Limits to Peaceful Assembly

[tenni]

The Occupy movement that had sprung up in many cities in North America is reaching a point where questions and actions are beginning.

In a city called London, ON, Canada last night the police moved in and removed the occupiers from a public space. In Vancouver, a woman died in the encampment due to a drug overdose on the weekend. Some claim that troublemakers and drug addicts have moved into the Occupy camps. In Vancouver and Toronto as well as I believe one US city mayors are beginning to remove the protestors as peacefully as they can. Protestors must remove their tents in Vancouver, BC by 2 pm Thursday, Vancouver time zone(Pacific Time Zone).

Meanwhile, the west supports occupy protests in the Ukraine( a few years ago), Egypt, Syria etc. without being critical.

This year's protests started in the middle east and governments toppled by populism. In the West, some state that there is no end game to the protests and unclear basis for the protests.

Will this morph into a significant social movement or faze out?

How are the protests in North America connected to those in Greece and Italy?...the middle east?


In your opinion, should there be limits to peaceful assembly?

[keefer201]

In my opinion it was done ten minutes after it started. It has been propped up by a liberal media wanting to stick a finger in the eye of those who work for a living. This is not about Wall St. or any millionaire who worked to get what he owns. This is about a bunch of dirty, malingering social nutjobs, who come from middle class America and are just too fucking stupid to realize that the 60's are 50 years in the past.

It will fizzle and fade into the trashbin of stupid ideas fostered by a communist by the name of George Soros. And that's exactly where it belongs.:eek:

[DuckiesDarling]

The problem with the differences in the protests in the Middle East and the protests in the Western World is a matter of causes. In the Middle East they were protesting against dictators with a history of human rights violations and it was a bloody clash but they got their freedom.

The Occupy movement started off in a good fashion, peaceful and protesting bailouts of big banks.

When it gets to the point it starts affecting the lives of ordinary people who are living paycheck to paycheck and not doing a thing to the "banks" it needs to stop.

There was recently a huge movement for people to sign up for Credit Unions and "Ditch the Bank" here in America. Many people took advantage of this even though they left banks that had served them well for years just to support the protestors about the big bank buyouts.

Now we have people who are not getting paid, not being able to go to work, not able to do their jobs in a timely fashion if they can go to work because of protestors who just jumped on the bandwagon. Keefer said it pretty well as well. It's a fad and I hope it goes out of fashion soon before the economy of the West totally crashes and takes the rest of the world down with us.

[keefer201]

I agree totally what DD said at the end. If the OWS gets what it wants, and they have no idea of what they want; which in reality is the collapse of the Western ideal of Capitalism, then the whole god damn thing goes swirling into a massive pile of insurrections and calamity. In this case, the rich will last only a week longer than the poor.

[æonpax]

I fully support the "Occupy" throughout the country and have attended a few rallies in support of it. While peaceful assembly is always ideal, there comes a time when it is not possible, especially in the case of wanton police brutality brought on by the corporations and the ideological right. In those cases, one needs to stand up and face their enemy, even if it means prison.



http://i.imgur.com/VW1e6.jpg

[Long Duck Dong]

I do support peaceful protest, but as has been shown on many occasions, even the most peaceful of protests, have a way of biting people on the ass

the occupy protests are no exception to the rule, as word is surfacing of the drugs, theft, vandalism issues connected with some of the protestors, but what is more disturbing, is the allegations of sexual assault and attempted rape of female protestors and the way they are being told to be quiet about this and do not involve the police, as it could lead to protest sites being disbanded....
this is not something that is a media tactic and a way of making the protestors look bad, its actually the protestors themselves that revealed what was going on, on protest sites, using their own means of communication.. as they become disillusioned with the way things are going within the protest movement.....

that to me, is a major failure of the protest groups to be self monitoring and self policing, and placing the lives, health and safety of protestors at risk, not from the corporations but from other protestors... and that to me, is often one of the major downfalls of protesting......

when you step outside of the fine lines that tend to hold society together, for better or worse, you step outside of the fine sides that also are there to give you justice, legal action and punishment of criminals......

call the police brutal and slaves to corporations as much as we want, call the legal system corrupt and immoral as much as we want, they are still the ones that have the power to deal with the criminals as best they can......
it appears to me that the occupy protestors ways of dealing with criminal behievour, is to try and silence the victims * for the better good of society *

yes I believe in the rights to peaceful assembly and the right to peaceful protest, but I also believe in the rights to have legal and judicial interaction when its needed..... and that is why in some cases, the best way to deal with protests like the occupy protest, is do nothing cos its the protesters themselves that will become the biggest threat to themselves, not the police or the corporations......

[æonpax]

I do support peaceful protest, but as has been shown on many occasions, even the most peaceful of protests,...<snipped for brevity>

Our country was founded by revolution, violent revolution. These farmers were unorganized and not formally educated but understood the sublime virtue of fairness and the concept of liberty. These people sacrificed their lives for those principles. They rebelled against laws that they considered unjust.

I do not advocate violence but neither will I sit in judgement of those, whom when pushed, push back. I will not tolerate terrorism nor allow authority to harm citizens, as they are doing, under the lie of maintaining law and order.

Rationalize this anyway you want but this country was founded on "civil disobedience" and on occasion, it's the only right thing to do.

[DuckiesDarling]

Aeon, at this point this "peaceful protest" is putting the very people it claims to protest for, out of work, out of food, out of Christmas shopping, basically out of living.

It's fine to protest but when a protest starts affecting negatively the very ones it claims to be protesting for, it's a bit hypocritical don't ya think?

[Long Duck Dong]

[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="4"]Our country was founded by revolution, violent revolution. These farmers were unorganized and not formally educated but understood the sublime virtue of fairness and the concept of liberty. These people sacrificed their lives for those principles. They rebelled against laws that they considered unjust.

I do not advocate violence but neither will I sit in judgement of those, whom when pushed, push back. I will not tolerate terrorism nor allow authority to harm citizens, as they are doing, under the lie of maintaining law and order.

Rationalize this anyway you want but this country was founded on "civil disobedience" and on occasion, it's the only right thing to do.

then I would suggest that you learn the difference between peaceful ( passive protest ) and aggressive protest.

talking about how america was founded, has little to do with the occupy protests, unless you are trying to suggest that the protestors need to be violent and aggressive in order to make their voices heard.

america wanted freedom from the rule of england, they wanted to self govern and self police, now you have americans fighting against self governing and self policing. ironic that the occupy movement is starting to suffer from the ill effects of lack of self governing and self policing, and may need the assistance and help of the people you want to refer to as brutal, IE the police, cos of criminal acts by some protestors against their own kind.

if you feel that the police have no place in this or that the victims of abuse, theft, assault and sexual assault by other members of the protest movement, should not involve the police in any way, cos its only a criminal act committed against people, then I would suggest you rethink your stance..... otherwise you are protesting against big business and allowing the *underdog * to be stomped on, by their own kind.

[Hephaestion]

We enjoy the freedoms and fair play won by our forefathers. They laid their safety and well being on the line when it counted.

Protesting about the misbehvaiour of bankers and governments should go on for as long as it needs to. It is the protestors' won right to do so. A right not used or fought for is a right lost; and how rights have been slowly eroded over time.

That protests cause incovenience and financial loss is down to the integrity of the financial world and government of the day. Without their misbehaviour there would be no need to protest. Failure and lack of integrity has been and is being rewarded, undemocratically.

The truth of the matter is that capitalism as it has been played (not capitalism per se) and abused cannot, must not, carry on in the fashion that it has. Great surprise when things start falling apart as if these things have not happened in the past. Right now the only answer offered by the authoritative bodies is to revive and resurrect the system and therefore the same old problems.

Wealth when it is generated must be real and not a silly game of misrepresenting situations and gambling on whims. Many governments themselves need to know what is real money and what is pipe dream finance for idiotic ambitions, these fuelled by the myth of the ever expanding economy.

As for the protestors and their failings, one should be aware that there are always agents provocateur and exploitation merchants. The entire thing is about reputation and credibility - 'pots calling the kettle black'

Now, who'se too weak to fight back? That's where we shall concentrate the exploitation.

.

[chuck1124]

The OWS protestors have done one thing. They have brought attention to themselves, more so than to the problem, because, none are really sure of what the problem is. The problem is not Wall Steet The problem is the the politicians that found a way to garner votes and allowed this to happen. The protesters don't seem to realize they are falling into the hands of those people. Compare these to the Tea Party protests and there is no comparison. There is a huge difference between peaceful protest (there was never violence at the Tea Parties regardless of what the media claimed) and the mob rule of this group of thugs. I would bet if you asked the average OWS protestor who their senator or congressman is, they would not know. If you want revolution, do it at the ballot box.

[tenni]

Thanks for the perspectives. My own perspective is that the protestors have been peaceful. The accusations of a bad group infiltrating the occupy groups may be true but complaints so far have been about drug addicts or street people. I understand that in at least Toronto a liberal political leader (Bob Rae) walked around the Occupy territory talking to the people there. He stated that he found them to be middle class and without work. There are recent uni grads working at mcjobs because they can not get anything else. I'd assume that they don't even have those mcjobs if they are at the Occupy location. The faces on the tv are not all young either.

I don't see the Occupy protestors putting anyone out of work. That isn't happening where I live. I think that an argument that it is negatively affecting others has some validity but then the same argument may be made about the Egyptian square and loss of revenue for any shops surrounding that square. I do think that an argument about the Egyptian protests appealing more to some because it had the veneer of democracy while the Occupy movement is less specific. The Protestors are not specific in their demands or there are too many demands that the public finds difficult to identify with has some validity.

Arguments about Remembrance Day ceremonies, Christmas coming, other activities being planned for the public space have some validity. I don't specifically see the Occupy movement as equivalent to the Tea Party in the sense that the Tea Party was a very geographical specific event(s) ie the USA while the Occupy movement has a bit more universal application as complaints about a global banking financial over manipulation.

With European governments failing and the threat of a more serious global recession on the horizon, I'd have thought that there would be more concern. As one poster argues capitalism seems to be slipping through this minor hoop. That may be because we are uncertain of the future and don't really know how to change things. The movement remains somewhat internationally leaderless and unclear.

What is also unclear is what will happen next. Will "it" wait until spring now? Will the masses fall silent?

[darkeyes]

The OWS protestors have done one thing. They have brought attention to themselves, more so than to the problem, because, none are really sure of what the problem is. The problem is not Wall Steet The problem is the the politicians that found a way to garner votes and allowed this to happen. The protesters don't seem to realize they are falling into the hands of those people. Compare these to the Tea Party protests and there is no comparison. There is a huge difference between peaceful protest (there was never violence at the Tea Parties regardless of what the media claimed) and the mob rule of this group of thugs. I would bet if you asked the average OWS protestor who their senator or congressman is, they would not know. If you want revolution, do it at the ballot box.

Ahhh yea.. world wide protest now and they are a group of thugs.. always the way when power feels under threat..

Revolution at the ballot box? The ballot box hun if ya didnt know is there to stop revolution.. it is there supposedly to allow the people to decide upon change.. sometimes its even quite radical change.. but mostly its the same ole peeps at the back and in the shadows tuggin the strings.. puppetmasters.. the names above the pub door might change an ther may be a lil cosmetic tartin' up inside, but the pub is still in the hands of the same ole brewery sellin the same ole wares..

Protest and civil disobedience are legitimate tools of democracy not its enemy... they are tools the people use when the ballot box has been shown 2 be inadequate and failed the electorate.. an old Tory politican in this country called parliamentary democracy nothing of the kind.. he called it "Elective Dictatorship".. he might have been a Tory and not someone I would normally have much time for but he did have a point.. and when the Elective Dictatorship/Parliamentary Democracy is failing its electorate, and democracy as you understand it fails the people what are they to do? Sit on their hands and accept the will, not of the people, but of the Executive or parliament for 3, 4 or 5 years wreaking destruction on them with a smile until a new election is called and hope for the best?

Protest and civil disobedience are tools of the people to show dissent and anger at the failings of those who rule us.. they are means by which people show their displeasure and persuade our political masters that all in the garden is not rosy, that they aren't going to get an easy ride and to change their ways.. they are instruments of change.. democratic instruments of change.. they work too sometimes... quite often actually... they dont always turn violent either.. which as a pacifist is something in which I am always in favour.. and where they do turn violent, dont always blame the demonstrator... there are far too many instances of the forces of the state playing dirty and being the instigators of violence to always blame those who protest..

Were it left to the ballot box alone where would civil rights be in the US? Gay rights? Women's rights? Human rights around the world? The ballot box has its place, but it is not all of what democracy is about and is not the only way to defend democracy and the rights of man. In itself the ballot box will never bring revolution but will stifle it... it needs a lil helping hand in between the casting of votes..

[DuckiesDarling]

Two things. Tenni, look at Oakland you'll see people out of work because the port was shut down with protestors.


Fran, supposedly the protest is about bad politicians funding the corporate world, where better than the ballot box to get rid of bad politicians?

Do not bring in other rights to this, it's a whole other ball game. This is not a repressive society they are trying to revolt against it's a group of people sick of the economy and hoping for a change. Where it went wrong is when it went from protest to riot. That is what I am hoping goes far away. :2cents:

[tenni]

I think that where it may go seriously wrong is if any of the Occupy locations become violent and there is physical injury and accusations may be directed at the police or politicians. In Toronto, we had the G20 reaction to peaceful assembly and protest. That wound is deep within sections of the public. There was a serious injustice and undemocratic treatment of innocent people(some were arrested and not even protesting).

Thus far, there was no negative reaction to the shutting down of the London ON occupation. Other than a labour leader speaking out. I don't think that he got a lot of support but I may be wrong. A few people attempted to put up tents and they were arrested last night. The public is on the side of the police and politicians imo right now. Within the next twenty four hours, all that may change in Canada. If Vancouver moves to break up the protest in front of the Vancouver Art Gallery and any violence or accusation of police brutality come forward, and then Toronto moves, it will be telling. It is almost like the mayors have suggested starting with a smaller protest to see how the public will react. Then they will move to larger cities and break up the peaceful assembly.

Thanks for the info about Oakland. That is one city amongst I don't know how many global protests are going on. As stated, there were probably many shops in the Egyptian square who sufferred financially. We overlook that then...but some do not overlook it now? I think that some of the perspectives might be predicted based upon past posts. It is still interesting to see how people interpret the changing world and how we contexualize supposed democratic principles.

[æonpax]

Aeon, at this point this "peaceful protest" is putting the very people it claims to protest for, out of work, out of food, out of Christmas shopping, basically out of living. It's fine to protest but when a protest starts affecting negatively the very ones it claims to be protesting for, it's a bit hypocritical don't ya think?

How do you figure that? I don't see the correlation between the two. Please extrapolate.

[æonpax]

<snip><unsnip>...talking about how america was founded, has little to do with the occupy protests, unless you are trying to suggest that the protestors need to be violent and aggressive in order to make their voices heard.

america wanted freedom from the rule of england, they wanted to self govern and self police, now you have americans fighting against self governing and self policing. ironic that the occupy movement is starting to suffer from the ill effects of lack of self governing and self policing, and may need the assistance and help of the people you want to refer to as brutal, IE the police, cos of criminal acts by some protestors against their own kind.

if you feel that the police have no place in this or that the victims of abuse, theft, assault and sexual assault by other members of the protest movement, should not involve the police in any way, cos its only a criminal act committed against people, then I would suggest you rethink your stance..... otherwise you are protesting against big business and allowing the *underdog * to be stomped on, by their own kind.

Sir,

The ideology behind the American revolution is the same as OWS. Your understanding of US history and the logic behind your reply is a tad bit, different, as I understand such things. Here's your quote;


america wanted freedom from the rule of england, they wanted to self govern and self police, now you have americans fighting against self governing and self policing
You make one hell of a logical jump stating that OWS is against "self governing and self policing" and to be honest, it doesn't make sense. The Revolutionary war was economic from the farmer end of it. These people were revolting becuase taxes were not only unfair but they were getting bled to death, financially.

In the same token, what the corporations have done and are still doing to America and Americans, demands immediate action, which is what OWS is all about.

I've been to two OWS rallies (all very friendly with police) and I'll give you this, I counted 16 different causes represented there. It was loosely organized but there was something else...something apparently alien to those blinded by partisan dogma, something called "esprit de corps".

I saw young, old, students, handicapped, black, white, latino, gay, religious...just a lot of different people. No one spoke the malarky you are trying to push off as fact.

[void()]

Two things. Tenni, look at Oakland you'll see people out of work because the port was shut down with protestors.

The ports remained open and functioning. They ran at lower capacity yet functioned. A longshoreman stated in an interview it only put them behind one day to support the Occupy movement.

People were not forcibly out of work over this incident. Although, many others are forcibly out of work due to other incidents.

A group of union laborers took a day off to stand with Occupy, returned to work the next day. The bosses were given advanced notice and it was viewed as being amicable. At least, this is what I understood from various media.

Some point at banks, some point at politics, some at big business and the truth is we created it. Now, we need to desperately and are trying to solve it. I think winds of change will bring war next.

It happened before, with Japan and America. Japan sent an ambassador to discuss avoiding coming into WWII with the POTUS of the time. This ambassador came thrice with no avail, was ignored. Then, Japan came to war. Look it up, it's factual and actual, it did happen and was recorded.

Things are what they are and will be. I try not to focus on it much. Lots beyond my influence, can only change me. Read, live, learn and do best able to continue. All anyone may do.

[tenni]

Thanks Void for the further clarification. I have not been able to keep up on that specific location.

What is going on in Britain about this Occupy movement? Nothing? or?

[darkeyes]

Thanks Void for the further clarification. I have not been able to keep up on that specific location.

What is going on in Britain about this Occupy movement? Nothing? or?

Britain isnt quiet Tenni babes.. there are camps in a couple of dozen of our major cities including me own.. have been out and about in both here and Glasgow.. mostly everything has been peaceful and well mannered.. a few nasty incidents including a rape in the Glasgow camp a few weeks ago, but overwhelmingly it is good natured and every day takes off and draws in more people... and gains more support from the population at large..

The major centre is of course St Pauls in London.. a short lived camp was also set up yesterday in Trafalgar square to concide with a student demo, but St Pauls is the UK's main thing.. the church having backed off from taking the camp to court and have it closed.. much to the chagrin of capitalisms major friend in this country, the City of London and its gob piece, the City of London Corporation who had no choice but to back off too... the fuzz in London would love to get stuck in too I suspect but they are a bit hamstrung by the Church of England's now passive stance..

http://www.occupybritain.co.uk/

[darkeyes]

Fran, supposedly the protest is about bad politicians funding the corporate world, where better than the ballot box to get rid of bad politicians?

Do not bring in other rights to this, it's a whole other ball game. This is not a repressive society they are trying to revolt against it's a group of people sick of the economy and hoping for a change. Where it went wrong is when it went from protest to riot. That is what I am hoping goes far away. :2cents:

I mentioned rights as examples of what protest and civil disobedience defend and gain.. no other reason Darlin' darlin'.. but as the crisis of capitalism deepens..I reckon we will have to look to defending them a bloody sight more than we have hitherto.. capitalism and its minions are in a mess and they know it.. they havent begun to fight dirty yet.. but as the crisis deepens it will... then look to your rights... then they become inextricably linked to the mess they have gotten us into.

..and this movement is about far more than just the economy.. it is about the fundamentally corrupt nature of the economic system in which we live, which refuses to take any blame for the mess we have, and continues to make sure everyone pays for that mess except those who created it. It has never been just about the economy and change.. it is about capitalism and change.. it is about living and change.. it is about human bengs first and foremost and creating an economic system which is responsive to the needs of human beings and not just profiting from and heartlessly exploiting them...

In this country we have a tradition where demonstration protest and civil disobedience make governments think again and make them change.. sometimes Darlin' darlin'.. elections are called and governments pay for their stupity... I repeat.. the ballot box is not a be all and end all and our elected representatives need a collective boot up the backside.. then we protest, demonstrate and disobey...

[want2havefun]

The right to assemble etc is a red herring in this context.

At this point the OCCUPY retards are nothing more than mostly a collection of lazy socialist assholes who should occupy a job....well that and winos....rather than camping illegally in a park etc.
Its a total bullshit movement. One minute condemning/protesting a bank, the next minute depositing their occupy funds in the same bank. :rolleyes:
They feel living in America 'entitles' them to all kinds of things they are not entitled to at all. These stupid fucks should be rounded up and dumped in a god forsaken wilderness with nothing other than the right to moral freedom and the right to work to survive for a month or two. At the end of a couple months we'll come back for any survivors and then we'll see what they really think is important in life.

[jamieknyc]

Slow down everyone, there is a lot of false information being disseminated about OWS, mostly by people who have never been there and know nothing about it. That includes members of the press, who have sometimes published alarmist stories without actually visiting Zuccotti Park. Since I am the only person here with direct personal knowledge of OWS, let me set the record straight:

The protests have been peaceful and orderly. No thugs, drug dealers, rapists or other criminals are allowed there. OWS has its own internal security force that throws out people who make trouble. Those who won't leave voluntarily are turned over to the NYPD.

No drugs or alcohol are allowed in Zuccotti Park. There has been no property damage in Zuccotti Park or anywhere else.

The site is cleaned daily by protestors working under the direction of the OWS sanitation working group. Stories of people urinating or defecating on the site are untrue.

Apart from protest marches around the financial district or the courthouses about once a week, no protestors have blocked any streets or sidewalks, blocked access to local businesses or interfered with people going to and from work. In fact, many protestors are people who work in the area and join the protest on their lunch hour or after work.

No one in the area has been disturbed by the protest, other than by a group of drummers. OWS has made the drummers cut down the drumming to lunch hour and 4:00-6:00 p.m.

[darkeyes]

The right to assemble etc is a red herring in this context.

At this point the OCCUPY retards are nothing more than mostly a collection of lazy socialist assholes who should occupy a job....well that and winos....rather than camping illegally in a park etc.
Its a total bullshit movement. One minute condemning/protesting a bank, the next minute depositing their occupy funds in the same bank. :rolleyes:
They feel living in America 'entitles' them to all kinds of things they are not entitled to at all. These stupid fucks should be rounded up and dumped in a god forsaken wilderness with nothing other than the right to moral freedom and the right to work to survive for a month or two. At the end of a couple months we'll come back for any survivors and then we'll see what they really think is important in life.

I can see you think very deeply about this.:)

[want2havefun]

I just call 'em like I see 'em....the beauty of freedom of speech. :)
If you dropped by my local OCCUPY fucktard gathering you would likely see pretty much what I have described.

[bullhead69]

I do believe peoploe have the right to protest. But in this case I think the protesters are only going to shoot themselves in the foot...

[jamieknyc]

I just call 'em like I see 'em....the beauty of freedom of speech. :)
If you dropped by my local OCCUPY fucktard gathering you would likely see pretty much what I have described.

You don't call 'em like you see 'em, because I am at Zuccotti Park every day, and I didn't see you there.

[tenni]

Jamie
Thanks for the info update about NY city. Thanks to darkeyes as well.

What we all may becoming aware that these protests are not geographically specific. There is more of an overarching connection...whether a fad or something deeper.

There may be variables changing outcomes or progress in various global areas.

Like NY, I don't believe that there is alchohol and it is outsiders who have brought drugs in. The mix of people who are there is changing after a month in many parts of Canada.

In Toronto, today, a woman Occupier stated on TV that she believes that at the present time that it is not safe for women to walk in the park at night as others are coming in to the park at night. The organizers may not be able to protect women protestor or haven't figured out a way. There is no comment about the police at this point as that probably would not make it less confrontational.

Today, their was a sub group going to march from the park to city hall to talk to city councillors in an attempt to circumvent the mayor who has made a public statement that time is up. Each city has varying bylaws as to how they may deal with the occupy groups. In Toronto's case, the mayor may have difficulty ejecting the protestors because part of the land is owned by the neighbouring Anglican church. The church has made a public statement that it will not attempt to get the Occupier protestor removed. (the porta toilets are on the Church land of the park).

At present, it is a delicate matter in Toronto and Vancouver. Like NY city, Canada's Occupy movement is soon to be made more complicated by the cold. A Vancouver judge has made a ruling that all flamable material and devices to make heat are to be removed from the camps for safety reasons. This includes tarp tents. Fortunately, Vancouver has a milder temperature. There was one lone Occupier in Whitehorse, Yukon and he has voluntarily left due to the on coming cold. Canucks are tough towards cold but not crazy...:bigrin:

[jamieknyc]

In New York, Zuccotti Park is not a city park but rather the plaza for an office building, and is private property. The owner, Brookfield Properties (a giant commercial landlord in New York) has deemed it wiser to not interfere, so the City has no legal right to oust them.

[want2havefun]

You don't call 'em like you see 'em, because I am at Zuccotti Park every day, and I didn't see you there.

Perhaps you have reading failure.

And I dont really give a shit about your pie in the sky bullshit gathering of whining douchebags at Zuccotti Park....which BTW is no where near my area.

[jamieknyc]

Perhaps you have reading failure.

And I dont really give a shit about your pie in the sky bullshit gathering of whining douchebags at Zuccotti Park....which BTW is no where near my area.

The only person who acts like a whining douche bag is you. Your world is over, and your stupid little prejudices have been left behind now.

[want2havefun]

The permanent misfits can find salvation only in a complete separation from the self; and they usually find it by losing themselves in the compact collectivity of a mass movement. By renouncing individual will, judgment and ambition, and dedicating all their powers to the service of an eternal cause, they are at last lifted off the endless treadmill which can never lead them to fulfillment.- Eric Hoffer


LOLzzzz....:tongue:
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/314514_2494488208254_1434290387_32907091_130417616 5_n.jpg

[want2havefun]

The only person who acts like a whining douche bag is you. Your world is over, and your stupid little prejudices have been left behind now.

Sorry s***head, but I am not whining. I work very hard and dont expect anything from anyone except freedom of conscience. You should do the same. :)
And....you know nothing about me...or my world...except that I believe your OWS whiner/douchebag movement is silly nonsense.

[want2havefun]

http://pajamasmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ANARCHISTS-FOR-BIGGOVT.png

[darkeyes]

Sorry s***head, but I am not whining. I work very hard and dont expect anything from anyone except freedom of conscience. You should do the same. :)
And....you know nothing about me...or my world...except that I believe your OWS whiner/douchebag movement is silly nonsense.

Well.. maybe a lil moren just freedom of conscience.. maybe wages for all that hard work??? Lets see howya feel bout all this silly nonsense if your job goes down the Swanee as a result of all these nice private bankers.. hope it doesnt happen, but the way things are goin' things are 'bout get a helluva lot worse... don't suppose ya care... o well.. more to be pitied than scorned..:)

[want2havefun]

Beyond being mostly a rabble of socialist idiots, the OWS douchetards are occupying the wrong place.
Instead of attacking greedy businessmen who utilize laws, lawmakers, & policies to their advantage they should occupy the place where those laws & policies are made. Hint: They arent made on Wall Street. ;)
But, now the OWS clowns are themselves in need of a CFO. lol.... so much on hating big business.

As for things getting far worse, I do care...but all of that is inevitable.
Dont pity me, I dont need it.

[DuckiesDarling]

Thing is Want, it's not just the Wall Street protestors that is being talked about here. Jamie has experience with the Wall Street protestors as it pretty much happened near his office, others have experience as it's grown and spread across the country. Even my closet big town was hit by them and it was mostly peaceful here, but in other places where it's getting a bit rough and police are being told to arrest them and resistance is occurring that make me shake my head.

[keefer201]

Beyond being mostly a rabble of socialist idiots, the OWS douchetards are occupying the wrong place.
Instead of attacking greedy businessmen who utilize laws, lawmakers, & policies to their advantage they should occupy the place where those laws & policies are made. Hint: They arent made on Wall Street. ;)
But, now the OWS clowns are themselves in need of a CFO. lol.... so much on hating big business.

As for things getting far worse, I do care...but all of that is inevitable.
Dont pity me, I dont need it.

I got your back on this one, Wants. People like you and I need to realize that most here think that to be bisexual means that you're a liberal. It's like talking to a fucking cardboard box. Not one of them has made a valid point as to just what in the fuck OWS is about, not a one. The very system that they howl about is one and the same system that got them what they posess today. Stop banging your head to a bunch of fucking nitwits.

[darkeyes]

Beyond being mostly a rabble of socialist idiots, the OWS douchetards are occupying the wrong place.
Instead of attacking greedy businessmen who utilize laws, lawmakers, & policies to their advantage they should occupy the place where those laws & policies are made. Hint: They arent made on Wall Street. ;)
But, now the OWS clowns are themselves in need of a CFO. lol.... so much on hating big business.

As for things getting far worse, I do care...but all of that is inevitable.
Dont pity me, I dont need it.

I'm a socialist.. am certainly no idiot.. early days yet.. things are tootling along just dandy..;)

I'm sorry.. but you have my pity anyway..:)

[want2havefun]

Ahh yeah...the European socialist model....its working so well. :rolleyes:
Trust me darkeyes...YOU have MY pity.

[darkeyes]

I got your back on this one, Wants. People like you and I need to realize that most here think that to be bisexual means that you're a liberal. It's like talking to a fucking cardboard box. Not one of them has made a valid point as to just what in the fuck OWS is about, not a one. The very system that they howl about is one and the same system that got them what they posess today. Stop banging your head to a bunch of fucking nitwits.

..another nice man.:rolleyes:

[12voltman59]

Beyond being mostly a rabble of socialist idiots, the OWS douchetards are occupying the wrong place.
Instead of attacking greedy businessmen who utilize laws, lawmakers, & policies to their advantage they should occupy the place where those laws & policies are made. Hint: They arent made on Wall Street. ;)
But, now the OWS clowns are themselves in need of a CFO. lol.... so much on hating big business.

As for things getting far worse, I do care...but all of that is inevitable.
Dont pity me, I dont need it.

If you don't think that the policies don't really come from places like Wall Street and such that are fucking this country up--then I want to be your drug dealer--because you are high on some damn good crack cocaine!!!

[want2havefun]

Even my closet big town was hit by them and it was mostly peaceful here, but in other places where it's getting a bit rough and police are being told to arrest them and resistance is occurring that make me shake my head.

Yes, whenever you gather a mindless mob together resistance to reasonable behavior/requests tends to take place. In those clashes there will be casualties, one of which could be our civil rights by virtue of backlash.
Mindless and violent resistance could itself lead to a degradation of the right to assemble. The occupy idiots should think seriously about that.

[darkeyes]

Yes, whenever you gather a mindless mob together resistance to reasonable behavior/requests tends to take place. In those clashes there will be casualties, one of which could be our civil rights by virtue of backlash.
Mindless and violent resistance could itself lead to a degradation of the right to assemble. The occupy idiots should think seriously about that.

Ho hum.. tickle me tum... poor ole Want talks out 'is bum...:rolleyes:

[DuckiesDarling]

Thing is they are not Occupy idiots, the ones that are causing the problems are the ones that are along for the ride. The original concept of it is something I do agree with, but I think the point was made and with a recent election day in the past, the point was heard and understood by voters.

[want2havefun]

If you don't think that the policies don't really come from places like Wall Street and such that are fucking this country up--then I want to be your drug dealer--because you are high on some damn good crack cocaine!!!

Well, if the that comment is any indicator you must have access to it.

Seriously, if you need a civics lesson perhaps you should read some text books.

[æonpax]

Beyond being mostly a rabble of socialist idiots, the OWS douchetards are occupying the wrong place.
Instead of attacking greedy businessmen who utilize laws, lawmakers, & policies to their advantage they should occupy the place where those laws & policies are made. Hint: They arent made on Wall Street. ;)
But, now the OWS clowns are themselves in need of a CFO. lol.... so much on hating big business.As for things getting far worse, I do care...but all of that is inevitable. Dont pity me, I dont need it.

You don't understand what it's all about. No one in OWS ever said get rid of corporations. But their greed has hurt and has caused the death of many innocent people.


http://i.imgur.com/RSdnv.jpg

[darkeyes]

Well, if the that comment is any indicator you must have access to it.

Seriously, if you need a civics lesson perhaps you should read some text books.

Tee hee.. yas priceless babes... really priceles.. havent giggled so much at .com for months...:bigrin:

[void()]

"Not one of them has made a valid point as to just what in the fuck OWS is about, not a one."

I do not go to the gatherings. I do read and keep abreast of current events. I also think critically, form views based on awareness. I am not responsible for any involved and not accountable either. I do feel compelled to give you a brief overview of 'what in the fuck it's about'.

I grew up with parents whom knew debt constantly. Granted they both may have made few bad choices here and there. No one is perfect. No one.

As I grew and went to public school a mantra was chanted by everyone of authority. "Work hard, get good grades, go to college and get a dream job. You can have the American Dream, two kids, house and dog." In my case as I stumbled with math in school, emotional issues caused by a crazy step-father, the mantra was "Graduate, join the service or work a trade."

Not much choice for someone whom missed intelligence on the ASVAB by one point. Oddly, the service discharged me for not being 'properly educated'. I am still foggy about that.

Now, I am 40 years old. I worked on a farm, in an acre sized garden, in corn fields cutting corn by hand all day, at various other blue collar work. I'm good at manual labor, it comes easy. I bore of it, it becomes a matter of going through motions. I wind up yelling "automate this!" And frankly I could do lots of the work, the jobs I held, while asleep. Yes, do them proficiently, correctly and safely.

Bosses love me because I wind up doing two or six times the work for the pay of one. It is how I was taught to work since age five. I've done that for thirty five years. I'm wearing out, life and hard work do that.

Retraining to do white collar work is difficult. i doubt my ability to do it, not so much as a matter of not having the capacity as having the funding. I would need full grants as I cannot possibly use loans, that would be more debt. Life and hard work also require money, cars need gas, bodies need medical repairs and so on.

What it is about is $7.25 hrly being a good wage for 1968 but not 2011. It's about having to choose to either pay a doctor and get tendon damage repaired, or eating for the next day, or putting gas in a car to work more, maybe i can see a doctor ... someday.

It's about self worth, a man likes to feel he does good work and gets good paid, can afford providing for family. It's about pain, misery, depression and feeling like the world shouts "fuck you" in your face every time you wake up.

A person grows weary of facing such a gun in the face all the time. It's about standing up and saying clearly, "no, fuck you world." If you still don't get it, i doubt you will. That's fine, just go on living your life of privilege and tearing others down to better yourself.

That's obviously where you live. It's about human dignity. Thanks for revealing yourself as a robot.

[12voltman59]

One of the core issues of those who make up "the occupiers" has to do with them being tired of being basically screwed by those on Wall Street--a group that by and large----is responsible for this current mess.

Sure--the moves to make it easier for many people to qualify for home loans did surely play a part---but that was something that was pretty much a bipartisan thing---it was not just Barney Frank who is guilty alone--George Bush himself pushed the idea that everyone should own his or her own home.

The bigger problem came not just in the loans themselves--but the fact that so many of the rules came off when it came to financial dealings----things like back in the Clinton era--on a bipartisian effort they ended rational reasonable controls on the banking industry like Glass-Steagle.

Other deregulatory actions took place on the part of Congress, the Executive branch, and the courts that blurred the line between banks, insurance, stock firms, etc.

Once the rules were off--the rats would play and play they did with things like the Credit Default Swaps and other things of that nature--things that were all about these guys making money while screwing everyone else.

I wished that more people knew who John "Jack" C. Bogle is----Bogle was the founder of the Vanguard Mutual Fund--one of the first of that type and one of the biggest and best performing such funds.

The man in recent years has made the rounds talking about dangers he sees in our modern system----he argues that one of the biggest threats to the continued viability of this nation has to do with the ever growing gap between those at the top of the economic heap and the rest of us--that such conditions only exist in some of the worst countries in the world.

He also is against the fact that those same Wall Street people make all of their vast wealth from playing games with and moving around other people's money---they don't make any money making anything of value---and that our country is largely not making anything anymore.

Now--the Occupiers probably don't know about Bogle--but actually many of their arguments are the same----that these days---the system is being rigged against the average person and is tilted towards those at the very top----it is indisputable that an ever smaller percentage of the population holds more and more of the wealth.

Many of those who are sitting as the occupiers are those who have done what they were told in that "you should go get a college degree in order to be successful" but now they have a degree or maybe a few of them and guess what---they cannot find a job that pays them what they might have earned in earlier times and that so many college grads cannot find jobs that is a dangerous thing for a society and if anyone thinks otherwise---you don't know history!!

We also of course have plenty of people of my age---the boomers who got to a certain point and the jobs for them went away with no new jobs coming.

To Wants and the rest of those who think that the Occupiers are some sort of anarchists or trouble makers or whatever---they are simply people who do realize that the system is being gamed and they are coming out on the short end of the stick when they did "play by the rules."

Actually---if you really do look at the roots of both the Tea Party at first and the Occupiers it comes from the same place---it just gets expressed differently.

Sorry that you are not able to see this is so----they are actually being what good Americans have done since before we created this country--they see injustice and unfair practices taking place and they are responding to it----I dare say that the roots of what the Occupiers are about is going to grow to include more people and will hopefully be the movement that actually does get this nation back on "the right track."

The Tea Party might have had some potential--but the fact is--that movement actually got taken over by the "money interests" and also got off track by not really coming to focus on job creation and such---but decided to resurrect and even amplify the most extremist "cultural war" shit like that measure down in Mississippi that if it had passed--would have gotten rid of not only abortion, but many contraceptives, banned in vitro fertilization and require police to investigate women who miscarry!! Thank God---the voters in Mississippi killed that stupid thing in the same numbers we in Ohio killed Issue2/SB5, by overwhelming margins!!

[12voltman59]

We did have a time in this country that capitalism was free to do what it would--and guess what we had as a result??

We had atrocious working conditions that either killed each and every worker in great numbers in short order and surely killed them in the long term.

We had totally polluted waterways, air and land.

Going back to work---you didn't make shit for a wage-in fact--in many of our early industries like in the coal fields of West Virginia, eastern Kentucky along the Big Sandy, parts of Virginia and East Tennessee they didn't pay workers in actual money--they paid them in "SCRIPT" and you lived in company provided housing, your furniture and food came from the company store---remember the great song by old Tennessee Ernie Ford?? "Sixteen Tons" with the reframe of "St Peter don't ya know that I can't goo?? I owe my soul to the company store."

I had thought that SCRIPT had gone out in the 40s or the 50s but one coal company in WVa actually continued to pay it until the early 1970s!!!

Back to what lassiez-faire capitalism wrought----"childhood labor," working days at a time and weeks and months on end with no idea that an average pissant grunt worker ever deserved such a thing as a VACATION!!!

