bi-invisibilty

[keladry]

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bi-invisibility.pdf

interesting read, kind of long. we were talking in chat this morning and this talked about some of the things that came up... idk it helped me to read it, recognized some prejudices i had against myself. thought it might help someone else, that's it.

[Long Duck Dong]

while its a interesting read, it rehashs issues that can not really be resolved and is selective in the issues it portrays

people walking down the road, holding hands.... are seen as gay or lesbian.... if they are two males or two females.... and not bisexual

what is missing from that, is a opposite gender couple walking down the road holding hands, can also be bisexual..... yet its a aspect that is not put into a lot of the reports, as its seen as a non issue.... what is interesting, is that its something that many bisexuals do not acknowledge either.....

the argument is used that people will see a opposite gender couple as heterosexual, so its not as big a issue, as bisexuals been seen as gay or lesbian...... when in fact, its a equal issue..... the bisexual nature of the couple is not being acknowledged at all.......

however that rises the issue of the thinking that strangers seeing a couple walking down the road, should be concerned about the sexuality of other strangers.......

I have to ask in all seriousness... are you concerned about the sexuality of strangers walking down the road ? and how does not knowing their sexuality impact on your life..... and how does your getting their sexuality wrong, affect them ???

unless a stranger walks up to me and confronts me over my sexuality and the sexuality of the person whose hand I am holding, its a non issue..... in fact its a issue we create to make a issue....... it is in the same class as saying a person walking down the street eating, may be a vegetarian and omg, how wrong it is that we assume they are eating meat.......


another aspect of the report is the way that bisexuals self identify.... I identify as a bisexual as I have a emotional and mental attraction to both genders ( to be more correct, the gender spectrum ) which according to the report, fits the nature of a bisexual, with the sexual aspect being a and / or aspect...... yet in this forum of bisexuals, I am constantly being told that I am not a bisexual......cos bisexuals are sexual people..... and due to the fact I have no sex drive, I am not bisexual. yet bisexuals that are not sexually active, are bisexual

statements like that, totally ignore the emotional and mental attractions to the same and opposite genders that bisexual people can have.... and limits the bisexual nature to only people that are sexually active with both genders.... that in fact is bi erasure by bisexuals as they are not being accepting of bisexual variables.... and what is most amusing, is that most of them are vocal in this forum about bi erasure and how wrong it is.....

at the end of the day, most of the reports such as you have posted, refer to issues that are not really bi erasure, but the way people relate to and understand sexuality .... and bi erasure is a catch phrase term for anything that is not screaming bisexuality and getting in every bodies faces......

it comes back to my original point at the start of my post..... if you see 3 couples walking down the road, two are female, two are male and two are mixed gender.... how are you going to know who is bisexual, who is hetero, who is gay and who is lesbian ??????? simple answer is you don't
but the issue presented, is forget the other 3 sexualities, the only one that needs to be considered, is bisexuality.... and what if none of them are......

it becomes a case of we are pushing people to assume sexualities of people.... and we all know how assumptions can be the mother of all fuckups.....


we have the olympics and the gay olympics..... are we going to have the bisexual olympics too.... cos there is no BISEXUAL in the title of the other two.... or should we have the LGBT and hetero olympics ?????

[keladry]

didn't say i agree with everything it says, and I'm not saying that i agree with you. i just said it helped me to read it.

I don't assume that two people who are holding hands are even a couple! so go figure that out ; ]

I don't think anyone on this site or anywhere should tell you what you are. That's just wrong. You know yourself better than anyone else.

And personally I knew a total of zero people who openly identify as bisexual. zero. before coming to this site.

Don't tell me society doesn't try to put us into a gay or hetero box...

[Long Duck Dong]

you don't assume that two people holding hands are even a couple....


I like you, I like you a lot.......you think outside of the square and I am willing to beat you live outside of the box... you are not just a bisexual.... you are a person that can define yourself mentally, emotional and sexually, instead of just using the box term, bisexual

[keladry]

Trust me, I don't have things figured out, not even a little bit. I just think a lot. If I seem more accepting of my attractions its only because I'm a pretty tolerant person when it comes to other people, not so much when it comes to myself.

I'm not a fan of the bisexual label as it turns out.... that's one of the things I liked about this report (how it describes the inadequacy of our language to express how I feel).

As for the holding hands thing, it's just don't you ever hold hands with your friends when you go for walks? You should try it, it can be lovely and not sexual : ]

[Long Duck Dong]

lol there are some people that spend their whole lives, never figuring things out, they just know what feels good and right..and what works for them.....

