf people support a persons beliefs, they will grow to think that their way is the right way and the way others must be, and anybody that dares * stray from the flock * is wrong........ religion is a prime example of it....

[Long Duck Dong]

Call me picky, but how can wanting freedom and rights as an individual be seen as something negative?:eek:

If monogamy had just been invented by Joe Smith, and we were given the details on a TV advert, brochure or something, I'm sure we'd think Mr Smith was barking mad!:bigrin:
What on Earth is he talking about? Give up my freedom and rights and my lover give up theirs? WHY?:eek:
Call us 'cheaters' if we have sex with another without the others permission? FRIKINELL!:eek: OMG we'd have to dump each other!

I'm jesting. But it makes you wonder how it took off all those years ago, before porn and was invented to keep em occupied.:tongue:

there is nothing wrong with wanting freedom and rights as a individual.... single people have that already...... and its not a negative thing in a relationship either, polygamous / open relationships are a fine example of individual rights working beside group rights.......

where it goes wrong, is where a person wants individual rights for themselves, but does it in a way that removes the individual rights of others...... and there is a difference in how its done

person A, sees their right to be with others as a individual right, their partner has no right to say anything about it and person A sees no reason to take with their partner about it at all, cos its about person A and their sex life, not them and their partner.....

person B sees their right to be with others as a individual right, their partner is monogamous minded, person B decides to act cos their individual rights supersede the rights of others to restrict their actions, and so person B acts with out consent or permission....

person C sees their right to be with others as a individual right, their partner is open minded but never revealed it, person C decides to act cos their individual rights supersede the rights of others, but the partner is interested in a open relationship too and has not been given or taken the chance to talk so both partners have no idea that they both want the same thing......

person D sees their right to be with others as a individual right, their partner is open minded, talks about it, they both want to be with other people, also with their partner, and sharing each other with others etc........

all 4 people will be seen as right and wrong, depending on who you talk to and who believes what....... but in most cases, its not going to make a lot of difference to the people cos they are exercising their individual rights, either as a couple or as a single person.......

thats how monogamy started to take form, somebody had a issue with something, they found others shared their opinion and it grew from there...... some people wanted their partners for themselves, others wanted power and control over their partners, some just needed their partners to be with them more, some wanted to share a life with their partners.... and others just have no interest in doing the group hokey tokey......

then you create a reason, IE religion, monogamous marriage, it takes a man and woman to reproduce etc, to add strength to your viewpoint..... and it grows..... and it worked in the same way that polygamous marriage ( some religious groups / cultures ) developed..... and voila, you have monogamous marriage and monogamy.....

thats why we are seeing more and more the reverse trend, fewer people getting married as they enjoy the freedom of being single or they perfer the idea of long term partners without the legal chains of marriage etc etc... or yes a return to open marriages / polyarmous relationships........

again, there is nothing wrong with it... and I say that cos many people are very happy with their lives and lifestyles.... but there is no perfect world.... so yeah there will be a imbalance there..... its how we deal with it that makes the difference......

I know a guy who was out cheating ( discreet ??? he thought it was discreet ) exercising his rights..... and recently his partner got pregnant and you would have thought that judgement day had come or something, cos he had a total meltdown over the fact she was pregnant and how she had do it to trap him into a relationship...... she told him in simple terms, no, she had exercised her right to get pregnant... freedom of choice and all that... his come back was that she never gave him the choice of being a father or not, she took away his right of choice...... her answer ( and I love this ) was no, I never took away your right of choice, cos you ain't the father, I exercised my rights with my new BF of 5 years, and we are getting married in 3 weeks, goodbye.......

hes still bitching about the * slut * that shit all over him after all he did for her..........

yeah exercising inidividual rights is fine...... trouble is other people have rights too and thats what some people can not handle lol

[Gearbox]

@LDD- It amazes me when a cheater is jealous and possessive of the cheated partner. There are quite a few of those about. My sister had a husband like that. He was highly suspicious of her, and ANY possible sign that a man had entered their house when he wasn't there would send him into a panic. Yet she finally found out he was cheating, and threatened suicide if she left him (she left,he's still alive btw).

Maybe they think that THEY can have NSA sex without threat to the emotional side of the relationship, but the partner would have feelings for any she'd/he'd have sex with?
Or maybe they don't think, and just run on emotions?
However, trying to rationalise an irrational emotion is silly I KNOW, but it's worth a shot.lol
No emotion is rational though. Best we can do is not to let them rule us, and for some that is very difficult indeed.

