The mono queer closet, and why we should be visible

[NotLostJustWandering]

I've been thinking today about the line widely touted by mono-queer bi deniers such as Dan Savage: that the reason so many young people identify as bi, but later in life switch to identifying as gay or lesbian, is that they start half-way out of the closet, still trying to win the approval of straight society, and then find the guts to come all the way out. How can these fools imagine that the homophobic would approve of bisexuality?

It's obvious to me that the exact opposite is true: those who go from being publicly bi to declaring themselves gay or lesbian are actually going INTO another closet. They come to find the double stigma unbearable and actually find it easier to identify as gay and lesbian. I think this is especially true for those who find gay and lesbian partners who have jealousy issues -- "Why are you still telling people you're bisexual? Are you looking for a woman on the side?"

Most of all, identifying as gay or lesbian means that while you may be hated by a lot of straight people, at least you have a community of supporters. And this, people, is where we fall short. Our failure to form viable community means that we leave each other out in the cold. Bi-erasure and bi-invisibility is self-perpetuating. Everyone who finds it convenient to pass as mono is passing up the opportunity to help another bi person who has no idea that they aren't really so alone.

So to all of you who keep saying "Why should I join bisexual community group? I'm so much more than my sexuality" or "Can't we just drop all the labels?" or "Why should I tell the world I'm bi? It's nobody's business but mine" or "I'm happy enough with my lover, let people think we're straight/gay/lesbian" I say this:

If you won't come out and be visible for your own sake, do it for all the other bi people who need your support. Do it for the sake of a freer, more enlightened, happier society.

[Long Duck Dong]

why should I join a bisexual community group ?

in my local area, its a group of people that are trying to get school kids to join ( legal age ), they meet once a month, and each time its a constant argument and bitching about how its so hard to get laid in our city..... etc etc and the group is avoided by most LGBT people and their allies and friends

I can go for a drink with my bisexual friends, and we will talk about the rugby, computers, movies, the weather, cars, partners etc etc..... and there are more of us than there is in the bisexual community group......

thats why I am happy to be out with the LGBT friends I have,... as we are being visible, normal people, enjoying life, having fun.....and showing people that we are more than a sexuality

the local bi group started a couple of years ago, they still have 7 members.... but my group of friends has attracted 19 people and most of them want friends, not bed buddies... just friends they can socialise with......

its good to talk about bisexual groups, but what are you offering people ??? and what is going to make your group more attractive to them, than their friends company ?

[NotLostJustWandering]

LDD, it sounds like you are doing exactly what I am advocating: being out, visible and a source of support for your fellow bi people. This is community. It doesn't have to be a publicly advertised group meeting in a room once a month. I can understand the problem of self-perpetuating group lameness. Obnoxious, unattractive people scaring away the cool people who could make the group something useful. Seen it happen in many contexts. And many times I have also seen the opposite.

So, keep on doing what you're doing. But if you and your 19 friends also were to form something where people who don't happen to know you personally could find you, that would be even better.

[jwcel]

i say we need to form more bi groups everywhere and use that to expand inch by inch or just work on a few groups at a time?? and attempt to form more bi events worldwide on larger scales? then more people would happily come out such as me!

[nudistharry]

[QUOTE=NotLostJustWandering;203666]......
It's obvious to me that the exact opposite is true: those who go from being publicly bi to declaring themselves gay or lesbian are actually going INTO another closet. They come to find the double stigma unbearable and actually find it easier to identify as gay and lesbian. I think this is especially true for those who find gay and lesbian partners who have jealousy issues -- "Why are you still telling people you're bisexual? Are you looking for a woman on the side?"
....
QUOTE]

Interesting view! Never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. It may not always be true, but I'm sure it is true a lot.

There are 2 ladies I know who were living together as a couple. Both had been previously married and both said that they are lesbian. I suspected that they were acually bi but living in a monogamous lesbian relationship. During a conversation one say, I came out to them as being bisexual, but since I'm in a mongamous relationship with my wife I'm not involved with another guy. I asked them if they were actually bi, but (like me) in a monogamous relationship. They both denied being bisexual, and both said they have no desire to ever be with a man again. (In case you are wondering, they know that I have no desire to have sex with either of them.)