I can ID as bisexual asexual, pasexual omnisexual etc.. cos I lack a sex drive, but I enjoy the company of people, be they LGBT, hetero, gender undefined etc.......and the one label I perfer above all else... is friend....

the issue with the labels is that if you define how you see yourself, you can get jumped on in this site cos you use a label and others have issues with labels.....
but its a YOU thing.... you use words to define you...and thats where labels can be handy..... plus its hilarious to watch people talk about how they hate labels, than they call themselves bisexual, which is a label lol

yeah holding hands, hugging etc.... I am cool with it all.... I honestly do not care what others may think or feel about two males hugging etc.......
its just that some people are stupid enuf to start swinging fists, and I am not the type of person that will cower down..... unfortunately thats also one of my faults, I will not walk away from a fight......

I am the type of person that is not worried about what colour a person is, or what creed, culture, sexuality, gender etc...... you need a hug, i will give you a hug, you want a kiss, I will give you a kiss, you need a feed, I will give you a feed, you need a bed for the night, I will give you my bed.... and yeah you could be my worst enemy, and it makes no difference to me........

cos all our differences aside, we are simply human.......

[sammie19]

Keladry, I'm like you. I don't have everything worked out. I think of myself as bisexual but it isn't an adequate label. It is a convenient and inadequate description to describe a sexual reality in many people which takes many different forms.

I am attracted to people of either sex, but live in a same sex marriage with a lesbian woman. I have never fallen in love with a guy ever but have always loved their company and their ability to get me going sexually and what they can do for and to me and the giving them appropriate amount of repayment in kind.

So I am one kind of bisexual, but such is the variety of ways that people respond to other people there are almost limitless other kinds.

Bisexual invisibility is something I have never felt strongly about. I don't know if the human condition is naturally monogamous or not, although I think there is enough evidence to suggest it is not.

Those bisexuals who prefer monogamy, whether in a heterosexual or bisexual relationship are generally going to be considered straight or gay by the outside world. That is the world we have with quite fixed attitudes and sends bisexuality into a secondary position behind the other two "main" sexualities. It is not a position either the hetrosexual or gay world is prepared to surrender, as within both worlds there are numerous different views about bisexuality within each. It is not surprising because that's how it is within the bisexual world too.

Until the day dawns when sexuality is no longer a great issue, we will always be considered kind of an afterthought. An anacronism which is an inconvenient or awkward truth to some, or one to be put down and ignored as something which is not real or important.

The suspicion of bisexuality within both the other camps consigns us to invisibility but short of every bisexual on the planet declaring themselves and going about fucking who and when we please in the way we please it isn't something we will ever make a great deal of progress on. Even then such would be the horror of those other worlds we would end up being divided into even more subgroups which would do us and our cause no good whatever.

The only other way to eliminate bisexual invisibility is if enough of us entered into sufficent polyamorous and polygamous relationships that the straight and gay worlds would have no option in time but to recognise that things aren't as they believe them to be.

My partner, friends and I discuss and argue this issue time and again but never do we come near to concensus. Not even those of us who are bisexual because we are so different and see how human relationships are so different for each of us and what we wish from them.

What it comes down to is the question of whether or not it is important that we are not visible. I don't care much one way or other. As long as society allows me to love, marry, have a relationship or just a good fuck with the person I do it isn't important to me. As long as I am not discriminated against because of what I am I simply don't care whether I am visible as a bisexual or not. I am what I am.

As far as I can see the only way I am discriminated against by society because of my sexuality is that I am not allowed to be married to more than one person at the same time. I am discriminated against by people, institutions and groups within society, but not by society itself to any great degree.

I want to see a world where people no matter their sexuality are invisible in this sense - that it becomes a non issue, and that it becomes a bit like asking people whether they like red or white wine, or rose, or whether they prefer gin, whisky, tequila or vodka, beer or lager or a soft drink, black coffee or white, or with cream, tea with lemon milk or without.

People like many things and we make no issue of it. From that perspective, visible or invisible means nothing to me at all. That's how I feel about sexuality. Maybe it's naive and wrong of me and people have told me so and will again no doubt, but that's how I see the issue of bisexual visibility. In the greater scheme of things, quite unimportant.

[mariersa]

Sammie: I agree with everything you said!!! Personally I too believe that monogamy is not inherent to human nature but rather a choice made by two, three or more peeps. Simply, yes sexuality should be invisible hoever, it has become a tennis match between Religion, Politics and the two main sexual indentifiers, back and forth same old thing, yes, no, right, wrong nonsense why should anyone care. Humankind should concentrate on important global issues for the improvement of the human condition, not who's banging who or is that whom. :tong::bigrin:

[Long Duck Dong]

sammie we have similar in NZ, but what has happened is that the LG of the LGBT, still want to stand out...... the bisexual community have more or less.... become one of the crowd......

its what the bisexual community wanted, but they now have issues with the fact that the bisexual community has become one of the crowd, they are no longer making statements and crying about their rights... cos they have them now..... and a lot of the bisexual stomping grounds have disappeared...lol.... and many bisexuals want them back cos they enjoyed the * meating * places

things like opposition to the LGBT pride parades has become one of * you want it, you pay the bills instead of expecting the taxpayers to foot the bill, just like everybody else * ... and that is the main reason why NZ hardly has LGBT parades now..... in the past, any opposition immediately ended up with cries of homophobe / anti LGBT... and often $10,000s of dollars in costs and clean up fees after the parades, that ended up be paid for by city councils.....

