A thread about communication

[void()]

Being a writer I have sometimes been aboard a mailing list for writers. There is often discussion on language, communication on such lists. These being how people convey ideas, emotions, relate. We study this in order to create better characters in our work.

It also translates into better understanding of people in general. For example we learn about verbal self defense and obviously verbal attacking. On the internet, we write and our writing becomes our voices. So, our writing can be verbal.

Below is posted something from a writing list. It is not my work originally. But it is something which can be freely shared. The author of the work studied cognitive psychology and language, communication, relation. They wrote a couple of books on their studies. Titles elude me but suffice it they indeed were renowned professionals and experts on the subject matter.

Why do I post it here? Well, maybe some can learn from it. Hopefully, it can improve communication here and abroad.

Thirteen Ways to Stifle Intimate Conversation



When they're used as in the examples below, their

primary effect - whether their semantic content is

positive or negative - is to bring conversation to an

abrupt _halt._



- UNLESS IT IS YOUR _GOAL_ TO CUT OFF COMMUNICATION
ABRUPTLY, DON'T SAY THINGS THAT MAKE PEOPLE THINK:

"WHAT ON EARTH AM I GOING TO SAY _BACK_?"


1. NAMES AND EPITHETS

You sexist pig!

Airhead!

Creep!

You're a saint!

You genius!

You wonderful, generous person!


*Void Note:

While the last three may appear positive, often they are barbed with sarcasm. Even if not they still halt conversation because the person being exalted is left unable to reply. If they say thank you it opens them up being seen as arrogant. If they say nothing, they again are some arrogant s.o.b, or completely stupid. So, even that which may seem praise can be a weapon to annihilate character.


2. EVALUATIONS

You lost your job because you weren't willing to turn
in your work on time.

You're always so good to other people; you never think
of yourself at all.

* Comparison shrouded in hypothesis is still comparison. When we compare, we assault character. You can never be better than a rival because if you are, comparison is lost, nor can be worse. This creates a double standard of mediocrity.

3. DIAGNOSES

I know why you won't go out with me. It's because I
remind you of your mother.

You're only saying that because you're so tired; you
don't really mean it.

You wouldn't say no if I had a bigger car and more
money to spend.

* Not sure about everyone else but at times I don't even know all the hows and whys of actions. How can someone else know me better than myself? I mean hey, if I do not know, how can they? Think of the cab scene in Die Hard 3. "Shut up, I know what I'm doing!"

"Not even God knows what you're doing, McClain!"


4. DIRECT COMMANDS

Go take off that awful tie!

Don't just throw the tinsel at the tree! Put it on
there one strand at a time, carefully!

Don't do that! Here, let me do it!

* I love this one especially. It sets up the other person to get all bothered. "Who the fuck are you!?" And once they get you reacting with hostility and violence, they have won. It is why I often do not bother replying to 'know it alls' or folks whom act superior, in authority. Because 9 chances out of 10, this is exactly what they are looking for.

5. PROPHESIES

If you marry that woman you'll regret it for the rest
of your life.

You're going to hate yourself in the morning.

* Pretty much the same as number four with a dash of number two as well.

6. SERMONS

It's wicked for you to dress like that. The money you
spend on your suits would clothe a large orphanage.

Because you spend more money than you earn, you are
always going to be in debt. Decent people budget. You
should lie awake at night and thank Providence that you
aren't living in an alley and eating out of a dumpster.

* Can we see how trolls are cowards, now? They have it easy. Toss out some bait and someone will respond.

It's wicked for you ...

That is baseless and opinion, which can not be debated. The second one might be grounded in some fact, but the continued use of opinion and subjectivity create a sword the victim needs to shield against. Unfortunately, it is a well handled sword which can not be blocked adequately. To reply infers hostility and violence ... they win.

7. INTERROGATIONS

Why did you do that?

What did you have in mind when you decided you were
going to behave like that?

Why didn't you talk to me about it first?

