A (Personal and Political) Rant About Biphobia -- by Nancy Marcus

[NotLostJustWandering]

Reposted from Nancy Marcus's Facebook page, with her permission:

So last night, when a butch chick I was chatting up asked my sexual orientation and I answered honestly that I've been out as bisexual for 21 years, she proceeded to call me "Germy" for the rest of the night, with graphic delusional descriptions of how she thought bis constantly jump from one type of genitalia to the next from day to day, rendering her insult of me somehow valid. GET OVER YOUR BIPHOBIC BIGOTRY, PEOPLE. It's so twentieth century.

This is just the latest in many, many similar incidents that have occurred in my life, and I really don't have the patience or energy to*keep trying to defend*who I am any more.* I'm just going to start kicking people out of my life who are so adament about insisting that insulting me with sweeping smears of my sexual orientation is somehow acceptable.* Your ignorance is not my problem and I'm not going to waste my breath trying to educate you when, as a member of an already oppressed sexual minority, you should be informed and conscientious enough not to perpetuate against Bs & Ts the same kind of oppression gay men and lesbian have faced over time.* Oppression & bigotry are no more acceptable when committed by those who themselves have faced parallel discrimination... it's LESS acceptable because you KNOW better, people.* You. Know. Better.

Even at PRIDE this year, I was told by a "friend" that bisexuality doesn't exist as a sexual orientation.** I.e., told to my face that I, as someone who has loved, and had healthy sexual relationships with both men and women in my life, do not exist.* Thanks a lot.

And also in the recent past, I was told by someone in a position of influence and power in the local gay rights movement that it was inappropriate for me to come out to a local gay rights group as bisexual during a workshop on diversity awareness.* Wow.* If it's not safe to come out as who I* really am there... then where??

I could go on and on about other incidents of being treated like garbage because I "refuse to choose sides" or "sleep with the enemy," etc., but I won't.* I will say, however, that such discrimination usually comes from older butch lesbians.... which sadly is the demographic that I'm MOST attracted to.

I may not have had a boyfriend in over five years, and it may be tempting at times to call myself a lesbian to avoid the pretty frequent abuse like this I get.... and to make it easier to date older butch lesbians, who are my preference when it comes to sheer attraction.* But I'm simply incapable of lying about who I am just to make life easier.** I've spent my career fighting HARD for gay rights and have probably done more to advance LGBT equality politically and legally than all the people who have made anti-bi slurs to me combined.** My published work on gay rights has been cited by courts and scholars in their own recognition of LGBT rights, used by national gay rights groups in their work, and I've spent countless hours volunteering for the rights of all LGBT people, including those who insist that as long as*I identify honestly as bisexual, I'm engaging in some kind of selling out "privilege."

Yes, I feel privileged to constantly dread that the community I love and work so hard to protect and honor will reject me as an outsider, as not deserving.* Yes, I've clearly sold out by living outly and proudly as queer since age nineteen, so vocal about my passion for LGBT rights that most of my straight coworkers assume I'm lesbian.*

Please.* Don't think it's acceptable to think like this.* I'm a human being, and I fight every day for your rights to come out of closet without being treated like*a second class citizen, so if you could just give me the respect of respecting the same for me... is that really so much to ask?

[littlerayofsunshine]

I honestly Believe that bisexuals make up the largest least supported sexuality outside of heterosexuality. Summing up my opinions about both articles you have posted and having experienced my own bi phobia from both gays and lesbians. It makes me angry that we keep tying ourselves to the LGBT community cause we think we would be heard amongst the larger groups. But even when they work to drown out our voices, when do numbers lose their point? They need us for our numbers and OUR VOICE, to make theirs stronger. But I have yet to see their numbers stand with us alone. I have been attracted to both sexes since around the age of 8, and never very closeted about it with close friends and family. But I have never had 1 gay or lesbian friend say "I'm proud of you for your ability to be so honest about yourself" as I have said to mine own friends, when they chose to come honest about who they were and what they went through in their own journey.

