Bi & LesbianWomen to Gay men: Shut up and listen!

[Diva667]

Via SheWired:


What and how queer women think and feel about relationships (how we form them, maintain them, what we think about monogamy, non monogamy, polyamory, and all those other pesky sex questions—or even thoughts and feelings about levels of commitment and fulfillment) is often dominated in the press and in the community by men.

When Sapphic-leaning sisters are sitting around talking, rest assured we are often discussing sex and relationships, and likely even lusting after the gal sitting next to us. Lesbians and bisexual women at, for example, the annual Scholar and Feminist Conference at the Barnard Center for Research on Women, or even the annual Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival, are continually thinking about, theorizing, and telling the truth about queer female relationships, both in the home and between the sheets. And we are pursuing those relationships—whether casual, committed, or anywhere in between.



And


Queer women experience the weird, dishonest, and illicit as well as the so-called normal, familiar, and predictable in myriad ways through a prism of lesbianism that encompasses gender, race, ethnicity, size, age, class, and oh, so much more.

Lesbians and bisexual women have a different and complicated relationship to sex and relationships. It’s our socialization as females, sure, but we are much more than our social indoctrination. I cannot cite any studies about lesbian sexuality that are not over two decades old, but I do know that public and private perceptions of lesbians as extremely boring, putridly practical women in sensible shoes is a wrong one.

We hook up, we fetishize, we fuck, we marry, we practice BDSM, we make love, we live together, we hook up, we are monogamous, we are non monogamous, we are polyamorous, we manipulate, we cheat, we abuse, we are lesbian, we are bisexual, we are asexual, and all of these options and more are prevalent in the queer female community.



Link to the full article (http://www.shewired.com/lifestyle/when-will-gay-men-shut-and-listen-op-ed?page=0,0)

[djones]

It will be interesting to see if you are called out as being paranoid - sighting the overwhelming voice of the gay white male when it comes to speaking of sex / relationship issues in the "LGBT" world (the quote you included simply referred to men and not specifically GWM).

I, for one, don't think you are paranoid. And, for the record (again), I don't think all gay men are anti-Bi. Been seeing a gay guy recently and we're just fine with each other. Went to a gay bar with three Bi friends the other night and most people gave us no truck about being Bi.

Hopefully you will be heartened to know that there are groups of mixed race, gender, and sexuality that allow for each to speak on their own behalf as regards experiences, lifestyle, etc. (one such group in NYC I participate in is called BiRequest). Now, if we can translate this open model to a broader scale with mainstream exposure . . .

[darkeyes]

I love it Diva!!!!! Ya missed out the most important part of the article.. the bit that says

"Lesbians are not a monolith. There is no one woman who can speak for all of us. Every single lesbian has her own way of carrying on her affairs, and our stories do need to be told – and heard. When will gay men shut up and just listen."

The gay male collective is interested in itself and is the self appointed God head of the lgbt. It is not anti lesbian or bisexual woman nor is it anti bi man for that matter or even anti TG.. it just thinks it knows better than anyone else what is good for us all...The gay male collective is a pain in the arse. Get gay males on their own and they tend to be fine.. nice as ninepence and reasonable to boot.. gaggle them and they become the self opinionated group of arseholes that the article sounds off at... we are expected to be grateful for their leadership and handling of the affairs of everyone else...

... big shock for the buggers when the Fran gob mouths off with her home spun opinionations..

...an Jonesy?? Wudnt b surprised if the gay male collective thinks the article paranoid.. or Diva for havin the sauce to bring it to peeps attention... very thin skins the gay male collective..

[djones]

...an Jonesy?? Wudnt b surprised if the gay male collective thinks the article paranoid.. or Diva for havin the sauce to bring it to peeps attention... very thin skins the gay male collective..

I would also go further in that voicing our own opinions - and for Bi and lesbian women to voice their own opinions - is what is needed more than anything within the LGBT world, and, to do so, does not put us in opposition to gay men, it simply defines our position when standing next to them. If that logic can permeate the thin skin, I will be pleasantly surprised !