What was going on in your head?

What did she say to you?

How did she look?

Did she look like she was angry or did she just look
bored?

What kind of expression did she have on her face?

* These all imply you are incapable and imbecilic. You are responsible mature person with your own experiences. You do not need to justify your actions / thoughts / words to anyone but yourself. However, these interrogations reach out and slap you on the face. "Child! You ain't got sense was given a goose! I can tell you better!"

8. UNSOLICITED ADVICE

Let me tell you what I'd do if I were you.

The first thing you have to do is find an apartment.

I'll tell you where to look first.

* See? They ask questions which they have all the answers for. You've got no chance at living your life, your way.

9. HIJACKINGS

You think you had a bad day? Let me tell you what
happened to me today.

You think you work hard, but you don't know the meaning
of the word! I'll tell you about hard work.

Before you go on, that reminds me of a story I heard
this morning.

* Taking over a conversation like this is subtle at times. It furthers the purpose of degrading the character / person. "You aren't worthy of being heard out."

10. REDUNDANT INFORMATION

You have long red hair.

You're very tall.

* "Well, duh." These add nothing to conversation except a baited hook waiting for you to retort with our good friends hostility and violence. They set it up to make you out to be the 'bad guy', when in fact it is just the opposite happening.

11. REASSURING SQUELCHES

You'll get over it; you'll see. A year from now you'll
look back on this and laugh about it.

Just put it out of your mind and don't worry about it
anymore. By the end of the week, you won't even
remember that it happened.

* "But I am your friend, would I lie to you? I know you are the best at such and such. You are better than Joe Blo." This creates a vicious circle of doubt, both self or internal doubt and environmental or external doubt. If you doubt it creates dissonance in your psyche. This causes stress, depression, rage, the gauntlet of emotional turmoil. It only establishes hostility as a response. "Oh you're so defensive! Must have hit a nerve!"

12. CUTESIPATION

You're so cute when you're mad!

Well, of course I think your little stories are worth
reading; they're charming.

That shirt makes you look tall.

* I'm not cute when calm? My stories are charming compared to ...? Am I not tall? You get the drift by now.


13. CONTRADICTIONS

You are not hungry. You just finished eating.

You're not tired. You couldn't be tired.


Hopefully, you can see how these all destroy conversation. They can be used effectively by trolls. But there is hope. We can turn such tactics against them with verbal akkido. The simplest way is ignoring them. This does not grant them power, audience / victims. Without these trolls leave.

Excuse me, need to head off.

[Hephaestion]

I like it Void.

[void()]

I grin and nod with hope many people can understand. Posted it as a sort of how to guide. How to defend against trolls while avoiding to seem one yourself, might be a better title. And by the by, there are people who study conversation / posts / messages. These folks can determine specific voices in messages which may appear unrelated, but made by one individual. We read well and are well read, normally comprehending the various planes upon which this statement broaches. We watch the watchers. :)

[hgf33]

Very appropriate. This couldn't have been posted in a more timely manner, in my opinion. Thank you for sharing!

I'm a writer too, but I've lost my touch a bit since I haven't written anything in years. I never seem to correctly convey what I'm trying to say, and it frustrates the hell out of me sometimes. Thank you for posting this. It won't prevent verbal attacks because words don't change the person behind them, but it might help the rest to share their facts and opinions more effectively. I believe it's a very good reference for anyone to use, here on this site or anywhere else.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Void-Honey. All throughout my college time, I was the vexation of my much beloved English Professor because I Loved slaughtering the English language. He'd tell me "Look, T. Just cuz you're a redneck doesnt mean you have to Speak like one! Cut it out!" lol.
Proper writing can be technical or common. What ever way...it's all good. :}
Pecks..
Yer Bad speekin' Cat

[void()]

I am a butcher of language as well. Born in Orlando, FL. raised in VA, moved back to WV. Never been anything but Southern Hick / Redneck / Hillbilly / Country Boy. Was in Navy, but considering my up bringing came from two Army vets, ought to have been a Marine. I get punctuation wrong, write forever in a sentence that goes on and on, these are called run on sentence I hear.