I've had jealous partners that no end of talking to and trying to reason with them helped in any way. They couldn't overcome that emotion even though it's was very destructive to themselves and me.
I doubt anybody wants to be a ruled by their emotions, but a great many are. We don't ask for depression, jealousy, anxiety, lust, greed,anger, and we don't reason that we should love either, but we just do.

That's mainly why rules don't work for many IMO. They can even have a negative effect. It's no surprise that diets hardly ever work, or people that are together for years quite happily then get married only to separate soon after. Some just can't cope with confining their emotions/desires/fears.

Lets face it! We are not robots, and not all masters of our own emotions.
I'm fascinated with lust (Yes HONEST!lol). It can turn Dr Jekyll into Mr Hyde.:rolleyes: Literally two distinct sets of 'morality' can be found in it's presence and absence. Motives and priorities change with it, and any harm it might cause is severely reduced in the perception of the lustful at that time of craving satisfaction. Hence cheating, STDs, unwanted pregnancy, risk taking, impulsiveness, advertising etc etc
I'm not saying "Oh pity the cheater as he/she can't help it!"! I'm saying "It's not always because they have wicked intent!".:)
They don't set out to destroy or hate the ones they are with, in most cases.

Yes it's very reasonable for two adults to be in an exclusive relationship and be completely honest with each other. But shame and guilt can cock that up too. Most tend to hide those things and chose deceit, even to ourselves. Some bisexuals have an added element to feel guilty and shameful about if they cheat with the same gender.
NOT saying "It's ok if your bi!".lol I'm saying "More cause to deceive!".
What might do some good for both the 'cheater' and the 'cheated on', is to understand what drives them, and hopefully it would help them overcome that drive. I see no good in damning them for anybody but the damning.
Saying that though, I KNOW how fruitless that was with ex's.:bigrin:
But maybe somebody here could do better than me. Optimism much better than pessimism IMO.:tongue:

[Long Duck Dong]

nods yeah I agree with a lot of that.....

being with my cheating ex, helped me to understand that many cheaters are not out to hurt their partners ( unless its revenge sex ) but to stop themselves * hurting * by fulfilling a need, be it for sexual release, the need to be wanted and held, .... lol even to feel that somebody wants them.......

I remember a member posting about cheating for emotional support reasons, more than anything else and how the end result was a change for the better for them.... and questions being asked about why that member was not being condemned for cheating, while another person that said they were a sex addict and cheated on their partner, knowing that their partner had expressed a desire for a monogamous relationship, and a number of people reacted adversely to them.....

something a few counsellors have told me, is that a bisexual female is more likely to cheat with somebody of the opposite gender rather than the same gender, and bisexual males are more likely to cheat with somebody of the same gender, rather than the opposite gender but with heterosexual males, its about equal with both genders, but with females its still more likely to be the opposite gender......

I have seen many studies that all have conflicting results.....but most depth studies show a trend of males are more likely to cheat for sexual reasons than female......and thats regardless of sexuality...... its part of why I having a differing opinion of people based around why they cheat..... and I am more understanding of people that cheat for emotionally / mental / sexual reasons, that want to change things so they are not cheating... than people that are doing it and saying its my right / its not my fault / I have no choice........

in a perfect world, there would be no cheating, no infidelity, marriages would be both monogamous / poly ( regardless of sexuality ) and we would all be happy, shiny people .... or would we.... cos sometimes what we want, is the ones that are not ours to have, or the ones we should not be having......

its why I will not *conform * and be supportive of bi males that cheat... cos you can not cheat without somebody else to cheat with..... and I have the strangest feeling that is part of the reason behind the push to be more supportive of cheating bi males... most people that are supportive of cheaters, do not limit it to a gender unless they have a personal interest or reason to gain from that gender being supported with their cheating, by the bisexual community....... and we both know that no matter what argument, rhyme or reasoning is used, most people are not going to accept cheating as a acceptable behievour..... and I dare say a good part of that is supporting others infidelity, reflects badly on others opinions of ourselves and our own ability to be honest and truthful with our own partners.......

[Gearbox]

@LDD- I doubt anybody checks the relationship status of their nsa hookups even if they claim to refuse cheaters. Not going to tell you the truth are they?:bigrin:
I've been told that their married and what their real names are after the deed a few times.
Not that it changed anything. As with many, I'm not interested in anything other than what goes on between them and me: NSA sex.