Thanks to Diva for posting the original, and to Fran for your home spun opinionations.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I love it Diva!!!!! Ya missed out the most important part of the article.. the bit that says

"Lesbians are not a monolith. There is no one woman who can speak for all of us. Every single lesbian has her own way of carrying on her affairs, and our stories do need to be told – and heard. When will gay men shut up and just listen."

The gay male collective is interested in itself and is the self appointed God head of the lgbt. It is not anti lesbian or bisexual woman nor is it anti bi man for that matter or even anti TG.. it just thinks it knows better than anyone else what is good for us all...The gay male collective is a pain in the arse. Get gay males on their own and they tend to be fine.. nice as ninepence and reasonable to boot.. gaggle them and they become the self opinionated group of arseholes that the article sounds off at... we are expected to be grateful for their leadership and handling of the affairs of everyone else...

... big shock for the buggers when the Fran gob mouths off with her home spun opinionations..

...an Jonesy?? Wudnt b surprised if the gay male collective thinks the article paranoid.. or Diva for havin the sauce to bring it to peeps attention... very thin skins the gay male collective..

Does this "gay male collective" have a president, or union dues or elections? Who decides things for the gay male collective?

Saying that gay males don't see you for the individuals you are and complaining about stereotyping is...ironic.

Pasa

[Annika L]

Does this "gay male collective" have a president, or union dues or elections? Who decides things for the gay male collective?

Saying that gay males don't see you for the individuals you are and complaining about stereotyping is...ironic.

Pasa

I think you're missing the point of what is meant by "the gay male collective".

It is not an organization. It is groupthink.

[darkeyes]

Spot on Annika...:)

[Pasadenacpl2]

Groupthink sounds an awful lot like stereotyping to me. If we can be dismissive of people in another group so easily, what right have we to demand that others consider us as individuals?

Pasa

[Diva667]

Groupthink is a type of thought within a deeply cohesive in-group whose members try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. It is a second potential negative consequence of group cohesion.

Vs.


A stereotype is a commonly held public belief about specific social groups or types of individuals. The concepts of "stereotype" and "prejudice" are often confused with many other different meanings. Stereotypes are standardized and simplified conceptions of groups based on some prior assumptions.

I think that some gay males tend to be closer knit than others, especially amongst certain groups. There does tend to be that cliquish tendency in extreme in the gay male community (or any minority community in my experience, but YMMV.) It turns into an "us vs. them" situation. I'd say it's part of the monkeysphere (http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html). Mankind are primates, when we can deal with what that means, maybe we can figure out some way to get beyond it. Until then we struggle with groupthink and stereotypes.

[Annika L]

Groupthink sounds an awful lot like stereotyping to me. If we can be dismissive of people in another group so easily, what right have we to demand that others consider us as individuals?

Pasa

Nobody is dismissing the *people* in the group, silly. That's what we're saying. The individuals...individually...are (by and large) fine, worthy, reasonable, sensible. But the sum of the parts is more than the individuals, and has its own mind.

[jamieknyc]

So far, the gay male collective doesn't seem to be paying any attention to it.....

[sammie19]

So far, the gay male collective doesn't seem to be paying any attention to it.....

lol Jamie. Isn't that the point of what people are saying?

[BiDaveDtown]

So far, the gay male collective doesn't seem to be paying any attention to it.....

LMBAO (laughing my Bisexual ass off) I don't know anyone except lesbians who are going to care about this topic or pay attention to it.

I went to the link and some guy commented saying how the whole "Why doesn't anyone listen to us or take us seriously?!?" rant lesbians say is something you hear a lot of lesbian comedians say in their comedy.

It is true though if you think about it. Gay men aren't going to care about lesbians or what they do for sex, straight women aren't going to care, bisexual men aren't going to really care, and A LOT of lesbians are very biphobic and do not like bisexual women at all and are very open about how they don't like bisexual women so they've alienated bisexual women who could possibly care or who would consider being allies.

Straight men may care but that's because they find lesbian sex or lesbian women or at least the femme/lipstick ones to be hot.

