What religion was,,,

[darkeyes]

1) Not sure that I accept LDD's suggestion of Satan and Satanism. It's quite clear in all of the religions that mention the name that he was / is an embodiment who challenges good in all of its manifestations. This is rather than the implication offered which implies that there is an intrinsic malevolence in mankind, which sounds awfully like a certain doctrine's 'Original Sin'.

2) Interesting that when one Googles Satan one is offered the Spanish bank Santander as relevant - what did I tell you?

.

Wos gonna drop outa this thread Heph, cos have said wot I wanted 2.. have actually been referred to on moren 1 occasion in me life as a devil child or devil's brat an of course devil's spawn by religies.. the less pleasant among 'em that is.. historically of course the daft bugger is right in a way..the church used 2 burn peeps who didnt believe in God for heresy and devil worship on the basis that by denying God they were in league with the devil.. but that's centuries ago, but there are still a few odd bods who argue it.. an would quite happily chuck me an peeps like me on the bonfire on Guy Fawkes night to settle our hash.. a kinda double celebration ifya like.. hope I see the firework show b4 they set lite to it..:tong:

.. but this isn't 400 years ago and we are sposed to live in more enlightened times.. athiesm an satanism are linked not as such.. but there are athiests who are right bastards and every bit as evil and nasty as any religious person whether he is a worshipper of God or Auld Clootie himself (and no I am not claiming that all religious peeps are nasty and evil.. far from it) .. could point to the odd one or two religies on the other side of the pond to prove me point.. athiesm and agnosticism as well as religion comes in all kinds of different forms.. few of us are saintly and few downright evil.. most of us lie somewhere in between...our beliefs are personal to us all.. and how and what we do in life and what we believe determines whether we can be viewed as evil.. satanic if you like.. or otherwise... but athiesm per se can never be described as satanic any more than religion can be as God like.. each covers the whole gambit of human goodness and shittiness..

..so as such, Duckie is talkin a rite load of ole bollox...

[void()]

1) Not sure that I accept LDD's suggestion of Satan and Satanism. It's quite clear in all of the religions that mention the name that he was / is an embodiment who challenges good in all of its manifestations. This is rather than the implication offered which implies that there is an intrinsic malevolence in mankind, which sounds awfully like a certain doctrine's 'Original Sin'.

2) Interesting that when one Googles Satan one is offered the Spanish bank Santander as relevant - what did I tell you?

.

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!! *pause* ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

*dons Guy masque*


(guarding a speakeasy)
Chico : Who are you?
Groucho : I'm fine, thanks, who are you?
Chico : I'm fine too, but you can't come in unless you give the password.
Groucho : Well, what is the password?
Chico : Aw, no. You gotta tell me. Hey, I tell what I do. I give you three guesses. It's the name of a fish.
Groucho : Is it Mary?
Chico : Ha-ha. That's-a no fish.
Groucho : She isn't, well, she drinks like one. Let me see. Is it sturgeon?
Chico : Hey you crazy. Sturgeon, he's a doctor cuts you open when-a you sick. Now I give you one more chance.
Groucho : I got it. Haddock.
Chico : That's-a funny. I gotta haddock, too.
Groucho : What do you take for a haddock?
Chico : Well-a, sometimes I take-a aspirin, sometimes I take-a Calamel.
Groucho : Say, I'd walk a mile for a Calamel.
Chico : You mean chocolate calamel. I like that too, but you no guess it. Hey, what's-a matter, you no understand English? You can't come in here unless you say "swordfish." Now I'll give you one more guess.
(To himself)
Chico : Hah. That's-a it. You guess it.
Groucho : Pretty good, eh?


Chico : You gotta brother?
Mullen : No.
Chico : You gotta sister?
Mullen : Yeah.
Chico : Well-a, you sister, she's a very sick man, you better come with us.
Mullen : Yeah? What happened to her?
Chico : She hadda accident in her automobile.
McCarthy : Ah, she has no automobile.
Chico : Well-a, maybe she's-a fall off-a horse. I don't-a look very close. Come on, we take you in our car.
Mullen : You will, eh? Well, I have no sister.
Chico : That's all right. We no gotta car. Come on.

Groucho : You know you've got the brain of a four-year old child, and I bet he was glad to get rid of it.

[elian]

After all the main message of most mainstream churches ends up being "we aren't good enough".

I should have been a bit more compassionate to say that not ALL churches are BAD - some congregations simply get together to celebrate being with each other and celebrate the blessings they have in life..they recognize that a group is stronger than an individual. We are social creatures so it sort of makes sense.

[elian]

elian,

First let me say I love and miss you. Second let me tell you I respect you and your way of living in all its forms. This is not directed at you but at those whom do take extremes. Can you see (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showpost.php?p=212170&postcount=233) what happens when we offer a break? You know yourself I am the farthest from militant, nor do I proselytize. You also know I avoid proper Atheism because it too can be a religion.

...

One of my favorite quotes was "A child of five could understand this, somebody fetch me a child of five!" I just get frustrated at the way the world works some times. A five year old child knows what it's like to be hurt, but yet they hurt other people anyway. I am the guy who wants to set up a stage 2 miles from a KKK rally and blare Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young songs at top volume in the other direction.. I am the guy who would bring a terrorist threatening to kill innocent people to extort fear within an inch of their own life so that THEY could personally FEEL the same feeling they elicit in others (.."no paradise for you buddy boy"...) Yeah, yeah - I know - violence doesn't stop violence, only love can do that..but it sure is an interesting fantasy.

There is an interesting theory I have heard that sometimes we surround ourselves with people that sort of mirror our own thoughts and actions.

I can be pragmatic at times, one of the reasons I love you is because of your generous nature, you have a big "heart" - you believe that there are enough resources in the world for all people, and of course you are right - IF our minds and spirits were aligned PERFECTLY in the "right" way we could share those resources without conflict.

I am thankful that you, and everyone else here puts up with my crap and I am GLAD that we can disagree and still love each other because the world would be incredibly boring if we all thought and acted the same way.

<hugs>

[Darkside2009]

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. "

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it."

That much is an opinion of one professing having faith in God. I am glad you have that faith. Glad you have chosen your path. I will not persuade you from your path no matter what is said here. Guess what? I am not even attempting to dissuade your faith in God, even if you think I am.

What do I gain for you becoming a non-believer? I have established since there is no belief in your God, there is no belief in your Devil either. This eliminates you saying my gain would be your soul for an alleged Satanic master. I have no such being as no belief in it exists.

"You will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it.(faith in God)"

Again, here is another opinion. I actually find life richer without needing to bow down before any alter. Yes, I can admit there are issues which cause adversity. I doubt you live completely free of adversity yourself. Adversity is part of basic human nature, it exists, we all deal with it.

Can it make our lives unbearable at times? Sure it can. It can also help provide more robust and fuller living experiences as well. The trick lies in how one approaches and reacts to adversity. This is something I have been learning for the past few years. One can see trouble as just more of the same, trouble. Or one may consider the trouble an opportunity to learn how to work through whatever is there.

That is called being adaptable by the way. Adaptability is a key trait of evolution and survival, another is persistence. I understand your faith as persistence. Conversely, one choosing to continue doing the same thing and incurring the same results yet expecting different ones, is the definition of insanity. Go ahead cling to prayer and faith. There's an adage about a mountain which helps me extrapolate a view here. "God can move mountains, if you'll swing the pick and toil with the shovel."

I grew tired of having the same results platted up to reasonable, logical questions. "Keep asking, He'll answer." So, far He does not respond. Or I get told not to blaspheme lest God hate me. He made me what I am supposedly, I'm part of him, does that mean He'll hate himself? And I find way too many contradictions, different interpretations, various meanings for any of it to be of practical use. Don't get me wrong, I do find some use within Biblical texts. But those bits are too few and far between or found elsewhere as well for me to give the Bible much merit.

"If you do not have it (faith in God), then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

A third opinion here, although a point taken. Hopefully, I have not 'sneered' at anyone having faith in God. The intention in my postings in this thread have been to converse respectfully. I have stumbled a few times. Others have stumbled as well. We are human beings talking about an idea. Ideas are truly wild creatures, as is communication. We do not have full mastery over either one to be honest. In levity I could suggest you ask God to bring us that via this thread. But I will not as it seems you hold no quarter for levity.

It is a shame people take opinions as facts and try debating them as such with great pomp and circumstance. Well, hold fast to your opinion. I have one too. We have discussed both here, and I think quite far too long, so, let us agree to disagree and be done. No one wins nor loses.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Void, it was my opinions I was giving, I think everyone clearly understood that. Just as you have been giving your opinion, even after saying you were no longer going to contribute to the thread. I was trying to explain the nature of Faith in God as I saw it, hence the examples.

By the way, I never mentioned the Devil before in this thread, and I never imagined for one moment that you were trying to entice me away from God, so I did not make any such statement as you imply.

Try sticking to what I wrote, rather than what you imagine I meant between the lines, it will make more sense.

Finally, if you think I am lacking in levity or being pompous there is an easy remedy, just put me on ignore, SEE how easily the problem is solved. I for my part will continue to defend my beliefs as best as I am able, just as others on here do when it comes to their beliefs.

[pepperjack]

I often wondered if some of what I experienced mentally is simply the brain trying any trick it can to survive..after all, more than anything life has a way of wanting to survive..

I read Goldenfinger's response and I started to wonder if religion DOES have that sort of generational impact that child abuse has - creating people so dissatisfied with themselves that they keep repeating a cycle of self-loathing and perpetuate that on to their children by the same cultural influence. After all the main message of most mainstream churches ends up being "we aren't good enough". I was actually really disturbed by that idea..but I'm sure that I am just focusing on the bad aspects and not the WHOLE picture. When people in recovery have nothing else to reach for they still have hope.

I mentioned it to a guide in a dream last night and he basically said that ultimately I only appear a few thousand times in a few hundred thousand..not sure if I got the math right there - yes, think "quantum leap" - other words, that whether I had religion the way they practice in the United States, or had "no religion" in Demark the way goldenfinger puts it.. my impact on the overall timeline in that respect really is about the same. He's never used those type of words before but I think it's an elegant and efficient way to put it considering the difficulty in communicating with something that's "not there".

Having said that I know that I would have been a lot happier if I would have had a big brother or some other role model that encouraged me and made me feel loved no matter what I was going through. Of course, I probably had those people all around me, and indeed I did have some wonderful teachers, ministers and friends..the only thing with being "gay" is that if you are afraid to come out then you are isolated by your own choosing. If my parents had really KNOWN about it maybe things would have been different - but I needed them so much in that time of my life that I just couldn't take the chance.

The only other chuckle I'll leave you with this morning is that one time I did go to the Corporate Christian church over the hill for a "religious diversity" class so thought I better buy a Bible. Well, since I now actually had a Bible in the house God quoted me a scripture number to read..wish I could remember the number now but it was an interesting scripture about human vs. God controlling life. Of course this is the SAME God who when I prayed for help making a decision made a point of saying - "Since you don't want me to CONTROL your life I'm not going to TELL you what you should do.." - eventually he got his point across. I think he's willing to work with people, as long as their general idea of the world ultimately fits in with his - he is loving council to me but he isn't above letting me make my own mistakes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AL9nD-VfrA

Sorry, Elian but this was a confusing response to me.

[pepperjack]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Void, it was my opinions I was giving, I think everyone clearly understood that. Just as you have been giving your opinion, even after saying you were no longer going to contribute to the thread. I was trying to explain the nature of Faith in God as I saw it, hence the examples.

By the way, I never mentioned the Devil before in this thread, and I never imagined for one moment that you were trying to entice me away from God, so I did not make any such statement as you imply.

Try sticking to what I wrote, rather than what you imagine I meant between the lines, it will make more sense.

Finally, if you think I am lacking in levity or being pompous there is an easy remedy, just put me on ignore, SEE how easily the problem is solved. I for my part will continue to defend my beliefs as best as I am able, just as others on here do when it comes to their beliefs.
All of your posts here, Darkside, from what I've seen, have been very articulate and lucid. Those who don't believe will always find a way to muddy the waters, confuse the issue.

[pepperjack]

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. If you do not have it, then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it, you will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it. "

"Faith in God is a wondrous thing, if you have it."

That much is an opinion of one professing having faith in God. I am glad you have that faith. Glad you have chosen your path. I will not persuade you from your path no matter what is said here. Guess what? I am not even attempting to dissuade your faith in God, even if you think I am.

What do I gain for you becoming a non-believer? I have established since there is no belief in your God, there is no belief in your Devil either. This eliminates you saying my gain would be your soul for an alleged Satanic master. I have no such being as no belief in it exists.

"You will know your life will be immeasurably poorer without it.(faith in God)"

Again, here is another opinion. I actually find life richer without needing to bow down before any alter. Yes, I can admit there are issues which cause adversity. I doubt you live completely free of adversity yourself. Adversity is part of basic human nature, it exists, we all deal with it.

Can it make our lives unbearable at times? Sure it can. It can also help provide more robust and fuller living experiences as well. The trick lies in how one approaches and reacts to adversity. This is something I have been learning for the past few years. One can see trouble as just more of the same, trouble. Or one may consider the trouble an opportunity to learn how to work through whatever is there.

That is called being adaptable by the way. Adaptability is a key trait of evolution and survival, another is persistence. I understand your faith as persistence. Conversely, one choosing to continue doing the same thing and incurring the same results yet expecting different ones, is the definition of insanity. Go ahead cling to prayer and faith. There's an adage about a mountain which helps me extrapolate a view here. "God can move mountains, if you'll swing the pick and toil with the shovel."

I grew tired of having the same results platted up to reasonable, logical questions. "Keep asking, He'll answer." So, far He does not respond. Or I get told not to blaspheme lest God hate me. He made me what I am supposedly, I'm part of him, does that mean He'll hate himself? And I find way too many contradictions, different interpretations, various meanings for any of it to be of practical use. Don't get me wrong, I do find some use within Biblical texts. But those bits are too few and far between or found elsewhere as well for me to give the Bible much merit.

"If you do not have it (faith in God), then no amount of sneering at those who do can help you understand the affect it has in their lives."

A third opinion here, although a point taken. Hopefully, I have not 'sneered' at anyone having faith in God. The intention in my postings in this thread have been to converse respectfully. I have stumbled a few times. Others have stumbled as well. We are human beings talking about an idea. Ideas are truly wild creatures, as is communication. We do not have full mastery over either one to be honest. In levity I could suggest you ask God to bring us that via this thread. But I will not as it seems you hold no quarter for levity.

It is a shame people take opinions as facts and try debating them as such with great pomp and circumstance. Well, hold fast to your opinion. I have one too. We have discussed both here, and I think quite far too long, so, let us agree to disagree and be done. No one wins nor loses.

God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode; and I see contradictions in arguments of non-believers constantly!

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, you can't say that without explaining that claim. I know nothing of satanism but to make such an inflammatory statement begs the question why was it made?

Most athiests I know, remove the word God or Jesus from their beliefs and it is more like Christianity except the very few I know who were brought up within other cultures and religions.

if you read what I posted.... it matchs what you say....

if you remove the word satan from satanism, there is no difference between many satanists and atheists.....
as the beliefs are the same, there is no higher being, there is no divine being, no heaven or hell, you are the controller of your own destiny, you reap the consequences of your own actions.....

satanism for many, is a path, a journey, a walk.... not a faith in a being, not living a life by terms dictated by a being

the following are some of the guidelines of satanism


Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
Do not harm little children.
Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

LaVeyan Satanism (The Church of Satan)

LaVeyan Satanists do not believe in a literal Satanic being but instead use the name as a metaphor for humanity's true nature, which should be embraced, and what they call the Dark Force. Satan is not evil, but he does represent a variety of things branded as evil by the traditional religions and societies (particularly those influenced by traditional Christianity), including sexuality, pleasure, lust, cultural taboos, fertility, ego, pride, accomplishment, success, materialism, and hedonism.

[goldenfinger]

just a interesting side note... the basis of satanism and satanic belief, is that there is no god... you are your own * god* you control your destiny, you answer to yourself, there is no higher power......and satan is not a being that is or can be worshipped.....and you have to remember that like many other faiths, there is more than one version of satanism.... there is the type that do worship satan, and those that do not

Atheism is so close to satanism ( some forms ), in reasoning and mindset, that if you remove the name of satan from satanism, its atheism in practice.....

interesting that even in a atheism state, a person is still in a sense, practising a aspect of a faith and belief system.....as they have faith in their beliefs that there is no being to have faith and belief in.......

we are so distant from each other, that we are nearly twins in many aspects....lol

WOW, Satan is part of god's creation, and what JW use to create fear in their followers to keep them in line.

[Long Duck Dong]

WOW, Satan is part of god's creation, and what JW use to create fear in their followers to keep them in line.

only in christian beliefs... the origins of the horned god are from other faiths, since as the celtic horned god... in the same way that christian borrows heavily on other faiths and beliefs.. and festivals....

if you read my last post, you will see what satan means to most satanists... its not a being at all, its a metaphor for aspects of human nature.....

so when I am talking about satanism, I am not refering to the christian being at all, I am refering to aspects of human nature...... its other peoples lack of understanding of satanism, that leads them to think that I am refering to devil worship.....

many atheists do not believe in gods or deities, and nor do most satanists.... they are in fact, honouring their own nature, not a being as people so often mistakenly believe

[elian]

Sorry, Elian but this was a confusing response to me.

Sorry about that, I was actually pretty upset at the truth of what goldenfinger and other folks who I know identify as Atheist were saying.. that religion, when done in the "wrong" way has a tendency to put people down...and GENERATIONS of putting people down has a profound impact on the culture of a society. I was imagining a line in my family linage of all the men I know that have been insecure going all the way back through the time we've spent in America..with each generation never believing it was "good enough" and trying to make sense of the way I was treated by most males growing up.

The part that gets a little flakey is that I do believe that there are "authentic" spirit guides that provide encouragement and training and I had imagined talking to one about the distress over the "cultural bias" that goldenfinger was insinuating in the difference between American religious values and Danish values. After all I was born into this culture, I can change MY behavior but I can't change the behavior of every other American I meet. Anyway - it seemed to me that my guide's response was to say that ultimately in the way I interact with other people the cultural bias doesn't make THAT much difference in its impact on my life and the lives of other people. It was offering comfort in a very analytical way..I thought I would mention that for those of you with rational minds who think that "God" is just a big blob of emotions and no rationality..and of course the guide is snickering all the way because it knows the way I think and doesn't mind shaking up people's belief sometimes.

This has been my entire life in terms of the way the supernatural works - like the wizard of Oz .. "they" all peek around the corner, say "boo", say "yeah, we DO exist, NOW pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Go about your normal mundane rational business.." and expect me to pretend, even after I've seen sideways glimpses of the way the world works that I play my part in the standard Dick, Jane and 2.5 kids..nice little house with a white picket fence..

..and all of this without taking a single hit of acid, if you can believe that.

That's okay though, I should not TRY to be more than human, more than what I really am..I can't help it, I have big dreams - sometimes I wish I could solve some of the BIG problems in this world (social justice, world hunger, etc) but the reality is I'm only one person with one soul, I cannot do it alone..as much as I wish i was more..

..what I was failing to acknowledge by being so upset with the truth of goldenfinger's argument is that I was only focusing on the "bad" side of religion, religion also does just as much good when treated in the right way.

Any technology can be used for both compassionate or malevolent purposes..it all depends on the intention of the person using the tool.

[pepperjack]

Sorry about that, I was actually pretty upset at the truth of what goldenfinger and other folks who I know identify as Atheist were saying.. that religion, when done in the "wrong" way has a tendency to put people down...and GENERATIONS of putting people down has a profound impact on the culture of a society. I was imagining a line in my family linage of all the men I know that have been insecure going all the way back through the time we've spent in America..with each generation never believing it was "good enough" and trying to make sense of the way I was treated by most males growing up.

The part that gets a little flakey is that I do believe that there are "authentic" spirit guides that provide encouragement and training and I had imagined talking to one about the distress over the "cultural bias" that goldenfinger was insinuating in the difference between American religious values and Danish values. After all I was born into this culture, I can change MY behavior but I can't change the behavior of every other American I meet. Anyway - it seemed to me that my guide's response was to say that ultimately in the way I interact with other people the cultural bias doesn't make THAT much difference in its impact on my life and the lives of other people. It was offering comfort in a very analytical way..I thought I would mention that for those of you with rational minds who think that "God" is just a big blob of emotions and no rationality..and of course the guide is snickering all the way because it knows the way I think and doesn't mind shaking up people's belief sometimes.

This has been my entire life in terms of the way the supernatural works - like the wizard of Oz .. "they" all peek around the corner, say "boo", say "yeah, we DO exist, NOW pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Go about your normal mundane rational business.." and expect me to pretend, even after I've seen sideways glimpses of the way the world works that I play my part in the standard Dick, Jane and 2.5 kids..nice little house with a white picket fence..

..and all of this without taking a single hit of acid, if you can believe that.

That's okay though, I should not TRY to be more than human, more than what I really am..I can't help it, I have big dreams - sometimes I wish I could solve some of the BIG problems in this world (social justice, world hunger, etc) but the reality is I'm only one person with one soul, I cannot do it alone..as much as I wish i was more..

..what I was failing to acknowledge by being so upset with the truth of goldenfinger's argument is that I was only focusing on the "bad" side of religion, religion also does just as much good when treated in the right way.

Any technology can be used for both compassionate or malevolent purposes..it all depends on the intention of the person using the tool.

Okay, 1st of all, are we talking about organized religion or about the reality of God? When it comes to 1st part of question, I can agree with atheists on some points; the church became divided right from the beginning after Jesus left: & then u enter spiritual realm by talking about believing in "authentic" spirit guides u "imagined" talking to? if u imagined talking to spirit guide, how can u believe in it's authenticity? And then halfway through ur post u mention "not taking a hit of acid." So does this explain everything? You come across as well-meaning but very tormented & confused to me. "Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man....that he didn't already have....."! Oz was a fraud! This is ur view of spirituality?

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI&feature=related

Never saw much of West Wing.

My problem is, when religious people pick and choose from the Bible what is right for them, and ignore what is not right , when pressed, they have endless number of excuses such as "free will".

As I said before, I befriended an ex JW, maybe my mistake, should have left him to his own misery. That led me to investigate religion in more details, and what I found shocked me. If I should side with any belief system, it has to be Buddest, the belief in self, and who can argue with that, one of the oldest teachings system in the world.

[darkeyes]

.. and I see contradictions in arguments of non-believers constantly!

As do we in the arguments of those who believe.. we are a very contradictory lot we poor lil scrawny humans..

[darkeyes]

only in christian beliefs... the origins of the horned god are from other faiths, since as the celtic horned god... in the same way that christian borrows heavily on other faiths and beliefs.. and festivals....

if you read my last post, you will see what satan means to most satanists... its not a being at all, its a metaphor for aspects of human nature.....

so when I am talking about satanism, I am not refering to the christian being at all, I am refering to aspects of human nature...... its other peoples lack of understanding of satanism, that leads them to think that I am refering to devil worship.....

many atheists do not believe in gods or deities, and nor do most satanists.... they are in fact, honouring their own nature, not a being as people so often mistakenly believe

What you are saying has nothing to do with Satanism.. not in its pure sense.. certainly nothing to do with Satan.. they include Satan in their creed and in their title as much as they like, but they have little to do with what we would understand as Satanic belief.. without a malevolent being ..Satan, old Nick, Lucifer, call him what you like there is no Satanism.. if Pagan, and believing in some ancient God in its (as well as we know today) original form, it is still not Satanism but a modern interpretation and reworking of some ancient human belief system... it is not and cannot be whole or accurately practiced because in two thousand years so much has been lost.. but they have nothing to do with Satan..

[elian]

Okay, 1st of all, are we talking about organized religion or about the reality of God?

Both


When it comes to 1st part of question, I can agree with atheists on some points; the church became divided right from the beginning after Jesus left: & then u enter spiritual realm by talking about believing in "authentic" spirit guides u "imagined" talking to? if u imagined talking to spirit guide, how can u believe in it's authenticity?

It's a supernatural critter, so I can't, but I'll listen to ANYTHING anyone tells me, and then use my OWN judgment to determine whether what they are saying is conducive to logic, reason and for the good. These beings have been with me all of my life and none have ever caused me malicious harm that I can tell - they DO have a way of pointing things out that I never noticed before but a TRUE guide will never TELL you what to do..the guide actually spoke about the probabilities - when I said that "it said" there was no measurable difference I was actually inferring the answer from what it said about the probabilities not that it actually said "don't worry".



And then halfway through ur post u mention "not taking a hit of acid." So does this explain everything? You come across as well-meaning but very tormented & confused to me.