Lets look at some of the "evil things" that the godless communists/socialists brought to America----a regular work week with vacation time and even sick time in some cases, actually getting MONEY for working---actually being able to afford to buy the things your factory makes and those made in other factories, the water, air and land got cleaned up so you could breathe, eat the fish in the water (for the most part) surely the water didn't burn, you actually might be able to walk away from a days working in the factory or mill and not lose a limb or get killed, your kids didn't have to work anymore---just a whole lot of horrible things like that!! Holy shit government and socialism is so freaking evil!!

Go back to a day of Lassiez-Faire free form capitalism??--no fucking way----capitalism yes--with reasonable controls---but letting them do as they will----that is a failed experiment.

Yea know---America actually seemed to really blossom and prosper when it was a system that raised the "tide and raised all boats"-today we are not in danger of going to socialism and all that crap---we are actually heading for the danger of being an oligarchy like the tin pan latin natiions and surely like Russia and former Soviet states have become with a few rich oligarchs owning most things and most people sucking wind!!

[mikey3000]

You can't blame all the capitalists. After all, greed is the central theme in the American culture. What all the CEO's and corporate big wigs are doing is just what the average Joe on the street is doing too. "Joe" shops at Walmart cause they can save the most $$. The more you save the more you have, right? Well, outsourcing to India or China is the global Walmart. If you really want to stop corporate greed, loosten YOUR purse strings and support your local business (if there are any left). Don't be a hypocrite. There are so many smart ways to protest. I suggest finding one that will actually accomplish something.

[Long Duck Dong]

Sir,

The ideology behind the American revolution is the same as OWS. Your understanding of US history and the logic behind your reply is a tad bit, different, as I understand such things. Here's your quote;


america wanted freedom from the rule of england, they wanted to self govern and self police, now you have americans fighting against self governing and self policing
You make one hell of a logical jump stating that OWS is against "self governing and self policing" and to be honest, it doesn't make sense. The Revolutionary war was economic from the farmer end of it. These people were revolting becuase taxes were not only unfair but they were getting bled to death, financially.

In the same token, what the corporations have done and are still doing to America and Americans, demands immediate action, which is what OWS is all about.

I've been to two OWS rallies (all very friendly with police) and I'll give you this, I counted 16 different causes represented there. It was loosely organized but there was something else...something apparently alien to those blinded by partisan dogma, something called "esprit de corps".

I saw young, old, students, handicapped, black, white, latino, gay, religious...just a lot of different people. No one spoke the malarky you are trying to push off as fact.



self policing and self governing is a state where people in a group, work together to form a structured and balanced unity within the cohesive nature of the group for the benefit of all concerned....

as i have posted, the protestors themselves are the ones talking about the issues with theft, vandalism, sexual assault and drug use, not the media.... the reports about this are coming from within the OWS movement and the protestors themselves, unhappy with the way things are going wrong....

self policing and self governing is when a group such as OWS would remove the people they deem to be undesirable, unacceptable, talking out of turn etc etc..... and that would go against their very stance of having the right to be heard, the right to express themselves etc etc.....

america, like every other country, is not perfect..... and after america kicked the english out, they then started to turn on each other, and started to create laws, rules and quidelines as part of their self governing and self policing.... the ows is mirrored in the same way, as there are different groups within the ows in the same way there is different states in america.....

eventually that is going to be the key to the downfall of the ows, each group is going to have a different understanding and overview of what is right, and that is going to cause a lot of infighting..... in the same way that you have different states in the us with different ideas and ideologies....

now the OWS is bitching about the corporations, so here is a simple question, instead of bitching about the problem, come up with a solution that works.....
not a solution that people can agree on cos no matter what solution somebody comes up with, there will always be people that have a issue with it.......

and the other thing the OWS need to do, is take responsibility for what they created..... cos like the rest of america, they are part of the issue as corporations can not exist without people, and no matter what way people argue that, its a simple fact of life.... a bit like corrupt governments, they got elected into power, and that required people to vote for them.....

[mikey3000]

Actually the American revolution was meant to break from England's tyranical Federal Reserve banking system, thus all the different currencies floating around the U.S. for ages. Then some smart men diecovered the Benefits of Frderal Reserve banking. By executive order of President Woodrow Wilson, a PRIVATELY OWNED federal reserve system was established. Thus, the global elite get richer.

[12voltman59]

Some words by someone much smarter than I on what he thinks the broader meanings of the Occupy Movement:

Occupy Movement Demands Fresh Thinking -- For Our Grandchildren
by David Suzuki

The laws of physics tell us we can't build a rocket that will travel faster than the speed of light, that gravity governs objects on Earth, and that perpetual motion machines are not possible. In chemistry, diffusion constants, reaction rates, and atomic properties set the limits of chemical reactions and types of molecules that can be synthesized. Biology dictates our absolute need for clean air, clean water, clean soil, clean energy, and biodiversity for our survival and health.

Those are laws of nature and we can't change them. We have to live within their boundaries. Capitalism, free enterprise, the economy, corporations, currency, markets, and regional borders are not forces of nature. We invented them. If they don't work, we can and must change them.

Instead we try to alter nature to fit our priorities. Look at what happened at the Copenhagen Climate Summit in December 2009. We saw 192 nations gathered to deal with the atmosphere that belongs to no one -- 192 national borders, 192 economic priorities, trying to shoehorn nature to fit our creations! We should be looking for ways to make our systems work with nature, not the other way around.

It's a message that's starting to emerge from the Occupy movement. It's not just about the one per cent who rake in an ever-increasing proportion of society's wealth while 99 per cent bear the real costs. It's also about corporate power and the systems that facilitate it. A few corporations have become bigger than most governments.

Occupiers know, because so many are young, that the inequities represented by the one per cent today are also intergenerational. Although not all corporations are bad, many of them, and the super-rich who run them, are increasing their wealth at the expense of generations to come -- exhausting resources, extinguishing species, and poisoning air, water, and soil. The costs of those problems will be most strongly felt by successive generations to come, yet economists discount them.

Why do the governments we elect to look after our well-being and future act as cheerleaders for the corporate sector? Because money talks.

Corporations may produce or do things that we need and that are good for society, but their real mandate is to make money, and the more they make and the faster they make it, the better. Corporations are said to be the economic engines of society. But as Joel Bakan explains in his book The Corporation, when profit is their primary goal, corporate leaders will fight to reduce their share of taxes, demand subsidies, oppose regulations, and fire hundreds of employees for the sake of the bottom line.

Globalization does not encourage the highest standards for workers, communities, or ecosystems. Instead, corporations often go for the lowest standards of medical care, wages, and environmental regulations because it's all about maximizing profit. The global economy means our garbage and toxic effluents are shared with the world, dumped into the air, water, and land.

When you buy running shoes, a cell phone, or a car, it's almost impossible to know whether slave or child labor was involved in its production. How can you be aware of the ecological impacts or the toxic materials that may be generated in the manufacturing process? These costs are hidden, yet each time we make a purchase, we become part of that system that exploits people and ecosystems.

To me, the Occupy movement is about putting decisions and democracy back into the hands of people. We need democracy for people, not corporations; we want greater equity; we demand social justice; and we want to recognize and protect our most fundamental needs -- clean air, clean water, clean soil, clean energy, biological diversity, and communities that support our children with love and care.

My generation and the boomers who followed have lived like reckless royalty and thoughtlessly partied like there's no tomorrow. We forgot the lessons taught to us by our parents and grandparents who came through the Great Depression: live within your means and save some for tomorrow; satisfy your needs and not your wants; help your neighbors; share and don't be greedy; money doesn't make you a better or more important person. Well, the party's over. It's time to clean up our mess and think about our children and grandchildren.
Copyright © 2011 David Suzuki
David Suzuki

David Suzuki is a well-known Canadian scientist, broadcaster and environmental activist.



One of the points that the occupiers have been making is one I like and agree with-----where in the Constitution does it say directly or indirectly that corporations are like people and that money equals free speech-----as Robert Bork liked to say----he was not for anything not "clearly enumerated in the Constitution" and didn't have much use for "the penumbral rights" like abortion "rights' rights for minorities, gays etc that he said that left wing "judicial activist" judges created out of "whole cloth." That is the basic operating view of those in the Federalist Society. They argue that 'we need to turn back the clock" on things like that--but don't have any problem with things like the Citizens United ruling that essentially grants corporations extraordinary "rights" To anyone who didn't get the joke in my post above to Wants about "being his drug dealer'__I said that because to my mind---he really seems to have been "drinking" the right wing "Kool Aide" on this issue---he seems to be talking right wing talking head regurgitate when it comes to this issue.

[love1234]

I would not be surprised to see a violent revolution in this country in the next few years. With the internet many people know about the mass murdering banker, gangsters and their bought and paid for politicians.

The elites are also setting up race wars here. Blacks against whites and everyone against the Mexicans and Jews:-)

This is what the elites do to get the heat off them. If the people are fighting each other they are to busy to go after the elites. I bet this had over million hits first week. I saw them stop counting and then cut the numbers. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMjm4LxFa1c&feature=email&email=comment_reply_received

Most the protesters are clueless around here. End Usury world wide and we could have peace on earth.
It may not be long till the people get their pitch forks out and go after the blood-sucking elites.

[love1234]

Actually the American revolution was meant to break from England's tyranical Federal Reserve banking system, thus all the different currencies floating around the U.S. for ages. Then some smart men diecovered the Benefits of Frderal Reserve banking. By executive order of President Woodrow Wilson, a PRIVATELY OWNED federal reserve system was established. Thus, the global elite get richer.
The mass murdering banker, gangster criminals are in charge and they have been running wild for over a hundren years here. Millions dead all over the world for Wall Street profits.

Rothschild-owned Central Banks in ALL BUT THREE countries in 2011

http://mikephilbin.blogspot.com/2011/11/rothschild-owned-central-banks-in-all.html

[love1234]

The problem with the differences in the protests in the Middle East and the protests in the Western World is a matter of causes. In the Middle East they were protesting against dictators with a history of human rights violations and it was a bloody clash but they got their freedom.

The Occupy movement started off in a good fashion, peaceful and protesting bailouts of big banks.

When it gets to the point it starts affecting the lives of ordinary people who are living paycheck to paycheck and not doing a thing to the "banks" it needs to stop.

There was recently a huge movement for people to sign up for Credit Unions and "Ditch the Bank" here in America. Many people took advantage of this even though they left banks that had served them well for years just to support the protestors about the big bank buyouts.

Now we have people who are not getting paid, not being able to go to work, not able to do their jobs in a timely fashion if they can go to work because of protestors who just jumped on the bandwagon. Keefer said it pretty well as well. It's a fad and I hope it goes out of fashion soon before the economy of the West totally crashes and takes the rest of the world down with us.

The u.s. is a out of control police state ruled by criminals and their criminal corporations.

Demon-crazy gives the people a choice between two criminal blood-suckers but even then they put in the criminal they want in. Bush never won one of the presidential elections.

If someone that will stand up to the gangsters gets in they kill them. That is American history.

Egypt got a military government and when that is replaced it will be with the same criminal system we have here and elites will put in the leader of their choice and they will call it democracy and the will of the people:-)

End Usury world wide, arrest the mass murdering banker, gangster war criminals all over this earth. Then we will have peace on earth world wide.

[Hephaestion]

Yes, whenever you gather a mindless mob together resistance to reasonable behavior/requests tends to take place. In those clashes there will be casualties, one of which could be our civil rights by virtue of backlash.
Mindless and violent resistance could itself lead to a degradation of the right to assemble. The occupy idiots should think seriously about that.

Does this mean that one should not protest about anything in case the right to protest about anything is withdrawn?

"Catch 22" comes to mind.

.

[void()]

What it's about ---



D (http://tinyurl.com/dxtwneh)irty jobs are available; Americans won’t fill them; thus, Americans
are too soft for dirty jobs. Why else would so many unemployed people
turn down the opportunity to work during a recession? Of course,
there’s an equally compelling obverse. Why should farmers and plant
owners expect people to take a back-breaking seasonal job with low
pay and no benefits just because they happen to be offering it? If no
one wants an available job—especially in extreme times—maybe the fault
doesn’t rest entirely with the people turning it down. Maybe the market
is inefficient.


A (http://tinyurl.com/7mqa2tx) virtual hiring freeze has been in place since 2009 in most subject areas, arts included, and spending on art supplies in elementary schools crashed by 73 percent between 2006 and 2009. So even though Joe’s old principal was excited to have him back, she just couldn’t afford to hire a new full-time teacher. Instead, he’s working at his old school as a full-time “substitute”; he writes his own curriculum, holds regular classes and does everything a normal teacher does. “But sub pay is about 50 percent of a full-time salaried position,” he says, “so I’m working for half as much as I did four years ago, before grad school, and I don’t have health insurance…. It’s the best-paying job I could find.”


T (http://tinyurl.com/d42quba)here are roughly 280,000 children working on cocoa farms in west Africa, with about 200,000 of those working in The Ivory Coast. A substantial number of those children have been trafficked from other African countries. The work these children perform is categorized as “dangerous” and they are forced to work long hours while being denied an education. The cocoa industry became aware of this issue about 10 years ago and even ratified an agreement in 2001 promising to end the worst forms of child labor by 2005. They did not deliver on this promise, and were given an extension to follow through in 50% of the cocoa regions by 2008. Instead they altered the wording of the agreement to say they simply had to REPORT the problem…not actually do anything about it.


O (http://tinyurl.com/cra6hk4)ne in six women in Sierra Leone will die in childbirth, and one in four children will not reach the age of five. Wata, like more than half the women her age, cannot read and has never been to school…

When the cocoa crop was ready in January the buyers would reclaim the debt, asking payment of one sack of cocoa beans for one of rice: grotesquely unfair. But the villagers, without communications or education, unaware of the real price of cocoa, were in no position to argue. “And they had to feed their children,” says Ibrahim.

P (http://tinyurl.com/7j8o46s)ig farming.


S (http://tinyurl.com/7baplyl)ir Percy Cox was the British High Commissioner in Baghdad after World War I who in 1922 drew the lines in the sand establishing for the first time national borders between Jordan, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. And in each of these new states the British helped set up and consolidate ruling monarchies through which British banks, commercial firms, and petroleum companies could obtain monopolies. Kuwait, however, had for centuries belonged to the Basra province of the Ottoman Empire.


I (http://tinyurl.com/gqxx) helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.



"T (http://tinyurl.com/cvn26e8)his shit has got to go."

I could keep posting links to documentation, media about being given the raw end of the great American Dream all day and all night. There are lots of facts, lots even verifiable and of record. If one cannot see oneself being screwed, just face forward over the barrel and continue taking it. Some of us are tired of the butter used as lube, of course there are times we get no lube. We've bore it out enough and are tired being the wet ponies left in dank stables.

We're tired of being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed shit. We all hear the excuses, "national security", "to protect our way of life", "bringing freedom and democracy to people" (Nobody bothers asking if these people want it?), and so on the facade song proceeds. The real song behind it is "the rich get richer, poor get poorer", "meet the new boss, same as the old boss", "open a prison, close ten schools".

To borrow from someone I respect, "this shit has got to go", indeed.

I may not have all the answers, the right ones. I do know right from wrong and a gray in between. The shit I see in some of those links above, is no where near gray or right. So yeah, "oh the humanity!" We made it, can unmake it. We want to come together, let everyone talk, get all the ideas (cards) on the table (public). We can then figure out what is worth holding. One thing for sure, we ditch the crooked dealing house. It's our house not the dealer's.

We don't want pity. We know we had a hand in this. Great, state the obvious. Does that solve anything? No. Come join the conversation, give us ideas for solutions, or step aside. Tearing others down to better yourself is the wrong use of love. We have to use love as a whole family for we are a whole family. Use love to lift others up, to rebuild war devastated schools, hospitals, libraries, homes.

What harm comes in everyone being safe, healthy, happy, loved and at peace? Some imply such lacks ambition or would cause ambition to wane. Sorry, that's an invalid argument. We see work which needs doing, will do it, but pay us better. Give us benefits. It's ours at any given or ought to be by birthright.

Bah ... screw this, too much politics crap for me too early of a morning. Too much any time. Get rid of money, it's a failed idea. Rebuild with better ideas. Simple enough.

[Long Duck Dong]

Man-killed-near-Occupy-Oakland-protest (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/5953240/Man-killed-near-Occupy-Oakland-protest)

regardless of why the guy was shot or who by..... they were all lucky that more people were not killed.......

it is interesting to notice how fast the protestors are quick to distance themselves from any involvement with the shooting, by either the shooter or the victim, and the excuses they use.....

towards the end of the article tho I noticed the usual type of talk... the council wants to get in to fix issues and protestors are claiming that the issues are a move to drive them out......

if the council wanted them out, they would not be trying to fix the issues and being stopped......

while they are both minor things, they both bear the hallmarks of protestor thinking " we did nothing wrong, it was everybody issues fault "

[jamieknyc]

Some points on these issues:

OWS works on the principle of 'horizontal democracy' and does not believe in any political ideology run by 'verticals' (top-down leadership). That specifically includes Marxist socialism, which is a very top-down ideology. Socialist Workers Party types have tried to piggyback on the movement, but they represent the type of old-school radicalsim that the OWS movement has made obsolete. OWS protestors have no use for Marxism, and advocate capitalism under the proper restraint of law. Their hero is Franklin Delano Roosevelt, not Marx or Lenin.

The proper function of government is to exercise the police power, meaning to pass and enforce laws to prevent conduct that is harmful to others. In the past fifteen years, government has utterly failed to perform its police-power function in the economy. No one seriously disputes that.

At the same time, Wall Street does not exist in a vacuum. Its fluctuations are by definition derivate (both in mathematial and economic terms, if there is a difference between the two). The function of Wall Street is to finance other economic activity. Whatever happenes int he financial markets is dependent on outside economic trends rather than on what the financial industry does. The financial industry does have a function to perform. So long people in western countries are not willing to live like people do in some other cultures, where if you want to buy a home or go to college, you woork and save until you can buy it for cash, the financial industry is going to be part of everyone's daily life.

No one in OWS proposed to do away with capitalism, except a handful of people with utopian ideologies. OWS recognizes that capitalism is here to stay, but wants it put under proper and lawful restraints.

[jamieknyc]

Man-killed-near-Occupy-Oakland-protest (http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/5953240/Man-killed-near-Occupy-Oakland-protest)

regardless of why the guy was shot or who by..... they were all lucky that more people were not killed.......

it is interesting to notice how fast the protestors are quick to distance themselves from any involvement with the shooting, by either the shooter or the victim, and the excuses they use.....

towards the end of the article tho I noticed the usual type of talk... the council wants to get in to fix issues and protestors are claiming that the issues are a move to drive them out......

if the council wanted them out, they would not be trying to fix the issues and being stopped......

while they are both minor things, they both bear the hallmarks of protestor thinking " we did nothing wrong, it was everybody issues fault "
The Oakland Police Department agrees with the 'excuses.' They made an announcement to the press that the shooting was unrelated to Occupy Oakland.

[ivanthemonkey]

In your opinion, should there be limits to peaceful assembly?

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.

Public land is the constitutional and god given property of the public and no group should be able to unlawfully block access or use of that land from other members of the public. These occupiers are often taking that right away from ordinary citizens, and are acting in contrary to the public's right to assembly.

This is especially so in Democratic countires like Canada. These People can Vote and change this country, if they were to get off their ass and actually work to make change rather then rally uselessly.

They do not represent 99%, because they didn't get 99% of the vote in order to claim any such nonsense, however we do have leaders who gained a majority of the votes and do in fact represent the population.

And if we think they don't then we can easily and simply just vote them out of office.

Don't think so? Well the Occupy Vancouver group in BC claim to represent 99% of the people, yet I don't recall voting for any hippy. And what are they protesting for, the people in BC, the real 99%, have just proved earlier this year that the democratic system works when the province made an unpopular tax law the real 99% filed a petition, gathering signatures and forcing the tax law to go to a referendum and then voting it out, all done by ordinary citizens, the 99% masses.

So who do the Occupy protesters represent? An abnoxious minority who are breaking the laws and wasting taxpayers money, with girls dying of drug overdoses in the occupy vancouver encampment and blocking a public venue from being used by the real 99%, familys and ordinary people.

If they realy represented the 99%, then why don't they run in the municiple ellections going on across the province? or the upcoming Provential ellections?

I will tell you why,

BECAUSE THE REAL 99% WON'T VOTE FOR DIRTY HIPPIES!

[jamieknyc]

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.

Public land is the constitutional and god given property of the public and no group should be able to unlawfully block access or use of that land from other members of the public. These occupiers are often taking that right away from ordinary citizens, and are acting in contrary to the public's right to assembly.

This is especially so in Democratic countires like Canada. These People can Vote and change this country, if they were to get off their ass and actually work to make change rather then rally uselessly.

They do not represent 99%, because they didn't get 99% of the vote in order to claim any such nonsense, however we do have leaders who gained a majority of the votes and do in fact represent the population.

And if we think they don't then we can easily and simply just vote them out of office.

Don't think so? Well the Occupy Vancouver group in BC claim to represent 99% of the people, yet I don't recall voting for any hippy. And what are they protesting for, the people in BC, the real 99%, have just proved earlier this year that the democratic system works when the province made an unpopular tax law the real 99% filed a petition, gathering signatures and forcing the tax law to go to a referendum and then voting it out, all done by ordinary citizens, the 99% masses.

So who do the Occupy protesters represent? An abnoxious minority who are breaking the laws and wasting taxpayers money, with girls dying of drug overdoses in the occupy vancouver encampment and blocking a public venue from being used by the real 99%, familys and ordinary people.

If they realy represented the 99%, then why don't they run in the municiple ellections going on across the province? or the upcoming Provential ellections?

I will tell you why,

BECAUSE THE REAL 99% WON'T VOTE FOR DIRTY HIPPIES!

OWS protestors are neither dirty nor hippies. Do I look like a hippie?

You can be forgiven for not understanding American First Amendment law, being Canadian. In the United States, the state cannot stop people from protesting on public property, but can only impose limits on the time, place and manner that are reasonable and do not interfere with the protestors' exercis of their First Amendment right to protest. In New York in particular, the protest is being held on private property, and as long as the owner doesn't interfere, the City has no legal right to stop them.

[tenni]

Thanks for the perspectives. My own perspective is that the protestors have been peaceful. The accusations of a bad group infiltrating the occupy groups may be true but complaints so far have been about drug addicts or street people. I understand that in at least Toronto a liberal political leader (Bob Rae) walked around the Occupy territory talking to the people there. He stated that he found them to be middle class and without work. There are recent uni grads working at mcjobs because they can not get anything else. I'd assume that they don't even have those mcjobs if they are at the Occupy location.

Arguments about Christmas coming, other activities being planned for the public space have some validity. I don't specifically see the Occupy movement as equivalent to the Tea Party in the sense that the Tea Party was a very geographical specific event(s) ie the USA while the Occupy movement has a bit more universal application as complaints about a global banking financial over manipulation.

Thanks to Volie for posting #55 David Suziki thoughts. I think that we (humans) need to understand that corporations seem to have created a mandate that their purpose is to make money at the expense of all other matters. Those posters who seem to be so angry and bent on blaming the Occupiers or trying to place guilt on them also seem to ignore that it is Corporations who have got the world...NOT JUST THE USA, into quite a mess. It is governments who have argued about globalization that makes all of our lives so precarious today. We have all been linked by our governments and the accusation is that it is corportions who have encouraged or demanded this linking to make their purpose of making money the prime reason for human existence.

Excellent points Jamie in post 62. Thank you.

To Ivanmonkey (post 64). You do make some very good points. What I have been puzzled by is the low turn outs at elections in comparison to a "give up" attitude as far as voting.

People do seem to feel disenfranchised in many democratic countries. (those who vote in their governments with multi party options to select from)

I know that I do to some extent. I live in a Conservative voting riding. Is there a point for me to vote for anyone but who usually wins? I believe so. I vote sometimes by principle and at others by strategy. (voted NDP last time just because I saw the trending and wanted my voice to be with them..no way could the NDP win where I live). I am also puzzled if not angry by how such groups like the Conservatives can spend money long before the election destroying the opposition leaders. That money is coming from somewhere and I doubt that it is from the average citizen. I am angered that the Conservative(neo cons whatever) have found ways to circumvent our laws about elections to manipulate funds and move them around. They lie to the people skillfully and dumb ass citizens vote for them. It seems to be all about money and control.

Corporations are controlling many aspects of not only governments but manipulating citizens to vote for a party that gives the corporations more control Is this democracy? I'm not sure. (please US posters don't off on your tangent about your country being a republic and not a democracy...that is a mute point..this is a global phenomena about a global issue)

[æonpax]

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.<snip>

"Dirty Hippies?" :yikes2: Living in the past, aren't we?

[jamieknyc]

Corporations don't really have as much political power as people believe they do, but that isn't the point. OWS is opposed to corportae money being contributed to politicians who rule on matters affecting their corporate interests. OWS considers that bribery. One of the reforms advocated by OWS is that lobbyists should be barred from giving contriubtions or anything of monetary value to politicians.

[tenni]

Jamie
Ok..good point. Bribery may be one of the issues but globally is there not more going on?

Is not the various methods being used with less subtle bribery and manipulations for the benefit of corporations not connected to the concept of bribery?

..if it is for the benefit of corporations rather than in some way all humans rather than this non human person? (oh such a run on sentence there..hope I got a jist of my thought out)

[darkeyes]

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.

Public land is the constitutional and god given property of the public and no group should be able to unlawfully block access or use of that land from other members of the public. These occupiers are often taking that right away from ordinary citizens, and are acting in contrary to the public's right to assembly.

This is especially so in Democratic countires like Canada. These People can Vote and change this country, if they were to get off their ass and actually work to make change rather then rally uselessly.

They do not represent 99%, because they didn't get 99% of the vote in order to claim any such nonsense, however we do have leaders who gained a majority of the votes and do in fact represent the population.

And if we think they don't then we can easily and simply just vote them out of office.

Don't think so? Well the Occupy Vancouver group in BC claim to represent 99% of the people, yet I don't recall voting for any hippy. And what are they protesting for, the people in BC, the real 99%, have just proved earlier this year that the democratic system works when the province made an unpopular tax law the real 99% filed a petition, gathering signatures and forcing the tax law to go to a referendum and then voting it out, all done by ordinary citizens, the 99% masses.

So who do the Occupy protesters represent? An abnoxious minority who are breaking the laws and wasting taxpayers money, with girls dying of drug overdoses in the occupy vancouver encampment and blocking a public venue from being used by the real 99%, familys and ordinary people.

If they realy represented the 99%, then why don't they run in the municiple ellections going on across the province? or the upcoming Provential ellections?

I will tell you why,

BECAUSE THE REAL 99% WON'T VOTE FOR DIRTY HIPPIES!

The right to protest and demonstrate is a democratic right of any free people. Sometimes that protest will infringe on the rights of others in a temporary way... that is an an unavoidable truth.. parliamentary or representative democracy itself can and does infringe on the rights of many people, both legally and unfortunately illegally. At such times and others, people need to act in some way to prevent an injustice or further a cause.. to wait until the next election 4 or 5 years hence is hardly an option and even hoping for or awaiting a referndum can be itself a ploy to deprive people of their rights..

The ballot box as I have already said is not the whole answer in a democratic society. Occasionally to combat government or local government or even employers, people have to act in what seems on the face of it an affront to democracy, whereas the reality is, such action is not an affront but a necessary aid to a free people to continue with a democratic sytem..

..on the last day of this month, St Andrews Day, I and hundreds of thousands of teachers throughout the UK will be on strike and participating in demonstrations throughout the land in defence of our future and our pension arrangements.. schools will be closed and parents will require to make alternative arrangements for their children. For many this will cause difficulty and even hardship. In a sense we shall infringe their right to work. We shall infringe on the rights of children to be educated for that day, and should the action becone a full blown longer term stike at some stage, this too will infringe on rights of many people and cause them difficulties, and infringe on the right of education for millions of schoolchildren. In a democratic society, the right to strike is one form of protest, and as with other forms will create problems for people not directly involved. Businesses may well have difficulty doing business as parents are unable to attend work, orders may be lost and hardship created for many. It is a sad fact that in defence of one persons rights, those of another may well be infringed... but in a healthy democracy, that is how it has to be..

Protest by definition will always infringe on rights of others.. in a free society we cannot stop protest or make it illegal, for then we create an unfree society.

In the western world, demonstration and protest have an honourable history in defence of the rights and living standards of ordinary people. Without demonstration and protest we become a little less free as a people, and our countries considerably less democratic... demonstration and protest are a check on the balance sheet of democracy, a check on a nations executive, its parliament and its burocracy, and any other institution which feels it can do what it likes with the lives of its people.. without it we begin to move into the realm of tyranny..

[darkeyes]

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.

Public land is the constitutional and god given property of the public and no group should be able to unlawfully block access or use of that land from other members of the public. These occupiers are often taking that right away from ordinary citizens, and are acting in contrary to the public's right to assembly.

This is especially so in Democratic countires like Canada. These People can Vote and change this country, if they were to get off their ass and actually work to make change rather then rally uselessly.

They do not represent 99%, because they didn't get 99% of the vote in order to claim any such nonsense, however we do have leaders who gained a majority of the votes and do in fact represent the population.

And if we think they don't then we can easily and simply just vote them out of office.

Don't think so? Well the Occupy Vancouver group in BC claim to represent 99% of the people, yet I don't recall voting for any hippy. And what are they protesting for, the people in BC, the real 99%, have just proved earlier this year that the democratic system works when the province made an unpopular tax law the real 99% filed a petition, gathering signatures and forcing the tax law to go to a referendum and then voting it out, all done by ordinary citizens, the 99% masses.

So who do the Occupy protesters represent? An abnoxious minority who are breaking the laws and wasting taxpayers money, with girls dying of drug overdoses in the occupy vancouver encampment and blocking a public venue from being used by the real 99%, familys and ordinary people.

If they realy represented the 99%, then why don't they run in the municiple ellections going on across the province? or the upcoming Provential ellections?

I will tell you why,

BECAUSE THE REAL 99% WON'T VOTE FOR DIRTY HIPPIES!

The right to protest and demonstrate is a democratic right of any free people. Sometimes that protest will infringe on the rights of others in a temporary way... that is an an unavoidable truth.. parliamentary or representative democracy itself can and does infringe on the rights of many people, both legally and unfortunately illegally. At such times and others, people need to act in some way to prevent an injustice or further a cause.. to wait until the next election 4 or 5 years hence is hardly an option and even hoping for or awaiting a referndum can be itself a ploy to deprive people of their rights..

The ballot box as I have already said is not the whole answer in a democratic society. Occasionally to combat government or local government or even employers, people have to act in what seems on the face of it an aaffront to democracy, whereas the reality is, such action is not an affront but a necessary aid to a free people to continue with a democratic sytem..

..on the last day of this month, St Andrews Day, I and hundreds of thousands of teachers throughout the UK will be on strike and participating in demonstrations throughout the land in defence of their future and their pension arrangements.. schools will be closed and parents will require to make alternative arrangements for their children. For many this will cause difficulty and even hardship. In a sense we shall infringe their right to work. We shall infringe on the rights of children to be educated for that day, and should the action becone a full blown longer term stike at some stage, this too will infringe on rights of many people and cause them difficulties, and infringe on the right of education for millions of schoolchildren. In a democratic society, the right to strike is one form of protest, and as with other forms will create problems for people not directly involved. Businesses may well have difficulty doing business as parents are unable to attend work, orders may be lost and hardship created for many. It is a sad fact that in defence of one persons rights, those of another may well be infringed... but in a healthy democracy, that is how it has to be..

Protest by definition will always infringe on rights of others.. in a free society we cannot stop protest or make it illegal, for then we create an unfree society.

In the western world, demonstration and protest have an honourable history in defence of the rights and living standards of ordinary people. Without demonstration and protest we become a little less free as a people, and our countries considerably less democratic... demonstration and protest are a check on the balance sheet of democracy, a check on a nations executive, its parliament and its burocracy, and any other institution which feels it can do what it likes with the lives of its people.. without it we begin to move into the realm of tyranny..

..and while I remember, where do u dredge up "dirty hippies" from? My dad was a hippy in his time and my mum, but really... we are in the second decade of the 21st century not the the 6th of the last... sticks and stones...

[fpb09]

I'm sorry , Peacefully Assembly should always be encouraged! BUT WHAT THERE DOING IS NOT THIS ! They have become messed up stores & companies in to say there thoughts, unions r better, govt. can do better or green movement!BUT in the end there all socialist & I'm sorry but IT HAS NEVER WORKED & NEVER WILL WORK!

[jamieknyc]

I'm sorry , Peacefully Assembly should always be encouraged! BUT WHAT THERE DOING IS NOT THIS ! They have become messed up stores & companies in to say there thoughts, unions r better, govt. can do better or green movement!BUT in the end there all socialist & I'm sorry but IT HAS NEVER WORKED & NEVER WILL WORK!

This is from someone who can't write four lines of grammatical English.

[mikey3000]

This is from someone who can't write four lines of grammatical English.
Are you saying that illiterate people, or people for whom english is not their first language, are not entitled to voice their opinions? :eek:

[keefer201]

Are you saying that illiterate people, or people for whom english is not their first language, are not entitled to voice their opinions? :eek:

What Jamie is saying, Mikey; is that anyone who doesn't tow his pointy headed liberal line, then by all means, shut the fuck up.:eek:

[æonpax]

Just an off-topic thought but where I come from, spelling and grammar nazism is the first refuge of the incompetent. I allow for typos, sticky keys and distractions. If I cannot understand what a person writes, I'll ask.

[darkeyes]

What Jamie is saying, Mikey; is that anyone who doesn't tow his pointy headed liberal line, then by all means, shut the fuck up.:eek:

No. That isn't what he said... Jamie and I have crossed swords on more occasions than you've had hot dinners, and can assure you he didn't say that in the least... ;) Nor for that matter is he saying what Mikey seems to think...

[12voltman59]

You can't blame all the capitalists. After all, greed is the central theme in the American culture. What all the CEO's and corporate big wigs are doing is just what the average Joe on the street is doing too. "Joe" shops at Walmart cause they can save the most $$. The more you save the more you have, right? Well, outsourcing to India or China is the global Walmart. If you really want to stop corporate greed, loosten YOUR purse strings and support your local business (if there are any left). Don't be a hypocrite. There are so many smart ways to protest. I suggest finding one that will actually accomplish something.

Whenever and wherever possible--I do try to make my purchases from local store owners and also to that end--I have begun to grow as many of my own veggies and such as I can---I expand my garden each year and am going to do a major expansion next year. I have connected with a number of local people who are doing things like raising free range chickens and supply fresh eggs and roasters, grass fed beef and bison, people making fresh cheese and butter from fresh milk--things of that nature--I have begun to bake most of my own bread and am going to make my own cheeses and butter from fresh local sourced milk. I am doing this all because I think it is healthier and it helps to redevelop a local chain of those of us doing as much for ourselves as we can. What I cannot get from people like this----I have found a series of those who have local shops like green grocers and butchers where I get other things---only going to the big stores like Kroger for a relatively few items. About the only mega-retailer I still buy items from is Sam's and Costco for large stockpile quantities of things like toilet paper and paper towels and some of the other items they do offer I cannot otherwise find from local sources.

I have even started making my own beer and hard cider--- with the cider sourced from some great local fruit farms.

My beer making is a bit rough yet--and for now I am working on it so I will continue to buy that from the store until I get my brewing skils to where I want them---we are just getting Yuengling Beer here so I am happy about that and I have pretty much decided----my favorite brewer of any size is Shiner Beer out of Texas---just about everyone of their beers is good stuff---they are the target I am shooting for in my beers.

In my own little way--I already have pulled back from supporting the big companies with my money--about my worst "offense" in that regard---I still need to fill up the car and for the most part----Royal Dutch Shell gets my money since I have had a credit card with them for over 20 years now----I don't know if I am ready to try to run my vehicle off of one of those wood fired things--or go to a diesel powered car or truck and burn veggie oil or biodiesel in it--even though I know people who are in business converting diesels to run on those fuels and they are providing them. My other big user of fuel is that I do love to boat and they are surely wasteful of gas that runs them--but that is one thing I don't want to give up is being able to head out on the water for as long as it is still relatively affordable to do so. I do sadly expect that in a few years---I will even give them up and be satisfied to look at the water from the shore--only going out in maybe a small outboard powered boat, a kayak or a sailboat.

In a few years though--I plan to make a move out into the countryside finding a nice piece of property that I can really grow lots of veggies, maybe have some fruit trees, raise some grapevines, set up coops for chickens and other foul, maybe raise a few goats, llamas or alpacas and maybe even a bison or two and try to be as self-sufficient as possible---providing excess veggies to my own retail outlets with one being on the property, and then selling at farmers markets, selling to an ever growing number of "localvore" chefs and giving some produce to local foodbanks and soup kitchens.

When it does come to gardening----even if you live in a place without much outdoor space---in containers and such---you can grow enough things like tomatoes, herbs, onions, and other things to supply at least the partial needs of your family--and I urge you do consider doing so if you are at all inclined to do so---it will save you some money at the market on those items when in season or if you grew enough to preserve in some fashion for year round use. It is better for your health because the non-organic produce you get at the big markets---it does contain loads of residual herbicides and pesticides in them and with the monoculture practices of big agriculture-----with nearly each passing year----the nutritional value of most store bought produce reduces significantly to the point that if it is already not hardly worth eating--in not too many more years it won't be--plus---the stuff you grow tastes a whole heck of a lot better than most of what ya get from the big stores.

[**Peg**]

: **Peg** thumbs through the postings in this thread and, borrowing a friend's schtick, quietly writes down names of people hurling insults and/or posturing for position and adds them to her permanent ignore list.

:bigrin:

[void()]

: **Peg** thumbs through the postings in this thread and, borrowing a friend's schtick, quietly writes down names of people hurling insults and/or posturing for position and adds them to her permanent ignore list.

:bigrin:

void sees Peg thumbing and ignoring, thumbs a ride into Kathmandu and ignores the world.

[pepperjack]

The Occupy movement that had sprung up in many cities in North America is reaching a point where questions and actions are beginning.

In a city called London, ON, Canada last night the police moved in and removed the occupiers from a public space. In Vancouver, a woman died in the encampment due to a drug overdose on the weekend. Some claim that troublemakers and drug addicts have moved into the Occupy camps. In Vancouver and Toronto as well as I believe one US city mayors are beginning to remove the protestors as peacefully as they can. Protestors must remove their tents in Vancouver, BC by 2 pm Thursday, Vancouver time zone(Pacific Time Zone).

