Prayers for Norway

[DuckiesDarling]

I have been waiting to see a thread on here and it never materialized. If you can take just one moment a day and say a prayer for the citizens of Norway, most especially of Oslo as they struggle to deal with their terror attack.

[Hephaestion]

I think that most of us are stunned by the events DD and are waiting to see what the story is behind the actions.

Currently speculation is rife about the killer's affiliations with militant right wing organisations.

As it stands presently, he went on a killing spree to highlight excessive immigration and the threat of Islam in Norway. The camp that he visited himself upon was reprtedly a politically supported gathering of left wing organisations' children.

.

[tenni]

Reportedly, in the killer's manifesto, he makes more than forty references to my country, Canada. He blames Canada for supporting immigrant minorities and in particular Muslims.

[Realist]

Even the more gentle countries have their pains.

Don't forget the Quisling government that supported the Nazis...who'd ever think the vicious Nazis would find advocates there?

No place is safe from fanatics from any level of populations.

I feel so sorry for the parents and loved ones of the victims and the victims, themselves. If only one of the victims had been armed, the outcome could have been very different.

[tenni]

"If only one of the victims had been armed, the outcome could have been very different."

Your thoughts are very disturbing Realist. I suspect that only people from such as a violent country as your own have such an initial thought and reaction to such a horrible massacre in such a peaceful country. Such thoughts bred such sick men as this murder. His lawyer believes that he is insane.

[Realist]

Well, Tenni, you can just remain disturbed, then. I've heard enough of your poison commentaries. I'm going to deviate from my "no conflict" position on this site, for a short response.

But I'll tell you this, if you are determined to kill, or hurt, my friends, or family, I will use whatever weapon I can to defend them. Be it an axe, 2 X4, rock, or a firearm, as long as I had any breath, you would be in more danger than you expected!

I assume you would stand there and observe, take notes, and write in your pansy-assed diary, that you saw despicable things done to your friends/ loved ones, while you watched, as a gutless wonder! If just one of those victims were armed, the outcome could have been a lot less gruesome.

Don't blame what I say, or do, on my country; You've said things about this country long enough. You obviously do not know me, or my country. Where anyone lives has nothing to do with doing what's right, when others are in danger!

In my circle of friends, which include Canadian, English, and Swiss-born folks, who now live in Florida....I've never heard one of them make such an asinine statement, about this country........or deride anyone, who feel it's prudent to protect those in dire straights.

Just because I think you're an ignorant dip-shit, doesn't mean I assume that everyone in Canada are dip-shits, too! (or where ever you're born) In fact, on several trips to Canada, I've never met anyone like you!

Your comments about this country, and it's inhabitants, show that you are just about as stupid as your comments indicate. It just proves to me that assholes can come from anywhere!

Now, this will give you an opportunity to get on someone else's case and leave LDD and DD alone for a while!

[Wrenn]

Well, Tenni, you can just remain disturbed, then. I've heard enough of your poison commentaries. I'm going to deviate from my "no conflict" position on this site, for a short response.

But I'll tell you this, if you are determined to kill, or hurt, my friends, or family, I will use whatever weapon I can to defend them. Be it an axe, 2 X4, rock, or a firearm, as long as I had any breath, you would be in more danger than you expected!

I assume you would stand there and observe, take notes, and write in your pansy-assed diary, that you saw despicable things done to your friends/ loved ones, while you watched, as a gutless wonder! If just one of those victims were armed, the outcome could have been a lot less gruesome.

Don't blame what I say, or do, on my country; You've said things about this country long enough. You obviously do not know me, or my country. Where anyone lives has nothing to do with doing what's right, when others are in danger!

In my circle of friends, which include Canadian, English, and Swiss-born folks, who now live in Florida....I've never heard one of them make such an asinine statement, about this country........or deride anyone, who feel it's prudent to protect those in dire straights.

Just because I think you're an ignorant dip-shit, doesn't mean I assume that everyone in Canada are dip-shits, too! (or where ever you're born) In fact, on several trips to Canada, I've never met anyone like you!

Your comments about this country, and it's inhabitants, show that you are just about as stupid as your comments indicate. It just proves to me that assholes can come from anywhere!

Now, this will give you an opportunity to get on someone else's case and leave LDD and DD alone for a while!

Right On, Realist!! I couldn't agree more.