there are still minority groups that feel that as bisexuals, we should have special consideration... but there is simply not enuf money to be given to every group..... and each group has to plead their case, and each case is assessed based on its merits....... and considering that the gay websites and groups are generally self supporting.... the cries of the bisexual minorities fall on deaf ears.......

is it a good thing or a bad thing.... well thats up to the individual..... but to be dead honest, when you become one of the crowd, then you become one of the crowd, no longer a *special case *

that was no clearly to the LGBT community in NZ than when the civil union law was passed..... then 3 months later, the second part was passed, removing all of the loopholes that the LGBT had been enjoying..... things like two same sex people could be in a relationship and recieve the benefits of single people... but two heteros in the same situation, didn't......

when the second law was passed, there was a shocked silence from the LGBT.... then the realization that they have been made the same as everybody else.... and thats when a lot of the cash carrying LGBT suddenly become people that had to work hard for everything.........

we either want to be one of the crowd, or we don't..... we can not walk the middle ground and say we are one of the crowd, but give us this and that as we are special cases ......

[darkeyes]

Personally I agree with you Sam.. in principle.. eventually.. the struggle for lgbt rights is part of the struggle for human rights... we call it gay rights cos principally it has been about fighting for the legalisation and retention of the rights of people to have same sex physical relationships, and for the rights of same sex relationships to be recognised legally in the same way as opposite sex ones. Bisexuals have been in the vanguard of that since the beginning but have been subsumed by what we are fighting for not because of what they are.

Polyamorous polygamous legal unions relations now that we are moving into times when same sex marriage or union is legally recognised would if made legal become just polygamous marriages or unions, and those within those relationships given the same rights in society and by the law that any other polygamous relationship would be. Because it involves more than two people by definition it becomes bigamous or polygamous whatever the sexuality of those involved. The time isn't right yet for bisexuals or anyone else to retreat back into their shell and say the work is done. We still have a huge fight on our hands against society's minions.. the churches, mosques and many institutions, the individuals and groups who would destroy us and remove from us our rights and stand in our way to achieving true acceptance and equality.. those within the gay and straight communities who do not trust or even accept bisexuality as a sexuality.. as long as there is work to be done we cannot become invisible however much we wish to. I may not be bisexual but even I can see that..

.. the fight for bisexual rights is the same as the fight for gay rights... there may be friction between some gays and bisexuals, but until that hurdle is overcome bisexuals cannot hide behind that cloak of invisibility. They must be visible and show their support for the struggle which is yet to come.. such as the proposed constutional amendment banning same sex marriage in the US. Reaction to our progress is and always has been a danger and we may be beginning to see that in the United States and we are not yet secure enough elsewhere for that not to be considered dangerous for us all... we are not yet safe, and we have not yet won the war.. until that day comes, invisibility whatever our sexuality is no option... and even then.. long after peace is declared we shall have to continue with our visibility until such times as it is no issue... and becomes something that just is.. not something that people can hate or argue over... we have to win the peace..

[tenni]

keladry

I agree that this is an important report and bisexuals may need to become more sensitive and aware as to whether we are accepting bi erasure and bi invisibility.

Recently, someone posted that there was a Homo Hero award in some US community. This award was given to lesbians, gay men and bisexuals. A bisexual is not a homo. A bisexual is a bisexual. Although it is nice to acknowledge people who do good deeds, the man given the award was not a homo or gay. He was given the award for his efforts in the realm of bisexuality. This award was thought up more than not by gay & lesbian people. They probably thought that there is acceptable and wonderful to give a bisexual a homo hero award. Almost as if there is no difference "bisexuals are really gay/homos anyway" kind of thinking. I see this as an example of bi invisibility. It is a systemic example of bi invisibility. It was after reading this report and how the GLBT organization in San Francisco was assuming that bisexuals are no different than gays so they just didn't include them in their boards etc. that made me become a bit more aware of bi erasure and bi invisibility.

Bi invisibility and generally what Sammie state has validity. Whether individuals or systemic (institutions) is the main cause of bi invisibility seems something people here like to debate. I'm of the mind, that we need to be very much aware of bi erasure and bi invisibility on a systemic level (such as the homo hero award). Just as it was at the systemic level that gays fought for their same sex rights, it may be important for bisexuals to point out to others and especially under the GLBT banner that we are not really the same and really gay (homosexuals). It does matter whether we are given a homo hero award or a best bisexual award(as a poor example of an alliteration?) Yes, it is human rights but that is too broad and vague. There are specific yet not clearly outlined rights that are more appropriate for bisexuals than monosexuals. The poly aspect that Sammie points out may be one that is most specific to bisexuals. The small aspect of recognizing that bisexuals are not homos and really shouldn't be given an award with that in it.