Yes, as in I'm surprised anyone reading this wouldn't think I'm on acid - but I am not. Tormented and confused, yes to some degree but that is of my own choosing. I choose to test what i believe at every turn rather than blindly follow..it COULD be a lot easier than that but I have never been one to trust others very well considering my background. Traditional Christian church didn't want to accept a "gay" man? Fine, I decided to go 360 degrees in the other direction and CELEBRATE diversity of belief in my spirituality. I am learning from everything all of you say and constantly refining what *I* believe spiritually because of it..but that requires that you TEST those beliefs continuously and not just blindly follow.



"Oz never gave nothing to the Tin Man....that he didn't already have....."! Oz was a fraud! This is ur view of spirituality?

I wouldn't necessarily call it a "fraud" but I was referring to the veil of the mortal world - we are given a certain "physical" interface to work with in this world - we have a concept of space and time but I imagine that ultimately it's all very much just energy in different forms..it's all in how we perceive it, just a lot more convenient for us to bump up against something and say, "Ah, I've hit my balls on the bedpost AGAIN." and know what that means.

I also have found Buddhism to be a comfort because it's more about coming to terms with the human condition than anything else and depending on how you study it doesn't necessarily have to involve any deities at all. However, I also feel compelled to move our society forward in the great tradition of social reform that many Christian churches are known for. We just have to be very careful on what "forward" means. I think using faith as a motivator to FIGHT classism, sexism, homophobia..is a worthwhile and meaningful effort.. a lot of those ism's have their root in emotion anyway so why not use an opposing emotional force to fight them?

[void()]

God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode; and I see contradictions in arguments of non-believers constantly!

I see contradictions in arguments of believers. Guess we're even.

[void()]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Void, it was my opinions I was giving, I think everyone clearly understood that. Just as you have been giving your opinion, even after saying you were no longer going to contribute to the thread. I was trying to explain the nature of Faith in God as I saw it, hence the examples.

By the way, I never mentioned the Devil before in this thread, and I never imagined for one moment that you were trying to entice me away from God, so I did not make any such statement as you imply.

Try sticking to what I wrote, rather than what you imagine I meant between the lines, it will make more sense.

Finally, if you think I am lacking in levity or being pompous there is an easy remedy, just put me on ignore, SEE how easily the problem is solved. I for my part will continue to defend my beliefs as best as I am able, just as others on here do when it comes to their beliefs.

"Yes, Void, it was my opinions I was giving, I think everyone clearly understood that."

I am glad you understand it too. Opinion is not fact.

"Just as you have been giving your opinion, even after saying you were no longer going to contribute to the thread."

Everyone reserves a right to alter their own thoughts, change their mind.

"By the way, I never mentioned the Devil before in this thread, and I never imagined for one moment that you were trying to entice me away from God, so I did not make any such statement as you imply."

Your opinion is very similar to that other people share. They do regale one whom asks questions about contradictions, or without faith in their God as devil worshipers. I see that as sweeping generalization and return the favor instinctively. You did not need to make the statement, it has been made too many times before.

"Try sticking to what I wrote, rather than what you imagine I meant between the lines, it will make more sense."

Sure. You're of an opinion anyone without faith in your God has a misery of a life.

May I think freely for myself? I believe so. Following your opinion then, it would be altruistic duty to cause others to have faith in your God, so they would not suffer miserable lives. In doing this you bring only more misery, for some of these people actually have fairly good lives without faith in your God.

Again, broad sweeping generalizations. It is these we need to abolish because it has proven out not one size fits all, always. And this is in keeping with what you said, merely following out a logical thought process based on what you said.

"Finally, if you think I am lacking in levity or being pompous there is an easy remedy, just put me on ignore, SEE how easily the problem is solved."

You don't get off that easily because despite your pompousness, I find you've some merit to your arguments. This means you are worth hearing out. I just know, not joke with you. Not a problem.

[void()]

As do we in the arguments of those who believe.. we are a very contradictory lot we poor lil scrawny humans..

LOL Gee, great minds.

[void()]

"God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode"

Wanted to back up a bit here and slowly dissect this a little. Apologies first some of the underpinnings show though in my writing. I have read enough Karen Armstrong her ideas influenced my thinking.

Her assertion is specifically, God is an idea. She comes to this assertion after thirty years as a nun in the Catholic faith, exploring the faith thoroughly and respectfully. Her intention was not to betray nor discredit. She did however report her finding. And her the aforementioned was her assertion. Several theologists agreed with her, several disagreed.

A Sufi adage states, "without fool's gold, there is no gold." Perhaps, her assertion is a bit of actual gold. It may not be. I am inclined to accept her authority based on her experience, though. She was a nun for thirty years, obviously at a position to delve within accumulated wisdom of the Church.

You hearing God while not in prayer is curious but also alludes to something dangerous as well. There was a mother in Texas whom was sentenced to life in a mental institution after bashing in the skulls of her three sons. Her defense relied on her assertion God had told her to do it to avoid sacrificing them to the impending apocalypse. Of course, George W. bush also told an ambassador from Africa God told him to go to war with Iraq.

At best, I believe people asserting speaking to God to be delusional. Further, merely accepting violence or negative actions as God's will borders on truly psychotic in my opinion. Christians assert their God is loving, yet he allows genocide, degradation, false witnesses, wholesale destruction of Earth and so on. Sorry, I don't see love in any of that. And by the way, Christians also assert their god is omnipotent, meaning all powerful. He then has the power at his disposal to stop all these bad things. So, He refuses stopping them? How is that love?

Even children can discern this to not be love. The Christ says the children are to come to him. Why should they when his Father causes no love? Right, Jesus is proof of love, Jesus is love. Lots of texts claim Jesus is a warrior, too. He is a fierce warrior slaughtering the non-believers. So, one believes and accepts no love, or does not believe and accepts the same?

[goldenfinger]

God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode; and I see contradictions in arguments of non-believers constantly!

How so, please enlighten me.

Anyway, let us all get together in mind for the very last time. Goodbye.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/allusacities/article/864172--may-21-doomsday-behold-the-judgment-day-diagrams

[darkeyes]

"God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode"



That God is an idea has always been my argument. The idea of God in my view, in ancient times was at best primitive humanity attempting to explain what he did not understand, and articulating as best it could, the existence of all that he could see and his place within it, and at worst, the ideas of a few thought up to control others and to cement their place at the top of the primitive heap.. most likely, the truth probably lies somewhere in between, and that the idea of God, still a human invention, was usurped by those who wished power and wished to retain and further it and their control over a very superstitious people, ignorant of the world and the cosmos.

Whichever it was, it is a lie which humanity has had to endure for millenia and is so deep set into the fabric of the human condition that the lie is very difficult to shift. Faith in the lie as truth cannot be upheld or overturned because we cannot prove the lie to be an untruth or that God is not a lie. We turn to our reason and rationale, our logic to come to our concusion. In one corner, that of those who believe, there is the additional factor of faith, something which by the nature of faith in God, bamboozles logic, rationale and reason. In the other, those of us who do not believe, I have always been unhappy at the use of the word faith in what we believe. I have faith in what I say to be the truth but the word sits uneasily on my shoulders. I prefer to say to the world it is my truth and I believe in it but keep faith out of it because it is not a word an athiest should be using.

Like you Voidie, hearing God or hearing anything other than what the brain, or sounds physically created and heard by people and the world around us sits uneasily.. I will admit that I often hear a voice in my head tellling me this and that.. do this Fran.. do that.. as best I can tell that is my subconcious self.. and on the occasions that voice has said to me.. ooo Fran.. he/she is gorgeous go gerrim/'er... thus encouraging me to "sin".. each voice is my own subconcious telling me something which may or may not be in chime with my own reality, beliefs or sense of right and wrong... the voices I hear are variations of my own.. no one elses.. certainly no God or tempting Satan..

I never scoff at those who hear voices, for often mental illness can be the cause, but the voices we hear even then are a manifestation of us. For those who claim that they are the voice of God, I do not scoff because the manifestation comes from a subconcious which has a set of beliefs to which I do not subscribe, but would contend that belief in God can and does often seduce the believer into believing the voice of their subconcious is the voice of God. That does not make the believer nuts as some may say.. but it does make them, in my view, misguided and plainly wrong.. just as in the view of some believers, voices which we who do not believe may hear are not our own subconcious but the voice of God or the devil..

[goldenfinger]

How so, please enlighten me.

Anyway, let us all get together in mind for the very last time. Goodbye.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/allusacities/article/864172--may-21-doomsday-behold-the-judgment-day-diagrams

I meant to post this link first.

http://www.metro.us/newyork/national/article/1000468--harold-camping-october-21-doomsday-is-new-end-of-the-world

[pepperjack]

That God is an idea has always been my argument. The idea of God in my view, in ancient times was at best primitive humanity attempting to explain what he did not understand, and articulating as best it could, the existence of all that he could see and his place within it, and at worst, the ideas of a few thought up to control others and to cement their place at the top of the primitive heap.. most likely, the truth probably lies somewhere in between, and that the idea of God, still a human invention, was usurped by those who wished power and wished to retain and further it and their control over a very superstitious people, ignorant of the world and the cosmos.

Whichever it was, it is a lie which humanity has had to endure for millenia and is so deep set into the fabric of the human condition that the lie is very difficult to shift. Faith in the lie as truth cannot be upheld or overturned because we cannot prove the lie to be an untruth or that God is not a lie. We turn to our reason and rationale, our logic to come to our concusion. In one corner, that of those who believe, there is the additional factor of faith, something which by the nature of faith in God, bamboozles logic, rationale and reason. In the other, those of us who do not believe, I have always been unhappy at the use of the word faith in what we believe. I have faith in what I say to be the truth but the word sits uneasily on my shoulders. I prefer to say to the world it is my truth and I believe in it but keep faith out of it because it is not a word an athiest should be using.

Like you Voidie, hearing God or hearing anything other than what the brain, or sounds physically created and heard by people and the world around us sits uneasily.. I will admit that I often hear a voice in my head tellling me this and that.. do this Fran.. do that.. as best I can tell that is my subconcious self.. and on the occasions that voice has said to me.. ooo Fran.. he/she is gorgeous go gerrim/'er... thus encouraging me to "sin".. each voice is my own subconcious telling me something which may or may not be in chime with my own reality, beliefs or sense of right and wrong... the voices I hear are variations of my own.. no one elses.. certainly no God or tempting Satan..

I never scoff at those who hear voices, for often mental illness can be the cause, but the voices we hear even then are a manifestation of us. For those who claim that they are the voice of God, I do not scoff because the manifestation comes from a subconcious which has a set of beliefs to which I do not subscribe, but would contend that belief in God can and does often seduce the believer into believing the voice of their subconcious is the voice of God. That does not make the believer nuts as some may say.. but it does make them, in my view, misguided and plainly wrong.. just as in the view of some believers, voices which we who do not believe may hear are not our own subconcious but the voice of God or the devil..

"When you're speaking to God, you're praying; when God is speaking to you, you're shizophrenic." A recent quote I stumbled onto which amused me & which I now feel is applicable here. I have experienced what you have admitted to in this post, that is, hearing voices that I perceived as floating up from my subconscious; in the medical field, we would both qualify as potential shizophrenics. And I have admitted to Void that I am reluctant to share my spiritual, "psychic" experiences at times because it would subject me to derision; and he admitted to me that he was also "born under the veil", an expression I haven't heard in a while;and if that is true. he must have experienced extraordinary things in his life as I have. Point is , the 3 of us DO have a common ground here. Where we differ is where I have had extraordinary experiences I know did not originate from my own mind; I'm no less logical than u are; maybe more open-minded & sensitized. I could try to go into detail to explain but it would be futile. Which leads me to think of fellow believers who go to church regularly( I attend church infrequently), who profess to believe in God and then deny His supernatural reality, those who the Bible refers to as "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"; which leads me to think of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith when he announced to the various warring "Christian" sects of his time,"Him whom you ignorantly worship....I declare unto you!" As far as hearing voices that transcend schizophrenia, I feel like I'm in good company.......the Emperor Constantine, Joan of Arc, Vincent Van Gogh.....just to name a few off the top of my head.

[Darkside2009]

Void, try reading what I write carefully.

'Your opinion is very similar to that other people share. They do regale one whom asks questions about contradictions, or without faith in their God as devil worshipers. I see that as sweeping generalization and return the favor instinctively. You did not need to make the statement, it has been made too many times before.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah! So despite not making those statements, I'm being credited with the opinions of others, and you are arguing against that position. Isn't that rather a straw-man argument?

Try sticking to what I wrote, rather than what you imagine I meant between the lines, it will make more sense.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Sure. You're of an opinion anyone without faith in your God has a misery of a life.'

No, I never said that either. I'm quite capable of articulating my ideas and emotions in plain English. I have said repeatedly, that each person must choose their own path in life, it is their choice to make. I personally have chosen the path of Faith in and Belief in God. I have merely tried to explain why I hold those beliefs and why I have chosen that path in the face of snide comments and sneering.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'May I think freely for myself? I believe so. Following your opinion then, it would be altruistic duty to cause others to have faith in your God, so they would not suffer miserable lives. In doing this you bring only more misery, for some of these people actually have fairly good lives without faith in your God.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are not following my opinion, you are attributing an opinion to me and then arguing against that opinion, a line of opinion that exists in your imagination and not in my words.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'Again, broad sweeping generalizations. It is these we need to abolish because it has proven out not one size fits all, always. And this is in keeping with what you said, merely following out a logical thought process based on what you said.'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Once again no, you are going off in some little tangent of your own imagination. If someone asks me questions about my faith in a sincere quest for knowledge, I will answer as best as I am able, just as I contribute to these threads as best as I'm able. Scientists and Atheists and those of other Faiths can only do the same.

However if someone only wants to take cheap jibes at my beliefs they will find that I am not a Christian that turns the other cheek.

I contribute to these threads in a spirit of honesty, and to exchange ideas and hopefully learn something from the views of others, just as I hope they learn something from me. Intolerance and sneering I can find anywhere.

I am an honest and literal man, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say without subterfuge or agenda. I do not aim to give offence to anyone, but I will not tolerate others giving offence to me. If that bothers you then don't talk to me.

I do not try to persuade anyone on these forums to Christianity, as I believe it is a personal choice each person must make for themselves. Where confusion has arisen on what the Bible teaches, I have merely sought to clarify, as I personally have understood it.

I do not mock or deride the Atheism of you or Fran or the Pagan beliefs of others on this site, I expect the same curtesy in return.

[pepperjack]

"God is more than an idea; and He has responded to me very often when I was not in prayer mode"

Wanted to back up a bit here and slowly dissect this a little. Apologies first some of the underpinnings show though in my writing. I have read enough Karen Armstrong her ideas influenced my thinking.

Her assertion is specifically, God is an idea. She comes to this assertion after thirty years as a nun in the Catholic faith, exploring the faith thoroughly and respectfully. Her intention was not to betray nor discredit. She did however report her finding. And her the aforementioned was her assertion. Several theologists agreed with her, several disagreed.

A Sufi adage states, "without fool's gold, there is no gold." Perhaps, her assertion is a bit of actual gold. It may not be. I am inclined to accept her authority based on her experience, though. She was a nun for thirty years, obviously at a position to delve within accumulated wisdom of the Church.

You hearing God while not in prayer is curious but also alludes to something dangerous as well. There was a mother in Texas whom was sentenced to life in a mental institution after bashing in the skulls of her three sons. Her defense relied on her assertion God had told her to do it to avoid sacrificing them to the impending apocalypse. Of course, George W. bush also told an ambassador from Africa God told him to go to war with Iraq.

At best, I believe people asserting speaking to God to be delusional. Further, merely accepting violence or negative actions as God's will borders on truly psychotic in my opinion. Christians assert their God is loving, yet he allows genocide, degradation, false witnesses, wholesale destruction of Earth and so on. Sorry, I don't see love in any of that. And by the way, Christians also assert their god is omnipotent, meaning all powerful. He then has the power at his disposal to stop all these bad things. So, He refuses stopping them? How is that love?

Even children can discern this to not be love. The Christ says the children are to come to him. Why should they when his Father causes no love? Right, Jesus is proof of love, Jesus is love. Lots of texts claim Jesus is a warrior, too. He is a fierce warrior slaughtering the non-believers. So, one believes and accepts no love, or does not believe and accepts the same?
St. Matthew, Chap:24, Void. A recent tragedy in my community was the cruel, inhumane, beating death of of a 14 month old infant at the hands of a young,single mother's boyfriend; this morning, when I got my paper, breaking news was , mother was also complicit, charged w/felony murder! don't we all, believer & unbeliever alike, struggle with this harsh reality?

[pepperjack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI&feature=related

Never saw much of West Wing.

My problem is, when religious people pick and choose from the Bible what is right for them, and ignore what is not right , when pressed, they have endless number of excuses such as "free will".

As I said before, I befriended an ex JW, maybe my mistake, should have left him to his own misery. That led me to investigate religion in more details, and what I found shocked me. If I should side with any belief system, it has to be Buddest, the belief in self, and who can argue with that, one of the oldest teachings system in the world.
"your problem w/religious people".....how is that any different from an unbeliever who quotes an excerpt from a secular book, written by a favorite author, in order to validate his point of view? I have a book, the 1st ever to compare all of the incredibly similar teachings between Jesus & Bhudda; there is a school of thought out there that theorizes that they studied together during what is known as the hidden years of Jesus, that span of unrecorded history between the ages of 12-30.And u prove my point of some atheists contradicting themselves;u're so logical & enlightened and yet u deny free will, something u exercise each day with the 1st conscious thought u experience when u awaken in the morning.

[Long Duck Dong]

What you are saying has nothing to do with Satanism.. not in its pure sense.. certainly nothing to do with Satan.. they include Satan in their creed and in their title as much as they like, but they have little to do with what we would understand as Satanic belief.. without a malevolent being ..Satan, old Nick, Lucifer, call him what you like there is no Satanism.. if Pagan, and believing in some ancient God in its (as well as we know today) original form, it is still not Satanism but a modern interpretation and reworking of some ancient human belief system... it is not and cannot be whole or accurately practiced because in two thousand years so much has been lost.. but they have nothing to do with Satan..

what I am saying has nothing to do with satanism ????

excuse me fran, but what you are saying is that unless satanists act in the manner that you deem that they should be acting... they are not actually satanists cos their ways do not fit your opinion of how they should be acting and thinking..... and that is worshipping satan as a being, a deity....

the original being that the christians created into satan, is the manifestion of free will and choice, rebellion against set standards, the freedom to make ones own destiny...... and they built it upon the image of other faiths and religions deities.......

hence satanist beliefs are not about a deity, they embrace the idea of free will and choice..... the satanic bible tells you NOT to worship deities, NOT to have gods, NOT to bow your knee to any other being, mortal or otherwise...

the fact that you do not want to accept the way that many satanists live and think, because it doesn't fit your image of satanism... doesn't mean that they are not satanists... it means that you want to have a understanding of satanism that doesn't match what many satanists believe.... and then you want to tell others they are wrong....

btw my info on satanism is not net found.... the info I copied and pasted cos i was too lazy to type it all out... but my first experience with satanism was at the age of 13 and I have had contact with satanists for 28 years...

[goldenfinger]

"your problem w/religious people".....how is that any different from an unbeliever who quotes an excerpt from a secular book, written by a favorite author, in order to validate his point of view? I have a book, the 1st ever to compare all of the incredibly similar teachings between Jesus & Bhudda; there is a school of thought out there that theorizes that they studied together during what is known as the hidden years of Jesus, that span of unrecorded history between the ages of 12-30.And u prove my point of some atheists contradicting themselves;u're so logical & enlightened and yet u deny free will, something u exercise each day with the 1st conscious thought u experience when u awaken in the morning.

Could you please point me to a contradiction between two atheist groups, I have not come across any "bible of disbeleif" where two verses contradict each other, so if you know of any, please let me know.

Please hurry up, we don't have much time left.

[Hephaestion]

LDD

Not worshiping deities and the religion associated is being an infidel if deities are held to exist. It is atheism if deities are held not to exist. (singular or plural).

If one is a bit wish-washy, interested in the standard model elementary particles of subnuclear physics and so cannot decide on existence or not until there is proof, then one is agnostic.

Satanists worship Satan (a personified entity), hence the name. In this Satan is held up as being a deity. Therefore the invoking of not worshiping deities is slightly strange.

There is nothing contradictory or mutual exclusive between faith and free will One can choose to have faith or not. In consequence, if faith is held then, surely, one does not cringe in fear of one's god(s).

[love1234]

I guess then it's time for me to have my own "laugh" as Sammie says.

This is not the loving God that *I* know love1234..if God were that malicious what is the life of one more GAY man worth to him? Why care? Why bother to ask me to stay at all?

The energy of the universe is energy and to say that any part of it is more or less deserving is to tell a river to stop flowing or a wall not to stand up..it just is. It would be nice if one day we could all just be light (again) but for now the balance (or imbalance) between dark and light serves as a catalyst to keep people moving forward..it's not always easy to witness but no amount of nagging is going to get people to act in the right way. People only change when they want to, and it was to be a pretty special change to actually change what they feel in their heart vs. just moving three steps to the left to avoid pain.

"The Devil" is the anthropological personification of everything humanity dislikes about human nature. Greed, envy, lust, temptation - "The Devil made me do it!" Yeah, not likely - more likely human beings are fallible. If he exists, he exists because we created him and he give him more power by believing that he has power.

In a dream one time a bunch of my friends thought it would be "hilarious" to conjure up my perception of "The Devil" and watch my reaction. I ended up being chased around by a hatchet wielding Jack Nicholson..of course we all know what happens to good ol' Jack in the end..

I have met "The Devil" in a dream. I didn't like his energy, didn't like being around him but to be honest with you he really does not scare me to the CORE of my BEING. "The Devil" is like the guy who TRIES to cheat at poker, badly .. If Christians think that the worst thing out there is temptation then God bless them. I HAVE met one or two entities that scared me to the CORE of my being (thankfully few and far between), "The Devil" was not one of them.

Satan of course may be a whole other thing, but I refuse to discuss it - it frustrates me to see other people capitalize off of human misery - drug dealers, drug users, wall street derivatives traders.. all things that make me sad and angry - there have been many good lives ended, misery caused for temporary gain. I don't BLAME Satan for those things though, I blame the humans who lived those lives..ultimately they are the ones responsible for their own actions. It may be like watching a train wreck, but remember - the universe does not WASTE a single drop of energy - there is no person that is a waste, and time we spend repeating the same bad actions over and over again also is not a waste - eventually you hit rock bottom and then it's time to come up <smiles>

Conversely to describe a dream experience I had once with what I thought of as Jesus - it was like getting a hug from pure love..only ever happened once - when I was very, very depressed. I do NOT think that Jesus has the martyrdom power that everyone ascribes to him, but I do believe that his spirit is very enlightened and loving. He managed to transcend both worlds, there are only a handful of beings who do that well. His message on Earth was so radically different than anything anyone had heard up to that time. He replaced "An eye for an eye" with "Love one another" .. not just anyone can do that..

The best we can do is to not look for some flaming chariot to come down out of the sky and save us from our own mess, but to remember the lessons he taught with love and live them every day to the best of our ability.

Love is the only power strong enough to confront the full adversity of what life throws our way, for you to say angry things to these people only reinforces hatred. Why would satan want to scare you? He wants to lead you to the fire that destroys your soul that has lived for millions of years.

God does not want to burn up your soul but this prison has an end date. If you do not get right with God before that day well God can not let insane angles out free in the universe to do evil. So off to the fire your soul will go that has lived for millions of years and you will be no more. You will never see your true friends and family in heaven. That is the deal you took for your treason against God when you and satan tried to kill God and his loyal angels.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the Day cometh, that shall burn like an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, that it shall leave of them neither root nor branch (nothing).

[Darkside2009]

Could you please point me to a contradiction between two atheist groups, I have not come across any "bible of disbeleif" where two verses contradict each other, so if you know of any, please let me know.

Please hurry up, we don't have much time left.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Einstein believed that nothing moved faster than the speed of light, recently scientists seem to have found evidence that some sub-atomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. So one scientific theory, or belief, stays in place until another arrives to displace or disprove it. Such is the nature of science. Was that quick enough for you?

