How young is too young...?

[mikey3000]

This thread was inspired by two comments on the Penn State thread.

I know that many people hadtheir first sexual experience with a much older person. Some have even openly commented about it (both positively and negatively) on here, and these things have got me to thinking.

If you had your first sexual experience as a "child" and it was with someone much older (either gay or straight experience), how did it make you feel? Did you feel violated or was it otherwise for you?

I had mine when I was 9 with a boy a little older. We both performed oral on eachother and he rimmed me. I really never thought anything of it at the time and we stayed friends even to this day. Now I look back on that experience with fond memories and a warm heart. It was just the innocence of youth. But others may feel different. How did it make you feel?

I understand how sensitive this topic may be, and no offense in meant, but I think it's important to discuss these things.

[pepperjack]

This thread was inspired by two comments on the Penn State thread.

I know that many people hadtheir first sexual experience with a much older person. Some have even openly commented about it (both positively and negatively) on here, and these things have got me to thinking.

If you had your first sexual experience as a "child" and it was with someone much older (either gay or straight experience), how did it make you feel? Did you feel violated or was it otherwise for you?

I had mine when I was 9 with a boy a little older. We both performed oral on eachother and he rimmed me. I really never thought anything of it at the time and we stayed friends even to this day. Now I look back on that experience with fond memories and a warm heart. It was just the innocence of youth. But others may feel different. How did it make you feel?

I understand how sensitive this topic may be, and no offense in meant, but I think it's important to discuss these things.

I'm wondering if my story, "openly commented upon on here" a couple of times, is one u're referring to. This is profoundly interesting to me since today was the anniversary of an experience which brought certain memories bursting forth from my subconscious; no offense taken; willing to share all u would like to know; u're rite; discussion is cathartic!

[mikey3000]

Sorry man, I missed your story. But feel free... There nare many on here.

[pepperjack]

Sorry man, I missed your story. But feel free... There nare many on here.

As I said, I've already shared this twice before on here; I was molested by a pedophile when as a 5 yr. old; not only did I feel violated & terrified, but also wound up in the hospital for emergency surgery because of a severe hernia in my groin as a result of this experience; so, I was completely traumatized! So much so I could not talk to my parents about it until my mid-20's. I've evolved into a man who has a very tenderhearted, compassionate love for children.:yinyang:

[bttmguy2]

I was molested at a very young age 6 or 7 and
have loved sex ever since. In my younger years
i preferred sex with girls but the older I get the
more I love sex with men and get this I prefer
to bottom. What the hell, maybe I need a therapist!!

bttmguy2

[love1234]

The man made rules in some states are as low as 13 for females and as old as 18 in other states.

Not that many years ago in some parts of this country a 14 year old girl was on her way to being old maid if not engaged.

[love1234]

If I remember right they have rules in the Talmud. I believe some married off little girls as fast as they could. A male could return the little girl if she was screamer.

They also knew the hymen would re-grow and the girl could be passed of as virgin if they stopped before she was three.

I'm thinking back in the day they were marrying off 5 & 6 year old girls? One less mouth to feed plus they got paid for her? She was expected to perform like cook, clean and sex.

[elian]

As I said, I've already shared this twice before on here; I was molested by a pedophile when as a 5 yr. old; not only did I feel violated & terrified, but also wound up in the hospital for emergency surgery because of a severe hernia in my groin as a result of this experience; so, I was completely traumatized! So much so I could not talk to my parents about it until my mid-20's. I've evolved into a man who has a very tenderhearted, compassionate love for children.:yinyang:

Aww <nuzzles> - I am glad that you are able to work successfully at overcoming this event in your past.

[elian]

My story has been posted here enough times already.

I think there is a difference in children of the SAME age being curious about their bodies vs. an adult knowingly doing things with a child where the adult holds a position of influence over the child and the child may not fully understand the repercussions.

I am really glad that the UU church I go to DOES teach sexual education, with parental consent and involvement. It gives children good, honest age appropriate information about themselves, their bodies and how to treat themselves and others with love and respect. When I first heard about this I thought, "How strange, to learn about sexual education AT CHURCH" but learning to act with compassion and respect, and learning ways of having a positive healthy relationship is a part of spiritual growth. We developed the curriculum using recommendations from respected agencies and in cooperation with the United Church of Christ so there is at least one other denomination that also teaches responsible sex ed. (http://www.uua.org/re/owl) I would much rather that children learn about sex from a reputable source than something like MTV or "the internet".

My experience was tainted primarily because I was 7-8 the teenage boy who touched me (11-12) decided to scare the hell out of me first by locking me up for an hour, showing me his dad's gun, somehow he even got me to stand in a stack of tires in the backyard and decided it would be great fun to spray me with a hose in the face when I couldn't move..then we found a stray cat and I was dismayed that he would try to do the same thing to the cat.

It must have been a bit of stockholm syndrome because even after all that, when he touched me I was only REALLY upset when I knew he had held me that way and I wouldn't ever see him again..I fantasized about "playing house" with this male..so now that I think about it for me to deny I was gay or bi or feminine or whatever would just be stupid at this point I guess but it took me a while to admit that.

I was angry for a long time at that, for making me question just WHAT I wanted..up until that point no "adult" had EVER treated me that way..with the abuse OR the affection. I literally didn't know how to respond..but I knew other adults around me didn't think much of two males sleeping together.

What I feel now mostly is just a little sad for him, because if he did all of those things to me, that must mean that he had to learn them from someone else..a kid that young isn't THAT sexually experienced or aggressive without first learning it from somewhere (or someone) else.. That's why I take such a hard stand on this issue, because abuse can tend to repeat - it is important to just let children be children without that sort of influence.

I honestly don't know what I would be like if those incidents wouldn't have happened, and that is in the past now. I know this is going to sound strange but always been drawn to genitals anyway - I have very early memories of playing with myself (at that early it was more like a cat toy, I didn't really feel anything, it was just the curiosity of things bobbing in the wind) and I used to stare at others quite a lot. I was always fascinated by the length of the trunk on that snuffleupagus. I remember more than just that one guy but many other people seemed to want me to do "strange" things with them..I struggled very hard to be accepted by others so I always adored that attention..