If cheating is really about the deceit and nothing to do with the sex, then it doesn't matter if everybody in the world refuses to bed a cheater. The deceitful intent is still there. They approach others for sex, not often the other way around. They are not forced to join hookup sites. And having done so, they are equal to all those on that site with no judgements other than sexual ones.
NSA actually does mean just that.

I personally don't support monogamy. That kind of thing doesn't go on in MY bedroom.:rolleyes:

[cuttin2dachase]

Cheating is seeking love AND sex, not JUST sex, from someone who is not your spouse or significant other to whom you've totally and emotionally committed your heart and all your love. If you have fallen out of love with her/him (or her/him with you) and want love (AND sex) from others, then you are cheating...do the right thing...be honest with yourself AND with her/him....tell them, divorce/break up with them, move on and don't look back. If you truly love your spouse or significant other with all your heart, would never leave her/him to love another, but just cannot be totally sexually satisfied only by her/him...therein lies THE dilemma. Is it cheating to desire and seek and find recreational sex with others just for the fun of it...for the pure animal aspect of it?...for the fulfillment of fantasies/fetishes?..the kind of fun/fantasy/fetish sex your loving spouse/siggy o can't or won't get into with you? I think not, but I am in the minority. The irony is that, despite my fantasies and desires for sex with others, I never "cheated" on either of my wives by acting on my desires, but they both cheated on me...and there was I...being the faithful one...being totally emotionally satisfied, if not totally sexually satisfied...thinking that I totally sexually and emotionally satisfied them! I need to have my ass kicked for not "cheating" on either of them 1st!

[tenni]

"polygamous / open relationships are a fine example of individual rights working beside group rights......."

Well, this is not true in my country. Just last week poly marriages were confirmed to be illegal and not a religious right so that what is being written here is a personal morality. What is to say that cheating is not also just a personal morality? Well, I guess that at one time divorce was granted on the grounds of adultry. Now, that was if the partner was the opposite gender it was adultry here. If it was the same gender that you cheated with? Well, its a "sin" to have sex with the same gender. It was also once illegal regardless if one of them were cheating.

So, who is the one to say that cheating is wrong but poly is acceptable? Each person decides their own personal morality and society deems it moral if it aligns again with hetrosexual mongamous values.

[Long Duck Dong]

@LDD- I doubt anybody checks the relationship status of their nsa hookups even if they claim to refuse cheaters. Not going to tell you the truth are they?:bigrin:
I've been told that their married and what their real names are after the deed a few times.
Not that it changed anything. As with many, I'm not interested in anything other than what goes on between them and me: NSA sex.

If cheating is really about the deceit and nothing to do with the sex, then it doesn't matter if everybody in the world refuses to bed a cheater. The deceitful intent is still there. They approach others for sex, not often the other way around. They are not forced to join hookup sites. And having done so, they are equal to all those on that site with no judgements other than sexual ones.
NSA actually does mean just that.

I personally don't support monogamy. That kind of thing doesn't go on in MY bedroom.:rolleyes:

it depends, some people know the people well either, others are just strangers in the night.......

I agree with you, NSA is what many appear to want, based around statements in the forum.... but a glance at the profiles shows that there are a good number that are wanting discreet sex ( not a indication of cheating ) those that are married and discreet (still not a indication of cheating ) and those that state they are married and discreet cos the wife doesn't know ( yeah that can be cheating )......

yeah cheating is more about the deceit than the sex.... cos you can act in a deceitful manner without having sex..... and its possible for the partner to know that you have extra martial sex and be ok with that, just not with the way you go about it.....

I was like that with my ex, i knew she was cheating.... but it was the fact that she was lying thru her teeth about what she was doing...... I was of the opinion that nothing I said, would make a difference to her, she would fuck others regardless of how anybody felt, so there was no point in getting into a argument over it.... but it pissed me off no end, that she lied and lied about where she was going etc...... tho in a sense, it could have been part of the * thrill * for her, thinking that she was smarter than me, cos she used to get so shitty if I did not react to her lies and call her out on them......

monogamy in a way for me, is not about committing to one person and one person only... its about having a person around me that can trust me, love me and believe in me.... cos when the viagra fails and the sex ends, its nice to believe that the love will continue until I die..... unless I give DD another dutch oven, then I may die faster than I thought.....

[DuckiesDarling]

"polygamous / open relationships are a fine example of individual rights working beside group rights......."

