Homosexuality and Foreign Aid

[darkeyes]

This week Cameron threatened that unless some countries change their attitudes and lighten up on homosexuality, their status vis a vis reciept of British foreign aid was at risk.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/oct/30/ban-homosexuality-lose-aid-cameron

I have always had mixed feelings about this carrot and stick approach to foreign aid and even if I do think many poorer countries have appalling human rights records to punish the ordinary citizens of those countries but withdrawing British or anyone elses aid I think is more often than not counterproductive, often pushing those countries into the arms of equally less tolerant prosperous nations who have no scruples who they supply aid to.... it also provides less progressive governments with a stick to hit us over the head with and takes little account of the religion and culture of the countries in question within which homophobia, or the view that homosexuality is a sin ( the two are not quite the same) are ingrained and alienates us in any affection or respect the ordinary population may have, thus making it so much more easy for unscrupulous tyrannical governments to bite back and take their revenge in the course of time.... many of those countries were given their view of homosexuality by the British in the days of empire and that is not an easy thing to expunge.

It is a controversial thing Cameron suggests, and I do have sympathy with what he is saying, but if enacted can see it coming back to haunt us... history suggests that more liberal social and sexual attitudes come with prosperity and the greater education it brings, and we should be looking to the long term and not the immediate to achieve our aim.

The Tories in Britain were also in the news this week with the election of Ruth Davidson as leader of the Tory group in the Scottish Parliament. I actually have met her and like her even if she isn't my political cup of tea ( and no I havent slept with her before u ask). Whether someone who has only been in parliament 6 months is the right choice for the Tories is open to question... whether anyone is has to be debatable, because conservatism doesn't tune very well with the Scottish mentality, culture or tradition, but to elect an openly lesbian woman to the job of leader is quite a brave thing for them to do and well done them..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/nov/04/scottish-conservatives-elect-gay-leader?INTCMP=SRCH

[Gearbox]

Well a carrot&stick is better than nothing though. I doubt that wagging our fingers and shouting "Shame on you!", would do much. Hit em where it hurts! Right in the financial kisser!;)
Either that or invite all the homo's&bi's free shipping to Inverness. I have a friend there and he reckons there's no action to be had.:bigrin:

No it's not good for your safety being gay or whatever in some countries. It's completely stupid to us because we're in a relatively safe place.
What I would like to happen (Soapbox alert!:eek:) is to scrap 'Gay Rights' etc and replace it with 'Human rights'.
By now we should realise that Humans are not Heterosexual. In the same way as we're not blonde. Giving gays rights is like giving donkeys rights and not all Animal Rights.
If I was completely heterosexual I'd still want the right to fiddle with a consenting adult blokes tadger without being thrown in jail etc etc.
So IMO the conservatives should be protesting about the way Humans are treated, not a particular sexuality. :)
(Soapbox put away.:bigrin:).

[darkeyes]

Either that or invite all the homo's&bi's free shipping to Inverness. I have a friend there and he reckons there's no action to be had.:bigrin:



Take it from me.. Inverness is no fun.... not for the likes of us... or if it is... it hasnt half changed in the last 3 or 4 years... I remember some years ago spending time in Inverness on a training course for work, and the only thing that kept me sane of an evening was the .com chat room and some of the old regulars espesh, Allbi, the lufly Rana, Chookie, not 2 forget that ole perv Curio and course Mumsie... it isnt a barrel of laughs for straights either I may add although at least they have the chance of getting laid...

..and actually our rights as gay and bi people are locked up in our human rights as British people within the EU.. gay and bi rights are part of human rights and we should never make the mistake of thinking that they are separate from them.. we allow separation at our peril..

I am no Tory, but on gay rights Cameron is just about passable... but on the aspect of human rights as a whole he is as risible and trustworthy as Tories generally are.. certainly when it comes to the human rights of the people he is supposed to govern. In time I expect his attitude to gay rights to be set aside as Toryism's historical animosity towards it catches up with him.. they are storing it all up in their long memories and when the time comes, it will be used together with other unTorylike transgressions to cause his downfall..

.

[DuckiesDarling]

The sad thing is you can't have it both ways. The only other way for a foreign goverment to interefere in areas with appalling human rights violations is war. You don't agree with war, you don't agree with sanctions, both will have "collateral damage".