I admit I'm jaded. But I have seen bisexuality from not only my POV, but from others who went from 'straight' or 'gay' and discovered there is more to life than the label they chose at one time. Overall, despite the bickering we do amongst ourselves. We as bisexuals are the more open and accepting of all phases of sexuality. Understanding included in the mix. If someone claims bisexual then later on discovers they are other than, we support their journey.

I appreciate these articles Atiq. Thank you.

[djones]

It makes me angry that we keep tying ourselves to the LGBT community cause we think we would be heard amongst the larger groups.

My feeling precisely. Many of us here in NYC are trying to break out from under their "rainbow" and use our own voice for our own recognition and acceptance. Hope you can join us.

[Bicuriousity]

Some homesexuals can be very rude about bisexuals. Have heard alot of the breeder comments (and just how were they born were) and way too much of the bi now gay later talk.

[NakedInSeattle]

Here in Seattle, we have an organization just for us bi guys and gals... http://www.binetseattle.org/ Do other cities have such?

[ErosUrge]

yes all too familiar. I was being hit on by a gay guy who was very intent on having sex with me. He asked if I had a lover and I told him, "no, not currently". He then asked how long had it been since I'd had a serious relationship with a guy. When I answered, I never have and the last serious relationship in my life was with a woman, he proceeded to say all the usual things that have been pointed out here. At the time I was stunned because it had never happened to me before. He could not conceive that anyone could have an interest in both sexes. So I challenged him with the question, " Have you ever had sex with a woman?"...and he answered, "yes, once and it was horrible...I just couldn't get into it. I knew I was gay before, during, and after that moment."...he said he did it so that he could at least say he'd had the experience and to confirm completely for himself he wasn't mistaken. So I then told him that surely there must have been people along the way who confronted him or challenged him about being gay and that if he knew how to be with a woman properly, etc. that he wouldn't be gay. He said of course but that didn't matter because he knew he was gay. So I said to him how was it that he could make such a comment with such conviction about his sexuality and not relate that the same is possible for people to enjoy both sexes? He simply couldn't make that leap. It perplexed him. He went as far as to say that he felt most guys who had a woman in their life but were sexual with men too were only using the woman to cover for being gay because of fear of revealing being gay to the world....
Interestingly, he still wanted to have sex with me....go figure.

[djones]

Interestingly, he still wanted to have sex with me....go figure.

So, did you fuck him ? - just kidding !

Seriously though, I have had similar experiences with gay men that couldn't really accept Bisexuality as a true orientation but wanted to have sex with me anyway. I have also been with gay men that accept me as Bisexual. When it comes to casual sex, the dividing lines don't really matter much, they only play in to things when relationships are concerned.

[Pasadenacpl2]

I keep reading about bi-separatism. I can't help but wonder what it would look like. OK, so let's say we form our own organizations. Do we still march for PRIDE? Do we still go to the leather conferences? How is it going to be different?

I ask seriously. I am not the sort of grand idea man who likes things in theory. I like practicality and knowing what concrete goals we would have.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

I honestly Believe that bisexuals make up the largest least supported sexuality outside of heterosexuality. Summing up my opinions about both articles you have posted and having experienced my own bi phobia from both gays and lesbians. It makes me angry that we keep tying ourselves to the LGBT community cause we think we would be heard amongst the larger groups. But even when they work to drown out our voices, when do numbers lose their point? They need us for our numbers and OUR VOICE, to make theirs stronger. But I have yet to see their numbers stand with us alone. I have been attracted to both sexes since around the age of 8, and never very closeted about it with close friends and family. But I have never had 1 gay or lesbian friend say "I'm proud of you for your ability to be so honest about yourself" as I have said to mine own friends, when they chose to come honest about who they were and what they went through in their own journey.

I admit I'm jaded. But I have seen bisexuality from not only my POV, but from others who went from 'straight' or 'gay' and discovered there is more to life than the label they chose at one time. Overall, despite the bickering we do amongst ourselves. We as bisexuals are the more open and accepting of all phases of sexuality. Understanding included in the mix. If someone claims bisexual then later on discovers they are other than, we support their journey.

I appreciate these articles Atiq. Thank you.

