Religious Bisexuals

[Jobelorocks]

Well I was wondering if there were any other religious bisexuals out there. I am personally Catholic, I just think that it is silly to have a bunch of old virgins make the rules on sex. lol. I heard a Lesbian minister once say "I think God cares more about what we do with our resources then what we do with our genitals." I agree with that.

[sammie19]

Well I was wondering if there were any other religious bisexuals out there. I am personally Catholic, I just think that it is silly to have a bunch of old virgins make the rules on sex. lol. I heard a Lesbian minister once say "I think God cares more about what we do with our resources then what we do with our genitals." I agree with that.

Silly they may be, but virgins is debatable if we are to believe half of what we hear and read.:bigrin:

My mum is a methodist who says if God wished us not to enjoy sex why did he allow us so many different ways to enjoy it? Her mum, also a methodist says multiple orgasm is god's way of making up to women for the shit men put us through by being so bloody shiftless. Neither are bisexual but what they think is as appropriate to bisexuality as anything else.

A friend of mine who is bisexual and is religious being a member of the Church of Scotland says she has been interpreting the bible ever since she could read and her interpretations make as much sense as anything religious scholars have ever said. She says that the story of Lot was a misinterpretation and it wasn't about Lot and Sodom and Gommorah. What the Old Testament story is about is Sodom Alltommorah lots.:tong:

[pepperjack]

Well I was wondering if there were any other religious bisexuals out there. I am personally Catholic, I just think that it is silly to have a bunch of old virgins make the rules on sex. lol. I heard a Lesbian minister once say "I think God cares more about what we do with our resources then what we do with our genitals." I agree with that.

I've been Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Nazarene, LDS, & visited Pentecostal; I'm spiritual as well as carnal; naturally, the 2 r in conflict; the word, abomination used to torment me when referring to homosexuality until I recently discovered that God sees many things abominable, such as , a proud heart, a lying tongue, dishonest business practices; how prevalent r these sins in our society & world?

[Long Duck Dong]

ex christian..... I tried to do the * right thing * and follow god but I got to the point where I said, its not in my nature to decide whom is worthy and whom is not..... specially when I am human just like the rest of the world..... and that god is welcome to judge us....

what makes me laugh is that the old testament is used to slam gays etc.... yet the new testament was when jesus died on the cross for our sins, and all the old ways no longer applied.... it was now between us and god, not us and man..... and yet religious people still refer to the * old laws * and judge people

[Jobelorocks]

ex christian..... I tried to do the * right thing * and follow god but I got to the point where I said, its not in my nature to decide whom is worthy and whom is not..... specially when I am human just like the rest of the world..... and that god is welcome to judge us....

what makes me laugh is that the old testament is used to slam gays etc.... yet the new testament was when jesus died on the cross for our sins, and all the old ways no longer applied.... it was now between us and god, not us and man..... and yet religious people still refer to the * old laws * and judge people

Well it is funny because in Leviticus, which is the book with the most widely used anti-gay verse,it also says that men cannot trim their beards or cut off the hair on the sides of their heads (that's why many jews have those curly cues), or things like you can't wear clothing woven with two different kinds of thread, but they write of those rules....They just pick and choose what they want to apply and what they don't want to apply.

[drspin]

Hello,

Religious Bisexual here and proud(a good pride though lol):bipride:. It is a bit difficult because like you I feel there are few. I think many times the religious get too tied up in the details thinking there is no room for interpretation. However, there is room for us who aren't in the "mainstream," and I think it is important to focus on things that really matter in a world where a lot of crap is happening. Love is most important:three:

[_someone_]

I don't really like using the term "religious," rather one of "having a relationship with God" or "spiritual" instead.

I love that you mentioned the other Leviticus verse; next time any one tries arguing conservatively about the "issue," I am going to bring that up :bigrin: :tong:

I think that what bugs me most is that there are both secular and spiritual types who are kind enough about hearing of gays, but bisexual is just repulsive. :rolleyes:

[Hephaestion]

Well it is funny because in Leviticus, which is the book with the most widely used anti-gay verse,it also says that men cannot trim their beards or cut off the hair on the sides of their heads (that's why many jews have those curly cues), or things like you can't wear clothing woven with two different kinds of thread, but they write of those rules....They just pick and choose what they want to apply and what they don't want to apply.

1) is there an online version of the Bible that can be searched?
2) Such as I have seen of Leviticus so far just tells how to make a blood sacrifice using birds and how to lay out the liver.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Gratefully enjoying my sixth Ramadan!

[elian]

1) is there an online version of the Bible that can be searched?
2) Such as I have seen of Leviticus so far just tells how to make a blood sacrifice using birds and how to lay out the liver.

http://www.biblegateway.com

[Satyr352]

This is a very interesting topic. I am very spiritual, and consider myself a Christian (mainline protestant, no less). I still have these bi-tendencies. Why? I don't know, I can't control my attractions. Will I burn in hell for my actions? Maybe.
Don't get me wrong. I am not stressed out over this. Just consider it my two cents. :2cents:
I will probably post more later as I sort this out.

[listeningeyes]

If you believe that Great Spirit is the Creator of all things and that everything has its purpose, then we all have our place in the universe for a reason.

Grandmother Listeningeyes
Elder of the Fellowship of the Red Road

[Jobelorocks]

1) is there an online version of the Bible that can be searched?
2) Such as I have seen of Leviticus so far just tells how to make a blood sacrifice using birds and how to lay out the liver.

Well I find in most Bibles there are little titles before sections. The gay verse is under the sexual practices section (specifically verse 18:22) and the other things I mentioned are in the various rules section(the verse about the hair and beard is 19:27 and the cloth verse is 19:19).

[elian]

Well, my family was originally polish so when I was very young we were Roman Catholic but never seriously practiced. I remember being 5 years old in a balcony watching the priest in many fine vestments, swinging around the incense talking about how Jesus was a poor carpenter - but it didn't seem at all to me that the man who was speaking was poor, nor did the church look modest.

Later on I became Methodist because that is what everybody seemed to want me to do, and the people there were friendly and loving and we sang songs about how Jesus loves all the people in the world. But later on as my sexuality developed and I realized I was attracted to men the message I was hearing became "Jesus loves all people (except those homosexuals, Muslims, etc.) So I thought to myself, as nice as these people are to me now, what would they think of me if they knew as a man that I had romantic thoughts about other men?

It was a painful thought leaving the Christian church because I liked the structure, the people really were friendly and what could be more appealing to a very young "gay" person than an ever loving male father figure? But I felt like an outcast, not because of what was said, but because of what was not said.

I decided that God gave me free will and not feeling welcome there I would seek out diversity, and unity all at the same time so read many books, attended sermons and lectures - tried to find spiritual inspiration in many places. My relationship with the divine got a lot better when I stopped thinking of God as a domineering parent figure trying to control my life, and started thinking of the divine more as a loving partner.

One of the worst things that I think the church does is separate humanity from God, including human sexuality.. Instead of enforcing the message that human beings are a PART of creation that deserve just as much love and respect as the rest.. They instead say God is up here (points) and we are down here (points) and there is nothing you can do about it... that's the wrong message and it has caused so much heartache and strife over the years. Why shouldn't people say to themselves instead, "Look, I can show loving compassion, just like God" or "God loves me so I will love others".

I have tried various aspects of a bunch of faiths, I think the closest label you could put on me is probably Gnostic Christian. In other words I do believe in the parables Jesus taught while he was ALIVE.

I celebrate the fact that God gave me free will and curiosity to ask questions and figure out the answers for myself through interaction with other people. I shy away from a faith that doesn't allow you to ask questions.

In the book "What would Buddha do?" someone asked Buddha "Why does the world exist?" and supposedly he replied, "It is creation expressing itself in many forms". ..I would also add, "and learning from itself in the process".

When Christians say "We are all the body of Christ" I take that literally, we are all a part of creation and none of us operates alone in a vacuum. In science (chemistry) there is something called the valance theory of electrons - it states that the reason chemical reactions occur is there are a bunch of electrons and protons whizzing around in all of these "unstable" elements and that their ultimate goal is to combine together to form stable elements. I wonder if that isn't true on a much larger scale - that the whole of creation and all that we see is ALSO working toward the goal of becoming more stable? Try staring out of an aeroplane window once after it leaves the runway and see if you don't see what I see - little ants, networks upon networks of systems, all interconnected trying to figure it out. It blows the mind to think that this extends literally all the way from a jet airplane down almost to the fabric of the material world.

The epiphany for me though is when I studied a little bit of Kabbalah, which is of course demonized in the Bible as an "untrue" faith but Jewish Scholars who studied the Torah also studied this mystical tradition as well. It amazes me that (some) Jewish men, the fathers of one of the great Abrahamic traditions also studied this, which is much more akin to Eastern Religious thought.

The message, at its base is very simple, "God is love, and we are God".

Kabbalah talks about reincarnation, but in a different way. The premise is that God cast us into the mortal realm with a great ego, a great lust for things in the world - but the trick is this ego can never really be satisfied by more things.

Now why, you say would God decide to do such a cruel thing? Because also, inside of each of us is a bit of divine love, a spark - the hope that one day we might all live in peace and be at peace (with the divine). What you find is that when you are altruistic, when you are giving, when you are loving and compassionate in the way the creator is - you also get something, the ego is quenched.

A lot of people would be very hungry and happy for a steak dinner, if you are very hungry all you can think about that moment is the steak and how satisfying it will be to take that first bite; and it never stops - tomorrow it will be a new gadget, maybe a new car, maybe a book.. all of these things we lust after. You don't just order the SMALL steak right?, you get the 20oz. The first bite is pretty good, but after a while you start to realize that you are full, maybe you ordered too much steak and you may feel terrible - fat and bloated at the end.