Well, this is not true in my country. Just last week poly marriages were confirmed to be illegal and not a religious right so that what is being written here is a personal morality. What is to say that cheating is not also just a personal morality? Well, I guess that at one time divorce was granted on the grounds of adultry. Now, that was if the partner was the opposite gender it was adultry here. If it was the same gender that you cheated with? Well, its a "sin" to have sex with the same gender. It was also once illegal regardless if one of them were cheating.

So, who is the one to say that cheating is wrong but poly is acceptable? Each person decides their own personal morality and society deems it moral if it aligns again with hetrosexual mongamous values.

One major point, if you are in a poly relationship you are not cheating UNLESS you go outside the bounds of the agreement. That's why there is a difference, Tenni.

[Long Duck Dong]

"polygamous / open relationships are a fine example of individual rights working beside group rights......."

Well, this is not true in my country. Just last week poly marriages were confirmed to be illegal and not a religious right so that what is being written here is a personal morality. What is to say that cheating is not also just a personal morality? Well, I guess that at one time divorce was granted on the grounds of adultry. Now, that was if the partner was the opposite gender it was adultry here. If it was the same gender that you cheated with? Well, its a "sin" to have sex with the same gender. It was also once illegal regardless if one of them were cheating.

So, who is the one to say that cheating is wrong but poly is acceptable? Each person decides their own personal morality and society deems it moral if it aligns again with hetrosexual mongamous values.

poly / open relationships..... not marriage...... relationships and marriage are two different things, hence I seperate them...... and as far as I know, canada has not made poly relationships illegal as for the most part, they are not a legal bounding union, unlike marriage.........

poly relationships are generally based around a consensual understanding between 2 or more people...... wanna explain how cheating can be consensual, cos I am very interested how a partner can give permission for their partner to go cheat behind their backs and not tell them that they are cheating........

who decides that cheating is wrong but poly is right.... the people that are involved in the situation... its why it can be right and wrong depending who is viewing the situation...... we can only talk from our own points of view, its when we try and make others in society, a community, even a forum, act in a manner that we deem acceptable that we start to want people to *conform * to a social norm, in much the same way that you are saying people that are monogamous natured, are conforming to one social norm, then telling people how monosexuals and bisexuals should be *conforming * to another * norm *

DD and I have talked in depth about being monogamous natured, the possibility of a open / shared relationship, a poly relationship etc etc......so yeah we have a lot of people that will support us or disagree with us, but its our lives, our choices...... others are welcome to share their opinion but they are under no obligation to share our opinions, ideals or even our beds........ and nor do we accept them to *conform * to our lifestyle that can blur many lines and boundaries of society...... but nor does it automatically mean that we will be supportive of other people in the same situation as every situation is uniquely different...... just like opinions in a forum.......

as you say, each person decides their personal morality.... so who is really conforming to heterosexual monogamy morality... and who is actually just not doing what you want them to do, based around your own personal morality.....

[bityme]

Cheating is seeking love AND sex, not JUST sex, from someone who is not your spouse or significant other to whom you've totally and emotionally committed your heart and all your love. If you have fallen out of love with her/him (or her/him with you) and want love (AND sex) from others, then you are cheating...do the right thing...be honest with yourself AND with her/him....tell them, divorce/break up with them, move on and don't look back. If you truly love your spouse or significant other with all your heart, would never leave her/him to love another, but just cannot be totally sexually satisfied only by her/him...therein lies THE dilemma. Is it cheating to desire and seek and find recreational sex with others just for the fun of it...for the pure animal aspect of it?...for the fulfillment of fantasies/fetishes?..the kind of fun/fantasy/fetish sex your loving spouse/siggy o can't or won't get into with you? I think not, but I am in the minority. The irony is that, despite my fantasies and desires for sex with others, I never "cheated" on either of my wives by acting on my desires, but they both cheated on me...and there was I...being the faithful one...being totally emotionally satisfied, if not totally sexually satisfied...thinking that I totally sexually and emotionally satisfied them! I need to have my ass kicked for not "cheating" on either of them 1st!

I agree that you are probably in the minority by taking the position that seeking love and sex from a third party is cheating while just seeking sex is not cheating. From what I have seen in the posts and real-life observations, the majority of people would classify either case as cheating.

You need not respond to the following questions. I don't want to seem like I am putting you on the spot. They are rhetorical, just for the purpose of discussion.