Meanwhile, the west supports occupy protests in the Ukraine( a few years ago), Egypt, Syria etc. without being critical.

This year's protests started in the middle east and governments toppled by populism. In the West, some state that there is no end game to the protests and unclear basis for the protests.

Will this morph into a significant social movement or faze out?

How are the protests in North America connected to those in Greece and Italy?...the middle east?


In your opinion, should there be limits to peaceful assembly?

Currently reading Ann Coulter's DEMONIC about mob mentality & sitting back ,watching demonstrations worldwide, pondering, making connections, observations. She's right on!

[æonpax]

I'm sorry , Peacefully Assembly should always be encouraged! BUT WHAT THERE DOING IS NOT THIS ! They have become messed up stores & companies in to say there thoughts, unions r better, govt. can do better or green movement!BUT in the end there all socialist & I'm sorry but IT HAS NEVER WORKED & NEVER WILL WORK!


History disagrees with you. In the 60's and early 70's, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement went from peaceful, to violent, partly due to the rights heavy-handed use of police. But this actually swung the tide of American sentiment and civil rights laws were enacted and the useless, Vietnam war. was ended.

[æonpax]

Currently reading Ann Coulter's DEMONIC about mob mentality & sitting back ,watching demonstrations worldwide, pondering, making connections, observations. She's right on!

Before the rise of the wacked out loons from the right, like Palin and Bachmann, Anne Coulter ruled the roost for the most off the wall, irrelevant and out of context comments. Even moderate Republicans cringed when she spoke.


http://i.imgur.com/UT345.jpg

[Long Duck Dong]

History disagrees with you. In the 60's and early 70's, the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement went from peaceful, to violent, partly due to the rights heavy-handed use of police. But this actually swung the tide of American sentiment and civil rights laws were enacted and the useless, Vietnam war. was ended.


the war never ended in nam til 1975, a couple of years after the case church amendment bill was passed that stopped us military involvement as of august 73
however the us continued to provide support to the south vietnamese

so, your statement is incorrect, it never stopped the vietnam war, it left people high and dry in a fight against a communist regime that was trying to take over.... and the war continued without more us troops being sent.....
or so the general public were told.....

as most nam vets know, there were a large number of us troops that were unaccounted for in vet and a strong possibility they were still alive and POWs.... the protests in a sense, assisted in making sure they never came home, cos their buddies could not go over there and get them back....

the so called brutal treatment by the police, was nothing compared to the hell that the nam vets went thru and often still do, cos of the opinions and mindset of *pacifists and peaceful protestors *....

I know that protestors will always claim the police are brutal and strong handed and that the protestors do no wrong.... but that is common amongst protestors, cos in their minds, their actions are always justified and any action against them, justified or not, is always excessive and brutal

[Long Duck Dong]

The Oakland Police Department agrees with the 'excuses.' They made an announcement to the press that the shooting was unrelated to Occupy Oakland.

One of the men being sought in connection with Thursday's shooting death near Frank Ogawa Plaza was a frequent resident of the camp, Oakland police said in a newly issued news release. Occupiers have said the shooting was unrelated to the camp. Here's the full text of the OPD release:
"On Nov. 10, 2011, at 4:57 p.m., the Oakland Police Department responded to the 1400 block of Broadway on a report of a shooting. When officers arrived on scene, they located a male adult African American victim believed to be in his 20s, who was suffering from a gunshot wound. The victim was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead.
Oakland Police Department Major Crimes Section Investigators were called to the scene. The identity of the victim is being withheld pending the notification of next of kin.
Oakland Police Department Major Crimes Section investigators report that witnesses state the suspect was a frequent resident at the Frank Ogawa Plaza for the past several days. He is described as a male African-American, 20-25 years old, 5'9," 150 lbs, with short hair. He was wearing a white T-shirt. A second suspect is described as a male African American, in his 20s to 30s, 5'9" to 5'11," 250 lbs, long dreadlocks with red tips, possibly with a tattoo on the back of his neck. He was wearing a black hooded sweatshirt.

the official police report is saying different

[Hephaestion]

With great respect LDD, the war in VietNam did not stop because of peaceful objection or a bad attack of remorse by politicians. It followed protests involving physical injury all round and the incipient threat of making the countries where these things took place ungovernable. One of the things that swayed people to protest and put their own lives on the line was the damage caused to service men forced to fight in a war without just cause.

[Long Duck Dong]

hep, I was refering to the fact that the nam war ended when the viet cong took saigon..... that had nothing to do with protests in the us or what politicians did or did not do.....

its aeonpax that made the statement that protests were part of the reason that the nam war ended..... which is incorrect as the viet cong did not give a rats ass about protestors in the us or their opinions.

the protests may have assisted in some respects to ending the majority of the us involvement in the nam war, but they did not end the war, as is being claimed.

some people believe that war has no justifiable reasoning, and that any war is wrong.....as was the case of some of the anti nam protestors..... personally myself, I have the opinion that its always easier to say that war is wrong, when its not your country being invaded and thats supported by the fact that there was not really any anti war protests during WW2 in britain, france, poland and other countries that were getting invaded.......

there are anti war protestors in NZ that wanted to stand up and protest on anzac day in NZ, cos in their eyes, anzac day is a day that glorifies war..... anzac day is actually a day for NZ to say thank you to all the people that have served and a day for the vets to honour their fallen comrades...... its not about glorifying war, its about hoping to hell, that NZ and the rest of the world, never have to go thru that again.....

there is a time to fight for what you believe in, and then there is a time to fight for what we all believe in, and that is freedom.... its just sometimes that we have to go to war to protect that right for ourselves and others....and there is a great many people that have never had to fight to protect their freedoms, against a invading country, but are quick to judge those whom work to protect the rights of freedom for those in other countries

[darkeyes]

One of the men being sought in connection with Thursday's shooting death near Frank Ogawa Plaza was a frequent resident of the camp, Oakland police said in a newly issued news release. Occupiers have said the shooting was unrelated to the camp. Here's the full text of the OPD release:
"On Nov. 10, 2011, at 4:57 p.m., the Oakland Police Department responded to the 1400 block of Broadway on a report of a shooting. When officers arrived on scene, they located a male adult African American victim believed to be in his 20s, who was suffering from a gunshot wound. The victim was transported to a local hospital where he was pronounced dead.
Oakland Police Department Major Crimes Section Investigators were called to the scene. The identity of the victim is being withheld pending the notification of next of kin.
Oakland Police Department Major Crimes Section investigators report that witnesses state the suspect was a frequent resident at the Frank Ogawa Plaza for the past several days. He is described as a male African-American, 20-25 years old, 5'9," 150 lbs, with short hair. He was wearing a white T-shirt. A second suspect is described as a male African American, in his 20s to 30s, 5'9" to 5'11," 250 lbs, long dreadlocks with red tips, possibly with a tattoo on the back of his neck. He was wearing a black hooded sweatshirt.

the official police report is saying different

World wide there are hundreds of Occupy protests.. they are for the most part.. overwhelmingly good natured and peaceful.. even in the most peaceful surroundings, violence can flare and tragedy occur.. the constant sniping by some who try to make out that these protests are violent, mindless and even subversive serves only to create the likelihood of more violence and gives a false impression of the reality.

..of course where violence occurs, those of us who are active in or support the protests cannot be allowed to brush it under the carpet, and nor would we wish to do so.. but on the outside, there are those who just want violence to kick off.. they sit and wait for the slightest glimmer of an incident to justify their sniping and incident such as in Oakland, or the rape in Glasgow are like shite to a fly.....

Where people live or work cheek by jowl, or even just gather together in often the most miserable conditions there will be tensions.. mostly tensions are diffused but occasionally there will be incidents of a violent nature.. it happens in school playgrounds, inside schools themselves, in work premises, in busy shopping malls, in public parks... every walk of life you care to mention; hotels, pubs, clubs, football grounds, and even Duckie in the private homes of millions of us every year.. even very occasionally on the floor of the parliaments of nations...Australia comes to mind here some years ago, Italy, South Africa and in committee rooms of my own, and once a long time ago, a Prime Minister of this country by the name of Spencer Perceval was shot and killed on the floor of the Commons....

Of course we should condemn violence wherever it is found.. and we should do all we can to ensure it does not occur.. people in the occupy camps have a responsibility to do this and both demonstrators and the authorities a responsibility not to stoke the tensions or create incidents which may result in much too powerful tension and suspicion which makes violence an inevitability.. but for now, overwhelmingly the Occupy camps around the world are peaceful places to be and whether we like or loathe what they do or stand against or for, we should be glad of it..

[Leo james]

I do not like $500,000 + of my HARD EARNED Tax $$$ having to be spent to clean up after the OWS protesters. I do respect their right to protest. maybe if they paid to clean up- i would accept more.

After getting college loans and years of stuying- they want me to pay for their loans?? NO WAY!! I paid off all my loans and never complained.

By the way- those they are protesting against- the ones with money? Who of us works for anyone who has No $$$ ??? Just a thought.

[Long Duck Dong]

World wide there are hundreds of Occupy protests.. they are for the most part.. overwhelmingly good natured and peaceful.. even in the most peaceful surroundings, violence can flare and tragedy occur.. the constant sniping by some who try to make out that these protests are violent, mindless and even subversive serves only to create the likelihood of more violence and gives a false impression of the reality.

..of course where violence occurs, those of us who are active in or support the protests cannot be allowed to brush it under the carpet, and nor would we wish to do so.. but on the outside, there are those who just want violence to kick off.. they sit and wait for the slightest glimmer of an incident to justify their sniping and incident such as in Oakland, or the rape in Glasgow are like shite to a fly.....

Where people live or work cheek by jowl, or even just gather together in often the most miserable conditions there will be tensions.. mostly tensions are diffused but occasionally there will be incidents of a violent nature.. it happens in school playgrounds, inside schools themselves, in work premises, in busy shopping malls, in public parks... every walk of life you care to mention; hotels, pubs, clubs, football grounds, and even Duckie in the private homes of millions of us every year.. even very occasionally on the floor of the parliaments of nations...Australia comes to mind here some years ago, Italy, South Africa and in committee rooms of my own, and once a long time ago, a Prime Minister of this country by the name of Spencer Perceval was shot and killed on the floor of the Commons....

Of course we should condemn violence wherever it is found.. and we should do all we can to ensure it does not occur.. people in the occupy camps have a responsibility to do this and both demonstrators and the authorities a responsibility not to stoke the tensions or create incidents which may result in much too powerful tension and suspicion which makes violence an inevitability.. but for now, overwhelmingly the Occupy camps around the world are peaceful places to be and whether we like or loathe what they do or stand against or for, we should be glad of it..

where you and me differ, is that I do not tend to think of protestors as angels or paragons of morals, ethics and model behievour...... and nor do I think of the police as brutal, baton welding sadists...

they are both normal, average everyday people and so things like attempted sexual assault, drug use etc etc, are not unusual things to happen, specially when you take a cross section of society and lump them together in a area....

the issue is one that I ( as I have posted ) do not take sides, so my opinion and overview is not biased or weighted on the side of one or the other.......
I am just simply not denying the issues that the protestors themselves are reporting from within the ranks of the protest movement....

there have already been a person arrested for attempted rape, the cops are looking for another person in connection with a shooting and numerous police and medical intervention with drug related issues, yet the reaction of some of the protestors, is that it has nothing to do with us, we are doing nothing wrong etc etc.....

you get a group of people in close proximity, you are bound to have issues..... its no big deal cos its no different to the rest of society..... but when protestors go on the defensive and claim that they are not connected to or part of any of the issues going on, thats when people start to get pissed off, cos the issues are a result of a lot of people in close proximity....

things like the issues with the sanitation at one of the parks, was stated to be the council trying to force the protestors out.... so what was the excuse for the other times the council cleaned the area ????

my simple point, is that protestors like to present a false image of what is going on, when in reality the issues do not normally exist in a area when the protestors are not there........

protestors as a whole would gain a lot more respect and understanding from people if they stopped playing the victims all the time and accept responsibility for the fact that their actions can be disruptive and other issues can flare up cos of a result of it.....

I respect the protestors that have sorted out security and other aspects in order to resolve issues as they happen... that shows proactive thinking and action, they are aware that issues may arise and instead of looking to blame others, they have taken actions themselves to limit the issues within their own ranks cos they are aware that issues can arise from within the ranks, regardless of who starts it.....

the police have had to divert a large number of officers to monitor the protests and so have other city councils.... thats costing time and money that will impact in other areas....... so yeah the protest groups that have worked together to minimise the issues and impact on the community and the cities, are, in my eyes, top notch protestors that do not have their heads up their asses.

as a couple of people have said in the thread, it would be nice if the occupy movement footed the bill for the extra costs incurred as a resort of the protests... unless the cost is gonna be carried by the taxpayer and that is gonna piss a lot of people off......

while its easy to say that its one of the side effects of protests and its unavoidable.... its not the protestors that have to recover the extra expenditure, that often falls on the community and municipals that lose income and funding......

its why in NZ with the civil union bill, we did our best to keep disruption and issues to the barest minimum as it was our march for rights, not others financial burden to carry.....

that is where I differ in opinion and thinking from a lot of the protestor groups... I do not pass the blame or make excuses for my actions, I take responsibility for them

[æonpax]

the war never ended in nam til 1975, a couple of years after the case church amendment bill was passed that stopped us military involvement as of august 73 however the us continued to provide support to the south vietnamese so, your statement is incorrect, <snipped for brevity>

In the US, Nixon was metaphorically, "scared to death" in regards to the action going on in the streets of this nation; that it had hastened the end of the Vietnam war. Aside from the growing body counts, the 60/70 rallies and riots had a tremendous effect on the public...the DNC convention in Chicago, Kent State, among a few, all televised. The sentiment began to wildly swing to ending the war.

While I hope the OWS rallies don't get violent, I also see history repeating itself with heavy handed police tactics in Oakland and NYC.

People who do not learn from history are always doomed to repeat it.

[pepperjack]

Before the rise of the wacked out loons from the right, like Palin and Bachmann, Anne Coulter ruled the roost for the most off the wall, irrelevant and out of context comments. Even moderate Republicans cringed when she spoke.


http://i.imgur.com/UT345.jpg

Yes she can push the envelope; nevertheles,her book is insightful; much of what I see on tv covering demonsrations(not just OWS) appears to be her words coming to life.

[æonpax]

Yes she can push the envelope; nevertheles,her book is insightful; much of what I see on tv covering demonsrations(not just OWS) appears to be her words coming to life.

Anne Coulter is a very educated and intelligent woman. I've seen videos of some of her talks. While we are not on the same level politically, I do (begrudgingly) admire her....except when she talks wacko.

[darkeyes]

where you and me differ, is that I do not tend to think of protestors as angels or paragons of morals, ethics and model behievour...... and nor do I think of the police as brutal, baton welding sadists...



Where u and I differ is in your view of me and not taking responsibility for my actions or that I feel protestors should not do so.. they should..and do most of them.. I certainly do..

Where you and I differ is in the purpose of the police.. many maybe even most are decent hard working honest human beings trying to make a life for themselves.. a bit like protestors.. but as an institution they are tools of the state, ostensibly to prevent and detect crime and violations of the law, but all too often become extensions of the desire by the authorities to crush brutally, any who oppose them..

Many protestors have caused violence in demonstrations throughout history and will do so again.. I deplore violence wherever it comes from.. but where u and I differ, is that I see that for every honest hard working and decent policeman or woman, there is a bastard, just itching to get wired in to demonstrators, peaceful or otherwise and under orders from those on high, are only too happy to oblige. I have seen it, lived it, suffered from it just as I have seen arseholes supposedly on my own side be bastards... and for them I, like many other peaceful demonstrators have taken our head in our hands and done our level best to stop them.. for no gratitude by the police as it so happens, having been threatened with arrest more than once for inciting violence for trying to do what I should be doing.. and other demonstrators have been less lucky.. and had shit kicked out of them for it by the police in any case.. and arrested..and even jailed..

[pepperjack]

Anne Coulter is a very educated and intelligent woman. I've seen videos of some of her talks. While we are not on the same level politically, I do (begrudgingly) admire her....except when she talks wacko. Yes, she was once named one of the top 100 public intellectuals by a federal judge. I actually kind of disliked her until I started reading her book, learning more about her. I think she has fun by being deliberately controversial in her speech.:smilies15

[æonpax]

<snip><unsnip>I think she has fun by being deliberately controversial in her speech.:smilies15

Touché

[void()]

I agree with LDD about defending one's self, family, community and possibly nation. That noted I also believe there are means other than violence which may be used. Violence should be a last resort.

Reminded of a Zen koan.

Young guy learning kenshido (way of the sword), hears of a wise master whom has retired to serving tea. This master is rumored to have been the greatest swordsman to ever live. The young guy thinks if he defeats the master, he'll gain such glory and fame.

He travels to the master and approaches him. The master continues on about his routine of serving tea, paying no heed to the young man. The young man says, "I've come to be the best." He makes ready to remove his sword from its sheath.

The master says, "Thus open the gates of Hell."

The young man puts the sword back into the sheath and takes a cup of tea.

"Thus open the gates of Heaven", the master says.

[tenni]

This thread is not about violence in protesting but the issue of limiting peaceful assembly of protests. Perhaps a new thread about violence in protest and public assembly may be started by the person diverting this thread away from its purpose?

Last night, the Occupiers Halifax were arrested in Victoria Park, Halifax, Nova Scotia..well fourteen of them were arrested. In Halifax, the mayor was just on TV stating that a bylaw about camping in public parks has been enforced. The Occupiers are back in the park today protesting. The mayor stated that they will be able to assemble and use the park just the same any citizen may. The Occupy Halifax group plan to march on city hall today.

The Occupy Halifax group had already made arrangements with the Legion to move from a space where the Remembrance Day ceremony was to be held and was held. There was compromise. A commentator states that because the Occupy group was conciliatory in the Remembrance Day ceremony gained a lot of public support. He called the city cowardly for sweeping down and removing them from the park (where this camp bylaw existed). The uncertainty is now which direction will the public support go?

Now, Regina has stated that the Occupiers must leave public parks due to the cold. In Vancouver, there is a municipal election where the Occupy Protest has taken a visible role. The public has not clearly taken one side yet or I'm not aware of the polls..other than the election may show the public support. In Vancouver, British Columbia, a judge has stated that the Occupiers have created an unsafe situation but the police have not moved in yet. The Toronto mayor is still threatening to go to court to get an eviction of the Occupiers. The Church that shares the land will not support the eviction.

The original group in New York seem to be safe from eviction and not dealing with public park situations. They will face cold soon though. Jamie how are they keeping warm?

What is going on in London England? Any movement by the city to remove them?

[darkeyes]

This thread is not about violence in protesting but the issue of limiting peaceful assembly of protests.

You are right in a sense Tenni.. but the beginning of violence is a limit where peaceful assembly ends and violence begins, and so it was perhaps inevitable that the thread has taken on the course it has and discussed the issue in the way it has...:)

..regarding London? No movement to end the protest is expected before the New year.. St Paul's has made that clear and the City of London cannt and wont do anything without their being a party to it.. certainly not before then...

[tenni]

darkeyes

I could not have made it clearer than I did with the title of the thread. Violence seems to be focused in some poster's mind. At the present time, there is no violence in Canada nor Britain nor New York city. The edge may be approaching in some Canadian cities and that is unfortunate. It has remained peaceful though as is the intent of the Occupiers. Others may have other plans to divert the peaceful assembly but have not succeeded. Interestingly it may be argued as to whether Canadian mayors are enforcing bylaws or looking for bylaws to end the peaceful assembly. I'm not sure what the mayors are up to and of mixed views.


Why do you reference January 1 as a benchmark that peaceful protest in London will continue? Is there some statute that makes that date relevant?

[keefer201]

I do not like $500,000 + of my HARD EARNED Tax $$$ having to be spent to clean up after the OWS protesters. I do respect their right to protest. maybe if they paid to clean up- i would accept more.

After getting college loans and years of stuying- they want me to pay for their loans?? NO WAY!! I paid off all my loans and never complained.

By the way- those they are protesting against- the ones with money? Who of us works for anyone who has No $$$ ??? Just a thought.

Leo; bloviating, pontificating, blathering, running off with the mouth, rambling is all well and good, BUT don't you dare come in and say something that actually makes sense. This is the most unbearable comment of all.:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

darkeyes

I could not have made it clearer than I did with the title of the thread. Violence seems to be focused in some poster's mind. At the present time, there is no violence in Canada nor Britain nor New York city. The edge may be approaching in some Canadian cities and that is unfortunate. It has remained peaceful though as is the intent of the Occupiers. Others may have other plans to divert the peaceful assembly but have not succeeded. Interestingly it may be argued as to whether Canadian mayors are enforcing bylaws or looking for bylaws to end the peaceful assembly. I'm not sure what the mayors are up to and of mixed views.


Why do you reference January 1 as a benchmark that peaceful protest in London will continue? Is there some statute that makes that date relevant?

I am sorry Tenni, I did not mean to imply that peaceful protest will continue till 1 January.. what I said is that St Paul's have said that no action will be taken prior to sometime, some indeterminate time in the New Year to bring the occupation to an end or more accurately have them move elsewhere.. in the meantime dialogue goes on between the Cathedral management and the demonstrators to find a way forward both can live with.. the City is for now more or less hamstrung and has to sit and watch, yet as soon as it feels it can move to break it up I am quite sure it shall.. but without the assistance or agreement of the Cathedral it will just have to sit on its hands and grin and bear it..

You're right.. there are those who just want to "expose" the demonstrations as violent. It is a long standing political ploy.. u and I both know in a protest of this magnitude scattered as it is across the globe, there will be incidents of violence, and for reasons of their own there are those who will carp on about it and make it out as worse than it is.. that sadly is the nature of protest and reaction to protest.. they will continue to work on it exaggerating in the hope that the myth can be made to become reality...and if it cant there is nothing like a tame media to make that into "reality" and so change public perception.. and I include the authorities who like nothing better than a nice headline and a sign of change in the public mood to let the police have their day no matter the truth of the matter...

[Long Duck Dong]

In the US, Nixon was metaphorically, "scared to death" in regards to the action going on in the streets of this nation; that it had hastened the end of the Vietnam war. Aside from the growing body counts, the 60/70 rallies and riots had a tremendous effect on the public...the DNC convention in Chicago, Kent State, among a few, all televised. The sentiment began to wildly swing to ending the war.




it ended the majority of the us involvement in the nam war.... it did not end the war... that ended when the vietcong took saigon, learn a lil about history will you

unless you want to state that the viet cong laid down their weapons and stopped fighting when the us voted to stop sending troops to nam, which did not happen.....as military troops were no longer being sent after august 73 and the war did not end til 75......

the only way protest action may have hastened the end of the war, is in the fact it left a country to fight against a invading force and be overran..... and that is what protestors tend to call collaterial damage..... a broad and oft used term to cover people that are wounded / killed or left in pain and suffering as a result of protest action. or a simple way of saying " shit happens, not our problem, not our fault, we got what we wanted "

[Long Duck Dong]

Where u and I differ is in your view of me and not taking responsibility for my actions or that I feel protestors should not do so.. they should..and do most of them.. I certainly do..

Where you and I differ is in the purpose of the police.. many maybe even most are decent hard working honest human beings trying to make a life for themselves.. a bit like protestors.. but as an institution they are tools of the state, ostensibly to prevent and detect crime and violations of the law, but all too often become extensions of the desire by the authorities to crush brutally, any who oppose them..

Many protestors have caused violence in demonstrations throughout history and will do so again.. I deplore violence wherever it comes from.. but where u and I differ, is that I see that for every honest hard working and decent policeman or woman, there is a bastard, just itching to get wired in to demonstrators, peaceful or otherwise and under orders from those on high, are only too happy to oblige. I have seen it, lived it, suffered from it just as I have seen arseholes supposedly on my own side be bastards... and for them I, like many other peaceful demonstrators have taken our head in our hands and done our level best to stop them.. for no gratitude by the police as it so happens, having been threatened with arrest more than once for inciting violence for trying to do what I should be doing.. and other demonstrators have been less lucky.. and had shit kicked out of them for it by the police in any case.. and arrested..and even jailed..


if I was going to say that we differ in view of taking responsibility, I would point out where I see people not taking responsibility.... which is something I have done.....

what I have pointed out constantly, is the way that often, protestors will take no responsibility for their own actions and blame others......

we both agree that the rights to protest is a human right, and that protests should be conducted as legally and as disruptive as possible..... but where we differ is the way things are conducted and the way that often actions and reactions are never seen as the responsibility of protesters....

if I own private land, and people trespass on it, I want the police to remove them.....its my legal right and the police have the legal right to take action

if I own private land and protestors trespass on it, I want the police to remove them, its my legal right and the police have the legal right to take action, the protestors will argue its their right to occupy my land, cos its their legal right to protect and that any action to remove them is a sign of opposition and the police being heavy handed, cos the protestors refuse to move.....

sure the protestors have the right to protest, but their right to protest doesn't make their actions legal and the actions of others, wrong......

I will not defend the police, I will defend the person that is a police officer, there is a big difference, in the same way I will not blame the police, i will blame the person that is a police officer........

its using the same understanding that you use, when you are talking about protestors and rioters and how they may be part of the same crowd, but they are not part of the same group.....
its also using the same understanding that all people that are military service people are not all front line fighters, many are cooks, clerks, mechanics, medics, but when people have a issue with the military, they lump them all in with the front line soldiers......

your statement about the police, is one that is full of lumping and judgement of the police as a whole....... I see things differently cos I have spent many hours with the police force at the local rsa.....talking with them person to person, not person to cop....

they may not be perfect, but by god they are under appreciated by the majority of society....... and while they may be the *bastards that are stopping you protesting * often they are the same * bastards that are stopping riots that endanger property, lives and the general community *

as one cop said to me once, you wanna talk about a thankless job, be a cop, no matter what we do or how we do it, we are going to get rubbished and abused, but be expected to be the guardian angels of a society that thinks that we should all fuck off and not infringe on their rights to do as they see fit......
if we all did fuck off, the first thing that would happen, is people would demand to know what we are not out there doing the very same thing they abuse us for doing.......

thats what I see, fran..... people, simple, ordinary everyday people trying to do a job, and getting abused for doing their jobs and abused when they are not doing their job.... and they do appreciate people that do not make their jobs a living hell with metal poles, bricks, batons, molotov cocktails, riots etc..... its just that the general public often never take the time to listen to the cops say thank you, cos they are too busy blaming the cops for some other issue or problem.....

at my local rsa, we were the first in NZ, to open the doors to the cops so they can have their once a year, honoring of the men and women in blue, their award giving, and their acknowledgement of those amongst their ranks that are no more.... previously it all happened behind closed doors.

now, they come to the local rsa and they can stand beside a person that apparently put 17 of them in hospital over the years ( according to my police record ) and I can stand beside people that fight every day, to keep our societies as safe as possible...... and we can see that each other is only human......

do i regret what I have done to the police, yes I do.... they were only people doing a job, and I made their lives a living hell at times..... but now I understand their jobs can be hell too, cos they have to deal with people like protestors that see the cops as heavy handed bastards, when often the cops would perfer not to have to deal with protestors with agendas......

when was the last time you apologised to the cops for making their jobs harder....or causing issues for them that they would rather not have to deal with...... cos I have, a number of times.....

[æonpax]

it ended the majority of the us involvement in the nam war.... it did not end the war... that ended when the vietcong took saigon, learn a lil about history will you <snipped for bevity>

I will not engage in a discussion about history with you. I can source every last thing I've stated here as being fact but I can tell by the tenor of your replies and your splitting of grammatical hairs, that this is crossing too much into an emotional discussion and getting too far off track. You are free to believe what you want...but as the quote goes;




"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

[æonpax]

This thread is not about violence in protesting but the issue of limiting peaceful assembly of protests. Perhaps a new thread about violence in protest and public assembly may be started by the person diverting this thread away from its purpose?


You must excuse me if one topic begets another. Unless you can say I was deliberately trying to derail your thread, which I wasn't, in due course, it is common that open discussions take different directions.

Perhaps a bit more tact is in order.

[Long Duck Dong]

I will not engage in a discussion about history with you. I can source every last thing I've stated here as being fact but I can tell by the tenor of your replies and your splitting of grammatical hairs, that this is crossing too much into an emotional discussion and getting too far off track. You are free to believe what you want...but as the quote goes;




"Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining."

you can source what ever you want..... the date when the us involvement in nam was officially ended was august 73 and when the war ended, was on 25th april 75, and thats simple fact.......

most of the anti nam war protests ended in 73 with the signing of the paris peace accord on 27 January 1973 cos the protestors believed they had won and that the war was going to be over......

it never stopped the fighting in nam, until the vietcong took saigon..... and that ended 116 years of fighting in nam, against a number of countries.....

that is simple fact.

[æonpax]

tenni;

My sincere apologies for assuming it was me. Politics, like religion, tends to be a hot button unless one is paying attention which I was not.

[æonpax]

you can source what ever you want..... the date when the us involvement in nam was officially ended was august 73 and when the war ended, was on 25th april 75, and thats simple fact.......most of the anti nam war protests ended in 73 with the signing of the paris peace accord on 27 January 1973 cos the protestors believed they had won and that the war was going to be over......it never stopped the fighting in nam, until the vietcong took saigon..... and that ended 116 years of fighting in nam, against a number of countries.....that is simple fact.


First off, you are taking your information almost straight off the Slate article that was reposted here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2007/01/how_vietnam_really_ended.html Need I remind you, that is ONE person's opinion.

Next, I really don't want to engage you as to whose version of history is correct. As I had stated, you are welcome to your version but that does not square with any of the academic research and historical accounts. Look here for example, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+end+protests+%22vietnam+war%22 Pick any of these articles, I don't care.

Third, recently faux news pundit Bill O'Reilly wrote a book on the assassination of President Lincoln. It is already being panned by scholars, historians and experts on Lincoln as having "lack of documentation", "factual errors" and being "revisionist." http://www.salon.com/2011/11/12/fords_theatre_flunks_oreillys_lincoln_book/?source=newsletter Nonetheless, Bill's audience is screaming mad at this. Point being, believe what you want but keep these discussions based on reality, not opinion.

Lastly, the real point you object to is my analogy of Vietnam protests VS the OWS protests, which got off track. If you don't like the analogy, all I can say is, too bad. We disagree and that's that.

[Long Duck Dong]

First off, you are taking your information almost straight off the Slate article that was reposted here: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2007/01/how_vietnam_really_ended.html Need I remind you, that is ONE person's opinion.

Next, I really don't want to engage you as to whose version of history is correct. As I had stated, you are welcome to your version but that does not square with any of the academic research and historical accounts. Look here for example, http://lmgtfy.com/?q=why+end+protests+%22vietnam+war%22 Pick any of these articles, I don't care.

Third, recently faux news pundit Bill O'Reilly wrote a book on the assassination of President Lincoln. It is already being panned by scholars, historians and experts on Lincoln as having "lack of documentation", "factual errors" and being "revisionist." http://www.salon.com/2011/11/12/fords_theatre_flunks_oreillys_lincoln_book/?source=newsletter Nonetheless, Bill's audience is screaming mad at this. Point being, believe what you want but keep these discussions based on reality, not opinion.

Lastly, the real point you object to is my analogy of Vietnam protests VS the OWS protests, which got off track. If you don't like the analogy, all I can say is, too bad. We disagree and that's that.


my info actually comes from people like my stepfather ( nam vet, victor 6 company ) the numerous mixed country vets at the local rsa ( people that were in nam..... the nz waiouru army museum, the vets association nam collection ( which incidently, contains a few actual recordings of the us radio network in nam and pics of what happened that the public were not told about, and smuggled out of nam ) books like * the grey ghosts, actual vets stories about nam and what happened there.....

in part, my own trip to vietnam, many years ago......

but hey, what would the vietmese people, the vets and assorted american service people know ??

what website did you say you got your info from ?????

[Hephaestion]

hep, I was refering to the fact that the nam war ended when the viet cong took saigon..... that had nothing to do with protests in the us or what politicians did or did not do.....

its aeonpax that made the statement that protests were part of the reason that the nam war ended..... which is incorrect as the viet cong did not give a rats ass about protestors in the us or their opinions.

the protests may have assisted in some respects to ending the majority of the us involvement in the nam war, but they did not end the war, as is being claimed.............


LDD, I think that you and I must differ on that point. Certainly, the taking of Saigon cemented the end but the protests pursuaded the Government of the USA to withdraw direct involvement leading up to the fall of Saigon.

H.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, I think that you and I must differ on that point. Certainly, the taking of Saigon cemented the end but the protests pursuaded the Government of the USA to withdraw direct involvement leading up to the fall of Saigon.

H.

pretty much what I have been saying...... the withdrawal of troops from nam led to the country being taken over.....

but it still did not end the war.....

what it did do, was allow a communism regime to take over nam..... and honestly I can not help but wonder how many of the anti war protestors were anti communist as well and would fight tooth and nail against communism rule in the US cos its a country that prides itself on protecting its freedoms for its people......

[darkeyes]

This could have been rioutous yesterday but wasnt. Bitta common sense by demonstrator, protestor, St Paul's, the City of London and the Lord Mayor of London. Poor bugger was the 1st in 8 centuries not the be sworn in where they usually are, but hey.. thats life innit? A very small victory for peaceful protest and common sense..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/12/st-pauls-canon-occupy-protest

My daughter was in town yesterday with her m8s and she popped in 2 check on protest at St Andrews Square.. now she has been b4 several times with us, but this is the first time I know that she has attended a protest all of 'er own volition.. am dead chuffed with her... not bad goin' for a lil adolescent horror.. she came home with a new V for Vendetta mask an all.. think for the UK protests the V for Vendetta masks are really appropriate... not sure the police like them much but they have been pretty good natured about it all.

http://occupyedinburgh.org/

[Hephaestion]

pretty much what I have been saying...... the withdrawal of troops from nam led to the country being taken over.....

but it still did not end the war.....

what it did do, was allow a communism regime to take over nam..... and honestly I can not help but wonder how many of the anti war protestors were anti communist as well and would fight tooth and nail against communism rule in the US cos its a country that prides itself on protecting its freedoms for its people......

".......... that had nothing to do with protests in the us or what politicians did or did not do....."

The protests were absolutely fundamental in getting the USA politicians to withdraw troops leading to the inevitable return of the country to its legitimate rulers whoever these were seen to be.

On balance it would appear to have been the original Viet Minh who wanted to establish self determination in the face of the French who were keen on re-establishing colonial rule following the ousting of the Japanes invaders in WW2. The Viet Minh metamorphosed into the Viet Cong i.e. essentially the same core people who eventually wanted all meddlers out to allow them to unify their country with its constitution modelled on that of the USA in harmonious gratitude for WW2 help. Unfortunately the French seduced the USA into getting involved, swapping sides in the process and subsequetly supporting them. What a misunderstanding that was.

Oh Dear, it's happeing again, defending creationists as a devout scientist and communists as a capitalist. Never mind, Communo-Capitalist China sweetens this last pill.

.

[darkeyes]

..... and honestly I can not help but wonder how many of the anti war protestors were anti communist as well and would fight tooth and nail against communism rule in the US cos its a country that prides itself on protecting its freedoms for its people......

Interesting statement that.... and like the British and French before them and even now to some degree, while trying to impose their will upon any nation or people whose idea of freedom is not in accord with its own...and it is much better to fight to preserve your freedom in someone else's living room isnt it? No matter the human cost...

[Long Duck Dong]

".......... that had nothing to do with protests in the us or what politicians did or did not do....."

The protests were absolutely fundamental in getting the USA politicians to withdraw troops leading to the inevitable return of the country to its legitimate rulers whoever these were seen to be.

On balance it would appear to have been the original Viet Minh who wanted to establish self determination in the face of the French who were keen on re-establishing colonial rule following the ousting of the Japanes invaders in WW2. The Viet Minh metamorphosed into the Viet Cong i.e. essentially the same core people who eventually wanted all meddlers out to allow them to unify their country with its constitution modelled on that of the USA in harmonious gratitude for WW2 help. Unfortunately the French seduced the USA into getting involved, swapping sides in the process and subsequetly supporting them. What a misunderstanding that was.

Oh Dear, it's happeing again, defending creationists as a devout scientist and communists as a capitalist. Never mind, Communo-Capitalist China sweetens this last pill.

.

right, the protests did not end the war, the vietcong ended the war.... just as I have been saying....

side point, the protestors were as vocal about the vets and their wellbeing as they were about the war, then maybe the vets would have gotten a fair shake when they returned home...

where were the protestors that were so vocal about the soldiers overseas and about how they were suffering and how we needed to get our soldiers home so we could look after them ???

hence why I have the attitude about protestors that I do.... as I have seem many protests in NZ, and dammed near every time the result of their actions comes to pass, they vanish.....but the echos of how good things will be and how much better it will be, still ring in our ears.......

it took 30+ years of fighting in NZ to start getting compensation packages for the nam vets here and even tho, they still have to fight for it, cos the people that are opposed to it, are some of the same anti war protestors that wanted our boys home so they could be looked after....

[darkeyes]

Lastly, the real point you object to is my analogy of Vietnam protests VS the OWS protests, which got off track. If you don't like the analogy, all I can say is, too bad. We disagree and that's that.

I like u... u an Duckie r gettin on just fine.. tee hee:bigrin:;)

[Long Duck Dong]

Interesting statement that.... and like the British and French before them and even now to some degree, while trying to impose their will upon any nation or people whose idea of freedom is not in accord with its own...and it is much better to fight to preserve your freedom in someone else's living room isnt it? No matter the human cost...

it depends, fran, in all honesty...... on your defination of freedom......

i would happily wander off to countries that are in need of a ex military person, that could help them fight for their freedom..... cos it beats the hell outta staying in a country where my own ability to live, has been shot to hell by people ( the greenies etc ) that think their way of doing things, is going to make my life better......

the cost of building a house now, is over $300k per house, 30% of nz'ers should be able to buy their own house.... 5 years ago, it was $170k and 54% of nzers could afford their own homes.....

between the greenies and their solar power installations ( 30K ) and the high interest rates ( world recession ) and the increased labour costs ( wage increases ) most of nz will not be able to own their own home..... and the hilarious thing is its other peoples agendas that caused that.... and took away my ability to own my own home by making it impossible for most working families to afford their own homes....

now they want wages to go up and the government to provide more funding to get people into their first home..... and not once have they admitted, that their way did not work.... they blamed everybody else

at least in a 3rd world / middle east country, the bank will not foreclose on my home, the pay rate for mercs is on par with some ceos and most protestors and greenies are too scared to set foot in the country and screw things up

[Hephaestion]

LDD we see different end points. Without the USA there, the war drew to its inevitable end. The protestors preciptated the USA withdrawal. It's like babies. There is sex and much later there is a birth - cause and effect. Let's agree to differ.