Well...... after 3 or 4 years together, they split up and one of the ladies went back to her husband. An interesting developement for a lesbian who has no desire to be with a man again. The other lady recently said that she is "open minded" about whether her next relationship is with a man or a woman.

Sure sounds bisexual to me.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD, it sounds like you are doing exactly what I am advocating: being out, visible and a source of support for your fellow bi people. This is community. It doesn't have to be a publicly advertised group meeting in a room once a month. I can understand the problem of self-perpetuating group lameness. Obnoxious, unattractive people scaring away the cool people who could make the group something useful. Seen it happen in many contexts. And many times I have also seen the opposite.

So, keep on doing what you're doing. But if you and your 19 friends also were to form something where people who don't happen to know you personally could find you, that would be even better.

lol we are more visible than a neon sign..... and we wanted a better look for the LGBT than we had.... so yeah, its working.... but it was word of mouth and personal conduct that draws people..... there are a few of us that are fem and flamboyant and that helps the group stand out.... but there are very few people in town stupid enuf to have a go at us a second time.....

as a joke we were called the LeGless lot ( lesbian and gay less and legless is a term for being drunk ) and its stuck...... but we do not exclude the LGBT at all...or straight people.... its just that the core of the group is basically bisexuals and we accept the viewpoint that some of us may well be gay or lesbian more than bisexual, but we don't really care cos some of the group started out as gay / lesbian / straight and now ID as bisexual

[hgf33]

My friend is a lesbian, and I've changed her poor views of bisexuals. I am out to my sister and some friends, but I'm willing to tell almost anyone I meet because I WANT so badly for it to be known. It's something I'm proud of. My one problem is my family, mostly just my parents and my grandparents. A lot of what you described, NotLost, is exactly what I've explained to my best friend. It would be so much easier to come out to my family if I was just a lesbian. I'd only be interested in one sex, and they'd eventually just have to get used to it. Coming out as bisexual may seem so easy to the gay community because they look at us as already being half accepted. This may be true... sometimes.

My issue is this. I've had boyfriends and have been boy crazy my entire life. While I assumed I was bi when I was 19, I wasn't 100% sure of it until I was already with my current boyfriend. That's a long life of men. Coming out as bisexual to my family would just be confusing to them. (Especially my grandparents bc they don't have the knowledge, the resources, or the understanding.) I know my family would still accept me, but I don't want them to see me differently. I've been a tomboy my entire life, and it has nothing to do with my sexuality... but I don't want my dad to think that his daughter is not actually his little tomboy, but just half a lesbian. My boyfriend and I try to make me feel better by saying it's not necessary. I'm with him, they don't need to know what I do in my private life. This is true. But it still feels like a bit of a burden sometimes. Not sure why. I just want to get on Facebook and post a status saying "Hi, my name is _____, and I'm bisexual!"

[Katja]

I don't think that thhe purpose of becoming visible is, as I did yesterday, to interview a 15 year old high school student for a summer job who was more interested in my hair, my eyes and my dress and I suspect what I could 'do' for her than ever she was interested in the job opportunity offered. The parting question of 'Are you really a lesbian?' was not what a prospective employer wishes to hear from a prospective employee, and certainly not a girl who is not that very long out of her nappies.

[tenni]

"Our failure to form viable community means that we leave each other out in the cold. Bi-erasure and bi-invisibility is self-perpetuating."

Notlost
This is where my understanding about bi erasure and bi invisibility seems to be not aligned with your thesis.

It seems that you believe that bi invisibility is mainly the individual's responsibility?

I was just reading a blog by Greta Christina where she discussed US Republican politicians being caught in men's rooms having same sex action. She points out that outing such guys may contribute to bi invisibility. These married men are labelled "gay" without any consideration to being bisexual. She goes on a similar idea to you that being bisexual should not just be an individual decision as it contributes to bi invisibility in such cases as politicians engaging in same sex activities being labelled gay. There is no test to declare such a man gay or bisexual. It may be argued that since he is married with children that he may be bisexual rather than gay. It is the media that declares him gay and eliminates the possibility that he is the terrible greyness of bisexuality.

http://gretachristina.typepad.com/greta_christinas_weblog/2011/03/closeted-politicians-and-bi-invisibility.html

Similarly, if nineteen people are in a bar or restaurant. Some are gay, Some are bisexual Some are asexual. Some heterosexual. How does that help bisexual visibility? Do the bisexuals wear bisexual name tags to distinguish themselves from being thought of as gay? If a person declares themself bisexual and out what do they do to be visible other than continuing to say I'm bisexual. I'm not hetero and I'm not gay.