Another sad thing is that most of the aid that is sent to countries never reaches the people, it is taken and sold on black market or stockpiled for goverment use.

With Cameron singling it out for just homosexuality it does kinda make me shake my head and wonder if he would get more support if he just said "human rights violations".

[tenni]

One of the issues that I see is that every country who gives foreign aid seems to have strings attached. If it isn't Cameron attaching strings to the aid connected with human rights issues connected to homosexuality, it is Canada's government attempting to attach aid supposedly for mothers/women with strings stating that the aid company will not supply birth control info and/ or devices. Canada's Conservative government will not increase funds to UNESCO for recognizing Palestine and permitting it to be involved in UNESCO. That is one step up from the US cutting aid to UNESCO because UNESCO has accepted Palestine as a member (state).

Which ones should be supported? The ones that "we" believe are right?...right!:bigrin::eek:

As far as perceiving GLBT rights as human rights I fear that waters down any impact of specific needs. Human Rights is too vague as outlined in the UN Charter of Human Rights based on gender and equal rights regardless of gender. Human Rights have been proposed for such things as the "right to drinkable water", the right to food, etc. I'm not saying no to those rights but I don't think that it will prevent wars within the next twenty years fought over who own drinkable water and who has a right to take it from those countries that have a lot of drinkable water.

[Long Duck Dong]

finding a problem is easy, finding a solution is not......

the issue is one of standard practice, the other is to send the troops in..... so what is the solution that works best.......

by a issue of standard practice, I am referring to the practice of cutting aid to countries, it seems to be a way of making a stance without looking bad.... " hey guys, if we cut aid off to this country, they should think more seriously about coming to the party, so lets refer to it as cutting aid off instead of starving people in their 10's of 1000's"

strangely enuf its very similar to the * do as i say or get the bash * type thinking that the school bullies used to use when I was at school, and if I am not mistaken, most countries will not stand up to the bullies, they will say * bugger this, I will go pick on the lil kid down the road * or a countries version of cut off the aid, we will make sure that those whom need the aid the most, will be the ones that will not get it, if you restrict the aid to us "

part of the trouble for the people in countries that are against homosexuality, standing up for your rights, is not a safe way of doing things, and cos they lack the support in numbers of us, at home, in our computer chairs, most of their attempts to stand up for themselves, would result in them being told to be silent or be silenced......

withdrawing aid will not work..... its simply a form of * blackmail * and who in their right minds, thinks that the leaders of a country, are going to turn around and say, " ok, lets give LGBT human rights, its only gonna cost us everything, our jobs, family, friends, homes etc... but thats ok cos we are doing it for people that we can not stand...."

maybe the " lets talk about it " approach will work.... maybe not.... but its easy to punish people in a country far from your own, using methods you would not use on your own people, and that you would fight against if somebody tried to do it to you.....

it stinks to me, of the standard * lets be seen to be doing something about something we are not worried about doing anything about, in such a way that we do not get our hands dirty and we can blame others for the suffering that they are going thru, instead of saying that we are assisting in others suffering *
it reminds me of north korea and all the embargoes on them that have not really made much difference to the people of north korea....

so what is the solution, cos we all know what the problem is.....

[darkeyes]

I am not opposed to sanctions per se in pursuit of a solution to a problem. I am always opposed to war as a solution for war is far too unpredictable and destructive and as I have oft said in the past, immoral.... but that is a personal view which I know is looked on as a bit cranky and daft, but I have written enough on the subject in the past.. I remain what I have always been.. a pacifist.. absolute, irredeemable.. and dont apologise for it one bit..

Sanctions, which can mean loss of foreign aid are an incredibly hit and miss thing to do, but are at least as much to do with trade as politics.. sanctions mean the long haul and can mean greater hardship for the populations of the countries upon which they are imposed..sanctions are intended as an attack on the rulers of a country to persuade them to change their ways.. yet they invariably hit not the rulers so much as the people themselves..

Sanctions against South Africa for instance were justified because the great mass of the people of South Africa supported them, as did the majority within the surrounding countries. That they in the end worked after decades, and forced the collapse of the Apartheid state in alliance with the activities of millions of South Africans who campaigned and worked tirelessly against the racist regime is not in question.. sanctions can and do work.. the threat of sanctions can also work.. but unless the international community is at one in the application it is so much more difficult for them to be successful. Britain's support of the South African regime, especially throughout the Thatcher years, did much to bolster the regime and hamper the efforts of the international community and people of South Africa to create a more multiracial society.