But..if you think about giving a meal to a friend, the person who is preparing and hosting the meal isn't necessarily consuming anything but they ALSO get something in return - the pleasure of company, the friendship and comradeship. You instinctively know that you've loved someone the way creation does by filling both their stomach and their spirit..as well as yours. In the same way that the Earth provides for all of us. The ego is quenched.

So what? Well, for example - ego starts wars for the wrong reason.. Ego drives people who feel they have nothing to lose to perform desperate acts. Ego destroys lives through addiction.

The ultimate 12 step program, with no dogma, is built into every human being. Healing is available to ALL people, no guilt, no shame - no loud evangelizing - it can be as simple as just silent intention, gratitude, healing and love..that is the power of divine.

It's a very powerful concept, until I read about this I didn't realize just how much I had surrounded myself with all sorts of media that reinforce that thought.

From a practical standpoint I was tired of being alone spiritually, I wanted to find a community, but I didn't want to be told "What you believe is wrong, but don't worry- we'll FIX you" as soon as I walked in the door. After searching for a long time I finally settled on the Unitarian church, it was the most "disorganized" organized religion I could find. In my mind that is good. The buck stops with the congregation, we use the democratic process and there isn't a tremendous amount of overhead in organizational control.

Each person finds God, or relates to the world in their own way, some people see God in the face of a baby or in the faces of others when the do kind works, some people see a tree grow or a flower and decide that there is physical beauty all around them that they can see with their own eyes and that is good enough.

This is the way I feel about it, and you may disagree but I respect that right, I know I don't have a monopoly on the truth but I hope that the common denominator is LOVE.

To see a world in a grain of sand
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour.

--William Blake

Propaganda:

http://www.perceivingreality.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mFRUGDY8Ao

[Jobelorocks]

I am a little confused about what you mean by Gnostic... does that mean you subscribe to the old Gnostic Gospels? The old time Gnostics believed that everything physical was bad and all things spiritual were good... some even believed that Jesus had no real physical body. I am pretty sure that is not what you mean...

[elian]

I am a little confused about what you mean by Gnostic... does that mean you subscribe to the old Gnostic Gospels? The old time Gnostics believed that everything physical was bad and all things spiritual were good... some even believed that Jesus had no real physical body. I am pretty sure that is not what you mean...

Well, I agree with what Jesus taught, but I am more drawn to the idea that knowledge should be sought out, not handed down just because "that's the way we've always done it". That is the aspect of Gnostic thought that I remember and identify with. Right now I'm still clinging to the idea that there is a much more subtle, powerful underlying (universal?) energy that I happen to think of as female and another more chaotic (demiurge) energy that I happen to think of as male. Not that either one is bad, they both have their place.

In the end, we may all be light - but for right now obviously that is not the case, there is much learning still to be done.

I probably shouldn't have put a label out there because I do draw inspiration from a lot of different places. I know that would drive some people crazy..but my sexuality is diverse, nature is diverse, so my feeling is that spirituality can be diverse as well. I think that if there is an intelligent, omnipotent God the divine is wise enough to appear to each person in the way that they would best understand.

It's funny, people think what they fear is not having power, but I wonder sometimes if what they really fear is when they DO have power...at least those of us who are not psychotic megalomaniacs.



"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it."

"Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many."

"Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books."

"Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. "

"Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. "

"But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." --Kalama Sutta

[sammie19]

Common sense and logic tells me that I should be an athiest. I too was raised a methodist although I have never believed strongly. As I grew into my twenties what religious belief I had evaporated as I learned more of the world and our universe.

I have never entirely ditched the possibility that a God exists but if he does, I very much doubt that he bears any resemblance to anything we can envisage. Influences outside of church and the religious environment which was once around me have served only to push me farther away from belief in God. Influences within the church, of whatever denomination have only served to do likewise.

To be honest, I dont care if God exists or not. So diverse are the differences we find throughout humanity, not everyone can be right about God. There are so many ancient revelations in so many religions and doctrine varies so much, that it is inconceivable to my mind that any or all are right. Even within the religion in which I was raised, there are fundamental differences which I am unable to reconcile either with my own sense of morality and decency and the faith which for some years held a tenuous grasp on my soul.

I try to be a nice human being within the emotional and psychological constraints put on me by the belief system in which I was raised and the society to which I belong. It is more important to me that I be decent within the constraints put on me by my own free will and sense of self. That I do have free will, and an independence of thought have made me stray quite far from what both society and the church would accept as right and proper. My very being has determined that to some degree because I am not a nice heterosexual girl with aspiration for husband and family.

It may be wrong of me but I articulate my own beliefs in accord with what my own sense of self tells me. So while I do adhere to some of the beliefs which both society and the church taught me is the same as anyone else. But my own independence of thought and sense of self makes me and has made me go my own way.

God does not figure much in my plans and I doubt he ever will. Fran, who many of you will know says that man created God in his own image. She has written that in forums more than once and to my mind it is at least as good an explanation for God as any other and if there is no God she is right. But whereas she would say without fear that there is no God, I simply don't know, and just don't care.

Not having faith in God or Christ doesn't leave hole in my soul, if I have one, and it doesnt make me a worse person for it. It does mean that I have a freedom to think and act outwith constraints of a belief system which means nothing to me. Some religious people think that wrong and selfish. I just take it as part of me being me.

[**Peg**]

1) is there an online version of the Bible that can be searched?
2) Such as I have seen of Leviticus so far just tells how to make a blood sacrifice using birds and how to lay out the liver.


1) yes http://www.biblegateway.com/

[Realist]

Elian, if you started a church, I'd attend it!

You've made more sense, in a few paragraphs, than any religious leader I've ever heard!

[elian]

Elian, if you started a church, I'd attend it!

You've made more sense, in a few paragraphs, than any religious leader I've ever heard!

<blushes> well, I'm not perfect by any means. I aspire to be patient and kind but there are days when my faith is shaken to the core, I second guess myself, I get angry, lose patience, depression kicks in and all sorts of things - that is why I am thankful to have good friends such as the people on this site.

[niftyshellshock]

I for one am surprised at the number of positive replies ITT.

That said, religious and bi here, too. Ethnic Catholic but with unitarian views :p

[pepperjack]

Well, I agree with what Jesus taught, but I am more drawn to the idea that knowledge should be sought out, not handed down just because "that's the way we've always done it". That is the aspect of Gnostic thought that I remember and identify with. Right now I'm still clinging to the idea that there is a much more subtle, powerful underlying (universal?) energy that I happen to think of as female and another more chaotic (demiurge) energy that I happen to think of as male. Not that either one is bad, they both have their place.

In the end, we may all be light - but for right now obviously that is not the case, there is much learning still to be done.

I probably shouldn't have put a label out there because I do draw inspiration from a lot of different places. I know that would drive some people crazy..but my sexuality is diverse, nature is diverse, so my feeling is that spirituality can be diverse as well. I think that if there is an intelligent, omnipotent God the divine is wise enough to appear to each person in the way that they would best understand.

It's funny, people think what they fear is not having power, but I wonder sometimes if what they really fear is when they DO have power...at least those of us who are not psychotic megalomaniacs.



"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it."

"Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many."

"Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books."

"Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. "

"Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. "

"But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it." --Kalama Sutta

Yes HE was wise enough to appear in a way that I could understand; that's how He is; simultaneously subtle & profound; Jesus was what HE claimed to be! HE told me that "he lives in the souls of all men."

[Dorian Earnest]

Gratefully enjoying my sixth Ramadan!

Haven't kept track of mine -- seems like 5th -- in three different countries who celebrate it differently. Strange to be in the States on Ramadan, though.

Two words -- Ramadan Kareem!

[Hephaestion]

Thanks for the URL of online bible(s).

In curiosity, I searched for sodomy (using Jobelrocks suggestion "....Well I find in most Bibles there are little titles before sections......")

Genesis 19:5-8
New International Version (NIV)

5 They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

6 Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7 and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. 8 Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

Comment here
1) Did the idiot Lot ask the men if they fancied a bit of bum nooky? Maybe they were up for it and he was just being a killjoy. Maybe he was being territorial.

2) One is subsequently impressed by his willingness to suggest 'Fuck my children instead - please!' Were they going to be bum fucked? And did he asked them whether they wanted it?

3) And God is supposed to have saved this morally deficiant moron?

[silberwolf1960]

Pagan and proud. :2cents:

[elian]

Hephaestion, with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah -

My understanding of this culture and some other tribal cultures is that hospitality is everything. but like a lot of people in this day and age the people of Sodom did not want to share their wealth.

Lot was actually the only person in town who showed "hospitality" to this group of strangers. The other people in town didn't like that very much, the people in town wanted to rape the guests in Lot's house to humiliate them.

Supposedly it was a test from the Lord and as a result the strangers revealed themselves to be angels of the Lord and directed Lot to leave the city with his family before God nuked it (hence the pillar of salt).

It is a parable for the result of what happens when we do not show kindness and share our wealth with strangers. The story uses rape to make a point - is not about the type of loving same sex relationship we might have today - or the innate feelings that a person might have regarding their gender and sexuality.

I can highly recommend the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So" - it has some great segments w/interpretations of the Bible that you might not hear in other places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajBR0dq0XXk (http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/index2.htm)

Here are some clips - I could not get the time coding for youtube to work (to clip the end of a video) but it will at least start at what I feel are relevant points..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt37RfJFyEk#t=6m17s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEXqEQ4xaY#t=3m06s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUlTs4-PQY#t=1m18s

After all of this, I SHOULD also say that I know that there are many loving, compassionate Christians who do their best to live out their faith by living the principles that Jesus taught. I hope together we can build a bridge, because we NEED a bridge, more than we need two separate hurting groups of people (LGBT vs. not).