Having all of this stuff done to me as a male (who wasn't supposed to show emotion or let people take advantage) was demoralizing enough but I guess I should be glad that I WASN'T born female because personally I have a feeling I would have liked the attention a little too much.

So I guess sex has been a part of my life more than I really want to admit. Once I got to be around some decent role models and have proper relationships things did improve quite a bit.

[darkeyes]

Too young is when the law of the land says so... the law is arbitrary and creates problems and is often unfair, but until a better way is found to determine sexual maturity it has to be. As a young teen I flaunted and ignored it in part because I wanted to but primarily because I felt mature enough both physically and mentally able to do so... but I will never encourage any child or young teen to do as I did.

Interestingly, the other day my dad pulled out the old family albums... there I was, smiling, happy and cute and looking skinny and about 13 years old. It was my 15th birthday party. Maybe I wasnt quite as physically mature as I believed myself to be.. which brings me to..

...too young is also when we are physically and/or insufficiently mature, well prepared and educated to deal with it and properly choose for ourselves without undue pressure from or an immature, childish desire to please another with whom to have sexual relations.

The age at which we develop physical, sexual and mental maturity differs from person to person and even above the ages of consent in every country there are those who are not and never shall be sufficiently either educated or prepared to deal with it, and some will never have the mental maturity and a very few will even lack the physical maturity to do so adequately.... because of the variation in ages at which we mature, each society has selected, often almost at random, an age at which it is generally felt that the young are able to safely embark on a life of active sexual expression... because of the arbitrariness of law, it will of necessity be a very imperfect instrument, but it is designed to prevent as far as it is able, sexual exploitation, molestation and abuse of children and immature adolescents from the predatory nature and instincts of more adult human beings.

[Gearbox]

I was about 10yo when I started having sex with same age m/f's. But I craved after much older men in particular. I know I would have had no qualms about certain men in their 30'&40's replacing my same age friends for sexual pleasure. I would have greatly appreciated them.

BUT as an adult I think that is disgusting! A crime! I don't care how much I wanted it back then, I'd view those adults as sick and child abusers now.
It's kind of hypocrytical, but that's how it is. I can understand the attraction to fully developed adults, but not so for children, no matter what that child believes or how 'old enough' they look or think they are.

There has to be limits and laws to protect children, even from themselves.

[12voltman59]

More and more bits of the Special Grand Jury Investigation Report are being released and it is really something horrid that this man did to those young men---he was not one of these kind of guys who grooms and slowly leads a kid into doing sexual things---he got them into the showers---stripped off his clothes and those of the kids and violently RAPED them----with them pleading for mercy and to stop and all---he is not some soft and squishy older guy wanting to diddle some kids--he is apparently a pure sexual predator of the worst kind!!!

They are gonna have a fun time with him in some max security prison--I doubt he will live too long---he might not make it to trial!!! Somebody might get him while he is in the local lockup!!

[tenni]

I know that it is the age that the society determines as too young. However, I think that I like what my country use to have as far as age was concerned. It stated beyond the age of 14 (at the time) as being the age of consent an added aspect. The age between the two people involved in a consensual sexual act had to be something like no more than two years difference in age if one of them was under the age of 16 or something.

That would mean that a fourteen year old may have sex with someone no older than sixteen and no younger than twelve in order for it to be consensual legally. That makes sense to me. They have changed that law and increased the age of consent(damn conservatives..:() There is no longer a sliding scale to determine consensual sexual acts. I recall that anyone under this age may not consent but there was still the possibility for a twelve year old to consent to a fourteen year old...no gender restrictions as to whether the partners were same or opposite gender.

Sexual exploration between ten to twelve year old does happen though. I think that falls within what I would consider within a norm.

A sexually active person under ten has more than not had some sexual abuse/exposure from my observations. Some form of sexualizing and that might be just from exposure to porn. I know that I had a nephew who was sexualized by the age of 8. He was a difficult behavioural child (ADHD plus) . Somehow, unknown to his parents he saw porn on a satellite dish at the age of 8 or younger late at night while they slept. At the age of 4 he called a televised sex line because it referred to "friends". Rang up an interesting sex phone bill too..:eek::bigrin:(they hung up immediately when hearing a child but still charged) It happens unfortunately. His parents were not happy but had a lot to deal with him. He got his first bj at eleven from a 15 year old girl. At 18 now, he is less sexually active..poor bugger..now when it counts as worthwhile.:( Of course, I just realized that is me speculating as I have not asked him if he is getting any..lol Maybe he is ..doubt it for several reasons.

[ckman314]

I was molested at a very young age 6 or 7 and
have loved sex ever since. In my younger years
i preferred sex with girls but the older I get the
more I love sex with men and get this I prefer
to bottom. What the hell, maybe I need a therapist!!

bttmguy2

Also Molested at a young age I was 8 prob need a therapist too I always wonder if Im bi because I was molested

[want2havefun]

A sexually active person under ten has more than not had some sexual abuse/exposure from my observations. .

Not sure if thats true, perhaps sometimes, but definitely not in my case.
I engaged in sexual activity before the age of 10, with a girl my own age.
Neither of us were "sexually exposed" or "abused". If anything we were sheltered from sex, sexual themes, images and information by conservative loving parents. If anything a lack of sexual information sparked our interest. Our activity was initially of a curiosity nature, a "show me yours, I'll show you mine" type of thing. That led to touching, which we both thought felt good. At that age we didnt have full on intercourse (if thats all you are counting) but we definitely enjoyed fingering and rubbing each other for sexual pleasure.


As for the Penn case and other like it, anyone of an adult age having sex with a child is a molester/pedophile REGARDLESS of the child's willingness or not to engage in such activity. The adult is the responsible party and bears all the blame.

[love1234]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2060241/Girl-10-gives-birth-baby-Mexico.html 10-year-old girl gives birth...