Here is one lesbian who is proud that you can be so honest about yourself. I'm sorry, Ray, if its a first and regret it, but for the life of me can't fathom the depth of animosity I find increasingly coming out of this site towards gay and lesbian people. Its almost as if bisexuals truly believe that as a block we hate you and have nought but contempt for you.

As a group we do not hate bisexual people nor do we have contempt for them. Nor do we hate the Transgendered or have contempt for them. We are allies in a common struggle for the right to be ourselves and respected for that, to live in peace and tranquillity with or without the partner of our own choosing, and not to be discriminated against because of who and what we are. That many gay and lesbian people think they know the minds and hearts of bisexuals better than they do themselves is a disgrace. It is NOT however the belief or attitude of the majority of gay and lesbian people. It is NOT my attitude for one, nor my general experience now or when I considered myself to be and was actively bisexual.

Whatever people think of gays and lesbians, our goal is the same as yours. That is why it is the lgbt movement. Within that movement there are differences as there are within any movement. There are grudges and resentments between people and groups which cause friction. We are human and therefore being human we disagree and squabble. That does not mean our goal is any different, it means each group or sub group has its own vision of how to proceed and what is important. They have an agenda and it is right that they do. Without an agenda how does anyone make progress? In the end we argue and prioritise and that is as it should be.

That bisexuals and the transgendered often feel sidelined by lesbians and gays is not entirely the fault of those people. The very nature of bisexuality and the vast numbers of bisexuals who are not out for reasons we can both understand restricts the influence they will have because of their reluctance to come out, and to stand up and be counted publicly. The transgendered are few in number relatively to either gays or bisexuals and their influence is swamped by that of the larger two groupings. I have found vis a vis the transgendered that bisexual people are far more likely to be contemptuous of the transgendered than lesbians and gays are of bisexuals, so there are tensions and there will always be tensions as groups and subgroups struggle to be heard within the lgbt movement.

I happen to agree with you that in this world of ours the largest grouping of sexual people after the heterosexual world is that of bisexuality. Arguably, it is in fact the largest, and many would and have made that claim for what is bisexuality? A case can easily be made that to some degree we are all bisexual because we have never sorted out where the lines that bisexuality begins and ends and what constitutes bisexuality.

There is an increasingly anti lesbian and gay tenor around which is more marked in this site than appears in the outside world. Maybe it's the fact that I am not North American, but in it appears more marked than in this country. That does not mean it does not exist in this country or elsewhere for it does.

If this increased division is real, the division between the gay and bisexual communities and that of the transgendered, then we are in deep shite. Since the 1960's in the west we have made such progress that the lives of our kind have been transformed. We have done that united and we will continue to do that united. If we begin to fragment and go our own way, then anyone who has any rudimentary knowledge of the great social issues of our world know how the establishment will love that, pick it up, run with it and destroy us. Divide and rule. How the anti lgbt world will love that.

We are in increasingly illiberal times. Now is not the time to start breaking apart something which has been one of the great and successful social movements of western history. The ONLY time to do that is when we are entirely accepted for what we are and there is no longer any need for a movement of lesbian gay bisexual or transgendered people. Nancy Marcus doesn't want the movement to break up. She can see how detrimental to our common cause it would be. She is a wise woman and I think bisexuals who dream of going out on their own would soon find just how mistaken that change would be.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Here is one lesbian who is proud that you can be so honest about yourself. I'm sorry, Ray, if its a first and regret it, but for the life of me can't fathom the depth of animosity I find increasingly coming out of this site towards gay and lesbian people. Its almost as if bisexuals truly believe that as a block we hate you and have nought but contempt for you.

As a group we do not hate bisexual people nor do we have contempt for them. Nor do we hate the Transgendered or have contempt for them. We are allies in a common struggle for the right to be ourselves and respected for that, to live in peace and tranquillity with or without the partner of our own choosing, and not to be discriminated against because of who and what we are. That many gay and lesbian people think they know the minds and hearts of bisexuals better than they do themselves is a disgrace. It is NOT however the belief or attitude of the majority of gay and lesbian people. It is NOT my attitude for one, nor my general experience now or when I considered myself to be and was actively bisexual.