[pepperjack]

Hephaestion, with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah -

My understanding of this culture and some other tribal cultures is that hospitality is everything. but like a lot of people in this day and age the people of Sodom did not want to share their wealth.

Lot was actually the only person in town who showed "hospitality" to this group of strangers. The other people in town didn't like that very much, the people in town wanted to rape the guests in Lot's house to humiliate them.

Supposedly it was a test from the Lord and as a result the strangers revealed themselves to be angels of the Lord and directed Lot to leave the city with his family before God nuked it (hence the pillar of salt).

It is a parable for the result of what happens when we do not show kindness and share our wealth with strangers. The story uses rape to make a point - is not about the type of loving same sex relationship we might have today - or the innate feelings that a person might have regarding their gender and sexuality.

I can highly recommend the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So" - it has some great segments w/interpretations of the Bible that you might not hear in other places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajBR0dq0XXk (http://www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/index2.htm)

Here are some clips - I could not get the time coding for youtube to work (to clip the end of a video) but it will at least start at what I feel are relevant points..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt37RfJFyEk#t=6m17s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkEXqEQ4xaY#t=3m06s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZUlTs4-PQY#t=1m18s

After all of this, I SHOULD also say that I know that there are many loving, compassionate Christians who do their best to live out their faith by living the principles that Jesus taught. I hope together we can build a bridge, because we NEED a bridge, more than we need two separate hurting groups of people (LGBT vs. not).
I'm inclined to agree w/u about the destruction of Sodom & Gomorrah according to a recent History Channel segment which suggested God was most angry because of how twin cities treated their poor.

[pepperjack]

think I saw that bridge this week-end in the eyes of one of the most beautiful toddlers I have ever seen! innocent, trusting , full of love; made me love God because of the beauty of HIS creation; what did Jesus say about the faith of a child?

[Hephaestion]

Parable or not, offering one's kids to 'rapists' is just not cricket.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Haven't kept track of mine -- seems like 5th -- in three different countries who celebrate it differently. Strange to be in the States on Ramadan, though.

Really? I like it much better here. There's no social pressure to fast here; quite the opposite. Only sincere intention carries you through. When a religion dominates a society, it breed hypocrisy and becomes dysfunctional. I came to dislike Ramadan in Egypt and only now am reconnecting with my faith.



Two words -- Ramadan Kareem!

Ramadan Mubarak!

[NotLostJustWandering]

I have never entirely ditched the possibility that a God exists but if he does, I very much doubt that he bears any resemblance to anything we can envisage.

That which speech does not illumine, but which illumines speech: know that alone to be the Brahman (the Supreme Being), not this which people worship here.

That which cannot be thought by mind, but by which, they say, mind is able to think: know that alone to be the Brahman, not this which people worship here.

That which is not seen by the eye, but by which the eye is able to see: know that alone to be the Brahman, not this which people worship here.

That which cannot be heard by the ear, but by which the ear is able to hear: know that alone to be Brahman, not this which people worship here.

--Kena Upanishad. Estimated to have been written c. 2500 BC.

45 centuries later, "the people here" still don't get it. No wonder so many turn to atheism.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Hephaestion, with respect to Sodom and Gomorrah -

My understanding of this culture and some other tribal cultures is that hospitality is everything. but like a lot of people in this day and age the people of Sodom did not want to share their wealth.

Lot was actually the only person in town who showed "hospitality" to this group of strangers. The other people in town didn't like that very much, the people in town wanted to rape the guests in Lot's house to humiliate them.

Supposedly it was a test from the Lord and as a result the strangers revealed themselves to be angels of the Lord and directed Lot to leave the city with his family before God nuked it (hence the pillar of salt).

It is a parable for the result of what happens when we do not show kindness and share our wealth with strangers. The story uses rape to make a point - is not about the type of loving same sex relationship we might have today - or the innate feelings that a person might have regarding their gender and sexuality.

Yes, exactly. I've always been struck by how matter-of-factly the men's desire to rape the guests is presented; there is no commentary on the homosexual nature of the desire (as there is in Lut's reaction in the Quranic telling of the story) and the reader is left to draw his own conclusions on what was immoral. Rape, violation of a man's dominion of his home, cruelty to wayfaring guests... that anyone would see homosexuality as the main offense here has always boggled my mind.

There's a lot of weird stuff in Genesis presented in as equally a matter-of-fact a way, such as Noah's daughters getting him drunk so he will have sex with them and get them pregnant. The writers of these texts didn't seem to see any need for adding moralizing commentary.

And yes, Lot's offer to cast out his daughters to the mob is very disturbing. It does show that children in that society were seen as their parents' possessions and not having rights of their own. Cf. Abraham's sacrifice of his son.


After all of this, I SHOULD also say that I know that there are many loving, compassionate Christians who do their best to live out their faith by living the principles that Jesus taught. I hope together we can build a bridge, because we NEED a bridge, more than we need two separate hurting groups of people (LGBT vs. not).

Very true. This anti-religion backlash in the LGBT community, and its attendant chiming in with Islamophobic bigotry, does not bode well at all.

[darkeyes]

Very true. This anti-religion backlash in the LGBT community, and its attendant chiming in with Islamophobic bigotry, does not bode well at all.

Personally, I dont see it as an anti religion backlash Atiq, but the beginning of the dawning of a truth that humankind should have learned a long time ago... I spend very little time debating religion, for in my world there are far greater things to consider and deal with than what I perceive as fairy stories. That may sound disrespectful but it is not meant to be... it is just my own personal view of God in all its forms. I do not ridicule the belief of others but will discuss it, I hope rationally should the need arise.

What is surprising is not that those of us who are lgbt are losing religion, bearing in mind the treatment of people like us by the various religions of the world, Islam included, what is suprising is that so many retain a belief in God... so many that retain a belief however, struggle with their original belief and search for something which will not impose upon them guilt and shame for what and who they are... others lose their belief altogether.. some like Sam become agnostic, even although she insists that she is not, and Kate, my partner who rationale tells God is an imossibility yet refuses to dismiss it out of hand. Some lose it altogether and a few, like me never had any belief in the first place.

To say that the "backlash" does not bode well at all is a little disengenuous. In this country many make a big thing about the fact that belief in God has diminished to such an extent that being a more Godless society than was once the case, we have brought upon ourselves so many of our own problems because of that lack of belief. I dismiss that as bollox, when I look round and see the intolerance all around me... intolerance in my own country against Catholic or Protestant , Jew or Sikh, Moslem or Buddhist. And the other forms of intolerance based on sexuality ethnicity, disability, place of birth and I do not mean nation here, but town or city or rural, Highlands or Lowlands, England or Scotland, accent or dialect... man or woman...

I also see around me great compassion and tolerance, people struggling with every day life and wanting to get along with each other... most people in my country and the state of which it is a part are like that, and do. If they did not the state would have long since imploded... but the intolerances which exist are often religious driven, if not by the word of God, but by the intolerances of history and of many of the present day followers of those religions and produces a great number of strains on our society which it could well do without. Even those who have lost religion to some degree continue with many of the prejudices of their personal history.

Whether we have or do not have religious belief does not make us good or bad. Having belief in God does not make us any more spiritual and pure than having none at all... what we believe shapes us but believing blindy without questioning and even doubting at times stunts our development as human beings. I may have no religion but I am as much a product of religious thought as any who is religious.... many of my attitudes and beliefs have come to me because of my little country's and my (father's) family's historical presbyterianism. Scotland and England, and Wales and Northern Ireland too for that matter, may be parts of the same state, but as nations in their own right within that state with very different histories, their peoples think very differently and have very different values. If I had been raised in Salford in Northern England where my mother comes from it is likely that I would have been raised with a very different set of values, both secular and religious, whether or not I was religious and so would be a very different person to the one I am today.... Whether I believed in God or not it I would not be the person I am today because of the very different historical and religious values of the people of Salford and England to those of the people of Edinburgh and Scotland.

What having no religion means to me is that I have been able to develop myself farther than ever I would had I been raised within a religious confine.. which is more or less what Sam said...

Religious doctrine plays a part in the way I live because much of what is doctrine is opposed to how I see the world and believe it should develop. This is no different from a Christian or Moslem having very different views on the same subject... I see religious doctrine as being an obstacle to human development not a spiritual or any other kind of aid.... I am not anti Islamic in the sense that I have no animosity towards Islam or moslems, nor am I anti christian in the sense that have none towards Christianity or Christians or indeed any other religion. That I have fundamental disagreements with each and all religious faiths goes without saying and as moslems and Christians and people of other faiths argue their corner, I argue mine and that is how it should be.

You and I diverge on a very important point... Whereas you seem to argue that there is an anti religious backlash in the lgbt which is detrimental to its development and progress, I see it as natural development of the human condition which can only benefit our kind, and humanity as a whole. For it begins the process of relieving humankind of superstition and prejudice which religious doctrine has for millenia divided us. It is time for humanity to have faith in itself not in some great omnipotent being whose existence is to say the least, questionable. In my view, our species will never achieve its full potential until that is achieved and achieved without belief in a God or Gods.

The anti Islamic chiming to which you refer has little to do with any backlash but to do with something quite different.. in part the state of our world and what has been going on over the last 20 years, and farther back throughout history. They both play their part as does the perception that Islam is anti lgbt... the attitudes and reactions of the Imams and Islamic states around the world play their own part in creating anti islamic feeling within the lgbt. That much of Christianity is every bit as anti lgbt is conveniently binned by many as they struggle to justify their inate anti Islamic prejudice. And as there is anti Islamic feeling not just within the lgbt, but within our societies at large, there is a similar anti Christian reaction within the Islamic world, for whatever reason, and that gives all of us concern.

I apologise for the length of this post, but such is the complexity of athiesm, religion and the subject to hand, anything we write in these forums will always be inadequte, but felt compelled to deliver a different point of view which may be rambling and it may not be to everyones taste, but it is heart felt and I think important.