[tenni]

Want
Yes there is body exploration under 10 years old and that is different than what I was referring to. Show me and I'll show you by a peer age person. Even some touch. That differs from exposure. Children who have "seen" sexual acts are in an entirely different grouping from what is body exploration and self discovery. A child may be exposed to sexual acts even verbally maybe by an older sibling etc. It is a grey line. It is when they become sexually precocious that something may need to be done. It all depends upon the circumstance. An eight year old may molest a four year old but probabilility is that eight year old was also molested. I have been aware of a nine year old boy dry humping both boys and girls during recess. That is out of the norm and the boy had some serious emotional and psychological issues in order to be so brazen with his sexual behaviour. There was a lot of abuse in his home. I worked helping the boy professionally at one point and it was very sad and complex.

[pepperjack]

Aww <nuzzles> - I am glad that you are able to work successfully at overcoming this event in your past.
Yes, I overcame & continue to do so; don't need condescending male "nuzzling";why do u suppose I chose the icon...:yinyang:? Because I feel whole & sufficient. I just feel a man can be deeply loving, passionate & compassionate, without being effeminate; was merely providing Mikey w/fodder for his curiousity & thread. :cool:

[æonpax]

I gave birth at 13. It was traumatic mainly because of the reaction of the adults around me, such as my parents and their Baptist church which hypocritically almost forced me to get an abortion. I became more emotionally defiant than actually distressed. My parents disowned me and I went to live with an aunt in Wisconsin.

Legality aside, I have no regrets and now have a beautiful 15 year old daughter, whom like her sisters, I love more than myself.

[darkeyes]

I gave birth at 13. It was traumatic mainly because of the reaction of the adults around me, such as my parents and their Baptist church which hypocritically almost forced me to get an abortion. I became more emotionally defiant than actually distressed. My parents disowned me and I went to live with an aunt in Wisconsin.

Legality aside, I have no regrets and now have a beautiful 15 year old daughter, whom like her sisters, I love more than myself.

Good on u babes... have a friend who had a baby at 13. Her parents also tried to force her to have an abortion.. they even consulted a lawyer to
see about having it legally enforced too.. but their parish priest soon put a stop to their little game and their hypocrisy..

Her little boy started uni back in September and is now a strapping rugby playing monster of a lad. She got away from home soon as she could and sacrificed almost everything for him.. worked at 3 and 4 jobs at a time all hours just to keep them in house and home.. thats love.. but not blind love.. he is shit scared of 'is mum and she knows his little faults.. my daughter fancies him something rotten but needless to say, pubescent girls arent his thing and he just doesnt see her except as an annoying brat... poor Shiv.. tee hee. He does however go gaga about another m8... if pubescent girls arent his things, older women certainly are.. even married older women the dirty bugger...:tong:

[æonpax]

I must preface what I say by stating that while I believe in and will defend, a females right to choose, an abortion is something I don't advocate. Also, AOC laws are arbitrary and capricious and up to the individual nations culture.

Make no mistake about it, getting pregnant and giving birth, was a hell I wish on no girl. My aunt, who was single, helped me out the best she could but I went from being 13 to being 21 in a matter of weeks. I took full responsibility of raising my daughter.

Age Of Consent is a very touchy subject. Here in the US, the Penn State tragedy involving forced sex with minor males, will only serve to reenforce myths that gays and bi-males are low-life, which is just not true.

[swmnkdinthervr]

The question of age vs maturity vs consent is something that will always be discussed with no clear answer...no matter what the laws are!

I was about 12 when an older boy seduced me, he was about 16 at the time (over the statutory limits at that time). I greatly enjoyed our numerous meets but as the year progressed and I became more enamored of girls I also became more aware of the homophobia surrounding me!!!

Due to the guilt pressed on me by this (still) homophobic society I avoided and suppressed any further thought of male to male fun. Once I again began to recognize that fact that male to male play is about sex first gender second I was able again open up to a whole new realm of pleasure and let go of the guilt of my past.

The problem with the question using age as the only factor is that many people are mature beyond their years both emotionally and physically. However it's obvious that someone more mature could take advantage of someone not so knowledgeable!!!

[darkeyes]

I must preface what I say by stating that while I believe in and will defend, a females right to choose, an abortion is something I don't advocate. Also, AOC laws are arbitrary and capricious and up to the individual nations culture.

Make no mistake about it, getting pregnant and giving birth, was a hell I wish on no girl. My aunt, who was single, helped me out the best she could but I went from being 13 to being 21 in a matter of weeks. I took full responsibility of raising my daughter.

Age Of Consent is a very touchy subject. Here in the US, the Penn State tragedy involving forced sex with minor males, will only serve to reenforce myths that gays and bi-males are low-life, which is just not true.

Gay and bi males are not low life you're quite right.. no more or less than heterosexual males are low life... each sexuality has its predators and we have to accept that, and combat it as best we can knowing that they will at least damage and just as often wreck the lifes of so many children.. society's way is the arbitrary age of consent.. imperfect and causes many problems in itself.. but as yet we know of no better way of trying to protect our children from the predatory nature of some adults. Better sex education and awareness of what paedophilia is, of the law and the need for an age of consent would help.. educating girls (and boys have their part to play and need education too) into just what it will mean to them should they fall pregnant at too young an age. Parents and schools have a joint responsibility in this, but too many schools and parents evade their responsibility, and in this country too many education authorities also, as at times, have governments.

Abortion is a very personal thing. It is difficult for me to know how I would feel should I ever become pregnant (my daughter is adopted and the natural child of my partner), but the numbers of conceptions of young girls, some as low as 9 and 10 are such that in many instances health and life of both mother and child can be put at risk. Not to say of course the mental wreckage which can come as a result of pregnancy in one so young. Pregnancy is difficult enough for adult healthy women, but how much more stressful in a child in her early teens or younger. It is not just young boys who are preyed upon and while the damage upon them is catastrophically traumatic, the damage to a young girl who falls pregnant as a result of abuse (or even peer play) leaves a mark on her young life in the form of a child or abortion which is additionally traumatic and is an ever present reminder of the original assault.