[darkeyes]

"When you're speaking to God, you're praying; when God is speaking to you, you're shizophrenic." A recent quote I stumbled onto which amused me & which I now feel is applicable here. I have experienced what you have admitted to in this post, that is, hearing voices that I perceived as floating up from my subconscious; in the medical field, we would both qualify as potential shizophrenics. And I have admitted to Void that I am reluctant to share my spiritual, "psychic" experiences at times because it would subject me to derision; and he admitted to me that he was also "born under the veil", an expression I haven't heard in a while;and if that is true. he must have experienced extraordinary things in his life as I have. Point is , the 3 of us DO have a common ground here. Where we differ is where I have had extraordinary experiences I know did not originate from my own mind; I'm no less logical than u are; maybe more open-minded & sensitized. I could try to go into detail to explain but it would be futile. Which leads me to think of fellow believers who go to church regularly( I attend church infrequently), who profess to believe in God and then deny His supernatural reality, those who the Bible refers to as "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof"; which leads me to think of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith when he announced to the various warring "Christian" sects of his time,"Him whom you ignorantly worship....I declare unto you!" As far as hearing voices that transcend schizophrenia, I feel like I'm in good company.......the Emperor Constantine, Joan of Arc, Vincent Van Gogh.....just to name a few off the top of my head.

I can't say how the voices that you hear manifest themselves within your head Pepper.. how others hear their thoughts and interpret them is not something I can know, but the voices I hear are quite plainly those of my own subconcious and conscious thoughts... it is me talking to me inside my own mind... I very much doubt that I am anywhere near to being diagnosed schizophrenic.. many of our thoughts do not originate from within our own mind but come from the result of our life's experience, and I think it quite likely that, for those who believe in God, occasionally, maybe even frequently, what their subconcious tells them they will take as the voice of God.. that does not make them schizophrenic or even potentially so.. please don't take this wrong or disrespectful, because it is not meant to be disrespectful, but from my point of view and the view of an athiest it has to be a delusion born of that belief.. just as we interpret natural and other events differently in our minds due to our belief or lack of belief in God so we interpret what our mind tells us.. in fact interpreting these events is exactly interpreting things as our mind tells us is it not?

..and as for opening yourself to derision should you share your experiences, you may very well do just that... from among believers in God as well as those who do not believe.. but not from me I hope.. you would however, open yourself to an athiest's healthy dose of scepticism.. :)

[darkeyes]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Einstein believed that nothing moved faster than the speed of light, recently scientists seem to have found evidence that some sub-atomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. So one scientific theory, or belief, stays in place until another arrives to displace or disprove it. Such is the nature of science. Was that quick enough for you?

Darkside, there is no contradiction in the idea and claim that there is no God just as there is none in the claim that there is.. however, there can be and often are contradictions in how we argue that belief, just as there are in the arguments of those who believe in God. I think that is the point that was being made...

[darkeyes]

what I am saying has nothing to do with satanism ????

excuse me fran, but what you are saying is that unless satanists act in the manner that you deem that they should be acting... they are not actually satanists cos their ways do not fit your opinion of how they should be acting and thinking..... and that is worshipping satan as a being, a deity....

the original being that the christians created into satan, is the manifestion of free will and choice, rebellion against set standards, the freedom to make ones own destiny...... and they built it upon the image of other faiths and religions deities.......

hence satanist beliefs are not about a deity, they embrace the idea of free will and choice..... the satanic bible tells you NOT to worship deities, NOT to have gods, NOT to bow your knee to any other being, mortal or otherwise...

the fact that you do not want to accept the way that many satanists live and think, because it doesn't fit your image of satanism... doesn't mean that they are not satanists... it means that you want to have a understanding of satanism that doesn't match what many satanists believe.... and then you want to tell others they are wrong....

btw my info on satanism is not net found.... the info I copied and pasted cos i was too lazy to type it all out... but my first experience with satanism was at the age of 13 and I have had contact with satanists for 28 years...

My contention is Duckie babes, without Satan there can be no Satanism...groups can call themselves what they like but without belief in Satan, groups that call themselves satanic are not satanist..

[Long Duck Dong]

My contention is Duckie babes, without Satan there can be no Satanism...groups can call themselves what they like but without belief in Satan, groups that call themselves satanic are not satanist..

satan is not a being, my dear, its a idealogy...... in the same way that buddahism is not the worship of buddha.. its a ideology.....

the christians created a being, they gave a image to a ideology, to give it substance, to give people something more tangible to fear... as fear of a idea is not as effective as fear of a image or a form ......

its like athiests... there is nothing to believe in.... but using your statement, there must be a thing called athie ( sp ) in order for athiests to have a belief in athiesm.....and there isn't cos its a ideology

its why lesbians are portrayed as man hating females when people want a reason to oppose them..... its why gay males are portrayed as effeminate... you create a image to enhance feelings in people.......

[pepperjack]

I can't say how the voices that you hear manifest themselves within your head Pepper.. how others hear their thoughts and interpret them is not something I can know, but the voices I hear are quite plainly those of my own subconcious and conscious thoughts... it is me talking to me inside my own mind... I very much doubt that I am anywhere near to being diagnosed schizophrenic.. many of our thoughts do not originate from within our own mind but come from the result of our life's experience, and I think it quite likely that, for those who believe in God, occasionally, maybe even frequently, what their subconcious tells them they will take as the voice of God.. that does not make them schizophrenic or even potentially so.. please don't take this wrong or disrespectful, because it is not meant to be disrespectful, but from my point of view and the view of an athiest it has to be a delusion born of that belief.. just as we interpret natural and other events differently in our minds due to our belief or lack of belief in God so we interpret what our mind tells us.. in fact interpreting these events is exactly interpreting things as our mind tells us is it not?

..and as for opening yourself to derision should you share your experiences, you may very well do just that... from among believers in God as well as those who do not believe.. but not from me I hope.. you would however, open yourself to an athiest's healthy dose of scepticism.. :)

Which is why I said it would be futile for me to try to explain; I'm very open-minded but also questioning, discerning with likewise healthy skepticism. I've been told by friends I'm a natural detective.

[void()]

Darkside - Points taken and fair enough.

pepperjack - Yes unfortunately, we all do share in tragedy and atrocity.

Denied free will here also. Me and the wife discussed this no end. She
pointed something out which makes sense. One needn't accept anything
from any believer. One is free to believe it or not, and that is one's
free will. This means free will exists.

Thank you for the bit of prodding to further examine beliefs. Now, have
a better understanding of free will. Perhaps, it was explained too
simply to me before. I am stubborn old mule, learns it the hard way or
not at all.

[Hephaestion]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Einstein believed that nothing moved faster than the speed of light, recently scientists seem to have found evidence that some sub-atomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. So one scientific theory, or belief, stays in place until another arrives to displace or disprove it. Such is the nature of science. Was that quick enough for you?

The correct situaiton is that there is an anomaly in the results which needs resolving. Whether it is possible to exceed the speed of light and if so under what conditions remains to be seen.

[darkeyes]

Which is why I said it would be futile for me to try to explain;

Have been ponderin' this point a lil an had a chat over coffee with a colleague at school who deals with religious education.. we agree on this.. openin up 2 peeps and the world about ur experiences (revelations can we call em that?) may open u up to ridicule... just how much u open up depends on just how deeply ur faith is and how strong a person u are.. how much ridicule u r prepared 2 take... the point is... if we are to believe many of the things we are told about prophets of old, not just in Christianity, and some historical figures, such as Jeanne D'Arc, Francis of Assisi and the like, the Buddha and Mahomet... derision was a hazard of the trade, but they kept on going..

Ive often been ridiculed by peeps for what I believe (more about wordly things like peace and love, social justice, the penal system and death penatly, my socialism..my faith that humanity will come good and in the end be at peace with itself...)... occasionally in forums too.. but I keep on going. I know these are not supernatural or supranatural things, and know that things magic do bring frowns upon brows and giggles among many even most of us.. not all of us even the most committed and the strongest among us can put ourselves forth and live with derision.. I admit to getting pigged off with it myself and sometimes react badly, but I still plug away.

Someone once said it is good to know our limits.. I am not sure any of us ever quite knows when we have reached the limit (nor do I think it is a good thing) of what we will take or do when defending and propounding the things which are most dear to us... if we are ever to achieve our aims, or prove or disprove anything we believe, to hold back much of what we believe hamstrings us.. we need to be stretched and we need all the information we can get.. we may never (I suspect will never prove or disprove the existence of God) but if we are ever to improve our understanding of humankind's morass of belief about God or no God, we need all the information we can get.. that's why we debate and argue.. to move us forward and I hope make us better and more understanding of each other.. more loving.. not a Christian concept or even a religious one.. just a human one..:)

[Darkside2009]

[QUOTE=Hephaestion;212386]The correct situaiton is that there is an anomaly in the results which needs resolving. Whether it is possible to exceed the speed of light and if so under what conditions remains to be seen.[/QUOTE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand it the anomaly was first noticed in America, some ten years ago. It was at first thought there was some error in the calculations. The recent transmission of particles from Switzerland to Italy was another attempt to test that anomaly, with the same result. I have no doubt there will be much further re-testing before a final decision or reason is offered.

I don't have any problem with science testing the boundaries, my point was that often scientists cling to one theory until another scientist produces a different theory to disprove it, such is the nature of science.

There is an interesting series running on television at the moment about electricity, you might care to watch it, if you are not already doing so.

[Darkside2009]

That God is an idea has always been my argument. The idea of God in my view, in ancient times was at best primitive humanity attempting to explain what he did not understand, and articulating as best it could, the existence of all that he could see and his place within it, and at worst, the ideas of a few thought up to control others and to cement their place at the top of the primitive heap.. most likely, the truth probably lies somewhere in between, and that the idea of God, still a human invention, was usurped by those who wished power and wished to retain and further it and their control over a very superstitious people, ignorant of the world and the cosmos.

Whichever it was, it is a lie which humanity has had to endure for millenia and is so deep set into the fabric of the human condition that the lie is very difficult to shift. Faith in the lie as truth cannot be upheld or overturned because we cannot prove the lie to be an untruth or that God is not a lie. We turn to our reason and rationale, our logic to come to our concusion. In one corner, that of those who believe, there is the additional factor of faith, something which by the nature of faith in God, bamboozles logic, rationale and reason. In the other, those of us who do not believe, I have always been unhappy at the use of the word faith in what we believe. I have faith in what I say to be the truth but the word sits uneasily on my shoulders. I prefer to say to the world it is my truth and I believe in it but keep faith out of it because it is not a word an athiest should be using.

Like you Voidie, hearing God or hearing anything other than what the brain, or sounds physically created and heard by people and the world around us sits uneasily.. I will admit that I often hear a voice in my head tellling me this and that.. do this Fran.. do that.. as best I can tell that is my subconcious self.. and on the occasions that voice has said to me.. ooo Fran.. he/she is gorgeous go gerrim/'er... thus encouraging me to "sin".. each voice is my own subconcious telling me something which may or may not be in chime with my own reality, beliefs or sense of right and wrong... the voices I hear are variations of my own.. no one elses.. certainly no God or tempting Satan..

I never scoff at those who hear voices, for often mental illness can be the cause, but the voices we hear even then are a manifestation of us. For those who claim that they are the voice of God, I do not scoff because the manifestation comes from a subconcious which has a set of beliefs to which I do not subscribe, but would contend that belief in God can and does often seduce the believer into believing the voice of their subconcious is the voice of God. That does not make the believer nuts as some may say.. but it does make them, in my view, misguided and plainly wrong.. just as in the view of some believers, voices which we who do not believe may hear are not our own subconcious but the voice of God or the devil..

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I must admit to a wry smile at the thought of what the voices in Fran's head must sound like. ( Oh! yes it is. Oh! no it's not. Rubbish, you don't know what you're talking about. Oh! yes I do...), alright I confess, it was more than a wry smile, it was a fit of giggles. Ah! Shome mishtake shoorley, Munnypenny. lol

At least this thread has got her to write in plain English, that everyone can understand, another anomaly perhaps. lol

[pepperjack]

Have been ponderin' this point a lil an had a chat over coffee with a colleague at school who deals with religious education.. we agree on this.. openin up 2 peeps and the world about ur experiences (revelations can we call em that?) may open u up to ridicule... just how much u open up depends on just how deeply ur faith is and how strong a person u are.. how much ridicule u r prepared 2 take... the point is... if we are to believe many of the things we are told about prophets of old, not just in Christianity, and some historical figures, such as Jeanne D'Arc, Francis of Assisi and the like, the Buddha and Mahomet... derision was a hazard of the trade, but they kept on going..

Ive often been ridiculed by peeps for what I believe (more about wordly things like peace and love, social justice, the penal system and death penatly, my socialism..my faith that humanity will come good and in the end be at peace with itself...)... occasionally in forums too.. but I keep on going. I know these are not supernatural or supranatural things, and know that things magic do bring frowns upon brows and giggles among many even most of us.. not all of us even the most committed and the strongest among us can put ourselves forth and live with derision.. I admit to getting pigged off with it myself and sometimes react badly, but I still plug away.

Someone once said it is good to know our limits.. I am not sure any of us ever quite knows when we have reached the limit (nor do I think it is a good thing) of what we will take or do when defending and propounding the things which are most dear to us... if we are ever to achieve our aims, or prove or disprove anything we believe, to hold back much of what we believe hamstrings us.. we need to be stretched and we need all the information we can get.. we may never (I suspect will never prove or disprove the existence of God) but if we are ever to improve our understanding of humankind's morass of belief about God or no God, we need all the information we can get.. that's why we debate and argue.. to move us forward and I hope make us better and more understanding of each other.. more loving.. not a Christian concept or even a religious one.. just a human one..:)
I have always thought of & referred to those experiences as revelations and said so in previous posts to this thread. How much I open up is a judgement call for me; I guess u could say I play it by ear. I'm by no means afraid of ridicule; I just have more than enough stress in my life & try to avoid unneccessary additions to it whenever possible. Sharing the knowledge of those revelations on this thread was a natural, instinctive reaction for me & as far as I have seen there was no ridicule and even less skepticism than I anticipated, to the credit of the unbelievers. I was a distance runner for 17 years, have a very tenacious spirit and keep pressing on also. I agree w/u that love is inherent in human beings ( even a murdering psychopath is capable of it) but I also believe that Jesus embodied the kind of love that God wants us to aspire to,which means He sees us as having that kind of potential. I appreciate your respectful & supportive attitude even though we are diametric in what we believe. You're a good human being!

[darkeyes]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I must admit to a wry smile at the thought of what the voices in Fran's head must sound like. ( Oh! yes it is. Oh! no it's not. Rubbish, you don't know what you're talking about. Oh! yes I do...), alright I confess, it was more than a wry smile, it was a fit of giggles. Ah! Shome mishtake shoorley, Munnypenny. lol

At least this thread has got her to write in plain English, that everyone can understand, another anomaly perhaps. lol

*laughs*.. at times you're not far wrong.. inside me head when I'm trying to work things out and come to a conclusion about something, thats actually not a bad guess, Darkside babes... u wud be astounded at the chaos which swirls about inside me lil pea brain (or wudya? tee hee..) ... half a dozen agitated lil Frans arguing with herself.. it does get to be somewhat noisy in there believe me...:tong: But one of them usually wins out in the end and the others slink off back into me subconcious with tail between their legs rarely to be heard of again...

..and as for me writing in plain English.. borin' innit? Don givyas much of a challenge and makes it 2 bloody easy foryas..:eek: Mite havta revert 2 Bootgirlspeak... that'll teachya!!

[darkeyes]

I have always thought of & referred to those experiences as revelations and said so in previous posts to this thread. How much I open up is a judgement call for me; I guess u could say I play it by ear. I'm by no means afraid of ridicule; I just have more than enough stress in my life & try to avoid unneccessary additions to it whenever possible. Sharing the knowledge of those revelations on this thread was a natural, instinctive reaction for me & as far as I have seen there was no ridicule and even less skepticism than I anticipated, to the credit of the unbelievers. I was a distance runner for 17 years, have a very tenacious spirit and keep pressing on also. I agree w/u that love is inherent in human beings ( even a murdering psychopath is capable of it) but I also believe that Jesus embodied the kind of love that God wants us to aspire to,which means He sees us as having that kind of potential. I appreciate your respectful & supportive attitude even though we are diametric in what we believe. You're a good human being!

I am truly touched Pepper.. ty. I don't think ur so bad either.. :)

[pepperjack]

Darkside - Points taken and fair enough.

pepperjack - Yes unfortunately, we all do share in tragedy and atrocity.

Denied free will here also. Me and the wife discussed this no end. She
pointed something out which makes sense. One needn't accept anything
from any believer. One is free to believe it or not, and that is one's
free will. This means free will exists.

Thank you for the bit of prodding to further examine beliefs. Now, have
a better understanding of free will. Perhaps, it was explained too
simply to me before. I am stubborn old mule, learns it the hard way or
not at all.

You're quite welcome Void; glad I could play a part in you expanding ur mind; I'm working on that also. I've looked at some of ur posts; u're a very knowledgeable & intelligent man.

[void()]

You're quite welcome Void; glad I could play a part in you expanding ur mind; I'm working on that also. I've looked at some of ur posts; u're a very knowledgeable & intelligent man.

Not at all. I'm quite a fool who knows nothing. <grin>

What experience I gather comes from listening, reading and at times attending mistakes. Been told mistakes are just experience in disguise. Need lots more experience. Do not need more mistakes, but who does?

In passing, you would be welcomed and safe. Please let one know next time. <chuckle> I like the cold for good reason, keeps 'em guessing. :)

[goldenfinger]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Einstein believed that nothing moved faster than the speed of light, recently scientists seem to have found evidence that some sub-atomic particles can move faster than the speed of light. So one scientific theory, or belief, stays in place until another arrives to displace or disprove it. Such is the nature of science. Was that quick enough for you?

Totally lost. What has the speed of light got to do with contradictions from two apposing atheist groups. If there is more then one way not to believe in god, please let me know.
A link to your source would be welcome.

[Hephaestion]

[QUOTE=Hephaestion;212386]The correct situaiton is that there is an anomaly in the results which needs resolving. Whether it is possible to exceed the speed of light and if so under what conditions remains to be seen.[/QUOTE

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As I understand it the anomaly was first noticed in America, some ten years ago. It was at first thought there was some error in the calculations. The recent transmission of particles from Switzerland to Italy was another attempt to test that anomaly, with the same result. I have no doubt there will be much further re-testing before a final decision or reason is offered.

I don't have any problem with science testing the boundaries, my point was that often scientists cling to one theory until another scientist produces a different theory to disprove it, such is the nature of science.

There is an interesting series running on television at the moment about electricity, you might care to watch it, if you are not already doing so.

The reason for comment was to highlight the 'under discussion' situation which you agree with. That's good.

I should like to offer correction about 'clinging' on to theories. Some do cling beause their egos and position induces that sort of behaviour. These are the crazies that I aluded to on previous postings.

However, science proceeds by building foundations in a neutral fashion. An accepted theory is one of the building blocks. Rightly when a challenge appears there is some debate. It might be that the newcomer is
a) overthrowing (doesn't fit the existing data as well - quantum theory being better),

b) identifying special conditions or where transition occurs (expansion of existing theory / phase identificaiton / alternative or temporary physiological pathways) ,

c) a parallel situation (wave particle duality).

If the newcomer satisfies all of the necessary criteria then it will be adopted as (part of?) the working model and previous ramifications re-examined.

[void()]

Totally lost. What has the speed of light got to do with contradictions from two apposing atheist groups. If there is more then one way not to believe in god, please let me know.
A link to your source would be welcome.

Practice atheism according to your choice. We each need finding our own
way in the world. Yes, there can be guides along the journey. After a
bit though guides are unable to communicate with you. They speak of
things you've not found and in so doing may as well be speaking another
language. This is why conversation is difficult. Experiences vary
infinitely and cause rifts in our common codex.

[pepperjack]

Kismet, Annika.. thats me point and that is unavoidable... nothing we do now will change a single thing that we are destined to do or that is to be our fate.. what is was always going to be, and what will be is set and unchangable..

Does it mean we sit back and do nothing and take it on the chin? No.. we are microbes.. a part of the great cosmic game and interact with all and everything around and have our part to play, but if we did, that was always going to be too..:)

OK, now I'm confused again! I thought atheists belived in the "power of the self." there is no deity; one can live life as one chooses; in this post u & ur friend are bemoaning that u're helpless puppets at the mercy of some external power! Sounds like one of the Final Destination movies to me. Just sounds so futile; so, according to an atheist, what is ur reason for existing & what is u're view of death? Sorry Darkeyes, I like u, but this post stimulated me. Cosmic game? That sounds like some sort of higher power at work to me; who's the game-player?

[void()]

Gurji, a Japanese word meaning duty yet implying destiny or fatalism, is a difficult idea to break clean from. Took me a while for it to sink in. We're all free. Death imposes a bit of a quagmire, at least for this atheist. You just cease. That's all. It does leave a sense of fatalism. Many other beliefs teach of an after state which has some merit. Hm, back to the argument of sticks and carrots, darn.

[Hephaestion]

We all have a date with fate. It's one of the few certainties in life. We may meander a little or a lot - that's where free will comes in. However, it doesn't matter what we try or do, death is there. The closest analogy? When the medical anaesthetic kicks in, there is nothing.

In a cosmic perspective, main sequence stellar evolution dictates that even our sacred Earth shall eventually be expunged from the multiverse.

All of the fighting and evolving and inventing digital watches won't change a single solitary thing about our eventual destinations

(We're doomed laddie. Aye! We're doomed)

On the positive side. Let your life have some meaning. Fight! Evolve! invent digital watches for a better existence for yourself and for others, while it lasts.

"....It was inevitable. By the toll of a billion deaths man has bought his birthright of the earth, and it is his against all comers; it would still be his were the Martians ten times as mighty as they are. For neither do men live nor die in vain....."

.

[darkeyes]

OK, now I'm confused again! I thought atheists belived in the "power of the self." there is no deity; one can live life as one chooses; in this post u & ur friend are bemoaning that u're helpless puppets at the mercy of some external power! Sounds like one of the Final Destination movies to me. Just sounds so futile; so, according to an atheist, what is ur reason for existing & what is u're view of death? Sorry Darkeyes, I like u, but this post stimulated me. Cosmic game? That sounds like some sort of higher power at work to me; who's the game-player?

*Laughs*.. its nothing to be confused about Pepper... what will be will be.. do we have free will or not? What I am saying is that each of us has had a journey reaching this very point in our lives... now that we have reached it.. and having done what we have done, had happen to us what has happened, thought what we have thought and said what we have said was always going to be.. it is our kismet to arrive at this point and was unavoidable. Just as everything from here on in is unavoidable.. we are not so much players in the great cosmic game, but pawns.

Does that constitute free will? That is the question. We call it so but since it was predestined to be just what is it really? How much power does self have in such a situation? It does not alter the fact that we argue against the existence of omnipotence.. just as an old star dies in the night sky and new ones are born, we think, do and act as part of all of creation as we always were going to. Just as a star is born, lives and dies as it was always going to. Kismet. No omnipotent power needed.

[Long Duck Dong]

*Laughs*.. its nothing to be confused about Pepper... what will be will be.. do we have free will or not? What I am saying is that each of us has had a jounrney reaching this very point in our lives... now that we have reached it.. and having done what we have done, had happen to us what has happened, thought what we have thought and said what we have said was always going to be.. it is our kismet to arrive at this point and was unavoidable. Just as everything from here on in is unavoidable.. we are not so much players in the great cosmic game, but pawns.

Does that constitute free will? That is the question. We call it so but since it was predestined to be just whhat is it really? How much power does self have in such a situation? It does not alter the fact that we argue against the existence of omnipotence.. just as an old star dies in the night sky and new ones are born, we think, do and act as part of all of creation as we always were going to. Just as a star is born, lives and dies as it was always going to. Kismet. No omnipotent power needed.

so in simple terms there is no deities, only living a predestined existance.....

christians live by the same understanding, that our lives are known to god before we are born, and our lives are lived by our own choices, yet every choice is known to him

kismet, our lives are predestined to arrive at choices, decisions and situations.... and the outcome is predetermined for all regardless of what we may think or feel about it......

in simple terms, all you are doing is removing the god aspect from your statements and applying the same understanding that christians have.... that we believe we have free will yet our whole destiny is already known....

its the same as many spiritualist beliefs that we choose our own destinies and we set in place the trials and tribulations of life.......

break it all down to the simplest sum and it comes up as, we have to control everything or be in control of everything... the idea of randomness is not acceptable to us cos it means that we are not in control

can you provide any evidence of this kismet that is tangible ? and anything other than a figament of your own imagination ... in the same way that you have referred to peoples understanding of god and gods communications with them, as a figment of their imagination......

or can we safely assume that its just your need and desire to have some semblance of control, manifesting as a idealogy called kismet, that you want to impose on other people, while denying any possible chance that their own beliefs of a divine being, may be anything more than a idealogy for them too

it is something that I have noticed a lot with people that feel the need to challenge religion and faith, they often have their own * deity * that they impose on others, yet with no proof that their idealogy is any more tangible than the beliefs of others that can not be proven.......

in their eyes, their idealogy must be right, cos they believe it, and other idealogies must be false cos they do not believe them...