[csrakate]

I have never entirely ditched the possibility that a God exists but if he does, I very much doubt that he bears any resemblance to anything we can envisage.

Please forgive me....but I simply MUST!!! I do believe we've been told that God looks like this! LOL!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100119202037/southpark/images/b/b7/God.png (http://southpark.wikia.com/index.php?title=God&image=God-png)

[sammie19]

Please forgive me....but I simply MUST!!! I do believe we've been told that God looks like this! LOL!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100119202037/southpark/images/b/b7/God.png (http://southpark.wikia.com/index.php?title=God&image=God-png)

lololol. but thats not God but Ms Godless on a bad day. :bigrin: unless they're ringers.:tong:

[jamieknyc]

The Book of Ezekiel states that Sodom and Amora (corrupted to 'Gomorroh' in later times) states that their sin was arrogance and unwillingness to share their wealth with the poor. The idea that they were punished for homosexuality is something made up by Christianity 2,000 years later.

[elian]

The local radio yesterday was heavily promoting a television special called "Curiosity: Did God create the universe?"

http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/space-exploration/did-god-create-universe-episode.htm

Well, I was surprised to see it on TV last night while I was rolling around the listings. I managed to catch the last few minutes of it. They seemed to postulate that God did NOT create the universe because at the beginning of the universe there was a black hole, where time does not exist, so therefore God couldn't have created the universe at the beginning of time because he had no time to do it in. (Did I get that right?)

I didn't like that theory at all, if you have an omnipotent God, why couldn't it transcend time and space?

Stephen Hawking and other atheists do have at least one thing I admire. To them, this one beautiful world is all we have. There is no "heaven" to escape to, no God to come down and save us so we had better learn to live with respect, make wise choices and make the most of what we have here on Earth. I don't think that's a bad philosophy to live by either, it just so happens that I like the story with the tiger in it a lot more than I like the story without the tiger.

[love1234]

ex christian..... I tried to do the * right thing * and follow god but I got to the point where I said, its not in my nature to decide whom is worthy and whom is not..... specially when I am human just like the rest of the world..... and that god is welcome to judge us....

what makes me laugh is that the old testament is used to slam gays etc.... yet the new testament was when jesus died on the cross for our sins, and all the old ways no longer applied.... it was now between us and god, not us and man..... and yet religious people still refer to the * old laws * and judge people
Jesus changed very litte of Gods Law. Only pertaining to animal sacrifice, the priesthood and churches.

"Jesus came to abolish the priesthood except for himself alone as the sole representative of the priesthood, being both High-Priest and King, after the order of Melchizedek.
He told his followers including the apostles and it is written in the Gospel of Matthew, that they must not be priests (rabbi) and must not be called father:-"

23:8 But be not ye called priest (etc.): for One is your Teacher, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren.
23:9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.

Jesus told his TRUE followers, and it is written, again in Matthew, that they must NOT go to church and must NOT pray in church or in public, as the hypocrites DO.

6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. (They wanted to be seen by men and they have been).
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private (telepathically); and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. (Because He will answer you because you obeyed His instructions about how to do it, and when He does you will be so amazed that everyone will notice the change in you).

Therefore the parts of The Old Covenant that relate to the priesthood, churches and the animal sacrifices, for redemption from sin, are now OBSOLETE.



Jesus "I am The WAY, The Truth and The Life". "The Way" is Gods Law. Jesus was Gods Law in action.

Jesus in Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven.
5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the lawyers and politicians (who were also priests because the church and the state were one at that time), ye shall in NO case enter into the Kingdom of heaven.

Jesus in John
13:34 A new COMMANDment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
13:35 By THIS shall all [men] KNOW that ye are my disciples, IF ye have love one to another.
14:15 If ye love me, KEEP my COMMANDments.
14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
14:17 [Even] the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.




"Therefore the death penalty for certain crimes (including idolatry) still stands today along with the rest of The Law as a deterrent to the committing of those crimes. If the deterrent is removed then those crimes will automatically be committed, and increase, along with a breakdown of order, leading to even more crime.

Before you are tempted to quote the Gospel of John chapter 8 and The Adulterous Woman story, for an excuse, I must point out that this story did not appear in the original New Testament and was added a long time later by powerful people who wanted to get away with committing adultery.
If it had happened then it could not have been as it is written because Jesus came to uphold The Law not to break it, as he stated clearly. In this story Jesus is reported to have said, "Go and sin no more" not "everybody go out and do it", as has happened precisely because of The Adulterous Woman story.

It could only have been a permissible act of compassion because the woman was truly repentant and because her husband begged for her to be spared and did not want to press charges against her, otherwise Jesus could not have pardoned her. There can be absolutely NO remission of sins without true and complete repentance.

The millions of mischievous people who misquote the letters of Paul and say that The Law itself was abolished, and that everyone can therefore break The Law with impunity, just as long as they say the words "I believe that Jesus is the Son of God", will burn, exactly as God says, for their crimes of misleading people and calling Jesus a liar, along with the millions who were misled from The Way, by them, because they chose to believe not the Truth" J.A.Hill (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Jesus said, "He that is not with (and fighting for) me, is (automatically) AGAINST me."

[Long Duck Dong]

and so you quote the bible ????

the basis of christianity is a belief in christ, not a book.... yet you like so many, quote a book....

a church during and after christ is deemed to be a gathering of two or more people in the name of christ, not a building..... hence his followers gathered around him, not in temples and other buildings....

jesus preached, not from books, but from the heart, as that is where the truth of mankind resides, and that is why mankind will be judged not according to his deeds, but the truth of his heart.....

christians know that christ alone has the power to forgive their sins.... as jesus knows how a man can sin and fall.... and so knows what is to be forgiven......

a person v's a bible.......

its why so many people get christianity wrong and confused....... the light of your path is not seen in the words of your mouth, nor the words of a book, but by the way a person leads their life according to their love and trust in jesus...... and that is why the old testament no longer applies..... and the new testament is a guideline for living.....

[freezeplay]

I'm LDS, I was verbally and mentally abused by my dad. I'm not sure if the abuse was or why i'm bisexual. It is so hard to try and be religious when so many preach against same sex relationships

[NotLostJustWandering]

and so you quote the bible ????

the basis of christianity is a belief in christ, not a book.... yet you like so many, quote a book....

a church during and after christ is deemed to be a gathering of two or more people in the name of christ, not a building..... hence his followers gathered around him, not in temples and other buildings....

jesus preached, not from books, but from the heart, as that is where the truth of mankind resides, and that is why mankind will be judged not according to his deeds, but the truth of his heart.....

christians know that christ alone has the power to forgive their sins.... as jesus knows how a man can sin and fall.... and so knows what is to be forgiven......

a person v's a bible.......

its why so many people get christianity wrong and confused....... the light of your path is not seen in the words of your mouth, nor the words of a book, but by the way a person leads their life according to their love and trust in jesus...... and that is why the old testament no longer applies..... and the new testament is a guideline for living.....

Good points, except that your understanding and knowledge of Christ itself derives, directly or indirectly, from the Bible.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I didn't like that theory at all, if you have an omnipotent God, why couldn't it transcend time and space?

God's abode is in eternity, not time.

To paraphrase Meister Ekhardt, time is the biggest obstacle to the seeker's consciousness of God.

[sammie19]

Good points, except that your understanding and knowledge of Christ itself derives, directly or indirectly, from the Bible.

Is it not a fact, that the only testament to the life of Christ is that which we have recorded in the new testament? That there is no concrete evidence of him ever having existed except the written testament of disciples who claimed to have been his friends and followers and written decades after his death, and one who claimed to have had a vision of Christ resurrected? We can count in that testament the Gnostic Gospels, but they are very questionable evidence to the existence of Christ the man as are the Gospels which are used to today.

There is no Roman record of Christ from the time he was supposed to have been alive, nor is there any contemporary Hebrew record.

Belief in Christ is a matter of faith, not of known fact, for there are no facts we know. What is claimed as fact is a matter of belief and faith.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Is it not a fact, that the only testament to the life of Christ is that which we have recorded in the new testament? That there is no concrete evidence of him ever having existed except the written testament of disciples who claimed to have been his friends and followers and written decades after his death, and one who claimed to have had a vision of Christ resurrected? We can count in that testament the Gnostic Gospels, but they are very questionable evidence to the existence of Christ the man as are the Gospels which are used to today.

There is no Roman record of Christ from the time he was supposed to have been alive, nor is there any contemporary Hebrew record.

Belief in Christ is a matter of faith, not of known fact, for there are no facts we know. What is claimed as fact is a matter of belief and faith.

What kind of official record do you expect to have been made of his existence while he was alive? He was one of many wandering religious visionaries, with only a handful of followers.

I think the Gospels' record of his sayings are sufficient evidence of his existence. They are among the most profound truths ever put in writing. No hack mythmaker could have made them up.

Homer's existence has been disputed, too, but somebody clearly wrote the Illiad.

[void()]

Atheist here. Off to do other stuff, run it slow.

[Jobelorocks]

Is it not a fact, that the only testament to the life of Christ is that which we have recorded in the new testament? That there is no concrete evidence of him ever having existed except the written testament of disciples who claimed to have been his friends and followers and written decades after his death, and one who claimed to have had a vision of Christ resurrected? We can count in that testament the Gnostic Gospels, but they are very questionable evidence to the existence of Christ the man as are the Gospels which are used to today.

There is no Roman record of Christ from the time he was supposed to have been alive, nor is there any contemporary Hebrew record.

Belief in Christ is a matter of faith, not of known fact, for there are no facts we know. What is claimed as fact is a matter of belief and faith.


What kind of official record do you expect to have been made of his existence while he was alive? He was one of many wandering religious visionaries, with only a handful of followers.