I thought of bi invisibility as being more about organizations, institutional bi erasure and bi invisibility. How is it more an individual's issue?

[NotLostJustWandering]

Tenni, I'm not denying the awful pressure we face to be closeted, whether it's to deny our homosexuality or our heterosexuality. But it is certainly an individual choice whether we choose to knuckle under or resist. I'm not going to tell you or anyone else HOW to be visible. I think once you make the decision to be visible, life will present you with endless opportunities to do so.

[Long Duck Dong]

Similarly, if nineteen people are in a bar or restaurant. Some are gay, Some are bisexual Some are asexual. Some heterosexual. How does that help bisexual visibility? Do the bisexuals wear bisexual name tags to distinguish themselves from being thought of as gay? If a person declares themself bisexual and out what do they do to be visible other than continuing to say I'm bisexual. I'm not hetero and I'm not gay.

I thought of bi invisibility as being more about organizations, institutional bi erasure and bi invisibility. How is it more an individual's issue?

its simple, people that talk with us, learn about us...... we are open and approachable.... not closeted

the fem / flam gay people stand out in the group so they are visible as gay / bi people as they are what people think of as gay people..... but when people take the time to talk with us, they found out that we are a mixture of people and as diverse as people of different races that are not clearly visible as a person of that race......

if I was to stand up as a scottish male, I am still invisible, unless I stand up in a kilt, yet many people know that I am full blooded scottish, not NZ born....

its the same thing with a LGBT march, with mixed sexuality, there is often no way to tell the difference between a straight, gay, lesbian and bisexual person as our mannerism is no different to other people.... so we make ourselves stand out with signs and banners, what we wear and dress......

so what we did, is we slowly made a name for ourselves, and not just as LGBT, we have 1 cop, a ex bouncer / barman, 2 nurses,one ambulance aide and 3 employers / business owners in our group and thats something that is known to the bar owners and managers and that is something that matters to them, plus having a LGBT friendly label on the bar, means that word gets around that its a * safe * bar for out of town LGBT....

as word of mouth grew, people settled down as they realised they could talk with us and joke around, without being hit on, we were not going to grope them in the toilets etc etc.... and that has led to many people learning that there is a lot more to the LGBT than * poofters and fags and man hating lesbians *

what most people struggle with is the fact that we are normal people, we are not aliens from another world and we are not sexually obsessed people, most of us are in relationships ( some mono and some poly ).....and they realise that they know hetero people that are the same..... so the differences start to disappear faster......and we stop being the outsiders of society and a bigger part of it......

yes there is LGBT phobics in the town, but its a lil hard to be a loud mouthed bigot in a bar where most of the patrons will turn on you for your mouth, cos you are insulting their friends, their LGBT friends and being a asshole in their bar...... and thats a long way from the first days when many of the patrons were standoffish and unsure about us.......

so the key to being visible, is not being in a persons face, but making a name for yourself without making enemies cos of a agenda.......

how is that a individuals issue..... well cos its a individuals choice on how they act, what they say and how they do it.....and any group is made up of individuals and the LGBT is no different......

a comment was made once in the site about people walking down the road and kissing and being seen as gay / lesbian, not bisexual and how that was wrong...... so the best way for people to learn that you are bisexual, is get to know you...... cos the people walking down the road holding hands, may be straight sisters, not lesbians.....

using a flag icon etc works if other people know the meaning of it, until then, its just a symbol..... and using the statement that we have to educate people about symbols is not going to work, cos you are not teaching them about you as a person, but merely a symbol... and that means they will assume about you as a bisexual, not know about you as a person and how you think feel and act.....

[BiDaveDtown]

LDD, it sounds like you are doing exactly what I am advocating: being out, visible and a source of support for your fellow bi people. This is community. It doesn't have to be a publicly advertised group meeting in a room once a month. I can understand the problem of self-perpetuating group lameness. Obnoxious, unattractive people scaring away the cool people who could make the group something useful. Seen it happen in many contexts. And many times I have also seen the opposite.

So, keep on doing what you're doing. But if you and your 19 friends also were to form something where people who don't happen to know you personally could find you, that would be even better.