What is certain is that in having children at the age of 12 14 15 or even older, when a child or young person knows relatively little of the world and has no means to support her child, and very little idea of what it means to raise a child, that is too young when her naivity and ignorance of life, her lack of means and maturity will make both her own and the life of her child more difficult than it would be than if she was a mature adult with knowledge of the world, her own means of support and had properly planned and prepared for her child.

[elian]

Yes, I overcame & continue to do so; don't need condescending male "nuzzling";why do u suppose I chose the icon...:yinyang:? Because I feel whole & sufficient. I just feel a man can be deeply loving, passionate & compassionate, without being effeminate; was merely providing Mikey w/fodder for his curiousity & thread. :cool:

Hey pepperjack, whether you "need" it or not, I'm gave it to you because that's just who I am - I didn't necessarily think that you "needed" it but your story resonated with me. I've ALWAYS loved being affectionate - it kinda sucks doing it online only but.. No offense.

[elian]

I will let you know how I feel about abortion as soon as I can bear my own child. I would try to do everything in my power to avoid having to be in that situation in the first place - from using a condom up to supporting the child for adoption if the mother just could not keep it but I won't TELL a woman what to do. I know people who have gone through that procedure - it's not a decision they make lightly and the thought of it pretty much stays with them for the rest of their lives.

I'm certainly not advocating teenage pregnancy or sexual abuse but I can see from two of the stories above how sometimes reaction from others is even more detrimental to our health than the event itself.

I know my parents got married very quickly because even in the 70's to bear a child out of wedlock was still considered taboo.

Rape is rape, and it certainly sounds as if what Mr. Sandusky did to those boys at PennState really and truly is rape - if true the age of consent really doesn't matter - having sex with someone against their will - while they are crying and begging you to stop ?! - what the hell is wrong with that man?!! ..

All I can say is that the governor here asked the students at PennState to channel all of their energy toward standing in solidarity with the victims and I think it's a good thing.

[æonpax]

<snip><unsnip> What is certain is that in having children at the age of 12 14 15 or even older, when a child or young person knows relatively little of the world and has no means to support her child, and very little idea of what it means to raise a child, that is too young when her naivity and ignorance of life, her lack of means and maturity will make both her own and the life of her child more difficult than it would be than if she was a mature adult with knowledge of the world, her own means of support and had properly planned and prepared for her child.

In human history, up into only about 150 years ago, a female could get married and bear children as early as 10 or when their cycle started. The human specie, in all cultures, not only survived that way, we proliferated.

About the time of the Industrial Revolution and the Victorian age, the concept of a set-aside childhood was introduced within the Western world. Agree or disagree with it, children up until then, were after birth, instructed on survival and how to contribute to the clan, tribe, village, community or even, kingdom. Their capacity to develop their natural intellect and maturity, was by need, introduced right away.

This begs the question, has the potential for a child to mature at an accelerated rate degraded since the late 1800, or, has an ideology as law, been telling us that children are dumber now than used to be, for thousands of years?

[darkeyes]

In human history, up into only about 150 years ago, a female could get married and bear children as early as 10 or when their cycle started. The human specie, in all cultures, not only survived that way, we proliferated.

About the time of the Industrial Revolution and the Victorian age, the concept of a set-aside childhood was introduced within the Western world. Agree or disagree with it, children up until then, were after birth, instructed on survival and how to contribute to the clan, tribe, village, community or even, kingdom. Their capacity to develop their natural intellect and maturity, was by need, introduced right away.

This begs the question, has the potential for a child to mature at an accelerated rate degraded since the late 1800, or, has an ideology as law, been telling us that children are dumber now than used to be, for thousands of years?

No, children of today are probably brighter, and they are almost certainly physically more advanced than kids of a century and more ago.. prosperity and improvements in diet and removal of childen from the absolute poverty of those times has much to do with it.. whether they could survive the world of the industrial revolution and before however is another question.. those worlds are so different from our own that their adaptability and intelligence would be put to the test..

..children were chattels in those days, and still are in some parts of the world. Mortality was such that the sooner girl started to breed the more chance of carrying on the species in destititute areas so many children succumbed to disease and deprivation. Even the prosperous had a far greater early mortality rate among children and even adults than do the poorest families now. Girls especially were as nothing and used and traded as something less than human. Even as adults should they be lucky enough to reach adulthood they had little or no say in their world and what happened to them. Hubbie, if they had one had absolute power over her and even single women were considered less than nothing.

I do agree with u regarding the situation prior to the industrial revolution but even then women's place was secondary to the male with relatively few rights over her life. They did have to learn survival skills and their intellect did show what they could be. But then as now their principal purpose was to breed, and again mortality played its part. The ages of child mortality and adult mortality collapsed in the early years of the industrial revolution, in part because of the increased poverty and squalor to be found in increasingly overcrowded and unhygeinic towns and cities, as well as any lack of safety and care by mill and factory owners. In Preston in Lancashire, the life expectancy of a person born in the 1840s was about 7 and many of our towns and cities were little better. Women in those days learned different skills just to survive but disease and poverty overwhelmed them in a way which it had not done since the black death in the middle ages.

Children, boys as well as girls, were often used as sex fodder and there was little or no child protection in those days.. they often had to learn to survive as young as 5 or 6. The numbers of prostitutes in some of our towns and cities almost equalled the numbers of women who were more "saintly" and the concept of rent boy is not a late 20th century invention. Children as in parts of the world now were used to supplement the family income where the family unit existed, either by working in the fields or factories at an early age, or by prostitution or even by the gathering of some form of dowery.