[love1234]

satan is not a being, my dear, its a idealogy...... in the same way that buddahism is not the worship of buddha.. its a ideology.....

the christians created a being, they gave a image to a ideology, to give it substance, to give people something more tangible to fear... as fear of a idea is not as effective as fear of a image or a form ......

its like athiests... there is nothing to believe in.... but using your statement, there must be a thing called athie ( sp ) in order for athiests to have a belief in athiesm.....and there isn't cos its a ideology

its why lesbians are portrayed as man hating females when people want a reason to oppose them..... its why gay males are portrayed as effeminate... you create a image to enhance feelings in people.......


Lucifer is real and was cast down to earth with you one of his fallen angels. Rev: 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a "Star" (beam/ Being of Light) fall from heaven unto the earth: and to HIM was given the key of the Bottomless Pit.
12:4 And his tale (of lies - John 8:35) drew the third part of the "Stars" (ch. 9:1) of heaven (into his army), and did (cause them to be) cast to the Earth (for their treason against God):
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the earth, and his angels (you) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into Everlasting Fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (YOU that do not DO God's Will):

[darkeyes]

so in simple terms there is no deities, only living a predestined existance.....

christians live by the same understanding, that our lives are known to god before we are born, and our lives are lived by our own choices, yet every choice is known to him

kismet, our lives are predestined to arrive at choices, decisions and situations.... and the outcome is predetermined for all regardless of what we may think or feel about it......

in simple terms, all you are doing is removing the god aspect from your statements and applying the same understanding that christians have.... that we believe we have free will yet our whole destiny is already known....

its the same as many spiritualist beliefs that we choose our own destinies and we set in place the trials and tribulations of life.......

break it all down to the simplest sum and it comes up as, we have to control everything or be in control of everything... the idea of randomness is not acceptable to us cos it means that we are not in control

can you provide any evidence of this kismet that is tangible ? and anything other than a figament of your own imagination ... in the same way that you have referred to peoples understanding of god and gods communications with them, as a figment of their imagination......

or can we safely assume that its just your need and desire to have some semblance of control, manifesting as a idealogy called kismet, that you want to impose on other people, while denying any possible chance that their own beliefs of a divine being, may be anything more than a idealogy for them too

it is something that I have noticed a lot with people that feel the need to challenge religion and faith, they often have their own * deity * that they impose on others, yet with no proof that their idealogy is any more tangible than the beliefs of others that can not be proven.......

in their eyes, their idealogy must be right, cos they believe it, and other idealogies must be false cos they do not believe them...

Kismet isn't an ideology.. it is merely fate.. I believe in kismet whether we believe or don't believe in God. We cannot change what will be any more than we can undo what has been.

The very fact that we have arrived at this point in our lives in the way we have with everything which has happened to us happen is pretty tangible evidence. It is unchangable. My argument is that it always was. It was kismet.. fate... not an idealogy but an idea an in my opinion a reality. Our destiny is set but it is not known, for there is to an athiest no being in existence to know it and since it is known to no one we have what we call free will to "think", "make" decisions and "act" accordingly.

I have no "deity" to impose on others and if I did I would not wish to do so.. I live for argument.. to persuade.. I no more wish to impose on people what I believe than have them impose upon me that which they do. Just as those who believe in God wish to open my eyes to their truth then I wish to share with them mine and if they accept it well and good and if not thats life as they say.. it is not about control for that is the last thing I wish to do to anyone.. that we are controlled by our kismet is unavoidable.. that is the point I make.. whether you accept it or not thats fine.. it is merely a philosophical point for debate that I have my own opinion on for people to consider.. no more.. no less..

[Long Duck Dong]

Lucifer is real and was cast down to earth with you one of his fallen angels. Rev: 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a "Star" (beam/ Being of Light) fall from heaven unto the earth: and to HIM was given the key of the Bottomless Pit.
12:4 And his tale (of lies - John 8:35) drew the third part of the "Stars" (ch. 9:1) of heaven (into his army), and did (cause them to be) cast to the Earth (for their treason against God):
12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out to the earth, and his angels (you) were cast out with him (Matthew 25:41).25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into Everlasting Fire, prepared for the devil and his angels (YOU that do not DO God's Will):

ok so you post a heap of bible verses.... and that proves what ??? that you can copy and paste...... I can copy and paste harry potter and that doesn't prove that people can fly on broomsticks.....

your pasting of bible verses adds nothing to the conversation about the nature of satanism and satanic beliefs, other than to reinforce the idea that you have nothing to add to the conversation, so you spout bible verses and prove that you can post nothing worth reading

[Long Duck Dong]

Kismet isn't an ideology.. it is merely fate.. I believe in kismet whether we believe or don't believe in God. We cannot change what will be any more than we can undo what has been.

The very fact that we have arrived at this point in our lives in the way we have with everything which has happened to us happen is pretty tangible evidence. It is unchangable. My argument is that it always was. It was kismet.. fate... not an idealogy but an idea an in my opinion a reality. Our destiny is set but it is not known, for there is to an athiest no being in existence to know it and since it is known to no one we have what we call free will to "think", "make" decisions and "act" accordingly.

I have no "deity" to impose on others and if I did I would not wish to do so.. I live for argument.. to persuade.. I no more wish to impose on people what I believe than have them impose upon me that which they do. Just as those who believe in God wish to open my eyes to their truth then I wish to share with them mine and if they accept it well and good and if not thats life as they say.. it is not about control for that is the last thing I wish to do to anyone.. that we are controlled by our kismet is unavoidable.. that is the point I make.. whether you accept it or not thats fine.. it is merely a philosophical point for debate that I have my own opinion on for people to consider.. no more.. no less..

where is the evidence.... where is the proof... why can it not be tested.... why must it be real when the same applies to god and you call god a figment of peoples imaginations.......

you are arguing that your belief is right, others are wrong, yet the only argument you can offer in support of your reality of kismet, is the same argument, you do not accept from others that believe in a deity.....

I say that as you state that the evidence of kismet is tangible, but I see nothing that can be tested, studied, documented and proven or disproven, other than your own opinion that kismet / fate is real...... and that is in the same way that when the existance of god is questioned, people pick up a bible... which is no proof of god, it is only proof that they hold a book of ideas that fit and match their beliefs....

so i put it to you, can you prove to me that kismet exists outside of your own head.... in the same way, I can ask a christian proof of god.... and the only statement that gets offered, is that they exist to the people that believe in them, therefore that is proof, they exist....... and you still have given me no proof that the figments of your imagination, exist outside of your own heads

[Long Duck Dong]

the simple point I am making.... fran, is that you are using the exact same arguments that christians use.... but with your remarks about how the voice of god is the figment of other peoples imaginations, you discredit your own statements about your own beliefs, cos its a personal belief and personal beliefs exist in our heads and our minds....and you are saying that you want to share your figment of your own imagination, as a reality to others, as a real thing that is tangiable

hence why I state clearly that I can not prove nor disprove any beliefs, cos they are real to the person that believes them..... and to the people that don't not believe, they never will be real....

[darkeyes]

the simple point I am making.... fran, is that you are using the exact same arguments that christians use.... but with your remarks about how the voice of god is the figment of other peoples imaginations, you discredit your own statements about your own beliefs, cos its a personal belief and personal beliefs exist in our heads and our minds....and you are saying that you want to share your figment of your own imagination, as a reality to others, as a real thing that is tangiable

hence why I state clearly that I can not prove nor disprove any beliefs, cos they are real to the person that believes them..... and to the people that don't not believe, they never will be real....

There are similarities with religious, not just Christian belief, but Christian belief to take but one, tells us we have free will and that we answer for our use of that free will to the Almighty.. my argument is that since there is no Godhead to answer to, and that "free will" such as it is and can be within the idea of kismet is free only insofar as we are "free" to use that will to act and think as destiny always was going to make us act. It is predetermined and that there is nothing whatsoever we can do about it.

A contradiction in your argument and one that I have heard some Christians make, if God knows all things and all that is to be, if He/She/It knows how we will use our "free will" that too is predetermined, but it means God has not given us free will but has mapped our existence out for us..if that is the case what have we to answer for? If God brought all things into existence and knows everything from beginning to end personally I think He/She/It has a bloody cheek demanding we answer for anything..

.. but if God truly gave us free will and like a game player, threw down the dice to see what he gets, then maybe he has a right to ask us to answer for what we have done on judgement day.. whether that is the case or not it alters nothing.. even if God can only see through prescience and has not mapped out through omniscience how the dice will land...what will be will be.. what was was, and is is, and no amount of argument or rationalising by us or anyone else, God included can change any of that..

My argument is not descredited Duckie.. it may be disputed but I really think you will have to do better than that if you want to discredit what I am saying...

[elian]

You COULD make an argument for a loving, omnipotent God that STILL allows people to suffer.. I used to think I wanted to be a minister so I could alleviate suffering but suffering is yet one more tool that people use to learn lessons about life.

See ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mFRUGDY8Ao

I rather believe that God can either be all-loving or all-powerful but not both. I believe that God is all-loving but not all powerful. I know this because I have "prayed" that it would stop raining more than once and all I got out of it was "I'm sorry". Why would a God that controls everything apologise for not being able to change the weather? If he apologies for the weather, then he must love me otherwise he would say "Get over it idiot" right?

Said another way, I think that "God" is pretty powerful, but will still not go against the natural order of things.

Look, the whole thing revolves around the idea that if you want to build a productive, cooperative society you can't have people running around thinking they have no moral accountability, we humans also have other needs to explain why we are here, what happens to us when we die, etc. There have been psychological studies that show when people believe they are under surveillance that they behave in a more "civil" manner rather than letting their ego completely dominate their personality. Is it that much of stretch to understand why society encourages people to believe in a "higher power" ?

[goldenfinger]

October 21 has come and gone down here in Australia, still time left in the US of A.

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/26946/end-of-world-may-21-2011/

People who has e belief in god, how do they explain this nut case.:bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

thats the thing fran I am not trying to discredit your argument, you have already done it yourself with your own statements.....

the moment you stated about god / gods voice being a figment of peoples imaginations, you blew your own argument for kismet cos it exists in your mind.... and you are trying to present something that exists in your mind, as valid, while saying that other peoples reality, is not real at all....

you can not present anything to me, that supports your reality of kismet, other than your own thinking, in your own mind, and coupled with the statement about others reality being a figment of their imagination, all you are trying to do, is present your own figment of your imagination as having more merit than somebody elses.....

so trying to tell me that I am wrong etc etc, doesn't work.... cos I can not be wrong when I am not trying to prove or disprove anything or push a reality...
all I did was point out how your own statement discredited your own statements.....

[Long Duck Dong]

October 21 has come and gone down here in Australia, still time left in the US of A.

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/26946/end-of-world-may-21-2011/

People who has e belief in god, how do they explain this nut case.:bigrin:

simple, they would quote the parts in the bible that tell christians that nobody, even jesus, knows when the rapture will happen......and that the only one that does, is god.....

the very same book that he reads to predict the end of the world, tells him that there is no way to predict it.......

that answer your question ????

it even states that in the article

[elian]

October 21 has come and gone down here in Australia, still time left in the US of A.

http://weeklyworldnews.com/headlines/26946/end-of-world-may-21-2011/

People who has e belief in god, how do they explain this nut case.:bigrin:

I can only be responsible for my OWN actions goldenfinger, I would hazard a guess to say that when some people are confronted with the pain that this world can cause they want to believe in anything that can heal the world and take that pain away?? I'm sorry the world isn't in a tidy little rational package for you to consume - the truth is it can be a very messy place..does that mean I should hate these people?? Does the violence of hate ever really solve anything?

[pepperjack]

*Laughs*.. its nothing to be confused about Pepper... what will be will be.. do we have free will or not? What I am saying is that each of us has had a journey reaching this very point in our lives... now that we have reached it.. and having done what we have done, had happen to us what has happened, thought what we have thought and said what we have said was always going to be.. it is our kismet to arrive at this point and was unavoidable. Just as everything from here on in is unavoidable.. we are not so much players in the great cosmic game, but pawns.

Does that constitute free will? That is the question. We call it so but since it was predestined to be just what is it really? How much power does self have in such a situation? It does not alter the fact that we argue against the existence of omnipotence.. just as an old star dies in the night sky and new ones are born, we think, do and act as part of all of creation as we always were going to. Just as a star is born, lives and dies as it was always going to. Kismet. No omnipotent power needed.

There u go again; by ur use of the word "pawn" ur indicating we're being controlled by some external force. Whose pawns are we, fate's?

[darkeyes]

thats the thing fran I am not trying to discredit your argument, you have already done it yourself with your own statements.....

the moment you stated about god / gods voice being a figment of peoples imaginations, you blew your own argument for kismet cos it exists in your mind.... and you are trying to present something that exists in your mind, as valid, while saying that other peoples reality, is not real at all....

you can not present anything to me, that supports your reality of kismet, other than your own thinking, in your own mind, and coupled with the statement about others reality being a figment of their imagination, all you are trying to do, is present your own figment of your imagination as having more merit than somebody elses.....

so trying to tell me that I am wrong etc etc, doesn't work.... cos I can not be wrong when I am not trying to prove or disprove anything or push a reality...
all I did was point out how your own statement discredited your own statements.....

I'm not trying to tell you anything Duckie.. except my take on our existence.. others will decide whether or not what I have said is discredited.. but that does mean that what I say has no validity.. it is at least as valid as anything you come up with...

[darkeyes]

There u go again; by ur use of the word "pawn" ur indicating we're being controlled by some external force. Whose pawns are we, fate's?

Kismet being fate.. since everything is inevitable.. yes, it is likely that we are the pawns of fate..

I don't have all the answers Pepper.. we think we have free will but if everything is inevitable just how free is our will? Do we somehow have free and unfree will at the same time? A contradiction but the cosmos is full of contradictions... at least apparent contradictions... Or are our thoughts and actions controlled not by an omnipresence, but by the natural forces of the universe in ways we cannot begin to understand? Are they controlled at all? I believe that everything is predestined but do we have any freedom of action even although that destiny is set? I have no answers to those questions.. so I do what I have always done when faced with questions I am unable to answer.. I keep on pondering and trying to find the answers..:) And like Einstein and his theory that nothing travels faster than the speed of light.. any answers I come up with may well so easily be completely wrong..:eek: But also like Einstein and his theory.. I may not be... or even may have only a small part of the answer..

I have questions more than answers pepper.. and every time I think I have an answer, that answer invariably throws up even more questions and my brain doesnt half hurt sometimes because of it...:(

[pepperjack]

Kismet being fate.. since everything is inevitable.. yes, it is likely that we are the pawns of fate..

I don't have all the answers Pepper.. we think we have free will but if everything is inevitable just how free is our will? Do we somehow have free and unfree will at the same time? A contradiction but the cosmos is full of contradictions... at least apparent contradictions... Or are our thoughts and actions controlled not by an omnipresence, but by the natural forces of the universe in ways we cannot begin to understand? Are they controlled at all? I believe that everything is predestined but do we have any freedom of action even although that destiny is set? I have no answers to those questions.. so I do what I have always done when faced with questions I am unable to answer.. I keep on pondering and trying to find the answers..:) And like Einstein and his theory that nothing travels faster than the speed of light.. any answers I come up with may well so easily be completely wrong..:eek: But also like Einstein and his theory.. I may not be... or even may have only a small part of the answer..

I have questions more than answers pepper.. and every time I think I have an answer, that answer invariably throws up even more questions and my brain doesnt half hurt sometimes because of it...:(
But what IS fate that it can exert such complete control over our lives? I'll tell u a story about kismet. I buried my aged mother last spring. When she was a very young woman in Nazi Germany, her home was destroyed by the Allied bombing raids. As a result, she fled into Czechoslovakia as a refugee. Upon her return at the end of the war, she found employment on a U.S. military base as a waitress in an NCO mess; she worked her way up into the officer's mess,then into the general's mess, ultimately becoming Eisenhower's top waitress. Is that ironic kismet or what? But the story doesn't stop there. When my dad retired from the military, my parents wound up buying a house in Abilene, Kansas, just a mere few blocks from Eisenhower's boyhood home & presidential library. She was an innocent citizen caught in the crossfire of warring governments. She excercised her free will, making decisions to desperately survive,but it's as if some unknown force was guiding her. Some would call that coincidence but I have experienced coincidences that were pretty profound. Like u I ponder & question, & I think maybe if God hadn't manifested His reality to me personally, I could very well be an atheist also; I've definitely rebelled against Him, denied Him at times. Maybe He wants me to have a certain measure of faith in these times we live in. When I find myself questioning Him I shift my thoughts to the prophet Isaiah who did likewise and was told by God "....my thoughts are higher than your thoughts, my ways are higher than your ways." I believe the Bible is what it was meant to be, a guide....full of human error but nevertheless, an inspired work.

[pepperjack]

Gurji, a Japanese word meaning duty yet implying destiny or fatalism, is a difficult idea to break clean from. Took me a while for it to sink in. We're all free. Death imposes a bit of a quagmire, at least for this atheist. You just cease. That's all. It does leave a sense of fatalism. Many other beliefs teach of an after state which has some merit. Hm, back to the argument of sticks and carrots, darn.

You have an honesty & humility I like void. I had an accident in my youth; medical personnel worked on me frantically, trying to revive me after declaring me "already dead"; they succeeded. I must admit, all I can remember of that experience is, when death overpowered me, it was the deepest, darkest blackness I have ever encountered.

[nudeorphic]

The Garden of Eden- A laboratory for an alien race which manipulated the human race and accelerated it through genetic manipulation.
Just my opinion. Don't trash me for it.

[pepperjack]

The Garden of Eden- A laboratory for an alien race which manipulated the human race and accelerated it through genetic manipulation.
Just my opinion. Don't trash me for it.

Ancient Aliens on the History Channel! Fascinating stuff!!

[void()]

"it was the deepest, darkest blackness I have ever encountered."

Must be a universality, then. Same thing here from memories, also it was warm. Warmth may have been the pneumonia induced fever. Still working on sticks and carrots. I call it self discipline. Create my own definition of faith, by extension belief/s. Biggest question, what's the work I'm so needed for? No, I will not pray to an entity save perhaps, in reflection of id. And such reflection does not produce a good answer, only more questions. <sarcasm & levity> Ah ha, got it. I am like the literary representation of the devil, 'a listless intelligence ever learning', I believe Anne Rice once wrote.</sarcasm & levity> <chuckle> Yeah, sure right.

[Darkside2009]

There are similarities with religious, not just Christian belief, but Christian belief to take but one, tells us we have free will and that we answer for our use of that free will to the Almighty.. my argument is that since there is no Godhead to answer to, and that "free will" such as it is and can be within the idea of kismet is free only insofar as we are "free" to use that will to act and think as destiny always was going to make us act. It is predetermined and that there is nothing whatsoever we can do about it.

A contradiction in your argument and one that I have heard some Christians make, if God knows all things and all that is to be, if He/She/It knows how we will use our "free will" that too is predetermined, but it means God has not given us free will but has mapped our existence out for us..if that is the case what have we to answer for? If God brought all things into existence and knows everything from beginning to end personally I think He/She/It has a bloody cheek demanding we answer for anything..

.. but if God truly gave us free will and like a game player, threw down the dice to see what he gets, then maybe he has a right to ask us to answer for what we have done on judgement day.. whether that is the case or not it alters nothing.. even if God can only see through prescience and has not mapped out through omniscience how the dice will land...what will be will be.. what was was, and is is, and no amount of argument or rationalising by us or anyone else, God included can change any of that..

My argument is not descredited Duckie.. it may be disputed but I really think you will have to do better than that if you want to discredit what I am saying...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this the same young lady who held her Father accountable for his entire generation, even though he had/has no control over them? lol

I tend to look at it this way, a man can be a loving Father and watch his child grow up. He does his best to teach the child to be good, kind and respectful of others, and to treat them as he/she would wish to be treated themselves.

The Father and the Mother brought that child into existence and the want the best in life for it. They know that as that child grows, it will learn to crawl and explore it's World, then it will make its first attempts at walking.

The Father knows that in learning to walk the child will stumble and fall and perhaps graze a knee or bump its head, but still he allows the child to try by itself until it has mastered walking.

He could forestall the stumbling by carrying the child everywhere, but the child would not learn from his/her mistakes. The child would not learn to become independent of the parents. As a good parent he wants his child to learn and grow. By teaching his child to speak, he knows that the child may use the language to curse and abuse others, but he hopes that the child will use this new gift wisely to enhance his/her own life and the lives of others.

We can use what talents and abilities we possess to enrich our own lives and the lives of others, or we can use them to abuse and make ourselves and others miserable. In that decision, lies our free choice.

We can be pleasant or we can be unpleasant, we can be honest, or we can be liars, the decision, lies with us.

Elian remarked about the rain, well somewhere else there were probably farmers praying for rain to water their crops. Crops that go to feed people. I believe that God may not give us what we want all the time, anymore than any sensible parent gives their child everything they crave. However he will usually give us what we need in order to achieve the things we want. By this I mean talents, abilities, an urge to succeed and survive.

If Elian thinks it rains a lot where he lives, he should visit Ireland, there is a reason it is called the Emerald Isle. lol

[elian]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Elian remarked about the rain, well somewhere else there were probably farmers praying for rain to water their crops. Crops that go to feed people. I believe that God may not give us what we want all the time, anymore than any sensible parent gives their child everything they crave. However he will usually give us what we need in order to achieve the things we want. By this I mean talents, abilities, an urge to succeed and survive.

If Elian thinks it rains a lot where he lives, he should visit Ireland, there is a reason it is called the Emerald Isle. lol

It rained so much that the river next to the city flooded, crested w/river level at 25 feet..meanwhile Texas was crying for rain. Doesn't sound at all like God can (or will) control the weather.

You are right, it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of being a five year old in the eyes of God..can't help it - when it gets this late, and I get this tired all I ever want to do is just curl up in the arms of a warm, loving friend..been a long day - went to see some fall foliage..lots of neat colors.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm not trying to tell you anything Duckie.. except my take on our existence.. others will decide whether or not what I have said is discredited.. but that does mean that what I say has no validity.. it is at least as valid as anything you come up with...

a shaman once told me that beliefs are like the wind, we can see the effects of the wind, we can feel the effects of the wind, but we can not see the wind itself... and to some, there is no wind, only changes in air pressure, that we give a name to... and we give it many names, like tornado, hurricane, cyclone

I have seen a tree fall over in front of me, on a day with no wind, the reason was unstable ground that was full of moisture and the tree was leaning over already and finally the stresses and forces of nature resulted in the tree falling over..... but people will ask did the wind blow the tree over, as in their minds, that is the reality of what happens, wind blows trees over......and I will say no..... and I will tell them about the other forces at work..... and the next tree that is on the ground, they will still ask, did the wind blow it over..... for that is their reality still, the wind blows trees over......

beliefs in kismet and god are much the same, people will apply their beliefs to results and effects, and say, that is proof of god / kismet, that is the proof....
but it is not proof, it is justifying the results and effects in their minds using the belief they have........

if kismet is fate, a predetermined destiny, then that does not explain people that have been healed of illnesses that medical science could not heal or cure... so there is no proof there of kismet at work, but it fits the ideals of a god with the power to heal miraculously, but that still is not proof of god, only a possible effect and result.....

so I say that kismet / god are like the wind, I can see the effects of them, I can see the influence of them around me.... but like the wind, I can not see them...... and the people i talk with, may argue that its not the wind, its a breeze, its a shift in air pressure, its a northerly or a southerly......

so fran, that is what I believe.... simply that I do not know, and I can apply any belief to any situation and make it fit, then tell others that is the truth.... but in fact, I have no idea..... and that is why I do not tell others that their truth is a figment of their imagination... as they may know more about their tree that fell over than I do......

but I will say, that there is a lot more evidence in my eyes, of the existance of something that has a profound effect in peoples lifes, such as miraculous healings ( I am refering to complete and total disappearance of illnesses that are deemed uncurable and people that can see / walk etc when its been deemed impossible ), bizarre and explainable medical events ( such as the blind female in NZ last week, that was in a trailer, went over a bump and ended up part sighted ) etc etc

they are still not proof of any deity.... but they are proof of things that we can not put down to predetermined destiny or coincidence, such as the right amount of money in the letterbox when we pray for help.....

they are tangible events, that can not be figments of peoples imaginations, and defy explaining, but the reality of them, is undeniable....

that is what I look for.... things that can lead me to question if my own beliefs are fallible or not... and while I can argue my left leg on about the healings, cures etc and how they happened etc etc.... I can not explain them, and nor can the experts...... only the sceptics will attempt to argue them... and fall short......

now, where is your tangible proof of kismet, that I can look for..... and I need to see something beyond remarks like you saying that we ended up here, in this site and things that can be coincidental.. as I see things like that all the time.......

[Hephaestion]

One wonders if Darkeyes does not alude to the general observation that mankind has made over the years.