1. Would I be correct to assume that your "cheating" wives sought both love and sex from others?

2. If they had sought just sex, would that have been OK?

3. Would your marriages have broken up in either case, or just the former?

I could see those questions being answered either way. I would view the errant partner seeking both sex and love as the most devastating because my experience tells me people are less apt to believe they are not supplying emotional needs of a partner. The lack of physical ability is easier for us to understand. Put another way, we understand the attraction to someone taller, bigger, having a different hair or eye color, a bigger or smaller body part, a tighter orifice, or a different gender. It's easier to accept because we are not and never could be what is sought. But the thought of ourselves not giving our partner enough love is often viewed as incomprehensible. "How could that be? They know I love them?" would seem to me to be the normal reaction.

Reactions to President Clinton's getting a blow job were far less volatile than they would have been if he had had intercourse. Picture the fireworks if it had been an affair with love letters, etc. And we would have to picture Hillary's different responses under different circumstances would it be what the public expected of her and if not, why.

I would differ from your position in that I would perceive both the love and sex seeker and the sex only seeker as "cheaters." At least I would take that view if there had been no attempt to discuss it with the other partner and come to a resolution of the underlying problem.

However, as one who is an non-believer in and non-adherent to the concept of monogamy, I would still view the love & sex seeker situation as the harder one to deal with for both parties. I couldn't condemn either of them though. Both experience hurt because of the failure of the "love" in their relationship and that is very serious.

In the sex only seeker situation, I find it very easy to understand different physical desires. One likes to do something, the other does not. To me it's no big deal. Bill wanted the blow job he wasn't getting from Hillary, so what? If they still truly had "love" in their relationship, that "love" would ultimately result in them coming to understand each other's needs and work out a solution.

I am a big believer in respecting the sexual preferences of others. It is not only a matter of just respect, there can be a safety aspect too. If I am playing with others at a party, even though I am bisexual, I'm not going to touch another man without first determining if he's OK with it. Trying to give a straight guy some oral attention could very well turn out to be the last act before meeting your maker. LOL

I am making an assumption that your wives did not inform you there was some problem and didn't attempt to give you both an opportunity to resolve it. To me that is a greater violation of your joint commitment than any physical acts that followed. I can understand the hurt and anger you have from those experiences. I hope that one day you will find someone who is open and honest enough to keep the communication going. I can tell you that it's possible and when you find them, you will experience a deeper feeling about them than you have ever had before.

Best Wishes,

Pappy

[tenni]

"as you say, each person decides their personal morality.... so who is really conforming to heterosexual monogamy morality... and who is actually just not doing what you want them to do, based around your own personal morality....."

Well, I'm just working on thoughts and so yep may have a flaw or two..:tong:

However, the situation was polygamy marriages in Canada and the court decision is real. It was not some loose form of a illegal relationship but an examination if Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms permits polygamous marriages based on the charter right of freedom of religion. I didn't read or hear the complete verdict.

One aspect dealt with this "Bountiful" religious sect's marriages between older men and young girls(but not just young girls). It was deemed unacceptable and not a right of freedom of religion.(again don't have the specific rationale) - A similar question was also dealt with in the US. I'm not sure how the Canadian court test was different but I don't think that the leader was charged with anything. Polygamy remains illegal in Canada. I may be wrong but this may have been the first court case in Canada that deals with legal polygamy. There are several sects that practice polygamy marriages but although illegal have never been challenged.

I theorize that it is the value system based upon heterosexual monogamous relationships that play a strong role in what is determined to be "moral" in western societies.

just a half baked idea...give me ten years...:tong:

[NightHawk]

People are so different and complex that it is obvious that there should be many answers as to how monogamous a marriage is. My wife and I have always very much loved one another and yet we have also had some sexual desires we have satisfied outside our marriage. She has had affairs with a few men. I have had sex with a couple of other women and a couple of other men. She understands that I am bisexual and she wants me to be happy, just as I want her to be happy. We have managed this very well for more than 35 years.

Of course this is not for everyone. You have to understand your values, your needs, and your commitment to one another. I love my wife and I have a need as well for intimate male friendship, and not incidentally for cock. As long as each of our sexual partners are good people and we are enjoying ourselves, there is no harm to our wonderful marriage. We have the advantage that we are not jealous or envious people. We do not mind some sharing as long as we still have time for one another. There is still no thrill like that of my wife touching me, her sexy voice, the feel of her breasts, kissing her neck, kissing her anywhere, her nibbling on my chest or ass, my cock between her ass cheeks, or my cock slipping into her hot pussy. She holds her own very well against all cummers, yet I still do love that cock also.