Life was hard and it was cheap, and in a sense children had to grow up quickly or perish. Whether we consider that as maturing is open to question.
Now we allow our children a proper childhood, or we try to. They learn their life skills in part through play just like any other mammal, and by guidance from parents and others around them, but we encourage them to enjoy their childhood and their friends.. prior to the industrial revolution they had much of that too, but it was cut short at an early age by the necessity of survival.. in the early years of the industrial revolution, in our towns and cities from the vast majority of children play was removed from them as they learned simply survival in a far more heartless and brutal world.

[æonpax]

<snipped for brevity>{good reply}

I will not disagree with you that children (and women) were treated as slaves and, that during the Victorian/Industrial age, we also had an age of enlightenment...Civil rights for children and women.

For the sake of argument, what I'm saying is that children turn into adults, by way of need, by way of custom, by way of religion and...by law. Are people under 18 capable of making so-called, "adult decisions?" I say yes but with this caveat; Only if they are educated to do that.

I'm not saying this is the right way and I am deliberately discounting conventional morals...what I am saying is that those people we may call children, have the capability to be more independent of thought, than the law allows.

[darkeyes]

I will not disagree with you that children (and women) were treated as slaves and, that during the Victorian/Industrial age, we also had an age of enlightenment...Civil rights for children and women.

For the sake of argument, what I'm saying is that children turn into adults, by way of need, by way of custom, by way of religion and...by law. Are people under 18 capable of making so-called, "adult decisions?" I say yes but with this caveat; Only if they are educated to do that.

I'm not saying this is the right way and I am deliberately discounting conventional morals...what I am saying is that those people we may call children, have the capability to be more independent of thought, than the law allows.

I agree with u... I think I was and know many others who were, and at work know several kids under the age of consent who in my judgement are too.... I was sexually active before the law said I should be because I wanted to be, but also because my parents ensured that I had the education and awareness to be able to handle it.. people can argue that my promiscuity was a sign of immaturity but I have never considered promiscuity as a sign of immaturity in itself, just one way of expressing and enjoying sexuality.. not taking account of all the factors for each of us is where the law being arbitrary falls down.. but unfortunately until we can devise a method by which the maturity of the young can be more accurately measured we are kind of stuck with it.. even then, I think there will always be the old stick in the mud fuddy duddies who just disapprove of sex and young people enjoying themselves and they wont care whether they are adult enough to enjoy it or not...

[Realist]

This is a controversy that often stirs vehement, emotional, views! Even b efore all of the particulars are revealed, opinions are formed and inflamed. I normally avoid any participation in discussions of this kind, because of my seduction by an older man.

Although Penn State is mentioned here, my experience was nothing like what those boys supposedly suffered. From what I understand, threats, coercion, and maybe even the fear of personal harm, was used.

Some might say that what happened to me was at the hands of a pedophile. Maybe so, but if he was, he was one of the most gentle and considerate of them all!

Others I've shared this story with have sometimes become very upset and accusatory toward the person who I refer to as my seducer. But, for over a year, before we actually had sex, he mostly responded to my questions about things that never were answered at home.

I'd felt urges I didn't understand for years and craved the understanding of why I felt so attracted to boys as well as girls. For the first time, an older person would discuss those things with me, honestly and openly.

When I was able to explain how I felt and what I wanted, emotionally and sexually, he was there for me. I was able to understand that I was not the only young person in the world, who felt that way..........I was not alone.

When it became evident that I wanted him to introduce me my first sexual experience, he sat me down and discussed several points I never thought of.

First, he explained that it was against the law for him to have any sexual contact with me. Then, he told me that my parents would be very upset if they knew he and I had been intimate. He even told me that there would probably be many who would say that two males being intimate is perverse and evil...especially when there was so much of a gap in our ages.

He even told me that it is very compelling for some men, to have sex with young boys, or girls, and those men would sometimes do terrible things to get what they wanted. Even if the children willfully went with the older persons, that person might kill the child after they were finished with them! I never felt any fear that he would do anything harmful to me.

After I thought it over and told him I wanted him to teach me, he said that he would be pleased to. He never once warned me to be discreet, or even hinted at threats. I think he felt safe with me, not because I was afraid of him, but because he felt I wanted to be intimate with him and I would have enough sense to know that if I told anyone, he'd be in jeopardy. He never asked me to reciprocate, either.

So, when it came to that time, when he knew I wanted to experience the possibilities between the two of us, he asked me if I was ready and I told him emphatically, "Yes"

I've never felt guilty for that experience, nor did I have any remorse of any kind. I think that, if I had to learn from anyone, he was the best choice I had available.

By the time I got to that point, when I asked him to teach me, he had given me enough knowledge to make my own decisions.

Yes, at 14, I may have been too young, according to the law, but I was at a point where I was going to do SOMETHING, with someone.........so why not with someone I trusted and felt comfortable with? I asked him to show me the way...........I was ready! I'm glad I did, he was great! I received no surprises, other than the severity of the pleasure he gave me.

And, I never told another soul, until long after he had passed on.

[elian]

I cannot advocate breaking the law but I'm glad that your experience was a positive one Realist. Like I said in my case I think it wasn't necessarily the sex, but all of the things he did to me to make me emotionally and mentally unbalanced beforehand...the unanswered questions I had in my mind AFTER - and of course the terrible longing for that type of intimacy again which I never had an opportunity to feel until l I was 19 or so..

Believe me when I was a teen I fantasized quite a lot - I wanted to be with other boys my age and some adult men I looked up to in the worst way, I wanted them to accept me and love me so badly but I was so very immature and none of those are the right reason to want to have sex.

I think the NZ law that was mentioned with a sliding scale although not perfect is probably a decent approach because I think it is perfectly natural for children of the SAME age to be curious about their bodies.

Unfortunately not everyone has the opportunity to dictate what their introduction to sex is going to be like, children may THINK they know what it's all about but it's doubtful they actually know, since the cycle of abuse tends to repeat I simply cannot advocate sexual contact under the age of consent. .like I said let the children mature and develop their character first.

As far as olden times, remember it was often considered "good" if someone lived to the ripe old age of @ 42 right?