Sanctions can be a useful tool, but if applied they have to be targeted to affect the people who have the power not the people we are trying to help as far as we are able... not supplying military equipment and the tools of suppression are good start.. not sending in military advisors and trainers or giving oppressive and corrupt regimes places for their boys at Sandhurst military academy another... not training them how most effectively to torture too..

The late Robin Cook (someone else I knew quite well.. oooo Fran u lil ole name dropper u...), a former British Foreign Secretary argued for and tried to implement an ethical foreign policy which would cover foreign aid in respect of corrupt and/or tyrannical "friend or foe" and for a time this more or less was British policy.... no supplying of hardware or any military assistance to undemocratic and corrupt regimes.. no training of their police forces into ways and means of oppressing the people and supplying them with the technology and wherewithal to do it. It was policy for a short while but Cook's opposition to the Iraq War so upset Blair that in the end it disappeared like so many good intentions.. aid should be ethical, Cook was right, but it isn't sadly because the reasons government supply aid aren't always or that often ethical..

And Darlin' darlin' you arent quite right in the main about aid being plundered by the tyrannical and/or corrupt governments and not reaching those for whom it is intended.. this has often been claimed and while there is some truth in it, it is and always has been overstated. The fact is that in the last 20 years at least, British aid has been of a practical nature rather than simply supplying commodities to stave of starvation and misery. The development of programmes to help farmers improve agriculture, supplying them with tools to do the job, drilling wells, water purification, improving educational provision of the children of aid recipients, development of health care programmes and immunisation projects against diseases such as malaria, provision of better maternity care, cutting the death rates numbers of new born babies, energy provision, environmental protection, job and business creation programmes. These programmes are supervised like never before by British officials and there is of course scope for corruption.. supervision is anything but perfect... but milking aid is nothing like once upon a time and not as much as opponents of foreign aid provision claim. But then it never was most probably.

Famine and disaster relief is a different if linked issue, where millions of tonnes of food, medical supplies, shelter etc are shipped in hurriedly to prevent or combat a catastrophe... this does leave more scope for corrupt practice by unpleasant regimes, but that too is overstated. Much of what we think of as corruption by governments is often more the result of chaos as they and aid agencies are overwhelmed by immediate demand and the scale of the catastrophe they face. That there will always be those who profit at the misery of others is undeniable but most of this profiteering or milking off supplies seems to occur as agencies are cranking up almost in a panic, and before things can be organised to get relief to the right people and the right places and to deal with the immediate problem effectively.

The west is incredibly fond of applying sanctions and worse to regimes and countries of which they disapprove.. not so for ones who are at least as nasty and corrupt and oppressive on the basis that they are our nasty and corrupt and oppressive. China and others are no different except that they do not profess to be democratic, free and liberal societies.

In the main western countries supply aid only in part out of conscience, because it is needed, and out of the goodness of their heart. It is supplied at least as much for military consideration, trade and for reasons we can only guess at. It is supplied to keep states on side and away from other power blocs with which we have an unhealthy rivalry and fear, and to give western states an in and as they often see it, a right to interfere with the internal affairs of those nations. Too often this means a tacit approval of the corruption and oppression of which we are supposed to disapprove.. it also means that on occasion, western agencies are a part of that in the most literal and unpleasant manner.

I am not sure if I have digressed from my original point. To some extent I think, but with purpose. To try and get people to understand what foreign aid means and what it is. It is far more than shipping a few supplies of food and medicines to poorer countries. To end it is a very serious step with potentially awful consequences for ordinary people in places where it is most needed.

If we are to stop aid and/or apply other sanctions to any country we have to think about it far more seriously than we do and not just to create a few sound bites. Cameron is right that some countries record on gay and bi issues is appalling.. but in some of those countries, their human rights record in other areas isnt actually that bad.. they are what we would consider democratic regimes and are supposed to be our friends if not exactly our allies. We cant and shouldnt war against all of them.. and I dont think we should withdraw foreign aid either.. not without a very good and well considered reason.. certainly not those foreign aid programmes aimed at improving life for their populations.. with prosperity comes education and with education usually enlightenment... which are for the betterment of the people of those countries.. aid should be given to improve the prosperity of those countries and help make life a lot easier for their peoples.