I think the Gospels' record of his sayings are sufficient evidence of his existence. They are among the most profound truths ever put in writing. No hack mythmaker could have made them up.

Homer's existence has been disputed, too, but somebody clearly wrote the Illiad.

Plenty of the days historians wrote about Jesus. So there is no question of whether he existed. Josephus Flavius is the most famous one... I can't think of others at the moment.There is just a question of what he did and who he was.

[wrbi01]

Just yesterday I was preched at by a friend and while I have my own belief system I dont talk about it much because I have always gone by the saying that religion is alot like a large penis, No one likes it when you whip it out and shove it down your throat. I say live and let live. I have my opinions and dont force them on anyone else.

[Jobelorocks]

Just yesterday I was preched at by a friend and while I have my own belief system I dont talk about it much because I have always gone by the saying that religion is alot like a large penis, No one likes it when you whip it out and shove it down your throat. I say live and let live. I have my opinions and dont force them on anyone else.

Agreed... I think to you have to earn the right to share your religious beliefs with someone... You have to have some sort of mutual trust and be able to explain your beliefs without pushing them.

[jamieknyc]

Plenty of the days historians wrote about Jesus. So there is no question of whether he existed. Josephus Flavius is the most famous one... I can't think of others at the moment.There is just a question of what he did and who he was.

The earliest non-Christian reference to Jesus is in Tacitus, who wrote about seventy years after the events.

[Jobelorocks]

The earliest non-Christian reference to Jesus is in Tacitus, who wrote about seventy years after the events.

Even if that is so I think that there is no question among most historians today or in the past that Jesus did exist. The question is who he was and what he did. Plus Thallus wrote about him in 52.

[jamieknyc]

Even if that is so I think that there is no question among most historians today or in the past that Jesus did exist. The question is who he was and what he did. Plus Thallus wrote about him in 52.

I agree with you because those non-Christian sources, who were not quite in living memory of the events but not too long after, treat him as being a real person.

[Jobelorocks]

I agree with you because those non-Christian sources, who were not quite in living memory of the events but not too long after, treat him as being a real person.

Honestly it is silly to think Jesus did not exist, but we can still question who he was and what he did.

[csrakate]

I have always gone by the saying that religion is alot like a large penis, No one likes it when you whip it out and shove it down your throat.

I'm sure there are some folks out there who wouldn't mind that "shoving" too terribly much! LOL!

[Realist]

Just got this this morning..........

The light turned yellow, just in front of the driver. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.

The tailgating fellow was furious and honked his horn, screaming in frustration, as he missed his chance to get through the intersection, dropping his half-eaten hamburger in his lap!

As he was still in mid-rant, he heard a tap on his window and looked up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered him to exit the car with his hands up...

He took the belligerent driver to the police station where he was searched, fingerprinted, photographed, and placed in a holding cell.

After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. He was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting officer was waiting with his personal effects.

He said, ''I'm very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing a blue streak.

I noticed the 'What would Jesus do?' bumper sticker, the 'Choose Life!' license plate holder, the 'Follow Me to Sunday-School!' bumper sticker, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk, so naturally....I assumed you had stolen the car!!''

[sammie19]

What kind of official record do you expect to have been made of his existence while he was alive? He was one of many wandering religious visionaries, with only a handful of followers.

I think the Gospels' record of his sayings are sufficient evidence of his existence. They are among the most profound truths ever put in writing. No hack mythmaker could have made them up.

Homer's existence has been disputed, too, but somebody clearly wrote the Illiad.

I am not doubting that Jesus existed. I haven't said that he didn't exist. I am saying that there is no contemporary evidence of it save that of a few disciples, if it was actually them that wrote the books we refer to as the new testament. We dont know and can never know. But I do believe he did exist but doubt he was who those men or whoever wrote the Gospels say he was.

I do not argue either that what they had to say was profound. But mythmakers can be profound. Not all mythmakers are "hacks". Mallory was no hack, nor was Homer, if it was Homer. Both wrote long after the events they made myth of. The stories upon which they based their myths had been around for centuries and they articulated and developed them to suit the time and for reasons of their own.

I don't know the true story of the life of Jesus any more than anyone else alive today. We know what we know from the word and writings of a few old men who claimed to have been disciples and friends of Christ. I don't doubt that claim actually, but as with the mythmakers who were not involved in events such as Homer and Mallory, time clouds the memory, or to be more cynical, for purposes of their own, they rewrote a story of in a more fictionalised and mystical manner.

We do know that the Gnostic gospels were discarded by the church and in those gospels were different versions of the life of Christ we know today. Not all said he was the son of God. At the behest of a Roman Emperor and the church of the day, the gospels we know now are the accepted version of his life, death and resurrection.

So what Christianity practices is a man selected version of by then ancient man written gospels of the life and divinity of a man. Profound certainly, but questionable with regard to their honesty, integrity and authenticity. Marx was profound, but his social, political an economic philosophies were very questionable. Whatever else Marx was, he was no hack.

I was raised in the church, although I never believed very strongly. I know and love people who believe very deeply in the story of Christ and in the divinity of Jesus and in his story. I respect their faith, opinions and beliefs, but everything tells me that what they believe is based on falsehood. It is truth to them, and that is what is important, but it is a truth I cannot and do not share.

[rutemptedalso]

I read some stuff about the Dead Sea Scrolls awhile back that told how the Bible was translated from them into Hebrew. The scrolls were made up by several different tribes that spoke different languages. I guess a lot of the information in the scrolls were left out. Including complete books one of which was written by a woman.

It said that the scrolls were ordered a king to be translated so that they would be easier to teach. I think it was king David but I'm not totally sure. I'm guessing that means it would be easier to persuade people to believe in it or make it easier to control their thoughts. I can't imagine a government wanting to do that though. Just pass the offering plate! LOL

[Trinity-Fl]

So, what does this fantasy of Heaven, Hell and God and all that other malarky have to do with your sex life?

If there is a god (which is highly suspect) why do you think he let the church drown, draw and quarter and roast innocent people in the name of Christianity.

Never mind. Your answers would just upset me.

[Jobelorocks]

So, what does this fantasy of Heaven, Hell and God and all that other malarky have to do with your sex life?

If there is a god (which is highly suspect) why do you think he let the church drown, draw and quarter and roast innocent people in the name of Christianity.

Never mind. Your answers would just upset me.

It is a little thing called free will. There are evil people in every group. People kill in the name of many things, religion, country, political ideals, ect...

[slipnslide]

I'm not even going to read the horse shit here but I can clear it all up for you succinctly: there is no deity, stop being childish and believing in fairytales.

You're welcome.

[Long Duck Dong]

Good points, except that your understanding and knowledge of Christ itself derives, directly or indirectly, from the Bible.

my knowledge of the one called christ, comes from within.... in the same way that a bisexual becomes fully aware of their bisexuality, thru self discovery, not visiting bisexual.com......

religion is the one that walks hand in hand with the bible, a christian walks hand in hand with christ

[pepperjack]

I'm not even going to read the horse shit here but I can clear it all up for you succinctly: there is no deity, stop being childish and believing in fairytales.

You're welcome.

" The fool says in his heart, there is no God." why r u here if ur not reading it? Today's world makes it easy to disbelieve; there's obviously been a strong interest in this topic.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'm not even going to read the horse shit here but I can clear it all up for you succinctly: there is no deity, stop being childish and believing in fairytales.

You're welcome.

Religious tolerance tells me to respect your belief about the existance or non-existance of diety. And I do.

I would ask that you be tolerant of others without resorting to accusing them of childishness and attacking their faith.

YOU'RE Welcome,
Pasa

[pepperjack]

Religious tolerance tells me to respect your belief about the existance or non-existance of diety. And I do.

I would ask that you be tolerant of others without resorting to accusing them of childishness and attacking their faith.

YOU'RE Welcome,
Pasa

Amen!

[pepperjack]

Amen!

which means" so be it"

[Doggiestyle]

Now this may be a bit off topic about religion or certain types of religious people, but for a different point of view on God and what (he?) is, where he came from, how he came about, and the general story about today's modern forms of religion. You need to watch movie produced by the Zeitgeist Movement. This flick will start off kinda slow and maybe even boring, but stick with it anyway and it will captivate you. You will not be able to stop until the end, I promise. I think it is very worthwhile movie. Also see the "addendum" afterwords. The "Moving Forward" movie is a little boring and impractical, considering the way that people are, even though a good idea. There is just to much diversification with people for this idea to ever work. I am referring to their "Venus Project". If you look into the "Zeitgeist Movement, Venus Project" you will understand that it's an attempt to bring about a one world govt and organize a one world system. In other words a bunch of bullshit. Whatever, don't join in on this movement thing of theirs.

I am sure that a lot of you folks have seen this movie, after all it is a old flick and has been out for a while, and if so, then you know what I mean. But if you haven't seen this movie (and the "addendum movie") then you need to watch it. I can assure you that it will captivate and make you think.


The movie http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Your friend,,, :doggie:

Watch the movie first, then the addendum. OK?

[slipnslide]

Religious tolerance tells me to respect your belief about the existance or non-existance of diety. And I do.

I would ask that you be tolerant of others without resorting to accusing them of childishness and attacking their faith.

YOU'RE Welcome,
Pasa

edit: <actually I change my mind, I was taught long ago to not argue reason with religious people>

[Pasadenacpl2]

Oh...you are a Dawkins fan. I keep running into y'all. I find one on just about every site. I have a name for y'all: Evangelical Atheists. And I'll tell you what I've told every one of yoyr brethren. You can be an Atheist without being a douchebag. Well, it is possible. Whether you personally are capable of it is yet to be seen.