Whatever people think of gays and lesbians, our goal is the same as yours. That is why it is the lgbt movement. Within that movement there are differences as there are within any movement. There are grudges and resentments between people and groups which cause friction. We are human and therefore being human we disagree and squabble. That does not mean our goal is any different, it means each group or sub group has its own vision of how to proceed and what is important. They have an agenda and it is right that they do. Without an agenda how does anyone make progress? In the end we argue and prioritise and that is as it should be.

That bisexuals and the transgendered often feel sidelined by lesbians and gays is not entirely the fault of those people. The very nature of bisexuality and the vast numbers of bisexuals who are not out for reasons we can both understand restricts the influence they will have because of their reluctance to come out, and to stand up and be counted publicly. The transgendered are few in number relatively to either gays or bisexuals and their influence is swamped by that of the larger two groupings. I have found vis a vis the transgendered that bisexual people are far more likely to be contemptuous of the transgendered than lesbians and gays are of bisexuals, so there are tensions and there will always be tensions as groups and subgroups struggle to be heard within the lgbt movement.

I happen to agree with you that in this world of ours the largest grouping of sexual people after the heterosexual world is that of bisexuality. Arguably, it is in fact the largest, and many would and have made that claim for what is bisexuality? A case can easily be made that to some degree we are all bisexual because we have never sorted out where the lines that bisexuality begins and ends and what constitutes bisexuality.

There is an increasingly anti lesbian and gay tenor around which is more marked in this site than appears in the outside world. Maybe it's the fact that I am not North American, but in it appears more marked than in this country. That does not mean it does not exist in this country or elsewhere for it does.

If this increased division is real, the division between the gay and bisexual communities and that of the transgendered, then we are in deep shite. Since the 1960's in the west we have made such progress that the lives of our kind have been transformed. We have done that united and we will continue to do that united. If we begin to fragment and go our own way, then anyone who has any rudimentary knowledge of the great social issues of our world know how the establishment will love that, pick it up, run with it and destroy us. Divide and rule. How the anti lgbt world will love that.

We are in increasingly illiberal times. Now is not the time to start breaking apart something which has been one of the great and successful social movements of western history. The ONLY time to do that is when we are entirely accepted for what we are and there is no longer any need for a movement of lesbian gay bisexual or transgendered people. Nancy Marcus doesn't want the movement to break up. She can see how detrimental to our common cause it would be. She is a wise woman and I think bisexuals who dream of going out on their own would soon find just how mistaken that change would be.


My luffly Fran,

The Animosity that you speak of for gays and lesbian, straight for that matter, having been a long time member of this site and having seen it evolve into what it is today. Does not come from the majority. But comes from one or two. Those of the same cloth that think women shouldn't be vocal about so many issues because we are the "minority" here. And no animosity comes from me.

Let me clarify. I don't mean that gay, lesbians, Trans, bisexuals should not stand together at all. At one time, bisexuality wasn't recognized. Hell I didn't even learn the word till I was in my late teens or early twenties. But I knew gay existed. Gay was a word that was a epithet as I was growing up. The majority of gays don't believe bisexuals exist, most heterosexuals believe that it should only exist in women and only when it fulfills a mans kink either in porn or a blue moon encounter in their bedroom.

I can look back at my life and say I was always bisexual. But it wasn't always the case. I began being attracted to girls early, around the age of 8. I had to keep it secret, cause it meant all those epithets that got taunted at me was true. I was a faggot, a dyke, a lesbian. I didn't have the attraction to boys until later on, once I was a preteen/early teenager. Then did I realize I couldn't be lesbian. There was no possible way. But who could I have told this journey to and they would understand it? For many years, No one. The girls I had sex with in my teenage years were in the same predicament as me. Only the girls they slept with, and the rare boy they were in love with that found it hot. IT was the only way to not be outted as a lesbian, but that doesn't keep everyone safe.

As I have told my story here in the past. I lost custody of a child, for a short period of time, but every minute being too long, because my ex said I HAD had sex with a woman. He was there, he watched... So was her husband, He watched too. And you know what.. That very same night, I fucked her husband and my man. Just not at the same time. But what ended up in my court record, to this day, pay a couple dollars and a copy can be had by anyone. It states I HAD A LESBIAN AFFAIR. Not a same sex encounter. I in essence, was deemed a lesbian, an unfit mother for being so. Though I spat two kids out of my vagina from having sex with a male. I was a lesbian.