[ALMOE]

Under 18? too young.:2cents:

[roy m cox]

i was reaped at 7yrs. old and we will leave it at that ,

i wont date any one under the age of 20 :2cents:

[darkeyes]

Under 18? too young.:2cents:

Until 1929 in Scotland girls could marry at the age of 12 and boys at 14... it didnt happen often but a lot of rumpy did between the young of those ages themselves and of those ages and older people.

One such instance of illicit rumpy between a boy of 15 and a girl of 14 led to the conception of my fathers mother.. they married in 1924 and lived happily together until the death of my great gran in 1981. My fathers father was conceived after marriage in 1921... my great grandfather was 19 and great grandmother 16. Quite legally in todays UK and Scottish terms and they too lived loved and struggled together happily until my great grandad's death in 1972. 18 too young? For some... for others not so.. even for some who we would consider too young not so. Human beings are all different and grow and mature at different rates which is what æonpax, I and some others have been saying.

What is so magical about an age that we are not fit for something one day and upon our birthday we suddenly become ready? The law does not in its present form cater for differing maturity ages.. in each of our countries it is arbitrary because it has to be in the interests of the young who are less mature both physically and mentally. Arbitrary law is unfair in that it discriminates against a group of people. What for instance is so right that we cannot vote at 17 yet we can from the day we become 18? That we assume all the rights and responsibilities of being an adult at 18 and are denied them the day prior to reaching that age? Arbitrary law is a best guess..it is all it can be.. and being a best guess it screws with people it really shouldnt..

Regarding the age of consent, the law in Scotland, Duckie, and I believe south of the border acts much as it does in New Zealand.. it does this because while it is unfair, it struggles to be reasonable when it comes to sex between peer groups and not clamp down too hard on those young people who are around and below the age of consent..

[elian]

Why? Because like you said Fran there needs to be a baseline "lowest common denominator" for people who can't. don't or won't think. So everyone knows in this land there is ONE law and if you break it you break it.

I will tell you a sad tale though about one of my friends who graduated from high school around the same time as me - he married an emancipated minor who was 16-17, I think he was 18 - they both wanted to get away because she grew up in a very emotionally abusive, controlling home. For whatever reason private videos were made of their intimate moments that in hindsight probably should not have been made - actually they should NOT have even been married but they both thought they knew better than everyone else.

Later on after a custody dispute these videos were brought to light and the DA went after him and prosecuted him for having sex with a minor. Mind you, she was emancipated, they were married and the sex in the alleged incidents was consensual. The judge had actually awarded custody of the child to HIM (not the norm in the conservative county where I grew up) if that tells you anything about the maturity of the wife.

The DA had not only brought that charge but 19 other charges, I guess hoping to intimidate him and see which ones would "stick". He was so afraid of losing his son, which he thought was the only thing worth living for at that point that he pled guilty to a reduced charge because they told him he would at least be able to see his son. He did time in jail because of it.

In retrospect he should have fought the case to defend his record, now he is a registered sex offender under Megan's Law (he swears the judge said not to put him on a registry as part of the judgement). He STILL has custody of his son but he carries the stigma of "registered sex offender" around with him wherever he goes, people put up posters in the neighborhood..etc.

I will say that there are definitely sexual predators out there that we need to look for and I am glad there is legislation to protect children.

There are also some people who have been abused by the criminal justice system as well. He's even had police officers tell him that personally they thought the outcome was wrong, but police officers only enforce the law, they don't create it. He suffers from serious bouts of depression. He WAS studying to be in the medical profession, since he can no longer get licensed he can't work - he cannot afford to hire an attorney to help get a pardon or clear his record in any way.

[lizard-lix]

This one is tricky...

I started at 11, with an equally horny male friend, we did not start with girls until several years later.

Given that, I still think 18 is a good legal age, too many young folks I know do not seem mature enough to handle sex... Let them have time to grow up.

OTOH in some euro countries the age is 16.. but then again their culture there is somewhat less confused/prurient/falsely prudish than the US is.

But here is a flip side story. A gay buddy liked younger guys (he was early 30's), so he wen to the local college campus to look for dates. He picked up a guy who claimed to be 18 (he did not ask to see ID), and they spent some time together.

A short time later, the young man got busted for drugs and when offered an out by the police, he ratted out my buddy.

So the kid got off and my buddy is now a registered sex offender and can no longer practice law.. His life is essentially ruined, for having consensual sex with a minor (that was never questioned in the proceedings).

Was this right? NO! Is it right that people sexually molest kids? NO!

When I was 17, I was sleeping with a 15 YO girl. I was not her first and she was really the aggressor in the relationship. Then I turned 18, she was just turning 16. There for dumb luck go I, her dad could have had me locked up, luckily he didn't.

It is such a difficult question..

In the absence of a better solution, don't cross the 18 line, in the US... It is certainly NOT perfect, but it is reasonable.

[æonpax]

Here's something to consider,


A young girl in Mexico gave birth via c-section almost two months early a few weeks after being admitted to the hospital for life threatening pregnancy complications. She is not quite 11 years old. ~ http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/article/2011/11/10/10-year-old-gives-birth-at-31-weeks-due-to-medical-complications?mid=5283 ~

That is way too young.

[AsianDream]

The “Age of consent” topic interests me because I started at the age of 14 – which was perfectly legal in the jurisdiction in which this took place.

My first boyfriend was considerably older than me – but if anything I first seduced him – also I have never regretted the relationship since nor ever felt that this was in any way inappropriate.

I do think that sexual abuse of children is totally wrong – but think that the age of consent should be set at a realistic level. This is 14 in China and India (so about half the world) and I personally feel that they have got this about right. Rather than the Western idea of 18 or 21 as an age of consent.

Some people have said to me since that I am “over sexualized” because I became sexually active at an early age – but I don’t agree. My take on this is that I have had greater sexual experience than most of my age and that this can only be a positive thing..