BTW it would be nice if y'all got a new playbook. The next 15 or so posts from you will be inordinately predictable and follow a preset script. More predictable than the first ten minutes of a JW ministering in your livingroom.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

If by "Dawkins fan" you mean someone who puts fact over fiction. You nailed it!

[slipnslide]

The movie http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Your friend,,, :doggie:

Watch the movie first, then the addendum. OK?

I don't think I've seen this - it's almost done downloading. I'll check it out tonight.

[pepperjack]

If by "Dawkins fan" you mean someone who puts fact over fiction. You nailed it!

Dawkins is like Obama; hot air pseudo-intellectual; some people "talk the talk, some people walk....."

[Pasadenacpl2]

If by "Dawkins fan" you mean someone who puts fact over fiction. You nailed it!

I don't think you can ascertain the "facts" Dawkins claims. One cannot prove, nor disprove, the existence of God. The closest scientific statement that can be made is that there is no proof that God exists. That is far different from saying that He does not exist. The first statement is a scientific one. You, however, are making a statement about the existence of divinity eg. a religious statement, and not a scientific one.

Scientists who hold true to the Scientific Method don't respect Dawkins anymore than they respect Evangelicals who use the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Now you two are just rambling on spewing horse shit and embarrassing yourselves - but I'm enjoying - so please continue.

It's fun to watch religious people scrambling.

Plus, I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to believe that you've read a single work by Richard Dawkins - so maybe stick to the shit you know. Like those little bible stories that they tell children. They're wholesome and delightful!

"Scientists who hold true to the Scientific Method don't respect Dawkins anymore than they respect Evangelicals who use the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true." - trust me, if I got a room full of scientists together THEY WOULD LAUGH YOU THE FUCK OUT OF THE ROOM

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'm putting out the challenge to Slipnslide. I'm betting that he cannot present proof of God's non-existence, and that he cannot present his argument without resorting to personal attacks on people of faith.

The gauntlet has been thrown down.

Pasa

[slipnslide]

Don't the philosophers call what you asked an "appeal to ignorance"? i.e., something must be true if you can't prove it's false. Human beings MADE UP A STORY to satiate their discomfort with the things they couldn't understand (and to impose law). You might as well ask me to prove that any fictional character from history isn't real.

I take great joy in the demise of religion in Canada. From coast to coast, congregations are merging due to dwindling numbers, churches are being sold, demolished and replaced by condos, all because people just know better now. A couple generations from now and religion will be a weird thing practiced by a small minority in this country.

I actually have clergy in my family - but the secret we keep - it's just a job. He doesn't even believe the stuff but knows that it's his job to sell it - like you're selling a used car. Of course none of us would ever reveal that in real life.

[Pasadenacpl2]

What you describe is, indeed, an appeal to ignorance. It is not, however, what I said. I did not say that because you cannot disprove God he must exist.

Scientific statement: God has not been proved to exist. He has not been proven to not exist. I can make no definitive statement on the existence of God.

Dawkins (and your) statement is: God does not exist. That's a much different statement, and is not scientific.

Pasa

[NotLostJustWandering]

I am not doubting that Jesus existed. I haven't said that he didn't exist. I am saying that there is no contemporary evidence of it save that of a few disciples, if it was actually them that wrote the books we refer to as the new testament. We dont know and can never know. But I do believe he did exist but doubt he was who those men or whoever wrote the Gospels say he was.

I do not argue either that what they had to say was profound. But mythmakers can be profound. Not all mythmakers are "hacks". Mallory was no hack, nor was Homer, if it was Homer. Both wrote long after the events they made myth of. The stories upon which they based their myths had been around for centuries and they articulated and developed them to suit the time and for reasons of their own.

I don't know the true story of the life of Jesus any more than anyone else alive today. We know what we know from the word and writings of a few old men who claimed to have been disciples and friends of Christ. I don't doubt that claim actually, but as with the mythmakers who were not involved in events such as Homer and Mallory, time clouds the memory, or to be more cynical, for purposes of their own, they rewrote a story of in a more fictionalised and mystical manner.

Let me clarify by making a strong distinction between what the Gospels say about Jesus in their narratives, and what they quote Jesus as saying in his teachings. Comparing the four books, two things are striking: how they differ in the former, and how they agree in the latter. The similarities are at times verbatim, which has led scholars to believe that the writers of Matthew and Luke worked from two common written sources: the Gospel of Mark, and a lost compilation of Jesus's sayings, which they dub "Q". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source

As for the differences in narrative, there certainly was a lot of mythmaking, and here, as you point out, much older sources were used, ancient stories of virgin birth, resurrection and so forth. The "Zeitgeist" movie's attack on religion, which Doggiestyle recommends, is mostly concerned with these myths and their retelling in the Christian story of Jesus. It's interesting stuff, though it hardly supports the film's attack on religion in general. The film ignores the wisdom of Jesus, which interests me personally far more than the mythology that quickly sprung up around this prophet.


We do know that the Gnostic gospels were discarded by the church and in those gospels were different versions of the life of Christ we know today. Not all said he was the son of God. At the behest of a Roman Emperor and the church of the day, the gospels we know now are the accepted version of his life, death and resurrection.


I highly recommend the Gospel of Thomas, a gospel cherished by the early Gnostics, suppressed by the Christian church, and recently rediscovered. Like "Q", it consists entirely (save for the introductory line) of sayings of Jesus. No narrative, no mythology. No virgin birth, no resurrection, just wisdom. Very mystical, at times as inscrutable as Zen koans. There is controversy about its authenticity, but abundant evidence that it is in fact older than the four canonical gospels.

The Wikipedia article on Thomas is a good read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas and you can read the Gospel (it's quite short) here: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm

[darkeyes]

I'm not even going to read the horse shit here but I can clear it all up for you succinctly: there is no deity, stop being childish and believing in fairytales.

You're welcome.

The one thing u can never do.. tell peeps not to believe something as personal and as deeply ingrained into their persona as their religion.. or non religion.. u can debate it rationally, thats fine, but telling peeps what is and is not is a waste of breath... I too think they are fairy tales.. and tell peeps so.. but it is counterproductive and disrespectful to tell folk to stop believing. Espesh bout something we can prove neither one way or t'other..

I debate religion cos Im interested... and luff peeps trying to convert me as they have done many times without success... when a kid was booted out of religious education classes for being disruptive moren once cos I debated too hard, my questions became long winded diatribes of conviction (not much changed there then huh?? tee hee) and prob showed insufficient respect for the sensitivities and beliefs of others.. I've done the poke folk and tell them their religion is crap.. u know wot? It just doesn't work...

I don't want to tell peeps they are talking bollox when it comes to their religion.. tho what I say amounts to that, but not straight out by saying they are talking bollox... all I want to do is what I have always done about this and other things... get folk to put their brains into gear and begin to look at things more deeply and less one dimensionally. To see there is another side.. sure 'bout religion I am pretty dogmatic and absolute.. no one is gonna change me mind 'bout the existence of some great all powerful being up in the sky or anywhere else.. maybe if He/She/It comes down from on high, taps me on the shoulder and invites me for a guided tour of upstairs an shows me a lil bit of evidence that He?she/It is what He/She/it says He/She/It is, but what chances of that???..but by discussing and debating peoples innermost beliefs, I hope to get a better understanding of where they are at, and who they are and with luck, maybe for them to understand me a bit better..

... by standing your ground and telling people that the thing which to many is the most important core belief is bollox, you create friction and potential strife.. we see it the world over where people, states, instututions and systems are so blindly dogmatic and aggressive, and so contemptous of the other view that we have war, strife and the most awful intolerance, destruction and death.

You do not tell anyone something is so just because it is or you think it is... therein lies so many of our world's problems...

[elian]

So, what does this fantasy of Heaven, Hell and God and all that other malarky have to do with your sex life?

If there is a god (which is highly suspect) why do you think he let the church drown, draw and quarter and roast innocent people in the name of Christianity.

Never mind. Your answers would just upset me.

This story on the radio was an interesting take on one rabbi's interpretation of why God does not intervene: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124582959

One can be faithful and have faith, even atheists have faith - but faith is not a substitute for rational reasoning and personal responsibility..people sometimes forget that.

We are capable of both tremendous good and wicked malevolence. I have a saying - the Bible might be the word of God, but it was written by the hand of man, and well, we all know what the hand of man can do.

Whether there is a God or not doesn't seem to affect the ability of human beings to reason themselves into a massacre. We have free will, so to a certain degree we can do what we desire..at least until a lynch mob comes ambling up the hill with some pitchforks and torches.

At times I have been both jealous of Christians (because of what I thought of as the simplicity of their faith vs. my always having to seek things out) and angry with the Church, as an institution because of the history of mistreatment.

I am angry with the institutions (and not just the church but also maybe a few other institutions as well), but not the individual people. To label individual people as "wrong" because of the actions of a group is wrong, as evidenced by discrimination against LGBT people.

The Catholic Church has now publicly acknowledged to some degree that it has done things that were wrong and hurtful to the greater good and it has tried to apologize for some of it. The UCC minister that led the pridefest interfaith service I attended ALSO acknowledged that the Christian religion has been responsible for injuring LGBT people.

To some degree we must allow people the physical, spiritual and emotional freedom to learn and grow on their own - in the best way they know how. All I can tell you is that in order to move forward forgiveness is soo important, as is learning not to use faith as a substitute for personal responsibility. It's OK to be angry, but if we STAY angry - permanently - that does more harm than good.

Regardless of what you believe, using logic you could easily tear another person's personal belief to shreds, that's not the point - the point in having religious discussions is NOT to degrade and humiliate your adversary, but simply to have your viewpoint be heard by the other and hopefully both be wiser for the experience.

[Jobelorocks]

I'm not even going to read the horse shit here but I can clear it all up for you succinctly: there is no deity, stop being childish and believing in fairytales.