When it comes to supporting the vets, we do this at every opportunity in this country. We do protest through all avenues at the treatment of our service personnel. Certainly we support Rememberance Day. There are firms which exclusively or preferentially employ (often disabled) service men and women.

However all of these are constantly in danger from the greed and excessiveness of the amoral capitalists and back slappers.

The market adjusts to the elevated monetary standards that these people are able to set. There are inevitable casualties in a world of unbridled relentless competition where there are winners and losers. One aspect of your price rises is just this.

Some competition is good. Too much competition leads to inefficiency and emaciation. The problem being that there is now no competition for the amoral capitalists (thank you Mrs T and her like). That's where demonstrations come in.

Set up checks and balances e.g. a functioning democracy and the demonstrators will go away (because there will be an alternative mechanism)

You do have a point that the greenies of which I include myself do ask for too much but we must all realise that there are finite world resources. These are under threat from the size of the world's population and the idea that economies can continue expanding and consuming.

[void()]

Oh Dear, it's happeing again, defending creationists as a devout scientist and communists as a capitalist. Never mind, Communo-Capitalist China sweetens this last pill.


Deja history repeating itself vu, not to belabor but I did say ... :) I'll snarf 'long now, need tea n bisquits.

[darkeyes]

LDD we see different end points. Without the USA there, the war drew to its inevitable end. The protestors preciptated the USA withdrawal. It's like babies. There is sex and much later there is a birth - cause and effect. Let's agree to differ.

When it comes to supporting the vets, we do this at every opportunity in this country. We do protest through all avenues at the treatment of our service personnel. Certainly we support Rememberance Day. There are firms which exclusively or preferentially employ (often disabled) service men and women.

However all of these are constantly in danger from the greed and excessiveness of the amoral capitalists and back slappers.

The market adjusts to the elevated monetary standards that these people are able to set. There are inevitable casualties in a world of unbridled relentless competition where there are winners and losers. One aspect of your price rises is just this.

Some competition is good. Too much competition leads to inefficiency and emaciation. The problem being that there is now no competition for the amoral capitalists (thank you Mrs T and her like). That's where demonstrations come in.

Set up checks and balances e.g. a functioning democracy and the demonstrators will go away (because there will be an alternative mechanism)

You do have a point that the greenies of which I include myself do ask for too much but we must all realise that there are finite world resources. These are under threat from the size of the world's population and the idea that economies can continue expanding and consuming.

I have no intention of getting into the Vietnam argy.. it was an unnecessary war which needn't have been... all I can say is well done the protestors of the 60s and 70s... no they didnt end the war, but by their actions they were responsible for it.. a war which neednt have started in 1946, could have been ended once and for all in 1955 and was continued only to feed the paranoia of two power blocs with one considerably more paranoid and responsible than the other.. Vietnam wasnt by the way two seperate countries, it was two seperate parts of the same every ancient country forcibly partitioned arbitrarily in 1955 to satisfy everyone and satisfied no 1 with inevitable results. After 1955 Vietnam became a civil war as much as a war of colonialism and ideology. Its end was at best two decades late so I say yes, well done the protestors.. without you it would probably be going on yet...

..and even with checks and balances Heph demonstration and protest will be needed.. they are in fact an honourable check in themselves to balance uppity governments which any democratic system is likely to throw up...

Finally.. as a committed "greenie" who spends rather a lot of time and money on green issues (including soon to be installed solar panels on her roof), and has a partner and children who are even more devoted and committed to the green cause than me, the greenies babes, have been and are being incredibly reasonable in the face of international intransigence by governments and capital alike... the clock ticks on and the environmetal state of the world isnt improving that much if at all.. the world warms, we pollute, we rape the earth and give so little back.. to save our world I'm afraid costs... unfortunately humanity and its institutions doesnt seem to be prepared to pay those costs sufficiently.. so maybe before long, it will be the ferryman we will have to pay... and dear old Charon's price for passage is more than I or anyone else would prefer or can afford to pay...

[æonpax]

my info actually comes from people like my stepfather ( nam vet, victor 6 company ) the numerous mixed country vets at the local rsa ( people that were in nam..... the nz waiouru army museum, the vets association nam collection ( which incidently, contains a few actual recordings of the us radio network in nam and pics of what happened that the public were not told about, and smuggled out of nam ) books like * the grey ghosts, actual vets stories about nam and what happened there.....in part, my own trip to vietnam, many years ago......but hey, what would the vietmese people, the vets and assorted american service people know ?? what website did you say you got your info from ?????

I'm young but I have also had some interaction with Vets, including Vietnam, through various groups but mainly from volunteering at a Nursing home. Their stories are so fascinating, that I've voice recorded them. Some are very bitter and anti-war. Some are very bitter and pro-war. But most are cool and just like telling me things...much of which I don't think I should be knowing about...like about LRRP activities, etc.

Be the as it may, I am passionately anti-war except if it follows the "Just War" theory. I am very passionately against war for oil and war for the sake of keeping the corporate military complex in black ink. I am passionately against plutocracy and corporately.

[tenni]

This thread has nothing to do with VietNam and vets from that "situation". If you won't start your own thread maybe I should start one for those who wish to discuss fifty year old wars & protests etc.:(

Today, someone that I know posted this video on Facebook about the Occupy group near my city entering a bank yesterday(Saturday). They were disrupting the daily activity of the bank but not too much as I notice that they were actually in the anteroom before people are lined up to do their banking. Banks are regulated more in Canada than the US(not sure about Britain). Canadian banks didn't need a bailout a few years back from the Canadian Government etc. In fact, they have continued to make good profits throughout the recession(s) as I recall. Certainly, they are making profits now yet the average depositor makes dick all on any money that they place in these banks. User fees etc. must be the way the banks are still rolling in profits?

I'm not sure if the claims of these protestors are correct.(Banks owe Canadian billions in taxes). I also felt a bit uncomfortable with the chant that "we are the 99%) I'm not sure that these particular protestors really represent 99% but it is a good chant...:bigrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFlipMnyJY&feature=player_embedded

[jamieknyc]

Tenni, OWS is assembling winterized tends, sleeping bags and other winter gear in preparation for the cold weather. You have to realize, though, that a lot of the protestors do not actually sleep there, but come during the day. Many of them are people who work in the area and who protest on their lunch hour or after work.

[12voltman59]

One thing for sure, officials in many of the places that occupy events are gong on are trying to bring them to an end----I would like to be able to take those officials at their word that they are seeking a cessation of the events due to public health and safety concerns---but then again---I don't know if I quite trust their intentions.

One thing is for sure though----I do believe that even if the occupy situations are ended either voluntarily or by force---the "movement' is not something that is going away and will be sure to return with the coming of good weather in the spring.

Perhaps if there is a step back from the current "protests" or whatever they are----there will be a bit more of a focus on specific issues with specific ways of dealing with those problems.

I don't really see the need for one overall person or even a committee to emerge that serve as figureheads for the "movement" since if that were the case--they would be people that could either be shot down as being unreliable due to past transgressions in their past or alternately--could be "bought off" or otherwise compromised in some fashion.

I think that may be one of the reasons the talking head rightwing nuts go ballistic over this movement---it doesn't follow the standard practice of having figurehead people leading it.

They have no one to either attack directly and discredit or try to get them to sell out the movement.

http://news.yahoo.com/pressure-leave-mounts-occupy-camps-011047948.html

[Long Duck Dong]

I have no intention of getting into the Vietnam argy.. it was an unnecessary war which needn't have been... all I can say is well done the protestors of the 60s and 70s... no they didnt end the war, but by their actions they were responsible for it.. a war which neednt have started in 1946, could have been ended once and for all in 1955 and was continued only to feed the paranoia of two power blocs with one considerably more paranoid and responsible than the other.. Vietnam wasnt by the way two seperate countries, it was two seperate parts of the same every ancient country forcibly partitioned arbitrarily in 1955 to satisfy everyone and satisfied no 1 with inevitable results. After 1955 Vietnam became a civil war as much as a war of colonialism and ideology. Its end was at best two decades late so I say yes, well done the protestors.. without you it would probably be going on yet...

..and even with checks and balances Heph demonstration and protest will be needed.. they are in fact an honourable check in themselves to balance uppity governments which any democratic system is likely to throw up...

Finally.. as a committed "greenie" who spends rather a lot of time and money on green issues (including soon to be installed solar panels on her roof), and has a partner and children who are even more devoted and committed to the green cause than me, the greenies babes, have been and are being incredibly reasonable in the face of international intransigence by governments and capital alike... the clock ticks on and the environmetal state of the world isnt improving that much if at all.. the world warms, we pollute, we rape the earth and give so little back.. to save our world I'm afraid costs... unfortunately humanity and its institutions doesnt seem to be prepared to pay those costs sufficiently.. so maybe before long, it will be the ferryman we will have to pay... and dear old Charon's price for passage is more than I or anyone else would prefer or can afford to pay...

I find that hilarious fran.... its the same mentality that i talk about a lot in the forums..... protestors and advocates that * win * their fights and so think that everybody is happy and better off.......

its the * we won, its a victory and thats all that matters * mentality......

the issue with the solar panels in NZ, is part of a issue with the greenies and their resource consents, environmental impact statements etc, it involves a number of law change that adversely affects the majority of NZ'ers that want to buy their own home and has created the NZ housing crisis

the greenies called the law changes a victory... now that they realised the full extent of the impact on NZ'ers, they are blaming the government for the result, not the greenies lack of foresight and refusal to listen to people......

now they want a $15 a hour minimum wage, that will result in more job losses, more outsourcing and more small businesses folding, the same thing that has happened the last 3 times, in order to counter balance the other laws they had implimented IE the solar panels in new homes ........

rather than stop and think about what they are fighting for and the impact on people, the greenies would rather fight for their victories and blame other people for the impact and drastic failure of the policies......

the nam war protests are no different in that respect, the protestors protested, the us withdrew military troop, the protestors claim the victory, the fact that governments turned their backs on the troops, and the vietnamese people were left to deal with the fall out... but its a victory for the protestors and thats all that matters.......

its the same with the anti smacking bill in NZ, another greenie law and they celebrated their victory with talk about how it will cease child abuse in NZ.... strangely enuf, the reverse has happened, the increase in child deaths and child abuse is shocking..... and the greenies are blaming the government for not taking action against child abuse......
( interesting side note, this is the same greens party that OPPOSED the increase in jail term for possession of child porn from 2 years to 5 years, arguing that possession of child porn is not that serious a offense, to warrant such a harsh jail term...... maybe I am wrong, but in order to have child porn, children have to be abused to create it, I guess the greenies see it differently )

changes to the NZ law in regards to environmental laws and resource consents have opened the way for big chinese corporations to come into NZ and place $100 mill dollar offers for a number of NZ farms that collapsed under massive debt ( a indirect result of the greenies resource consents costs )......
once again, we see a failed policy that was implemented after protests......

who do we see protesting the interests of big chinese corporations in NZ???, the greenies.... the same greenies that are in government and blaming the government for the laws that are so costly, that most NZ business groups, can not afford to buy the farms and keep them NZ owned..... the same greenies that got the laws passed in the first place......

these are the same greenies that are opposing wind farms and hydro dams in NZ, the same greenies that fought to force the energy companies to consider and move to more sustainable and renewable energy generation options in NZ....

back to the nam war..... and a final comment..... protestors protested the us involvement in the war, they claimed their victory ( it did not end the war ).... cos its not about the effects or fallout as a results of a protest... its about the victory and thats all people can see... they get their victory......

as for the occupy movement, I am not worried about it..... push will come to shove, things MAY change, but for the people that any change will impact badly on, its only collateral damage... what matters is the victory.......

the trouble fran, is that like many others, I could end up paying a high price as a result of the occupy movement and the fall out from it.... in the same way i, like so many NZ'ers are paying a massive price cos a few greenies wanted their idea of change implemented......

there will always be people affected adversely by change and as a result of protest action.... so I guess in a way, i should be considerate and respectful and say thank you in advance to the protestors for the fall out that will no doubt fuck things up even more for many of us, make life even harder...... and thank you so much for taking the shattered dreams of so many people, and rubbing our faces in them.........

cos its about the victory of the protest... not the people it affects......

[DuckiesDarling]

It is interesting reading the "demands" of some of the groups. They seem to not only want corporations to fail but they want government to practice hands off governing. That just won't work, if corporations fail then where will you buy your clothes? I'm sure that everyone in the world knows how to make their own designer knockoffs. If corporations fail then I guess all those restaurants you count on for take out can just go away and everyone will learn to cook their own food. If corporations fail then there will be an instability in the job market that makes the current batch of shit they are protesting against look like a walk in the park.

What I haven't seen is one person come up with a way to do things better than they are already being done. People can spout all they want about not liking things, but until you have a solution in hand it does no good to keep throwing stones when you also live in glass houses.

[Long Duck Dong]

the natural progression of protesting.....

(each sentence runs in sequence with the pics )

1) we decide that we are not being told the truth

2) we will decide that it is time for protesting as talking is not working

3) we will listen to all the people that question what we are trying to accomplish

4) we will provide proof that corporations are rich conglomerates with fancy cars, millions in the bank and executive offices

5) we will have change implimented that we tell people, is for the better.....

[darkeyes]

I find that hilarious fran.... its the same mentality that i talk about a lot in the forums..... protestors and advocates that * win * their fights and so think that everybody is happy and better off.......

its the * we won, its a victory and thats all that matters * mentality......

the issue with the solar panels in NZ, is part of a issue with the greenies and their resource consents, environmental impact statements etc, it involves a number of law change that adversely affects the majority of NZ'ers that want to buy their own home and has created the NZ housing crisis

the greenies called the law changes a victory... now that they realised the full extent of the impact on NZ'ers, they are blaming the government for the result, not the greenies lack of foresight and refusal to listen to people......

now they want a $15 a hour minimum wage, that will result in more job losses, more outsourcing and more small businesses folding, the same thing that has happened the last 3 times, in order to counter balance the other laws they had implimented IE the solar panels in new homes ........

rather than stop and think about what they are fighting for and the impact on people, the greenies would rather fight for their victories and blame other people for the impact and drastic failure of the policies......

the nam war protests are no different in that respect, the protestors protested, the us withdrew military troop, the protestors claim the victory, the fact that governments turned their backs on the troops, and the vietnamese people were left to deal with the fall out... but its a victory for the protestors and thats all that matters.......

its the same with the anti smacking bill in NZ, another greenie law and they celebrated their victory with talk about how it will cease child abuse in NZ.... strangely enuf, the reverse has happened, the increase in child deaths and child abuse is shocking..... and the greenies are blaming the government for not taking action against child abuse......
( interesting side note, this is the same greens party that OPPOSED the increase in jail term for possession of child porn from 2 years to 5 years, arguing that possession of child porn is not that serious a offense, to warrant such a harsh jail term...... maybe I am wrong, but in order to have child porn, children have to be abused to create it, I guess the greenies see it differently )

changes to the NZ law in regards to environmental laws and resource consents have opened the way for big chinese corporations to come into NZ and place $100 mill dollar offers for a number of NZ farms that collapsed under massive debt ( a indirect result of the greenies resource consents costs )......
once again, we see a failed policy that was implemented after protests......

who do we see protesting the interests of big chinese corporations in NZ???, the greenies.... the same greenies that are in government and blaming the government for the laws that are so costly, that most NZ business groups, can not afford to buy the farms and keep them NZ owned..... the same greenies that got the laws passed in the first place......

these are the same greenies that are opposing wind farms and hydro dams in NZ, the same greenies that fought to force the energy companies to consider and move to more sustainable and renewable energy generation options in NZ....

back to the nam war..... and a final comment..... protestors protested the us involvement in the war, they claimed their victory ( it did not end the war ).... cos its not about the effects or fallout as a results of a protest... its about the victory and thats all people can see... they get their victory......

as for the occupy movement, I am not worried about it..... push will come to shove, things MAY change, but for the people that any change will impact badly on, its only collateral damage... what matters is the victory.......

the trouble fran, is that like many others, I could end up paying a high price as a result of the occupy movement and the fall out from it.... in the same way i, like so many NZ'ers are paying a massive price cos a few greenies wanted their idea of change implemented......

there will always be people affected adversely by change and as a result of protest action.... so I guess in a way, i should be considerate and respectful and say thank you in advance to the protestors for the fall out that will no doubt fuck things up even more for many of us, make life even harder...... and thank you so much for taking the shattered dreams of so many people, and rubbing our faces in them.........

cos its about the victory of the protest... not the people it affects......

You find it hilarious, Duckie, cos u parrot so much of the nice guff we find in the right wing media and we hear spouted out of the gobs of right wing politicians.. thats ok with me.. I don't mind that... their view is as valid as any I may have and their right, like your own to spout it...it is their and your point of view from their and your perspective... not a perspective with which I agree but thats what freedom of speech is about is it not?

Of course the victory matters Duckie.. what is the point of protesting if we don't want to win? And I agree there will be those who will be adversely affected by any victory.. all I can say to that is such is life.. sometimes it is regrettable and sometimes not.. it is not whether we affect people adversely or not.. it is whether or not we have right and justice on our side... that is invariably a subjective judgement but in a scrap between two opposing views what other kind is there? But it is not simply about the victory of any protest... it is about principle, justice, right, belief, cause.. the right thing to do and to strive for.. if we use the yardstick that no one will get hurt by our protest, we will do nothing..

I am unable to answer for how Greens act in New Zealand.. although I suspect there is a lot more to it than you make out.. by deflecting the arguments away from green issues is a red herring. No party is perfect and all act as idiots from time to time.. even on the narrow issues which brought about their rise in the first place. I have always argued that environmentalism and conservation costs.. costs will be born by ordinary citzens that is unavoidable for whether improvements are paid out of taxation or out of the pockets and bank accounts of ordinary citizens when improving property or whatever.. it is how it is... more.. it is how it should be and we should always remember that. Everything has to be paid for. It depends just how much we are prepared to pay doesn't it?

My mum's favourite sayin is "We get owt for nowt". I use it myself quite often.. and sometimes Duckie, grinning, bearing and coughing up for things is unavoidable...stopping the ruination of our world, a ruination brought upon it by human activity isn't something we have to do.. we can continue its rape and pay the price.. or we can seriously begin to pay the price of saving it in our long term interests and those who come after us.. . I know which I would rather pay.. and as far as we can, through both taxation AND out of our own income and savings as well as our time, it is a price both Kate and I as well as millions of others are glad to pay and are paying... the alternative is far too scary to think about.. the big problem we run into Duckie, is that far too often there are those of power and privilege who will do everything they can to make sure they pay nothing and even gain much, while others.. the overwhelming majority pay for the mistakes, wheezes and/or greed of that privileged, powerful few... and our politicians, many of whom are part of that bent gang of thieves have for decades been all to glad to help them out... and we ordinary,individually less privileged and less powerful suckers have always paid the price..

In the UK, we too have problems about first time buyers getting on the property market... . but the last people we want to go around blaming are the Greens... responsibility for that lies elsewhere..and on minimum wage, outsourcing abroad of jobs and industry, the last people we want to be blaming are the greens... implementation of a minimum wage in this country for instance has had no real effect on that.. that was going on long before we had a minimum wage and will continue if we abolish it... and dont blame the greens for Chinese or any other country's corporations taking over your farms or businesses.... even before the greens had any influence at all, great corporations from around the world were moving in and taking over both successful and failing business.... it is the nature of capitalism that does that and its need to continue extending its long arm and grubby paws to every nook and cranny on earth..

..and dont blame the greens for what happens when people physically abuse children.. I was never smacked, and shall never smack my own child.. I do believe in outlawing the physical punishment of children..it teaches children violence and fear little else.. I suggest you look more deeply into the problems of your society for the reasons why child death and abuse are on the increase in the same way I do my own...

I cannot say anything about the Greens opposing particular renewable energy projects without knowing the detail.. they oppose them here too sometimes... for it does happen that a project can be wrong for a particular location, and the environmental consequences outweigh any gains that might accrue.. doing something just to be seen to be doing something or because it seems a good idea and getting it wrong can be worse and more damaging than doing nothing. Hydro electric power is incredibly expensive in terms of land loss and potentially catastrophic to wild life and yes even farmers losing their livelihood. and sometimes whole towns and villages are submerged. I am not opposed in principle to hydro power but in the right place for the right reasons.. sometimes what are considered green projects are not green at all.... placing windfarms in the wrong locations can also have its adverse affects on habitat for wildlife whether on or of shore... saving the planet is not only about cleaning up the environment it is about conserving what we have as far as we are able.. we have to balance human need, and that of the flora and fauna of this world while trying to stop ourselves from making an ever bigger hash of it than we are doing..

...and dont blame the protestors for fucking things up or making them worse.. which is what you have been doing.. it is what you always do by your sniping.. try and think why protest happens, and whether there is justification for it.. protestors wont always get it right even if they win their fight.. sometimes they will stand on the toes of others and cause for them some hurt... that does not make the protest wrong.. I am not uncritical of protestors.. but at least I know whose side I am on and where my interests lie.. but protest is about making things better.. not how much a successful protest will cost or who will get hurt by it.. and I will say this also, Duckie.. several times in my life I have participated in protests and campaigns which were not in my personal interest.. they were quite the opposite.. but felt they were the right thing to do.. my conscience and principles would allow me to do no other.. if only more people would take that attitude our world would be a better place... sometimes we have to think of other people than just ousrselves.. I live my life by that.. it is who I am..

..and in answer to Tenni's original question, by knowing whose side I am on... there are no limits to the scope of peaceful protest.. from marches to occupations, lobbies of parliament, to strikes and civil disobedience and closing the down economic and activity of a nation.. there are no limits.. save that of not one protestor raising so much as a hand to any other person... what business or the authorities do in response to any protest is their affair...

.. you talk about protestors blaming everyone but themselves... I suggest, babes, that u look at your own posts on this one thread alone.. for it is just about all you done...

[void()]

It is interesting reading the "demands" of some of the groups. They seem to not only want corporations to fail but they want government to practice hands off governing. That just won't work, if corporations fail then where will you buy your clothes? I'm sure that everyone in the world knows how to make their own designer knockoffs. If corporations fail then I guess all those restaurants you count on for take out can just go away and everyone will learn to cook their own food. If corporations fail then there will be an instability in the job market that makes the current batch of shit they are protesting against look like a walk in the park.

What I haven't seen is one person come up with a way to do things better than they are already being done. People can spout all they want about not liking things, but until you have a solution in hand it does no good to keep throwing stones when you also live in glass houses.

The know how, materials and technology exist to automate most of the stuff you put forward. Further, distribution could be automated as easily and provided to say for example a family's basement. Your food could be delivered into a larder room, which has refrigeration units, freezing units and dry stock units. Clothing could be sent to your wardrobe room, much like a closet, with built-in drawers, hanging racks, shoe racks.

Clothing manufacture is fairly automated at present. Might take about five to seven years for it to be complete.
Food processing is very nearly completely automated at present. Give it five years and it will be completely.

Rolling out full automation in these industries is not far off. And car manufacturing can be fully automated sooner. Surprised if Japan doesn't actually fully automated car production yet.

We could be a lot better off, I think. And in thinking it I feel The Venus Project holds a great deal of inspiration, if not flat out being worth just using it as it is. Why are people so afraid of not working tedious and dangerous work for shitty pay and conditions?

[Long Duck Dong]

You find it hilarious, Duckie, cos u parrot so much of the nice guff we find in the right wing media and we hear spouted out of the gobs of right wing politicians.. thats ok with me.. I don't mind that... their view is as valid as any I may have and their right, like your own to spout it...it is their and your point of view from their and your perspective... not a perspective with which I agree but thats what freedom of speech is about is it not?

Of course the victory matters Duckie.. what is the point of protesting if we don't want to win? And I agree there will be those who will be adversely affected by any victory.. all I can say to that is such is life.. sometimes it is regrettable and sometimes not.. it is not whether we affect people adversely or not.. it is whether or not we have right and justice on our side... that is invariably a subjective judgement but in a scrap between two opposing views what other kind is there? But it is not simply about the victory of any protest... it is about principle, justice, right, belief, cause.. the right thing to do and to strive for.. if we use the yardstick that no one will get hurt by our protest, we will do nothing..

I am unable to answer for how Greens act in New Zealand.. although I suspect there is a lot more to it than you make out.. by deflecting the arguments away from green issues is a red herring. No party is perfect and all act as idiots from time to time.. even on the narrow issues which brought about their rise in the first place. I have always argued that environmentalism and conservation costs.. costs will be born by ordinary citzens that is unavoidable for whether improvements are paid out of taxation or out of the pockets and bank accounts of ordinary citizens when improving property or whatever.. it is how it is... more.. it is how it should be and we should always remember that. Everything has to be paid for. It depends just how much we are prepared to pay doesn't it?

My mum's favourite sayin is "We get owt for nowt". I use it myself quite often.. and sometimes Duckie, grinning, bearing and coughing up for things is unavoidable...stopping the ruination of our world, a ruination brought upon it by human activity isn't something we have to do.. we can continue its rape and pay the price.. or we can seriously begin to pay the price of saving it in our long term interests and those who come after us.. . I know which I would rather pay.. and as far as we can, through both taxation AND out of our own income and savings as well as our time, it is a price both Kate and I as well as millions of others are glad to pay and are paying... the alternative is far too scary to think about.. the big problem we run into Duckie, is that far too often there are those of power and privilege who will do everything they can to make sure they pay nothing and even gain much, while others.. the overwhelming majority pay for the mistakes, wheezes and/or greed of that privileged, powerful few... and our politicians, many of whom are part of that bent gang of thieves have for decades been all to glad to help them out... and we ordinary,individually less privileged and less powerful suckers have always paid the price..

In the UK, we too have problems about first time buyers getting on the property market... . but the last people we want to go around blaming are the Greens... responsibility for that lies elsewhere..and on minimum wage, outsourcing abroad of jobs and industry, the last people we want to be blaming are the greens... implementation of a minimum wage in this country for instance has had no real effect on that.. that was going on long before we had a minimum wage and will continue if we abolish it... and dont blame the greens for Chinese or any other country's corporations taking over your farms or businesses.... even before the greens had any influence at all, great corporations from around the world were moving in and taking over both successful and failing business.... it is the nature of capitalism that does that and its need to continue extending its long arm and grubby paws to every nook and cranny on earth..

..and dont blame the greens for what happens when people physically abuse children.. I was never smacked, and shall never smack my own child.. I do believe in outlawing the physical punishment of children..it teaches children violence and fear little else.. I suggest you look more deeply into the problems of your society for the reasons why child death and abuse are on the increase in the same way I do my own...

I cannot say anything about the Greens opposing particular renewable energy projects without knowing the detail.. they oppose them here too sometimes... for it does happen that a project can be wrong for a particular location, and the environmental consequences outweigh any gains that might accrue.. doing something just to be seen to be doing something or because it seems a good idea and getting it wrong can be worse and more damaging than doing nothing. Hydro electric power is incredibly expensive in terms of land loss and potentially catastrophic to wild life and yes even farmers losing their livelihood. and sometimes whole towns and villages are submerged. I am not opposed in principle to hydro power but in the right place for the right reasons.. sometimes what are considered green projects are not green at all.... placing windfarms in the wrong locations can also have its adverse affects on habitat for wildlife whether on or of shore... saving the planet is not only about cleaning up the environment it is about conserving what we have as far as we are able.. we have to balance human need, and that of the flora and fauna of this world while trying to stop ourselves from making an ever bigger hash of it than we are doing..

...and dont blame the protestors for fucking things up or making them worse.. which is what you have been doing.. it is what you always do by your sniping.. try and think why protest happens, and whether there is justification for it.. protestors wont always get it right even if they win their fight.. sometimes they will stand on the toes of others and cause for them some hurt... that does not make the protest wrong.. I am not uncritical of protestors.. but at least I know whose side I am on and where my interests lie.. but protest is about making things better.. not how much a successful protest will cost or who will get hurt by it.. and I will say this also, Duckie.. several times in my life I have participated in protests and campaigns which were not in my personal interest.. they were quite the opposite.. but felt they were the right thing to do.. my conscience and principles would allow me to do no other.. if only more people would take that attitude our world would be a better place... sometimes we have to think of other people than just ousrselves.. I live my life by that.. it is who I am..

..and in answer to Tenni's original question, by knowing whose side I am on... there are no limits to the scope of peaceful protest.. from marches to occupations, lobbies of parliament, to strikes and civil disobedience and closing the down economic and activity of a nation.. there are no limits.. save that of not one protestor raising so much as a hand to any other person... what business or the authorities do in response to any protest is their affair...

.. you talk about protestors blaming everyone but themselves... I suggest, babes, that u look at your own posts on this one thread alone.. for it is just about all you done...

such is life ????? yeah fran, that single statement says it all.......

when protests cause issues like the nz housing crisis, the brain drain etc, that take away the basic human rights of people to have a income or a roof over their heads.... and people like you, that talk about the rights to protest and the adverse effects on people, as * such is life *, I seriously question why the hell you bother to claim that you care about the rights of people.....

you see, I will never own my own home now... I will not be in full time employment and I am like a large number of NZ'ers in that respect.... and we are not the victims of corporations, we are the people that lose our dreams cos people like you want to protest and say how much you care about our human rights etc etc... and then say * such is life * when it affects people like me adversely... and you go back to your home and your job and pat yourselves on the back cos you have done a good job of protesting and thats all that matters.....

its not the cost to yourself, its a matter of how much you are prepared to cost others, that is the difference between a protestor that cares about human rights.... and a protestor that cares about their own agenda

as you have said, its the victory that matters, and the cost to others ??? such is life......

[jamieknyc]

The point, however, is not whether you agree or disagree with the protestors.

Regardless of the content of the protest, the state cannot stop the protest but can only impose reasonable, content-neutral restrictions on the time, place and manner of protest that leave alternative means of communicating the protest message. That is true even if someone wants to conduct a hate march.

[darkeyes]

such is life ????? yeah fran, that single statement says it all.......

when protests cause issues like the nz housing crisis, the brain drain etc, that take away the basic human rights of people to have a income or a roof over their heads.... and people like you, that talk about the rights to protest and the adverse effects on people, as * such is life *, I seriously question why the hell you bother to claim that you care about the rights of people.....

you see, I will never own my own home now... I will not be in full time employment and I am like a large number of NZ'ers in that respect.... and we are not the victims of corporations, we are the people that lose our dreams cos people like you want to protest and say how much you care about our human rights etc etc... and then say * such is life * when it affects people like me adversely... and you go back to your home and your job and pat yourselves on the back cos you have done a good job of protesting and thats all that matters.....[
its not the cost to yourself, its a matter of how much you are prepared to cost others, that is the difference between a protestor that cares about human rights.... and a protestor that cares about their own agenda

as you have said, its the victory that matters, and the cost to others ??? such is life......

You take nothing from a word anyone else says except yourself... I said far far more than you make out.. but as usual you learn nothing... nothing I said is meant to be glib or flippant yet you make it out to be and that I care nought about any who may be affected adversely in the process.. because it is in your and your kinds interests to make it seem so.. we may have been born in the same country but sadly we are now as far apart in thought and ideal as we are in distance between us.. victory in any dispute is not all that matters.. but it does matter.. that is what I said Duckie.. not quite the flippant crap you make me out to have said... and cost to others? Read again what I said and and don't make me out to have said what I plainly have not.. as we protest and demonstrate, fight for that which we believe, people will often be adversely affected in the event of victory.. it is amost unavoidable. If we saw injustice or any wrong which needed correcting and we waited until no one was adversely affected.. we would sit and do nothing......That is what I said... not quite what you imply I said... it is not a matter of caring or not caring.. it is a matter of doing what our consciences tell us..about doing what we believe is right and just... and sometimes, there are those who need to be adversely affected..that is what Occupy is about..

..every question you ask and statement you make tells me that you think we should do nothing to upset the applecart.. especially when you are sitting on the bloody cart munching away at an apple... Typical of the right wing media hack or politician, capitalist banker or corporate chief executive.. you attack and blame quite the wrong people for the ills of our world... for the ills of your world... it oozes out of almost every word you write and criticism you make... I prefer to lay the blame at quite different feet...

[DuckiesDarling]

The know how, materials and technology exist to automate most of the stuff you put forward. Further, distribution could be automated as easily and provided to say for example a family's basement. Your food could be delivered into a larder room, which has refrigeration units, freezing units and dry stock units. Clothing could be sent to your wardrobe room, much like a closet, with built-in drawers, hanging racks, shoe racks.

Clothing manufacture is fairly automated at present. Might take about five to seven years for it to be complete.
Food processing is very nearly completely automated at present. Give it five years and it will be completely.

Rolling out full automation in these industries is not far off. And car manufacturing can be fully automated sooner. Surprised if Japan doesn't actually fully automated car production yet.

We could be a lot better off, I think. And in thinking it I feel The Venus Project holds a great deal of inspiration, if not flat out being worth just using it as it is. Why are people so afraid of not working tedious and dangerous work for shitty pay and conditions?

Problem is, Void, automation means loss of more jobs which will further hurt the economy. Now where does the food come that gets automatically delivered to a family's basement? Farmers certainly won't be around with the way things are going, more and more foreclosures on family farms that have lasted generations is going on now. You and I both know, Void, what is to live the hard side of life. We both know shit happens and sometimes there is no reason for it, it just does. Right now I know there is enough gold in Ft. Knox to pay off national debt and still be okay for the next century and a half, but if they use that gold there goes the security for the dollar. Roughly 130 billion US dollars is actually in circulation in the States, but over 260 billion is held in trust in other countries. Why? Because they trusted the stability of the dollar and the backing of the gold in the vault. If the world took out all those dollar bills and traded them back to the US then it would be in effect of calling in a loan for more than twice the money that is currently circulating.

The net worth of a person can be in the millions but how much cash does he actually have on him? It's all on computers now, it's just numbers on a screen. But without banks there would be no way to access those numbers to buy food, gas, clothes, the necessities.

So yeah automating things sounds great til you realize that some people have no ability to make their own clothes, they have no ability to hunt for food to put on the table, to raise a garden, they have no ability to be a self contained unit waiting for an automated delivery of food. The Venus Project sounds good in theory but will it really work? It will involve more than two people so you can bet the cooperation will not be 100% for 100% of the time to get things past the planning stage and into production.

But thanks for actually answering a question that was posed about having solutions rather than just pointing fingers at problems that we ALL know exist.

[jamieknyc]

Problem is, Void, automation means loss of more jobs which will further hurt the economy. Now where does the food come that gets automatically delivered to a family's basement? Farmers certainly won't be around with the way things are going, more and more foreclosures on family farms that have lasted generations is going on now. You and I both know, Void, what is to live the hard side of life. We both know shit happens and sometimes there is no reason for it, it just does. Right now I know there is enough gold in Ft. Knox to pay off national debt and still be okay for the next century and a half, but if they use that gold there goes the security for the dollar. Roughly 130 billion US dollars is actually in circulation in the States, but over 260 billion is held in trust in other countries. Why? Because they trusted the stability of the dollar and the backing of the gold in the vault. If the world took out all those dollar bills and traded them back to the US then it would be in effect of calling in a loan for more than twice the money that is currently circulating.
.

The dollar hasn't been backed by gold since 1933.

[DuckiesDarling]

And that means what to my post, Jamie? The money has been out there since well before 1933 and even though we no longer use "gold standard" the gold is still our nation's resource. And it doesn't change the fact that job loss is not going to improve the economy.

[jamieknyc]

And that means what to my post, Jamie? The money has been out there since well before 1933 and even though we no longer use "gold standard" the gold is still our nation's resource. And it doesn't change the fact that job loss is not going to improve the economy.

The gold standard was abandoned for a reason- because essentially arbitrary meaures of value don't make sense in a modern economy.

[DuckiesDarling]

Neither does decimating the economy by automating a work force.

[void()]

Problem is, Void, automation means loss of more jobs which will further hurt the economy. Now where does the food come that gets automatically delivered to a family's basement?

Automated hydroponic farm units and greenhouses as shown and discussed in the literature and videos of The Venus Project (http://www.thevenusproject.com/), which is what I mentioned. Thanks for respecting my views enough to not bother looking up three words in Google.

Farmers certainly won't be around with the way things are going, more and more foreclosures on family farms that have lasted generations is going on now. You and I both know, Void, what is to live the hard side of life. We both know shit happens and sometimes there is no reason for it, it just does.

No kidding. My step-father's dad had a 40 acre farm. He leased most of it out as pasture to another family, the Holstein (fictitious name) brothers in later years. He still kept roughly ten head for himself, mainly half a dozen Jersey milk cows. Sometimes he'd sire a cow up, we'd sell a geld after it was brought to market weight. The Holstein brothers also offered him half a beef each year, sometimes 'sipping up' and making it a whole, as gratitude for being allowed to lease.

That ended when he had a stroke, literally from working himself into it. Me and another 'step' cousin were always made to feel as natural grandchildren. All the grandchildren cried the day his farm was auctioned off to settle accounts, provide for grandmother to live on. The farm sits now rotting at its core as a family who has no desire to farm bought it. Why should they? They can get everything from the store in town five miles away.

Yeah, it's hard. A better way might exist if we take a few minutes and listen to some silly old fool who's been studying it all now for over sixty years, and he's built a prototype city. He can go no further until people start helping out. Helping out in this case means labor, money, willingness to learn. It means getting rid of all this shit out here. It means loving one another, respecting and giving dignity to each other.

Right now I know there is enough gold in Ft. Knox to pay off national debt and still be okay for the next century and a half, but if they use that gold there goes the security for the dollar.

Honey, this is seriously priceless. There is no gold in Ft. Knox, hasn't been since about 1934. Our current money is actually backed on land grants. But there's no more land and so, no more paper to back up paper. And yes this is all documented, recorded. Check out the U.S. government confiscating everyone's gold in 1933. Gold was bought at what government wanted to pay for it. Of course, I believe a stipulation in law exists which says they can't sell it for over 34 cents an ounce. May be wrong, I read a lot of various dry, boring, useless bits of history, facts, news ... all starts blurring together after a bit.