I'm also not sure why the author of the rant about gay and bisexual men wants people to think that it's the fault of bisexual and gay men that nobody takes lesbians seriously or whatever the point of the very boring and blame filled bisexual and gay man bashing essay Stephanie Schroeder wrote was?

[darkeyes]

LMBAO (laughing my Bisexual ass off) I don't know anyone except lesbians who are going to care about this topic or pay attention to it.

I went to the link and some guy commented saying how the whole "Why doesn't anyone listen to us or take us seriously?!?" rant lesbians say is something you hear a lot of lesbian comedians say in their comedy.

It is true though if you think about it. Gay men aren't going to care about lesbians or what they do for sex, straight women aren't going to care, bisexual men aren't going to really care, and A LOT of lesbians are very biphobic and do not like bisexual women at all and are very open about how they don't like bisexual women so they've alienated bisexual women who could possibly care or who would consider being allies.

Straight men may care but that's because they find lesbian sex or lesbian women or at least the femme/lipstick ones to be hot.

I'm also not sure why the author of the rant about gay and bisexual men wants people to think that it's the fault of bisexual and gay men that nobody takes lesbians seriously or whatever the point of the very boring and blame filled bisexual and gay man bashing essay Stephanie Schroeder wrote was?

When I read dimwits like you I am amazed we ever make any progress on gay and bisexual issues at all. Progress such as it is has been made despite clowns such as you not as a result of any constructive contribution you have ever made. People like you hold us back by thinking of nothing but your own pomposity and getting up people's noses. You may be a bisexual man but you would fit in very well with the gay male collective if it was not for your contempt for everything that moves save your own self importance.

Divisiveness is an unpleasant trait of no use to anyone except those opposed to us. You have it in spades and throw it about like confetti. Unpleasantness is also a very unpleasant trait. You have that in bucketloads too. I trust it makes you proud.

[BiDaveDtown]

When I read dimwits like you I am amazed we ever make any progress on gay and bisexual issues at all. Progress such as it is has been made despite clowns such as you not as a result of any constructive contribution you have ever made. People like you hold us back by thinking of nothing but your own pomposity and getting up people's noses. You may be a bisexual man but you would fit in very well with the gay male collective if it was not for your contempt for everything that moves save your own self importance.

Divisiveness is an unpleasant trait of no use to anyone except those opposed to us. You have it in spades and throw it about like confetti. Unpleasantness is also a very unpleasant trait. You have that in bucketloads too. I trust it makes you proud.

Stop being such a hypocrite. I've seen your posts where you bash men and where you throw tantrums and flame people if they don't agree with you 1,000%.

I've been out about my bisexuality long before you were even born. So take all of your assumptions about me and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.

You'd better start following your own advice in your signature since you do not give respect, acceptance, understanding, or dignity to others despite being a hypocrite and demanding such things for yourself.

I read the same article on Advocate.com and other lesbians did comment and do not agree with Stephanie Schroeder's "*whine* But nobody listens to us lesbian women! Bisexual and gay men caused ALL of our problems!"" rant of a mess trying to pass as a coherent essay.

The lesbians didn't blame bisexual and gay men, or the "evil patriarchy" as many lesbians in the past and present still do love to blame all of their troubles on, but instead these lesbians said how it's their own fault for not being out, not focusing on GLBT rights at all and instead focusing too much on gender equality or in their case female supremacy bashing that "evil" patriarchy and everyone in the male gender and trashing bisexual women too. ;)

[darkeyes]

Stop being such a hypocrite. I've seen your posts where you bash men and where you throw tantrums and flame people if they don't agree with you 1,000%.

I've been out about my bisexuality long before you were even born. So take all of your assumptions about me and stick them where the sun doesn't shine.

You'd better start following your own advice in your signature since you do not give respect, acceptance, understanding, or dignity to others despite being a hypocrite and demanding such things for yourself.

I read the same article on Advocate.com and other lesbians did comment and do not agree with Stephanie Schroeder's "*whine* But nobody listens to us lesbian women! Bisexual and gay men caused ALL of our problems!"" rant of a mess trying to pass as a coherent essay.