You're welcome.


So, what does this fantasy of Heaven, Hell and God and all that other malarky have to do with your sex life?

If there is a god (which is highly suspect) why do you think he let the church drown, draw and quarter and roast innocent people in the name of Christianity.

Never mind. Your answers would just upset me.


edit: <actually I change my mind, I was taught long ago to not argue reason with religious people>


If by "Dawkins fan" you mean someone who puts fact over fiction. You nailed it!


Now you two are just rambling on spewing horse shit and embarrassing yourselves - but I'm enjoying - so please continue.

It's fun to watch religious people scrambling.

Plus, I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to believe that you've read a single work by Richard Dawkins - so maybe stick to the shit you know. Like those little bible stories that they tell children. They're wholesome and delightful!

"Scientists who hold true to the Scientific Method don't respect Dawkins anymore than they respect Evangelicals who use the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true." - trust me, if I got a room full of scientists together THEY WOULD LAUGH YOU THE FUCK OUT OF THE ROOM


Don't the philosophers call what you asked an "appeal to ignorance"? i.e., something must be true if you can't prove it's false. Human beings MADE UP A STORY to satiate their discomfort with the things they couldn't understand (and to impose law). You might as well ask me to prove that any fictional character from history isn't real.

I take great joy in the demise of religion in Canada. From coast to coast, congregations are merging due to dwindling numbers, churches are being sold, demolished and replaced by condos, all because people just know better now. A couple generations from now and religion will be a weird thing practiced by a small minority in this country.

I actually have clergy in my family - but the secret we keep - it's just a job. He doesn't even believe the stuff but knows that it's his job to sell it - like you're selling a used car. Of course none of us would ever reveal that in real life.
You know you have your right not to believe, but we have a right to believe. How do you expect people to ever respect or listen to you if you just hurl insults at people? Why do you even care if people believe in God? Why should it be a big deal to you? It doesn't affect you, so stop wasting your time insulting people for no reason.

[sammie19]

I think Elian and Fran are saying much the same thing from different ends of the spectrum. Discuss, listen and learn with respect and try and understand where people are coming from.

I have heard Fran's line on religion a million times and have always been influenced by it but never completely won over. Much of what I say comes from her because it makes sense to me. Where I don't care whether there is a God or not, she does quite passionately, because she hates being wrong.

I don't know whether God exists or not. My common sense and logic tell me he doesn't, but I can't quite grasp the concept of there being an end and beginning to time either. There can be no definitive confirming answer to God. Only belief, which in common with Fran, I don't have, but nor do I have her certainty. I can neither grasp the concept of certainty in those who, like my mother, believe or who, like Fran, do not.

I do not understand certainty when we cannot possibly be certain.

[Jobelorocks]

I think Elian and Fran are saying much the same thing from different ends of the spectrum. Discuss, listen and learn with respect and try and understand where people are coming from.

I have heard Fran's line on religion a million times and have always been influenced by it but never completely won over. Much of what I say comes from her because it makes sense to me. Where I don't care whether there is a God or not, she does quite passionately, because she hates being wrong.

I don't know whether God exists or not. My common sense and logic tell me he doesn't, but I can't quite grasp the concept of there being an end and beginning to time either. There can be no definitive confirming answer to God. Only belief, which in common with Fran, I don't have, but nor do I have her certainty. I can neither grasp the concept of certainty in those who, like my mother, believe or who, like Fran, do not.

I do not understand certainty when we cannot possibly be certain.

See guys this is a way to display your beliefs, if you expect anyone to care about what you have to say , you should be respectful to them.

[pepperjack]

Now you two are just rambling on spewing horse shit and embarrassing yourselves - but I'm enjoying - so please continue.

It's fun to watch religious people scrambling.

Plus, I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to believe that you've read a single work by Richard Dawkins - so maybe stick to the shit you know. Like those little bible stories that they tell children. They're wholesome and delightful!

"Scientists who hold true to the Scientific Method don't respect Dawkins anymore than they respect Evangelicals who use the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true." - trust me, if I got a room full of scientists together THEY WOULD LAUGH YOU THE FUCK OUT OF THE ROOM

exactly what I meant; Dawkins' peers don't respect him because of his flip-flopping inconsistencies.

[12voltman59]

The problem with being a hard core Atheist, is the same one as being absolutely certain there is God and such----logically and rationally---neither one of those positons can be proven to any degree of absolute certainty.

The most reasonable position for a truly thinking person to hold is to be agnostic---and admit this--"I may BELIEVE in god or I may not--but I cannot prove either position absolutely. I simply do not know if there is god or not and no one else does either. No human being has ever proven this either way absolutely and probably never will."

I think we might one day be able to crack physics and come up with a way to travel through space and time like in science fiction--but I doubt that we will ever definitively prove or disprove the existence of "God" whatever the true nature of God is--because I don't think we are meant to. That is the ultimate mystery.

I do put myself firmly down in the camp that I do think that there is "god"--even though I think that the true nature of whatever god really is, is very much different from that taught by the Abramic religions---I don't think that "god" is this judgmental man figure sitting up on his big throne smiting and such all the time and I don't think that "god" is separate from us---I am more of the mind that we are "manifestations" of god and contain a part of that "god" and that what we don't really know is the true nature of what we are because we so think that our physical human aspect is our end all and be all when that is but only a fraction of what we really are.

It could be that when our "universe" came into being----it developed some sort of sentience that permeates all things--there is one strain of belief that thinks this is so ---but once again--it is merely conjecture and is again---pretty much unprovable--at least "on the physical realm." We probably will only come to know what is "real" once we have left this life and we do go on to something else----to me--I just cannot believe that all we are is simply a walking glob of biological material that somehow becomes a basic form of "sentient life" for a time, lives its puny little life then dies---to me---if that is all we are--then what the hell is the point of our lives and our seemingly ingrained desire to learn more about what is around us???

[slipnslide]

You know you have your right not to believe, but we have a right to believe. How do you expect people to ever respect or listen to you if you just hurl insults at people? Why do you even care if people believe in God? Why should it be a big deal to you? It doesn't affect you, so stop wasting your time insulting people for no reason.

Because I want people to break free and think for themselves.

[slipnslide]

To those who will only send me private messages calling me the voice of reason, thank you. I do understand why you don't want to get caught up with these maniacs.

[Jobelorocks]

Because I want people to break free and think for themselves.

I do think for myself and I have chosen to believe in God. Eveyone is different and just because they come up with different conclusions, it does not mean that they do not think for themselves. I for one was raised in a very anti-Catholic group. When I decided that I believed in Catholicism (well for the most part) then I was excommunicated from my own group and some family members had a large role in that. I decided to think for myself and decide what I believe.

[Pasadenacpl2]

To those who will only send me private messages calling me the voice of reason, thank you. I do understand why you don't want to get caught up with these maniacs.

Considering the quality of your private messages, I sincerely doubt anyone is thanking you or calling you the voice of reason.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

I do think for myself and I have chosen to believe in God. Eveyone is different and just because they come up with different conclusions, it does not mean that they do not think for themselves.

No, no. You've been deluded since you were a child. You are incapable of free thought until you agree with Dawkins. You should read the God Delusion to see this for yourself. :rolleyes:

Pasa

[Jobelorocks]

No, no. You've been deluded since you were a child. You are incapable of free thought until you agree with Dawkins. You should read the God Delusion to see this for yourself.

Pasa

lol... I think it is funny that people tell me I don't think for myself because I disagree. Well, because I think for myself I will not let what you say change what I have come to believe on my own.

[jamieknyc]

lol... I think it is funny that people tell me I don't think for myself because I disagree. Well, because I think for myself I will not let what you say change what I have come to believe on my own.

Some atheists are decent human beings, and respect other people's right to their opinion on something over which reasonable men may differ. Unfortunately, a lot of atheists are intolerant bigots.

[Jobelorocks]

Some atheists are decent human beings, and respect other people's right to their opinion on something over which reasonable men may differ. Unfortunately, a lot of atheists are intolerant bigots.

I have met plenty of atheists, theists, and agnostics who are very respectful of others beliefs and plenty who aren't. Both kinds of people are present in every sort of group. That is why I try not to lump anyone up and judge them by their belief system. It is best not to make assumptions about people.

[slipnslide]

Fuck you people are easy to troll. Look how easy it was to get you all fired up and spinning in circles. LOL.

Somehow you even managed to drag Richard Dawkins into it!

[Jobelorocks]

Fuck you people are easy to troll. Look how easy it was to get you all fired up and spinning in circles. LOL.

Somehow you even managed to drag Richard Dawkins into it!

And us just mentioning our religious beliefs got you all pissed off at us. How are we spinning in circles? You are getting all fired up about something that affects you in no way. The fact you keep on making comments also shows that you care what we believe and think, otherwise you would just ignore us. So again, I think that you are being affected what others around you think.

[jamieknyc]

Fuck you people are easy to troll. Look how easy it was to get you all fired up and spinning in circles. LOL.

Somehow you even managed to drag Richard Dawkins into it!

On the contrary, you just proved yourself to be an intolerant bigot.

[slipnslide]

On the contrary, you just proved yourself to be an intolerant bigot.

Ohhhh, ouch, that one really stings.

:rolleyes:

[slipnslide]

And us just mentioning our religious beliefs got you all pissed off at us. How are we spinning in circles? You are getting all fired up about something that affects you in no way. The fact you keep on making comments also shows that you care what we believe and think, otherwise you would just ignore us. So again, I think that you are being affected what others around you think.

Because I'm saying whatever I think will get you all fired up and time after time it works.

I guess that's why congregations are referred at as a "flock".

[Jobelorocks]

Because I'm saying whatever I think will get you all fired up and time after time it works.

I guess that's why congregations are referred at as a "flock".