[Long Duck Dong]

I tend to disagree on the over stated part of how much of aid never gets to the places it needs to go, and I post that around many of my friends that see first hand what goes on.....

most convoys of food etc, do not allow cameras or items that can capture images on them, as often deals are made with rebels etc, for convoys to pass thru *combat * areas and reach areas where its needed, hence why there are a lot of places that people can walk 100's of miles to, to get aid and food cos the food and aid is not getting near where near them
" most of the time, we are sorted out, those of us that know how to say nothing, go on the convoys, those that would speak out, don't " a comment made on a 60 minutes episode that screened in NZ a number of years ago, by a volunteer aid worker that was * fired * for taking a farm crew on a convoy, and who filmed people talking about how 1/5 of the convoys load was all that made it to the region it was headed to, on a regular basis.....

one of my friends that was over there at the time, told me it was all BS, most times the convoy never got to the place it was intended to go to, at all... the volunteers wanted a air drop instead.... and were told, no, there was not enuf justification for a air drop of supplies to the villages that it needed to get to....and bypassing the rebels etc, would cause issues anyway.......

you have to seriously question why in some countries, after 50 years of supplying aid and support, they are still no better off, and its not cos of famine or fighting.... in a lot of cases, its cos if things get better, than there is no reason to be there......

its the same with the token gesture of talking about human rights in other countries... and in places like south africa, the death death was huge, the sanctions did not stop the mass slaughter of individuals, the act of removal of the hands to stop people voting for a new government etc etc.....

all too often, we talk about what needs to be done.... yet we ignore the fact that there is decades of doing nothing but talking about what needs to be done......

mike hoare ( ex merc ) once said, there are those of us that do something and those of us that talk about doing something...... my kind are the criminals of the world, the evil people.... we risked our lives to save 1600 civilians in a place that few dared to tread..... cos the powers that be, wanted to forget the civilians existed rather than have the world know that the agencies that were supposed to be looking out for these people, were looking the other way

one thing that is not known to a lot of people, is the fact that the de beers mining company threatened to cut the worlds supply of diamonds off cos of the sanctions and that would have crippled a lot of the industrial world... hence the sanctions were applied against some groups, while trading went on behind the scenes anyway...... thus the sanctions had no real effect on south africa, merely the people in south africa that have nothing to bargain with.....
and that caused wide spread suffering and grief and in the end, the country exploded into wide spread internal * war * causing the deaths of so many people.....

so yeah sanctions worked in a sense..... it nearly brought a country to its knees cos of the death toll.......

[mariersa]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;213660]This week Cameron threatened that unless some countries change their attitudes and lighten up on homosexuality, their status vis a vis reciept of British foreign aid was at risk.


tsk tsk: Fraulein Doktor Professor " aye b4 eee cept after si "


runs away before the wrath of Fran(nie) begins and wet fish start flying:bigrin:

[darkeyes]

...but nat in zis case, mien liebchen vit der verr lang legs unt gorge arsch..;)

[jamieknyc]

I am sure an exception will be made to this rule to keep British money flowing to the Palestinian Authority.

[darkeyes]

I am sure an exception will be made to this rule to keep British money flowing to the Palestinian Authority.

Isn't a rule yet, but do hope so.... ;)

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;213660]... reciept...







Frau Doktor Professor Frances ist eine dumme Kuh, Mein Leibchen mit dem wunderschönen Arsch und langen Beinen.:eek::( Viele Snogs und leckt in Entschuldigung.:bigrin:

[mariersa]

...but nat in zis case, mien liebchen vit der verr lang legs unt gorge arsch..;)

:rotate: was sprechen mit keine Deutsche und Englander:bigrin:

[mariersa]

[QUOTE=mariersa;213733]


Frau Doktor Professor Frances ist eine dumme Kuh, Mein Leibchen mit dem wunderschönen Arsch und langen Beinen.:eek::( Viele Snogs und leckt in Entschuldigung.:bigrin:

hahahahaha did you refer to the translation Hun booklet? Danke ja mein langen und "Arsch" teehee ist immer wunderschonen :bigrin::)
und many snogs und lix und lix kix lix :tongue::tongue:

Sorry, I just couldn't refus e the opportunity!! Peace and smoochies and huggzz ME

[Hephaestion]

After that little exchange, I think that I need to rest and mop my brow.