And so far, I do not write professionally. I did write a 90,000 word draft for a novel. I planned to trim about 10,000 words or so. First time novelists are lucky to sell an 80,000 word book. You got thirteen seconds to grab the sale too. That's just how 'tight' the market has become over the past decade.

Used to write poetry but saw it didn't have much of a 'market value'. But I enjoyed it. Not put words down for a while. Been busy with ongoing living stuff, not really felt inspired ... gee, depression and anxiety attacks, one wonders. Feel plain out stuck in a really deep mired rut, and any time I go to get up, makes it worse.

I am going to change that come next Spring. Going to see about becoming certified, and not crazy certified ... been there, done that. I will be a certified Linux system administrator. Have decided after conversing with my wife, sys admin is for me. She pointed out that I don't really set and code programs, and I don't. So sysadmin it is.

Yes, it'll take a bit of time. I am willing to invest it. Although for the life me of me, can't figure out glorified toilet paper to hang on a wall saying I can do what I already know I can do .... :) But anyway, guess you gotta play the 'game'. Shame being a scout counts for nothing.

[hgf33]

As a writer, I've written lots of poems and things, but most of the what I've had printed were articles and editorials, so they were written in journalistic style. I think maybe sometimes I cross styles, and then confuse those crossed styles with a laid-back form of writing-how-I-talk, thanks to texting, chat, Twitter, and other online forms of communication that are slowly dumbing down the world, lol.

Anyway, just wanted to say I feel your pain. I also have anxiety and have had issues with depression. Haven't been officially diagnosed with either, but I'm genetically predisposed to both, and don't need a doctor to know what my symptoms tell me.

I think sometimes having issues like this actually help with creativity. Some of the most challenged or disturbed people have made some of the best writers in history. I wish you the best in all your endeavors... and you better tell us if you get something published! ;)

[Realist]

hgf,

You are usually a light-hearted, more cheerful writer....not dark, at all. I feel that you draw pictures with words and I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Edgar Allen Poe comes to mind, when I think of someone with dark issues.

Void is exceptionally bright and his writings reflect a complex thought process. I don't think that being in a herd of rednecks all his life has hampered his ability to write, at all.

One of the most brilliant men I ever knew was raised in southern Oklahoma, in the same kind of environment Void describes.

If you're intelligent and can express yourself, others will have less influence on you.

Actually, we have many excellent contributors here. I seek out their posts regularly.

[darkeyes]

I have been known to butcher the English language.. I'm almost a professional English language butcher... its not that I don't like it.. I love it.. no language is quite as varied and full of expression.. if there is another language which conveys quite the joys of living, the beauty of our world, and its depravities and chaos, it must be some langauge. In its written form it conveys everything that a human being could want from a written language which is why English literature, and literature written in English is amazingly rich.

My first language was once Scots, a sister language but not quite English and not as some would say a dialect of English... it was and is the language of the street and of ordinary people in my own country. In fact Scots more than English arguably has more right to call itself English since its roots were in the germanic tongue of the Angles more than is the language we call English which is rooted in the germanic of the Saxons and to a lesser extent, the Jutes.

Until I was 7 or 8 it was my language and still is to some degree, but I am afraid education at one of our better (state) schools knocked much of my native tongue out of me and although I am adept at both speaking and writing it, Fran nowadays is sadly a speaker of Scottish English which differs from its English counterpart quite substantially since much of its structure and grammar remains rooted in the Scots language. Almost four centuries of being made to feel second class citizens and being told repeatedly just how inferior was our native language to the English has its effect. My father used to get belted at school for using it even at primary school and we are talking now of the late 1950's and early 1960's. Not that long ago.