Since you are a new member, it should also be noted that there is an biromantic asexual posting on this thread. He has no interest in having sex personally due to a lack of sex drive and yet goes on and on posting about sex. His perception on such biseuxal issues is coloured by his asexuality imo.

[Long Duck Dong]

keladry

Since you are a new member, it should also be noted that there is an biromantic asexual posting on this thread. He has no interest in having sex personally due to a lack of sex drive and yet goes on and on posting about sex. His perception on such biseuxal issues is coloured by his asexuality imo.

and there we have it, don't we......bi erasure in the site cos some people do not fit the image of what bisexuals can or can not be....

the fact that I spent 20 years having sex with both genders, means nothing, does it ??????

I am not sure what is more hilarious, the fact that as a asexual, I have been more sexually diverse than you.... or the fact that I am openly out and not ashamed of who I am....... or the fact that you are telling others how they should fight bi erasure and be more bi visible while you are busy telling people in this site, who can and can not be bisexual and who can and can not have a opinion and the whole time you are closeted and too ashamed to come out as bisexual in case people think you are gay ( and you posted that yourself )

you should take a lesson out of your own book and stop talking about how people should be more visible and out... cos you have no idea about being out as a bisexual.....

at least I have a wide range of sexual experiences to call upon, so my opinion is based on experiences....

[darkeyes]

keladry



Since you are a new member, it should also be noted that there is an biromantic asexual posting on this thread. He has no interest in having sex personally due to a lack of sex drive and yet goes on and on posting about sex. His perception on such biseuxal issues is coloured by his asexuality imo.

And your point is? Your point is that you dont accept Duckie as what he says he is.. seem to recall that lotsa peeps here dont accept u... any of u as being bisexual... seem to recall that a lot of u get right uppity cos other peeps seem to think they know better whats in ur minds and hearts... of course Duckie's perception is coloured by his view of what he is.. just like the rest of us.. stating the obvious is neither clever or desirable... my grannie didnt have sex or an interest in having sex for the last 30 years of her life...but she sure as hell had views on it..sometimes, old bag that she was, she was right an' all... and in a democratic society thats right and proper... so pack in with the personal thing.. cos thats what it is Tenni.. some people don't like anal sex and have no interest in having it either... but they comment on it on this site.. and why shouldn't they? Being bisexual isn't all about wanting to have sex any more than being straight or gay or transgendered is.. being bisexual is about being human... and trying to contribute to the betterment of the world..

I suggest you cut with the personal and carry on with what you can be very good at..

Turning to one thing you said, you are right...Human rights is a broad sweep... but then by necessity thay have to be.. that's why the lgbt and a million other issue based human rights campaigns exist... because we cannot resolve all issues of human rights at one fell swoop.. just wish we could.. would save a lot of stress and misery.. but we have to deal with such things piecemeal because it is such a huge thing, much too great for us and our little pea brains to deal with all at one go.. even within the issue based campaign there are so many smaller issues that these too have to be dealt with piecemeal.. we do what we can as best we can.. we can do little else...

[BiDaveDtown]

while its a interesting read, it rehashs issues that can not really be resolved and is selective in the issues it portrays

people walking down the road, holding hands.... are seen as gay or lesbian.... if they are two males or two females.... and not bisexual

what is missing from that, is a opposite gender couple walking down the road holding hands, can also be bisexual..... yet its a aspect that is not put into a lot of the reports, as its seen as a non issue.... what is interesting, is that its something that many bisexuals do not acknowledge either.....

the argument is used that people will see a opposite gender couple as heterosexual, so its not as big a issue, as bisexuals been seen as gay or lesbian...... when in fact, its a equal issue..... the bisexual nature of the couple is not being acknowledged at all.......

I can ID as bisexual asexual, pasexual omnisexual etc.. cos I lack a sex drive

Clearly you didn't read the entire report and you don't pay attention to the actual bisexuals who post here about how they feel invisible since they're bisexual yet are presumed to be heterosexual/straight since they're in a relationship with a person of the opposite gender.

Then there are some bisexuals here who write about how they're fine with passing or pretending to be heterosexual since they're closeted.

Yes you can ID as those but you're still asexual since you don't have any sexual attraction to anyone at all no matter what their gender is, and you don't have a sex drive either so this makes you asexual and you're not bisexual at all. You've frequently posted about how you are asexual and have no sexual attraction to anyone and you do not have any desire for sex at all and have never had sexual attraction to anyone or a sex drive or any desire for sex since you were born this way.

I can hypothetically call myself an African American billionaire all I want and identify myself as a black/African American billionaire publically but that doesn't mean that any of this is true.

[keladry]

I've been thinking a lot how to reply to what has been said. I don't really feel like I can adequately say anything, but I am going to try.