On the news, During pride month. 98 percent of the news from my suburban area call it the "Gay pride parade". Those who aren't gay, but live under the colors typically call it just "Pride Parade". Same sex marriage, which officially became lawful in NY yesterday. On the news and media is called Gay marriage. I applaud the few in the media that call it the proper name of "same sex marriage" But Gay stands out, Gay is easy to say and is recognized. Gay Pride has large numbers because bisexual and trans stand with them. Gay was sometimes the only group a person could fit in, cause bisexuality is Moot, deemed a stepping stone to gay. Men and women found it easier and more accepting to say they are gay than to stand alone as a bisexual.

I have seen men and women on this site, start off bisexual and come of themselves and discover they are indeed gay. And to those men and women, I have congratulated them, supported them. And even till this day welcome them to come anytime they wish. I wish more gay and lesbian, transsexuals included would come to this site. It is not easy, I know its not. It was not easy for me to come where I am and stand proud as a bisexual, and stand against the ranks on both sides that claim it either a phase or a shield.

I would like to see bisexuals file ranks and multitudes of gay and lesbian stand with us and say "Bi's are real, we're here.. Get used to it" Just as we have done for them.

I want gays and lesbians to be less scared of dating or being with a bisexual because so many of us are just serial monogamous people just as they are. And it not be such a ego killer when the relationship/date ends and the bisexual is with a opposite sex person the next time. There are bisexual sluts, just as there are gay sluts and straight sluts with multitudes of partners. Gays cheat on gays, straights cheat on straights and so on and so forth. Bisexuals seems to take the brunt of the whole cheating/promiscuous scandal because it can't be predicted who we will do it with.

There was no anger in my first post. though I stated it makes me angry. My post was not intent with anger. Its frustration and sadness that I have no gay or lesbian friends anymore in my personal circle. Because I stood as who I was and got burned, and they chose to stand off from me. Called me confused and bi now, gay later. Oh its only a matter of time until I come out as lesbian. I was a threat to them and their sexuality, even though we were only friends and my sexuality shouldn't have made a difference to how they felt about their own.

So grant me a moment of understanding in why I said what I said, I did try to make it clear. I meant no harm or hard feelings. I just meant if bisexuals can't stand even a moment on their own as a loud and proud group, out from under the flag and have all sides recognize and give understanding. And we only stand while they also wave the same flag of pride. Then we will still be in essence doing what so many of them claim we do already. Hiding amongst them and our words will never really get heard.

If I left my husband tomorrow, and ended up in a relationship with a woman. I would still be bisexual. If I married her. IT would not be a gay marriage. IT would be a same sex marriage.

There is only one Gay and lesbian center near me, and its 40 minutes away. and that's what it is called. Gay and lesbian.. Who just happen to host a bisexual group once a month. I have tried to make a bisexual group that meets more often. But gave up after no one wanted to come. I might try again some day. There is a community center in my town that can be rented and meetings held. But as of now people see it too risky to be bisexual or having anything related with, and be in public at the same time where I live.


So I'm eager to see change, and frustration is a normal emotion to have while waiting for it to occur.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Thanks for the serious questions. Here are my answers. Others may have different ones.


I keep reading about bi-separatism. I can't help but wonder what it would look like. OK, so let's say we form our own organizations. Do we still march for PRIDE?

Yes, but not before we have created our own pride parade. We can take as an example the Dyke Marches that are becoming a feature of Pride Weekends in more and more cities. The lesbians march separately on a different day than the main parade, and then -- some if not all -- participate in the larger parade. I would say their presence in the larger parade is appreciated, rather than taken for granted, because they make themselves visible and show strength via their separate marches.



Do we still go to the leather conferences?

Yes, we can continue to participate in any group or event that is truly inclusive.


How is it going to be different?

I think that if we succeed in standing on our own, when we do show up at events and organizations that are supposed to be inclusive, we will encounter more respect than we do now, and more of us will feel inclined to attend, knowing that a more bi-friendly atmosphere has been created.