Our latest verison of this is 'shit happens'. More politely it is 'despite the best laid plans of mice and men..things go awry'. AKA 'intrinsic malevolence', 'Sod's Law'. One chance in a million storms that happen. Possibly it is the time for the one in a million to occur or perhaps in the background the situation has changed to make that chance less improbable? Undetected this last may be called fate or to some it is 'the hand of God' (Shades of Maradona!).

As for her father and his failings, perhaps the modern generations bear those same scars. Our children will not know the benefits of life as perhaps the majority of us have known. Have we not fought hard enough? Again this is recognised in antiquity. Associated with Spartan mothers - 'Come bearing your shield or upon it'. We all have but one real bullet in life. It is that of our own lives. Was Darkeye's father's effort, his free will, not enough? When to fire that bullet is the problem.

.

[pepperjack]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is this the same young lady who held her Father accountable for his entire generation, even though he had/has no control over them? lol

I tend to look at it this way, a man can be a loving Father and watch his child grow up. He does his best to teach the child to be good, kind and respectful of others, and to treat them as he/she would wish to be treated themselves.

The Father and the Mother brought that child into existence and the want the best in life for it. They know that as that child grows, it will learn to crawl and explore it's World, then it will make its first attempts at walking.

The Father knows that in learning to walk the child will stumble and fall and perhaps graze a knee or bump its head, but still he allows the child to try by itself until it has mastered walking.

He could forestall the stumbling by carrying the child everywhere, but the child would not learn from his/her mistakes. The child would not learn to become independent of the parents. As a good parent he wants his child to learn and grow. By teaching his child to speak, he knows that the child may use the language to curse and abuse others, but he hopes that the child will use this new gift wisely to enhance his/her own life and the lives of others.

We can use what talents and abilities we possess to enrich our own lives and the lives of others, or we can use them to abuse and make ourselves and others miserable. In that decision, lies our free choice.

We can be pleasant or we can be unpleasant, we can be honest, or we can be liars, the decision, lies with us.

Elian remarked about the rain, well somewhere else there were probably farmers praying for rain to water their crops. Crops that go to feed people. I believe that God may not give us what we want all the time, anymore than any sensible parent gives their child everything they crave. However he will usually give us what we need in order to achieve the things we want. By this I mean talents, abilities, an urge to succeed and survive.

If Elian thinks it rains a lot where he lives, he should visit Ireland, there is a reason it is called the Emerald Isle. lol
A theoretical situation I read about once: You as a loving parent discover your child trapped on railroad tracks with a train approaching; you have an opportunity to save your child but in doing so, it will cause the train to wreck, killing hundreds of people; what would you do? The answer was, "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son..." Thought it was a disturbing but interesting analogy.

[elian]

A theoretical situation I read about once: You as a loving parent discover your child trapped on railroad tracks with a train approaching; you have an opportunity to save your child but in doing so, it will cause the train to wreck, killing hundreds of people; what would you do? The answer was, "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son..." Thought it was a disturbing but interesting analogy.

In those circumstances I guess I would probably do the same, and it wouldn't have to be MY child either. I would hope that I would have enough time to say, "I love you" and offer some reassurance, and it would hurt like hell.

What does an atheist say in this regard? "Don't worry it will only hurt for about 20 seconds or so - you won't feel anything once the train severs your spinal cord." Science and facts are good, but they are only part of the human experience. At the very least I am a humanist, and at the very most I am a...err..well..a spiritual mutt.

If it WASN'T my child how do you explain that to another parent? They are going to be angry, possibly in denial and think you are smoking crack!

Of course either way here in the US you're probably looking at a lengthy legal investigation and a court case - on top of all that trauma that ALREADY occurred.

What a terrible analogy pepperjack, do you want to make me cry or what?!

[darkeyes]

Shit does as they say, happen Heph.. Rabbie the man actually wrote "The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley." (From "To a Mouse")... but it means the same.. one of my passions Burns.. but I digress..

I understand why Darkside writes as he does.. because believe me thinking as I do about this makes me say such things to myself.. so I can hardly take any great issue with him except to say this.. I am part of the cosmos and have no answers about kismet that I know of except knowledge that I am where I am and will be where I will be. This leads me to the inescapable conclusion that we are predestined like everything else in the universe..

I ponder free will and as best I can use it and play the cosmic game as best I can.. or am played I cannot say.. because I do not have the answer to the question of free will, I hold myself and others to account for what they have done with their lives.. whether I have that right we can debate but my father was not the worst of his generation, and I love and adore him and have much respect for what he has done in his life.. but I also hold him and his generation to account for what I perceive as their failure to bring about a better world..

..that same generation did much to better many things and better the human condition within their own societies.. equally they failed to make real fundamental change and inevitably that has led us to where we are. It all sounds so contradictory and it is.. I have said I do not have all the answers and I dont.. it is something I shall never have and neither will humankind come near to ever finding all the answers to the cosmos..

I use my free will or of u prefer "free will" because I do not know and do what I can within the boundaries set by kismet. Everything I have said and done, say and do may have been and be inevitable, but because of the fact that I really know very little, and I have a part to play in the great cosmic game, as do we all, I intend to play it. And hold myself accountable for how I play it.. if I am but pawn in this great game of the cosmos.. I still hold myself accountable and others, because it is how we as human beings are intended to be and I care enough to try to change how things are. What happens is unavoidable.. it may not be written but all of our fate is set.. we cannot escape it.. but we can do our damndest to both enjoy it and live it to purpose within the confines of kismet.

[Long Duck Dong]

A theoretical situation I read about once: You as a loving parent discover your child trapped on railroad tracks with a train approaching; you have an opportunity to save your child but in doing so, it will cause the train to wreck, killing hundreds of people; what would you do? The answer was, "For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son..." Thought it was a disturbing but interesting analogy.

the issue with that situation is that it implies that you would know that your actions would take 100's of lives..... and that would require knowledge of the full situation.... but in most situations like that, you do not know.. so most loving parents would make a choice to save the child, at the risk of their own health and well being......

so the question is really one of what is the right choice for a person to make, the child or the people, if you choose the child of your own flesh and body, you are placing your own needs and desires over those of the many you would harm... and if you choose the people over your own child, you show a tendancy to place others before yourself and often bear the brunt of the pain and suffering so that others do not suffer......

the correct answer is both... you would act to save the child, then when the accident happens, act to save and assist the others on the train... as that shows a tendancy to look after yourself, but when others need help, you will do what you can for them too, without sacrificing yourself.....

the key to the question is the knowledge of the consequences of the choices of your actions... and as we are not god, we could not know the consequences of our actions enuf to make such a choice

[darkeyes]

so fran, that is what I believe.... simply that I do not know, and I can apply any belief to any situation and make it fit, then tell others that is the truth.... but in fact, I have no idea..... and that is why I do not tell others that their truth is a figment of their imagination... as they may know more about their tree that fell over than I do......

...

Can we get that figment of the imagination thing out of the way.. my claim is that when humankind first begun to believe in a God or Gods, some kind of belief system other than just their existence, and grappled with what was around them especially things they could not explain, from within one or a few human beings, from their imagination, they devised an explanation of something other than a natural cause... that became some kind of supernatural explanation because they had no answers and which probably very quickly became a power tool for elders and shamans in time to exert their power and influence over a primitive ignorant people... in time those primitive imaginings evolved into what people believe today, and are used in much the same way as those ancient elders and shamans.. that's where the figment of the imagination originated.. and now it is ingrained in most of humanity and has evolved into many belief systems.. I do not think contemptuously of those who believe in a supreme being.. I believe them to be in error but it is in the modern era much more than a mere figment of the imagination.. that it originated in a figment of the imagination is quite another thing..

.. if figment it is, it is not a figment of the imagination of those modern people who live today or have lived over the last few thousand years, but of those very early humans.. now it is so deep rooted and forms belief and has created our world very much as it is today for good or ill. It is as I have said, in my view a mistaken belief.. it is not a figment of their imagination in the contemptuous sense that you make me out to use the phrase, but a deep rooted belief which has evolved from the imaginings of a very primitive people...

..and no... kismet does not explain miraculous cures.. but miraculous cures were Kismet.. and I still contend.. where you are now, and all that has happened to you, all you have done, all you have said and thought, everything that you have felt, all you have seen is evidence of Kismet... try changing any of it... and on your death bed.. try changing any that has occurred between now and then...

[void()]

The consequences remain no matter your choice. ignorance or knowledge of consequences. They also remain if you're a god or not. For example you've people asking why God allows tragedy and atrocity. Was it to spare one life over many lives, or maybe many lives spared over one? Either way the consequences remain. That is to say, "it is what it is, nothing more or less."

In my thinking, this proves imperfection and perfection. Many espouse God as being perfect and never acknowledge imperfection. Well, He creates situations such as this one which demonstrate it every day. And if one believes the Bible, we are made in God's image. Does that infer a realization of imperfection and perfection both existing, an acceptance? "It is what it is." Does it mean God, like us finds such a choice difficult? Does it imply God is imperfect, like us?

There is the grand contradiction. I have those whom believe in God, or wind say it is perfect. If it was perfect such a choice would never exist. We all would be safe. God cannot admit imperfection but without imperfection, perfection ceases being. So really, I cannot believe in God, or follow God. In my thinking this choice undoes God.

It is what it is, always has been and will be. All you need to do for proof is look outside, or in. Yes that is fatalistic. So what? That's life. We live, we die.

[darkeyes]

And if one believes the Bible, we are made in God's image.

Dont take it personally peeps.. watched a spoof of the hoohah surrounding Monty Python's "Life of Brian" on telly otha nite ("Holy Flying Circus" from Auntie Beeb).. wos brill... catch it ifya can.. but at the beginning a guy walks out from the desert with a long dress on.. guy was Jesus.. and he tells us 'bout the bible.. "it was made up". That opening scene in my view is much more controversial than anything that was ever in the film.. and so far.. barely a murmur.. mite cause a lil more murmurin' on otha side a the pond..

[darkeyes]

That's life. We live, we die.

We do.:)

[Long Duck Dong]

Can we get that figment of the imagination thing out of the way.. my claim is that when humankind first begun to believe in a God or Gods, some kind of belief system other than just their existence, and grappled with what was around them especially things they could not explain, from within one or a few human beings, from their imagination, they devised an explanation of something other than a natural cause... that became some kind of supernatural explanation because they had no answers and which probably very quickly became a power tool for elders and shamans in time to exert their power and influence over a primitive ignorant people... in time those primitive imaginings evolved into what people believe today, and are used in much the same way as those ancient elders and shamans.. that's where the figment of the imagination originated.. and now it is ingrained in most of humanity and has evolved into many belief systems.. I do not think contemptuously of those who believe in a supreme being.. I believe them to be in error but it is in the modern era much more than a mere figment of the imagination.. that it originated in a figment of the imagination is quite another thing..

.. if figment it is, it is not a figment of the imagination of those modern people who live today or have lived over the last few thousand years, but of those very early humans.. now it is so deep rooted and forms belief and has created our world very much as it is today for good or ill. It is as I have said, in my view a mistaken belief.. it is not a figment of their imagination in the contemptuous sense that you make me out to use the phrase, but a deep rooted belief which has evolved from the imaginings of a very primitive people...

..and no... kismet does not explain miraculous cures.. but miraculous cures were Kismet.. and I still contend.. where you are now, and all that has happened to you, all you have done, all you have said and thought, everything that you have felt, all you have seen is evidence of Kismet... try changing any of it... and on your death bed.. try changing any that has occurred between now and then...

your remark about elders and shaman show a lack of understanding about the nature of elders and shaman.......

the shaman such as in native american tribes, assisted in the survival of the tribe, and the elder was the one that carried the knowledge and the ways of the tribe, in the same way that the celts did... and the celts have over 230 gods and goddesses.....

most forms of control as you refer to, developed in civilisations such as cities where people were not longer depending on the shaman to guide them to the herds for food etc...... IE the priests of the temples.......

the way the gods / deities work for shaman, is not the way you think....again the celtic belief system is a prime example of that.... the gods and goddesses fellowshipped, walked with and assisted the celtic... they did not make rules or commandments as does the christian god.......

you have built up a assumption about things that you deny the existance of, and that is why you have such a erroneous knowledge of them... something that is very common amongst people that will dispute something, then justify their reasoning, revealing a lack of understanding.......

I do not believe in the christian way, yet I studied it so i could understand better the differences between that and what I believe, and so I understand what people say when they refer to the bible and the christian ways.... and thats not the only belief system I studied........


as for kismet... you still have not shown me anything that is evidence of kismet... merely your opinion that something you believe in, is real.......
and based around your statements I am to assume that when I was 16, that I was predestined to end up in this site.... and nothing I could do, would change that and that nor should I attempt to do anything beyond live my life according to kismet....

ok where is the kismet rule book and the template of my life so that i never make a choice that is not according to kismet.... oh wait... thats the same as the christian ideals that unless I lead my way the right way, I will suffer the consequences, the same thing you are implying about the elders and shaman......

basically you deny the existance of god, and replace it with kismet and keep the same rules in place..... interesting..... cos its the same thing you say about the elders and the shaman....... and it all comes down to the control aspect I mentioned in another post... the same control aspect you denied.......

you make the remark about try and change things between now and my deathbed..... well I can change many things or not change them.... and according to your statements, its all kismet.... so how can i change or not change anything to be against kismet, when there is no parameters... merely a argument that everything I have done, say, thought etc, is already kismet.....

how my life is proof of kismet, is something I do not understand, as you still have not explained kismet to any degree.... what is kismet ??? since its inescapable, predestined yet you can go against it ( contradiction in terms ) and it applies to anything and everything and is proved by the fact I live, yet has no definable parameters, defination, substance beyond your need to have that control over others by stating that kismet is a reality

[darkeyes]

Kismet is fate duckie.. you may well have taken a different path at any time of your life but your Kismet was to take the one which led you to this place. Decisions taken have inescapably brought you to the here and now in exactly the shape and form it is.. decisions at any point would have altered where u are but had u taken different decisions that would have been your Kismet... but you did not... and so your Kismet is to be here squabbling with me about something that it would not allow you to avoid..

Do elders and shaman know how elders and shaman worked 10 20 30 and 40 thousands of years ago? Even the most primitive societies are not quite as they were when humanity first began to congregate into groups and began to grapple with an idea.. we may think we have an understanding of some of it, but none of us, even those who are living within a primitive tribal framework cannot know for certain the whys and wherefores of ancient human life.. I merely make a theory of why religion evolved.. it is not an original theory nor is it complete.. and it is at least as convincing as any claim that God is real..

I know of the ancient Celtic world, of druids and society as far as we are able to glean it through research and archeology.. much is lost.. we do not know for certain how even those relatively recent societies were exactly.. we have some idea.. but we do not have a whole picture.. the destruction of druidry by the Romans was almost total and really we know relatively little about druidic belief and ancient Celtic religion.. we know some things and think we know others.. but there is a gap in our knowledge which is huge and is unlikely ever to be completely filled..

But in respect of Kismet? I have but one piece of evidence personal to you.. you can accept it or not.. did your life or did your life not pan out as it has so that you are arguing fate and God, religion and belief with a daft wee girl on the other side of the world? Could you have avoided it? You may think so had you taken different decisions and had millions of others taken different decisions.. but you and they did not and you and they never were going to.. the world is in place as it is.. therefore you could not have avoided that nasty old thing.. your Kismet... but had you done so Duckie me luffly..and things were different.. and knowing I am being repetitive, that too would bring you to a place different from this, and would have affected many things on your journey.. but that too had it been so, would have been your Kismet.. but it was not..and so you argue with me about fate.. Kismet Duckie me luffly... inescapable...

[Long Duck Dong]

as a teacher, fran, do you teach the children or just show them a book in your hand and expect them to understand the book and the contents because you are holding it in your hand.......

to say it is my fate to be here writting this... is to say that a chain of events had to happen in my life in order for this event to take place...

at what point was it decided what my fate will be and who by ??? to fulfill my fate, I would have to be following the chain of events to lead to this point..

Noun:
The development of events outside a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
Verb:
Be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way: "it was fated to end badly".

so now we come to the point of a predetermined / supernatural event / possibility....

1) so is kismet some supernatural event / power / entity that exists that lays some path ahead of me ?????

2 )or is it simply a case of accident and coincidence that I am here......perfectly normal, not supernatural, not mysterious, not fate bound predestined whatever........just random chance

I would say that you will say 2) and state that 1) applies but that its not anything supernatural or power or entity..... cos you do not accept supernatural events or entities as a reality but you will apply the nature of fate to accident and coincidence......

most atheists would take 2) as their answer, as blending 1 and 2 makes a mockery of their beliefs and opinions....

if you take 2 ) only as your answer, you make a mockery of your own stance of kismet as you would be saying that something that has no reality, applies to us all, yet you deny any possiblity of kismet being a reality...

[darkeyes]

In both Webster and the Oxford English dictionary the definition of Kismet is given as Destiny or Fate.. no mention of the supernatural .. while the Oxford also states what you have said, many dictionaries do not mention supernatural within the definition of fate.. the Oxford English Dictionary is a wonderful thing but the inculsion of the supernatural is in my view a superfluous addition and unnecessary and strictly speaking inaccurate.. we can debate that but that would be yet another pointless exercise..

I dont mock either Kismet or fate, for they are to me the same thing.. I certainly dont dismiss their reality for that would be quite simply stupid.. nor do I make a mockery of my stance but that isn't for me to decide whether I do or don't but for others.. whatever they say or think wont change my view of Kismet one jot.. and however much you twist and turn, whether our fate is born of God or is simply the way of the cosmos.. we are where we are and will still be where we will be.. that is inescapable.

[Long Duck Dong]

try fate defination, as that is what I googled.... but using different dictionary definations to sidestep a question yet again, doesn't help the issue, fran

in order to have fate, you have to have a conclusion that is preordined..... but in order to be preordined, it has to be decided and if its not us that predetermines a outcome, result or conclusion, then something else must......

what is that something else ???.... and using the cosmos as a answer can only work if the cosmic is something more than stars, planets and moons etc, it would need to be something possessing influence, intelligence and foresight in order to predetermine a outcome that would be our fate......

its not about discrediting your statements at all, but questioning why it is, that you disregard the option of something that you then turn around and give validity in your own mind....tell us that it is real and valid, then avoid any explanation of it other than to say its fate, yet tell us that this thing controls your life and dictates outcomes.......

is that not the exact same type of situation we see with religion, create a idea, then share it with the masses, but control them by denying them the access to the knowledge and understanding of the idea, and dictate the terms by what they may understand it, and deny the possibility of any other existance that may be valid as well ?????

[darkeyes]

try fate defination, as that is what I googled.... but using different dictionary definations to sidestep a question yet again, doesn't help the issue, fran

in order to have fate, you have to have a conclusion that is preordined..... but in order to be preordined, it has to be decided and if its not us that predetermines a outcome, result or conclusion, then something else must......

what is that something else ???.... and using the cosmos as a answer can only work if the cosmic is something more than stars, planets and moons etc, it would need to be something possessing influence, intelligence and foresight in order to predetermine a outcome that would be our fate......

its not about discrediting your statements at all, but questioning why it is, that you disregard the option of something that you then turn around and give validity in your own mind....tell us that it is real and valid, then avoid any explanation of it other than to say its fate, yet tell us that this thing controls your life and dictates outcomes.......

is that not the exact same type of situation we see with religion, create a idea, then share it with the masses, but control them by denying them the access to the knowledge and understanding of the idea, and dictate the terms by what they may understand it, and deny the possibility of any other existance that may be valid as well ?????

You google what u like.. we can all google and come up with all kinds of stuff to make our point.. just as we use different dictionaries for the same reason..

..I have avoided nothing... I simply dismiss one aspect of predetermination.. that of the existence of what we can call a God. Because something is predetermined does not make it something determined by some kind of omnipotent being.. we understand so little of the universe and its workings that we cannot say why what will be will be.. only that it will be.. you could say it is not predetermined yet is that true? Because what will be will be and there is nothing we can do about it.. predetermined or not what will be remains fate.. remains destiny.. it remains Kismet.. and God has nothing to do with it..

If we subscribe even to a theory of random chaos.. what will be will still be.. there is nothing any of us can do to stop it.. fate is fate.. no omnipotent being involved.. I repeat.. our Kismet may not be written.. but it is set.. what will be will be..

..and if what will be will be.. and it is anavoidable.. even in a theory of chaotic chance.. can even that not then be described as predetermined? I do not like the expression "preordained" because that does smack too much of intelligent design, but "predetermined" does not rely on the need for that intelligent design.

.. I wish to deny people access to nothing and certainly not control them.. nor dictate how and what they know or how they are granted access to knowledge or the form of that knowledge.... all I desire is that they examine all the options and make up their minds for themselves..

[pepperjack]

the issue with that situation is that it implies that you would know that your actions would take 100's of lives..... and that would require knowledge of the full situation.... but in most situations like that, you do not know.. so most loving parents would make a choice to save the child, at the risk of their own health and well being......

so the question is really one of what is the right choice for a person to make, the child or the people, if you choose the child of your own flesh and body, you are placing your own needs and desires over those of the many you would harm... and if you choose the people over your own child, you show a tendancy to place others before yourself and often bear the brunt of the pain and suffering so that others do not suffer......

the correct answer is both... you would act to save the child, then when the accident happens, act to save and assist the others on the train... as that shows a tendancy to look after yourself, but when others need help, you will do what you can for them too, without sacrificing yourself.....

the key to the question is the knowledge of the consequences of the choices of your actions... and as we are not god, we could not know the consequences of our actions enuf to make such a choice

As I said to begin with, it was a theoretical premise, & yes, that premise included ur foreknowledge that the act of saving ur child would result in the death of hundreds of others. At the core of this dilemma is sacrifice, considered to be the true test of love; and I think the answer is, which sacrifice would one be best able to live with. I find myself choosing between the lesser of 2 evils quite often. I think this scenario was meant as food for thought & as an analogy to God's love for humanity.

[pepperjack]

You google what u like.. we can all google and come up with all kinds of stuff to make our point.. just as we use different dictionaries for the same reason..

..I have avoided nothing... I simply dismiss one aspect of predetermination.. that of the existence of what we can call a God. Because something is predetermined does not make it something determined by some kind of omnipotent being.. we understand so little of the universe and its workings that we cannot say why what will be will be.. only that it will be.. you could say it is not predetermined yet is that true? Because what will be will be and there is nothing we can do about it.. predetermined or not what will be remains fate.. remains destiny.. it remains Kismet.. and God has nothing to do with it..

If we subscribe even to a theory of random chaos.. what will be will still be.. there is nothing any of us can do to stop it.. fate is fate.. no omnipotent being involved.. I repeat.. our Kismet may not be written.. but it is set.. what will be will be..

..and if what will be will be.. and it is anavoidable.. even in a theory of chaotic chance.. can even that not then be described as predetermined? I do not like the expression "preordained" because that does smack too much of intelligent design, but "predetermined" does not rely on the need for that intelligent design.

.. I wish to deny people access to nothing and certainly not control them.. nor dictate how and what they know or how they are granted access to knowledge or the form of that knowledge.... all I desire is that they examine all the options and make up their minds for themselves..
"our Kismet may not be written..but it is set" Aren't u contradicting urself once again? So, in ur mind, fate is an autocratic force in our lives & we are helpless pawns? The question of exactly what fate is, remains unanswered. I think fate has much to do with the content embedded in our subconscious minds which influences our conscious decisions, hence destiny.

[darkeyes]

"our Kismet may not be written..but it is set" Aren't u contradicting urself once again? So, in ur mind, fate is an autocratic force in our lives & we are helpless pawns? The question of exactly what fate is, remains unanswered. I think fate has much to do with the content embedded in our subconscious minds which influences our conscious decisions, hence destiny.

In a sense it could be said to be a contradiction, Pepper.. but as I see it there is none.. there is no great intelligent force which has decided how things will be.. there is only the inexorable natural force of existence.. we lack the understanding to be able to work out exactly how things interact but interact they do.. throughout the universe and beyond

There is far more than just our consciousness or subconciousness to be considered when contemplating our fate... there is the effect of billions of other living creatures on our lives and our world, of natural events on and off this earth, good and bad, and even beyond the stars.. it seems such an important thing our consciousness and so does our subconscious.. I would argue that our kismet is determined more by what goes on around us than by any decisions we may make.. most of those decisions result from what goes on around us in any case.. we really are such helpless paltry little creatures with such a huge ego we really should lose.. we do not control our fate.. more our fate controls us.. decisions we make may influence that fate, but at no time in our lives are we in control of it.. after all.. we all pop our clogs in the end do we not?