But Scots survives in several distinct forms and does so in greater health than the gaelic of the Highlands and islands which both the lowland Scots and after the union of 1707, the English also believed to be a barbarian tongue and was almost smothered it out of existence. Gaelic is such a beautiful tongue spoken by more people in Canada than in its homeland, and sung it is possibly the most beautiful on earth. Spoken it almost sings itself which is why it probably sounds so beautiful when allied to music... it is different from Irish gaelic, although both languages are more properly known as Erse (which is also the eastern Scottish word for arse or ass...), but its origins are in Ireland and I believe Erse speakers from the two countries can hold a converstaion talking in their native tongues.

To return to Scots, it is more expressive than English in someways.. if u want to be gloomy or curse a bit, or be mucky vis vis..talk filth.... but otherwise English is a far more romantic, and overall far more descriptive tongue. It is easier on the eyes when written also, and in its purest spoken form, normally easier on the ear... except for nobs.. English nobs and the nobs we have up here.. I havent decided which grate most.. the most beautiful speakers of English are three fold.. those from the North East of Scotland around Inverness, those from the North East of England, and those from parts of the south of Ireland... each at their best are clear, concise and quite orgasmic to listen to.. each almost sings.. forgive me for not mentioning those of you from outside of the UK, but only certain softer spoken Canadians match up to those three. Beauty in language to me always must sing a little...

Of course these are just my opinions and how I see and hear things. They are my perception of communication in the languages which are my own, so please don't get too upset, for such things are terribly subjective. And about Franspeak? Well thats a matter of personal taste.. ya like it or ya dont!!!;)

[hgf33]

hgf,

You are usually a light-hearted, more cheerful writer....not dark, at all. I feel that you draw pictures with words and I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Edgar Allen Poe comes to mind, when I think of someone with dark issues.

Void is exceptionally bright and his writings reflect a complex thought process. I don't think that being in a herd of rednecks all his life has hampered his ability to write, at all.

One of the most brilliant men I ever knew was raised in southern Oklahoma, in the same kind of environment Void describes.

If you're intelligent and can express yourself, others will have less influence on you.

Actually, we have many excellent contributors here. I seek out their posts regularly.

Thank you Realist, you're too kind!

Actually, I used to be quite the pessimist. I've just grown up since then and realized that it doesn't help anything, and it brings me down, so I've learned to be lighthearted and optimistic. I still have my moments, though, and some of my best writings in the past came from when I was depressed or in a rotten mood. Some of my best humor comes from when I'm cynical or angry, which is weird but makes people laugh, lol.

I also was thinking of Poe when I said that about disturbed writers. I'm a big fan of people who have a darker sense of imagination. Works from these type of artists has an intense, creative depth to it. That's why I don't mind the more melancholy side of me. It produces better work.

But yes, of course, when it comes to forums and talking to others, I keep things light. No one likes a Debbie Downer.

[Realist]

Fran, that reminds me of a tour at a military post, where I worked.

We had a group of Australian military personnel, who were interested in seeing our computerized training programs. After a briefing and demonstration, several of them were standing around talking to soldier/instructors.

I had one young soldier, who was not an instructor......he was just a gofer. I had him serve coffee and doughnuts to the visitors after the formal part of the tour.

I overheard him ask an Australian major, "Hey, what kind of language are Ya'll speakin'? I ain't never heard nothing like it!"

I figured I'd better get him out of there, before he called one of them a "Limey"!

The Australians got a big kick out of that!

[void()]

"Void is exceptionally bright and his writings reflect a complex thought process. I don't think that being in a herd of rednecks all his life has hampered his ability to write, at all. "

Complex thought process. I laugh in the eye of complex thought processes and sneeze on its shoes! Actually, I do take great periods of time in considering the writing and speaking. Lean more and more to being an INTP 'architect' personality type as I grow. Which at times can be interesting.

Sample conversation:

Me: "You know I have been thinking subject X. I think it is not good to do action Y for subject X ..."

Other: "Well then can do action W?"