Keep in mind that Long Duck Dong is not bisexual at all but he's asexual and he has frequently posted about how much he really hates and dislikes bisexual men.


I am asexual I was born without a sex drive, I don't have sexual attraction to anyone.....if you want to know what it's like to be someone like me think back to the time when you were younger before you were sexually attracted to anyone at all and this is what I am like.....

As for his group of drinking buddies nobody is going to know that these people are not heterosexual or are GLBT at all.

[Darkside2009]

I don't think that thhe purpose of becoming visible is, as I did yesterday, to interview a 15 year old high school student for a summer job who was more interested in my hair, my eyes and my dress and I suspect what I could 'do' for her than ever she was interested in the job opportunity offered. The parting question of 'Are you really a lesbian?' was not what a prospective employer wishes to hear from a prospective employee, and certainly not a girl who is not that very long out of her nappies.

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Just out of idle curiosity, how did the topic of your sexuality, arise during a job interview in the first place? I could understand terms and conditions of employment but your sexuality?

[Katja]

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Just out of idle curiosity, how did the topic of your sexuality, arise during a job interview in the first place? I could understand terms and conditions of employment but your sexuality?

During the interview there was no discussion of sexuality whatsoever. That is not how I do business. But one does become aware when when the candidate's interest in the position is secondary, and one is getting the onceover. The question was put after the interview ended and received a rather curt and dismissive reply.

As I have told the OP privately when he queried my reason for posting, there are disadvantages occasionally to being visible, and this was one.

May I say that after the initial shock of visibility created by a certain notoriety within the community, there has been a return, not to invisibility exactly, but to a certain quietness where most people just allow me to get on with my life. I am unsure quite how that fits in with those who wish for greater visibility for people like us, but it is how I like it because then we become judged on our merit rather than on our sexuality.

As an aside, which may be of interest, but my little business currently employs 10 people including myself. All but one other are part time employees. To my certain knowledge none is openly bisexual or gay other than myself, neither are any as far as I am aware sexually interested in their own gender in a more covert way. I am uninterested in their private business.

[Katja]

[I]
Similarly, if nineteen people are in a bar or restaurant. Some are gay, Some are bisexual Some are asexual. Some heterosexual. How does that help bisexual visibility? Do the bisexuals wear bisexual name tags to distinguish themselves from being thought of as gay? If a person declares themself bisexual and out what do they do to be visible other than continuing to say I'm bisexual. I'm not hetero and I'm not gay.

I thought of bi invisibility as being more about organizations, institutional bi erasure and bi invisibility. How is it more an individual's issue?

True visibilty of bisexuality does require more than simply an organisational declaration and involvement. It must be done at the personal leval also. This does not ean we tell all and sundry our sexuality every moment of the day, but it does mean that when the circumstances arise we are not ashamed of what we are and declare it openly.

Often at 'lesbian' nights in clubs or even in more run of the mill events chat gets round to sex and very often sexuality. On such occasions it should not be compulsory we declare ourselves, but if we are to become as accepted in the world as any other sexuality, it is on our long term interests to do so.

In the end it is an issue of the individual. The right of each individual to be themselves. Organisations are important to aid that, but what it all comes down to is our right to be, and we have our own responsibility as individuals to further the right of all of us to be accepted for what we are.

[tenni]

Thanks for your persepective Katja and Notlost.

Knowing myself a bit, I know that it is the more abstract aspect of when I feel that an injustice is happening that might bring myself to a point of acting or reacting. I can not still comprehend how if I were in a group of people that by identifying myself as bisexual that it would impact the larger issues that I see as societal and media based bi invisibility and bi erasure.

As an artist curator, I found myself in a position a few years back where a grant was obtained and as part of that grant there was to be a project involving GLBT. The person who wrote the grant was a real hum dinger and had twisted another curator's wish to do a project not necessarily GLBT based. Doing such a project, increased the possibility to get the grant. I stepped forward when no one else would do the project. I thought that it was important for the organization to do what it said that it was going to do. I knew that by stepping forward that I would bring attention to myself. Usually gay people do such projects and are quite political about it.