[Gearbox]

@LDD- There are many who state that their married on hookup sites. Lots of singles and married have a preference for married bi's too.
One reason is to guaranty NSA, as they already have a partner and wish to keep them.(yes I KNOW! Great way to go about that!lol).
It's JUST sex! Two (or more) people who want sex with each other and nothing else! Their love-life is ok as it is, but the sex bit needs a bump.

Once at Mr X's place, all social boundaries are dumped, such as m-m sex, sexual exclusivity, masc&fem (for some), inhibitions etc etc. They get to explore with no guilt nor shame (at the time).
It's really not just about the sex IMO! For a married & closeted bi male in a 'heterosexual' lifestyle, it's a relief to be in the company of like-minded others too. I'd guess the same is true for female bi's.:)

NOPE! I'm not going to say,"ALL married bi's should try that because it's a great dose of free therapy!".:bigrin:
I do think it is, but IMO it would be so much healthier to let the partner in on it too in many ways. But from some that's understandably hard to do. I wouldn't like to be in that position myself.

[Long Duck Dong]

@LDD- There are many who state that their married on hookup sites. Lots of singles and married have a preference for married bi's too.
One reason is to guaranty NSA, as they already have a partner and wish to keep them.(yes I KNOW! Great way to go about that!lol).
It's JUST sex! Two (or more) people who want sex with each other and nothing else! Their love-life is ok as it is, but the sex bit needs a bump.

Once at Mr X's place, all social boundaries are dumped, such as m-m sex, sexual exclusivity, masc&fem (for some), inhibitions etc etc. They get to explore with no guilt nor shame (at the time).
It's really not just about the sex IMO! For a married & closeted bi male in a 'heterosexual' lifestyle, it's a relief to be in the company of like-minded others too. I'd guess the same is true for female bi's.:)

NOPE! I'm not going to say,"ALL married bi's should try that because it's a great dose of free therapy!".:bigrin:
I do think it is, but IMO it would be so much healthier to let the partner in on it too in many ways. But from some that's understandably hard to do. I wouldn't like to be in that position myself.

lol, yeah I can understand peoples desires for NSA sex.... if I was actively into the casual sex scene, I would look for NSA sex... cos the last thing I would want, is to have to listen to or deal with everybody elses issues and shit....lol

you are there for a good time, not a long time ... well long enuf to enjoy good sex that lasts more than 5 minutes any way.....

yeah i can understand the preference for married bisexuals and not single bisexuals... cos in some ways its more of a * safequard * against single people that like you so much that they wanna add strings lol.....

things like that, I have no issues with, quite the reverse, I understand how good it can be, hell even therapeutic for some people...... its a bit like a full force hardcore sparring match to a boxer....

one question that would come into a lot of peoples minds, is how do they know that their partner will not leave them for other people if the sex is that good... and the answer is in what you said... its NSA sex... and that is why the chances of your partner leaving you to go with the other people, is very slim, .....

NSA sex is great for single people and married people that have permission and for the ones that don't.... but for the married people.. there is a partner at home whose wants, needs and desires need addressing too... and thats something that often gets overlooked and ignored when it comes to the rights of people and NSA sex....

[tenni]

"lol, yeah I can understand peoples desires for NSA sex.... if I was actively into the casual sex scene, I would look for NSA sex... cos the last thing I would want, is to have to listen to or deal with everybody elses issues and shit....lol"

Well, yes, some may take that approach while others may show interest in their "Friends With Benefit"'s life up to a point. That point may vary and it can be dangerous if one friend gets emotionally attached and begins to pressure for a monogamous relationship. NSA that are "One Night Stands" tend to follow your comment while "Fuck Buddies" or "Friends With Benefits" may not.

"you are there for a good time, not a long time"

One night stands fit what you describe. I've had " deals" with Fuck Buddies that lasted more than three years.

Nonmonogomous "relationships" are not just one approach.

"yeah i can understand the preference for married bisexuals and not single bisexuals... cos in some ways its more of a * safequard * against single people"

True to some extent. It is the married bisexual wanting same sex action that may be the person desperately wanting the NSA in many cases. They want to be sure that it remains a purely physical and non emotional situation. In some respects, in the past I've seen any play with married bi men as "my community service" ;):bigrin: Single bisexuals may enter into a deal with another single bisexual and even one of each sex.