If it's all the same to everyone involved, I am not going to comment on someone else's sexuality. I would never want anyone to do that to me, and I really think you guys should try to refrain from doing this as well. This might be horribly diplomatic and cowardly, but I'm just not going to go there either way. I want to like just say, can't we be nice! lol and tolerant.... anyway.

Personally, for me, the "poly" issue isn a separate issue. One can be straight, gay, bisexual and interested in a polyamorous relationship or any of these and not.

I disagree that a ton of people entering poly relationships would force acceptance or awareness of bisexuals. It might force society to confront polyamorous relationships... in my opinion.

The biggest reason this idea of "bi-invisibilty" or even just "bi-phobia" bothers me/is so important in my opinion, is that no one ever suggested to me that I might be bisexual. I didn't even realize it was an option. There aren't obvious role models to teenage girls in denial about their feelings. I feel strong pressure to check the straight or gay box. I liked men, and thought I must be straight, and that my desires toward women were just some perverted thing. I know there is a B in GLBTQ but really to me it was all just a long list... I don't know. And I managed to survive this, but the article talks about how as many as half of bisexuals are suicidal at some point. I know I have been. Maybe less of us would be suicidal if we thought it was okay to have the feelings we were feeling... I'm not claiming to know the causality here, but it can't hurt. It makes me sad to think there are other young ladies and men in my situation, finding no validation for their feelings (though it is I think getting better)

And I agree that progress in human rights is progress in human rights. I don't begrudge gay people the progress of the movement, I'm so glad for them and admit that it helps me and everyone else on the planet. Being more tolerant breeds more tolerance : ]

I want to edit this more to be sure I am more careful with my words, but I have to go to the gym lol. So don't be too unkind, please.

[hgf33]

I've been thinking a lot how to reply to what has been said. I don't really feel like I can adequately say anything, but I am going to try.

If it's all the same to everyone involved, I am not going to comment on someone else's sexuality. I would never want anyone to do that to me, and I really think you guys should try to refrain from doing this as well. This might be horribly diplomatic and cowardly, but I'm just not going to go there either way. I want to like just say, can't we be nice! lol and tolerant.... anyway.

Personally, for me, the "poly" issue isn a separate issue. One can be straight, gay, bisexual and interested in a polyamorous relationship or any of these and not.

I disagree that a ton of people entering poly relationships would force acceptance or awareness of bisexuals. It might force society to confront polyamorous relationships... in my opinion.

The biggest reason this idea of "bi-invisibilty" or even just "bi-phobia" bothers me/is so important in my opinion, is that no one ever suggested to me that I might be bisexual. I didn't even realize it was an option. There aren't obvious role models to teenage girls in denial about their feelings. I feel strong pressure to check the straight or gay box. I liked men, and thought I must be straight, and that my desires toward women were just some perverted thing. I know there is a B in GLBTQ but really to me it was all just a long list... I don't know. And I managed to survive this, but the article talks about how as many as half of bisexuals are suicidal at some point. I know I have been. Maybe less of us would be suicidal if we thought it was okay to have the feelings we were feeling... I'm not claiming to know the causality here, but it can't hurt. It makes me sad to think there are other young ladies and men in my situation, finding no validation for their feelings (though it is I think getting better)

And I agree that progress in human rights is progress in human rights. I don't begrudge gay people the progress of the movement, I'm so glad for them and admit that it helps me and everyone else on the planet. Being more tolerant breeds more tolerance : ]

I want to edit this more to be sure I am more careful with my words, but I have to go to the gym lol. So don't be too unkind, please.

We think so much alike that it's ridiculous, lol! Hell, you've even said some of the exact same things I've been saying over and over again. Anyway, I think you've worded this perfectly, and you haven't said anything anything personally hurtful to anyone, so... Welcome! :)

[Realist]

Well said, Keladry!

Your post needs no editing!

[keladry]

Thanks guys, I was trying to say what I wanted with out being an ass, that's a rule I generally try for hah, at least I was successful for once XD

I friggin' heart you guys.

[tenni]

"and your point is?"

Darkeyes
Well, being bisexual is about being sexual for most bisexual men. There are a large percentage of sexual bisexual men who have no romantic interest in other men.

The numbers of bisexuals with an asexual perspective is very, very small. They should not present their views as a bisexual representing the majority of bisexual who are sexual bisexual men. I don't usually read what he posts but just counting the number of posts indicated to me that he was doing a lot of commenting for about the study on bisexual invisibility. I thought it worth pointing out to a new poster due to the damage this man has done towards sexual bisexual men.

A person's sexuality is all fine until they begin campaigning on a bisexual site against sexual bisexual men who do not live by the asexual's moral codes.

[keladry]

How about this: Could we all just agree to speak for ourselves and our experiences? Then maybe we won't be so insistent if someone is or isn't enough like us to be called what we are. And it wouldn't be so inflammatory to say how we are feeling... Let's use some I statements, yeah?