So yeah automating things sounds great til you realize that some people have no ability to make their own clothes, they have no ability to hunt for food to put on the table, to raise a garden, they have no ability to be a self contained unit waiting for an automated delivery of food. The Venus Project sounds good in theory but will it really work? It will involve more than two people so you can bet the cooperation will not be 100% for 100% of the time to get things past the planning stage and into production.

This is why, we adopt what the guy who created The Venus Project came up with. It's a really kinky idea. He says we need a resource based economy. But he further says we all have a right to all resources. This means everything you need or want is provided for, and probably by automated systems. He does not claim his idea is perfect though. There will bumps along the way if it's given a chance. But from what I've been absorbing of it, the idea and concept of The Venus Projects looks a hell of a lot better than what we got.

Suppose you like being a nurse, or a graphic designer. You could still do those. But imagine being to say one morning, "gee, I need some down time for me." You log into your home computer, it contacts your supervisor for you. Vacation is summarily arranged. Say you take off for six months, you been wanting to learn how to build rockets and there's an intense program at the city's central municipal building. You show up at the building and get transported to the moon, they train you to build rockets to 'get back home'. If it takes you longer than six months to get it, no big deal, you can still go back and be a nurse.

You're free to work all you want. Free to work at something you really love. Free to excel at it. But here's the kicker. You DO NOT need to work to provide for yourself or family. You can work to perhaps gain a few extra commodities, luxury items, wants. And there is no running out of resources. Our automated systems farm enough to grant surplus for the world. And we'll convert greener energies, solar, hydro, geothermal, wind, and a new one involving some form of quantum physics (way to technical for me to yet grasp, this guy is talking about molecule manipulation and making stuff out of quarks).

About the only ones out of work would be advertisers, as everyone could order what they needed from their home system, or at worst need to go to the municipal center to pick something up. And the transportation system he's created seems to infer that would take you all of two to five minutes. Frankly, I'd be happy to not need advertisers. Hey, satellite television without sponsors. Might actually get better television. Maybe twenty PBS stations, one especially for Mr. Rogers, in every language! :) Pardon the newspeak but Doubleplusgood that!

But, no. Please don't take a little time, look something up, explore, learn, grow. None of us need to adapt. Our great idea of money will save us all from an artificially induced sense of resource depletion. We will survive even as the rich cull us for eugenics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics) programs in the name of survival of the race. And, yeah I see that coming down the pipe unfortunately.

[DuckiesDarling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ZF2CYEC1g

yeah, there is gold in Ft. Knox. This is from the History Channel. I also know people who worked as cops at the vault. One day a patient was late because he had to fix a snafu where someone weighed incorrectly going out. There are very tight security measures in place and for a good reason.

Yes, in 1934 the Federal Reserve turned the gold over to the government and recieved certificates. But the Federal Reserve is not Ft. Knox.

[Long Duck Dong]

You take nothing from a word anyone else says except yourself... I said far far more than you make out.. but as usual you learn nothing... nothing I said is meant to be glib or flippant yet you make it out to be and that I care nought about any who may be affected adversely in the process.. because it is in your and your kinds interests to make it seem so.. we may have been born in the same country but sadly we are now as far apart in thought and ideal as we are in distance between us.. victory in any dispute is not all that matters.. but it does matter.. that is what I said Duckie.. not quite the flippant crap you make me out to have said... and cost to others? Read again what I said and and don't make me out to have said what I plainly have not.. as we protest and demonstrate, fight for that which we believe, people will often be adversely affected in the event of victory.. it is amost unavoidable. If we saw injustice or any wrong which needed correcting and we waited until no one was adversely affected.. we would sit and do nothing......That is what I said... not quite what you imply I said... it is not a matter of caring or not caring.. it is a matter of doing what our consciences tell us..about doing what we believe is right and just... and sometimes, there are those who need to be adversely affected..that is what Occupy is about..

..every question you ask and statement you make tells me that you think we should do nothing to upset the applecart.. especially when you are sitting on the bloody cart munching away at an apple... Typical of the right wing media hack or politician, capitalist banker or corporate chief executive.. you attack and blame quite the wrong people for the ills of our world... for the ills of your world... it oozes out of almost every word you write and criticism you make... I prefer to lay the blame at quite different feet...

fran, let me put it this way

when a renewable energy project is actioned by a energy company, with the result of new employment, reductions of energy costs, and replanting of forest areas, prevent of excess flooding costing millions of dollars..... thats a positive thing

when its people like the high classed lawer that is using his vast cash resources to organise protests that are costing millions of dollars and being dragged out for years, cos he and his buddies want to go fishing in the river..... then that is a protest

when people like the farmers ended up with 12 mill dollars worth of damage to property and lifestock, we still have no new jobs, the energy bills have more than doubled, etc... thats a fucking issue for the people in the area I live in.....

when the maoris protest with marchs for their rights in regard to land and compensation for wrong doing by the government of nz over the last 150 odd years...... thats a issue that needs to be sorted

when the government gives them 10's of billions of dollars in land and compensation including the sealord fisheries, at the expense of the whole of nz and results in cuts to essential services such as health, education etc etc
that is a compromise in favour of a group of people

when the same group is selling the land they were given as compensation, to foreign investors, corporations, shifting the cash to over seas investments, and the seal lord fisheries is now 50% owned and operated by the same group that are doing the catching of whales in the ocean..... then the same people blame the government for not funding maori services and looking after the maori people at the cost of the rest of NZ, that is a fuckin issue

when the mining company wanted to do a open cast mine that would result in a big cash injection into the nz economy, create close to 2k new jobs, benefit a region with high unemployment, do extensive reforestation and land reclaimation, that is of vast benefit to nz'ers

when the greenies and their friends fight tooth and nail against it cos they want to walk thru the forest ( most of them have never been near the area, or even in the south island ) that it will look terrible if you view it from a space ship, like the mines in aussie that are 10 times larger than the planned mine in NZ.... thats a issue

when a mining disaster cost the lives of 29 people last year, cos it was a closed mine, we have lost the other miners to australia, its cost the country over 15 mill dollars and its totally destroyed the towns economy, possibly turning it into a ghost town......


there are a few examples of protests in NZ that have cost jobs, lives, crippled people financially, caused the brain drain ( loss of trained professionals to other countries ) the housing crisis, the closing of schools and limiting of health care options for people, resulted in the possible sale of much of a lot of assets to over seas corporations ( the same thing the greenies oppose BTW ).......

its people like the maoris and the greens party, that have been involved in many of the protests, that want the government to increase wages and benefits for people in NZ so people can survive........ they protested for what they wanted, got what they wanted, now they are protesting the results of what they wanted and blaming the government for it all.....

meanwhile its the taxpayers of nz that have carried the burden and gone without so much and suffered so much.....and to see these people out on the streets again, protesting the government for not doing enuf for the people of NZ cos nz is suffering as a result of giving them what they wanted when they protested.....

if that is not a good enuf reason to be pissed off with some protestors, I do not know what is........ but remarks like such is life, is a lil offensive to people like me that have had to carry the burden cos of people that think their way is better and the only way

the issues in NZ do not affect you, in the same way the issues in britain do not affect me,... but the occupy movement in the US has the potential to start a chain of events that would shift the world economy to the point that it could bring the world economy to its knees and cost everybody

I am not saying not to go after the corporations, but the occupy movement need to bear in mind that their actions could result in another world recession, and with countries already on the verge of going under, it would be the straw that breaks the camels back.....

I am sick to death of people like the protestors that have pushed their own tunnel visioned agenda in NZ, cost lives, crippled the NZ economy, opposed the same thing they protested for in the first place, then blamed the government for the results of it.... yeah I will blame the protestors cos they refused to listen

btw, news article in NZ today, greens party members found to have defaced over 700 election posters of the national party, as we come up to a election.... the same greenies party that talk about treating all people equally, respect for life and property, and basic equal rights for all..... the same greens party members that opposed the mining, support the maori land claims and oppose the renewable energy project in my area......

now try telling me about the greenies.......

[tenni]

Early this morning (1 am) New York city Liberty Square (Zicotti Park) was taken over by the police and the protestors were cleared out.

http://occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/

http://www.ustream.tv/TheOther99

3:36 a.m. Kitchen tent reported teargassed. Police moving in with zip cuffs.
3:33 a.m. Bulldozers moving in
3:16 a.m. Occupiers linking arms around riot police
3:15 a.m. NYPD destroying personal items. Occupiers prevented from leaving with their possessions.
3:13 a.m. NYPD deploying sound cannon
3:08 a.m. heard on livestream: "they're bringing in the hoses."
3:05 a.m. NYPD cutting down trees in Liberty Square
2:55 a.m. NYC council-member Ydanis RodrÃ*guez arrested and bleeding from head.
2:44 a.m. Defiant occupiers barricaded Liberty Square kitchen
2:44 a.m. NYPD destroys OWS Library. 5,000 donated books in dumpster.
2:42 a.m. Brooklyn Bridge confirmed closed
2:38 a.m. 400-500 marching north to Foley Square
2:32 a.m. All subways but R shut down
2:29 a.m. Press helicopters evicted from airspace. NYTimes reporter arrested.
2:22 a.m. Frontpage coverage from New York Times
2:15 a.m. Occupiers who have been dispersed are regrouping at Foley Square
2:10 a.m. Press barred from entering Liberty Square
2:07 a.m. Pepper spray deployed -- reports of at least one reporter sprayed
2:03 a.m. Massive Police Presence at Canal and Broadway
1:43 a.m. Helicopters overhead.
1:38 a.m. Unconfirmed reports of snipers on rooftops.
1:34 a.m. CBS News Helicopter Livestream
1:27 a.m. Unconfirmed reports that police are planning to sweep everyone.
1:20 a.m. Subway stops are closed.
1:20 a.m. Brooklyn bridge is closed.
1:20 a.m. Occupiers chanting "This is what a police state looks like."
1:20 a.m. Police are in riot gear.
1:20 a.m. Police are bringing in bulldozers.

[darkeyes]

If there is another world recession, as seems increasingly likely.. it will not be because of anything Occupy or any other protest movement do or have done, and it will not be as a result of anything the Greens do or have done... the responsibility for that plainly lies elsewhere.. and if there is another recession, it is likely that governments will have much more to occupy themselves in the way of protest that is currently the case... because, as is always the case in recession.. it will be the ordinary people, those in work, the unemployed, the disabled and the sick, children and mothers, the elderly, who will be told that they must pay the price...

[tenni]

Another world recession!!!:eek:

OMG What is going to happen to the poor 1%????????????:tong:;):eek:

Hopefully, the right wing will be able to protect them from the lowly masses.

[darkeyes]

Early this morning (1 am) New York city Liberty Square (Zicotti Park) was taken over by the police and the protestors were cleared out.

http://occupywallst.org/article/nypd-raiding-liberty-square/

http://www.ustream.tv/TheOther99

3:36 a.m. Kitchen tent reported teargassed. Police moving in with zip cuffs.
3:33 a.m. Bulldozers moving in
3:16 a.m. Occupiers linking arms around riot police
3:15 a.m. NYPD destroying personal items. Occupiers prevented from leaving with their possessions.
3:13 a.m. NYPD deploying sound cannon
3:08 a.m. heard on livestream: "they're bringing in the hoses."
3:05 a.m. NYPD cutting down trees in Liberty Square
2:55 a.m. NYC council-member Ydanis RodrÃ*guez arrested and bleeding from head.
2:44 a.m. Defiant occupiers barricaded Liberty Square kitchen
2:44 a.m. NYPD destroys OWS Library. 5,000 donated books in dumpster.
2:42 a.m. Brooklyn Bridge confirmed closed
2:38 a.m. 400-500 marching north to Foley Square
2:32 a.m. All subways but R shut down
2:29 a.m. Press helicopters evicted from airspace. NYTimes reporter arrested.
2:22 a.m. Frontpage coverage from New York Times
2:15 a.m. Occupiers who have been dispersed are regrouping at Foley Square
2:10 a.m. Press barred from entering Liberty Square
2:07 a.m. Pepper spray deployed -- reports of at least one reporter sprayed
2:03 a.m. Massive Police Presence at Canal and Broadway
1:43 a.m. Helicopters overhead.
1:38 a.m. Unconfirmed reports of snipers on rooftops.
1:34 a.m. CBS News Helicopter Livestream
1:27 a.m. Unconfirmed reports that police are planning to sweep everyone.
1:20 a.m. Subway stops are closed.
1:20 a.m. Brooklyn bridge is closed.
1:20 a.m. Occupiers chanting "This is what a police state looks like."
1:20 a.m. Police are in riot gear.
1:20 a.m. Police are bringing in bulldozers.

One of my less progressive more lackey like colleagues gleefully told me of this when I got to school this morning.. he now has very well bashed ears...

On a more cheerful note Kate who works close by, saw this lil session. Even her boss who is no supporter of Occupy stayed around and listened. Am a big fan of Billy Bragg... even if he did once break me specs...

http://local.stv.tv/edinburgh/news/27448-billy-bragg-backs-occupy-edinburgh-campaigners-with-impromptu-gig/

[tenni]

Within 24 to 48 hours, I suspect the same will happen in Vancouver and Toronto. Any predictions about London & Edinburgh?

Rumour is that they will allow protestors back into the park but not with camping gear?

I suspect that the local right wing will be speaking soon on this site...;):bigrin:

a nice quote from the Edinburg article on Bragg

“The demographic of this camp is really, really interesting, because it moves from 19 or 20 year olds to people who are in their seventies. As a movement we span that whole age range. Billly Bragg helps to seamlessly span people from my generation - I’m 46 - to people who are nearer 21."

[darkeyes]

Within 24 to 48 hours, I suspect the same will happen in Vancouver and Toronto. Any predictions about London & Edinburgh?

Rumour is that they will allow protestors back into the park but not with camping gear?

I suspect that the local right wing will be speaking soon on this site...;):bigrin:

None Tenni.. there are no moves planned to break up any camps in the UK that I am aware of... lots of chatter and discussion between the authorities and protestors about what to do over the Christmas and New Year hols but other than that no... but who knows what people cook up behind closed doors?

[Long Duck Dong]

If there is another world recession, as seems increasingly likely.. it will not be because of anything Occupy or any other protest movement do or have done, and it will not be as a result of anything the Greens do or have done... the responsibility for that plainly lies elsewhere.. and if there is another recession, it is likely that governments will have much more to occupy themselves in the way of protest that is currently the case... because, as is always the case in recession.. it will be the ordinary people, those in work, the unemployed, the disabled and the sick, children and mothers, the elderly, who will be told that they must pay the price...

as a human being and part of society, I tend to view my actions as being a part of the over all current world events...
I mean i have a computer ( made by a corporation ) that runs microcrap ( another corporation ) I use the net, ( created by another corporation ) and use my common sense, to see that most of my daily life involves working with different things created by corporations, so even my 1/ 100 billionth of a % is still me being actively involved in assisting the corporations to exist....

any person that is using any aspect of technology etc created by a corporation, is in effect enabling them to be the huge ass corporations that they are.....

that includes the occupy movement, that are using corporation created cars, phones etc etc etc....so we are all part of the problem that currently exists

now to address your remark about how if a world recession happens again ( we have just managed to avoid a world market crash yet again and if greece goes down, it will fuck the markets anyway ) that it will not be cos of anything that occupy has done..... reads to me like you saying that occupy are not doing anything anyway other than hog park space and bitch about corporations.....

maybe I am wrong, but I have not heard much else from the occupy sites other than excuses, complains and the usual * the cops are bastards * statements, which appears to be a standard response by protestors to anything that the police do..... so that leads me to believe that you may be correct, that if a world recession happens, it will have nothing to do with the fact that a group of people are hogging parks and complaining......sorry protesting..... no wait complaining.... protesting is about getting change....

however my remark was in regards to IF <<< see that ?? IF change happens as a result of occupy demands for change ( the ones that we have not seen ) it could impact heavily and lead to a disastrous result for everybody......

as for who will pay the price... well at this stage, its already the small business owners, the people that want to use the parks, the taxpayers etc etc... that are already shouldering the cost...... the cost of what????

since the occupy movement are not protesting ( standing for change ) they must be a group of people hogging park space to complain in a illegal occupy that is breaching many cities bylaws etc etc... complaining when they are moved along, cos they refuse to move otherwise....

so your point is semi valid, its the elderly, the infirm, the young, the old, the rich, the poor... hell anybody that pays taxes or uses the parks, that are already paying the price for the occupy movements actions.....

how is that benefitting anybody ???

[darkeyes]

It benefits everybody because it keeps alive the right to protest for a start.. as a legitimate part of the democratic way.. and paying for democracy is something we have to accept..freedom of speech and expression do not come free.. there is a price that we all must pay..

..and if change happens as a result of Occupy, like any change it will be imperfect, but it will be aimed at making things better.. there is one thing that politicians of all parties tell us and it is one thing about which they are even sometimes right... not right as often as they tell us but it does have some truth in it.. no pain no gain.. sometimes Duckie..pain is needed to make things better for us all in the longer term.. and if ever the world is to better itself by changing the economic system completely, or even merely making the radical changes to the capitalist system needed to make it less rapacious, there may have to be some pain shared by all before things get better.. certainly there would be a fair bit of pain suffered by the getts who presently run the system as we know it... which is more than is happening now...

There is no intention of forcing us back into the stone age.. which is what you and a few others seem to make out.. merely make us, and more especially the capitalist elite more responsible in how we live in this world.. we may have to accept less, and change our ways, and we may not like that much.. but in the longer term interests of planet and species, I doubt there is too much alternative.. but we accept change, and less for our long term benefit and for our survival.. not the short, medium and long term benefit of a very few greedy bankers and other assorted capitalists and privileged bigwigs which throws any prosperity and survival prospects we may have into serious doubt... we are already suffering because of what they have done and are doing..... and we are going to suffer worse yet.. ordinary people are expected to do almost all the suffering.. as they usually are...

The status quo or a return to what went before the crash is not an option.. that is in part what Occupy is about.. trying to ensure that all this suffering and contraction is not simply a waste and to change the world to prevent a future repeat once things do pick up..assuming Duckie me luffly that it will.....

[Long Duck Dong]

It benefits everybody because it keeps alive the right to protest for a start.. as a legitimate part of the democratic way.. and paying for democracy is something we have to accept..freedom of speech and expression do not come free.. there is a price that we all must pay..

..and if change happens as a result of Occupy, like any change it will be imperfect, but it will be aimed at making things better.. there is one thing that politicians of all parties tell us and it is one thing about which they are even sometimes right... not right as often as they tell us but it does have some truth in it.. no pain no gain.. sometimes Duckie..pain is needed to make things better for us all in the longer term.. and if ever the world is to better itself by changing the economic system completely, or even merely making the radical changes to the capitalist system needed to make it less rapacious, there may have to be some pain shared by all before things get better.. certainly there would be a fair bit of pain suffered by the getts who presently run the system as we know it... which is more than is happening now...

There is no intention of forcing us back into the stone age.. which is what you and a few others seem to make out.. merely make us, and more especially the capitalist elite more responsible in how we live in this world.. we may have to accept less, and change our ways, and we may not like that much.. but in the longer term interests of planet and species, I doubt there is too much alternative.. but we accept change, and less for our long term benefit and for our survival.. not the short, medium and long term benefit of a very few greedy bankers and other assorted capitalists and privileged bigwigs which throws any prosperity and survival prospects we may have into serious doubt... we are already suffering because of what they have done and are doing..... and we are going to suffer worse yet.. ordinary people are expected to do almost all the suffering.. as they usually are...

The status quo or a return to what went before the crash is not an option.. that is in part what Occupy is about.. trying to ensure that all this suffering and contraction is not simply a waste and to change the world to prevent a future repeat once things do pick up..assuming Duckie me luffly that it will.....

with any protest, it incurs costs to the taxpayer.... something you completely sidestepped, as the answer is, it doesn't benefit anybody, it penalises them cos of the actions of the protestors..... something I believe that you have said in past threads, as justified and unavoidable........

the extra police and security personnel have to be paid, the extra money to pay them comes out of a budget, that leaves less funds for other areas....

the small businesses that are relying on a regular income basis, are not seeing that income base, so they have to either make up the short fall or limit what they can offer to consumers....

based around what i have read, its many small businesses that actually protested the protestors and indirectly led to the police action against the protests... thats the power of protest, and a good victory, wouldn't you say fran ???

thats the voice of small businesses saying, you are costing us money that you are not replacing yourselves..... you have the right to protest, I have the right to not have my business disrupted.......

now its to make things better ??? how ?? where ?? in what way ??? again you can not answer my question..... as in order to make a stand to make things better, you have to have a change of direction that you are putting forward as your vision of how your changes will make things better.... so far there has been no real statement by occupy as to what changes they want...... so once again you have not answered my question. merely sidestepped it.....

so all i am seeing from you, is not a single actual answer but the same regurgitated BS I have heard from so many protests in NZ about how the future will be better when the changes or compromises are place in place or actioned..... then we got things like the housing crisis, the brain drain, the energy crisis etc...... and then we hear the same bs you are rolling out.... its not the protestors fault, they didn't do it....

well fran, they did, they protested for their better future, it never happened, they blamed other people immediately for the fact their brillant idea never worked, the reverse happened.......

so instead of reading from the protestors bible, how about you tell me where the community and businesses are benefitting from the loss of income, the extra expenditure of taxpayers money etc etc..... and what the list of changes are that the occupy movement want.... cos the bs about there has to be loss in order for gain etc etc, is BS I constantly hear...... in the same way I hear about the heavy handed police force etc etc

btw according to the reports, zucotti park is back open and the protestors told they can return, like they were told in the first place.... the *heavy handed police * had to remove the peaceful / non violence protestors that refused to move their asses so the park could be cleared up......

I was watching the streamlive link with the mobile live feed and the protestor talking about watching protestors letting down the tyres on police cars, jumping on them, pushing and shoving the police and trying to hit them etc etc..... I am curious.... is the damage to the police cars part of the benefits to the community and the taxpayers as well.... or just part of the cost of protesting that we all have to face and share, as part of the fight for rights and democracy etc......

I am not sure about you, but I never felt the need to dent police cars as part of the fight for the civil union bill in NZ..... I guess we do not have heavy handed police cars that are siding with the evil bankers, corporations and government...... but i know that if I did that, and got arrested, i would not be blaming the police car for my actions and nor would i expect other people to foot the bill

[darkeyes]

I sidestepped nothing... I said "It benefits everybody because it keeps alive the right to protest for a start.. as a legitimate part of the democratic way.. and paying for democracy is something we have to accept..freedom of speech and expression do not come free.. there is a price that we all must pay..". Now behave yourself u daft bugger take in what people say to you.

Protest has made things better for ordinary people since almost the beginning of time... how else do u think u have a vote? How else do u think we live in democracies and not still under divine right of King and endure feudalism or worse? How else have working people achieved safer work conditions and some semblance of a decent life? Why is it that governments often have to back down when people say no in between elections? Why else do we have decent health services and for all their problems education provison for all of our young people? Why is the western world slowly awaking to the desperate state of our planet? What has saved in my country at least, forests and moorland, countryside being built upon needlessly, forced governments and corporations to tread a little more carefully in the face of determined opposition to what they think and what they do? Why else do we have laws to combat racism, and homophobia? How do u think homosexuality became legalised? I could go on and on... the ballot box often gives governments the mandate to implement their policies, but it is demonstration and protest which has substantially modified and made party policy evolve and bring those policies into being in the first place..

Many protests began with no clear idea of objective.. what is known as the English Civil War is one such.. God forbid things go that far but in the end, that original protest achieved and indeed ultimately surpassed its very limited and vague vision, just as did Jenny Geddes when she threw the Book of Common Prayer at the Dean of the Edinburgh High Kirk around the same time, little could she or anyone else realise just what that protest was a catalyst of.. ultimately both very vague protests signalled the the end of Divine Right, and played their part in making not just the UK what it is today, but also the US, Australia, Canada, New Zealnd and many other countries... dont tell me that vague protest has no value.. history proves you wrong.. without those vague protests bck in the early years of the 17th century it is quite possible that democracy as we know it would not exist.. if at all...

I can say nothing about what has happened in New York because I have seen nothing about it as yet.. I do not and have never supported violence of any kind.. but I can understand frustration.. but whether there was violence by demonstrator or police isnt relevant to what u have said.. protest is important and protest does bring about change and protest has made our lives better.. how we live is evidence of that.. history documents it and u are a fool if u deny it.. and don't try and put words in my mouth.. I condemn violence wherever it comes from and whomsoever is responsible..

..I accept entirely that Occupy has no clear or unified idea of what they want.. greater regulation of a more caring capitalism in the US, probably more socialism in Europe and farther afield.. if u want to know what I want u just have to think back to things I have said in the past.. but I doubt we are even close to that.. I doubt the world is quite ready for the Fran vision of a socialist democracy where power resides at the bottom and capitalism is but a distant unpleasant memory..but what Occupy is and why it is important, it chips away at the fabric of unfettered, rapacious capitalism and brings the day closer when our world isnt controlled by the wants and needs of a few rather unpleasant greedy bastards..My vision of the world may never come to pass.. we dont know how it will pan out.. but what is certain is that if humanity survives long enough, it will devise a system of economics which is a fucking sight better than the one we endure now.. it will be an economic system for all of humanity and the world.. not just for a few hundred thousand economic parasites and social rapists out of a population of 7 billion.

And with the shopkeepers and small businesses and so on making their own protest? That's what protest is about in a democratic society.. from their point of view probably, a good vistory too.. maybe not from mine huh?,We will never like or approve every protest, but we have to accept the rights of those with whom we disagree to have the same rights as us to do so... but isnt it strange how there are those who have been adversely affected by those small business people's protests? Unavoidable.. regrettable.. but that me luffly is the nature and consequences of protest.. but then the adversly affected in this case dont count do they? U dont approve...

[tenni]

At this moment, eviction notices are being handed out to Occupy Toronto people to vacate St. James Park by midnight. Every tent has had a notice placed on it.

This morning there was a march to a site owned by the Brookfield (real estate?) company (the same company that owns New York's Ziccotti Park is). The police were escorting them to and from the Toronto St. James park when some marchers became angry and a minor skirmish broke out between the police and two or three protestors.

There is discussion about getting an injunction against the city. Tweeting has happened asking people to come to St. James park. It is expected that there will be a lot more people in the park at midnight. There is a meeting of protestors at noon spread via twitter.

Arguments have been made as to why the park needs to be vacated including draining the sprinkler system for winter and neighbouring businesses complained.

Questions are being asked publicly about St. James Church which owns some of the park since the church has stated that they have no problem with the protestors. What will happen if a large number go to the church property when the police arrive to evict?

Post script: I didn't catch the criteria that this is to stop camping in the park and no people in the park between 12 am - 5 am(or 6 not sure). It doesn't stop assembly but the length of time. Others have argued that it might be more effective to boycott via Facebook etc. the large companies/corporations. I'm not sure about that idea but it has worked in the past. I wonder if things have become more complicated to locate the head corporation etc.?

[12voltman59]

Thought this might be of interest to some http://www.democracynow.org/2011/11/15/top_aide_to_oakland_mayor_resigns

It always gets me---going back in history to the "wars" back in the early 20th century in the coal mines, steel mills, and factories for workers to organize for better pay, working conditions, etc----the cops have always played the role of publicly paid for thugs to protect the big money interests---one of the truly negative aspects of being a cop I think---by using force against their fellow citizens.

I would like to ask those cops---"Do you really think those people who sit in the fancy conference rooms and offices on the top floors of those office towers really give a rat's ass about you and your families?? As long as you are a good boy or girl doing unquestionably doing their bidding--they tolerate you---but question them and they hate you too."

It does seem that the word is in from the "big wigs" that they are tired of the riff-raff being uppity and questioning them, so we see what does seem to be a coordinated effort across the country to shut the Occupy protests down ASAP.

As the former legal adviser in Oakland said in the piece----that may turn out to be a strategy that will backfire on the powerbrokers.

[darkeyes]

... just as did Jenny Geddes when she threw the Book of Common Prayer at the Dean of the Edinburgh High Kirk around the same time...

soz .. rereadin this its, not quite rite.. she threw a stool at the Dean when he tried to read from the new Book of Common Prayer which was being imposed on Scots presbyterians along with a greater degree of Anglicanism.. she took a dim view.. an the gud Edinburgers rioted.. so began a chain of events which led to Scottish participation in the "English" Civil War..

[Diva667]

LDD, you mentioned how the greenies are doing all these things to hurt employment, yet you do not mention how corporations, left unchecked, despoil the living conditions of all of us.

RE:http://blizog.info/assets/images/posted/1317321385.5285.jpg

The picture above is tap water that has been set on fire. The reason the tap water burns is due to fracking in PA.

Corporations have no soul, they care not a whit for you or me, but only for the profits they can create.

One (of many) reasons OWS has begun is due to the supreme court's ruling that corporations should enjoy the same rights as people with regard to free speech.

The other reason is the out of balance nature of the economy as it stands. Corporations have moved jobs from here to other places where they can literally get away with murder due to lack of regulations. regulations that are designed to protect the health and welfare of those who work for them and live in communities where they exist.

Protest is (and always has been ) a right of the people. It is one way to effect change, when other avenues have been exhausted. Right now, without change we will become, in effect , slaves to the corporations.

Now, I'm not saying corporations are evil. But neither are they good. They are what they are , they have no soul , they are not a person.

[12voltman59]

LDD, you mentioned how the greenies are doing all these things to hurt employment, yet you do not mention how corporations, left unchecked, despoil the living conditions of all of us.

RE:http://blizog.info/assets/images/posted/1317321385.5285.jpg

The picture above is tap water that has been set on fire. The reason the tap water burns is due to fracking in PA.

Corporations have no soul, they care not a whit for you or me, but only for the profits they can create.

One (of many) reasons OWS has begun is due to the supreme court's ruling that corporations should enjoy the same rights as people with regard to free speech.

The other reason is the out of balance nature of the economy as it stands. Corporations have moved jobs from here to other places where they can literally get away with murder due to lack of regulations. regulations that are designed to protect the health and welfare of those who work for them and live in communities where they exist.

Protest is (and always has been ) a right of the people. It is one way to effect change, when other avenues have been exhausted. Right now, without change we will become, in effect , slaves to the corporations.

Now, I'm not saying corporations are evil. But neither are they good. They are what they are , they have no soul , they are not a person.


A great post Diva---I could not agree more with most of what you said--but sorta have to disagree with ya on corporations not being evil----they may not be evil in a pure sense--but it does seem that the way we have set up corporations in our culture--the process of the development of a corporation seems to have a corrupting and corrosive effect--first that by law--at least in US law---the main goal of a corporation is to make a profit and bring the highest possible return to those who invest in those companies.

I wish that back when we started the idea of corporations, we had added another prime factor to the equation----that not only would corporations make money----they would have to do so in a way that is a "win-win" for all involved---that instead of pure profit being the motive--along with making quality products that people want to buy---that in making the products---the least amount of harm would be done to the environment and to people---and that people who work for the company would be fairly compensated, have decent working conditions and such.

While some enlightened owners did start out with those other goals in mind---most didn't and they came to basically hate their workers----so many companies cared more about the machinery used in production than they did about their workers--back in the early days of the coal mines----the owners were more concerned with the conditions and health of the mules they used to pull coal carts and such than they were about those same things for the miners with the coal company owners because it cost them more to buy and house mules than it did to hire and keep workers.

Another "evil" aspect about corporations to my mind----it has so often been the case that many companies that started out being privately owned and had a benevolent attitude in the making of their product and treating their employees with respect by paying them well/having safe working conditions, offering a quality product with quality service, were good neighbors and contributors in the places they had offices and plants---but once they became a corporation-----they were often taken over by other companies that didn't care for such niceties or the new corporate management style came into being that was only concerned with the bottom line and all other considerations being secondary at best.

There have been many a great company offering great products and services, did right by their employees, were good actors and all the positive things I mentioned that once they incorporated---that was the beginning of the end for them.

I do think that in many ways---corporations are "evil entities."

A PS: I amending that last sentence to say that I think that corporations can certainly be "EVILISH!"

[sammie19]

I am watching C4 News and they have just announced that the City of London are going to court to have the London camp closed down. I heard the spokesman for the council say riot police may be used but I didn't take in what he meant.

[jamieknyc]

At the moment, a court hearing is under way on whether the City has to allow the protestors back into Zuccotti Park. I will let you know the result as soon as I hear it.

[love1234]

Yes, that limit is when it impunes upon the rights of other citizens.

Public land is the constitutional and god given property of the public and no group should be able to unlawfully block access or use of that land from other members of the public. These occupiers are often taking that right away from ordinary citizens, and are acting in contrary to the public's right to assembly.

This is especially so in Democratic countires like Canada. These People can Vote and change this country, if they were to get off their ass and actually work to make change rather then rally uselessly.

They do not represent 99%, because they didn't get 99% of the vote in order to claim any such nonsense, however we do have leaders who gained a majority of the votes and do in fact represent the population.

And if we think they don't then we can easily and simply just vote them out of office.

Don't think so? Well the Occupy Vancouver group in BC claim to represent 99% of the people, yet I don't recall voting for any hippy. And what are they protesting for, the people in BC, the real 99%, have just proved earlier this year that the democratic system works when the province made an unpopular tax law the real 99% filed a petition, gathering signatures and forcing the tax law to go to a referendum and then voting it out, all done by ordinary citizens, the 99% masses.

So who do the Occupy protesters represent? An abnoxious minority who are breaking the laws and wasting taxpayers money, with girls dying of drug overdoses in the occupy vancouver encampment and blocking a public venue from being used by the real 99%, familys and ordinary people.

If they realy represented the 99%, then why don't they run in the municiple ellections going on across the province? or the upcoming Provential ellections?

I will tell you why,

BECAUSE THE REAL 99% WON'T VOTE FOR DIRTY HIPPIES!

Democracy (demon-crazy, mob rule) is a con. There is no solution to problems in a poli-many, ticks bloodsuckers (demon-crazy bloodsucking) system.

"Democracy is supposed to be the rule of the majority. Government of the majority of the people, for the majority of the people, by the majority of the people.

Let us now compare the smooth deceptive definition, to stark reality.

In the western world approximately 95% of the wealth is possessed by approximately 5% of the people. That means, using these same figures, that 95% of the people, the overwhelming majority, possess only 5% of the wealth.

The politicians would have us all believe that this is the will of the majority. That is the politician's idea of what they call democracy.

When did the 95% of people, the overwhelming majority, ever vote for the right for themselves to be poor and vote for the tiny 5% minority to possess their own (the poor people's) share of the nation's wealth, that the poor majority's ancestors have fought and died to protect?

The Ruler of the Universe has prohibited democracy because He knew that the rich would use it and other means to deceive and rip everyone else off; keep the majority down and poor; just as He wrote, via His Prophets in The Bible". J.A Hill

God prohibited the writing of laws and economic policies by humans, in order to protect the majority from abuse, and oppression created under the home-made laws of the rich and powerful. The punishment for writing laws is death.

"Many people can see the Democracy (demon-crazy) Deception and refuse to vote, so the wily politicians made-up special rules to allow themselves to rule using only a majority of the votes, even when the number of people who vote is only a minority of the population. How can that possibly be conceived to be the rule of the majority? Of course it is not the rule of the majority; it is a confidence-trick.

A young child viewing a puppet show will sit happily entranced and fascinated by the animated, talking marionettes, believing that they are very much alive and real. One day, when the child is older, and sees the strings attached to the puppets for the very first time, the illusion is forever shattered. The child will always know that hidden hands control the lifeless puppets.

Most people living today have advanced into adulthood without ever having known of, or seen, the hidden hands controlling their systems of money, taxation, public education and social reform. The nearly invisible strings attached to the marionettes are well concealed, and the marionettes themselves - politicians; religious leaders; heads of colleges, scientists, foundations and think-tanks; media moguls and other officials held in general-esteem by the people - act so lifelike as to blend perfectly with their audience.

For the adult, the "Virtual Puppet-theatre" is the controlled space between their ears. The space within which their belief-system can be manipulated - held entranced and fascinated - by puppet-masters directing cleverly crafted plays, dramas and crises, the plots to which the audience is told will unfold to their general benefit and to the endings which have already been written.

Invisible strings called beliefs rise up to hidden hands holding global-wealth and power. As long as the illusion can be maintained, the audience can be held spellbound. For them, the show is their reality.

Until, one day - they see the strings." J.A.Hill

[love1234]

This thread has nothing to do with VietNam and vets from that "situation". If you won't start your own thread maybe I should start one for those who wish to discuss fifty year old wars & protests etc.:(

Today, someone that I know posted this video on Facebook about the Occupy group near my city entering a bank yesterday(Saturday). They were disrupting the daily activity of the bank but not too much as I notice that they were actually in the anteroom before people are lined up to do their banking. Banks are regulated more in Canada than the US(not sure about Britain). Canadian banks didn't need a bailout a few years back from the Canadian Government etc. In fact, they have continued to make good profits throughout the recession(s) as I recall. Certainly, they are making profits now yet the average depositor makes dick all on any money that they place in these banks. User fees etc. must be the way the banks are still rolling in profits?

I'm not sure if the claims of these protestors are correct.(Banks owe Canadian billions in taxes). I also felt a bit uncomfortable with the chant that "we are the 99%) I'm not sure that these particular protestors really represent 99% but it is a good chant...:bigrin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yFlipMnyJY&feature=player_embedded

Usury is used by the few to enslave nations. Usury is used by the few to enslave nations and their people.

[jamieknyc]

Since my last post, the court has denied a temporary restraining order allowing tents in Zuccotti Park.

[tenni]

It has just been announced that Occupy Toronto has a stay (or?) of eviction and so there will be no eviction action tonight. However, the judge also placed something to the ruling that no one else may enter the park. There is a rally planned for 11 pm tonight though and this includes labour groups. Some have left not wanting to get a criminal record for staying. Other words are that the police will not take action until Friday after many warnings. City council has been cut out of the decision but many councillors agree with the eviction. There is a lot of news coverage as this progresses.

[void()]

LDD ========> Here You Go (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OWS+Demands)

Of course, yelling "go home you dirty fucking hippies", is far easier than taking a moment, reading and listening. Also, stating it is the fault of individuals they have no jobs, when in fact corporations have realized they can downsize employees and gain more profit, is easier.

There is further a trend in America, employers do not want to hire people over forty years old either. These employees would require more upkeep, insurance, benefits and such. Employers might also need to retrain them, and despite on the job training not costing much if at all, employers state retraining would mean more overhead costs.

