Thread from a different forum

[Jobelorocks]

I was reading a thread in a Catholic forum with a man asking what business women look for in men. The comment below is a real comment from a woman responding to the mans question. It never ceases to shock me how mean hearted, unfair, and stereotyping people can be. She said this,

"Understand that she is going to consider herself equal to, if not superior to you in every way. She's going to put her career in front of you and consider her career more important than having children. She'll be unlikely to want to stay home with the babies, and will have them in day care so she can return to the working world. She will want to split any household responsibilities either straight down the middle, or you will get somewhat more of the responsibilities. If those elements don't bother you, then plow on ahead."

[welickit]

Obviously you are assuming it was written by a woman and not a man who is pissed off at wife. There are very similar postings all over the internet written by cheating husbands trying to justify their actions.

The posting should perk the interest of those men who wear panties.

[Jobelorocks]

Well in her name and profile it says she is a woman. I think she is mad at the world because it is not looked to kindly upon to be a stay at home Mom in our society.

[elian]

The post has value because there are a lot of men in the world who still think that women should be confined to the home and raising the children - one of my friends still resents the fact that women can drive cars (rrrgh, don't get me started). Some women are perfectly happy with staying at home to raise the children, and some children really do need that much care but the question was about "business women" and as far as I can tell it's what some men need to hear..the "plow on ahead" part seems a little over the top but then again as far as I know they still don't allow priests in the Catholic Church to marry either..

[Jobelorocks]

I have read numerous posts by her and she is super Trad and thinks women should have to wear scarfs on their heads, long sleeve tops and floor length skirts too. She also thinks the husband should have absolute authority in the household. ugghhh.... Why would a woman do that to herself?

[Katja]

The post has value because there are a lot of men in the world who still think that women should be confined to the home and raising the children - one of my friends still resents the fact that women can drive cars (rrrgh, don't get me started). Some women are perfectly happy with staying at home to raise the children, and some children really do need that much care but the question was about "business women" and as far as I can tell it's what some men need to hear..the "plow on ahead" part seems a little over the top but then again as far as I know they still don't allow priests in the Catholic Church to marry either..

It is a view some women have. There are women who are traditionalist and regret that time and events have moved on, and that women now are entitled to the same rights, opportunites and responsibilities as men. There are even more men with that view and feel threatened by modern ambitious, intelligent and successful women.

I do not subscribe to that view but do accept it to be valid in the sense that if such women wish to live in a traditional way of living it is their right to go ahead and do so, but they do not have a right to impose their way upon anyone else.

Few women believe they are superior to men, indeed more probably believe quite the opposite than believe that, but most want no more than proper equality with men. Unfortunately many men are unprepared to concede them that equality and enlist the support of the traditionalist women of society and try to raise their daughters traditionalist to aid them retain and/or recover their moral and legal 'superiority'. So the the fight for equal rights for women continues.

There is a broadly similar phenomena in the world of bisexual and homosexual people, where many believe what they are is a sin or perversion, and go to great extremes to become heterosexual by medical, phsychiatric, chemical or other means. They wish the retention of heterosexual superiority because they believe it is the natural way of things and/or the will of God and so wish to become heterosexual themselves. They too fight their own right to equality with another sector of society.

[tenni]

"Few women believe they are superior to men, indeed more probably believe quite the opposite than believe that, but most want no more than proper equality with men. "


I think that this is an ideal.

I suspect that it is very debatable and variable in reality. There is much "humour" in present day societies and media where put downs of men are quite a bit more dominant than say thirty to fifty years ago.

[Katja]

"Few women believe they are superior to men, indeed more probably believe quite the opposite than believe that, but most want no more than proper equality with men. "


I think that this is an ideal.

I suspect that it is very debatable and variable in reality. There is much "humour" in present day societies and media where put downs of men are quite a bit more dominant than say thirty to fifty years ago.

Can you not tell an ideal from a perceived reality? For what you quote is my perception for good or ill. An ideal would be that it is how I ideally would wish it to be which is certainly not the case. If I did wish it to be it would therefore be my ideal.

Tenni, my ideal is that no woman or man is considered or treated unfairly on the basis of gender. Equal treatment for all in the eyes of society and the law. In theory we have equality in the eyes of the law, but the reality is that we do not have it yet in the eyes of society for women remain at a disadvantage in terms of equal opportunities in so many areas including career prospects and equal pay, when being considered for mortgages and loans, in political life and in other areas within our societies.

We face a far greater degree of mysogyny than men ever do of mysandry, and women themselves suffer from a greater lack of belief in themselves than do men because of society's male ancient predominance.

I am unable to say whether there is a far greater amount of 'put down's' of men now than a few decades ago. It may be so, but I suspect it will not be quite as much as you wish us to believe. Compared to the 'put downs' women have received over centuries and still receive, men are getting off very lightly. Much is indeed humour not 'humour', but in both instances of mysogyny and mysandry the thinner skinned and humourless among us take the word humour as intended with the quotes rather than without. Sometimes, there is I concede good cause because the humour is not always intended as humour to be laughed at by all but to reinforce a view which is offensive to many and as a ridicule. It is a subliminal message of prejudice.