So, I stepped out and did the project. It was absolute hell. I experience all kinds of veiled attacks from the person who twisted the grant. At one point, I was threatened that the police would be called because of the sexual content of one of the videos. I asked an artist rights organization on what I should do if the police came to shut me down and charge me. I found it worthwhile to do the project and interesting except for all the attacks that were put on me. I became physically ill from the stress and caught some virus that you get while under stress. I considered taking the situation to a Human Rights Tribunal. Now, I still said nothing about my own sexuality though. I decided that if I went to the Tribunal that I would state that I was bisexual. Just by doing the project, I realized that people might consider me gay. I even worked with a GLBT Pride group to promote the video screening. They had never had such a screening happen. I attended one of their meetings and stated how I was being treated. I got applause. I guess they assumed that I was gay. So, I was visible but invisible?...lol I saw no reason to say what my sexuality was. I was doing something.

One final thing to point out. This is alternative culture when I write about my arts community that I belong to. I was looking at videos that are with a distributor(s) that deals with art videos and not mainstream videos. The fact that a video is about gender or sexuality increases it chance of being kept and available through this distributor. GUESS WHAT!!!! There was not ONE fricken bisexual video in their collection. Not one. Gay, lesbian and transgendered but not one bisexual art video in hundred of videos in their collection from the past thirty five years of art videos. I thought that well, maybe I should do one then...(I'm also represented by them) I still don't have a focus on what to do it about though. It would be extremely challenging for me to make such a video.(partially because of how I do not do linear video and partially because what to say). I somehow feel that I could latch on to what I perceive as societal injustice about bi invisibility and bi erasure. I still would not say I'm bi though...lol I'd let my actions speak. I haven't thought about doing such a video for awhile...makes my creative juices start to flow a bit...lol I still believe that my sexuality is my business.

I know ...I'm strange..lol
Anyway, thanks for your thread Notlost.

[slipnslide]

So to all of you who keep saying "Why should I join bisexual community group? I'm so much more than my sexuality" or "Can't we just drop all the labels?" or "Why should I tell the world I'm bi? It's nobody's business but mine" or "I'm happy enough with my lover, let people think we're straight/gay/lesbian" I say this:

If you won't come out and be visible for your own sake, do it for all the other bi people who need your support. Do it for the sake of a freer, more enlightened, happier society.

This is nice in theory, but fails in practice. Me being more openly bi is simply going to get a "why are you telling me this?" from most people I know under 40. You're asking people to politicize their lives, not for themselves, but for other people? Why?

It seems clear from what I've read that bisexual groups don't work. Plus, do I want to join a support group for every nuance of who I am? Where do I draw the line? Would "Celebrating Being White" be a good group too?

[NotLostJustWandering]

This is nice in theory, but fails in practice. Me being more openly bi is simply going to get a "why are you telling me this?" from most people I know under 40.

Tried it yet? I've found it sometimes leads to mutually rewarding conversations. Even with people under 20.



You're asking people to politicize their lives, not for themselves, but for other people? Why?

I find connecting with other people makes life more meaningful. The closer the connection, the better the payoff. This on-line stuff counts, though it's on the further side of possible human connections.

If nothing else moves you, consider that bisexuals have higher suicide rates than even gays and lesbians. Your help is needed.



It seems clear from what I've read that bisexual groups don't work.

defeatism
1. the acceptance of defeat as a foregone conclusion and the resultant failure to make an effort to succeed.
2. the views underlying acceptance of the frustration or thwarting of a goal, especially by the failure to prevent them. Cf. futilitarianism. — defeatist, n., adj.


Plus, do I want to join a support group for every nuance of who I am? Where do I draw the line? Would "Celebrating Being White" be a good group too?

Anybody out there having a hard time being White?

[niftyshellshock]

Tried it yet? I've found it sometimes leads to mutually rewarding conversations. Even with people under 20.




I find connecting with other people makes life more meaningful. The closer the connection, the better the payoff. This on-line stuff counts, though it's on the further side of possible human connections.

If nothing else moves you, consider that bisexuals have higher suicide rates than even gays and lesbians. Your help is needed.




defeatism
1. the acceptance of defeat as a foregone conclusion and the resultant failure to make an effort to succeed.
2. the views underlying acceptance of the frustration or thwarting of a goal, especially by the failure to prevent them. Cf. futilitarianism. — defeatist, n., adj.



Anybody out there having a hard time being White?

[QUOTE=NotLostJustWandering;203947]Tried it yet? I've found it sometimes leads to mutually rewarding conversations. Even with people under 20.