It's not about breaking alliances, it's about being strong. A strong ally is always appreciated. An weak ally will always be suspected of being in the alliance only out of neediness, and will be treated with contempt.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Here is one lesbian who is proud that you can be so honest about yourself. I'm sorry, Ray, if its a first and regret it, but for the life of me can't fathom the depth of animosity I find increasingly coming out of this site towards gay and lesbian people.

Oh? I haven't noticed any such animosity. Separatists like myself have been increasingly vocal here, talking about biphobia within the G&L populace, and urging that we stand up for ourselves. Is this what you deem as animosity toward G&L people? If so, than I guess you should consider feminists to be anti-male and Black people who organize against racism to be anti-White. Indeed, this is a reaction that oppressed people who organize always encounter, especially when their tactics of resistance entail working separately from allies within the populace that is oppressing them.


Its almost as if bisexuals truly believe that as a block we hate you and have nought but contempt for you.

Show me one post on this forum where any one of us has said such a thing.


As a group we do not hate bisexual people nor do we have contempt for them. Nor do we hate the Transgendered or have contempt for them.

As individuals there are PLENTY who do, and this hatred is expressed by leaders of G&L organizations and prominent members of the G&L community. As long as this continues, do not expect bi separatists to be silent.


We are allies in a common struggle for the right to be ourselves and respected for that, to live in peace and tranquillity with or without the partner of our own choosing, and not to be discriminated against because of who and what we are.

True. Now let me make an analogy. The stated purposes of the military forces of the United States, Canada, and the United Kingdom are to protect freedom and democracy, and indeed we seem to be allies. Should Canada and the UK dissolve their defense departments and disarm entirely, seeing what a great and powerful ally they have in the United States?



That many gay and lesbian people think they know the minds and hearts of bisexuals better than they do themselves is a disgrace. It is NOT however the belief or attitude of the majority of gay and lesbian people.

None of us can say what the majority view of G&L people is, and the argument is irrelevant. There is clearly ENOUGH biphobia that we -- the bisexual populace -- need to organize against it.



That bisexuals and the transgendered often feel sidelined by lesbians and gays is not entirely the fault of those people. The very nature of bisexuality and the vast numbers of bisexuals who are not out for reasons we can both understand restricts the influence they will have because of their reluctance to come out, and to stand up and be counted publicly. The transgendered are few in number relatively to either gays or bisexuals and their influence is swamped by that of the larger two groupings.

I agree with you here, and this is why I urge more bis to come out, be visible, and stand together -- with one another, not hiding in the ranks of the rainbow, where as you yourself point out here, the few in number get stomped on.



I have found vis a vis the transgendered that bisexual people are far more likely to be contemptuous of the transgendered than lesbians and gays are of bisexuals,

We should let the TG speak for themselves here. From my POV I see plenty of transphobia within the G&L populace, and not less than within the bi populace. They may want to organize separately, too.


If this increased division is real, the division between the gay and bisexual communities and that of the transgendered, then we are in deep shite. Since the 1960's in the west we have made such progress that the lives of our kind have been transformed. We have done that united and we will continue to do that united. If we begin to fragment and go our own way, then anyone who has any rudimentary knowledge of the great social issues of our world know how the establishment will love that, pick it up, run with it and destroy us. Divide and rule. How the anti lgbt world will love that.

LOL, should we take this as anti-straight animosity?

Not buying the argument that bi people organizing separately weakens the greater movement for sexual liberation. On the contrary, I think creating truly bi-friendly spaces should bring more bi people out, and making louder public voices that truly represent the bi populace will give the call for sexual liberation more validity. As long as it's seen as gay thing, there ain't so much in it for bi folk. We don't like the looks of the mono queer closet.


Nancy Marcus doesn't want the movement to break up. She can see how detrimental to our common cause it would be. She is a wise woman and I think bisexuals who dream of going out on their own would soon find just how mistaken that change would be.

Nancy Marcus is familiar with my views and was delighted to have me post this here on her behalf. I urged her to join the site and post it herself. She was tempted but is trying to cut down on her on-line time and said that for now she will lurk here silently.