And employers frown upon people like me. I'm not mainstream and prefer being a freethinking person. And yes, I accept responsibility and accountability. Also suffer from depression at times and anxiety because of several valid reasons. One of which is the 'at will' clause in most employer's applications for employment. It means they are free to terminate my employment for any reason or no reason, and I need not know why the termination was caused. Yes, employers do let people go.

Never mind also the great "War on Terrorism", which as far as i know was wholly illegal as congress never declared an act of war. It also only served to create more possible enemies for The United States, at home and abroad. Further, one of the Executive Orders left by previous POTUS states the Arny First Battalion is to patrol the United States, routing out insurgents and suspected 'enemy combatants'. This military unit is authorized to use whatever force it deems needed to accomplish its mandate. This Executive Order has not been receded. We did have an amendment which made the use of military force on our own shores, and against our own people illegal.

As it stands, America herself could be seen as a battlefield. These are not excuses, rather they are statements of fact as to how things exist. This status qou is fully wrong and yet it is easier to not listen when people come forward to open a dialog.

And something on PBS now, Newshour reminding me I need a dentist. Had my upper teeth removed almost a decade ago. Got an economy upper plate denture. Wore it despite it being ill-fit, and breaking my lower teeth. Have some lowers left but they are going bad. No insurance, only the wife working at a minimum wage job, without benefits. How quick you think I'll see a dentist? The news report revealed a shortage of dentists as well. Of course, they're also talking about a child molester.

Any wonder I'm anxious, depressed? I am but one of many in similar situation/s, and the many are expressing a bold statement.

"Get the gun out of my face, now!"

We're tired of living this way, it is wrong. Some of us do have ideas which may or may not be better. But no one wants to bother listening, much less offering these ideas a fair chance. Fine, keep the gun in our face/s, but do take responsibility when it backfires on you, lest we tell you to go home dirty fucking hippies.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, you mentioned how the greenies are doing all these things to hurt employment, yet you do not mention how corporations, left unchecked, despoil the living conditions of all of us.

RE:http://blizog.info/assets/images/posted/1317321385.5285.jpg

The picture above is tap water that has been set on fire. The reason the tap water burns is due to fracking in PA.

Corporations have no soul, they care not a whit for you or me, but only for the profits they can create.

One (of many) reasons OWS has begun is due to the supreme court's ruling that corporations should enjoy the same rights as people with regard to free speech.

The other reason is the out of balance nature of the economy as it stands. Corporations have moved jobs from here to other places where they can literally get away with murder due to lack of regulations. regulations that are designed to protect the health and welfare of those who work for them and live in communities where they exist.

Protest is (and always has been ) a right of the people. It is one way to effect change, when other avenues have been exhausted. Right now, without change we will become, in effect , slaves to the corporations.

Now, I'm not saying corporations are evil. But neither are they good. They are what they are , they have no soul , they are not a person.

Ok I will answer as best I can.......

what happened with the greenies, is they have a pro environment, pro animal rights, pro save the earth type stance,.... nothing wrong with that......

the greenies are not a corporation and nor are they after the corporations, they are a politician group that believe in renewable energy, minimun disruption to the environment etc etc... and against there is nothing wrong with that.......

the company they are going after, are community owned, ... or in simple terms, any NZ'er that use a registered power user, is paid a dividend by them every year rather than to shareholders
the same company also put all of the profits they make, back into the community, and that is a average $5 mill a year, the company only makes $7 a mill a mill profit......

the cost of the fight against the greenies is over $12 mill dollars and its people like me that are carrying the costs of it.... our power bill has more than doubled cos of it.... cos the money to fight the greenies, has to come from somewhere......

so its not a corporation that is being fought against, its a community owned company, the community is paying a huge price cos of it.... seeing no benefits...... and the greenies are demanding the government increase the minimun wage so that people can live...... I am not a wage earner, a wage increase will not affect me, but it will affect companies like the power company that will face a higher wage bill, and still not be able to impliment their plan that will see reduced costs to the consumer, allow them to absorb the increased wage bill, complete the renewable energy resource plan they are trying to do ( that the greenies wanted in the first place )


there is a difference between protesting corporations and protesting the local community companies that are doing what is wanted by the very same people that are now opposing what they wanted done in the first place......

the same resource consent and environmental court process the greenies are using against the energy company, is the same process they had implimented by the government as part of the vote trading scheme, and then used to shut down the local cheese factory, which affected 29 businesses and shut 4 of them down, costing over 100 jobs.......

if the project fails, we may lose our power company to overseas investors / corporations..... in the same way we are facing losing a lot of other NZ assets.... thanks to the protestors that are so busy opposing everything they can find.....

its not the corporations that NZ is fighting against, its the protestors..... as NZ is known as a green country and we are fighting to act in a clean green way with wind farms and other renewable energy options, that the greenies demanded and now oppose regularly........

in effect, we are fighting against the very people that could see NZ being fully owned and operated by foreign ownership as a result of their actions.... the greenies and the protestors....

we have one major bank and about 4 smaller ones.... the rest are foreign owned...... kiwibank was created by nz'ers for NZ'ers, the greenies opposed it cos it was taxpayer money that was used to start it off... but its a 100% NZ owned and operated bank.... we may have to sell it now, thanks to the greenies blocking cash injections into the bank ....

the housing crisis, is a indirect result of the greenies push for things like solar panels in houses, resource consents and other costs such as the energy costs..... it have placed the cost of a new home out of the reach of the average NZ'er,.... due to the lack of work, many trades people went to australia for work ( the brain drain )..... again the greenies have blamed the government for the results of policies implemented by the greenies cos of their vote trading in government

the list goes on and on and on...... and there are no corporations involved.... its the greenies and protestors that are doing the damage to NZ... then blaming the government for the fact that we face becoming like greece ( we are borrowing $300 mill a week to hold NZ above water ) and like america, corporation owned and operated......

the reason why we face that..... is cos of the greenies and protestors that are so adamant that we have to protest everything, that they are opposing the very same things they want in NZ..... and it is costing NZ'ers their jobs, houses, healthcare etc etc.......

to say to people that there has to be a cost connected with protest but people have to stand up for what they believe in ???? I have no issues with that understanding......its something I understand.... but as you can see, the cost to NZ and NZ'ers is so great, it may well cost us our country and everything in it..... yet the people protesting, are refusing to see that they are creating the very same issues, they complain about.... raising costs, rising unemployment, the loss of NZ owned assets etc etc.......

all I want is what most of NZ want..... the protestors to fuck off, unless there is something that needs to be protested, something that is not going to cost the very people, its supposed to benefit.....

[Long Duck Dong]

void, thank you for helping there, since nobody else was able to provide any help

apparently this is the proposed list of demands....... I am hoping that its somebodies idea of a fucking joke...... cos I kinda have a image of the protestors as people with a working brain.......

protestor demands (http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/)

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.

Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.

Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.

Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.

Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.

Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.

Create a single-payer, universal health care system.

Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.

Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.

Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.

Allow workers to elect their supervisors.

Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.

Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.

Ban the private ownership of land.

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

Reduce the age of majority to 16.

Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.

Release all political prisoners immediately.

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Abolish the debt limit.

Ban private gun ownership.

Strengthen the separation of church and state.

Immediate debt forgiveness for all.

End the 'War on Drugs'.


well all I can say..... is ROFLMAO.....

so what do the americans think of that list........

tho I have a question..... how is homeschooling being abolished cos religious people use it to teach their kids about religion, got anything to do with the way corporations are working with the government.......

anybody wanna enlighten me on that one ??????

[Long Duck Dong]

dvia, I have researched fracking, it was not something I was familiar with

everything that I am finding is refering to a accident that resulted in chemicals ending up in drinking water in april 11... not a ongoing corporation tactic to introduce chemicals into drinking water......

I am not sure what I am not seeing or what I am supposed to be seeing there.... as accidents happen.... unfortunate as they are...... and corporations are no different to home owners when it comes to accidents that happen.....

wanna enlighten me as to what your point was with the fracking ???

[Long Duck Dong]

I sidestepped nothing... I said "It benefits everybody because it keeps alive the right to protest for a start.. as a legitimate part of the democratic way.. and paying for democracy is something we have to accept..freedom of speech and expression do not come free.. there is a price that we all must pay..". Now behave yourself u daft bugger take in what people say to you.

Protest has made things better for ordinary people since almost the beginning of time... how else do u think u have a vote? How else do u think we live in democracies and not still under divine right of King and endure feudalism or worse? How else have working people achieved safer work conditions and some semblance of a decent life? Why is it that governments often have to back down when people say no in between elections? Why else do we have decent health services and for all their problems education provison for all of our young people? Why is the western world slowly awaking to the desperate state of our planet? What has saved in my country at least, forests and moorland, countryside being built upon needlessly, forced governments and corporations to tread a little more carefully in the face of determined opposition to what they think and what they do? Why else do we have laws to combat racism, and homophobia? How do u think homosexuality became legalised? I could go on and on... the ballot box often gives governments the mandate to implement their policies, but it is demonstration and protest which has substantially modified and made party policy evolve and bring those policies into being in the first place..

Many protests began with no clear idea of objective.. what is known as the English Civil War is one such.. God forbid things go that far but in the end, that original protest achieved and indeed ultimately surpassed its very limited and vague vision, just as did Jenny Geddes when she threw the Book of Common Prayer at the Dean of the Edinburgh High Kirk around the same time, little could she or anyone else realise just what that protest was a catalyst of.. ultimately both very vague protests signalled the the end of Divine Right, and played their part in making not just the UK what it is today, but also the US, Australia, Canada, New Zealnd and many other countries... dont tell me that vague protest has no value.. history proves you wrong.. without those vague protests bck in the early years of the 17th century it is quite possible that democracy as we know it would not exist.. if at all...

I can say nothing about what has happened in New York because I have seen nothing about it as yet.. I do not and have never supported violence of any kind.. but I can understand frustration.. but whether there was violence by demonstrator or police isnt relevant to what u have said.. protest is important and protest does bring about change and protest has made our lives better.. how we live is evidence of that.. history documents it and u are a fool if u deny it.. and don't try and put words in my mouth.. I condemn violence wherever it comes from and whomsoever is responsible..

..I accept entirely that Occupy has no clear or unified idea of what they want.. greater regulation of a more caring capitalism in the US, probably more socialism in Europe and farther afield.. if u want to know what I want u just have to think back to things I have said in the past.. but I doubt we are even close to that.. I doubt the world is quite ready for the Fran vision of a socialist democracy where power resides at the bottom and capitalism is but a distant unpleasant memory..but what Occupy is and why it is important, it chips away at the fabric of unfettered, rapacious capitalism and brings the day closer when our world isnt controlled by the wants and needs of a few rather unpleasant greedy bastards..My vision of the world may never come to pass.. we dont know how it will pan out.. but what is certain is that if humanity survives long enough, it will devise a system of economics which is a fucking sight better than the one we endure now.. it will be an economic system for all of humanity and the world.. not just for a few hundred thousand economic parasites and social rapists out of a population of 7 billion.

And with the shopkeepers and small businesses and so on making their own protest? That's what protest is about in a democratic society.. from their point of view probably, a good vistory too.. maybe not from mine huh?,We will never like or approve every protest, but we have to accept the rights of those with whom we disagree to have the same rights as us to do so... but isnt it strange how there are those who have been adversely affected by those small business people's protests? Unavoidable.. regrettable.. but that me luffly is the nature and consequences of protest.. but then the adversly affected in this case dont count do they? U dont approve...
.

I know all about protestors and the rights to protest, why people protest etc etc.... but instead of providing a list of the occupy movment demands, you went on and on about the rights to protest etc etc... and totally avoided what I asked for....... the info that was listed in the occupy movement site....

its a list that shoots holes in the occupy movements stance that they are standing against corporations and wall street, cos most of the changes they have listed.... would not affect wall street but create massive issues for the average working person, unemployed and the us economy.......

the same thing I have been talking about, how the results of protests can do far more damage than good......

[tenni]

Each community and country that have Occupy people who have taken up the cause probably have phrased their demands slightly differently. I know that the Occupy group in Toronto as well as New York city have used a horizontal form of decision making that mystifies more hierarchal thinkers. Here is what Occupy Toronto had come up with on Nov. 13. This is a paraphrasing of one of the drafts of Occupy Toronto showing some of the key demands. We should look for their commonalities if we wish to find the common ground of the demands against multi national corporations and the 1% of earners.

It has become evident that globalism and corporate greed have become a detriment to the majority of Canadians. It has also become apparent that our government system serves these banking and corporate interests and not the majority of Canadians who have elected them(government MPs) to their office.

1/ The government of Canada return to financing the national public debt through the Bank of Canada
2/ Corporations are not people and should not share the same rights as people. Corporations should have restrictions placed on them such as donations to political parties. Corporate executive income should be restricted by law
3/ Stringent media ownership laws need to be placed to guarantee freedom of speech
4/ An immediate end to all foreign intervention by Canadian military
5/ A national dialogue begin to improve the present political system as it doesn't represent the voices of the people
6/ Taxing of Corporations and executives be increased as they do not pay their equivalent share and that tax breaks for corporations and the top 1% be reduced
7/ The Canadian criminal code be examined and the policies be examined to guarantee the Charter of Rights are being strictly being adhered to by all police. All Canadian police forces submit to civilian review committees
8/ All international agreements such as border security and CODA be suspended until there is a complete dialogue amongst Canadians. Canadian sovereignty must be respected and not traded by our governments
9/ Canada's natural resources are to be considered the property of all Canadians. All mining, harvesting of these resources need to be considered for the benefits of Canadians and not corporations that extract them.
10/ Basic human rights and freedoms for every Canadian to have the right to food, shelter, basic education and health care. These rights are to be considered paramount by governments. These rights supersede all laws passed by governments.


http://canadianawareness.org/2011/11/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-toronto/

[Diva667]

dvia, I have researched fracking, it was not something I was familiar with

everything that I am finding is refering to a accident that resulted in chemicals ending up in drinking water in april 11... not a ongoing corporation tactic to introduce chemicals into drinking water......

I am not sure what I am not seeing or what I am supposed to be seeing there.... as accidents happen.... unfortunate as they are...... and corporations are no different to home owners when it comes to accidents that happen.....

wanna enlighten me as to what your point was with the fracking ???

Contamination is occurring as a direct (and unavoidable) consequence of fracking. Just like acid mine drainage is a direct and unavoidable consequence of large strip mining.

Corporations often do things that cause damage to people and property. Often they do them until they are forced to change methods.

Example - The Ford Pinto - until they were forced to recall the car Ford continued to claim no responsibility. The Ralph Nader stepped in, the rest you can look up here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto

History has many examples of these types of incidents. Look up Erin Brockovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich)

Corporations are not your friend. They have no soul. They are a necessary evil. If you think they are interested in anything other than profit, you are mistaken.

[Long Duck Dong]

[I]

10/ Basic human rights and freedoms for every Canadian to have the right to food, shelter, basic education and health care. These rights are to be considered paramount by governments. These rights supersede all laws passed by governments.


http://canadianawareness.org/2011/11/proposed-list-of-demands-for-occupy-toronto/

that is something that I really, honestly, have no idea how they would do... but that single statement would the reason I would give my support to the canadian occupy movement and stand beside them......

that is the type of thing that I would definately protest for.... the basic human right of people to have food, shelter, basic education and healthcare......

in fact I think thats the sort of thing that the occupy movement are better putting more emphasis on, than most other things..... cos that benefits so many people and is more worth while fighting of as a cause than how to penalise rich people..... cos its about looking after the people first and making sure they are all ok... then worry about targeting the corporations and the wealthy....

[Long Duck Dong]

Contamination is occurring as a direct (and unavoidable) consequence of fracking. Just like acid mine drainage is a direct and unavoidable consequence of large strip mining.

Corporations often do things that cause damage to people and property. Often they do them until they are forced to change methods.

Example - The Ford Pinto - until they were forced to recall the car Ford continued to claim no responsibility. The Ralph Nader stepped in, the rest you can look up here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto

History has many examples of these types of incidents. Look up Erin Brockovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Brockovich)

Corporations are not your friend. They have no soul. They are a necessary evil. If you think they are interested in anything other than profit, you are mistaken.

I asked you for a explaination about the fracking as I may have misunderstood your point with the fracking... not a whinge about cars......

[DuckiesDarling]

void, thank you for helping there, since nobody else was able to provide any help

apparently this is the proposed list of demands....... I am hoping that its somebodies idea of a fucking joke...... cos I kinda have a image of the protestors as people with a working brain.......

protestor demands (http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-ows-demands/)

Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.

Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.

Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.

Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.

Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.

Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.

Create a single-payer, universal health care system.

Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.

Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.

Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.

Allow workers to elect their supervisors.

Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.

Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.

Ban the private ownership of land.

Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.

Reduce the age of majority to 16.

Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.

Release all political prisoners immediately.

Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Abolish the debt limit.

Ban private gun ownership.

Strengthen the separation of church and state.

Immediate debt forgiveness for all.

End the 'War on Drugs'.


well all I can say..... is ROFLMAO.....

so what do the americans think of that list........

tho I have a question..... how is homeschooling being abolished cos religious people use it to teach their kids about religion, got anything to do with the way corporations are working with the government.......

anybody wanna enlighten me on that one ??????


I am sitting here reading that list and going what the fuck? If that is what the protestors are fighting for they need to be put down. Most of that list is a direct violation of the freedoms we fucking fought for to begin with in this country and things guaranteed by our Constitution. I really hope that list is just a joke someone has put out there cause it doesn't really contain one demand that if realized wouldn't totally and truly cripple ANY country.

[DuckiesDarling]

Diva, honey, I'd say you also have to thank greed for the cause of the picture you posted. It was people wanting that payment for the company using their land to frack the slate to get natural gas that led to this issue. The company is also providing water to the community and working to clean it up. Yeah, sounds like evil corporation to me..........

[Diva667]

Diva, honey, I'd say you also have to thank greed for the cause of the picture you posted. It was people wanting that payment for the company using their land to frack the slate to get natural gas that led to this issue. The company is also providing water to the community and working to clean it up. Yeah, sounds like evil corporation to me..........

oh yeah, 'cause corporations operate on love and philanthropy, right?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/cougar-energy-underground-coal-gasification-trial-plant-at-kingaroy-ordered-to-shut-down/story-e6freqmx-1226090091687

http://protectingourwaters.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/this-fracking-american-life-npr-show-with-focus-on-marcellus-shale-and-pa-to-air-this-week-2/

Get educated, now , before the corporations take over that as well.

We saw how well they ran the country under G.W. Bush...

[DuckiesDarling]

oh yeah, 'cause corporations operate on love and philanthropy, right?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/business/cougar-energy-underground-coal-gasification-trial-plant-at-kingaroy-ordered-to-shut-down/story-e6freqmx-1226090091687

http://protectingourwaters.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/this-fracking-american-life-npr-show-with-focus-on-marcellus-shale-and-pa-to-air-this-week-2/

Get educated, now , before the corporations take over that as well.

We saw how well they ran the country under G.W. Bush...

And again, what about the greed of the people that wanted the million dollar payment? It's not a perfect world, Diva, it's time everyone woke up and realized that and there will never be a perfect world, thank goodness, cause that would be just too fucking boring.

[darkeyes]

.

I know all about protestors and the rights to protest, why people protest etc etc.... but instead of providing a list of the occupy movment demands, you went on and on about the rights to protest etc etc... and totally avoided what I asked for....... the info that was listed in the occupy movement site....

its a list that shoots holes in the occupy movements stance that they are standing against corporations and wall street, cos most of the changes they have listed.... would not affect wall street but create massive issues for the average working person, unemployed and the us economy.......

the same thing I have been talking about, how the results of protests can do far more damage than good......

I provide no list cos there is no set list.. there are dozens of lists, similar and different.. depends where peeps live and on their own political and social culture what any list is.. but the movement is slowly morphing into more than just a protest against capitalism, though that will still be at the core of its very existence, but also into a campaign for greater social justice and cohesion.. it is arguable whether any protest will do more amage than good, just as any change will do more damage than good.. but intent is all, and the intent is to make change..great change so that the world will be a better, more fair and just place, and safer for us all to live in..

You are right in one thing..change would result in massive issues for us all...and some changes will I have no doubt will be highly uncomfortable for us all.. but it is highly debatable whether change which comes about as a result of protest does greater damage than good.. really it depends on where we stand, what we believe in and what we have to lose or gain, what we are prepared to do and if need be sacrifice for the greater good.. how greedy and much of a selfish bastard and parasite we are..

[darkeyes]

And again, what about the greed of the people that wanted the million dollar payment? It's not a perfect world, Diva, it's time everyone woke up and realized that and there will never be a perfect world, thank goodness, cause that would be just too fucking boring.

If it was a perfect world Darlin' darlin', and wiv us bein' part of it, it would be perfect so boredom is not something that would exist..:)

[darkeyes]

I am sitting here reading that list and going what the fuck? If that is what the protestors are fighting for they need to be put down. Most of that list is a direct violation of the freedoms we fucking fought for to begin with in this country and things guaranteed by our Constitution. I really hope that list is just a joke someone has put out there cause it doesn't really contain one demand that if realized wouldn't totally and truly cripple ANY country.

..and give or take a few lil quibbles, Darlin' darlin', I can live with most of that list quite comfortably... have argued much of it in these forums too... we dont all live under your much hallowed constitution thank God, wonderful document though most of it certainly is... but some things transcend documents and words and nothing should be or can be set in stone... which is why constitutions usually have provision for amendment..

[DuckiesDarling]

..and give or take a few lil quibbles, Darlin' darlin', I can live with most of that list quite comfortably... have argued much of it in these forums too... we dont all live under your much hallowed constitution thank God, wonderful document though most of it certainly is... but some things transcend documents and words and nothing should be or can be set in stone... which is why constitutions usually have provision for amendment..

Exactly which parts of the list do you quibble, Fran? I have a lot of problems with a lot of the list for the reasons I state. It won't help, it will only increase problems. Most of that list is aimed at US and so of course it wouldn't affect you. I firmly stand by my rights to own a gun, I stand by my rights to own personal property, I know what would happen if Social Security was lowered to 55. We'd be more than bankrupt in 6 months. Why do I say that? Because there are right now more payments going out to beneficiaries than they are taking in with payroll taxes. They are RAISING the age limit as people are living and working longer in an effort to reduce the impact on the only income many Americans have. There was an issue back before they raised the debt limit that checks to beneficiaries might not have went out the next week. Many people depend on that to live. Not a luxury, a necessity. So yeah I have a problem with a supposed list of demands that claim to want to make a better life for all people while fucking over the majority of people in the long run.

[æonpax]

void, thank you for helping there, since nobody else was able to provide any help<snip>

LOL - If you keep getting your information from loony rightwing sources, small wonder you are so misinformed.

Here is the official list of demands ~ https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ ~. I trust people know how to click on a link so I'm not going to re-post here.

~
~


http://i.imgur.com/XqxBT.gif

[Long Duck Dong]

You are right in one thing..change would result in massive issues for us all...and some changes will I have no doubt will be highly uncomfortable for us all.. but it is highly debatable whether change which comes about as a result of protest does greater damage than good.. really it depends on where we stand, what we believe in and what we have to lose or gain, what we are prepared to do and if need be sacrifice for the greater good.. how greedy and much of a selfish bastard and parasite we are..

thats the same shit I hear from politicians about making the future better, from protestors about how their changes will improve life for us, from climate change advocates about how it will improve the climate, from corporations about making our world a better place, etc etc etc.....

I have heard it, and heard it and heard it.... but I still ain't seeing it.....

strange that...... bit like the feed the hungary in 3rd world countries and help them improve their country..... 50 years later we are still feeding the hungary in 3rd world countries and helping them improve their call center services......

not sure about you and other people, but I help people to improve their country so they can become self substaining.... not answer my questions with a accent I can barely understand.......

btw fran.... any list would have done....but perferably the list for the wall street occupy movement.... cos with the exception of the list tenni posted, there appears to be no other INTELLIGENT list out there......

its why I am curious about the fact that there is no list for wall street, so I am thinking about emailing the canadian organisers of the wall street protest.... the ones behind the occupy wall street movement in the US.....

[æonpax]

<snip/unsnip>its why I am curious about the fact that there is no list for wall street,<snip>

Wrong....


https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ (https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/)

[Diva667]

And again, what about the greed of the people that wanted the million dollar payment? It's not a perfect world, Diva, it's time everyone woke up and realized that and there will never be a perfect world, thank goodness, cause that would be just too fucking boring.

Of course it isn't a perfect world, and it's not gonna be. However I tend to side with people against corporations when it comes down to it.

Do you think all the money in the world is gonna make it ok to lose a loved one?

Another fine example of corporate misdeeds is the BP spill out in the gulf. They were warned and yet did nothing to ensure that their workers, the people who lived nearby, or the rest of us, were safe from that type of disaster. Yet who paid for it - we all did. We are still paying for it and will be for some time.

Oh but , go on make excuses.

It isn't a perfect world , but it could be a far better one.

[Long Duck Dong]

Wrong....


https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/ (https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/)


surely if the occupy wall street movement had a list, it would be on their site..... not a webpage that appears to have no link to the occupy movement......

now, can you go and find a list of demands on the website of the occupy wall site, cos it would be the first place they would post it, link it, refer to it etc etc

that site you posted, has no links to the occupy wall street movement that tells me that they had anything to do with the creation of it... in the same way the list I posted, was stated to be a members input, not a list the occupy wall street movement had created......

the reason i know its not occupy wall street stuff, is if they had released a list, a number of sites and media would have carried it, as a story, blog and article.....

I thought you had a degree in journalism, so surely you would know how things work.......

[Hephaestion]

Diva, honey, I'd say you also have to thank greed for the cause of the picture you posted. It was people wanting that payment for the company using their land to frack the slate to get natural gas that led to this issue. The company is also providing water to the community and working to clean it up. Yeah, sounds like evil corporation to me..........

Is the water being supplied by the companies sourced from elswhere or is it the same water that has been treated in the attempt to render it drinkable again?

Certainly, there will be much interest in the methodology of rendering gas contaminated aquifers pure again.

In the UK, fracking has been responsible for setting off small earthquakes and there is similar concern about tainting the aquifers that are needed. As the water is owned by one commercial lot and the fracking / gas suppliers are another commercial lot one wonders if the fracking and gas companies will have to pay the water companies compensation in the process.

Of course, throwing money at a situation immediately causes the problem caused to vanish and all is as it was beforehand. Hence the interest in the treatment of aquifers.

Oh yes. One has forgotten about the consumers and the impingement on their existence. One supposes that they could move or wait until the next general election to alter the political guidance offered by the resulting government. Or they could roast the backsides of the existing lot and try to stop current risky actions.

[DuckiesDarling]

Hep, they are trucking in bottled water, they are doing there damndest to identify what went wrong and to repair it if possible. In fracking they dig down then angle to get into the shale to release the natural gas. People were overjoyed to have shale deposits and eagerly signed up for the money in return for giving them the rights to use their land for the fracking. Unfortunately, they had an accident and the local water supply was contaminated. It is a very small town but no one there wants to move. So all that can be done is what they are doing, providing for the needs while trying to clean up the mess. Will they succeed? I don't know. But I do know that it is not all the corporations fault, people need to accept responsibility for the choices they make. Should the people have asked for more info on what exactly fracking is and what effects it might have on the environment before they signed the permission slips? Hell, yeah. But it's like the people that buy Big Macs day after day then put the blame on McDonalds for making them fat.

[Long Duck Dong]

Of course it isn't a perfect world, and it's not gonna be. However I tend to side with people against corporations when it comes down to it.

Do you think all the money in the world is gonna make it ok to lose a loved one?

Another fine example of corporate misdeeds is the BP spill out in the gulf. They were warned and yet did nothing to ensure that their workers, the people who lived nearby, or the rest of us, were safe from that type of disaster. Yet who paid for it - we all did. We are still paying for it and will be for some time.

Oh but , go on make excuses.

It isn't a perfect world , but it could be a far better one.

sorry.... BP was not responsible for the qulf issue.... people employed and contracted by BP, were the ones responsible for the gulf issue.....
BP was made responsible for the clean up costs and compensation etc etc.....
and right so.......

same principal as if you own a car, your friend borrows the car, you believe they will act responsibly with the car, you find out their son was doing burnouts in the car.....the cops catch him... so who is responsible.....???

you as the cars owner and the person that believed your friend was using it legally....

your friend for not telling you that their son was using the car and may or may not have known what he was doing with it

the son for driving it in a illegal manner and may or may not have known if you knew he was driving it

btw who is responsible for BP's need to drill for oil to supply a growing demand for oil to power our cars, trucks etc etc.....could it be the same people that created the environment for corporations to exist, cos of our demands for bigger, better, shinier things....

even a oak tree that can threaten a house, needs to come from a sapling and often people plant the sapling with no understanding that one day, the tree could become too dangerous to be allowed to exist....

[Diva667]

sorry.... BP was not responsible for the qulf issue.... people employed and contracted by BP, were the ones responsible for the gulf issue.....
BP was made responsible for the clean up costs and compensation etc etc.....
and right so.......

same principal as if you own a car, your friend borrows the car, you believe they will act responsibly with the car, you find out their son was doing burnouts in the car.....the cops catch him... so who is responsible.....???

you as the cars owner and the person that believed your friend was using it legally....

your friend for not telling you that their son was using the car and may or may not have known what he was doing with it

the son for driving it in a illegal manner and may or may not have known if you knew he was driving it

It doesnt matter who operated it.
They owned it, leased it, it was their profits and they could have shut it down until they had better safeguards. They were warned, they failed to act.

This conversation is going no where. It feels as though I am explaining sunlight to a brick wall.

End of conversation.

[æonpax]

surely if the occupy wall street movement had a list, it would be on their site..... not a webpage that appears to have no link to the occupy movement......now, can you go and find a list of demands on the website of the occupy wall site, cos it would be the first place they would post it, link it, refer to it etc etc
that site you posted, has no links to the occupy wall street movement that tells me that they had anything to do with the creation of it... in the same way the list I posted, was stated to be a members input, not a list the occupy wall street movement had created......the reason i know its not occupy wall street stuff, is if they had released a list, a number of sites and media would have carried it, as a story, blog and article.....I thought you had a degree in journalism, so surely you would know how things work.......

Rationalized; Aside from the fact that the declaration is on a secure Google site (note the "https") so it cannot be hacked, you rationalize that if's it's not on the site YOU selected, it isn't valid. Sowee, it doesn't work that way.

Since I have to show you that it's connected, read this: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/who-are-we

I find it amazing when certain people elevate political ideology to a religious mantra, no amount of facts or logic can dissuade them they are in error. They will rationalize, justify or otherwise over analyze a thing, Ad infinitum...Ad nauseam...until it agrees with their belief.

It's the human condition.

[Long Duck Dong]

Rationalized; Aside from the fact that the declaration is on a secure Google site (note the "https") so it cannot be hacked, you rationalize that if's it's not on the site YOU selected, it isn't valid. Sowee, it doesn't work that way.

Since I have to show you that it's connected, read this: https://sites.google.com/site/the99percentdeclaration/home/who-are-we

I find it amazing when certain people elevate political ideology to a religious mantra, no amount of facts or logic can dissuade them they are in error. They will rationalize, justify or otherwise over analyze a thing, Ad infinitum...Ad nauseam...until it agrees with their belief.

It's the human condition.

so your argument is cos its not on the official occupy wall street movement website, it means nothing, its still a list of their demands that they never bothered to link to, post about or list on their official site.....

next you are gonna be trying to say that al jazeera is a official fox news channel..... and that bill riley is a cameraman for them......

the official occupy wall street site (http://occupywallst.org/) they seem to have managed to not post the list you posted, on their own site ????
not a random site like you pulled up but their official site.....

why would they not link to, refer to or even post about your list, on their own bloody site?????

[æonpax]

so your argument is cos its not on the official occupy wall street movement website, it means nothing, its still a list of their demands that they never bothered to link to, post about or list on their official site.....
next you are gonna be trying to say that al jazeera is a official fox news channel..... and that bill riley is a cameraman for them......
the official occupy wall street site (http://occupywallst.org/) they seem to have managed to not post the list you posted, on their own site ????
not a random site like you pulled up but their official site.....
why would they not link to, refer to or even post about your list, on their own bloody list ?????


You really don't get it, do you? OWS has no one singular spokesperson and no one singular site. It has been and is now, a combination of different groups under the OWS banner...you'd know that if you actually took the time to study it.

The site I gave you is generally regarded, by us in the movement, as the "go to" site for information, but there are others.

Funding and leadership comes from many different sources. OWS - Milwaukee (around where I live) is totally different than OWS - New York, et al. There are some common financial pools but overall, it's the ideology of freeing the people from the bondage of corporate control and rule, that is the common denominator.

I said this before, feel free to believe whatever you want, but all I see is the same cacophonous repetition of the same worn out excuses that those of the right, under corporate influence, prattle.

[Hephaestion]

Hep, they are trucking in bottled water, they are doing there damndest to identify what went wrong and to repair it if possible. In fracking they dig down then angle to get into the shale to release the natural gas. People were overjoyed to have shale deposits and eagerly signed up for the money in return for giving them the rights to use their land for the fracking. Unfortunately, they had an accident and the local water supply was contaminated. It is a very small town but no one there wants to move. So all that can be done is what they are doing, providing for the needs while trying to clean up the mess. Will they succeed? I don't know. But I do know that it is not all the corporations fault, people need to accept responsibility for the choices they make. Should the people have asked for more info on what exactly fracking is and what effects it might have on the environment before they signed the permission slips? Hell, yeah. But it's like the people that buy Big Macs day after day then put the blame on McDonalds for making them fat.

You people get permission slips? Wow! In the UK we only own the 'surface' layers and mining is down to the authorities. Thankfully they are democratically controlled, or are they?

The suspicion is that the situation is irretrievable. There is no way of turning the effects of fracking off. Gas and oil fractions often go together. Perhaps the geological surveys were inadequately informative. Maybe the dangers of aquifer pollution were underplayed. Perhaps activation was excessive. Who knows? The general tennet is that subterranean drinking water is ancient and replenishment is very slow.

I like the impact of Diva's submitted photo. A new meaning to firewater. Certainly emphasizes that much, much, more care is needed and not for the first time. Wasn't there a USA lake that was accidentally drained by mining?

.

[void()]

First, I believe American citizens need to check this (https://sendwrite.com/sopa/) out.

Second,


But I do know that it is not all the corporations fault, people need to accept responsibility for the choices they make. Should the people have asked for more info on what exactly fracking is and what effects it might have on the environment before they signed the permission slips? Hell, yeah. But it's like the people that buy Big Macs day after day then put the blame on McDonalds for making them fat.

It was the corporations fault if they knew the resulting damage would occur, or had indication it could have occurred. Yes, I agree people need to take responsibility. How about those people who run the corporation starting and owning up to a bit of it. No, they were too busy looking at the Big Mac of cheap profits in a commodity known to have adverse environmental effects. Responsibility must be accepted by all if you're going to play that card. It is a two way street.


LOL - If you keep getting your information from loony rightwing sources, small wonder you are so misinformed.

Hey! I might be loony but damn sure am not right or left wing. I follow Marxxism, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me." Besides, I directed him to a search engine. At that point how he used the information was up to him.


It isn't a perfect world , but it could be a far better one.
This conversation is going no where. It feels as though I am explaining sunlight to a brick wall.

We agree.


so what do the americans think of that list........

tho I have a question..... how is homeschooling being abolished cos religious people use it to teach their kids about religion, got anything to do with the way corporations are working with the government.......

anybody wanna enlighten me on that one ??????

Most are largely uninformed about any of the ideas proposed as ideas for bringing change. So, in effect they do not have any real thoughts on the issues. Although, now it seems many more are becoming aware of what is going on. All media was removed from the park when the police went in to evict OWS. The area was under full lock down, even hours after the incident.

Corporations bought and paid for a media black out in my humble opinion. They merely used the police as puppets to shove media out. And it makes sense to anyone following the money over this incident. The mayor is a billionaire, obviously via gains bartered from corporations. Yes, it takes lots of hard labor to look the other way if a sponsor tells you to do so. After all, you don't want to lose the water works paid for by DuPont, who happened to have been rumored to have accidentally dumped toxic waste into said water. Do you? Hey they are providing water to everyone, plus I get paid big money to not concern myself.

It's a simple old game known as greasing palms. And a good number of us are tired of it. Many are now turning to system D. If the big boys can make and break via the black market, we can too. And no mistakes, when playing greasy palms it's nothing but black market dressed up all legal and pretty like in the Sunday best.

As to home schooling and religion. Well, fanatic Christians do not want any change at all. You see, Christianity more than any other religion preaches submission along with other values and morals, which in effect make people into a commodity. This suits big business. "Oh look, more Christians to employ. We can keep them like mushrooms, in the dark and feed them shit, they'll continue working even if what our company does is eliminate fair housing for their own towns." This I do note also comes from personal experience. As a youth I was indoctrinated as a Mennonite. We helped some Amish a few times, we raised barns.

Oddly, I still to this day do speak some very low German as a result. I have deemed German as the language of eugenics, for very obvious reasons. So, me blathering on at times in German for no apparent gives pure unadulterated terror. Thank you fanatic Christians, I'm sure God loves you. :) Apologies for the biting sarcasm, left more civility in my other pants.

The point being, these people get trained from young up to be nothing more than automatons for corporate use and abuse. I was five when indoctrination began. It was at respect for my mother. Her rule was she did not baptize you, but you at least did let her send you to get an education regarding Christianity, as she is Christian. It was a fair enough deal ultimately. She did not demand her children be Christian. She let us choose.

Which is how it should be in America, because religious freedom was one of the key founding principles. But these fanatics won't admit that, nor do they want it or any change. Christianity grows wealthy via supplying robotic sheep. And I'm not the only person to see or say that. Makes a person wonder then. So I'm not alone, might be some truth in it.

Your correct, the list you read may be a lark. But it still represents that people are thinking about and openly discussing a means and end in changing everything. We don't have goals set in stone, nor one or two snappy sound byte things we need to change. We're tired of the whole damn house of cards. It has done nothing for us but pistol whip us. So, we stand up and occupy public spaces to converse. And by the way, the next time a war is called for don't be surprised if no one shows up to fight it. No one wants to listen to voices of change, only fair we don't fight your wars.

And LDD, you might also enjoy some reading over at KOYAANISQATSI (http://www.ratical.com/rat_haus.html). You may even desire understanding (http://www.ratical.org/koya.html). I'm tired of not being free in the land of the free.

By the by, figure it is better to own up to the colors I live under.
Alas, unable to display anarchist colors here it seems. Lovely.