Robin Cook, much missed.

'I ask the Germans not to recognise Slovenia as an independant nation for the present as it will precipitate a civil war in the remainder of Yugoslavia'

History records that they recognised and welcomed their Germanic brethren. Good old German foreign policy.

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=darkeyes;213751]

hahahahaha did you refer to the translation Hun booklet? Danke ja mein langen und "Arsch" teehee ist immer wunderschonen :bigrin::)
und many snogs und lix und lix kix lix :tongue::tongue:

Sorry, I just couldn't refus e the opportunity!! Peace and smoochies and huggzz ME

Course I bloody did. Meine Schülerin Deutsch ist bestenfalls lückenhaft .. u denken, ich werde schauen ein Arschloch 2 der Welt? Durch die Art und Weise ... Wusstest du das Wort für Schwanz in der Umgangssprache bestimmter Schotten Dialekten ist das Deutsche für die Welt?

..an peace an snogs 2 u long legged 1... huggles n kissies n lix..

[void()]

What I understand of sanctions was illustrated in tactics used by the U.S. military in Iraq. The military would cut water supplies into towns until the town gave up those dubbed terrorists or supporters. And to me this sort of poisoning the well strategy appears a reprehensible crime against humanity.

"People cut their noses off to spite their faces, film at eleven." And folks wonder about why people like me get depressed. Humanity ought to have matured further than school yard bullies by now, or so one could think. Yet looking at reality provides contrary proof. If desiring to think people, all people on wholesale are better than this, marks me as being an idealists so be it.

Apologies for choosing to opt out of reality and not discuss politics further. It seems adults cannot follow reason nor love. This makes conversation impossible because haters will destroy it in calling idealists fools, crazies or worse. There is no point to such disrespect and it only serves in exacerbating the problem/s further by eliminating actual discussion of possible solutions.

So, the idealist is left to query. "Why bother?" And others then decry them for being selfish, or lacking insight and a voice. Perhaps, the raging silence can be heard as a tsunami soon enough but I've doubts. The deaf can always refuse hearing aids after all. The idealist realizes that and finds themselves left the query they dub square one. Why bother, indeed?

No one listens. We'll go dance on thin ice to big band swing jazz until they do. Doesn't matter, ultimately I guess.

[darkeyes]

No need for despair Voidie hun.. have written it before and no doubt will again.. we are where we are because of idealists and ideals. Ideals change and in time many if not all become the way it is... peeps think we are daft and human nature will get in the way.. partly true.. not entirely.. human intelligence, compassion, love and genius can control our baser more unpleasant instincts and as time progresses our human world changes and we move on and get better. As a species, we are no longer quite the savages of past times. We can be, and often are, but we moderate that savagery by use of that intelligence, compassion, love and genius. Now we question what our masters tell us and disobey. Now we do not accept all that our masters tell us as truth.

We make slow and cumbersome progress and human society advances because of implementation and acceptance of that which was once considered treacherous, impossible, crazy and but a dream. Now we live the ideals of the dreamers of history, and in time, the ideals and dreams of those of us alive today, will become reality, and once those dreams and ideals are effected, new dreamers and idealists will emerge and dream new dreams and have new ideals which will in time become the ways of humanity. Despair not u daft bugger.. not all of our dreams and ideals will become the way of humankind, but many, many shall..

[void()]

"We make slow and cumbersome progress and human society advances because of implementation and acceptance of that which was once considered treacherous, impossible, crazy and but a dream."

Agreed on our progress being slow. Twenty years ago I had created a web site on Geocities. The intention was to sell my writing right off that site. I could have set up a system to present novels in web pages.

Sponsors could have provided a means of revenue, as in times of old, patrons. And now, Yahoo whom bought Geocities pays content providers. Only took twenty years and everyone calling me insane at each turn. And no, I don't work for Yahoo nor did the web site idea persist.