I think that “age of consent” laws should reflect when people become sexually active – rather than some abstract concept of when they are “fully mature adults” – which is probably at around age 25

[darkeyes]

I think that “age of consent” laws should reflect when people become sexually active – rather than some abstract concept of when they are “fully mature adults” – which is probably at around age 25

This sweetie, is patent nonsense and takes no account of why people become sexually active.. the preyed upon, or the young who begin to fuck with their peers because they think they should are nowhere in your "consent" scenario.. western age of consent law is specific because of human complexity which is in itself abstract and because we cannot determine adequately criteria for maturity on an individual basis.. what u suggest invites the predator to do his worst and also irresponsible and ignorant sex among the young born of lack of maturity and naivity.. because we can physically shag, and can either conceive or cause conception does not mean we are in any way ready to do so...it just isnt as simple as that..

Complete physical maturity is not necessary in my opinion, but in both that and mental maturity a young person should have reached a level where participation in sexual activity is of their well educated and informed choice, and they are of sufficient maturity to deal with it properly thus minimising as far as they can dangers to health through disease or pregnancy and maximising their ability to resist the more predatory among us.. these things we cannot gauge properly because we all grow and develop at varying rates both mentally and physically.... and so we have a specific age at which, in a child's interest they can quite legally, if not entirely safely, but as safe as they can be through maturity and education, embark on the amazing journey a sex life can be..

[æonpax]

About 6 years ago (when I was still going to college) I did a paper on AOC laws, on the format that such laws were unjust. It took me 2 months (the allotted time) to complete it. I had to use facts and a strong logical argument.

I got a good grade on the paper but was forewarned that as good as it was, outside the academic environment, it could cause me problems...and they were right.

I will say, the culture of a community or society, plays a major part in how fast a child matures, emotionally and intellectually. Moreover, in light of the Penn State incident, more people are coming out and saying stuff like this;

Right Wing Media: "Predatory Homosexual Behavior" Caused Penn State Scandal (http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/right-wing-media-predatory-homosexual-behavior-caused-penn-state-scandal/news/2011/11/15/30232)

I might argue that the youth of America is being kept back from attaining their natural state of maturity for archaic and selfish reasons, but now, is not the time.

[love1234]

The “Age of consent” topic interests me because I started at the age of 14 – which was perfectly legal in the jurisdiction in which this took place.

My first boyfriend was considerably older than me – but if anything I first seduced him – also I have never regretted the relationship since nor ever felt that this was in any way inappropriate.

I do think that sexual abuse of children is totally wrong – but think that the age of consent should be set at a realistic level. This is 14 in China and India (so about half the world) and I personally feel that they have got this about right. Rather than the Western idea of 18 or 21 as an age of consent.

Some people have said to me since that I am “over sexualized” because I became sexually active at an early age – but I don’t agree. My take on this is that I have had greater sexual experience than most of my age and that this can only be a positive thing..

I think that “age of consent” laws should reflect when people become sexually active – rather than some abstract concept of when they are “fully mature adults” – which is probably at around age 25

Lots (all?) of the west is nuts run by control freaks and the people with low IQs think they are free.

Can't drink a beer here but they will send you off to get your brains blown out for the banker, gangsters and their wall streets.

[elian]

I was watching a History Channel special on the rise of the Nazi party, one item of note was the indoctrination received by the youth. The boys did physical drills and learned to beat each other up with fists. The girls worked at farms and learned that it was their duty to produce offspring. As many as 900 16 year old girls returned from one of these camps pregnant..when one mother learned about it and tried to go to the camp in protest her own daughter told her to shut up and go home - the daughter was "doing her duty" and she would personally report her own mother to the Gestapo if the mother tried to interfere.

This of course got me curious about sexuality in those times because I had heard about state run brothels specifically used to create more children. Turns out that is a little more dramatic then what it actually was but there were often times former rest homes or confiscated Jewish owned houses that were turned into orphanages for unwed mothers or unwanted children.. Of course the state did not have a taboo about mothers having children out of wedlock because the more young people in the direct care of the state the better..members of the army witnessed christening of these children.

The "female sexuality" material I was able to find on the net talked about the demoralization and denigration of female concentration camp prisoners..not very pleasant in any respect.

The 'male sexuality" material I was able to find focused on the treatment of homosexuals, including an essay talking about the idea that a great number of Nazi's in power had homosexual tendencies, lots of homoerotic symbolism they used, etc. ..and that idea that supposedly there was an internal conflict between "butch" and "femme" homosexuals..

I had to deprogram myself a bit because it wasn't much of a stretch to see the author starting to paint a picture that equated Nazism equally with pederasty and homosexual tendencies.

He seemed to imply that the majority of Nazi's were homosexual, which could not have been true...and I *KNOW* that not all "homosexuals" are "evil" in the way he insinuates without really saying it..

The whole learning experience left me with the impression that Hitler was a very manipulative, evil man. I always knew he was evil but this kind of showed a few more details. Also all of the strange things people used to take for granted to justify their theories of supremacy, etc. I DO believe that the occult exists but I don't abuse that belief the way these people did..terrible - anyone who spoke out was tortured or murdered..period.

There are a lot of people that seem to be calling for us to go back to "simpler" days - I for one am glad that we are wiser than that now. I love to believe in the positive potential of people, but we must also never forget that the human spirit is capable of vicious things as well.

It saddens me to think that when people are grasping for answers to the question "Why?" their old ignorant prejudices appear under trauma. "It MUST be the homosexual.." <sigh>

There are people who are homosexual who just can't wait for Mr Sandusky to "horse around in the showers" (as he politely put it) while in prison.. I'm usually not vindictive but if you don't want to insult your character by calling it RAPE, if that is what really happened then maybe it's time to learn some truth.

[love1234]

All you have to do is look at the gop (gay old perverts) and see the evil. Many homosexuals are evil, mean, back stabbers. They love power over people and controlling them. Just look into "The Franklin Cover Up".

[Long Duck Dong]

All you have to do is look at the gop (gay old perverts) and see the evil. Many homosexuals are evil, mean, back stabbers. They love power over people and controlling them. Just look into "The Franklin Cover Up".