From my perspective, the NSA angle is setting up the "rules" before engagement and in that sense have some similarities to monogamous relationship. They are based on different and perhaps opposite positions of monogamy. This involves such things as what type of sex play you want and what form or NSA deal that you want. A "One Night Stand" may be the image that some have in their mind rather than other forms of NSA situations. Using the word "partner" in a lot of non monogamous relationships is a misnomer but not all non monogamous relationships such as "Closed Loop Relationships".

"It's really not just about the sex IMO! For a married & closeted bi male in a 'heterosexual' lifestyle, it's a relief to be in the company of like-minded others too."

I strongly agree with this point. This is the important aspect about being a bisexual and in a cross gender marriage. The cheating aspect is there for a variety of reasons and some of those reasons are due to biphobia in the individual as well as the society and perhaps their partners.

[Long Duck Dong]

I happen to be very well aware of how relationships / marriages / NSA sex / fuck buddies / friends with benefits / shoulders with shags / banger babes and many other situations.... tenni...... and I have a habit of defining what I am talking about.... I do not need you to try and change what I am saying to fit your definition of your private life or your understanding of what you think I am talking about.... I may be asexual natured, but I am far from being a angel.... and just cos I do not indulge in somethings, doesn't mean that I do not have any understanding of things... as I have far more understanding of things than I let on......

NSA sex is something that even monogamous people enjoy... random hardcore, passionate, spur of the moment, ball bashing, gut wrenching, headboard biting sex with their partners.... no reason or rhyme... just a need to blow out the cobwebs...

IE you spent 4 years having sex in the bedroom 3 times a week, at night.... then one day you fuck in every room of the house... or you get somebody to babysit the kids and go to a hotel, or some secluded area in the car... and you both fuck each others brains out......

the partners *forget * for a time, that they are partners with all the trappings of the daily grind, the concerns, worries and issues of relationship or married life.... and they forget all the * rules * as well..... and let rip.........

the same can apply to any person, any sexuality in any type of situation, closed / open / poly relationship / marriages, not just non monogamous situations IE fuck buddies / friends with benefits / shoulders with shags / banger babes and many other situations

there for a good time, not a long time is a correct statement and not confined to one night stands, as you read into it...... cos if I was referring to one night stands I would have said one fuck fun.......

there for a good time, not a long time is best shown by the following example
I go to the pub, I stay and have a few drinks, I talk with friends, I socialize.. then I leave before I drink too much or its closing time and I have to walk home cos I spent all my money on booze and have none for a taxi...... but it doesn't mean that I will only go to that pub once..........

if you are going to comment on what I say, make sure that you understand what I am talking about ...

[dafydd]

i know this is a cliche but, can't u just agree to disagree? isn't there room for more than one perspective?
all posts here hold equally valid opinions, and are open to debate but they shouldn't speak for your whole character. if one person disagrees with ur way of life, well, what do they know? it's a shame when what starts as a very open ended and interesting discussion thread gets so nit-picky. and i want to complain about people who complain.
d:2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

yeah dafydd, I can agree to disagree.... but you have not said anything I disagree with :tong::tong::tong:

[dafydd]

yeah dafydd, I can agree to disagree.... but you have not said anything I disagree with :tong::tong::tong:

that's because i try not to post first thing in the morning when i am at my most disagreeable :bigrin:

[tenni]

Some people are aware. Some people live the lifestyle.

[dafydd]

Some people are aware. Some people live the lifestyle.

t,
either way both those people are aware. better than being unaware. full stop.
:)

[tenni]

maybe maybe not...details seem to vary.

There was a recent sex study reported this week on this lifestyle in a Canadian newspaper. Unfortunately I couldn't find the newspaper report again. It focused on single people in their 20's but didn't identify whether hetero, bi or gay. What I reported was a mixture of what I read and what I live. I would suspect that it may also be found to be increasing in more mature divorced men but I've not heard of studying that population. I may be wrong.