Now, I see others creating blogvels or blog based novels which are fictional. They use donations from readers, Google's marketing sponsorship, or other such variations of the idea. May look into something along those lines as well but it will be a while before such is ready.

Also heard Billy Idol's music twenty years ahead of him putting it out. Then it took another twenty years for other musicians and artists to catch up with him, and he releases the 'new' stuff, which I had heard already.

His stuff is weird like that for me. I hear his new stuff twenty years ahead of him releasing it. Sometimes I glimpse at Iron Maiden's new stuff in advance. But Steve Harris of the group tends to be rather private and glimpses are rare.

The point I am making is at times, I feel if we go any slower the stone ages will come back around. And in some cases I am seeing just that with history on constant repeat. As children we supposedly learn history to avoid repeating it, and yet ...

You say no need of despair. I'll try not to despair but no promises. May need to lock up in a witch's cradle or other sensory deprivation unit, wait out the stupidity. Ah but of course, it'll never end. *sigh* Sometimes it is better to be blind and ignorant, at least there is bliss in as much.

[darkeyes]

We are but facilitators of dreams and a few of us the true dreamer... you expect things to happen quickly? A few things do.. remarkably quickly in the great span of time.. the western liberalisation of homosexuality and bisexuality remains a work in progress but after millenia of no progress, only suppression and persecution, suddenly we have burst forth into a flowering which was only dreamed of by those idealists and dreamers of the past. A little over half a century.. longer than we 2 have lived.. it seems such a long time.. such slow progress.. yet in a historical context a flash..

Much of the world remains in the dark ages regarding what we are, yet in time they too will slowly change and be enlightened. So many things never seem to progress yet progress is made and human society becomes a little better. It doesnt seem so often but it is so. To change hearts and minds and to bring ideals and dreams to fruition takes often many lifetimes. Each of us who are dreamers and idealists know that very few of those dreams and ideals will be realised in our lifetimes... but the fact that we exist and believe.. and argue and think, carry those ideals forward and hand over the baton to future generations who will carry it on after us... that is in large part our purpose in life..

When I was in me teens, and even in my early 20s I was impatient, or at least too impatient.. dreams and ideals I wanted and demanded in place and become reality there and then, yet know now, as deep down I probably did then, that time is on the side of the dreamer. For there will be those dreamers and idealists who came after..

In their way all people are dreamers.. not all are idealists. Many were, but have long since lost belief in those ideals and had their dreams crushed under foot. Those of us who remain true to what we believe and the ideals we hold passionately dream as fervently and vividly as ever. I too have moments of despair, Voidie.. but they are relatively fleeting.. I have faith in my fellow human beings to march on into the light as they have been doing increasingly throughout human history and at an ever increasing pace since the enlightement of the 18th century. Too slow still, but we move on and the pace of change quickens almost imperceptibly to us in our lives, but if we were to live a century or two hence we would be able to see the truth of my words...

.. ever the optimist, it is what I believe and is I am convinced the kismet of humanity to be better, live with itself and its world in increasing peace and harmony, and live in such a manner where all are cared for by all and we no longer knows selfishness and greed, privilege and poverty, bigotry, conflict and misery, except in memory to remind itself of its once savage and tragic history.

It is all centuries in the future.. maybe even millenia.. but dreamers and idealists should never despair, although we do.. we are flawed and we are human too.. but we should never allow despair to so quash our ideals and dreams that we stop dreaming and lose those ideals... we are not the trustees as such of our ideals and dreams specifically, although we are certainly that.. and of those other idealists and dreamers of the past and present, even those with whom we may not agree.. we are the trustees of idealism and dreaming, something without which human beings would never make any progress.. we are the trustees who will pass on to the next generation the need for idealism and dreaming and so make our small contribution to the continued advance into the light of our species..

You are right to question whether humanity will ever learn from history.. in many ways it seems humankind does not when we look around our world at our species repeating mistake after mistake... but we do learn you know, sometimes the wrong lessons, but not always.. by no means always.... it just seems like everything else to take one devil of a long time and many mistakes repeated to learn and learn the right lessons.. but it does sink in.. it sinks in because in time, those human beings who dreamed and were idealists remembered and learned, and warned and argued, and the changes that their ideals and dreams bring upon our world ring the changes, and in time.. humanity does learn it from its history and its mistakes..