I take serious offense to that, as most of the homosexual gentlemen I know, are not evil, mean, backstabbers.....they are decent, caring, loving people that are gay and like every other sexuality there is the bad apples in the barrel.....

its just a shame they have to share the world with people like you.....

[æonpax]

All you have to do is look at the gop (gay old perverts) and see the evil. Many homosexuals are evil, mean, back stabbers. They love power over people and controlling them. Just look into "The Franklin Cover Up".


Your opinion seems very tainted and your understanding of the human dynamics, appears flawed.

Police and law enforcement do not keep statistics on the sexual orientation or political ideology of offenders but as 80% of all child sexual assault cases involve an adult family member and some adult known to the child in a position of authority ( http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=410&Itemid=336 ) it can be safely inferred that the perpetrators are heterosexual.

You might also check into a group called Log Cabin Republicans (http://www.logcabin.org/site/c.nsKSL7PMLpF/b.5468093/k.BE4C/Home.htm) whom are Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual ...and GOP.
`
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[elian]

Oh love, it seems terribly unfair to lump a whole group of people into a category like that. If you believe as I do, that some people are born with a predisposition to be attracted to those of their own gender, that would be like saying "All women are mean spirited," Number one, it's not true, and number two it lumps a bunch of people together who potentially had no control over a characteristic they were born with. We who like same gender just have it a little easier because we can conceal ourselves better than someone who has the so called "wrong" genitals or skin color. Wrong of course meaning "not in the privileged majority".

I've always known I was a bit different than other boys but the real trigger that brought all of that out was the addition of environment and experience. If no one had screwed with my mind when I was younger I may have been a completely different person than who I am today.

The conservative party does protect something, but it's not homosexuality - it's wealth. I'm not even sure that all of the believers completely understand the link between what they call "fiscal responsibility" and preserving wealth but that is essentially what their polices have promoted over the years, at least for PORTIONS of our US society. Just like ANY political party they bend the framing of their words to suit their own agenda.

The definition of fiscal responsibility, to these people seems to be: "Tax hikes and debt are GOOD for stimulating the economy when we want to have a war we know damn well nobody but China can pay for (eight years later) ..now that we aren't in power anymore and we need something to get voted back in office; let's fight tooth and nail against debt and raising taxes because our opponent party wants to do it."

We don't need their motivation for so called "fiscal responsibility", as much as we need plain good common sense.

Poorly written tax code and fiscal law encouraged people with wealth to find "creative" ways of protecting and enhancing that wealth. (Such as earning massive commissions at a reduced tax rate and using the real estate market like an unregulated stock market). Poorly written social programs encouraged people who maybe couldn't REALLY afford that $750,000 house to go ahead and get into massive debt way over their heads.. The free market bank was more than happy to earn a commission on an "Interest Only" loan, "Look you can afford this $750,000 house, the payments are only $500/mo." Sooner or later the whole thing comes tumbling down..

Free trade agreements are good for "stimulating the economy" - I mean we might as well get it over with and let all of the free labor markets become unionized and have environmental regulation so that there's finally no where left to produce the "inexpensive" goods we all demand at the expense of the land and other people's health.

Let's not forget about the storm brewing over how (or how not) to pay for baby boomer pensions and health care.. Money that would have potentially been there if the corporations and government hadn't spent all of it up already thinking that "the day when we need that money" will be some day off in the distant future.

All I can say is, thanks guys - thanks a lot for managing the economy so well.

<shakes head .. mumbles something about forgiveness, tolerance and love>

[a2smith09]

As a previous reply says "Tricky Subject" and as the Penn State case and several other posters have emphatically alluded predatory sexual exploitation by an adult on a child is so wrong and evil in so many ways. So as far as that goes that behavior is totally unacceptable. As far as the AOC goes now that is a totally different issue and I don't think one age fits all. In my State the AOC is 16 for 18 and older and I think 13 if you are within 2 years of age of one another.

Now I'm originally from the rural south. My grandmother was married when she was 14 and my aunt born when she was 15. I've had several great aunts married when they were between 12 and 15. My great grandmother married my great grandfather when she was 12. He was 16. My mom was barely 18 when she married my dad and two of my aunts were 16 and another 15 when they got married. So this AOC at 18 is a very recent phenomonem and I think there ought to be a lot more flexibility there.

As far as I go, how young is too young within your peer group? Good question I was five or six when I started playing doctor like many of you with the neighborhood kids. Started off with you show me yours and I'll show you mine and progressed from there. We played doctor until the 5th grade and along the way we did lots of rubbing, kissing, touching, licking, and insertions. There were 3 guys and eight girls in the group and we took turns with one another. We did it because it was fun and felt real good. I personnally think that that was perfectly natural and acceptable behavior and I know my oldest daughter and her friends started when they were 5.

As far as sex for sex when I knew what it was started when we were 14. It was one of my best friends and we started having sex that summer and we still do today. Added a couple of other friends to the mix and my first sex with a girl happened when I was 15. I started having sex with a much older man that year too. He was the father of one of my girlfriends. I don't consider myself to be taken advantage of or exploited. I was willing, ready, and interested in learning more and he was a capable and excellent teacher. We had a wonderful relationship that I think extremely fondly upon still. I'd do it again and maybe start a bit younger.

[mollysaw]

I am not too sure about what age is ok for male to male sex but I was 12 years old when a older man taught me the ways of male sex and I love it. I remember him sucking me lots of times and we talked about me cuming and he showed me what he ment and the first time I watched him cum it turned me on so much I almost did cum watching. He let me play in his cum to show me it was ok to touch . I jerked off many times with no cum until one day he was sucking me and I cum and he swoled it and said it was good.
Then one day I was laying with my head on his belly and jerking him off when I just wanted to have his cock in my mouth and leaned over his cock and took it in my mouth and loved it. It did't take long for him to blow his load in my mouth and I swalowed it and loved the feel of it and taste of it and have swallowed every time a sucked a cock. So was it bad or good that I learned from a older man. I was ok with then and still an ok with it