[darkeyes]

God knows I have enough differences with Duckie, I always have and dont expect that to change anytime soon..... he does have some right odd opinions but he doesn't represent them as anything but his own peculiar view of the world.. he twists and turns and is a very exasperating and infuriating man, but as an asexual bisexual it is his right to speak as he sees fit on any subject he sees fit.. as a human being he has that right as do u for that matter.. no one on this site has the right to talk for or represent every bisexual, man or woman.. this is not an official site representing anyone, and we are appointed or elected representatives of no one but ourselves... these forums are but a sounding board for people to express and exchange views on many things of interest to people who happen to have signed up for this site.

Any views we express are our own and it would be preferable if u tried to discredit Duckie's arguments on merit because of what they are rather than because of what he may happen to be...

[BiDaveDtown]

God knows I have enough differences with Duckie, I always have and dont expect that to change anytime soon..... he does have some right odd opinions but he doesn't represent them as anything but his own peculiar view of the world.. he twists and turns and is a very exasperating and infuriating man, but as an asexual bisexual it is his right to speak as he sees fit on any subject he sees fit.. as a human being he has that right as do u for that matter.. no one on this site has the right to talk for or represent every bisexual, man or woman.. this is not an official site representing anyone, and we are appointed or elected representatives of no one but ourselves... these forums are but a sounding board for people to express and exchange views on many things of interest to people who happen to have signed up for this site.

Any views we express are our own and it would be preferable if u tried to discredit Duckie's arguments on merit because of what they are rather than because of what he may happen to be...

This is a bisexual site made by another bisexual for other bisexuals, and an internet discussion board about bisexuality.

It's not a site about asexuality, platonic friendships, or a site for asexuals who want to pretend that they're bisexual when it's convenient for them and they're really asexual and love to trash bisexual men who actually do have sexual attraction and a sex drive that the asexual lacks and has never had.

As far as merit goes LOL Long Duck's opinions and rambling posts lack any merit, credibility, and if you take the time to attempt to read them they don't even make any sense at all except to him.

[elian]

I don't think any of you posting is a waste of time, I've read all of the posts and each of you had something important to say that was worthwhile.

My first wonder was if bisexual people make the others uncomfortable because they CAN'T readily label us? Then I realized that they do anyway. I know it irritates some people, I guess it would irritate me if I was bi and someone assumed I was gay, not because I dislike gay people but because I don't like being mislabeled. But how else are they to know? - unless we all start wearing purple and pink earrings or something. The truth is it really shouldn't f'king matter but the world being the way it is, people are curious, nosey and want to know (or they THINK they want to know).

Then again I took a course at the UU church that revolved around the book "The Gender Knot" and what we seemed to find out is that no one in the class liked being labeled at all. The men hated always having to be "strong" and "tough" and the women hated what they perceived to be a lack of freedom and independence.

So of course my question is if everyone is so unhappy with the rules why don't we change them. I guess change is ultimately coming both too fast and too slow. It's weird the way the world works, public opinion seems to sort of swing on a pendulum - It is frustrating when change takes so long but this is probably a good thing. If Hitler could've gotten everything HE wanted in an instant, that would not have been good.

http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Knot-Revised-Unraveling-Patriarchal/dp/1592133835

Labels hurt..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUlTs4-PQY#t=1m18s

[Jobelorocks]

I read this and I liked it overall. I found most was accurate. It is nice to see articles/studies/whatever acknowledge bisexuals and their unique needs and issues.

[Long Duck Dong]

"and your point is?"

Darkeyes
Well, being bisexual is about being sexual for most bisexual men. There are a large percentage of sexual bisexual men who have no romantic interest in other men.

The numbers of bisexuals with an asexual perspective is very, very small. They should not present their views as a bisexual representing the majority of bisexual who are sexual bisexual men. I don't usually read what he posts but just counting the number of posts indicated to me that he was doing a lot of commenting for about the study on bisexual invisibility. I thought it worth pointing out to a new poster due to the damage this man has done towards sexual bisexual men.

A person's sexuality is all fine until they begin campaigning on a bisexual site against sexual bisexual men who do not live by the asexual's moral codes.

my moral code..... respect your partner, and embrace the differences in people

yeah... thats my moral code...... didn't realise it was that wrong.......

btw have you noticed that you are constantly referring to bisexual males only.... not bisexuals as in males and females....... you tend to post as if females do not exist in the bisexual world......

[sammie19]

My first wonder was if bisexual people make the others uncomfortable because they CAN'T readily label us? Then I realized that they do anyway. I know it irritates some people, I guess it would irritate me if I was bi and someone assumed I was gay, not because I dislike gay people but because I don't like being mislabeled. But how else are they to know? - unless we all start wearing purple and pink earrings or something. The truth is it really shouldn't f'king matter but the world being the way it is, people are curious, nosey and want to know (or they THINK they want to know).