Now Pepper et al.. I've enjoyed it..but have become much too embroiled in deep philosphical arguments and intend now to take a back seat.. busy week ahead and time will be at a bit of a premium.. I've learned quite a lot tho.. thanks guys.. learned about meself as much as anything and that can't be bad for starters.. even if sometimes I've been known to bash me poor lil bonce in agitation and frustration on me desk and headboard.. but hey.. whats new 'bout that?

.. but now I have an appointment with a gorge naggy person who has been off gaddin' about for 2 days.. me Kismet for tonite surely is a bit a hugglin an asnoggin.. 'n stuff..:tong:

[pepperjack]

In a sense it could be said to be a contradiction, Pepper.. but as I see it there is none.. there is no great intelligent force which has decided how things will be.. there is only the inexorable natural force of existence.. we lack the understanding to be able to work out exactly how things interact but interact they do.. throughout the universe and beyond

There is far more than just our consciousness or subconciousness to be considered when contemplating our fate... there is the effect of billions of other living creatures on our lives and our world, of natural events on and off this earth, good and bad, and even beyond the stars.. it seems such an important thing our consciousness and so does our subconscious.. I would argue that our kismet is determined more by what goes on around us than by any decisions we may make.. most of those decisions result from what goes on around us in any case.. we really are such helpless paltry little creatures with such a huge ego we really should lose.. we do not control our fate.. more our fate controls us.. decisions we make may influence that fate, but at no time in our lives are we in control of it.. after all.. we all pop our clogs in the end do we not?

Now Pepper et al.. I've enjoyed it..but have become much too embroiled in deep philosphical arguments and intend now to take a back seat.. busy week ahead and time will be at a bit of a premium.. I've learned quite a lot tho.. thanks guys.. learned about meself as much as anything and that can't be bad for starters.. even if sometimes I've been known to bash me poor lil bonce in agitation and frustration on me desk and headboard.. but hey.. whats new 'bout that?

.. but now I have an appointment with a gorge naggy person who has been off gaddin' about for 2 days.. me Kismet for tonite surely is a bit a hugglin an asnoggin.. 'n stuff..:tong:

Understand! We need a break from this thread.

[elian]

Thanks for your thoughts Fran, I hope you have a successful week!

[Darkside2009]

In a sense it could be said to be a contradiction, Pepper.. but as I see it there is none.. there is no great intelligent force which has decided how things will be.. there is only the inexorable natural force of existence.. we lack the understanding to be able to work out exactly how things interact but interact they do.. throughout the universe and beyond

There is far more than just our consciousness or subconciousness to be considered when contemplating our fate... there is the effect of billions of other living creatures on our lives and our world, of natural events on and off this earth, good and bad, and even beyond the stars.. it seems such an important thing our consciousness and so does our subconscious.. I would argue that our kismet is determined more by what goes on around us than by any decisions we may make.. most of those decisions result from what goes on around us in any case.. we really are such helpless paltry little creatures with such a huge ego we really should lose.. we do not control our fate.. more our fate controls us.. decisions we make may influence that fate, but at no time in our lives are we in control of it.. after all.. we all pop our clogs in the end do we not?

Now Pepper et al.. I've enjoyed it..but have become much too embroiled in deep philosphical arguments and intend now to take a back seat.. busy week ahead and time will be at a bit of a premium.. I've learned quite a lot tho.. thanks guys.. learned about meself as much as anything and that can't be bad for starters.. even if sometimes I've been known to bash me poor lil bonce in agitation and frustration on me desk and headboard.. but hey.. whats new 'bout that?

.. but now I have an appointment with a gorge naggy person who has been off gaddin' about for 2 days.. me Kismet for tonite surely is a bit a hugglin an asnoggin.. 'n stuff..:tong:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You need to make an appointment? :eek: Whatever happened to Que Sera, Sera? Whatever will be, will be, it's Naggy-Knicks tonight for me, Que Sera, Sera. :bigrin: Goodnight! Doris, have fun. lol

[Darkside2009]

It rained so much that the river next to the city flooded, crested w/river level at 25 feet..meanwhile Texas was crying for rain. Doesn't sound at all like God can (or will) control the weather.

You are right, it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of being a five year old in the eyes of God..can't help it - when it gets this late, and I get this tired all I ever want to do is just curl up in the arms of a warm, loving friend..been a long day - went to see some fall foliage..lots of neat colors.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flooding often occurs because man has covered up lots of the earth with concrete and asphalt. So instead of the rain soaking into the soil and the soil acting like a giant sponge that the trees, grasses and other vegetation draws on to survive. The water runs off roads, driveways, buildings, is diverted into gutters, culverts, pipes, into streams and rivers, which in heavy rain overflow and cause flooding. This is largely a man-made problem.

Similarly, I remember reading that the Hoover Dam in generating ever increasing needs for electricity in Las Vegas was affecting the flow of the river and the water needs of people and communities further downstream.

The Native-American Indians on the plains complained that the buffalo hunters killed the animals for their hides only, and left the carcass to rot where it fell. To people who lived more in harmony with Nature and only killed what they needed for food and clothing, this was bizarre and obscene behaviour.

Crop rotation has been known and practised for a long time, leaving the fields fallow for a time to recover their nutrients. This did not stop the practice of mono-culture that eventually led to the dust bowls in Oklahoma.

In my own country, the over-reliance on one crop the potato, was a disaster waiting to happen. When the potato blight arrived from your country, it devastated crops and led to the famine.

In some countries, irresponsible logging has led to extensive mud-slides and the near extinction of many species.

There is not much point in blaming God, for not averting disasters when often these disasters are caused by mankind. God is not the cleaner who comes in twice a week to clean up our mess.

It is still a beautiful World we live in, enjoy it for its infinite variety. :)

[sammie19]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Flooding often occurs because man has covered up lots of the earth with concrete and asphalt. So instead of the rain soaking into the soil and the soil acting like a giant sponge that the trees, grasses and other vegetation draws on to survive. The water runs off roads, driveways, buildings, is diverted into gutters, culverts, pipes, into streams and rivers, which in heavy rain overflow and cause flooding. This is largely a man-made problem.

Similarly, I remember reading that the Hoover Dam in generating ever increasing needs for electricity in Las Vegas was affecting the flow of the river and the water needs of people and communities further downstream.

The Native-American Indians on the plains complained that the buffalo hunters killed the animals for their hides only, and left the carcass to rot where it fell. To people who lived more in harmony with Nature and only killed what they needed for food and clothing, this was bizarre and obscene behaviour.

Crop rotation has been known and practised for a long time, leaving the fields fallow for a time to recover their nutrients. This did not stop the practice of mono-culture that eventually led to the dust bowls in Oklahoma.

In my own country, the over-reliance on one crop the potato, was a disaster waiting to happen. When the potato blight arrived from your country, it devastated crops and led to the famine.

In some countries, irresponsible logging has led to extensive mud-slides and the near extinction of many species.

There is not much point in blaming God, for not averting disasters when often these disasters are caused by mankind. God is not the cleaner who comes in twice a week to clean up our mess.

It is still a beautiful World we live in, enjoy it for its infinite variety. :)

When I was little I watched a documentary about a river in America which no longer reaches the sea because of the water which is damned repeatedly to supply water for agriculture, people and also for power. I dont remember much about it except the sad picture of it disappearing into the desert sand many miles from the sea.

The vague recollection of that old documentary first awakened my interest in the world about us. I am not saying we should not use our rescources but do think we should remember we are holding onto our world in trust for future generations and over utilisation and exploitation of resources have harmful affects on ourselves, other living things and our environment.

Darkside in his very good post mentions the infinite variety contained in a beautiful world. It is a beautiful world, but it has never had an infinite variety of anything and because of our over exploitation of our rivers, lakes, and seas alone we have less variety every day. Darkside is right. It is no use blaming God for our shortcomings, short-sightedness and abuses. The responsibility is on our shoulders and ours alone.

[Hephaestion]

A minimum of 5 characters required

-

[darkeyes]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You need to make an appointment? :eek: Whatever happened to Que Sera, Sera? Whatever will be, will be, it's Naggy-Knicks tonight for me, Que Sera, Sera. :bigrin: Goodnight! Doris, have fun. lol

Busy life she leads these days.. gaddin' 'bout here ther an everywer.. thats life me sposes.. hav Doris singin Que Sera sumwer about.. also have Pet Clark as well.. must admit Pet Clark a much sexier lady in 'er time.. is sad wen beautiful women move past their prime.. wot will b will b.. betta not happen 2 me too kwik me can tellya Darkside, but the white in the hair is not a promisin sign...:(

..an forya info Naggy n me talked an talked for hours.. well mayb not hours.. but long time ne way.. now wetha fun wos had will leave that 2 ya imagination.. but since this is a thread bout religion will say just this.. by time we fell asleep.. the lil Scottish athiest tart had been whisked off 2 paradise..:bigrin: an the not quite so lil agnostic Scottish Goddess huggled 'er 2 sleep in 'er arms... an at risk of soundin sacriligious.. the lil athiest Scottish tart slept the sleep of the dead an wos indeed in heaven..:bigrin:

...an wos 40 minutes late for bloody work!!!:eek:

[goldenfinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wifUXxsOPMA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNspEpMK7FE&feature=related

You just have to :bigrin::bigrin::bigrin:

[love1234]

ok so you post a heap of bible verses.... and that proves what ??? that you can copy and paste...... I can copy and paste harry potter and that doesn't prove that people can fly on broomsticks.....

your pasting of bible verses adds nothing to the conversation about the nature of satanism and satanic beliefs, other than to reinforce the idea that you have nothing to add to the conversation, so you spout bible verses and prove that you can post nothing worth reading

The Bible tells you about everything that is going on in the world today and in the past. You can't stand the truth. You could have read the Bible cover to cover many times and never had a clue to what you are reading.

One must want the Truth to see it.

Most people hate Truth and love harry potter.

[goldenfinger]

The Bible tells you about everything that is going on in the world today and in the past. You can't stand the truth. You could have read the Bible cover to cover many times and never had a clue to what you are reading.

One must want the Truth to see it.

Most people hate Truth and love harry potter.

There is no mention in the bible of the rest of the world,,Eskimo, Polynesians, Vikings, Asians, south American native. Because, whoever wrote the bible, didn't know about their existence.

Having just spend some time on youtube, see my last two links, says all I need to know about the Truth. The problem with the truth is, too many religions claims only they have it.

[DuckiesDarling]

You know for some the Bible is the only tool they need to live a life, for others it's one of the greatest works of fiction with multiple authors attributed. So once again I submit what I have learned and it works for me "Religion is MANMADE, faith is what you make of it"

[love1234]

Ho hum love me luffly.. you don't half go on.. an d on..and on...and on...

...not a very interesting person are u? 7.798 posts and I go on and on:-)
Do you spend all your free time on here.

[Long Duck Dong]

The Bible tells you about everything that is going on in the world today and in the past. You can't stand the truth. You could have read the Bible cover to cover many times and never had a clue to what you are reading.

One must want the Truth to see it.

Most people hate Truth and love harry potter.

you can read the bible from cover to cover for your whole life... and it will still apply to a conversation between two people about something that had nothing to do with the bible

that is the truth......

as for the bible telling the truth, you can read anything you want into what the bible says.... its why some christians used to think that henry kissinger is the anti christ, cos his name adds up to 666 on the numerical alphabet.....

that other guy, camping has foretold the end of the world 4 times cos its in the bible....

the list goes on.........

now you can argue that they misread the bible, but since they are reading the same bible as you, you would be stating that you understand and interpret the the bible correctly..... but how do you know that your own understanding of the bible is correct......

you pasted quotes from the bible in regards to a conversation between two people, that was not about relevations or the antichrist as proof of your beliefs about satan...... yet me and fran were talking about ideologies...
so I would suggest you rethink your stance on things and how you managed to totally make a fool of yourself by sticking your nose into a conversation and added something that added nothing to the conversation, before you start yapping on about the truth etc.......

if you read the bible, it will tell you, that god turns his back on those who preach in his name as they do not witness in his name, but speak hollow words and profess to be doing the work of god

[love1234]

There is no mention in the bible of the rest of the world,,Eskimo, Polynesians, Vikings, Asians, south American native. Because, whoever wrote the bible, didn't know about their existence.

Having just spend some time on youtube, see my last two links, says all I need to know about the Truth. The problem with the truth is, too many religions claims only they have it.

You have not read the Bible have you. The Bible states we will own every where we set our feet North, South, East and West.

That is just what we did and have lost very little of it.

You really need to study just the maps of the wanderings of Abraham.

[love1234]

you can read the bible from cover to cover for your whole life... and it will still apply to a conversation between two people about something that had nothing to do with the bible

that is the truth......

as for the bible telling the truth, you can read anything you want into what the bible says.... its why some christians used to think that henry kissinger is the anti christ, cos his name adds up to 666 on the numerical alphabet.....

that other guy, camping has foretold the end of the world 4 times cos its in the bible....

the list goes on.........

now you can argue that they misread the bible, but since they are reading the same bible as you, you would be stating that you understand and interpret the the bible correctly..... but how do you know that your own understanding of the bible is correct......

you pasted quotes from the bible in regards to a conversation between two people, that was not about relevations or the antichrist as proof of your beliefs about satan...... yet me and fran were talking about ideologies...
so I would suggest you rethink your stance on things and how you managed to totally make a fool of yourself by sticking your nose into a conversation and added something that added nothing to the conversation, before you start yapping on about the truth etc.......

if you read the bible, it will tell you, that god turns his back on those who preach in his name as they do not witness in his name, but speak hollow words and profess to be doing the work of god
Babylon on and on.

[Long Duck Dong]

nice come back, love1234..... can't debate the bible with a person that has read the bible and is a ex christian ?????

[love1234]

nice come back, love1234..... can't debate the bible with a person that has read the bible and is a ex christian ????? I see no reason when you just Babylon. I'm not a Christian so why would I want to defend blind guides or Christians?

[Long Duck Dong]

I see no reason when you just Babylon. I'm not a Christian so why would I want to defend blind guides or Christians?

thank you...... thank you very much.... you are not a christian.

enuf said

[void()]

love1234,

Zoroaster (http://www.zoroaster.com/)?
Jew (www.religioustolerance.org/judaism.htm)?
Janist (http://www.jainism.org/)?
Mithrain (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mithra)?
Toaist (http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm)?
Ishtarian (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Semiramis)?
Cynic (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Antisthenes)?
Esoteric (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Esotericism)?
Stoic (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Stoicism)?
Gnostic (http://www.gnostic.org/)?

[goldenfinger]

You have not read the Bible have you. The Bible states we will own every where we set our feet North, South, East and West.

That is just what we did and have lost very little of it.

You really need to study just the maps of the wanderings of Abraham.

Why don't you point me to passages in the bible where Eskimos and Polynesians are mentions, rather then say North South East West. From where is N,S,E,W, spoken of.

Remember, god knew about these peoples existence, but totally failed to include them in the bible. Why oh why did he do that. Maybe you can explain that to me. Why only people from the middle east is spoken of in the bible. Could it be that it was those people who wrote the bible, and was totally unaware of life on the other side of the plat earth.

Please give me something better then N,S,E,W.

[pepperjack]

Why don't you point me to passages in the bible where Eskimos and Polynesians are mentions, rather then say North South East West. From where is N,S,E,W, spoken of.

Remember, god knew about these peoples existence, but totally failed to include them in the bible. Why oh why did he do that. Maybe you can explain that to me. Why only people from the middle east is spoken of in the bible. Could it be that it was those people who wrote the bible, and was totally unaware of life on the other side of the plat earth.

Please give me something better then N,S,E,W.

It was man who decided what would be included in the Bible at The Council of Nicene; what is canonical or non-canonical; The Book of Enoch, teachings of the Gnostics,excluded,because church leaders felt knowledge was too dangerous for average lay-Christian at the time!

[pepperjack]

It was man who decided what would be included in the Bible at The Council of Nicene; what is canonical or non-canonical; The Book of Enoch, teachings of the Gnostics,excluded,because church leaders felt knowledge was too dangerous for average lay-Christian at the time!

Sorry, I goofed; confused 1st Council of Nicaea with Nicene Creed; essence is the same; man decided what would be included in the Bible and what would not.

[goldenfinger]

Sorry, I goofed; confused 1st Council of Nicaea with Nicene Creed; essence is the same; man decided what would be included in the Bible and what would not.

So what you are saying is, that the bible is the words of man and not god????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVaUNXcFvTw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbG80SjrOnQ&feature=related

I needed to laugh.

[pepperjack]

So what you are saying is, that the bible is the words of man and not god????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVaUNXcFvTw&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbG80SjrOnQ&feature=related

I needed to laugh.

I'm saying what I said from the beginning, that the Bible is incomplete & tainted with human error& possibly personal agendas as well, but I guess I shouldn't expect someone with a dimwitted, shallow sense of humor to understand that.

[goldenfinger]

I'm saying what I said from the beginning, that the Bible is incomplete & tainted with human error& possibly personal agendas as well, but I guess I shouldn't expect someone with a dimwitted, shallow sense of humor to understand that.

How do you know that the bible is incomplete and tainted. What is missing and what is tainted???

[pepperjack]

How do you know that the bible is incomplete and tainted. What is missing and what is tainted???

I study; why don't u do the same? for starters, I mentioned The Book of Enoch & the Gnostics; I gave u credible information to pursue, namely, The 1st Council of Nicaea & the Nicene Creed; did I mistakenly assume u had enough common sense & computer skills to google that?

[goldenfinger]

I study; why don't u do the same? for starters, I mentioned The Book of Enoch & the Gnostics; I gave u credible information to pursue, namely, The 1st Council of Nicaea & the Nicene Creed; did I mistakenly assume u had enough common sense & computer skills to google that?

Why has the mistakes not been corrected by now, and who will correct it and when. As the books you mention are fairytales too, you have proved nothing.

My question as to why god left the rest of the world out of the bible has still not been answered, and I guess it won't be.

[pepperjack]

Why has the mistakes not been corrected by now, and who will correct it and when. As the books you mention are fairytales too, you have proved nothing.

My question as to why god left the rest of the world out of the bible has still not been answered, and I guess it won't be.

STUPIDITY!!! U atheists just love to twist & distort!

[mikey3000]

How do you know that the bible is incomplete and tainted. What is missing and what is tainted???

Here is a perfect example of what is tainted and missing from the bible. The Secret Gospel of Mark...

http://www.gnosis.org/library/secm.htm

[pepperjack]

Here is a perfect example of what is tainted and missing from the bible. The Secret Gospel of Mark...

http://www.gnosis.org/library/secm.htm

And the Gospel of Judas; thanx Mikey;It's gonna take awhile to digest this.

[goldenfinger]

And the Gospel of Judas; thanx Mikey;It's gonna take awhile to digest this.

Adding more fairytales proves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxuq1wGYaxY&feature=related

[mikey3000]

And check out the Gospel of Mary Magdalene too.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can put such beleif in a book they know absolutely nothing about. If I were to worship a God, I would want to know as much about them as humanly possible, and from as many sources as possible.

And for the record, I am a Christian, but I don't put my faith in the preachings of men, I read lots, not just the bible, but many other scriptures too. Do you think your priests and clergy read only the bible? Then why should you? And remember, put your faith in God, not just Jesus.

[darkeyes]

STUPIDITY!!! U atheists just love to twist & distort!

Tyvm Pepper. Depends on what what is meant by twist and distort really... not just athiests that do it either hun is it?:) Nor is it athiests who are prone to stupidity.. Be fair...:)

[love1234]

Why don't you point me to passages in the bible where Eskimos and Polynesians are mentions, rather then say North South East West. From where is N,S,E,W, spoken of.

Remember, god knew about these peoples existence, but totally failed to include them in the bible. Why oh why did he do that. Maybe you can explain that to me. Why only people from the middle east is spoken of in the bible. Could it be that it was those people who wrote the bible, and was totally unaware of life on the other side of the plat earth.

Please give me something better then N,S,E,W.

The Bible is mostly about The people God Loves and The people God Hates.

Isaiah
43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the East, and gather thee from the West;
43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;

Matthew
8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the East and West, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But many of the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
13:29 And they shall come from the East, and [from] the West, and from the North, and [from] the South, and shall sit down in the Kingdom of God.
That every where we set or feet is ours is in Deuteronomy. I have not found it but its hard to read it all fast And my search engine is not working.

13:16 And I will make thy seed as "the dust of the earth"*: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.

28:14 And thy seed shall be as "the dust of the earth", and thou shalt spread abroad to the West, and to the East, and to the North, and to the South: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations.

Thats not bad going fast with no search engine. It is in Deuteronomy and I have read it many times just could not find it fast.

Middle east is not just spoken of. Its about the whole world.

The people of the Bible sailed the world and Marked their territory.

[love1234]

love1234,

Zoroaster (http://www.zoroaster.com/)?
Jew (www.religioustolerance.org/judaism.htm)?
Janist (http://www.jainism.org/)?
Mithrain (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Mithra)?
Toaist (http://www.religioustolerance.org/taoism.htm)?
Ishtarian (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Semiramis)?
Cynic (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Antisthenes)?
Esoteric (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Esotericism)?
Stoic (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Stoicism)?
Gnostic (http://www.gnostic.org/)?

I Follow "The Way" I could be better at it:-)

[Long Duck Dong]

The Bible is mostly about The people God Loves and The people God Hates.

Isaiah
43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the East, and gather thee from the West;
43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;

Matthew
8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the East and West, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the Kingdom of heaven.
8:12 But many of the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the Prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.
13:29 And they shall come from the East, and [from] the West, and from the North, and [from] the South, and shall sit down in the Kingdom of God.
That every where we set or feet is ours is in Deuteronomy. I have not found it but its hard to read it all fast And my search engine is not working.

13:16 And I will make thy seed as "the dust of the earth"*: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, [then] shall thy seed also be numbered.

28:14 And thy seed shall be as "the dust of the earth", and thou shalt spread abroad to the West, and to the East, and to the North, and to the South: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations.

Thats not bad going fast with no search engine. It is in Deuteronomy and I have read it many times just could not find it fast.

Middle east is not just spoken of. Its about the whole world.

The people of the Bible sailed the world and Marked their territory.

now the interesting part is how you manage to not prove anything other than how you can read into the verses, the meaning you want.......

IE 43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;

it can be refering to the end of the continent, but you read it as the furtherest point of the world as your knowledge of the world is as a round sphere with all of the countries dotted around the place

considering that much of the known world was not known about for a number of centuries... you are trying to imply that people were happily talking about something of what they had no understanding.... and in most cases, their understanding of the world only existed in terms of the known world, the middle east.....

in essense, you have posted bible verses with directions, added your understanding of the world etc, and then said, see, there is proof.......

most scholars would say, no, there is bible verses with directions, now think as a person would way back there and their understanding of the world as they knew it..... hence the way the references to the world are so obscure and limited to directions, as it was a way of refering to areas beyond which the writer had travelled and had knowledge of but most of their understanding would not be of countries beyond the middle east... but the travellers from other parts of the middle east would have travelled to the ends of the earth, IE the edge of the continent

[love1234]

now the interesting part is how you manage to not prove anything other than how you can read into the verses, the meaning you want.......

IE 43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;

it can be refering to the end of the continent, but you read it as the furtherest point of the world as your knowledge of the world is as a round sphere with all of the countries dotted around the place

considering that much of the known world was not known about for a number of centuries... you are trying to imply that people were happily talking about something of what they had no understanding.... and in most cases, their understanding of the world only existed in terms of the known world, the middle east.....

in essense, you have posted bible verses with directions, added your understanding of the world etc, and then said, see, there is proof.......

most scholars would say, no, there is bible verses with directions, now think as a person would way back there and their understanding of the world as they knew it..... hence the way the references to the world are so obscure and limited to directions, as it was a way of refering to areas beyond which the writer had travelled and had knowledge of but most of their understanding would not be of countries beyond the middle east... but the travellers from other parts of the middle east would have travelled to the ends of the earth, IE the edge of the continent

God stated that His people would own every where they set their feet and would be a mulitude of nations. Start at first Book in Bible and keep reading. Pray for Wisdom so you understand what you are reading.

9:24 Ye have been rebellious against the "I AM" from the day that I knew you.



Isaiah
43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the East, and gather thee from the West;
43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;

Ends of the Earth. God knows the planet He made and He is not lieing to you.

10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your HEART, and be NO MORE stiffnecked (ARROGANT and OBSTINATE).

3:27 Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold [it] with thine eyes: for thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
Gods people back then sailed the sea's and knew God gave them this world and they took it. That is history.

Jesus' great-uncle was a great business man and was sailing a fleet of ships selling copper to the Romans from the British Isles.

Joseph de Marmore (Marmorica in Egypt) from Arimathaea, was (according to a manuscript at Jesus College Oxford) brother to Bianca and Ann (V. Mary's mother); uncle to Virgin Mary and great-uncle to Jesus, whose body he claimed from Pontius Pilate, as, by law, only a relative could.