There is certain amount of male insecurity and resentment created by women's rise to some success within society, and this often manifests itself in claims that many women are rampant feminists who wish for nothing less than superiority over the male. Much of this a defence mechanism intended to retain and reimpose the historical male position in society and is a tool of the mysoginist with the aim of returning women to a lesser and subservient position.

I concede there are a few areas where women have an advantage over men within our society. The greater acceptance of women's bisexuality or lesbianism over men's equivelants are cases in point, but these are trivial compared to the overall position of men and women within society and much more rare. Any areas where women have advantage over men should quite rightly be eliminated. Equality means just that for all.

I do not deny that within my gender there are mysandrists, but far fewer than some men claim, but when an entire section of society has been considered less than equal to another for millenia, it is unsurprising that some at least resent that historical treatment and develop a repugnance for those they consider responsible for their less equal position in the world.

It is equally unsurprising that on the other side there is an equal if not greater amount of dislike as they see their traditional position of power under some threat and eroded.

Neither can be applauded but we should afford more understanding to the reasons for mysandry than we ever can for mysogyny. A position intended to deprive is much less laudible and understandable than one which is intended to empower.

[tenni]

Well stated Katja. I might disagree in minor aspects but well stated.

[darkeyes]

As .com's resident "mysandrist" it is well stated Tenni you're right.. but Katja forgot 1 important aspect 2 equality.. merit.. merit of the individual and merit of the case.. equality of opportunity for all irrespective of gender.. or any other personal trait.. it should go without saying that equal opportunity means judging on merit, but many people ignore that and even don't understand it and think Katja should have explained it a little to make it clear.. there are some things where merit should not be an issue, such as access to primary and secondary education and to decent health services, but within even with those once within the system merit and in the latter merit based on need immediacy should always apply.

One thing I might take issue with is the mysogony/mysandry argument... you do not have to dislike or loathe a gender or even individuals of a gender to have reactionary traditionalist or any other kind of opinions.. the worst of them sure are mysoginist, but not all.. some women in fact can themselves be almost mysoginistic with their loathing of their own sex.. and many are self loathing because they are what they consider to be the lesser and inferior of the two genders.. products of what remains mainly a man's world... less so than it once was and becoming less so with every passing year, but too slowly like so many other injustices in our world.. and wishing to eliminate injustice does not make us mysandrist.. I am a feminist because there is so much injustice.. that does not make me a mysandrist however others love to paint that picture of me.. that some so called feminists are is a fact but they do our and their own cause more harm than good.

[elian]

Some will disagree but I think that if we fight for equality for LGBT then we also need to fight for equality in all traits that people are born with - gender and skin tone (or is that color?, maybe both - elderly people aren't treated very nicely here either) are the two that come to mind immediately.

I don't have a problem with either type of woman. I apologize in advance if this sounds egotistical. Katja is right, it feels a little scary to give up some of that male power, (after all this time we wonder if you will hate us for what you have endured??) but I think it is the right thing to do. I know what it feels like to be discriminated against because of my sexuality and when I think about it women should be free to express all of their potential to the best of their ability. At one point in my life I romanticised what it would be like to be female rather than male. But when I look at the small bit of what I can see you all going through (issues with self esteem, body image, being denigrated etc.) I imagine it seems more like hell at times.

I also take Tenni's point, in the 00's it was hard not to see a TV show or an advertisement where the father or the man was not made out to be an incompetent buffoon. Of course advertisers have a lovely history of exploiting stereotypes anyway - they created plenty of male domineering overly sexist ads in the 50's and 60's so maybe in the end their weird emotionally saturated cartoon universe will finally balance out.

[darkeyes]

We should be fighting all forms of negative discrimination, Elian.. ethnic and xenophobic, gender, religious bigotry, age, sexuality, trangender, the disabled, health, class are all areas where we discriminate in a negative manner.. and there are a lot lot more.. we can't unfortunately just wave a wand and magic all that prejudice away.. each is tackled seperately because it is the only way we can do it.. it is far too vast an issue to just say it shall be and so it will come to pass... and progress is being made on all these and other issues.. not quick enough but thats the way of human progress.. we can pass laws and have passed laws to make discrimination illegal but we still have to make the cultural shift which will eliminate it.. in the UK we have had law on many kinds of discrimination for up to half a century and more.. and yet people still discriminate in a negative way against others for all kinds of irrational reasons.. even nepotism or simple dislike or like of people.. people find ways to circumvent the law and continue to discriminate and it is them we have to convince to make it all work...they even use some kind of warped rationale to tell us why what they are doing is not against their core beliefs.. religion, ideological and political comes to mind here.. we are getting there Elian, but it is a helluva long slow haul...

[drugstore cowboy]

Obviously you are assuming it was written by a woman and not a man who is pissed off at wife. There are very similar postings all over the internet written by cheating husbands trying to justify their actions.

The posting should perk the interest of those men who wear panties.

Heh sometimes I wonder if most of those men's girlfriends or wives even know that their husband likes to wear women's clothing or their clothing.