[usa1981]

I have been prying fo them to.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Not just there Babe, but all over the place right now. There was a gunman there in Seattle recently, and there has been barely Any news on hism at alleven tho 16 people were hurt. I dont know whats going On with these people! Maybe its the heat or whatever. All I know is its crazy. People scare me sometimes and the more I know about people, the more I miss my kitties...:(
Hugs to all, please be safe out there.
Cat

[tenni]

Realist
Read this article in the Guardian
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/24/norway-strict-gun-laws-circumvented

"Perhaps because the laws are already so strict and gun crime is relatively rare, gun control is not generally considered a political issue in Norway, unlike countries such as the US where a citizen's right to bear arms is guaranteed by the constitution and fiercely defended.
American bloggers opposed to gun control were quick to note that Norway's regulations did not stop Breivik carrying out the attacks."

The world is in sadness with the Norwegians. The Norwegian PM just stated on Canadian CBCnewsworld that the Norwegian people will continue to be an open society. He never ever made any reference to guns and shooting this insane man. Such thoughts and reactions come from you and your society. Many of us in Nordic countries do not think the way that your society does when it comes to such massacres and most definitely not as an initial reaction to use guns etc.

[DuckiesDarling]

This is not a thread about gun control or lack thereof, it's simply asking people to take one moment out of the day and pray for a country bereaved.

My heart goes out to the entire country and most especially the citizens of Oslo and even for the killer. There are indications he may not quite be in contact with our plane of reality but even at that, he should be pitied.

[Hephaestion]

Well said DD.

[Katja]

When one knows a place it is tragic events such as this appalling event in Norway which hit home especially hard. I have been a regular visitor to Norway since a child and know the island of Utoya even if I have never set foot upon it. I have family in Oslo, and a cousin who is an active member of the Labour party in Norway who has spent time on the island and was aquainted, I will not say friends, with several of those who lost their lives. So it is an event which brings a personal dimension.

Norway has very strict firearms laws and is to all intents an purposes a very civilised and peaceful country. This is a rogue event, hopefully one which will not be repeated and there is and knowing the Norwegians there will be no clamour to change in any way the relatively gun free status of Norwegian society. Norwegians will demand as they should, that lessons are learned, but in a society which has such a low crime rate as Norway rogue events such as this cannot be completely defended against. An armed society is more likely to be a more violent society and Norwegians do not want to be an armed society.

How other countries deal with events such as this is their affair and while Realist may be right in posing the question he did, that then poses the question of how much more violent would Norwegian society be if firearms were more readily available and what would be the long term cost to the people of the country? We cannot know that with certainty but we can hazard a pretty fair guess what the answer would be. It is that answer, theoretical as it is, which means there will be no fundamental change in how the country is.

So far this is a one of tragedy. It would be a folly to panic and change how Norway is because of a single event however tragic. That lessons are learned is essential but there is little defence against a determined surprise killer (as the USA found a decade ago and in Oaklahoma).

[goldenfinger]

I do believe he did have a gun license and was therefore a law abiding citizen. Time will tell. But we can not get away from the fact, that this mass shooting mentality, whether school or shopping center, all started in the US, like must other things we must have, and the rest of the wold just follow blindly. When news about mass shooting in the US reach the wider world, a seed is sown in some unstable persons head.The idea that if more people had a gun to counter such event in such a country is just what people from outside the US would call "crazy".
NORWAY, may you recover soon, my heart goes out to you.

[Long Duck Dong]

the mass slaughter of people with guns started well before the usa.... in places like south africa and rhodesia..... and further back to nazi germany...

its strange how we forget the history of the world when we want to blame somebody for something...... and its amusing how we can turn a thread of prayers for the victims of a tragedy, into a blame the USA thread....

[lizard-lix]

One of my best online friends is a gay Norwegian girl.. we have the same bad sense of humor :-)

It seems that the whole country is in shock, they just never, even in their darkest thoughts, envisioned anything like this happening there.

They have been so peaceful, the longest prison term they have is 21 years. Of course they are questioning that now..

My heart goes out to them, it is a hard way to learn the world can be worse than you realized..

[Katja]

No one is blaming the USA, LDD. Not even Tenni I dont believe, but the question of firearms was raised and different counrties have different cultures and attitudes regarding their availability.

When discussing such a tragedy it is quite normal once the intial shock is passed to consider what can be done to prevent such a tragedy recurring. Realist posed a question in a particularly American way, and others have responded in ways which are more in keeping with their own culture and personal feelings. It is natural when considering these things to look at the wider picture, and consider what the consequences would be to any change which may be made, and when doing so we will look at other cultures to try and learn lessons from them.