[sammie19]

Isaiah
43:5 Fear not: for I [am] with thee: I will bring thy seed from the East, and gather thee from the West;
43:6 I will say to the North, Give up; and to the South, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;



Isaiah was a funny looking man so called because one isaiah than the other.:bigrin:

[elian]

Gods people back then sailed the sea's and knew God gave them this world and they took it. That is history.


Yeah, ain't THAT the truth. I am fascinated and a little disgusted by the whole concept of "Manifest Destiny" and the Victorian Era... "THIS ship is UNSINKABLE" -- yeah, bet me buddy.. ..and it wouldn't be the FIRST time our greed has driven people into poverty.. What is it that Christians say, "We are all children of God" ? I guess I find that an unfair/untrue statement with the way some of them get treated. If we are all children of God, and he loves all of us, why don't we all love each other? But then again I was an only child, some of you who grew up with siblings probably know better.

History repeats, over and over again - until we get it right or perish.

[void()]

I Follow "The Way" I could be better at it:-)

Void nods. Think we all can be better following the Way.

[pepperjack]

Why has the mistakes not been corrected by now, and who will correct it and when. As the books you mention are fairytales too, you have proved nothing.

My question as to why god left the rest of the world out of the bible has still not been answered, and I guess it won't be.

Looks to me like I proved the veracity of the maxim, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

[goldenfinger]

Looks to me like I proved the veracity of the maxim, "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

Wonder if the same apply to donkeys.

[pepperjack]

Yeah, ain't THAT the truth. I am fascinated and a little disgusted by the whole concept of "Manifest Destiny" and the Victorian Era... "THIS ship is UNSINKABLE" -- yeah, bet me buddy.. ..and it wouldn't be the FIRST time our greed has driven people into poverty.. What is it that Christians say, "We are all children of God" ? I guess I find that an unfair/untrue statement with the way some of them get treated. If we are all children of God, and he loves all of us, why don't we all love each other? But then again I was an only child, some of you who grew up with siblings probably know better.

History repeats, over and over again - until we get it right or perish.

Found this to be an interesting coincidence about "Manifest Destiny; watched a History Channel program twice this past week about origins of project Mt.Rushmore; at least 2 of the presidents sculpted were diametric in views on that concept.

[pepperjack]

Wonder if the same apply to donkeys.

why wonder when u of all people should know the answer.

[darkeyes]

This is fun.. Christianity at war wiv itself.. CofE resignations.. circles of prayer.. injunctions.. Church embarrassin itself an gettin inta cahoots wiv the bad boys.. opportunities lost.. bobbies lookin out the riot shields.. fingies x'd they try an clear it on a weekend tho ver much doubt it.. wud h8 2 miss the fun..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/29/christians-defend-occupy-london-protest
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/30/observer-editorial-st-pauls-protest

St Paul's started off fine... but am afraid methinks they have been got at..nobbled.. personal opinion of course.. but reckon money, govt, the City has nibbled away at them an they have crumpled.. this makes an interestin lil read..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/oct/28/jesus-st-paul-occupy-london-giles-fraser

..as does the interview Fraser gave to the guardian a few days ago..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/27/giles-fraser-occupy-london-st-pauls

Nowt do do wiv the thread? Well can argue that easy enuff.. cos reckon at least as far as Christianity is concerned its 2 do with whether Jesus teachings as we know them are followed or not.. an wiv the courts, the city, the city of London corporation, govt (prob) an the fuzz sharpenin up the tools of suppression... we know just whose side St Paul's is on..

[goldenfinger]

why wonder when u of all people should know the answer.

I'm the horse, and your the donkey, and donkeys are bloody stubborn:bigrin::bigrin:

[elian]

The institutions are fallible because they are made up of people who are fallible. People can have very good intentions, and actually do go things in the world, but they certainly aren't perfect and neither are these institutions.

My own denomination has grown to encompass people of many different spiritual backgrounds but when they first started the Unitarians walked away from the Counsel of Nicaea because they believed that there was only ONE God, not THREE Gods. So we had the Trinitarians and the Unitarians. The Universalists went against the Calvanists, rejecting the ideas of predestination and eternal damnation. They threw into the mix people like William Ellery Channing, who believed more in "salvation by character" and Henry David Thoreau and other transcendentalists. Before you know it, crazy things were happening..the Unitarians and Universalists saw that they had more in common than differences so they merged together..

The concentration of the faith is mostly still in Boston, and there in Boston depending on which church you go to, you will get either a very traditional Christian sermon with the ten commandments hanging on the wall (except no mention of the trinity) -or- something completely different, possibly given by a humanist, an attheist, an agnostic, a buddhist, a christian, a pagan... There are universal truths in human experience, and we draw from all religious texts and direct experience for spiritual inspiration. That DOES mean that you have to think, you may be challenged by what someone is saying if they don't believe exactly the same as you - but I would much rather practice a faith that engages me and challenges my belief, rather than one where I am spoon fed the "right" answers.

We may not ALL believe in God but we do generally believe that none of us is superior to the other, or at least we believe in the power of sharing human experience as a community.

[Darkside2009]

The Bible does not mention Eskimoes or Polynesians by name, neither does it mention motor cars, electricity or Manchester United's drubbing by Manchester City at football.

The reason is simple, it is the story of the relationship between God and his chosen people, the Jews, and by extension through the figure of Jesus to Christians and all who believe in him and follow his teachings.

So a modern day Eskimo or Polynesian has every opportunity to learn the teachings of the bible, and to follow those teachings if they choose, just as a Chinese person or a Danish person can. Whether they do or not is another matter.

I'm fairly sure that Bhudda never met any Irish people any more than the followers of Odin and Thor met any Australian Aborigines. That in itself did not negate their system of belief.

I'm fairly sure you never met any Australian Aborigines before you moved to Australia with your family to live, did that make everything you believed in up to that point a lie?

Instead of making snide remarks, why don't you go away and research the topics you are attacking. Actually read the teachings the Bible has to offer, you might find that the laws current in the Western World, are based in large part on those very same teachings given in the Ten Commandments.

The Bible is filled with guidance on Life and its moral problems. People of thousands of years ago faced many of those same moral problems as we do today. The Bible offers instructions and guidance on how to overcome those problems and how to live a happy and fulfilled life.

It is not a car manual or a dictionary, although many of its phrases have entered into the English Language, so try reading it for what it is, a book of guidance and belief.

Just as you would buy a guide book to learn the customs, beliefs and history, before you travelled to a Foreign country, in order that you might understand the country better and get more from your stay, treat the Bible in the same way. You will find it has much sensible advice to offer.

Whether you take it or not is up to you, just as a guide book languishing in your suitcase is not much good on your holiday. You are on a journey through life, how you deal with it, is your choice.

[goldenfinger]

The Bible does not mention Eskimoes or Polynesians by name, neither does it mention motor cars, electricity or Manchester United's drubbing by Manchester City at football.

The reason is simple, it is the story of the relationship between God and his chosen people, the Jews, and by extension through the figure of Jesus to Christians and all who believe in him and follow his teachings.

So a modern day Eskimo or Polynesian has every opportunity to learn the teachings of the bible, and to follow those teachings if they choose, just as a Chinese person or a Danish person can. Whether they do or not is another matter.

I'm fairly sure that Bhudda never met any Irish people any more than the followers of Odin and Thor met any Australian Aborigines. That in itself did not negate their system of belief.

I'm fairly sure you never met any Australian Aborigines before you moved to Australia with your family to live, did that make everything you believed in up to that point a lie?

Instead of making snide remarks, why don't you go away and research the topics you are attacking. Actually read the teachings the Bible has to offer, you might find that the laws current in the Western World, are based in large part on those very same teachings given in the Ten Commandments.

The Bible is filled with guidance on Life and its moral problems. People of thousands of years ago faced many of those same moral problems as we do today. The Bible offers instructions and guidance on how to overcome those problems and how to live a happy and fulfilled life.

It is not a car manual or a dictionary, although many of its phrases have entered into the English Language, so try reading it for what it is, a book of guidance and belief.

Just as you would buy a guide book to learn the customs, beliefs and history, before you travelled to a Foreign country, in order that you might understand the country better and get more from your stay, treat the Bible in the same way. You will find it has much sensible advice to offer.

Whether you take it or not is up to you, just as a guide book languishing in your suitcase is not much good on your holiday. You are on a journey through life, how you deal with it, is your choice.

So the jews are gods chosen people, and the rest of the world can go to hell,god has no interest in them.
Why don't you read the koran, they too have the "Truth" and it is not the same truth as your bible. when you can bring all religions together and come up with one "TRUTH", I'll take a look at it, until then, it's all fairytales to me.

[mikey3000]

When I want to know about the afterlife, I consult people who claim to have been there. Why not? It's about as accurate anything else out there.

http://www.near-death.com/

Lots of info here, so be sure to read it before you start throwing stones. :bigrin:

[Darkside2009]

So the jews are gods chosen people, and the rest of the world can go to hell,god has no interest in them.
Why don't you read the koran, they too have the "Truth" and it is not the same truth as your bible. when you can bring all religions together and come up with one "TRUTH", I'll take a look at it, until then, it's all fairytales to me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try reading what I wrote, especially the second paragraph, instead of letting your febrile imagination run riot.

It may well be a book of fairytales to you, but I don't see you making snide remarks about Hans Christian Andersen here, on this site, on any of these threads.

All I see is you continually making snide remarks against Christianity and Christians. It is your choice whether you believe the Bible or not but this deep-rooted hostility you have towards it speaks volumes. If you didn't care about what the Bible said about anything, you wouldn't continually bring it up in your threads. As it is, it seems to be an itch that you can't stop scratching at.

I don't continually refer to things I profess to have no interest or belief in, so what might your excuse be? It's really rather simple, you don't believe it is true, fine and dandy, go find something you can believe in instead of attacking the beliefs of people who think differently to you. Or would that require too much effort on your part? Much easier to cut and paste links to web sites than have an original thought in your head.

[darkeyes]

When I want to know about the afterlife, I consult people who clain to have been there. Why not? It's about as accurate anything else out there.

http://www.near-death.com/

Lots of info here, so be sure to read it before you start throwing stones. :bigrin:

Claim is the operative word.. the mind plays tricks on us when we are hale and hearty and I have no doubt it does when we are seriously close to death.. no one is sure quite what near death experiences are or are caused by but there are scientific explanations as to what does cause them.. there is lots of other info out there too which challenges the claims of near death experience as being a quick and temporary visit to the afterlife..

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gtqw4ROsrBtzCjDs6JlW02frnBCg?docId=N03539313 19961538281A

I don't know what they are.. but am pretty sure they are not glimpses of paradise.. those who have had what we know as near death experiences may have "died" in the sense that their heart had stopped beating, and the brain had begun to be starved of oxygen.. but like anyone else whose brain has been starved of oxygen odd things happen and hallucinations can occur.. but they are not brain dead.. once they are brain dead.. they don't come back...

People hallucinate and see things quite often whether the brain is starved of oxygen or not. I did when I had glandular fever as a child.. I believe I did again as I came to after having had a malignant tumour in my breast removed.. many things cause hallucinations and these "visions" can seem very real.. we do not fully understand the functions of the brain and what affects those functions... consult away Mikey.. they may be right.. but there again.. I am at least as sure that whatever they experienced was created by the brain when they were seriously close to death but were not in fact dead...

[Long Duck Dong]

Claim is the operative word.. the mind plays tricks on us when we are hale and hearty and I have no doubt it does when we are seriously close to death.. no one is sure quite what near death experiences are or are caused by but there are scientific explanations as to what does cause them.. there is lots of other info out there too which challenges the claims of near death experience as being a quick and temporary visit to the afterlife..

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100408-near-death-experiences-blood-carbon-dioxide/

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gtqw4ROsrBtzCjDs6JlW02frnBCg?docId=N03539313 19961538281A

I don't know what they are.. but am pretty sure they are not glimpses of paradise.. those who have had what we know as near death experiences may have "died" in the sense that their heart had stopped beating, and the brain had begun to be starved of oxygen.. but like anyone else whose brain has been starved of oxygen odd things happen and hallucinations can occur.. but they are not brain dead.. once they are brain dead.. they don't come back...

People hallucinate and see things quite often whether the brain is starved of oxygen or not. I did when I had glandular fever as a child.. I believe I did again as I came to after having had a malignant tumour in my breast removed.. many things cause hallucinations and these "visions" can seem very real.. we do not fully understand the functions of the brain and what affects those functions... consult away Mikey.. they may be right.. but there again.. I am at least as sure that whatever they experienced was created by the brain when they were seriously close to death but were not in fact dead...

where are the studies please......????

when I look at things, i tend to like to see a broad study that covers the areas where medical science is not able to give a answer

what you have provided, covers heart attacks and short term issues....

what about the long term *deaths* such as the australian that was stung more than 10 times by the box jellyfish, and was medically certified as dead...

the haiti female that was in a morgue and being embalmed when she *awake *

the american youth that drowned and was clinically dead for 3 hours, no heart beat, no brainwaves..... and was revived....

they all have also have *visions * of the *afterlife *... and are outside of the parameters you mention..

this is why most studies that seek to disprove OOBEs ( out of body experiences ) and NDE ( near death experiences ) focus on the temp death ( clinical death of less than 5 minutes ) and the Co2 levels..... but avoid long term death ( a period longer than 30 minutes ) cases, as all of their theories do not work.....

such issues do arise like the 7 year old boy that was able to describe his great grandmother in detail after a NDE, tho he had never met her.... and it was 12 years later, that a pic was found and she was exactly as he had described.... right down to the pencil sketch drawing of her face....

the issue with things like that, is they defy explanation by normal means.... as its a lil hard to imagine a person so vividly, when you have no idea what they look like.....
sceptics will use arguments like he saw a pic of her or it was from descriptions by family members or things he read etc.... the same arguments they use to dismiss past lives etc etc...... but we already know that hereditary knowledge can run in the genes tho thats another topic......

hang on to the idea of increased co2 levels, fran... but ask yourself one thing.... why is it that people that have tried to gas themselves with exhaust fumes, do not report a increased level of NDE.... when surely they would, cos of the increased co2 levels in their blood and brain, they have short term death experiences their heart has stopped in most cases.....and they have been revived

[darkeyes]

I dont know the answers to what people refer to as near death experience. I do believe there are explanations or an explanation which exist which may be the truth of the matter.. studies can tell us somethings but often not all.. there is not definitive study on near deathe xperience that I know of, only partial ones which at least castdoubt on the theory of short visits to an Elysian paradise. I do not with my athiesm, accept them to be experience of what is to come once we are dead. I prefer to look for some other explanation to do with what happens to the brain as we die. Not nearly die.. but die.

Yes there are many instances of things we are unable to explain, even recovery of apparent brain dead victims.. but I do not accept that they could possibly have been completely brain dead. Somewhere, deep in the brain of such a person I believe that there must have been some small spark of life too deeply embedded in the brain to be traced by human created sensory equipment. The instruments that human beings create are imperfect and we all know it.. and our technology is for all its sophistication still imperfect and does miss things. We do not understand fully the human body. Even less do we understand the human brain.

Explanations for things we have not seen and are sometimes able to describe quite accurately, or believed we have not seen are commonplace.. and at some stage in our lives human beings do bring to memory things long forgotten. I have no idea what that young boy did and why but there are possible explanations which may explain his recollection and ability to describe his grandmother.

Once my sister had an imaginery pet dog called Rusty. For years it was her little friend and she told no one of that little pet. He was her secret friend. She saw him as a white and russet (she called it red) Spaniel and he had no bobbed tail. When she was 20 she let slip about Rusty who had mysteriously disappeared from her mind when she was about 6. My mum had to tell her Rusty was no imaginery friend but our grandad's gun dog who was her special friend but who had been killed in an accident when she was about 3. She had shut out the reality of Rusty but he was was imprinted upon her memory and became her imaginery pet. I am not saying anything like that happened to that boy. I am saying that there are explanations which are other than mystical or supernatural..

What I am telling you is that I don't know the answers to what near death experiences are. Theories exist and I prefer to consider the natural rather than the supernatural.. I'm afraid it comes with my dismissal of the whole God thing.

[elian]

I used to interact with three guides when I was a wee little tyke all the time - but to me they were just three "friends" that I knew when I went to bed. Numerous members of the family also attest to me coming down the stairs at about 4-5 years old and informing everyone that my aunt said, "Everything is going to be okay" - perfectly sensible right - only problem was my aunt had just passed away..I had no reason to lie at 3-5 years old..I honestly don't remember anything about it.

I remember one time when I was little - maybe 6 years old - for a few days I got to play a game. At night I would dream about something - like seeing my grandfather, being held by him as he talked to me outside my grandmothers garage in the backyard - seeing the back portion of his pickup truck with the back hatch of the cap up in the air..

And then a day later, he would appear in real life, in the driveway, the weather was the same as in the dream, he was wearing the same clothes, hugged me the same way, said exactly the same things he said in the dream, with the exact same tone of voice - with the truck parked there in the same position as it was in the dream, , same back hatch elevated..and the same people were around us saying the same things they ALSO said in the dream.

I seldom have episodes of "deja vu" anymore, in order to interact with beings on that level freely you really have to have a childlike attitude. My mind is usually clouded with worry and responsibility, junk food - all of this stuff that weighs adults down. All of that stuff, the sum of everything we do - has an impact on our health in a lot more ways than some people realize. I have seen people literally worry themselves to death - what starts as a mental problem can turn physical. I guess to some extent healing is also helped by a positive outlook but that's no substitute for a good qualified medical team when they obviously know what the issue is.

Usually when I do have "deja vu" I barely remember that I've already "been there, said that, done that" .. but it drives me crazy because these episodes are like touch points in my life or something.. what..out of any other time and any other thing I do - makes those particular events significant in my mind? I really don't know. It's a certain thing someone says, or a certain way they say it, at a certain point in a conversation we've supposedly never had before according to "reality" - that makes it just too unique for it to be a coincidence.

I especially hate it when I remember the weather man saying something. But it's not like it's doom and gloom predictions or anything, I mean I've survived the weather to date here and been pretty fortunate compared to some.

Should I deny my experience? I know it happened, but who would ever believe me? I am convinced there are things that exist we just can't measure - science isn't there yet. Still that's no substitute for trying to live life with passion, reason and responsibility.

[pepperjack]

I used to interact with three guides when I was a wee little tyke all the time - but to me they were just three "friends" that I knew when I went to bed. Numerous members of the family also attest to me coming down the stairs at about 4-5 years old and informing everyone that my aunt said, "Everything is going to be okay" - perfectly sensible right - only problem was my aunt had just passed away..I had no reason to lie at 3-5 years old..I honestly don't remember anything about it.

I remember one time when I was little - maybe 6 years old - for a few days I got to play a game. At night I would dream about something - like seeing my grandfather, being held by him as he talked to me outside my grandmothers garage in the backyard - seeing the back portion of his pickup truck with the back hatch of the cap up in the air..

And then a day later, he would appear in real life, in the driveway, the weather was the same as in the dream, he was wearing the same clothes, hugged me the same way, said exactly the same things he said in the dream, with the exact same tone of voice - with the truck parked there in the same position as it was in the dream, , same back hatch elevated..and the same people were around us saying the same things they ALSO said in the dream.

I seldom have episodes of "deja vu" anymore, in order to interact with beings on that level freely you really have to have a childlike attitude. My mind is usually clouded with worry and responsibility, junk food - all of this stuff that weighs adults down. All of that stuff, the sum of everything we do - has an impact on our health in a lot more ways than some people realize. I have seen people literally worry themselves to death - what starts as a mental problem can turn physical. I guess to some extent healing is also helped by a positive outlook but that's no substitute for a good qualified medical team when they obviously know what the issue is.

Usually when I do have "deja vu" I barely remember that I've already "been there, said that, done that" .. but it drives me crazy because these episodes are like touch points in my life or something.. what..out of any other time and any other thing I do - makes those particular events significant in my mind? I really don't know. It's a certain thing someone says, or a certain way they say it, at a certain point in a conversation we've supposedly never had before according to "reality" - that makes it just too unique for it to be a coincidence.

I especially hate it when I remember the weather man saying something. But it's not like it's doom and gloom predictions or anything, I mean I've survived the weather to date here and been pretty fortunate compared to some.

Should I deny my experience? I know it happened, but who would ever believe me? I am convinced there are things that exist we just can't measure - science isn't there yet. Still that's no substitute for trying to live life with passion, reason and responsibility.

I'm a very passionate, reasonable & responsible person & do not see my psychic, spiritual, supernatural experiences as any kind of substitute for those qualities but rather as an enhancement of my being;the most passionate, creative people in life, as well as successful businessmen and policemen(detectives), are those that have learned to accept & embrace their highly developed sense of intuition.

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm a very passionate, reasonable & responsible person & do not see my psychic, spiritual, supernatural experiences as any kind of substitute for those qualities but rather as an enhancement of my being;the most passionate, creative people in life, as well as successful businessmen and policemen(detectives), are those that have learned to accept & embrace their highly developed sense of intuition.

I like you.... I really do.... you understand

[goldenfinger]

Put another log on the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCS7P-vdRM&feature=related

[Long Duck Dong]

So the jews are gods chosen people, and the rest of the world can go to hell,god has no interest in them.
Why don't you read the koran, they too have the "Truth" and it is not the same truth as your bible. when you can bring all religions together and come up with one "TRUTH", I'll take a look at it, until then, it's all fairytales to me.

the * truth * is subjective to those whom believe the * truth * hence your *truth* is different to mine or frans or elians etc etc

if you are secure in your *truth * you would not feel the need to argue it or try and prove your * truth * to others.... as the opinions and thoughts of others, would not matter to you, they would be * unbelievers *

even if all the worlds religions came up with one truth, you would still argue it, as you have no interest in believing any of it.... you just want to find issue with the fact that others believe in their truth.....

[Hephaestion]

1) goldenfinger: "....Put another log on the fire....."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCS7P-vdRM&feature=related

Interesting Goldfinger. Possibly answers the very same query that formed in my mind early on in life.

2) There are strange happenings which some organisms are sensitive to and others not; well documented in nature as 'the animals are spooked' by some impending event.

3) moaned at my mum some time ago that I had premonitions which became reality (not previous exposures in dim memory - proper premonitions). She giggled and said 'you're not mad, your grandfather had the same problem'. A variant of 2 above?

Separated by 10 miles, I was aware that my father had died at the precise time it happened. No telephone in those days so a friendly bobby was sent around. I knew someone had died, just did not believe that it was him.

When my mother died there was a strong element of Fran's kismet. She was going to die despite all the expected avenues to counteract (too strong a word / phraseology. All the avenues indicated a positive future). 'Come in number nine - your time is up'.

20yrs ago, on their retirement, when the person I had worked with for 20yrs prior and I reviewed our past experiences, we both acknowledged that it was as if there was some guiding hand that kept us from disaster. Reminder that mine is / was a science background.

There is one premonition outstanding which when it first occurred was thoroughly ludicrous in its concept. Today, that premonition has a reasonably high chance of occurring. No - it shall remain a secret and hopefully will retract to the level of 'absurd'. Then, nervously I might laugh and try not to tempt fate in the process.

There's more, much, much more and I giggle as I write because 'the essence of science is repeatablity' although I doubt it was meant to mean this.

[mikey3000]

Should I deny my experience? I know it happened, but who would ever believe me? I am convinced there are things that exist we just can't measure - science isn't there yet. Still that's no substitute for trying to live life with passion, reason and responsibility.
You know what Elian, I really enjoy you posts. A true Gentleman. And thanks for sharing your story. Don't ever deny it. I've had some stuff happen to me too, so I can totally relate; many people have. Yet, I still love those who opine to dismiss first hand experiences that don't jive with theirs. To push some personal intellectual superiority agenda is de rigueur with some folks. God love 'em.

;)

[pepperjack]

I like you.... I really do.... you understand

Thanx! Likewise, I've read and related to many of ur comments.

[love1234]

"The reason is simple, it is the story of the relationship between God and his chosen people, the Jews, and by extension through the figure of Jesus to Christians and all who believe in him and follow his teachings."

.
God has a chosen nation. They are Israel.


Most of the people that call themself Jews today are not of this nation. There is The House of Israel and The House of Judah. They split a long time ago.

The name Israel was given to two brothers and they started many nations that are still on this earth today. They were not Jews or of the House of Judah or the House of Edom. Some people of the House of Judah did travel and live with them in these lands.

First book of the Bible.

Genesis

48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid [it] upon Ephraim's head, who [was] the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh [was] the firstborn.
48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before Whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God Which fed me all my life long unto this day,
48:16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name [Israel] be named on them (let Ephraim and Manasseh be called Israel), and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
48:17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
48:18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this [is] the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
48:19 And his father refused, and said, I know [it], my son, I know [it]: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude (Commonwealth) of nations.