[Long Duck Dong]

aeonpax

ahhh I am still talking about the occupy wall street movement,...which is why I listed the wall street site, I asked about occupy wall street, I mentioned wall street......and its the site I was refered to when I asked on face book about the occupy wall street movement..... NOT sub groups involved in the occupy wall street protest... as they are involved in the protest, but they do not speak for the OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT GROUP !!!!!!!!


the occupy movement has many different groups around the world, but the OCCUPY MOVEMENT have their own official site and organizers and official * voices *.....

the 99% group you list, is a sub group of protesters pushing their own agenda.....

again I asked for the OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT list!!!!!!!

according to the OFFICIAL SITE for OCCUPY WALL STREET .... they have not issued one and are unlikely to for a while......but other sub groups are issuing their own list and declarations as part of their own agendas, NOT the OCCUPY WALL STREET MOVEMENT GROUP

asking anybody for info in this thread is like asking for a vanilla icecream... everybody wants to give you chocolate, argue that you do not need a icecream, ignore the fact you want a icecream or tell you that you are being pigheaded, stubborn etc etc, cos you asked for a icecream

[darkeyes]

thats the same shit I hear from politicians about making the future better, from protestors about how their changes will improve life for us, from climate change advocates about how it will improve the climate, from corporations about making our world a better place, etc etc etc.....

I have heard it, and heard it and heard it.... but I still ain't seeing it.....

strange that...... bit like the feed the hungary in 3rd world countries and help them improve their country..... 50 years later we are still feeding the hungary in 3rd world countries and helping them improve their call center services......

not sure about you and other people, but I help people to improve their country so they can become self substaining.... not answer my questions with a accent I can barely understand.......
sue
btw fran.... any list would have done....but perferably the list for the wall street occupy movement.... cos with the exception of the list tenni posted, there appears to be no other INTELLIGENT list out there......

its why I am curious about the fact that there is no list for wall street, so I am thinking about emailing the canadian organisers of the wall street protest.... the ones behind the occupy wall street movement in the US.....



Any list? U do talk stupid sometimes... often... any list is not good enough.. all lists are good enough.. they are but discussion documents which people spread around the world hope can be catalysts to change and betterment..

..and u help to improve nothing... by your every word u stand in the way of those who try to improve things because u nit pick and quibble without understanding.. u are just about the ultimate doubting Thomas..

Politicians, for all their faults, arent always wrong.. when they try something and it fails or is found wanting.. that's life, and it often comes from human failing as much as political dogma falling on its face.. similarly, protestors who succeed in a cause, unforeseen circumstances arise in the event of that protest's success and they have to be addressed.. protestors too are human and full of human failing.. I am no different.. things I have done and said, things I have argued for have also been found wanting.. we all spout shite on occasion Duckie.. but there are degrees of stink and mess in that shite.. whether shite is spread because of malice, selfishness and stupidity or from an honest and selfless endeavour to improve our lot determines just how much hum and mess is spouted...

..and u dont see change, and the good which has been brought from protest and the shit people spout because u are blind.. you are blind to the improvement in working conditions of millions of workers, the increased safety at work, improvements in education and health, housing, road safety, human rights, and in my own country alone, in the re-establishment of ancient forests, cleaning up rivers, lakes and lochs, beaches and the countryside, conservation of our flora and fauna and the seas around our coasts and an ever increasing if still inadequate move towards renewable energy... it is all too slow and it is all imperfect.. but change happens for the good every day because in all of the things I mentioned, people protested and forced change in the face of both government and corporate opposition.. u don't see it because it is not expedient for u to admit too it..

I may talk shite Duckie, but it is not blind shite, and compared to the shite which rolls off your computer every time u tap a key, it smells as sweet as a rose...

[Long Duck Dong]

lol void

do you want something to laugh at ?

I buy a 50 gram pouch of tobacco @ $46.... the actual cost of it is $8, the rest is taxes, I am one of 400k that pay over 1.3 bill a year in taxes to the government..... thats more than the government pays for the whole NZ health system a year.....

the majority of smokers are unemployed, low income people..... we get the shitty end of the deal, but if all NZ'ers quit smoking tomorrow, the government would have to put in a 5% incease on income taxes for all NZ'ers to cover the lost revenue....

500 people die a year from smoking....

when the government put a 2% excise tax on alcohol, all hell broke loose.....
but if all the drinkers stopped drinking tomorrow, the government would save 12 billion dollars a year
a estimated 1800 people die a year from drink related issues.....

I know about being rich, cos on paper, I have a net worth of over 5 mill dollars.... its actually real wealth, yet I get nothing from it, I can not hold it, spend it, I can not pay tax on it but I can use it as collateral for credit.....
the actual money I do have is my invalids pension that i get once a week... and no bank will touch me, cos I have wealth but no cash flow.....

ironic isn't it.... I am more wealthy than most people in the forum, yeah I exist on a handout from the government

lol.... thats the thing tho, it will be the wealthy that gets the last laugh... cos you can not take from somebody what they do not have any way...lol

[Long Duck Dong]

Any list? U do talk stupid sometimes... often... any list is not good enough.. all lists are good enough.. they are but discussion documents which people spread around the world hope can be catalysts to change and betterment..

..and u help to improve nothing... by your every word u stand in the way of those who try to improve things because u nit pick and quibble without understanding.. u are just about the ultimate doubting Thomas..

Politicians, for all their faults, arent always wrong.. when they try something and it fails or is found wanting.. that's life, and it often comes from human failing as much as political dogma falling on its face.. similarly, protestors who succeed in a cause, unforeseen circumstances arise in the event of that protest's success and they have to be addressed.. protestors too are human and full of human failing.. I am no different.. things I have done and said, things I have argued for have also been found wanting.. we all spout shite on occasion Duckie.. but there are degrees of stink and mess in that shite.. whether shite is spread because of malice, selfishness and stupidity or from an honest and selfless endeavour to improve our lot determines just how much hum and mess is spouted...

..and u dont see change, and the good which has been brought from protest and the shit people spout because u are blind.. you are blind to the improvement in working conditions of millions of workers, the increased safety at work, improvements in education and health, housing, road safety, human rights, and in my own country alone, in the re-establishment of ancient forests, cleaning up rivers, lakes and lochs, beaches and the countryside, conservation of our flora and fauna and the seas around our coasts and an ever increasing if still inadequate move towards renewable energy... it is all too slow and it is all imperfect.. but change happens for the good every day because in all of the things I mentioned, people protested and forced change in the face of both government and corporate opposition.. u don't see it because it is not expedient for u to admit too it..

I may talk shite Duckie, but it is not blind shite, and compared to the shite which rolls off your computer every time u tap a key, it smells as sweet as a rose...

no, fran, any list is not good enuf, .. cos if I wanted any list I would have asked for any list..... and I do not want to look like I have the intelligence level of a protestor by using any old list that any person can post......

occupy wall street movement are a well organised group of people and in time will post a list of what they want to see... that is the list I would like to see and that is the list I will wait for......

if people want to write a shopping list on toilet paper and hold that up as a list, then so be it..... the protest group is over there >>>>>>>>

if the occupy wall street movement want to write a list and post it, then I am right here waiting to see it.... as I am interested in what they have to say.... not beevis and butthead and the rest of the wannabe protestors that mistake cars for trampolines......


I also see a lot of change..... and I see a lot of people protesting about how change is needed cos its not getting better, its getting worse........

now I do not give a rats ass what they are doing in whinging pom land, cos i do not live them... and all too other you post about the protests you are going on, or complaining cos how things are not right........

I have seen a lot of change over the years..... and I am watching unemployment rise, debt increase, my country going broke, wars breaking out, etc etc etc..... and people around the world protesting and complaining about how things are steadily getting worse.... even the world economy is getting worse and countries about to go bankrupt.... even the us got close

now I think that you need to go protest something as it sounds like you are having protest withdrawals.....cos if things were looking up and getting better, than there are a lot of people not seeing it.... like the protestors in wall street and I am delusional and you never protest and talk about how bad things are getting in britain with crime and unemployment etc etc etc....

but it appears that I must be right..... unless the occupy wall street movement are all stoned hippies that are out of touch with reality......cos they appear to be protesting some very serious issues that are getting worse, not better

even in this thread I have posted about the good that the companies in NZ are doing, the money they are pouring into trying to improve things for the better, for the people, for the community, for the climate....... and how the very same people that protested for the POSITIVE changes, are now opposing it every chance they get..... and that is STOPPING a lot of the positive stuff happening....
IE more jobs, lower prices, better consumer options etc etc.... all rest on the projects the companies are trying to get done......
if that is not seeing positive stuff, i have no idea what is.......

I have even posted about how the civil union bill was passed in NZ that gave the same rights to EVERY NZ'ER and I was part of the groups that fought for those rights for ALL NZ'ERs

so tell me again fran what I am not seeing...... cos what I am seeing is positive change being stopped repeatedly in NZ, by protest after protest after protest..... and the cost to all nz'ers cos of that action......

[DuckiesDarling]

Reason for reposting it, Diva? Thought that conversation was over as far as you were concerned???

[silberwolf1960]

Ok here's my :2cents: after having been on the military side of the house my humble opinion is. Many of us have paid the ultimate price for the masses to voice their views in peaceful assembly, that is their right as per the constitution.
Now when such assemblies become a health hazard, a mob, or a violent uprising, and were people use this right to loot, riot, or violent uprising those service members have died in vain and for what?
So some people that who are using this movement for personal gain and their own objectives. That my friends pisses me off to no end.
I believe in the right to peaceful assembly within reason that not only sends a message to the people in high places, but strengthens the movement.
Myself I won't walk the streets carrying a sign, or chanting. Also I do not have my head buried in the sand and I know for a fact that history will repeat itself and when it comes back around it usually will bite you in the ass. That's my :2cents:

[DuckiesDarling]

Ok here's my :2cents: after having been on the military side of the house my humble opinion is. Many of us have paid the ultimate price for the masses to voice their views in peaceful assembly, that is their right as per the constitution.
Now when such assemblies become a health hazard, a mob, or a violent uprising, and were people use this right to loot, riot, or violent uprising those service members have died in vain and for what?
So some people that who are using this movement for personal gain and their own objectives. That my friends pisses me off to no end.
I believe in the right to peaceful assembly within reason that not only sends a message to the people in high places, but strengthens the movement.
Myself I won't walk the streets carrying a sign, or chanting. Also I do not have my head buried in the sand and I know for a fact that history will repeat itself and when it comes back around it usually will bite you in the ass. That's my :2cents:

amen, brother :)

[æonpax]

aeonpaxthe occupy movement has many different groups around the world, but the OCCUPY MOVEMENT have their own official site and organizers and official * voices *.....

There's an old axiom, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink." First off my friend, you need to learn how this movement started. This Wiki site is good enough ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street ~ Read this well. Don't look for loopholes, don't close your mind and don't say you don't believe it because it's Wikipedia.

I presented to you a list of demands or grievances but becuase it's not on the site YOU claim is "official", you discount it. BTW, I'd like to see the URL of this supposed OWS site you have.

Now if you'll read the Wiki article, and I quote;


On October 31, 2011 the Demands Working Group disappeared from the New York City General Assembly website. The server logs show the group was self deleted by the groups controlling administrator. The Official NYC GA website, "Site News" stated that administrators of groups have the ability to delete their own group at any time.[48]

The demands were re-posted on the Google site which has a secure server and cannot be randomly deleted. Let me say this one more time,



There is no one official Occupy Wall Street site.

1 - http://occupywallst.org/ - This site is not, nor does it claim to be, the "official" OWS web site. It's a news site covering OWS events around the world

2 - Look here; ~ http://occupywallst.org/about/ ~ It says, and I quote;


OccupyWallSt.org is the unofficial de facto online resource for the growing occupation movement happening on Wall Street and around the world. We're an affinity group committed to doing technical support work for resistance movements. We're not a subcommittee of the NYCGA nor affiliated with Adbusters, anonymous or any other organization.

It's a popular site but let me emphasize, It's Not Official.
`
`

[darkeyes]

I also see a lot of change..... and I see a lot of people protesting about how change is needed cos its not getting better, its getting worse........

now I do not give a rats ass what they are doing in whinging pom land, cos i do not live them... and all too other you post about the protests you are going on, or complaining cos how things are not right........

I have seen a lot of change over the years..... and I am watching unemployment rise, debt increase, my country going broke, wars breaking out, etc etc etc..... and people around the world protesting and complaining about how things are steadily getting worse.... even the world economy is getting worse and countries about to go bankrupt.... even the us got close

now I think that you need to go protest something as it sounds like you are having protest withdrawals.....cos if things were looking up and getting better, than there are a lot of people not seeing it.... like the protestors in wall street and I am delusional and you never protest and talk about how bad things are getting in britain with crime and unemployment etc etc etc....

but it appears that I must be right..... unless the occupy wall street movement are all stoned hippies that are out of touch with reality......cos they appear to be protesting some very serious issues that are getting worse, not better

even in this thread I have posted about the good that the companies in NZ are doing, the money they are pouring into trying to improve things for the better, for the people, for the community, for the climate....... and how the very same people that protested for the POSITIVE changes, are now opposing it every chance they get..... and that is STOPPING a lot of the positive stuff happening....
IE more jobs, lower prices, better consumer options etc etc.... all rest on the projects the companies are trying to get done......
if that is not seeing positive stuff, i have no idea what is.......

I have even posted about how the civil union bill was passed in NZ that gave the same rights to EVERY NZ'ER and I was part of the groups that fought for those rights for ALL NZ'ERs

so tell me again fran what I am not seeing...... cos what I am seeing is positive change being stopped repeatedly in NZ, by protest after protest after protest..... and the cost to all nz'ers cos of that action......

First of all some companies do good. I dont deny that.. even some corporations do good.. I dont deny that either.. but it is the corporations and their greed and those who run them and rape the planet and the vast majority of us who walk upon it that I object to. The ones who dug the hole we are and and reap the benefits while the rest of us pay for their fuck ups..

I am glad u see change.. and change for the better u wouldnt think it from most of what u say.. things have gotten better in many ways.. no thanks to the corporations or governments.. people did that and forced change upon them.. but not everything has got better Duckie that is the point.. for everything that has improved things have become worse.. if u think that I say nothing about crime or unemployment in this country fine.. it isnt true, but I have a different view of both from u and many other people.. and it may be that things dont stick in the memory.. but I am not an isolationist nor am I parochial.. I have found however, that banging on about purely British issues doesnt exactly set the forums heather on fire..

We do see that companies and and corporations do good and we also see that they dont often do it for purely altruistic reasons, but because it suits their purpose or they have been made to. What one sees as good as not necessarily what the next person sees as good. It is not the good, however much we applaud the good they do or have done we protest about... your subjectivity that sees once positive people protesting negatively is not necessarily how either they or anyone else sees that protest.. just as mine does about any protest with which I do not agree... what u see as positive may not be positive at all.. that is an important point u should really remember... it is a lesson we could all do with remembering sometimes..

.. we are human beings Duckie.. and we all see things differently and believe in different things.. and so we adopt and tailor our attitudes and act accordingly.. I will fight my corner tyvm in the best way I know how.. u fight yours in whatever way u can.. who has the right of it and how positive either of us is I leave to others to decide..

[Long Duck Dong]

aeon, no thanks, I went one better, I emailed a few people and got some answers that was most informative indeed......

not only did this horse go to the water for a drink but this horse went to the source of the water, not the muddy puddle half way down the river....

its a bad day when the organisers and leaders have been quitting their own occupy movements, isn't it......

[Long Duck Dong]

First of all some companies do good. I dont deny that.. even some corporations do good.. I dont deny that either.. but it is the corporations and their greed and those who run them and rape the planet and the vast majority of us who walk upon it that I object to. The ones who dug the hole we are and and reap the benefits while the rest of us pay for their fuck ups..

I am glad u see change.. and change for the better u wouldnt think it from most of what u say.. things have gotten better in many ways.. no thanks to the corporations or governments.. people did that and forced change upon them.. but not everything has got better Duckie that is the point.. for everything that has improved things have become worse.. if u think that I say nothing about crime or unemployment in this country fine.. it isnt true, but I have a different view of both from u and many other people.. and it may be that things dont stick in the memory.. but I am not an isolationist nor am I parochial.. I have found however, that banging on about purely British issues doesnt exactly set the forums heather on fire..

We do see that companies and and corporations do good and we also see that they dont often do it for purely altruistic reasons, but because it suits their purpose or they have been made to. What one sees as good as not necessarily what the next person sees as good. It is not the good, however much we applaud the good they do or have done we protest about... your subjectivity that sees once positive people protesting negatively is not necessarily how either they or anyone else sees that protest.. just as mine does about any protest with which I do not agree... what u see as positive may not be positive at all.. that is an important point u should really remember... it is a lesson we could all do with remembering sometimes..

.. we are human beings Duckie.. and we all see things differently and believe in different things.. and so we adopt and tailor our attitudes and act accordingly.. I will fight my corner tyvm in the best way I know how.. u fight yours in whatever way u can.. who has the right of it and how positive either of us is I leave to others to decide..

fran, I do not deal in making things better, brighter, shinier, prettier.... I deal in the here and now... cos i have heard more promises from people than I care to remember.......

I also deal with reality, that nothing is perfect... even DD will tell you that I am realistic in things.... like the time she asked me if I would miss her when she left NZ and I replied I will have no idea, until you are gone...... then I will know if I miss you or not.......

things I see as positive, are things that i can be positive about.... IE with the hydro dam, things do not build or run themselves, so yes, i can be positive about the new jobs... doesn't mean that I will be a fool and believe that the jobs will always be there.......

I am realistic in the fact that people like me, are the bottom line, we are the last to be considered and the first to be kicked...... thats a simple fact of life.... and reflected every 3 years in the elections IE, the unemployment benefit for a single person is still the same as it was in 1986 when I was first made redundant from my first full time job.....
the solo parents benefit has near doubled........

nobody protests for me... cos I am not a solo mother, unemployed and needing work, part of the environment etc

they protest against me cos i smoke, I am a ex criminal that they want more harshly punished etc etc etc

I am aware that the government wants to wipe out my income so single mothers have more money for their children that they can not afford to keep, but keep having........

yet, I sit quietly, looking after a 81 year old male that has no family, on a pension with no caregiver provided cos there is no money to provide one for him... and listening to the greens party going after the pension fund that provides for the pensioners, by way of investments, cos its not in the investment funds that they deem acceptable... ignoring the fact that changing the fund would result in pension cuts for the elderly......

and til the day he dies, I will quietly sit with him in the house we rent, watching people protest about the world and how wrong it is.... and he tells me about how in the old days, everybody looked after everybody, shared food, drink, clothing, a roof over their heads..... and I will tell him that til the day he dies, i will make sure that he has food, a doctor, warm clothes and a roof over his head..... cos I will provide it for him by what ever means I have ....

there are those that will talk and protest and talk and protest and make claims and promises and all that BS...... and all I will say, is talk all you want about making the future better, but for some people, there will be no future... they are the elderly, and what matters most to them, is not what you will do for their future, but what you are doing for them today..... cos tomorrow may never come.......

that, fran, is reality..... that is fact, and that is what I see day after day after day.... so all the talk of making things better, doesn't really matter to me..... cos nothing you do will change anything... not higher wages, not better healthcare, not better environmentally friendly housing..... so my fight is for the people that already have what lil they have and are in danger of losing that....cos of people that are blind to anything beyond their own reality.......

hence why I made the remark earlier in the thread about you going to your home with your family etc etc.... cos you have one.... many don't... and they are the ones that are ignored when it comes to handing out the plates at the table and dividing up the *spoils *.... and its the people like me that have nothing, yet we truly look after those that are in need... cos somethings you can not protest for

think about it

[darkeyes]

It is because I see the reality and live with it every day I believe as I do Duckie.. I don't live in cloud cuckoo land and divorced from reality.. I know I am one of the luckiest people on this earth.. but being one of the lucky does not mean I bury my head in the sand and do not see the wrongs of this world... I deal with it differently from you and analyse things differently...I attach responsibility to different quarters and see different solutions..

[Diva667]

By the by, figure it is better to own up to the colors I live under.
Alas, unable to display anarchist colors here it seems. Lovely.

For you:

http://www.cellphone-wallpapers.net/Wallpapers/User/8124-Anarchy.jpg

Also, this seems appropriate given the recent news.

Spanish Bombs (http://youtu.be/IUUmX9h9k9A)

Spanish songs in Andalucia
The shooting sites in the days of '39
Oh, please, leave the ventana open
Federico Lorca, dead and gone
Bullet holes in the cemetery walls
The black cars of the Guardia Civil
Spanish bombs on the Costa Rica
I'm flyin' in on a DC-10 tonight

Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon
Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon

Spanish weeks in my disco casino
The freedom fighters died upon the hill
They sang the red flag
They wore the black one
After they died, it was Mockingbird Hill
Back from the buses, went up in flashes
The Irish tomb, drenched in blood
Spanish bombs shatter the hotels
My Senoritas rose was nipped in the bud
[From: http://www.elyrics.net/read/c/clash-lyrics/spanish-bombs-lyrics.html]

Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon
Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon

The hillsides ring with, "Free the people"
Can I hear the echo from the days of '39
With trenches full of poets
The ragged army, fixin' bayonets to fight the other line
Spanish bombs rock the province
I'm hearin' music from another time
Spanish bombs on the Costa Brava
I'm flyin' in on a DC-10 tonight

Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon
Spanish bombs
Yo te quiero infinito
Yo te quiero, oh mi corazon
Oh mi corazon
Oh mi corazon

Spanish songs in Andalucia, Mandolina, oh mi corazon
Spanish songs in Granada, oh mi corazon
Oh mi corazon
Oh mi corazon
Oh mi corazon

"Spanish Bombs" - Mick Jones, Joe Strummer

Let them as eyes, see, and them as has ears , hear.

[æonpax]

aeon, no thanks, I went one better, I emailed a few people and got some answers that was most informative indeed......not only did this horse go to the water for a drink but this horse went to the source of the water, not the muddy puddle half way down the river.... its a bad day when the organisers and leaders have been quitting their own occupy movements, isn't it......


Spoken like a true rightwinger. When confronted with proof of the errors, of their ways, "Deus Ex Machina" happens and suddenly, out of nowhere, they get valuable (and secret) information from an unknown source, regarding some unsaid belief they have and are grasping onto with white knuckles.

You are something else dude....in a good way. :color:

[jamieknyc]

I am the only person her with any personal knowledge of OWS, so my :2cents:counts double.

Anyone who is talking about an "official" OWS web site or about OWS "leaders" does not know what they are talking about. OWS rejects so-called "vertical" forms of leadership and believes in what it calls "horizontal democracy," in which all decisions are made by a General Assembly of the participants. So-called "working groups" manage certain administrative tasks (food, sanitation, media, security, legal etc.) but have no power to make decisions or to spend money in excess of $100 without authorization from the General Assembly.

[tenni]

Jamie
I think that your observations are some of the most valid but I'm not sure about double..:bigrin:

The process that you describe about decision making is similar (as far as I know) to the Occupy Toronto group.

I'm not sure that this horizontal democracy is a strength or a weakness. There are some interesting thoughts on what the Occupy movement might do without the tents.

What I don't understand is how defiant one or two posters seem to be in support of multi national corporations?

I also question someone using their military service to give themselves more credibility than other citizens. They were part (a pawn) of the military industrial complex controlled by and profiting a few people at the expense of the many.

[void()]

For you:

http://www.cellphone-wallpapers.net/Wallpapers/User/8124-Anarchy.jpg

Also, this seems appropriate given the recent news.

Spanish Bombs (http://youtu.be/IUUmX9h9k9A)


:oh::bibounce::grouphug: I follow plain black mainly, and red, green, purple, pink and white over black. I is a pretty mucked up feller. :rotate::impleased

[Long Duck Dong]

I am the only person her with any personal knowledge of OWS, so my :2cents:counts double.

Anyone who is talking about an "official" OWS web site or about OWS "leaders" does not know what they are talking about. OWS rejects so-called "vertical" forms of leadership and believes in what it calls "horizontal democracy," in which all decisions are made by a General Assembly of the participants. So-called "working groups" manage certain administrative tasks (food, sanitation, media, security, legal etc.) but have no power to make decisions or to spend money in excess of $100 without authorization from the General Assembly.

the official site as being the main site that most people are referring to for info..... for people like me that are not in the us....... I have friends in the occupy wellington and auckland movements, and friends in facebook.... they all referred me to the site I listed...... one person referred to the 99% site of aeonpax....... so I refer to OWS.ORG as the * official * site as I am being referred to it as the official site......

leadership as in the representive *voices * of the different groups......

the people I mailed, were a combination of *voices * in nz, the us, Australia and people in canada...... and they all too, referred me to the *official * site and referred me as to who to mail as * voices * in australia, the US and canada

if you do not mind, jamie, i would like to come to you as a * official * voice at NYC.....that way I can get correct info from NYC, it makes it easier to double check my info if I knew there is a neutral person there, that can help with questions, queries etc........ and ti beats the hell out of dealing with people that are not at NYC so you are in a prime and impartial position to help me......

in fact, I will just mail you, its gonna be easier to talk directly with you.... that way ......

[Long Duck Dong]

Spoken like a true rightwinger. When confronted with proof of the errors, of their ways, "Deus Ex Machina" happens and suddenly, out of nowhere, they get valuable (and secret) information from an unknown source, regarding some unsaid belief they have and are grasping onto with white knuckles.

You are something else dude....in a good way. :color:

actually its called emailing people at the occupy centers.... people that are there........ strange tactic I know.... but it beats the hell out of dealing with people in milwaukee that are talking about how things are in NYC, when I can talk directly with people at NYC and get their version of events... not the wikipedia version of events... or the milwaukee persons version of events in NYC

its why I am talking with people on facebook and via email, that are at occupy australia, canada, uk, NZ etc etc.... cos the info they are sharing is not matching the info posted on things like many of the occupy sites ( protestor info ) or main stream media

its the same way as the live stream feed I watched, with live mobile feed and the guy talking about what was going on there... and showing what was happening as it was happening..... the version of events he was talking about and showing, were different to the version of events that were mentioned on the protest sites and the media mainstream

this horse drinks at the source of the water, but this horse also likes to drink from many sources as each source is different.......

the truth is out there, and I am fox mulder.......

btw The "centre-right" party in New Zealand are the Nationals, They are the political equivalent of the Republican party in the USA or the Liberal party in Australia ( copied and pasted )

so I am going to assume that if I am right wing, that would make you left wing.... and over here, left wing are labour, they are the ones that empowered the greenies with vote trading, and led to many of the reforms and laws that resulted in the NZ housing crisis, promised tax cuts for 9 years that never happened, and cut funding to many essential services so they could give billions of dollars to 14% of the country, and lied about the financial state of NZ, 6 bill in the black was actually 9 bill in the red, when the books were opened for the incoming goverment.......

care to rethink your labelling as me as a political term ?????

[Long Duck Dong]

Jamie

I also question someone using their military service to give themselves more credibility than other citizens. They were part (a pawn) of the military industrial complex controlled by and profiting a few people at the expense of the many.

yeah..... same attitude as people in NZ, lets give the money promised to the vets for their rehab, to people like drug addicts, alcoholics, solo mothers with multiple children to different fathers that do not pay children support......

but when there is a natural disaster, lets expect the army to mobilise and help protect, aid and assist the rest of NZ like in the CHCH disaster, cos the * war corp * has the skills, expertise and knowledge on how to work in * war zones *.....

lets expect the military to pay for their bodies and minds..... but lets ignore them when they need us to honor our promises and give them the entitlements they were promised......

people like me fight for/ help in emergencies, the same country that people like you want to look after you when the shit hits the fan.... people like me want the country we look after, to look after us....... thats not a sense of entitlement,..... thats just wishful thinking

[love1234]

sorry.... BP was not responsible for the qulf issue.... people employed and contracted by BP, were the ones responsible for the gulf issue.....
BP was made responsible for the clean up costs and compensation etc etc.....
and right so.......

same principal as if you own a car, your friend borrows the car, you believe they will act responsibly with the car, you find out their son was doing burnouts in the car.....the cops catch him... so who is responsible.....???

you as the cars owner and the person that believed your friend was using it legally....

your friend for not telling you that their son was using the car and may or may not have known what he was doing with it

the son for driving it in a illegal manner and may or may not have known if you knew he was driving it

btw who is responsible for BP's need to drill for oil to supply a growing demand for oil to power our cars, trucks etc etc.....could it be the same people that created the environment for corporations to exist, cos of our demands for bigger, better, shinier things....

even a oak tree that can threaten a house, needs to come from a sapling and often people plant the sapling with no understanding that one day, the tree could become too dangerous to be allowed to exist....

Nikola Tesla came up with free energy for people a long time ago others did also.. They stopped him as no profit they killed some. Hemp seeds could supply the world with fuel and oil.

[Long Duck Dong]

Nikola Tesla came up with free energy for people a long time ago others did also.. They stopped him as no profit they killed some. Hemp seeds could supply the world with fuel and oil.

bio oil and bio fuel are not viable as commercial fuels as they can not be mass produced in the required levels to sustain the world demand......

this was proven by the earth race bio diesel boat, its also known as the ady gil.....and it set the world race for the fastest around the world trip for a bio fuel powered vessel.......
do your research and you will find that peter bethune admitted, they used normal diesel not bio diesel on the trip as bio diesel was simply not viable as a fuel option IE too expensive to produce.....

it is not so much the cost of producing it that is the issue, it is the cost of growing and refining the oil that is the issue..... its why it can be produced but we lack the land space for all the hemp that would be needed, and the ability to process the oil on the scale it is needed at........

tesla..... lol he was not murdered, he died of natural causes at the age of 86, something that is not uncommon in elderly people, in fact it happens a lot.....
.
free energy is something that is available, its called solar panels, pedal power, wind farms, and even the produce of natural occurring methane gas, which could be mass produced easily.... one of the best sources is bull shit... and I am referring to bull shit, not bullshit, but bull shit.... bulls that shit

its a shame that we can not harness the power of bullshit tho, it would only take a few protestors, policitians and conspiracy theorists in each country to provide enuf power for everybody.....

wanna volunteer ?

but while we are on the subject of bullshit and bull shit.... you may like to read this.... its about the NZ fart tax
NZ's fart tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_emissions_research_levy)

[darkeyes]

bio oil and bio fuel are not viable as commercial fuels as they can not be mass produced in the required levels to sustain the world demand......

.
free energy is something that is available, its called solar panels, pedal power, wind farms, and even the produce of natural occurring methane gas, which could be mass produced easily....



I happen to find myself in agreement more or less with u vis a vis biofuels...but they are commercially viable or the great corporations wouldnt touch them, but it is a destructive option and millions of square kilometres of forests are being felled to produce the stuff and other wildlife habitats lost.. great swathes of land trationally used for food production have been converted to biofuel crop production.. it is not an option to me save producing what we can on surplus farmland..however with millions still facinng starvation, what surplus farmland? And of course doing that if we can find it, makes it less economic and so the great corporations would not be that interested.. it is not an option for the mass production of energy to all and in that you are spot on..

There is no such thing as free energy.. even wind, solar and natural gas, methane, tide, pedal or any other kind come at a price.. solar panels and turbines have to be built, maintained, replaced, and gas plants and pipelines built and maintained and of course waste material for the produce of some methane has to be transported to gas plants where we can we use natural methane already in existence extracting that and piping it and shupping it to where it is needed also incurs expense.. and energy producing machines at sea also require construction maintenance and cabling..using natural volcanic energy such as is common in Iceland has a price... like hydro power, they may be green and even renewable but they do not come free.. and even good old pedal power.. it too has a price.. bikes have to be built, and tyres produced.. R&D costs also have to be built into the equation and the cost of manpower to keep renewable energy flowing and so keep us powered up.. energy may be free in the sense that it is there to be harnessed.. but getting it to us in a form we can use is not and never shall be free as long as we use money to make the world go around..

Of course we can walk and run everywhere and pick berries, maybe even do a little hunting, make our own clothes, shoes with a home made knife or spear and burn what we find lying around... all 7 billion of us.. not too sure how long we would last and am sure the wildlife wouldnt be too impressed either... even hunter gathering came at a price..

..as such, like so many other posts on the thread, this isn't much to do with the question Tenni asked.. but I have and shall again protest and campaign on renewable energy and on conservation issues in ways I outlined earlier.. to me the two are inextricably linked and do it peacefully without violence, and with millions of others try to persuade governments and corporations to do more than they do, and do it not out of national/corporate greed or self interest.. but for the good of humanity, our natural world and the planet as a whole.. it is our home.. we have no other.

O yea.. Love didnt say Tesla was murdered.. I believe he said Tesla was stopped...but no matter.. murdered o stopped he wasnt quite right in either case...

[Hephaestion]

1) Much as one has great disdain for Mrs T, one of the things that she suggested was an environmental tax based upon the degree of 'dead end' pollution caused by any particular process / activity.

2) North Sea Oil was known about decades before it was ever exploited. The time to exploit N.Sea oil would be when the price of oil from elsewhere had risen sufficiently to render it commercially viable. One can see this argument applying to bio-fuels.

3) In the attempt to cope with the size of the human population and their consumer demands, an oriental research group has actually managed to produce the 'bowel burger' which is made of processed human faeces and their food chain. Elsewhere, waste digesters are doing a sterling job creating methane for local use e.g. creating electrical power.

4) LDD, have you thought about 'down-sizing' or equity release. These are all the rage in other capitalist countries.

5) JamieKNYC - thank you for confirming what has been publicised elsewhere.

6) Was it Oakland that a murder took place balmed on protestors - the live report from that on the BBC World News on morn at 430am said that the area expected over 100 murders as the normal course of events and that there was no link to the protestors only that it occurred in the neighbourhood.

7) Wonderful piss take film "Four Lions" where the protagonists intend to blow up their own mosque, frame other groups for the event so as to cause a muslim uprising; an old ploy.

8) Notices to quit have recently been re-issued to the London protestors. Your corrspondent will be joining an unrelated protest movement with similar aims outside the Bank of England in early Dec. The other OAP's involved will be shaking their zimmer frames in unison. Abused Christmas carols will be deployed to lift one's morale. Please bake cake with file inside.


.

[Long Duck Dong]

free energy fran.... I am surprised that as a environmental conscious person, you have never heard of the term free energy....

you make the basic outlay of costs, IE your solar panels, and once up and running, they generally provide a ongoing energy source at nil or next to nil expense....

in some countries they will actually pay you a credit if you continue to come under a set level of power consumption as the less you use, the less needs to be produced and that has a flow on effect....... my sister uses the system in australia....

in situations where your energy costs are zero or you are even able to sell power to the energy companies, its often referred to as a free energy situation.....

the greenies pushed for that type of thing in NZ and failed, cos to their way of thinking, it was good for the climate and the world etc etc, therefore people should pay out $30k for solar panels on new homes..... trouble is, when you add in all the other * world friendly * ideas and it comes to over $120k per house, and most people could barely afford a $150K mortgage,
adding in wage increases and and the added costs, it moved the average house price to $300k and higher......putting them well out of the range of the average person

good idea in theory, bad move in reality.... and its not like they had no idea that it would do that to people, cos many experts showed numbers that proved it was not going to be viable, but as part of the vote trading scheme between the greenies and labour, it went thru......

what they should have done was subsided the solar panels for existing and new houses and given people interest free loans to cover the rest of the cost, that way the cost of savings from the lowered power usage would have off set the cost of the loans..... it would have benefited everybody, cost nobody......

as a update... nov 16th, a major nz construction firm, has confirmed its laying off more workers, over 200 more jobs are going, due to the house building industry work shortage.....

no end in sight to the housing crisis, but the job losses are still happening......



as for tesla, there is a common understanding that he was murdered and most of his paperwork disappeared and that the fbi or other groups were behind it........its a conspiracy theory and one that has existed for years....

[darkeyes]

Dont get sarky with me Duckie.. I know the term... and they have schemes here just as u outline.. but it doesnt alter the fact that provision and supply of renewable energy still has has cost.. it is not truly free... my energy costs might be zero, which actually they wont be, but what about everyone else? We are paying for solar panels ourselves, and any surplus will be sold on and supplied to others on the national grid.. but it will still not be entirely free.. there will be regular costs to us which may well be paid for by any monies we make from the power companies.. companies who supply goods and services will have their own costs in respect of their energy production equipment and supply and these costs will be passed on to guess who? Yep.. you and me and the rest of us..

Subsidies and interest free loans seem to be a cost to me (and I agree with u them being made available)..but for them someone has to pay..and even once all those subsidies are exhausted and loans paid off... there will still be costs attached.. because panels will need repaired, replaced, maintenance required of equipment cabling and wiring.. it may be less costly in the long term Duckie but it will still cost even allowing for any offset.. your economics rather leave something to be desired..

Dont u worry, Duckie.. when the world is 100% energy renewable there will still be plenty of reason for us to go on the streets in protest about private corporations and governments making sure we still pay through the nose for our "free energy". Even if solar power is the only energy source available, and it wont be, nor should it be...

[Long Duck Dong]

Dont get sarky with me Duckie.. I know the term... and they have schemes here just as u outline.. but it doesnt alter the fact that provision and supply of renewable energy still has has cost.. it is not truly free... my energy costs might be zero, which actually they wont be, but what about everyone else? We are paying for solar panels ourselves, and any surplus will be sold on and supplied to others on the national grid.. but it will still not be entirely free.. there will be regular costs to us which may well be paid for by any monies we make from the power companies.. companies who supply goods and services will have their own costs in respect of their energy production equipment and supply and these costs will be passed on to guess who? Yep.. you and me and the rest of us..

Subsidies and interest free loans seem to be a cost to me (and I agree with u them being made available)..but for them someone has to pay..and even once all those subsidies are exhausted and loans paid off... there will still be costs attached.. because panels will need repaired, replaced, maintenance required of equipment cabling and wiring.. it may be less costly in the long term Duckie but it will still cost even allowing for any offset.. your economics rather leave something to be desired..