When I've told people about my bisexuality, it doesn't materialize into a commentary on the social status quo of society. The common thread is..."Oh, how was it?" "What'd you do?" "Have you done anything since?" "Awesome, so how about the Astros.."

"I find connecting with other people makes life more meaningful. The closer the connection, the better the payoff. This on-line stuff counts, though it's on the further side of possible human connections."

And some of us don't like labels at all. In my class, I'm one of a handful of Hispanics. Race, like sexual orientation, is an immutable characteristic. Am I drawn to people because they speak Spanish? Yes, but I'm not about to start all these clubs just because we just happen to have been born brown. I'm a member of the Hispanic bloc, but I count none of them among my close friends.
I want to be recognized for what I do, not for what my tag is. I want to be Nifty, the awesome student, not Nifty the bisexual.

Way I see it, I'm always up for fighting for GLBT rights, but if I fight, I'm going to fight on my own terms and without any tags pinned on me

[slipnslide]

Tried it yet? I've found it sometimes leads to mutually rewarding conversations. Even with people under 20.


Yes. "The no one really cares" was from experience. Canadians don't really talk about sexuality. The attitude is whatever goes on at home, goes on at home and isn't my business.



defeatism
1. the acceptance of defeat as a foregone conclusion and the resultant failure to make an effort to succeed.
2. the views underlying acceptance of the frustration or thwarting of a goal, especially by the failure to prevent them. Cf. futilitarianism. — defeatist, n., adj.

Why include a definition for defeatism but not one for rationalism? My argument after all was based on it.

[Katja]

Anybody out there having a hard time being White?

It should come as no surprise that yes there are quite a few in our society and no doubt in your own who are given a hard time and worse because they are white. I accept that in our cultures, not to the same degree as those of other ethnic groups, but white people are victimised, attacked and killed by those of other racial groups for the very simple reason that they are white, and not always white supremacist/racist either.

[tenni]

"Yes. "The no one really cares" was from experience. Canadians don't really talk about sexuality. The attitude is whatever goes on at home, goes on at home and isn't my business."

I would generally agree with Slip. Canadians do not get into conversations about sexuality unless they are being sexual politicians. Same sex marriage is here and it is no big deal for awhile now. It is hard to get excited when states in the US get same sex marriage but we congratulate you. I've known people for awhile and not known that they were gay. It isn't that they are hiding it. It just didn't come up in the conversation. When/if it does it is said casually. No big deal. However, no one has said that they are bisexual nor has anyone commented in a gossipy way that X is bisexual. I know one woman artist and found out that she was gay when discussing another artist. She laughed and said that the other woman artist was an ex. About a year later, she introduced me to a man and was being affectionate with him. Guess, that she is bi. Its not my business.

For a lot of the Canucks the idea that what goes on in your bedroom is only your business has been around for at least forty years when Prime Minister Trudeau introduced the idea in Parliament. We don't nor have we gotten too upset with sex scandals in politics. It is not our business what orientation a politician is. It is mentioned when a gay federal politician married a guy a few years ago and they were placed on a government Christmas card image. No one reacted publicly either way as I recall. Accusing a politician of being gay is not going to win his opponent any points generally.

However, there is also a backlash happening to some degree. The bigots are making themselves more and more visible. How this will play out, I'm not sure. I suspect that the present federal government is trying to silence more progressive thinking in the public domain.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Tenni & Slip: your testimony about Canadian society sounds like how I'd like to see American society in the future. My arguments for bi separatism come from decades of experience of biphobia in the American G&L community. It seems that the intolerance they experience within the larger society is turned on us in turn. There are many reasons for this, but I think the ultimate deciding factor is that they think they can get away with it. It's rather like bullying on the schoolyard; anyone who looks weak and unwilling to fight for himself is going to get his ass kicked, but anyone with the guts to throw a few punches may be befriended by the bullies themselves. I wish it didn't have to be this way but wishful thinking isn't getting us anywhere.

I've never been to Canada, so I'll have to take your word for it, of course. I have heard at least one contrary opinion, as well as testimony of biphobia in England's queer community.

[Darkside2009]

I've been thinking today about the line widely touted by mono-queer bi deniers such as Dan Savage: that the reason so many young people identify as bi, but later in life switch to identifying as gay or lesbian, is that they start half-way out of the closet, still trying to win the approval of straight society, and then find the guts to come all the way out. How can these fools imagine that the homophobic would approve of bisexuality?