The Jews, House of Judah and House of Edom had this little kingdon in the Holy Land called the kingdom of Judea. They now do lie and use the name Israel.

Gods chosen kingdom (nation) Israel left the Holy Land and they are not Jews The House of Judah or House of Edom.

Anyone can join the kingdom of true Israel (champions of God) today by following "The Way" Jesus Christ teachings.

[darkeyes]

You know what Elian, I really enjoy you posts. A true Gentleman. And thanks for sharing your story. Don't ever deny it. I've had some stuff happen to me too, so I can totally relate; many people have. Yet, I still love those who opine to dismiss first hand experiences that don't jive with theirs. To push some personal intellectual superiority agenda is de rigueur with some folks. God love 'em.

;)

No intellectual superiority from me babes.. nor most of us on this side a the fence.. just expressin' a view an tryin make sense of it.. nor do I try 2 dismiss peeps experiences.. might an do take issue as what those experiences are and what they might mean.. so don't dismiss other peeps opinions as the imposition of personal intellectual guff cos that is a low trick favoured by many (often many intellectuals as it happens as well as the dim an' all shades in between) to discredit an opposing view... we argue as best we can in the best way we know how.. u dont like how we argue.. stop bloody givin' us reason 2 argue...

[mikey3000]

No intellectual superiority from me babes.. nor most of us on this side a the fence.. just expressin' a view an tryin make sense of it.. nor do I try 2 dismiss peeps experiences.. might an do take issue as what those experiences are and what they might mean.. so don't dismiss other peeps opinions as the imposition of personal intellectual guff cos that is a low trick favoured by many (often many intellectuals as it happens as well as the dim an' all shades in between) to discredit an opposing view... we argue as best we can in the best way we know how.. u dont like how we argue.. stop bloody givin' us reason 2 argue...

Sorry, Hon, I couldn't hear you over the din of your tag line. "Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you."

I've learned that you'd argue the colour of the sky just to hear yourself talk. But that's ok, we tolerate it. :bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Sorry, Hon, I couldn't hear you over the din of your tag line. "Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you."

I've learned that you'd argue the colour of the sky just to hear yourself talk. But that's ok, we tolerate it. :bigrin:

Just watched an interesting segment on The O'Reilley Factor concerning the demeaning behavior of atheists towards believers; current guest was Deepak Chopra; Richard Dawkins was being discussed & clips of his prior appearance on the program; Very insightful! Chalk one up for the believers.

[goldenfinger]

If this is what religion is doing to people, you can have it. So sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwAMa94_q0&feature=related

[pepperjack]

If this is what religion is doing to people, you can have it. So sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwAMa94_q0&feature=related

What is THIS that religion is doing to people? And yes, I will tenaciously(stubborn donkey as u implied), hang on to what I believe & know! Is that why u look so pallid?

[DuckiesDarling]

Been reading this thread and am just flabbergasted by the amount of vitriol spouted by some members who profess to not be religous at all and yet argue with everyone else about their religion and spirituality. For goodness sake, can't you all just stop arguing about what you DO NOT BELIEVE. No one is forcing anyone to have any faith but to sit here and fill page after page with condescending remarks about a person's beliefs just defies belief itself. Each person has their own personal views on their faith or lack thereof, it is the one thing that should not be targeted by others. No one is here saying they have a faith that requires sacrificing virginal goats or rendering soap for rituals from baby fat. People are trying to have an honest dialog that keeps getting sidetracked by nitpicking. It's totally ruined the entire flavor of the thread and I will keep the faith I have, it suits me and it suits my views on the world we live in. If you don't believe in what I believe, that's fine, but it gives you no right to belittle it or any other religion, faith or spirituality.

[goldenfinger]

What is THIS that religion is doing to people? And yes, I will tenaciously(stubborn donkey as u implied), hang on to what I believe & know! Is that why u look so pallid?

How do you know what I look like??,I have no profile on this site.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t?feature=grec_index#p/a/258CAE2F4546AA95/1/ZFrkjEgUDZA

[pepperjack]

If this is what religion is doing to people, you can have it. So sick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJwAMa94_q0&feature=related

Richard Dawkins got debunked for the fake he is & anyone who sees him as a mentor is just as mentally twisted; as Dennis Miller says, "hey, someone created Darwin."

[love1234]

It was man who decided what would be included in the Bible at The Council of Nicene; what is canonical or non-canonical; The Book of Enoch, teachings of the Gnostics,excluded,because church leaders felt knowledge was too dangerous for average lay-Christian at the time! Power, wealth and control. Church and state could not have people knowing the Truth or they would have lost their wealth, power and the control of the people they ruled.

[darkeyes]

Sorry, Hon, I couldn't hear you over the din of your tag line. "Do not think so little of me as to grant me your tolerance. Allow me your acceptance and understanding of who and what I am with the love, respect and dignity with which I do you."

I've learned that you'd argue the colour of the sky just to hear yourself talk. But that's ok, we tolerate it. :bigrin:

My "tag line" as you so nicely call it, was coined as an appeal primarily to the straight world in respect of my sexuality and you would be hard pressed to make me out as hypocrite for that...

Generally I do try to live by that "tag line too, but I am a very flawed individual and have no doubt on occasion have fallen flat on my face.. but in general, I think I've done ok.. on occasions I do fall flat on my face nothing you can say can ever match the things I have said to myself...

In respect of my argumentative nature, I hold my hands up I am just that.. but I have always endeavoured to argue logically, honestly and as politely as I can, without becoming personal , but I argue and debate because I care and think I have something to say. I do not try to suppress debate, or to impose upon people my opinions, merely offer them up for consideration.. that they are often contentious is something I am afraid we shall just have to live with. I do not argue just to hear my own voice as you put it, but because I think deeply about many issues.. you may not like how and what I think, and how and what I say nor do you have to listen.. but it is offered in an attempt to make people think and see that there are alternatives in the world to the mainstream.

Anything I say is not intended as the law according to Fran, but as an effort to convince. It is what I believe. I can't force you to believe it and wouldn't even if I could... you can laugh, thats fine with me..you can belittle, cos that is too.. argue away.. I'm all for that.. I really don't mind.. if you care to read back a few threads ( which wont take you 5 minutes I can tell you that!!!!) you will read that I have spent most of my adult life, and not a little of my adolescence trying to ensure that you and people like you can do just that.. I may hate things others say.. but the last thing I want to do is stop them saying them.. human progress is dependent on debate and stretching the human mind.. I think your's can do with a little stretching but I cant make you nor would I want to force it upon you..:)

[darkeyes]

Richard Dawkins got debunked for the fake he is & anyone who sees him as a mentor is just as mentally twisted; as Dennis Miller says, "hey, someone created Darwin."

Very objective Pepper..

[elian]

Power, wealth and control. Church and state could not have people knowing the Truth or they would have lost their wealth, power and the control of the people they ruled.

Don't forget that at one time common people HAD no power, but the church did and *sometimes* the church would intercede on their behalf.

I've already told you my opinion of institutions isn't very high but just saying..

I know, I know - the evil stuff is so much more fun to remember while the good just quietly goes about its business.

[sammie19]

Tbh you have been sounding very boring for days now all of u, and I think it is a good idea to give it a rest. I like this site because we can discuss other things than sex, but discussing God for an eternity is pushing things too far.

[goldenfinger]

Reading the newspaper today, I read "Thought of the day (http://www.organist.co.uk/oldread7.htm)

I could hardly believe they could print things like that in today's day.

[love1234]

Don't forget that at one time common people HAD no power, but the church did and *sometimes* the church would intercede on their behalf.

I've already told you my opinion of institutions isn't very high but just saying..

I know, I know - the evil stuff is so much more fun to remember while the good just quietly goes about its business.
The people had no power as they were mind controled just as they are today.

The internet can give the common man wisdom knowledge never dreamed of before.

There were some good people in the church but the church was more evil that the governments as they could have told the Truth.

Rev. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE (bishops) and SCARLET (cardinals) colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY (2 Thess. 2:7), BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (her daughters) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of her saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
17:7 And the angel said unto me, Why didst thou marvel? (Stop it!) I will tell thee the MYSTERY of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


This right here is one of the reasons most everyone on earth was not allowed to read the Bible for 500 or so years. The Bible exposes them (churches) as evil whores.

[love1234]

Reading the newspaper today, I read "Thought of the day (http://www.organist.co.uk/oldread7.htm)

I could hardly believe they could print things like that in today's day.


You think they should toss out Truth from today's evil society because its not (politically) blood-suckingly correct?

[love1234]

Tbh you have been sounding very boring for days now all of u, and I think it is a good idea to give it a rest. I like this site because we can discuss other things than sex, but discussing God for an eternity is pushing things too far.


Some Bisexual people have troubles with who they are and what they do or are thinking about doing. God and His Bible make people think or at least some people think about how they act. I would think a thread like this normal as we seek to find out who we are and what God and his book have to say about it.

We are all on this earth to learn. If this thread has this much interest it should go on till everyone has learned what they need to learn or it gets boring and people stop coming back to it.

Then I'm sure sooner or later a new thread like this will show up and it will start all over again with new and old members..

I personally do not have all the answers to lifes great mysteries so I'm always willing to learn and read what others have to say about this.

[elian]

You think they should toss out Truth from today's evil society because its not (politically) blood-suckingly correct?

It wouldn't be the first time that has happened..

[elian]

Some Bisexual people have troubles with who they are and what they do or are thinking about doing. God and His Bible make people think or at least some people think about how they act. I would think a thread like this normal as we seek to find out who we are and what God and his book have to say about it.

We are all on this earth to learn. If this thread has this much interest it should go on till everyone has learned what they need to learn or it gets boring and people stop coming back to it.

Then I'm sure sooner or later a new thread like this will show up and it will start all over again with new and old members..

I personally do not have all the answers to lifes great mysteries so I'm always willing to learn and read what others have to say about this.

Like I said, God MADE me the way I am - I'm sorry if that's inconvenient for some people - I guess some people just don't really understand what LOVE is about.. My relationship with the divine got a lot better when I started thinking of it as a loving partner relationship rather than an angry old white man waving its finger..

[Long Duck Dong]

The people had no power as they were mind controled just as they are today.

The internet can give the common man wisdom knowledge never dreamed of before.

There were some good people in the church but the church was more evil that the governments as they could have told the Truth.

Rev. 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in PURPLE (bishops) and SCARLET (cardinals) colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
17:5 And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY (2 Thess. 2:7), BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS (her daughters) AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of her saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
17:7 And the angel said unto me, Why didst thou marvel? (Stop it!) I will tell thee the MYSTERY of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


This right here is one of the reasons most everyone on earth was not allowed to read the Bible for 500 or so years. The Bible exposes them (churches) as evil whores.

correction, revelations refers to the end times and the harlot that is referred to in the end times is supposedly meant to refer to the catholic church cos the 7 hills ( horns ) are the ones around rome, and the seat of the harlot, is supposed to be the vatican.....etc etc

making a statement that the bible exposes the churches as evil whores, is a false label, as it implies that churchs as a whole, are all evil whores.... that is not the case at all as many of them have no connection to rome or the vatican.....


people are no more mind controlled back then, than they are now..... the bible warns against false prophets and those who proclaim to know the truth in jesus's name......

true believers in christ, know to open their hearts and minds to him and wisdom shall be theirs, as they shall know of the son of god, and no longer follow the falsehood of the * truth speakers *, the false prophets.....

for somebody that quotes the hell outta the bible, you miss the very essense of faith.....its not how many verses you can spam a forum with, but the light of your own heart, that will bear witness to the truth of your convictions.... hence why many people do not claim to be a follower of christ, they do not need to, cos the way they share and communicate, is witness enuf.....

were christians not told, in the bible, not to preach the bible to others and speak in the name of christ, but be silent and let the light of christ be a witness to others ??????

[void()]

Void peeks in, reads, sighs, turns and wanders along with a wave over his shoulder.

[darkeyes]

Tbh you have been sounding very boring for days now all of u, and I think it is a good idea to give it a rest. I like this site because we can discuss other things than sex, but discussing God for an eternity is pushing things too far.

Yas actually not wrong Sam.. but if the daft buggas will insist on showin me bare leg 2 bite...:tong:

[pepperjack]

correction, revelations refers to the end times and the harlot that is referred to in the end times is supposedly meant to refer to the catholic church cos the 7 hills ( horns ) are the ones around rome, and the seat of the harlot, is supposed to be the vatican.....etc etc

making a statement that the bible exposes the churches as evil whores, is a false label, as it implies that churchs as a whole, are all evil whores.... that is not the case at all as many of them have no connection to rome or the vatican.....


people are no more mind controlled back then, than they are now..... the bible warns against false prophets and those who proclaim to know the truth in jesus's name......

true believers in christ, know to open their hearts and minds to him and wisdom shall be theirs, as they shall know of the son of god, and no longer follow the falsehood of the * truth speakers *, the false prophets.....

for somebody that quotes the hell outta the bible, you miss the very essense of faith.....its not how many verses you can spam a forum with, but the light of your own heart, that will bear witness to the truth of your convictions.... hence why many people do not claim to be a follower of christ, they do not need to, cos the way they share and communicate, is witness enuf.....

were christians not told, in the bible, not to preach the bible to others and speak in the name of christ, but be silent and let the light of christ be a witness to others ??????

Wellsaid.:)

[Hephaestion]

......... discussing God for an eternity .........

Perhaps that is what happens in Heaven or maybe that's somebody's idea of Hell?

Loved the late comedian Dave Allen's farewell comment to his shows: "Goodnight and may your God go with you"

[pepperjack]

Tbh you have been sounding very boring for days now all of u, and I think it is a good idea to give it a rest. I like this site because we can discuss other things than sex, but discussing God for an eternity is pushing things too far.

I'm bored! I wanna argue about religion & orgasms damnit!:soapbox:

[darkeyes]

I'm bored! I wanna argue about religion & orgasms damnit!:soapbox:

No talkin bout religion pepper.. Sam sez so... always do just wot Sam tells me:bigrin:... an yas on wrong thread for orgasm.. an ifyas bored.. go create yasel an orgasm an take yasel 2 heaven..:tong:;)

.. an gerroffa me soap box:eek:.. u wanna borrow it.. ask...:rolleyes: or findya own...:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

No talkin bout religion pepper.. Sam sez so... always do just wot Sam tells me:bigrin:... an yas on wrong thread for orgasm.. an ifyas bored.. go create yasel an orgasm an take yasel 2 heaven..:tong:;)

.. an gerroffa me soap box:eek:.. u wanna borrow it.. ask...:rolleyes: or findya own...:bigrin:

Was just being playful w/Sam, poking harmless fun to break the boredom.:smilies15

[darkeyes]

Was just being playful w/Sam, poking harmless fun to break the boredom.:smilies15

Will have nunna that talk pepper.. didntcha read wot she sed.. NO MEN OVA 40 for ne kinda playful activity...:bigrin:

[pepperjack]

Will have nunna that talk pepper.. didntcha read wot she sed.. NO MEN OVA 40 for ne kinda playful activity...:bigrin:

Did not see anything near that on her profile but she does describe herself as "fun loving" & as "liking most people." By the way, u should be proud of me! I rented a popular current movie today titled The Adjustment Bureau; it's all about FATE!:impleased

[darkeyes]

Did not see anything near that on her profile but she does describe herself as "fun loving" & as "liking most people." By the way, u should be proud of me! I rented a popular current movie today titled The Adjustment Bureau; it's all about FATE!:impleased

1 thing ya shud kno... Sam is me m8... we will b out on razz lata togetha... so do have some idea of wot she likes an dislikes.. she is def fun luffin... an gr8 fun 2 b wiv.. cheeky cow tho... but she dus like most peeps.. she is just nice.. 2 bloody nice for this place methinks sumtimes.. but likin an fancyin isnt quite the same ... I like me mum an dad but dont bloody fancy 'em:tong:.. c wot she sed on the 50s thread... its laid out in black an wite forya..

..an am havin anotha bitta fun Pepper... am not always an intense serious cow ya kno... life is 2 short 2 b serious all the time...

Hope ya enjoyed the film.. havent seen it but will prob at some stage... Damon leaves me a bit cold.. but do fancy Emily Blunt a tadge.. tee hee.. :bigrin:

[pepperjack]

1 thing ya shud kno... Sam is me m8... we will b out on razz lata togetha... so do have some idea of wot she likes an dislikes.. she is def fun luffin... an gr8 fun 2 b wiv.. cheeky cow tho... but she dus like most peeps.. she is just nice.. 2 bloody nice for this place methinks sumtimes.. but likin an fancyin isnt quite the same ... I like me mum an dad but dont bloody fancy 'em:tong:.. c wot she sed on the 50s thread... its laid out in black an wite forya..

..an am havin anotha bitta fun Pepper... am not always an intense serious cow ya kno... life is 2 short 2 b serious all the time...

Hope ya enjoyed the film.. havent seen it but will prob at some stage... Damon leaves me a bit cold.. but do fancy Emily Blunt a tadge.. tee hee.. :bigrin: Thanx for the eye-opener but I never "fancied" her; just a little levity, being playful, ornery; just like to kid with people I like; As it turned out, disc is defective, won't play, so , apparently it is against Fate's will for me to see this movie at this time.

[elian]

Oops, I bet you thought this thread was going to sink out of existence, right?

The song I really wanted to link to from them I can only get a 30 second sample of so this one will have to instead.. <smiles>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEic8ORhqc

[mariersa]

Not to worry Sam, I'm responding therefore this thread is bound for Purgatory. Amen

[*pan*]

if god made adam and eve and their son went into the land of nod (after killing his brother),where other people were and lived, who were they ? are adam and eve the only people of god ? this question only gives creedence to the alien theorists that aliens visited earth and had some influence on early man. and where does the cave man fit into all this ? why does the bible have so many rules that makes almost any natural desire bad ? if it feels good it must be bad ? something is wrong here. it seems that all one god religions are to control people and make people seem evil, anyone who is of a one god religion and are bisexual or gay are evil according to their own religion. these are not my words but from my studies of other religions. and from what i been reading in this post some one god religion people are saying the content of the original thread is sinful. now i'm confused as well lol.

[mikey3000]

Genesis 26: Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all[b] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Who was "Our"? Is there just one God? The Bible says different. Hmmm...

[void()]

Oops, I bet you thought this thread was going to sink out of existence, right?

The song I really wanted to link to from them I can only get a 30 second sample of so this one will have to instead.. <smiles>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsEic8ORhqc

Actually I don't mind either way. This thread can be like _The Song That Never Ends_. Does not imply I need to be listening. Really not presently, merely seeing it as 'background noise'. Recently got scared by a few pictures and a story I read online concerning the pictures. These pictures aren't of an erotic nature.

They are pictures of smiles. I hesitate in posting links as these really frighten even someone whom it takes much to frighten. They remind me of H.P. Lovecraft's _At The Mountains of Madness_, tales so terrifying you realize ten years later you're still afraid of a few simple words, due to maddening night terrors. I have screamed, wept in fear of C'thulu. So these pictures, man, I tell ya are some scary shit. People die over them, no joke.

Here (http://www.creepypastaindex.com/creepypasta/the-curious-case-of-smile-jpg) is the story better than I can tell it. You've been cautioned. If you look at the pictures and wind up committing suicide or are driven from the Internet, you can't say you weren't given fair warning. in all seriousness, people die over these things.

[elian]

Actually I don't mind either way. This thread can be like _The Song That Never Ends_. Does not imply I need to be listening. Really not presently, merely seeing it as 'background noise'. Recently got scared by a few pictures and a story I read online concerning the pictures. These pictures aren't of an erotic nature.

They are pictures of smiles. I hesitate in posting links as these really frighten even someone whom it takes much to frighten. They remind me of H.P. Lovecraft's _At The Mountains of Madness_, tales so terrifying you realize ten years later you're still afraid of a few simple words, due to maddening night terrors. I have screamed, wept in fear of C'thulu. So these pictures, man, I tell ya are some scary shit. People die over them, no joke.

Here (http://www.creepypastaindex.com/creepypasta/the-curious-case-of-smile-jpg) is the story better than I can tell it. You've been cautioned. If you look at the pictures and wind up committing suicide or are driven from the Internet, you can't say you weren't given fair warning. in all seriousness, people die over these things.

"_The Song That Never Ends_" - yes, something a lot like that I think - at least until we run the damn place into the ground..again..but somehow we all seem to cling to hope, and it works - generally - but sometimes there's also no substitute for direct action. I am seeing more and more that if you want to be happy, there is no one who can give that to you, you MAKE your own happiness. Same way with trying to change someone else, you can wish and hope and cajole all you want, but people only change when THEY want to change and THEY see the wisdom in it.

Ever do a meditation on love? Where you imagine a great warm loving force as a single point of light and imagining that light washing over you, permeating your whole being? Wouldn't it just blow your mind to know that the love you perceive as outside of you has ALWAYS been a part of who you are? You helped create it, it's not a foreign force coming into you - it's a force that is coming back home.

We talked about "running away" in the other thread, but what if there was no where to run to? I guess to some extent you can "run away" in this world, but sooner or later it catches up with you. I doubt that in reality we are running much of anywhere where mental and spiritual issues are concerned. Still, I can't say I wouldn't try it - if I was being battered at home for example I would DEFINITELY run away and hopefully be healthier for it.

Ok, well I was tempted to click the link but I learned a lesson a long, long time ago that sometimes NOT knowing the answer is actually better for you.

Your "head-stupid" friend,
E

[Hephaestion]

1) Elian - Yep! (nice song)

2) Mariersa - This is purgatory

3) *pan*

a) Adam + Eve (why a rib?) ---> children ---> incest --> the world

b) Aliens visiting? To paraphrase an early sketch of Rowan Atkinson playing an alien visitor to Earth (with electronic translator problems) "Beware the one who calls himself Anthony Wedgewood Benn. He is a Vlorn from the planet Thrall"

c) I like Wedgy

4) Mikey3000 - Our God was obviously a Caucasian Mongoloid Congoloid Amerindian Aborigine; with a wicked sense of humour.

5) Void - It's the precursor to the 'doggy dentures' ad on British TV.

.

[void()]

"5) Void - It's the precursor to the 'doggy dentures' ad on British TV."

Same ad here on Yank telly, along with neck baskets and some guy making millions with a secret sold for only $19.95, hurry and order now he'll double up the offer! *lol*

[darkeyes]

1) 4) Mikey3000 - Our God was obviously a Caucasian Mongoloid Congoloid Amerindian Aborigine; with a wicked sense of humour.

5) .

'Scuse me.. but God is a 5'6" tall, overweight, sometimes over bearing, very determined, hypercritical and bossy woman from Salford in Greater Manchester now residing in my fair city and thinks she owns the place and everyone in it... I know she is God cos she has been telling me ever since I can remember and has proven it by knowing exactly what Ive done and when and why..... it is more than just having eyes in the back of 'er head lemme say that.. but she also has a heart of gold, is very wise, loving and wouldnt have anyone else for a mum an wot she dus wiv Lancashire Hotpot, Cheese an Onion Pie, Meat an Tattie pie an home made strawb and rasp jam is nowt short of miraculous!!!!!

So there ya have it.. God is in fact... horror of horrors, guys.. a Goddess....:bigrin:

... an me too likes Wedgie... dare me say it.. have met 'im a few times an all... tee hee...:tong: Got the buttons on 'is jacket cuffs caught in me hair Ice.. wotta tangle.. an wos bloody head sore b4 they wer untangled... 'e wos ver nice an apologetic... he took me across the road from the Brighton Pavilion down 2 the sea front and bought me an ice cream an some pop an me dad a pint an they exchanged funny tales of summa the daft ole codgers they knew in the old Labour Party... didnt care who or wot they talked bout..all me had me eyes on wos the guys in their almost nuthins prancin 'bout on the beach..... me adolescent thoughts wer ver rude... God forgive me.. soz mum.. she wudda known ne way.. she is afta all u no hoo...tee hee:bigrin:

[Gearbox]

Who was "Our"? Is there just one God? The Bible says different. Hmmm...
Didn't he create the Angles and the Djinn first?
He was probably holding council with them over the dubious decision to create Humans. You can't get any more dubious than THAT!:rolleyes:

I bet there were a few "Thou is surely fekin joking? Really?"'s thrown about at that little debate.:bigrin:

[elian]

.. Wouldn't it just blow your mind to know that the love you perceive as outside of you has ALWAYS been a part of who you are? You helped create it, it's not a foreign force coming into you - it's a force that is coming back home.

I can't wait for you guys to hurry up and learn the lesson about "inside" and "outside" so that I move on to teaching you all about "on top of" and "beneath" <wicked evil grin> <drools>