Lying on the grass in Princes Street Gardens a week or so ago, on one of the few warm sunny days we have had this summer, my partner and I were doing what we should have a right to do. We cuddled, pecked a little and showed affection as lovers do.

Right now this city is packed with foreign tourists drawn here by the hundreds of thousand because it is Festival time and the city hosts the largest Arts festival and accompanying fringe festival there is anywhere and it both shows off its best face and lets its hair down. Sitting on the grass to the rear of us were several American guys watching us and after a while we quite plainly heard from one "What a fucking waste of pussy" and murmurs of agreement from the others..

It doesn't take much to guess what their assumption was, and it is no different to things I have heard guys say right across this country. Hearing such things doesn't bother me in the least and shouldn't do any of us, but I know it does some. Their reaction was better than some who have taken issue with my right to display affection in public with my partner in the first place and even our right to be allowed to be together, but it is an example of mislabelling, at least in my case if not my partner's.

In a sense it was a case of both bi erasure and invisibility, but I don't view it as important for reason's I have already stated. If however there was a need to become visible, I can and have done so and will again, but bi visibility could have had an adverse affect for instance if I had decided to correct their assumption of my sexuality and they then made an assumption of both of us that we were fair game.

[sammie19]

This is a bisexual site made by another bisexual for other bisexuals, and an internet discussion board about bisexuality.

It's not a site about asexuality, platonic friendships, or a site for asexuals who want to pretend that they're bisexual when it's convenient for them and they're really asexual and love to trash bisexual men who actually do have sexual attraction and a sex drive that the asexual lacks and has never had.

As far as merit goes LOL Long Duck's opinions and rambling posts lack any merit, credibility, and if you take the time to attempt to read them they don't even make any sense at all except to him.

Is it a crime to ramble and say things without merit and credibility? You seem to manage very well.

[Long Duck Dong]

Lying on the grass in Princes Street Gardens a week or so ago, on one of the few warm sunny days we have had this summer, my partner and I were doing what we should have a right to do. We cuddled, pecked a little and showed affection as lovers do.

Right now this city is packed with foreign tourists drawn here by the hundreds of thousand because it is Festival time and the city hosts the largest Arts festival and accompanying fringe festival there is anywhere and it both shows off its best face and lets its hair down. Sitting on the grass to the rear of us were several American guys watching us and after a while we quite plainly heard from one "What a fucking waste of pussy" and murmurs of agreement from the others..

It doesn't take much to guess what their assumption was, and it is no different to things I have heard guys say right across this country. Hearing such things doesn't bother me in the least and shouldn't do any of us, but I know it does some. Their reaction was better than some who have taken issue with my right to display affection in public with my partner in the first place and even our right to be allowed to be together, but it is an example of mislabelling, at least in my case if not my partner's.

In a sense it was a case of both bi erasure and invisibility, but I don't view it as important for reason's I have already stated. If however there was a need to become visible, I can and have done so and will again, but bi visibility could have had an adverse affect for instance if I had decided to correct their assumption of my sexuality and they then made an assumption of both of us that we were fair game.

I have to apologize for some of the male human race, tho a few 100,000's of years have gone into teaching them not to drag their knuckles when they walk, we still struggle teaching them things like lifting the toilet seat and putting it down, not to scratch their ass and then sniff their fingers, and that ladies perfer intelligent, considerate people, not the missing link :tong::tong::tong::tong:

[sammie19]

I have to apologize for some of the male human race, tho a few 100,000's of years have gone into teaching them not to drag their knuckles when they walk, we still struggle teaching them things like lifting the toilet seat and putting it down, not to scratch their ass and then sniff their fingers, and that ladies perfer intelligent, considerate people, not the missing link :tong::tong::tong::tong:

My aim in my post was not to paint men as dinosaurs although many still are, but to illustrate a happening which is relevant to the thread. Things are easier for women who display same sex affection in public as we did and it shouldn't be. No matter our sex we should have that right.

There are women of a certain type who can and do take objection to such displays of public affection. They also make the the same mistake the American guys did in assuming both of us were lesbians, but their verbosity and aggression is sometimes quite frightening.

I read recently that most of the ethnically European population carried around 4% neanderthal genes and that most ethnically African carried none. So I wonder just who were the "knuckle draggers"? The Neanderthals or our pre genemix homo sapiens ancestors. It could be that we are misjudging "knuckle draggers".