A week passes.

Me: "I was not finished with a thought. Doing Y would cause W but Z also. We need to do C."

Or:

Me: "Ya know ..."

Other: "Blah Blah Blah ... ad infinitum ..."

Me: "Yes, but is it art?"

The point being I usually can deduce lots of different views on what ever quickly, then decide on a moderate one. Which at times can seem aloof, careless, arrogant, absent minded. And yes I can be absent minded. Often get distracted by "oh look a chicken ...", various things.

I like Fran's views on the Erse speakers, Scots. Though, from my history reading some confusion exists and a little sense of irony in a way over WWII.

Had thought the Saxon Germanic people originating from Dutch, whom later interbred with French, the French of course attempting to settle in Britain. And the Brits at the time started being called English, from the place being dubbed England, which likely did come from Anglo-Saxon. Here's my irony bit over it. If the Brits were originally Germanic, why then aid the French in WII?

Somehow that one does not quite register here. Void cranks the gears in his noodle until it creaks.

And I have read about the garbage truck philosophy. Briefly, people are like garbage trucks. They carry garbage around until they gotta dump. When they dump on you, don't take it personal. Smile and go on. No need being a garbage truck yourself.

[Realist]

I take back what I said, Void...you're a nut!

That was so funny! (or were you serious?)

Do you know who you remind me of?

Professor Erwin Corey!

Not really, but you're OK, Buddy...perfectly sane......

[Hephaestion]

Hilters plan was to spread east. Settling old scores with the French was the distraction. He expected the British to join him as they were of 'Germanic stock'. Didn't work out that way for a variety of reasons.

Also, Brits are a giant metling pot of 'races' - not just Angles Saxons and Jutes. Many preceded these three and came with the Romans for example.

[darkeyes]

Hilters plan was to spread east. Settling old scores with the French was the distraction. He expected the British to join him as they were of 'Germanic stock'. Didn't work out that way for a variety of reasons.

Also, Brits are a giant metling pot of 'races' - not just Angles Saxons and Jutes. Many preceded these three and came with the Romans for example.

A funny quirk of British immigration is that the base stock of the British (and Irish) hasn't changed very much in 8000 years... for the all various invasions by Celt, Roman, Anglo Saxon, Norse and Norman in more distant times, and more recently by Jews, Huegenot, Slav, Asian, we are basically the same as we were 6000 years before the birth of Christ.

The Scots, Irish and Welsh consider themselves Celtic, the English Anglo Saxon, yet it appears changes in our perception of ourselves were cultural not real.... invading populations may have won the war so to speak, but they lost the peace being absorbed into the native population.... DNA analyses can identify these various invasions but DNA analyses tells us that we are descended primarily from inhabitants of this coutry going back to before the building of stonehenge and a long way before what we consider the celtic invasion of Britain.

The first known settlement of britian after the ice age to populate these islands were the beaker people, and although there had been other peoples in Britian going back hundreds of thousands of years, climate prevented any real settlement, and most were transient hunters from what is now mainland Europe.

Communication being the subject of this thread is the key.. culltural wars were fought and won over time and slowly the languages of the peoples of these islands died out and were replaced ultimately by the ones we know today... English, Scots, Welsh, Irish and Scots Gaelic. All others fell by the way lost in often bitter cultural war which leave us where we are now.. a war still going on as new immigration occurs and will in time affect how we speak and communicate.. how that affects our base stock is uncertain but for now.. we are essentially as we were 8000 years ago..

So Germanic Voidie? Big question that babes... and a melting pot sure Heph.. but not as much as we think we are... in the end it comes down to being understood... I mourn loss of languages, for in our language is much of what we are and yet the most important thing about peoples is making themselves understood to friend and neighbour.. to be able to write great things.. books.. poetry.. music. To put down for posterity the greatest and even the littlest of our thoughts... in the universal languages of humankind of whatever language they may have originally been written... without those things we have little hope of getting along...