None of this is blaming the US, although the US has many lessons to teach, not all positive, and societies such as my own and that of Norway have drawn from those and come to different concusions on the availability and use of firearms. What it is, is human beings grappling with an awful tragedy and struggling to come to terms with it in their desire to prevent it happening again.

[Long Duck Dong]

katja I was refering to goldfingers remark about the school shooting mentality starting in the usa, cos it didn't... it started in south africa.. but most people never hear about that or know about it either cos it never made the news.... it was deemed not suitable or of public interest

so I was saying that the * blame the usa for that guys thinking *, is incorrect

you want to know what can be done to stop it happening in future ??? nothing, you can't... its that plain and simple..... and yes I know how that sounds.... but its true.

I am ex military, I know and understand how you can turn a person into a *machine * and how a person can become like that gunman in norway.... how a single minded belief can turn a person from joe bloggs into a terminator.....

take away guns and mr terminator will find and create another weapon.... IE car bombs etc as we have seen in other countries.....
create laws to stop them and then you will have activists complaining about invasion of rights and infringement of freedoms and lawyers to argue in court for rights......

and the whole time people will sit there and say * I would have never done that, what the hell was the guy thinking, he must have been insane * and the answer is no, hes not insane, he was making a statement, standing up for his rights, etc etc.... the same things we say about fighting for our rights....

all I can really say, is what a tragic way for society to sit up, take notice and then turn around and say, " we have to fight to stop this happening again, but if you turn and take away my rights or infringe on them I will fight back..... " and somewhere in the world, another person will think " I am going to make a statement and fight back"... and it begins again......
the same thinking of part of hitlers motivation with germany... and look what happened there....

I know that I will be told that I do not know what I am talking about, it happens all the time... and every time a tragedy happens like this, its cos somebody wanted to stand up and make a statement...... and we blame the guns....

my heart and prayers go out to everybody, not just in norway, but around the world, that are victims of somebodies * statement *... and how the fight for rights, is turning so deadly now

[BiPhone]

As one of the few norwegian bisexual men on this board I just wanted to say thank you for the support on the board. I could hear the mad mans gunfire over the phone as I talked to a friend that has a cabin near the island. She went to help the wounded as they came to land and Im very proud of her.

I am really proud of my country right now as we want to strengthen democracy and openess instead of revenge.

If anybody have any questions I have followed the situation on the news here in norway very closely.

[12voltman59]

This incident is truly a tragedy for Norway and the rest of us---as much as anything--it is a sad commentary our society that we can have made these individuals with such hate that eats up their hearts, minds and souls---and that not only they have such darkness in them---they feel the need to extend their internal miseries to others.

While this man has a sickness of his soul and whatnot--when it comes to his actions--I do hope that the legal system of Norway will not allow him to hide behind the law by claiming some sort of mental defect is responsible for his actions--that he had the presence of mind to set off a well coordinated, two stage attack in two varied locations---shows he is a well organized person and knew exactly what the hell he was doing.

I also hope they don't allow him to press his argument that he somehow had a right to do what he did because he considers that there is a war going on between "Western" and Islamic cultures----which therefore somehow justifies his actions--if he felt so strongly that Norwegian culture and such needs to be protected from the "scourge" of Islamic people--then he should have run for office and tried to put in laws to make Norway less welcoming to those people he hates, not go out and engage in mass murder!!!!

I am sure that Norway does not have the death penalty---but in this case--maybe they ought to consider it for this guy if and when he is convicted for the commission of his crimes----he really did forfeit his right to have a life when he decided he was going to be a one man army and take out so many people.

It is too bad that a country like Norway--one that is considered by some to be a bit more civilized than the rest of us---had to suffer an act of terrorism of this sort. It does go to show that in this day and time--no place is immune from such evil being perpetrated by a misguided individual.

[Katja]

Anders Breivik was not only paranoid about Islam, but about women too. he saw women as the root of much of Europes evils and considered that men, being the dominant gender had allowed Europe to be feminised which was a principle reason for the influx of moslems into the continent. He blamed women and feminism for many of Europe's ills and the emasculation of European manhood.

He may be an extreme example of the insecure European male but he is not alone in feeling as he does.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/27/breivik-anti-feminism

Norway will not change the law to execute a single person and nor should they.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Good article, Katya.

Proud to be a touch-feely girly man -- and a member of the barbaric Muslim invading horde as well!