[Long Duck Dong]

Some people are aware. Some people live the lifestyle.

are you referring to living the lifestyle of a cheater ????? cos I would fully agree......

as for the other aspects of sexual expression and sexual definition.... many people can live the same lifestyle by different names and understandings and they are all the same thing........ doesn't mean that they do not live the lifestyle and nor does it mean they are not aware of the subtle differences in people that live other lifestyles..

my asexual / bisexual / monogamous / multi sexual experiences nature is a prime example of how people do not live cookie cutter lives... and how other people have too rigid and strict a viewpoint over how people should live their lives and * conform * to that viewpoint......... and thats why you ended up posting in the forum, stating I was a asexual, so had no idea about what i talked about, and also telling me that I was not asexual cos I did not match the cookie cutter mold you tried to apply to me......

thats the trouble with trying to tell people they have no idea or that they do not understand, cos just maybe people like me, have a far greater understanding of how things work.. IE a asexual natured person that has a very good understanding of anal sex.....

you can assume how much people know, as much as you want.... it doesn't mean that they do not live the lifestyle in ways that exist outside of your understanding or lack of it.......

[Pasadenacpl2]

i know this is a cliche but, can't u just agree to disagree? isn't there room for more than one perspective?
all posts here hold equally valid opinions, and are open to debate but they shouldn't speak for your whole character. if one person disagrees with ur way of life, well, what do they know? it's a shame when what starts as a very open ended and interesting discussion thread gets so nit-picky. and i want to complain about people who complain.
d:2cents:

This is a misconception. All opinions are not inherently equal in their validity. This is why we scrutinize what is posted, challenging and asking for research and sources.

In direct reference to this thread, if it were just a matter that had lone consequences for the person cheating, then all viewpoints would probably be equally valid. But, any opinion that advocates removing consent from an unsuspecting partner is far less valid due to it having an affect (even if unknown to the person being cheated on) on someone else.

We all have the right to consent. Anything that removes that right should be eschewed within a free society.

Pasa

[pepperjack]

`
From time to time, I will engage in some discussion with my gay and bi friends about the concept of fidelity (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fidelity). A few of them, that are married or otherwise in a monogamous relationship, will have sex with another without telling their spouse or mate. Bi-males/females, rationalize that that it's not cheating if you have sex with the same gender, therefore, there is no need to tell your significant other. I disagree.

I'm not the most virtuous person, as I have sex with people whom are in a relationship, but if you make a commitment involving faithfulness, you are honor bound by it. Splitting hairs with words is a cop-out.

Saying that, I've been accused of being a hypocrite, and perhaps I am but I still realize what I'm doing is considered by many to be morally wrong. Being party to liaison where the female (in my case) is married, is not right, by conventional standards, but still, I do it anyway. That would put me just as guilty (more or less) as the person who is the perpetrator.

What are your thoughts?

`

Can relate to this & feeling very conflicted rite now. Just met a guy on another site who is really hot ,desirable, married & wants to be w/me this week. He approached me rite on the heels of a very negative encounter w/ an unmarried younger guy on the same site. We had a long, sexy chat & have a tentative date; like I said, feeling conflicted, hypocritical also because I thought I had my personal moral code established. Finding it next to impossible to resist him; he seems so perfect. So, I'm rationalizing, trying to justify hooking up w/him. Feel kind of out of control, a slave to my animalistic desires.:banghead:

[dafydd]

This is a misconception. All opinions are not inherently equal in their validity. This is why we scrutinize what is posted, challenging and asking for research and sources.

In direct reference to this thread, if it were just a matter that had lone consequences for the person cheating, then all viewpoints would probably be equally valid. But, any opinion that advocates removing consent from an unsuspecting partner is far less valid due to it having an affect (even if unknown to the person being cheated on) on someone else.

We all have the right to consent. Anything that removes that right should be eschewed within a free society.

Pasa

let me clarify, 'validity' in terms of the right for someone to have and voice an opinion that you don't agree with. not validity in terms of an objective truth.
the problem with arguing over cheating/monogamy/polygamy etc is that there is no objective truth, there is no objective answer, so its pointless getting offended if someone doesn't support ur view.
Scrutiny, challenging, researching is needed yes to emapthise, change ur mind or reassert how u feel but also to have a better insight into how others might choose to life their life.

that is only of course if you are careful to speak only for yourself. I can understand why people get annoyed when others think they know 'what type of person' the other is because of their opinion on one subject. and the conversation gets all precious because people are naturally defensive. Then its not useful debate. I was trying to say just chill on all that bit.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That all depends on what we're talking about. Are we discussing the national debt? If so, then I cannot tell what sort of person you are by your stance on that topic. If, however, we're talking about cheating and your stance is that it is ok, then I can most certainly tell what sort of person you are.

Pasa