The lesbians didn't blame bisexual and gay men, or the "evil patriarchy" as many lesbians in the past and present still do love to blame all of their troubles on, but instead these lesbians said how it's their own fault for not being out, not focusing on GLBT rights at all and instead focusing too much on gender equality or in their case female supremacy bashing that "evil" patriarchy and everyone in the male gender and trashing bisexual women too. ;)

Well, well! Arrogant man never reads or understands a word peeps say.. nor cares 2... do luff readin ya defensive posturin... have been accused of mysandry by far better and more intelligent peeps than u.. an they have articulated it immensely better an all...

[jamieknyc]

lol Jamie. Isn't that the point of what people are saying?

The original question was how soon the lesbian community was going to be called out on it by the gay male collective. Thus far, it doesn't seem to be happening.

[straddle]

In the world today it seems that no one group gives shit or is interested in listening to another groups point of view if it differs from their own or involves compromise.

The gay male collective and the lesbian collective could rumble, but I'm sure the lesbian collective would kick the gay male collective's ass's. Everybody knows gay males are skinny and weak while lesbians are beefy heavy equipment operators. Where would that leave the fashion world.

I haven't had sex with anyone or anything (scratch the anything part)for a long time. Society collectively might label me a loser. I say fuckum; one at a time or collectively.

[jamieknyc]

In the world today it seems that no one group gives shit or is interested in listening to another groups point of view if it differs from their own or involves compromise.

The gay male collective and the lesbian collective could rumble, but I'm sure the lesbian collective would kick the gay male collective's ass's. Everybody knows gay males are skinny and weak while lesbians are beefy heavy equipment operators. Where would that leave the fashion world.

I haven't had sex with anyone or anything (scratch the anything part)for a long time. Society collectively might label me a loser. I say fuckum; one at a time or collectively.

Dunno straddle, aren't all those bodybuilders in the gym gay?

[darkeyes]

In the world today it seems that no one group gives shit or is interested in listening to another groups point of view if it differs from their own or involves compromise.

The gay male collective and the lesbian collective could rumble, but I'm sure the lesbian collective would kick the gay male collective's ass's. Everybody knows gay males are skinny and weak while lesbians are beefy heavy equipment operators. Where would that leave the fashion world.

I haven't had sex with anyone or anything (scratch the anything part)for a long time. Society collectively might label me a loser. I say fuckum; one at a time or collectively.

Ya has a point in ya first sentence babes.. no doubt 'bout it.. Jamie has mentioned beefy gay guys.. dunno wer me stands... 5' 1 45kgs and spends a fortune on girlie chic... don u worry ya pretty lil head bout the fashion world.. its safe in Fran's wardrobe an ther always plenty space for more...:bigrin:

[IanBorthwick]

Well, well! Arrogant man never reads or understands a word peeps say.. nor cares 2... do luff readin ya defensive posturin... have been accused of mysandry by far better and more intelligent peeps than u.. an they have articulated it immensely better an all...

Feminism sham response Number one: Charge of Irascibility:

Discussion: The target is accused of having anger management issues. Whatever negative emotions he has are assumed to be unjustifiable. Examples:

“You’re bitter!”
“You need to get over your anger at women.”
“You are so negative!”

Anger is a legitimate emotion in the face of injustice. It is important to remember that passive acceptance of evil is not a virtue.

“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Yes, Fran is formulaic as well and pushes her opinions as fact repeatedly. Watch for it, you can count on it EVERY time along with discounting her misandric rhetoric as "male bashing". It's part of why I lurk here and don't but put up a response or two. She has attack drones that sweep in and push their (roflcopter) "omniscience" about everything from men staring at their cleavage to the patriarchy and lack of the reality of misandry.

You can set your watch by it most days, just depends on if she feels the need to do it herself or let one of the others swing in. Want to know what makes this site a lost cause? It's people with too much time, too little to say about too much, and that I at least will admit is an opinion.

[darkeyes]

*pats Ian on the head gently*

Fine Ian, whatever ya say babes... must be right cos u say it..:)