It's obvious to me that the exact opposite is true: those who go from being publicly bi to declaring themselves gay or lesbian are actually going INTO another closet. They come to find the double stigma unbearable and actually find it easier to identify as gay and lesbian. I think this is especially true for those who find gay and lesbian partners who have jealousy issues -- "Why are you still telling people you're bisexual? Are you looking for a woman on the side?"

Most of all, identifying as gay or lesbian means that while you may be hated by a lot of straight people, at least you have a community of supporters. And this, people, is where we fall short. Our failure to form viable community means that we leave each other out in the cold. Bi-erasure and bi-invisibility is self-perpetuating. Everyone who finds it convenient to pass as mono is passing up the opportunity to help another bi person who has no idea that they aren't really so alone.

So to all of you who keep saying "Why should I join bisexual community group? I'm so much more than my sexuality" or "Can't we just drop all the labels?" or "Why should I tell the world I'm bi? It's nobody's business but mine" or "I'm happy enough with my lover, let people think we're straight/gay/lesbian" I say this:

If you won't come out and be visible for your own sake, do it for all the other bi people who need your support. Do it for the sake of a freer, more enlightened, happier society.

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If I ever feel the need for political advice from this man, you have my permission to shoot me. Remember this is the guy who tried to join a group of dissidents in Egypt whom he had never met before, over the telephone, I might add, then wondered why he got arrested by the Egyptian police.

In case they had any difficulty finding him he even included helpful directions on how to get to both his house and place of business, complete with photographs.

Frankly, he was lucky he didn't get a bullet in the head in Egypt and end up buried in some shallow grave out in the desert. So I personally, will forgo the pleasure of his incisive perception and rely on my own judgment in any and all matters.

A person is not defined by one facet of their character, but by the sum of all their parts. Would I allow another person to define what is the most important facet in my life in order to fit in with their political agenda? Not for one instant.

They can tamper all they want with their own lives, I will decide what is important for me.

[slipnslide]

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If I ever feel the need for political advice from this man, you have my permission to shoot me. Remember this is the guy who tried to join a group of dissidents in Egypt whom he had never met before, over the telephone, I might add, then wondered why he got arrested by the Egyptian police.

In case they had any difficulty finding him he even included helpful directions on how to get to both his house and place of business, complete with photographs.

Frankly, he was lucky he didn't get a bullet in the head in Egypt and end up buried in some shallow grave out in the desert. So I personally, will forgo the pleasure of his incisive perception and rely on my own judgment in any and all matters.

A person is not defined by one facet of their character, but by the sum of all their parts. Would I allow another person to define what is the most important facet in my life in order to fit in with their political agenda? Not for one instant.

They can tamper all they want with their own lives, I will decide what is important for me.

I'm not sure where you're going with this but you are aware how this story ends right? It was kinda in the news for a while. (spoiler: the dissidents won, and the police joined in)

[NotLostJustWandering]

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If I ever feel the need for political advice from this man, you have my permission to shoot me. Remember this is the guy who tried to join a group of dissidents in Egypt whom he had never met before, over the telephone, I might add, then wondered why he got arrested by the Egyptian police.

LOL, yeah, you might want to take that into consideration. Still alive and kicking though, aren't I? I did know the chances I was taking, though. Coming out as bi is a lot safer than getting involved in guerilla warfare.


In case they had any difficulty finding him he even included helpful directions on how to get to both his house and place of business, complete with photographs.

This part is not true. And you are falsely assuming a level of efficiency in the Egyptian police based on life in the First World. They didn't even escort me out of Nakhl, they just flagged down a motorist and told him to take me with him. If I was a real desperado, I could easily have jumped out of the car and snuck right back.


Frankly, he was lucky he didn't get a bullet in the head in Egypt and end up buried in some shallow grave out in the desert.