Why do you care about getting us fired up? What does it matter? If we are such ignorant folk, why waste your time? Unless you have no life and nothing better to do than to try to anger us lowly theists.

[slipnslide]

Why do you care about getting us fired up? What does it matter? If we are such ignorant folk, why waste your time? Unless you have no life and nothing better to do than to try to anger us lowly theists.

Two reasons:

(1) Every great story needs a villain
(2) It's funny

[Jobelorocks]

Two reasons:

(1) Every great story needs a villain
(2) It's funny

Wow... your maturity astounds me. It reminds me of Jr. High school. You pride yourself on how "free thinking" and "educated" you are, but then you act like a child.

[jamieknyc]

As the Book of Proverbs says, don't argue with a fool.

[slipnslide]

Wow... your maturity astounds me. It reminds me of Jr. High school. You pride yourself on how "free thinking" and "educated" you are, but then you act like a child.

LOL!

I admit that I said whatever I thought it would take to get you fired up, but then you take that and try to insult me with it! FUCKIN' CLASSIC! :bigrin:

[Pasadenacpl2]

Because I'm saying whatever I think will get you all fired up and time after time it works.

I guess that's why congregations are referred at as a "flock".

Yes, yes. Now your claim is that you are just proving a point by getting people riled up over nothing.

My appologies to the rest of the thread. I thought this guy was actually trying to have a point. Turns out he's just a troll. At least he did us the courtesy of admitting it. Now we can ignore him.

Pasa

[pepperjack]

Don't the philosophers call what you asked an "appeal to ignorance"? i.e., something must be true if you can't prove it's false. Human beings MADE UP A STORY to satiate their discomfort with the things they couldn't understand (and to impose law). You might as well ask me to prove that any fictional character from history isn't real.

I take great joy in the demise of religion in Canada. From coast to coast, congregations are merging due to dwindling numbers, churches are being sold, demolished and replaced by condos, all because people just know better now. A couple generations from now and religion will be a weird thing practiced by a small minority in this country.

I actually have clergy in my family - but the secret we keep - it's just a job. He doesn't even believe the stuff but knows that it's his job to sell it - like you're selling a used car. Of course none of us would ever reveal that in real life.
so you're saying here that you revel in hypocrisy & deception? sounds like a very dysfunctional family; explains ur mindset somewhat; I've worked in sales & know from experience that the most effective salesmen are those who genuinely believe in their product; so I suppose u endorse all of the other false teachers out there & car salesmen who knowingly sell someone a lemon in the name of bringing home the bacon.

[jamieknyc]

so you're saying here that you revel in hypocrisy & deception? sounds like a very dysfunctional family; explains ur mindset somewhat; I've worked in sales & know from experience that the most effective salesmen are those who genuinely believe in their product; so I suppose u endorse all of the other false teachers out there & car salesmen who knowingly sell someone a lemon in the name of bringing home the bacon.

You're right, being a clergyman is not something you can do as 'just a job.' If you don't have the dedication to your work, an occupation of public service is not for you, and you should quit and take a job in business where 'just a job' will let you slide by.

[slipnslide]

You're right, being a clergyman is not something you can do as 'just a job.' If you don't have the dedication to your work, an occupation of public service is not for you, and you should quit and take a job in business where 'just a job' will let you slide by.

You're not understanding that for many people in the clergy it is "just a job." It's big time show biz for some. I recall one day talking to a priest who was waiting for some people and he said to me, "if these people don't show up soon they're going to fuck up my schedule". Then when they arrived he was all smiles and "in character".

[jamieknyc]

You're not understanding that for many people in the clergy it is "just a job." It's big time show biz for some. I recall one day talking to a priest who was waiting for some people and he said to me, "if these people don't show up soon they're going to fuck up my schedule". Then when they arrived he was all smiles and "in character".

I can't speak for clergymen other than rabbis, but I have never met a rabbi to whom it was 'just a job.'

[pepperjack]

You're not understanding that for many people in the clergy it is "just a job." It's big time show biz for some. I recall one day talking to a priest who was waiting for some people and he said to me, "if these people don't show up soon they're going to fuck up my schedule". Then when they arrived he was all smiles and "in character".

that's what I said, "all the other false teachers out there." YOU'RE NOT UNDERSTANDING that we're well aware of the hypocrisies in the religious world; haven't we seen enough religious leaders exposed by now? didn't Jesus warn that there would be false teachers & prophets?

[pepperjack]

Because I want people to break free and think for themselves.

what do u want people to break free of , Mr. Liberator? Jesus said "the truth shall set you free." Who taught you not to try to "reason" with religious people, the clergyman in ur family?

[pepperjack]

Wow... your maturity astounds me. It reminds me of Jr. High school. You pride yourself on how "free thinking" and "educated" you are, but then you act like a child.

I think u nailed him here, Jobe; I think what we have here is a game player,a pseudo-intellectual, the pot callin the kettlle black, because if anybody is guilty of "spewing horseshit".....

[pepperjack]

Now you two are just rambling on spewing horse shit and embarrassing yourselves - but I'm enjoying - so please continue.

It's fun to watch religious people scrambling.

Plus, I find it INCREDIBLY difficult to believe that you've read a single work by Richard Dawkins - so maybe stick to the shit you know. Like those little bible stories that they tell children. They're wholesome and delightful!

"Scientists who hold true to the Scientific Method don't respect Dawkins anymore than they respect Evangelicals who use the Bible as proof that what the Bible says is true." - trust me, if I got a room full of scientists together THEY WOULD LAUGH YOU THE FUCK OUT OF THE ROOM

funny, I don't feel the least bit embarrassed; and I'm definitely not scrambling; I'm known for standing my ground; I don't think a room full of scientists would be as arrogant, condescending and full of shit as u; Isaac Newton, considered to be "the father of modern physics" was a very God-oriented, spiritual man, and by that I don't mean organized religion; his contemporaries considered him a nut-case! and TRUST ME, I have good reasons for believing that Jesus was exactly who & what HE claimed to be!and why all this talk about proof anyway? if there was proof, we wouldn't need faith, something God desires.

[slipnslide]

TRUST ME, I have good reasons for believing that Jesus was exactly who & what HE claimed to be!

Your parents being brother and sister is hardly a good reason.

[slipnslide]

SON OF A BITCH!

The buddy posting as me for the last while bet me $10 he could get someone to bring up Newton.

Damn him, I'm out $10.

[Pasadenacpl2]

SON OF A BITCH!

The buddy posting as me for the last while bet me $10 he could get someone to bring up Newton.

Damn him, I'm out $10.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/Basilb101/obvious_troll.jpg

[pepperjack]

Some atheists are decent human beings, and respect other people's right to their opinion on something over which reasonable men may differ. Unfortunately, a lot of atheists are intolerant bigots.

not to mention, extremely arrogant, condescending, full of themselves; I met an atheist 3 years ago( who said he believed in God, yea, see here we go, & claimed he didn't need to make sense.) I had so many bad encounters w/him that I eventually considered him to be one of the most obnoxious human beings I have ever known; anyway , he fell in love with a very domineering Catholic woman who refused to marry unless he converted; so he did; standing joke was he converted to get laid; so he did his Catholic thing, went to Mass every week, started wearing his St. Jude medal; he's now very docile, much easier to get along with; but my conclusion is that he's a weak person, matter of fact, I know he is, but a much nicer person because he found love. "In all things, the Lord works together for good..."

[pepperjack]

Your parents being brother and sister is hardly a good reason.

It's called revelation low-life! U don't even have the guts to post any kind of a profile!

[pepperjack]

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn136/Basilb101/obvious_troll.jpg

obvious game-player & fake like I said.

[slipnslide]

I love that I completely hijacked this thread and now it's all about me!

:)

[pepperjack]

SON OF A BITCH!

The buddy posting as me for the last while bet me $10 he could get someone to bring up Newton.

Damn him, I'm out $10.

ur both fakes, punks, grow up!

[pepperjack]

I love that I completely hijacked this thread and now it's all about me!

:)

If its all about u, where's ur profile?

[pepperjack]

I love that I completely hijacked this thread and now it's all about me!

:)

yea, okay, u've had ur 15 minutes pissant! now go slipnslide back under ur rock.

[elian]

I think we should all give slipnslide a great big HUG, it seems he likes the attention.

<HUGS> ..seriously..

[pepperjack]

Well I was wondering if there were any other religious bisexuals out there. I am personally Catholic, I just think that it is silly to have a bunch of old virgins make the rules on sex. lol. I heard a Lesbian minister once say "I think God cares more about what we do with our resources then what we do with our genitals." I agree with that.

Look at wht u've unleashed Jobe; It's a good thing; u've stirred up a passion!

[slipnslide]

I think we should all give slipnslide a great big HUG, it seems he likes the attention.

<HUGS> ..seriously..

Hands above the waist! :)

[pepperjack]

I think we should all give slipnslide a great big HUG, it seems he likes the attention.

<HUGS> ..seriously..

he defifinitely has a mental problem.

[slipnslide]

Let's talk about me some more!

What else do you like about me?

[pepperjack]

Hands above the waist! :)

who would want u sexually anyway creepo?

[pepperjack]

Let's talk about me some more!

What else do you like about me?

u r a very mentally disturbed human being; seek help.

[slipnslide]

u r a very mentally disturbed human being; seek help.

You're a 58 year old man posting a web site that your partners say you're good at oral sex.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge others.

[pepperjack]

I think we should all give slipnslide a great big HUG, it seems he likes the attention.

<HUGS> ..seriously..

yes he does; I understand that ur trying to be a good person; Jesus said, "Do not give what is holy to dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they turn and rend you." In other words, be careful & discerning about who u give ur love & compassion to. I've got all kinds of red flags about this guy.

[slipnslide]

I think all he meant there was animals don't look good in jewellery.