[DuckiesDarling]

Watched some of the funeral coverage today, you can tell they are still a nation stunned and trying to understand how one of their own could do this.

[sixthickcut]

prayers for the living left to suffer the dead now memories and thoughts and deeds undone
peace luv and understanding is what is needed
it is up to us all to live life
the dead are traveling eternity now...
peace luv and happiness is the victory
fear loathing and hate is what the man brought to the world
make babies and love will grow
:bibounce:

[Nadir]

When I first heard about it on the news, I quite couldn´t believe it. It left me shocked, and the initial death toll of 93 people managed to shook me up. However, I also felt so much admiration for the Norwegian people, seeing how they behaved in the face of adversity, how they managed to stand up to what they believe when a madman like this one tries to uphold his demented ideas with violence.

Regarding the "gun control" debate, I don´t think that even one people having a gun for defence against the terrorist would have changed anything, mainly because of three factors:

a) There was already one armed person in the island (besides the lone terrorist, that is), there was a police officer with a weapon who was one of the first casualties on the attack that happened at the island.

b) Many, if not most of the victims were minors, and even in countries where gun control laws are relatively relaxed, there was no way the government was letting kids handle a gun, especially in a place where the First Minister was going to give a speech in a few days.

c) Most of the victims were people whose political leanings shifted towards the left, and so, possibly they favoured gun control and were opposed to gun usage in many ways. Even if the gun laws on Norway would have been any different, there is a strong possibility that not many people at the camp would have carried a gun for personal safety.

[Katja]

When I first heard about it on the news, I quite couldn´t believe it. It left me shocked, and the initial death toll of 93 people managed to shook me up. However, I also felt so much admiration for the Norwegian people, seeing how they behaved in the face of adversity, how they managed to stand up to what they believe when a madman like this one tries to uphold his demented ideas with violence.

Regarding the "gun control" debate, I don't think that even one people having a gun for defence against the terrorist would have changed anything, mainly because of three factors:

a) There was already one armed person in the island (besides the lone terrorist, that is), there was a police officer with a weapon who was one of the first casualties on the attack that happened at the island.

b) Many, if not most of the victims were minors, and even in countries where gun control laws are relatively relaxed, there was no way the government was letting kids handle a gun, especially in a place where the First Minister was going to give a speech in a few days.

c) Most of the victims were people whose political leanings shifted towards the left, and so, possibly they favoured gun control and were opposed to gun usage in many ways. Even if the gun laws on Norway would have been any different, there is a strong possibility that not many people at the camp would have carried a gun for personal safety.

Nadir, I wish only to discuss one spect of your post and that is point (c) for it raises quite an important issue in how Europe is at present.

In the last few years, Europe has seen a marked shift to the right, in part because of the integration of east European states into the European Union, but also because of the move to right right which has occurred due to the normal democratic process.

This move has seen greater stresses put on immigrants and ethnic minorities as the historical xenophobia of right wing parties has filtered down through society, and government policies have been less friendly to those minorities. That xenophobia and the nationalist feeling it fosters, has seen less tolerance of what is not culturally, native. Islam is just one target of this shift, but beginning with Merkel in Germany, declarations that the great experiment in multiculturalism in Europe is dead are a sign that right wing leaders and governments are searching for scapegoats for their countries, and Europe's problems. David Cameron in Britain and other leaders have said the same thing and without doubt there are tensions and paranoias being stoked up as a result of this less friendly approach.

Norway is a left of centre island in a sea of conservatism. The Norwegian Labour Party is the political establishment of that country, and Norway has a history of compassion and tolerance which is to be envied. It is a hugely prosperous country, which has used oil revenues well and has an infrastructure which any sane person can see is a model of good governance. However comfortable and prosperous Norway actually is, being the party of the political establishment it is not surprising that the acts of the perpetrator were aimed at that party.

So even in this prosperous, tolerant, compassionate country, we see an event of such horror, and death on a scale of such magnitude, that we recoil and wonder just how it could be in such a nirvana.

My uncle, a Norwegian businessman and a man of the right, and his son, an activist in the very party whose children suffered such death and destruction agree on this. That Norway is not and cannot be isolated from the world. That events in Europe and other parts of the world influence Norwegian thought and Norwegian culture, whether or not, and it is not, it is a part of the European Union. There will be those who are prepared to go to the enth degree in pursuit of a cause or belief, whether or not there is substance to that belief. The paranoid and the lunatic cares nothing about such niceties.