Dont u worry, Duckie.. when the world is 100% energy renewable there will still be plenty of reason for us to go on the streets in protest about private corporations and governments making sure we still pay through the nose for our "free energy". Even if solar power is the only energy source available, and it wont be, nor should it be...

free energy is just a term fran...

besides, if my average power bill is $400, and solar energy reduces that to $150, and the maintence costs are $1000 a year..... thats still $3000 a year in money I am not paying the energy company.... so yeah some people call it free energy as their costs are covered and they still have money.....
thats a example by the way.... just in case you want to debate the numbers....

as for the subsidies and interest free loans, the money is actually the money you have paid in taxes to the government... you get to see your tax dollars doing something to benefit you..... and not going to pay for the expenses incurred by protestors that are chewing up your tax dollars........


the nz government did the same thing with the subsidised insulation of non insulated homes, the government paid most of the cost of installing insulation in homes.... people like my flatmate gained a extra subsidy cos he has a pensioners gold card ( it was the home owner that paid the rest of the bill and he requested that the homes were insulated )...... its the taxes that rental home owners pay, that covered the cost of the insulation, the money went to a NZ company that was able to hire extra staff and provide employment to people.....

remember that this is the national government doing this......

other areas that they are using the collected taxes, is up in auckland, 2000 HNZ ( housing NZ ) houses that are over 50 years old, are being demolished as they are classed as substandard housing, its not possible to upgrade them to the current building standards and they are owned by the government, they are low income housing..... the governments plans are to demo them and rebuild new houses that are up to and better than required standards

tho as usual the relocation of families to other homes so the work can go head, is being protested in a attempt to stop the government going ahead with fulfilling a promise to create better housing for low income people in substandard HNZ housing.....

one of the protest leaders is sue bradford, a former green party member that was behind the movement to revamp the housing standards law.. the same laws the government is following.....
the government has offered to relocate the families into other houses as a temp measure, pay for relocation and moving costs and give them first option on the new houses....... and dear sue bradford is protesting to stop the families being moved out of their substandard housing even tho they are not up to the standards that her and her former party, had made law........

meanwhile, all the NZ builders and contractors that need the work, are waiting and waiting and waiting.......

yes I can see so much positive, fran, oh so much positive stuff.... and then I see protestors......

[darkeyes]

free energy is just a term fran...

besides, if my average power bill is $400, and solar energy reduces that to $150, and the maintence costs are $1000 a year..... thats still $3000 a year in money I am not paying the energy company.... so yeah some people call it free energy as their costs are covered and they still have money.....
thats a example by the way.... just in case you want to debate the numbers....

as for the subsidies and interest free loans, the money is actually the money you have paid in taxes to the government... you get to see your tax dollars doing something to benefit you..... and not going to pay for the expenses incurred by protestors that are chewing up your tax dollars........


the nz government did the same thing with the subsidised insulation of non insulated homes, the government paid most of the cost of installing insulation in homes.... people like my flatmate gained a extra subsidy cos he has a pensioners gold card ( it was the home owner that paid the rest of the bill and he requested that the homes were insulated )...... its the taxes that rental home owners pay, that covered the cost of the insulation, the money went to a NZ company that was able to hire extra staff and provide employment to people.....

remember that this is the national government doing this......

other areas that they are using the collected taxes, is up in auckland, 2000 HNZ ( housing NZ ) houses that are over 50 years old, are being demolished as they are classed as substandard housing, its not possible to upgrade them to the current building standards and they are owned by the government, they are low income housing..... the governments plans are to demo them and rebuild new houses that are up to and better than required standards

tho as usual the relocation of families to other homes so the work can go head, is being protested in a attempt to stop the government going ahead with fulfilling a promise to create better housing for low income people in substandard HNZ housing.....

one of the protest leaders is sue bradford, a former green party member that was behind the movement to revamp the housing standards law.. the same laws the government is following.....
the government has offered to relocate the families into other houses as a temp measure, pay for relocation and moving costs and give them first option on the new houses....... and dear sue bradford is protesting to stop the families being moved out of their substandard housing even tho they are not up to the standards that her and her former party, had made law........

meanwhile, all the NZ builders and contractors that need the work, are waiting and waiting and waiting.......

yes I can see so much positive, fran, oh so much positive stuff.... and then I see protestors......

*laughs*...me an all.. I see protestors.. cos without them renewable energy woud be just so much talk and we would be choking on fumes and pollution even more than we are now... cos little or none of it would have happened..

Stop wheedling.. u said in respect of solar power certainly, at no cost to anybody... plainly bollox.. you even contradicted yourself when u said it.. I do agree that it will benefit everybody.. I suspect at the end of the day.. the great corporations and multinationals and the financial power brokers more than most.. and us less than we think..

C u on the barricades...;)

[silberwolf1960]

I was hoping that no one was going to use their uncommon sense to talk smack about the miliary. But tenni you have. Let's get this in perspective.

1.) Unless you have been there, done that, don't bash anyone that has served
(having served 20 years myself). We still are individuals with our own set
set of beliefs and we do think outside of the box.
2.) I suggest you thank a vet for freedom of speech, which by the way is not
God given. It was paid for in the blood of fallen men and woman that have
" manned up" answered the call and paid the ultimate price for your rights.

3.) Don't ever say we are part of the " military industrial complex". We chose
This life of our own freewill for whatever reason, be it 9/11, we can't find
work, or we believe we doing it for the greater good.

4.) If you have never been in combat and taken the life the enemy that is
trying to kill you and your buddy, or trying to kill civilians because they
they are teaching young girls to read and write and better themselves in a
country that oppresses that way of thinking. If you haven't had a friend die
in a country that reminscent of the worlds largest cat litter box, unless you,
yourself does not have PTSD, a traumatic brain injury, missing a limb(s).
I suggest you do not bash those of us that serve(ed). You don't know us
and don't assume ( read the word) that you think we are a fucking robot
that doesn't have emotions and feeling for our fellow man.
Finally we have fought and died and have been wounded so you can have your rights and live and love the way you do.
Do me a favor ask the Iraq vet that was injured by the police because he stood up not only his rights, but yours to.
Now tenni when are you going to deploy to Iraq, or are you going to Afghanistan. Oh wait you ain't.

[silberwolf1960]

I almost forgot I'm writing Santa in hopes of making my job as a soldier obsolete.

[darkeyes]

I was hoping that no one was going to use their uncommon sense to talk smack about the miliary. But tenni you have. Let's get this in perspective.

1.) Unless you have been there, done that, don't bash anyone that has served
(having served 20 years myself). We still are individuals with our own set
set of beliefs and we do think outside of the box.
2.) I suggest you thank a vet for freedom of speech, which by the way is not
God given. It was paid for in the blood of fallen men and woman that have
" manned up" answered the call and paid the ultimate price for your rights.

3.) Don't ever say we are part of the " military industrial complex". We chose
This life of our own freewill for whatever reason, be it 9/11, we can't find
work, or we believe we doing it for the greater good.

4.) If you have never been in combat and taken the life the enemy that is
trying to kill you and your buddy, or trying to kill civilians because they
they are teaching young girls to read and write and better themselves in a
country that oppresses that way of thinking. If you haven't had a friend die
in a country that reminscent of the worlds largest cat litter box, unless you,
yourself does not have PTSD, a traumatic brain injury, missing a limb(s).
I suggest you do not bash those of us that serve(ed). You don't know us
and don't assume ( read the word) that you think we are a fucking robot
that doesn't have emotions and feeling for our fellow man.
Finally we have fought and died and have been wounded so you can have your rights and live and love the way you do.
Do me a favor ask the Iraq vet that was injured by the police because he stood up not only his rights, but yours to.
Now tenni when are you going to deploy to Iraq, or are you going to Afghanistan. Oh wait you ain't.

I suggest u reread ur history.. freedom of speech was won for us not by military means, but by civilians often fighting against a military who were used by the political power of the time to quell their rebellions against their authority.. sometimes the military has played its part in defending that right in western terms by defending against an external enemy such as Japan, Germany or the Soviet Union, but historically it more often not throughout the world has been used for quite a different purpose.. ordinary people won our right to free speech and the other freedoms we enjoy.. the military played a relatively bit part except as oppressor.. if proper thanks are due to anyone for winning us our freedoms it is more to those generations of ordinary people who defied the military power rather than to the military power itself..

[tenni]

"Finally we have fought and died and have been wounded so you can have your rights and live and love the way you do."

Silber
First, this thread is not about your military service or anyone's military service.

Second, I strongly support my country's paying for any medical needs of former military persons.(note that I am Canadian and so stop the bs about Iraq etc.) I respect them for their service to my country but also acknowledge that they were pawns of political decisions and manipulation. If you can not see yourself as having been a pawn of your military industrial complex that is your problem.(Haliburton executives and former executives like Cheney being right there with other one percenters) My country's military (and some of your own) do good for the country but invading other countries is not part of that. I never supported the mantra "support our troops" because I knew that it was a shallow government manipulation that ends the day they leave the service at times far too often. I did not support my government sending troops to Afghanistan. Being in Afghanistan has nothing to do with my freedoms whether they be freedom of speech , assembly etc.

I won't even touch much on all the lies about freedom that your government has shovelled during the Bush era. Where is your freedom to marry who you wish regardless of gender sir? Canadians have such a freedom based upon our constitution's Charter. Our Constitution and Charter was not born out of killing or war.

So, our perspectives are different at the get go. I reject your position. That's it. We agree to disagree.

Any former military person has no more rights than I do in my country. Their voice counts no more than my voice or any Occupier. Seeing a former soldier wearing his uniform in a line of Occupiers is interesting but doesn't cause a knee jerk reaction in me.

[silberwolf1960]

Tenni and darkeyes, I agree to disagree with you and anyone else. I do have to apologize for the cheap shot on Iraq.
I do read history and everyone can come to many agreements and disagreements as they read it.
In my trying to a point, I took it personally and reacted as such, that was my fault.I love my country, but I damn sure DO NOT trust my government or any governing authority.
I am no anachist, all I ask is they leave me alone and do not push their way into my personal space. All I want is to live the rest of my life as I see fit.

[silberwolf1960]

Tenni and darkeyes, I agree to disagree with you and anyone else. I do have to apologize for the cheap shot on Iraq.
I do read history and everyone can come to many agreements and disagreements as they read it.
In my trying to a point, I took it personally and reacted as such, that was my fault.I love my country, but I damn sure DO NOT trust my government or any governing authority.
I am no anachist, all I ask is they leave me alone and do not push their way into my personal space. All I want is to live the rest of my life as I see fit. I just want to tend my flower and veg garden, hunt and fish to fill my freezer, drink my beer and Jamison, make love to consenting adults.
War really is a funny thing when it comes down to the individual that is in it. There really are no winners, just broken men and women that just want to leave it all behind us. Again I agree to disagree with all, and thaht is what's called freewill.

[void()]

do you want something to laugh at ?

I buy a 50 gram pouch of tobacco @ $46.... the actual cost of it is $8, the rest is taxes, I am one of 400k that pay over 1.3 bill a year in taxes to the government..... thats more than the government pays for the whole NZ health system a year....

$cost==tobacco cost in U.S. Dollars
$pk==cigarette package
$c==cigarette
$t==Federal & State Taxes
$pt==Percentage of Tax


9.9063 kg==1$pk $cost~=4 $pk $cost~=.40 per kg tobacco ~=2 kg==$c $cost~=.80 $c (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cigarettes) & $cost~=50$pt

How it roughly works out here. Eighty cents a cigarette is up from twenty cents per about five years ago. This means cigarettes have increased in price per unit twelve cents per year, which roughly translates to six cents per unit going to social welfare, allegedly.

Further, at one thousand units sold this would mean sixty dollars goes toward alleged cause. This means out of fifty cartons sold, twenty cigarettes per pack, ten packs per carton, sixty dollars goes to the cause. It's likely in a day over ten times as many cartons are sold, granting around six hundred dollars per day to social welfare. However, I find it unlikely all of that goes where it is inferred to go.

More likely that perhaps only around one hundred dollars goes to the cause. The rest being 'lost in transit' to play the 'greasy palms' game. Of course, I am not exactly certain regarding accuracy in any of this, it is but speculation. Yet it serves to illustrate a very accurately real problem which does exist.

And this problem is something which I, and many others find disturbing. To that end we seek affecting a change for the better. In seeking that change we give voice to ideas. That voice is ignored despite our right to have such grievances addressed. We are told it is a problem caused in our name, therefore we are responsible for the problem. In the case of cigarettes, I may concur, as they are a personal luxury by choice. Cigarettes though, are but a shard of the larger problem and can be easily remedied. I can and may choose to not smoke.

Larger issues though, are at work in creating the larger problem. The larger problem is people chosen to represent my name, despite my not choosing them since I voted for Regan. That was the only time I ever voted since coming of legal age to vote. My choice then was ignorantly based upon jingoistic mass media blitzing manipulated by the owners of it. Simply put, I liked Regan's image, even came to appreciate him as a person. Met him while serving once, briefly. He was a personable person, and as humorous off camera as on.

Since then, I read of Stalin who is quoted as saying, "it is not he who votes that rules, but he who counts the vote." And upon this nudge, I read, explored and learned he was correct. In essence he is saying those with power will use control to keep power, this is only logical. Knowing that I saw no need any longer to vote, as in fact my vote held no power. It still does not. This is the larger problem. I have no choice whom acts in my name, nor it seems any choice in how they would act. This is a grave wrong.

Our voice rises up to deaf ears. We must be the change we seek in the world. We must choose to not use this fallacy of a system we did originally make to serve a better purpose, which is now corrupt at its core. We can and may choose better alternative/s. I wager those ears won't be deaf when no longer we raise our voice but act, and in that action refuse submission to a broken system.

[Diva667]

Philadelphia Police Capt Ray Lewis Joins OWS Protest and Gives Message to NYPD from Zuccotti Park (http://youtu.be/ocdnl4XlTOU).

[DuckiesDarling]

Nice, Diva. But on the reverse sign there are a number of comments on a page about the protest call to block the Subway saying "We are members of the 99% and we implore you not to do this as we need to get to work" and others in the same vein. The 1% would not be affected if the subways were shut down, only the 99%. As the 1% don't take the subway. This is what I was meaning about when the protesters begin to affect the very people they are protesting for negatively that it is time to step back a bit and go for the more political approach.

Here's a link to the story about how it's affecting people's jobs.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/occupy-wall-street-protests-block-people-jobs-article-1.979467

[Long Duck Dong]

*laughs*...me an all.. I see protestors.. cos without them renewable energy woud be just so much talk and we would be choking on fumes and pollution even more than we are now... cos little or none of it would have happened..

Stop wheedling.. u said in respect of solar power certainly, at no cost to anybody... plainly bollox.. you even contradicted yourself when u said it.. I do agree that it will benefit everybody.. I suspect at the end of the day.. the great corporations and multinationals and the financial power brokers more than most.. and us less than we think..

C u on the barricades...;)

lol, your statement is hilarious.. fran.... saying that protestors are the reason we have renewable energy......

in NZ, we use hydro dams and they have been in existence since around the 1960's... the protests over renewable energy started in the 80's and 90's in NZ.......
NZ has prided itself on trying to maintain a majority green energy generation system for a good many years... but part of the issue is that we have had to use coal and oil energy generating systems to keep up with societies demands..... and moves have been going on to phase them out.... that is part of why people are getting so pissed off with protestors blocking attempts to put more green energy systems in place on the level we require for power production......

we do have a number of wind farms in place, but still deal with opposition from green protestors that use arguments like they would look out of place in some areas... like the one way down south, that you would have to drive for 3 hours right into the middle of nowhere, to see the dammed things as they are on private land and the only access is by private road.....any person that is there without permission is going so illegally.... but we already know that you support illegal acts in order to prove points......

yes I said no cost to anybody, wanna explain to me how you can be charged for sunlight ????

I look forward to your answer, oh great one.......

[tenni]

Silber
I wish you well and happiness with your garden I hope that you have a peaceful and happy life out of the military. I hope that you get all the medical help that you may need.

Diva
That is a very interesting video of the retired police captain.
.................................................. .....................

Tonight, I watched the news of the Occupy movement in New York city. More than 200 arrested and blocking of streets with the increased numbers protesting. I brought this movement to this site's attention and asked if anyone had heard about it more than two months ago now. I first became aware of it from my more progressive contacts on Facebook. The main stream media was absolutely silent about the Occupiers. It has spread as predicted and possibly more so Those in power may have or be making a huge mistake. Whether this will become a huge social movement is still unknown but with each day it looks more like that way. Comparisons to the social upheaval of the 1960's are beginning to be made. It is too early to really tell.

A major difference from this movement and the US Tea Party group is that like the issue it has become an international movement. The issue of the multi national corporations that have increased to be so powerful to alledgdly being more powerful than some/many country governments. This is not a problem of one country.

.................................................. .
In Toronto, the judge has delayed his decision as to whether the Occupiers can be forced evicted out of St. James Park. I suspect that other cities have become aware of this issue but many homeless youth have graviated to St. James Park. Another issue of the Occupy movement may be bringing homelessness to the forefront. The young men in today's paper were clean shaven and fairly well dressed young men. They are not the usual stereotypical homeless of mentally ill people etc.

[Long Duck Dong]

I suggest u reread ur history.. freedom of speech was won for us not by military means, but by civilians often fighting against a military who were used by the political power of the time to quell their rebellions against their authority.. sometimes the military has played its part in defending that right in western terms by defending against an external enemy such as Japan, Germany or the Soviet Union, but historically it more often not throughout the world has been used for quite a different purpose.. ordinary people won our right to free speech and the other freedoms we enjoy.. the military played a relatively bit part except as oppressor.. if proper thanks are due to anyone for winning us our freedoms it is more to those generations of ordinary people who defied the military power rather than to the military power itself..

I am having trouble, can you direct me to a copy of the world history according to fran... cos I want to see how much of it differs from documented world history......

the ordinary people are what makes up the military, ... they are not super soldiers, they are not space aliens, they are ordinary people..... just like the rest of the world.....just like you

its the same with corporations, there is no world super computer creating terminators to run them, they are ordinary people...... just like you

its the same with the government, they are not puppets with hands up their asses, moving their mouths, they are ordinary people just like you

it is a combination of everybody, that resulted in freedom of speech for people......
the military and the civilians to do the fighting, the government to sign laws into power.....and they were all ordinary people

it is the same with protestors, they are still ordinary every day people, human beings, regardless of the label we give them, just like you

it is a common trait of people making a statement to dehumanize people into a group, removing their identity and humanity in order to devalue them and their contribution to society......

when you remove the humanity, emotions, thoughts etc of the military servicemen and women, you do a extreme disservice to people that share the same dislike of violence as you, yet have served.....and deny the very nature of the person....... even you, yourself have posted about some of the military service pacifist heros that have fought for what they believe in at the same time they have fought along side people like me that are ordinary people too, except we use guns.......

I love the way you dismiss military service people, when it suits you but hold on to your pacifist *idols * as a example of people NOT military personnel * that stand true to their beliefs of non violence, while they too serve as military personnel......

is war right or wrong ??? its personal opinion..... is the military right or wrong... again its personal opinion... but we are civilians that put a uniform on.....don't rubbish our contribution to this world by limiting it to when we wore a uniform cos much of what we may do for this world, is when we are not wearing a uniform......

[darkeyes]

lol, your statement is hilarious.. fran.... saying that protestors are the reason we have renewable energy......

in NZ, we use hydro dams and they have been in existence since around the 1960's... the protests over renewable energy started in the 80's and 90's in NZ.......
NZ has prided itself on trying to maintain a majority green energy generation system for a good many years... but part of the issue is that we have had to use coal and oil energy generating systems to keep up with societies demands..... and moves have been going on to phase them out.... that is part of why people are getting so pissed off with protestors blocking attempts to put more green energy systems in place on the level we require for power production......

we do have a number of wind farms in place, but still deal with opposition from green protestors that use arguments like they would look out of place in some areas... like the one way down south, that you would have to drive for 3 hours right into the middle of nowhere, to see the dammed things as they are on private land and the only access is by private road.....any person that is there without permission is going so illegally.... but we already know that you support illegal acts in order to prove points......

yes I said no cost to anybody, wanna explain to me how you can be charged for sunlight ????

I look forward to your answer, oh great one.......

In this country we have had Hydro power since long before the 1960s... and ur right.. there were no demonstrations or protests which brought them into being...... some from early environmentalists and people losing their homes through submergence.. it is no little thing to drown hundreds of square kilometres of good land and wipe whole towns, farms and villages from the map... but they were a technology to supply a need. But subsequent to the advent of hydro power and realisation that we had to do something about replacing finite fossil fuels and pollution of our planet and global warming it is environmental protest that has wakened up governments to the need to find alternative energy resources.. and what better than wind, wave and solar power.. corporations have been slow to develop these technologies because it was not in their economic interest to do so..

..and u know what I mean about solar power.. we may lie in the sun and warm our bodies at no cost, and we cannot do without it to exist, but the conversion of that energy to something more than just heat on our faces and to bring it into our homes offices schools and factories thus powering our societies, costs.. and those costs we have to pay.. it may be less costly than fossil fuel created energy, is certainly less damaging to our environment, and renewable.. but it has costs to us... it is something you cannot escape however much u try.. even the growing of crops after months of basking in glorious free sunshine costs... sunshine may be free, but making that sunshine into something more than it is for us to live, is not...

..and I do not commit illegal acts simply to prove a point, Duckie.. I approve of committing illegal acts when law is in my view bad law, but for the most part I obey the law even then.. but sometimes in what I perceive as the greater good, I have and will again break the law and commit acts which are deemed illegal.. once male homosexuality was illegal in this country and in your own I think. Were homosexual and bisexual men right or wrong to have sex with each other in defiance of the law? Breaking the law is no little thing.. once it was illegal in this country to be members of Trade unions.. were men and women wrong to join or form trade unions? Sometimes breaking the law has to be done.. not to prove a point.. but for a purpose in the greater good of us all... once it was illegal for a slave to run from his or her master.. were they wrong to break the law? And were those who hid and helped them wrong? It is no little thing, and should never be done lightly, but sometimes in extremis we have no choice...

[darkeyes]

I am having trouble, can you direct me to a copy of the world history according to fran... cos I want to see how much of it differs from documented world history......

the ordinary people are what makes up the military, ... they are not super soldiers, they are not space aliens, they are ordinary people..... just like the rest of the world.....just like you

its the same with corporations, there is no world super computer creating terminators to run them, they are ordinary people...... just like you

its the same with the government, they are not puppets with hands up their asses, moving their mouths, they are ordinary people just like you

it is a combination of everybody, that resulted in freedom of speech for people......
the military and the civilians to do the fighting, the government to sign laws into power.....and they were all ordinary people

it is the same with protestors, they are still ordinary every day people, human beings, regardless of the label we give them, just like you

it is a common trait of people making a statement to dehumanize people into a group, removing their identity and humanity in order to devalue them and their contribution to society......

when you remove the humanity, emotions, thoughts etc of the military servicemen and women, you do a extreme disservice to people that share the same dislike of violence as you, yet have served.....and deny the very nature of the person....... even you, yourself have posted about some of the military service pacifist heros that have fought for what they believe in at the same time they have fought along side people like me that are ordinary people too, except we use guns.......

I love the way you dismiss military service people, when it suits you but hold on to your pacifist *idols * as a example of people NOT military personnel * that stand true to their beliefs of non violence, while they too serve as military personnel......

is war right or wrong ??? its personal opinion..... is the military right or wrong... again its personal opinion... but we are civilians that put a uniform on.....don't rubbish our contribution to this world by limiting it to when we wore a uniform cos much of what we may do for this world, is when we are not wearing a uniform......

My view of the military and its purpose is very different from you and even most people Duckie.. my pacifism makes that inevitable.. but dont think I dismiss the contribution made by millions of military and ex military people to the world we have today... my quibble is not with them but with the military as an institution and what I see as its primary purpose and how the military as an institution goes about that purpose... many of those who died fighting for our rights and freedoms were military people and ex military people.. my point is not that the military as an institution has done nothing, but that its contribution to winning our liberties and rights is overplayed, and that historically, it has been used as a tool of oppression at the very least as much as one of attaining and defending our freedoms.. and in many parts of the world it still is.. in many parts of the world our militaries are still tools of oppression of the freedoms of other peoples.. that last point can be debated and is. It will be for a long time yet..

..but of ordinary men and women who have served in the military, don't put words in my mouth, which you are always so very keen to do...

[Long Duck Dong]

In this country we have had Hydro power since long before the 1960s... and ur right.. there were no demonstrations or protests which brought them into being...... some from early environmentalists and people losing their homes through submergence.. it is no little thing to drown hundreds of square kilometres of good land and wipe whole towns, farms and villages from the map... but they were a technology to supply a need. But subsequent to the advent of hydro power and realisation that we had to do something about replacing finite fossil fuels and pollution of our planet and global warming it is environmental protest that has wakened up governments to the need to find alternative energy resources.. and what better than wind, wave and solar power.. corporations have been slow to develop these technologies because it was not in their economic interest to do so..

..and u know what I mean about solar power.. we may lie in the sun and warm our bodies at no cost, and we cannot do without it to exist, but the conversion of that energy to something more than just heat on our faces and to bring it into our homes offices schools and factories thus powering our societies, costs.. and those costs we have to pay.. it may be less costly than fossil fuel created energy, is certainly less damaging to our environment, and renewable.. but it has costs to us... it is something you cannot escape however much u try.. even the growing of crops after months of basking in glorious free sunshine costs... sunshine may be free, but making that sunshine into something more than it is for us to live, is not...

ok in NZ most of the hydro lakes and hydro dams are in the south island, its a sparsely populated and most of the island is made up of the alps so burying towns and 100s of kilometres of land was a lil hard to do..... so once again its a issue that doesn't apply to nz on the scale that it may apply in other countries.........

with a population of 4.5 ( approx ) mill people total, and just over 1 mill of them in the south island, its a ideal location for wind farms etc..... as its mostly isolated land..... the north island is more densely populated and its mainly protestors from the north island that travel down to the south island to protest something in areas that they generally never go near anywhere......

right..... solar power is free.... but commercially its not viable as a energy resource in NZ......it is viable as a home owners energy resource but mainly in the areas like i live where we have one of the higher sunshine hours per year level......
things like growing crops and running factories are things you are pulling into the issue to bolster your stance and your argument...... they are things that are not optionally in NZ, hence windfarms are the better option and for the larger commercial scale, the hydro lakes and dams.......

things like sun bathing ???? tanning my ass in the sun is not gonna power things like the microwave.... so I am not sure what the hell your point is with warming bodies....

sunshine is a free energy source, there is a outlay yes.... but outside of the purchase, install and maintence costs.... there is still no cost in the sunshine.... its cos the big corporations can not own it or copyright it, the government can not tax it and the protestors can not protest the sky to stay eternally clear then protest cos we never get rain from the clouds.....

[tenni]

To quote George Monbiot:
"If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire."

Many who are rich today owe "less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth."

"Between 1947 and 1979, productivity in the US rose by 119%, while the income of the bottom fifth of the population rose by 122%.

But between 1979 and 2009, productivity rose by 80% , while the income of the bottom fifth fell by 4%. In roughly the same period, the income of the top 1% rose by 270%. "

(http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/the-self-attribution-fallacy/)

[Long Duck Dong]

My view of the military and its purpose is very different from you and even most people Duckie.. my pacifism makes that inevitable.. but dont think I dismiss the contribution made by millions of military and ex military people to the world we have today... my quibble is not with them but with the military as an institution and what I see as its primary purpose and how the military as an institution goes about that purpose... many of those who died fighting for our rights and freedoms were military people and ex military people.. my point is not that the military as an institution has done nothing, but that its contribution to winning our liberties and rights is overplayed, and that historically, it has been used as a tool of oppression at the very least as much as one of attaining and defending our freedoms.. and in many parts of the world it still is.. in many parts of the world our militaries are still tools of oppression of the freedoms of other peoples.. that last point can be debated and is. It will be for a long time yet..

..but of ordinary men and women who have served in the military, don't put words in my mouth, which you are always so very keen to do...

what you see as the role of the military, is different to the people that have served and actually know what happens in the military......

shock horror 70% of the military are non combatants..... they are engineers, transport drivers, medics, chefs, clerks, instructors etc etc...... they are often the people that mobilise in disasters, many of them will never see combat.... well unless you count protestors running riot in their own countries.....

they are trained and skilled professionals that can mobilise into roles like that .... I can drive any vehicle that moves, diggers, forklifts, trucks, bulldozers, cranes, cars, buses.... I can use explosives, I can use gas axes, jaws of life etc and in emergencies I can even fly planes and helicopters....

thats how well I was trained in the military... it makes people like me highly valued employees that can get into the high paid jobs........

as for the military contribution to winning your freedoms and liberties is overplayed..... I love that..... it was a combination of military and civilians that kicked the whinging poms out of the us.... but lets ignore that.....lets ignore ww1 and ww2 and protecting the us and uks freedoms.......lets ignore poland, france and all the other countries in ww2 that lost their freedom to the invaders.........

can we also ignore the assistance of nato in countries like libya and irag and afghanisation..... etc etc

ok whats left.... ok... its a small list... oh shit fran.... we have a issue.... cos the only other group that has done a lot for freedoms and liberties are the governments that signed them into being as legal law.......

now if we remove the military..... well then that would leave the governments in power......and that would leave the civilians to fight against corrupt government.... cool.... so i better not mention the countries that have asked for help from other countries governments to send their military personnel overseas to protect peoples freedoms and rights to be free......ie libya etc

I can not help but noticed that they asked for the military ... not pacifists, not anti war protestors, not people that want to talk and talk and talk...... they asked for people that would fight fire with fire..... cos pissing on bushfires doesn't work that well.... and thats why we have firemen and women with big hoses and firetrucks, not enviromentalists with their dicks in their hands........

but we all know at the end of the day, people that disagree with the military will always believe they are right..... and people like me are still wanting to see the power of non action against people like gaddafi and saddam etc etc.....

love the military or hate them..... as the government of fiji found out, the military is not always their *puppet *

[Long Duck Dong]

To quote George Monbiot:
"If wealth was the inevitable result of hard work and enterprise, every woman in Africa would be a millionaire."

Many who are rich today owe "less to talent and intelligence than to a combination of the ruthless exploitation of others and accidents of birth."

"Between 1947 and 1979, productivity in the US rose by 119%, while the income of the bottom fifth of the population rose by 122%.

But between 1979 and 2009, productivity rose by 80% , while the income of the bottom fifth fell by 4%. In roughly the same period, the income of the top 1% rose by 270%. "

(http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/the-self-attribution-fallacy/)

yeah the income dropped as production grew... its called innovation and technology.... you create something that can produce the same quantity of product in less time, you become able to provide more product in the same amount of time it used to take to produce a lesser amount.......

its like comparing the horse and cart with the truck.... the truck can move far more than the cart, faster... therefore the truck is more viable.....

the same principal applies to machinry that can mass produce so you no longer need the same amount of people.... hence you cut staff, if you cut staff and still are producing more product then there is less people making money, so the income will drop for the lower class as less of them are employed over all......

the wealth of the 1% grows because they create a product you want.... IE the iphone 4s, people were lining out outside of shops hours before the shops opened to be the first ones to buy it..... consumer demand means that more product is needed, wanted and sold, creating more profit.......

higher demand means that automation becomes the better option, resulting in less jobs and more profit........ in the case of the 1%, less cash outlay, more cash income results in more wealth....

BUT you have to create the idea, find the need and go from there

facebook.... created cos of a need, generated interest, investors wanted to be a part of it... it grew, became more popular.... expanded... and made some people wealthy.....

microsoft....

apple

bp

the list goes on.........

the people that created them, were not ultra rich... they were people that had a idea and made it work.... expanded it and let it grow........

if it was not for the visionaries, we would still be fucking by firelight and plowing fields using horses, hunting rabbits for dinner... and all be bloody near broke.......

but somebody would invent a better way, we would want it, we would buy it, make the person wealthy, then bitch cos he is wealthy and we are not....

[tenni]

Last night, former Bush official Karl Rove appeared at Johns Hopkins University to speak as a part of the annual Milton S. Eisenhower Symposium. Rove soon discovered that he wasn't going to deliver his right-wing rhetoric unopposed, as a cry of "Mic Check!" rang out among the audience.

"Karl Rove is the architect of Occupy Iraq, the architect of Occupy Afghanistan!" yelled the demonstrators. Occupy Baltimore had infiltrated the crowd and began chanting against Rove. "Who gave you the right to occupy America?" asked Rove to the protesters, apparently unaware of the Bill of Rights. As they repeated their slogan, "We are the 99 percent!" Rove petulantly responded, "No you're not!" He snidely added, "You wanna keep jumping up and yelling that you're the 99 percent? How presumptuous and arrogant can you think are!"

About 15 protesters were asked to leave and some were forcibly removed. No one was arrested.

http://readersupportednews.org/news-section2/316-20/8444-karl-rove-flips-out-at-protesters

[jamieknyc]

I am the only person here with personal knowledge of what has been going on in Lower Manhattan. Yesterday, only a handful of people had trouble getting to work, and there was no obstruction of subways or any of the other wild talk you may have heard. The massive police presence was greatly in excess of any real threat to the area (to be fair, at the time the City was not unreasonable in preparing for the eventuality).

In two months of protest, there have been no incidents of anyone who lives or works in the area being threatened, harassed, interfered with getting to and fro, or any other annoyance other than the noise and drama, and no property damage of any type.

[12voltman59]

There is growing evidence coming out that the crackdowns on the Occupy events going on around the country are part of a coordinated campaign to silence the movement and head off larger scale protests in the future:

http://www.alternet.org/newsandviews/article/736778/more_on_police_departments%27_collusion_in_defense _of_1%3A_who%27s_the_organization_coordinating_tho se_crackdown_calls/#paragraph3

And this I found interesting---that one "K Street" lobbying firm---with several of its principals having been former members of US Rep and House Majority Leader John Boehner's staff----were trying to drum up business with the American Banking Association to attack and discredit those taking part in the Occupy movement: http://upwithchrishayes.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/19/8896362-exclusive-lobbying-firms-memo-spells-out-plan-to-undermine-occupy-wall-street-video

In a previous post I had surmised that both of these things either would happen or were happening----looks like I was correct in thinking so. You can be sure that this lobbying firm is not the only one geared up to try to whip up fears about the Occupy movement, to try to make it seem like a bad thing and most important of all---protect the interests of those industries and such targeted by OWS.

[tenni]

Yesterday, Friday, Nov 18 at the University of California Davis, the police came on to campus and pepper sprayed students sitting in peaceful resistance across a road that led to others with tents established. The commentator refers to his actions as spraying bugs on the road.

Watch the video.

In particular, pay attention to what the other students do after the students are peppered sprayed. The used Occupy tactics of chant. The police were surrounded by students who told them.

"Shame on you"

"This is our University"

"Don't shoot students"

"You may go".

The police look a bit baffled and definitely it was a tense situation.

http://boingboing.net/2011/11/18/police-pepper-spraying-arrest.html

[void()]

Been giving a lot of thought about changing our political system. Many people keep shrilling the point "take it to the ballot". Those protesting and feeling as though our governments are corrupt enough that votes don't matter, cannot see this as useful.

Here is a serious question. What happens if no one, or not enough vote? This would be taking it to the ballot. We could abstain from voting, possibly holding the system hostage. It would be a beautiful tactical, legal strike against the corrupt system.

Yes, we have a right to vote. Maybe abstaining on such a level would amplify our voice through a just means. And we also have a right to not vote. Not voting out of lack of confidence in the system is often viewed as a vote of no confidence, considered a vote just the same.

This would further infer the politicos would need to ask what could be done to gain our votes. We could refuse commenting until the next round of voting, and then have a conference to announce our requests of the system. Frankly, I want people who allegedly represent me, to do my bidding not that of corporate greed or furthering their stay of power.

Democracy means as long as I pay taxes, the government is my employee. We ought to start reminding the government of that, openly, directly. Go for a meeting regarding SNAP, bureaucrat case worker give you slack then step up.

"Excuse me, while I realize you may have a difficult job, you are no less my employee. Please do remember that and treat me with due respect of an employer. I don't need to hear your complaints, there are many seeking jobs right now. Shoot, I'll do your job."

After all, your tax money pays their salary. Somehow not paying taxes if you can, became illegal. Fine, we still got the ballot. Let's take it by not voting. What are they going to do, let incumbents ride until ...? And then we can declare their illegality because they will be in term longer than legally allowed.

They are our employees. Let's give them a taste of the 'at will' clause in our employment application.

[jamieknyc]

Abraham Lincoln used to say, Void, "if you don't like me, you can vote me out in the next election."

[void()]

Abraham Lincoln used to say, Void, "if you don't like me, you can vote me out in the next election."

Understood but that isn't what I'm driving at. I am saying no one should vote, period. Force their hands then because we'd have them in office as illegal incumbents. They would have no choice save listen to the people, we'd have the political system hostage. "What do you want for your votes?"

"Get the corruption out. Rebuild our system with a new one. We'll be in touch."

[Hephaestion]

In the UK spoilt ballots are counted. Not voting signifies no interest in the political system and outcome.

If other votings systems work the same way then the tactic to deploy is for everyone to vote but to spoil their ballots.

[void()]

In the UK spoilt ballots are counted. Not voting signifies no interest in the political system and outcome.

If other votings systems work the same way then the tactic to deploy is for everyone to vote but to spoil their ballots.

Yes, more to the point. Let those in power in know we've no faith in the system. Not voting being the vote. I think it would send a clear message and possibly hold the system at hostage. It would at least mean some politicians would be serving illegally gained terms.

"No one voted us out, so we continued."

"No one voted you in, either. You were illegally in office. You are impeached and sentenced with appropriate legal sentences."

Not sure what those sentences would entail, although if they are illegally in office, would that infer treason?

Oh, wait King Bush did that two terms and did not go to trial. Well, it seems going through legal and peaceful channels is looking slim. *shrugs*

"whatsa matta you, you know understand the english? you can't come in unless you say swordfish."

Sorry, just seems a total clusterfuck.

[Darkside2009]

In the UK spoilt ballots are counted. Not voting signifies no interest in the political system and outcome.

If other votings systems work the same way then the tactic to deploy is for everyone to vote but to spoil their ballots.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Start your own Political Party called None of the Above, you might just win with a landslide-victory. lol

I'm not sure if it is still the case, but in Australia it was compulsory, for those eligible, to vote. Failure to do so without valid excuse, resulted in a fine.

Still, if you do not concern yourself with what politicians are doing in your name, it should come as no surprise if they enact something that you do not agree with.

The 'harsh light' of publicity works just as well on political shenanigans as it does on corporate folly or religious hypocrisy. Expose those doing what they should not be doing, hold them to account.

If you do not vote, all that will happen is those with a different political agenda or interests will be elected unopposed.

[void()]

Darkside,

You miss the argument. With no faith in the system there is no opposing political agenda. It has become obvious it is all 'more of the same' no matter if we vote or not. Fine, pack our marbles and refuse to play the game. Is there a game when there are no players?