[Long Duck Dong]

something that I have noticed with a lot of anti gay male people, is the issue with anal sex, and how its seen as a dirty, filthy habit.....

with anti lesbian people, its not the sex, but the idea of the butch, man hating lesbian

with bisexuals, its the unfaithful, cheating, unable to commit, image that people have......

expressing ideas like that in this site, is hard cos of the number of people that have no issue with anal sex or rimming, they enjoy it, so they would have a lesser understanding of how other people may see things.... as opposed to people in the site, that have no interest in anal sex or rimming.......

society constantly enforces the image of two ladies being sexual, as every males fantasy, as it has a less offensive reaction from males, as they see two ladies kissing, touching and feeling.... but with two males, the reaction is often * omg anal sex, shit, crap, toilet, bowel motions *

its not so much the idea of two males kissing that is really the issue, its the way people relate to two males in bed having sex, that is a big part of the issue.....

most of the anti gay sentiment involves degrading statements about anal sex.... cos people relate to dealing with the anus, as bowel motions, going to the toilet, the smell, the mess, etc etc etc..... and thats a key issue


with bisexual people, the sentiment, is around the conduct of people, the idea of cheating, unfaithful, etc etc..... and that is one of the issues that is going to affect any attempts to make bisexuality more visible and accepted.....

how do you present a sexuality that involves a attraction and desire for both genders to people, as one that is not all about being unfaithful, cheating, casual partners, when you are basically saying to people, as bisexuals we have needs, wants and desires for both genders.....

unless people are open to partner sharing, they are gonna think, * ok bisexual, that means a partner / person who is going to want me and everybody else..... am I going to matter as their partner, am I going to be seen as their partner, or just the person they live with *

when we talk about making bisexuality more visible, more a part of society, more acceptable.... we are basically saying, be accepting and tolerant of our lifestyles and the way we live.......

that is the biggest stumbling block... as you can get around the anal sex, you can get around the butch lesbian, but many many people have serious issues with acts of betray, breaches of trust, not knowing whom your partner is sleeping with etc etc.... and that is what they most equate with bisexuality

like I said before, its hard to try and explain to people that can see no wrong with their lifestyle, what others can see wrong with it and how outsiders can have issues with it........

that is why being bi visible is so difficult..... cos the image that people want to project, is one side of bisexuality.... and not that some bisexuals are monogamous, aspects, or happy in closed relationships, be they 2 or more partners.....

project the image that bisexuals care about their partners, not just about their sex lives, enforce the fact that bisexuals have urges, desires and needs for partners that are long term, not just casual sex partners...... and it can change many peoples thinking of how they see bisexuals...... and being bi visible would be a lot easier to do

but in all honesty, until you can convince people that having anal sex is not dirty and unclean and messing around in the area that people expel waste material, then people are going to reject the image of bisexual males and gay males as anything beyond people that are sick people......

and I am talking about society, not just the LGT or heteros, but people, regardless of sexuality....

[keladry]

but in all honesty, until you can convince people that having anal sex is not dirty and unclean and messing around in the area that people expel waste material, then people are going to reject the image of bisexual males and gay males as anything beyond people that are sick people......



So. this is basically my understanding of what you are saying

if people think anal sex is dirty, then they think gay/bisexual people are sick.


OR

Only when people think anal sex is not dirty will they think gay/bisexual people are not sick


I'm using gay/bisexual because that is what you used


Personally I find the idea of anal sex to be well, ew :P . I don't think gay men are sick, and I never have. I don't want anything in my ass or even to really think about other people having things in their ass.

Maybe this makes me uncultured, but I find the whole thing icky. I think about it like when someone likes food that is not to your taste.

You don't say it's gross that they like something you don't, and you don't worry about it . They might want you to keep trying the food you don't like, but if you don't like it, you don't.

I think if demands like this are made, its going to make it harder for people to accept things that are different from their own experiences, and not easier.

it might be better to say that people need to be accepting of a person's right to express themselves sexually in a way that feels good to them. Though I admit that might be too broad, part of why I like it is that it is broad. Because it goes both ways, I'll respect you right to like brussel sprouts, and you'll respect my right not to.

[elian]

Regardless of sexual identity anal sex is enjoyed by some people, while it doesn't appeal to others. It's NOT a requirement for living an alternate lifestyle although if you are in a committed relationship hopefully you share similar opinions about what you are willing to do.

I can understand LDDs point because when straight people think about same sex relationships, at first all they think about is the sex act. "what do they do in the bedroom?" "Which one of you is the woman??" They don't see the love, they don't know that two MEN or two WOMEN can love each other just as deeply. These are natural questions straight people have and we should be willing to answer them honestly - if the person asking is willing to consider it.

I actually had an editorial published in the paper because I used the line, "The gay people I am friends with who have known each other long enough to WANT to get married do the same thing in bed that OTHER married couples do, they fall asleep."

It always surprises me in a good way when I hear about two transgendered folks, or one transgendered person who finds love in an alternate relationship (or even a "straight" relationship for that matter). I see a lot of interesting television specials about the life experience of transgendered folks..more than gay or lesbian on TV actually.

[Katja]

It is interesting is it not, how many men who consider themselves heterosexual pursue so eagerly anal sex with a woman, and yet are so prejudiced against other men because they do precisely same thing with regard to men? A little word beginning with 'h' springs to mind.

[elian]

Oh goodie, a game - is it, "habaneros" ?

sorry <nods>

[Annika L]

*feigns a bewildered look* ...um...hot?