What you don't know is that an American can get away with murder in Egypt. Especially one well-connected with local community, as the cops could tell I was. Had I been an Egyptian, things would have fared far worse for me. Yeah, I was taking very dangerous action, but I'd lived in Egypt for well over a year and knew how to play my cards.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I'm not sure where you're going with this but you are aware how this story ends right? It was kinda in the news for a while. (spoiler: the dissidents won, and the police joined in)

No, actually, this wasn't the revolt in Cairo, this was the simmering Bedouin revolt in North Sinai, which is far from over. However, last I heard, the Egyptian authorities have had to make some concessions and have given some sort of official recognition to one of the militia leaders. I'm sorry I can't give less sketchy information than that. And it looks like very little of substance is coming to fruition from the revolt in Cairo... they just had some bullshit trial of cops who killed and tortured protesters, and the courts let them go. The people responded with more protests, and the cops responded in turn with more violence.

[tenni]

"I've never been to Canada, so I'll have to take your word for it, of course. I have heard at least one contrary opinion, "

Things are not perfect here for bisexuals and G&L by any means of examining the situation. There is homophobia and probably biphobia here. There are breakouts of bigotry and that is increasing. I didn't realize it until Slip mentioned it but we do not talk about sexuality a lot one on one. We have had promoted the thoughts of multi ethnic acceptance and tolerance of differences formally under government multi cultural society policies...some successes and failures. That is winding down now.

[Darkside2009]

I'm not sure where you're going with this but you are aware how this story ends right? It was kinda in the news for a while. (spoiler: the dissidents won, and the police joined in)

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I would suggest you read back through his previous posts from the time he was in Egypt, before deciding whether or not his advice is sound.

As to his claim that I lied in my previous post, I'm sure there are others on here who can confirm that he gave explicit directions to both his home and his place of business, together with photos and phone numbers on his profile. His house, if I remember correctly was white with a blue gate, a photograph was supplied. There was also a few personal photos of him, just in case they got confused.

Not exactly, James Bond, or Che Guevara. More the Muppet from Manhatten. If he thinks the Egyptian Security Services, were not aware of his moves then he is even more naive than I believe him to be.

[Darkside2009]

Quote from Lost...

'Coming out as bi is a lot safer than getting involved in guerilla warfare.'

I take it you have heard of the case of Matthew Shepard, the young student who was tortured and brutally murdered near Laramie, Wyoming, for the simple 'crime' of being Gay, and of being in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time?

Simplistic notions such as yours, serve to get people injured and killed.

[slipnslide]

No, actually, this wasn't the revolt in Cairo, this was the simmering Bedouin revolt in North Sinai, which is far from over. However, last I heard, the Egyptian authorities have had to make some concessions and have given some sort of official recognition to one of the militia leaders. I'm sorry I can't give less sketchy information than that. And it looks like very little of substance is coming to fruition from the revolt in Cairo... they just had some bullshit trial of cops who killed and tortured protesters, and the courts let them go. The people responded with more protests, and the cops responded in turn with more violence.

Ah, I understand now. But I still don't follow what it has to do with this conversation.

[slipnslide]

Quote from Lost...

'Coming out as bi is a lot safer than getting involved in guerilla warfare.'

I take it you have heard of the case of Matthew Shepard, the young student who was tortured and brutally murdered near Laramie, Wyoming, for the simple 'crime' of being Gay, and of being in the 'wrong' place at the 'wrong' time?

Simplistic notions such as yours, serve to get people injured and killed.

These situations cannot even be equated. This argument is so disrespectful and wrong. I'm at a loss for words.

[NotLostJustWandering]

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I would suggest you read back through his previous posts from the time he was in Egypt, before deciding whether or not his advice is sound.

As to his claim that I lied in my previous post, I'm sure there are others on here who can confirm that he gave explicit directions to both his home and his place of business, together with photos and phone numbers on his profile. His house, if I remember correctly was white with a blue gate, a photograph was supplied. There was also a few personal photos of him, just in case they got confused.

Not exactly, James Bond, or Che Guevara. More the Muppet from Manhatten. If he thinks the Egyptian Security Services, were not aware of his moves then he is even more naive than I believe him to be.

Dude, you just don't know the Egyptians, let alone the Egyptian police. I can understand why you think that posting directions to my house on my Web site would be a security risk, but it's hard to connect the dots when you can't read or write. My best friend among the Bedouin, a very successful drug dealer, was released from prison by sheer accident, and then they just lost track of him. You have to go there and live amongst these people to begin to grasp the depth of their stupidity, and still, month after month, the profundity of the stupidity will continue to boggle your mind.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Ah, I understand now. But I still don't follow what it has to do with this conversation.

Well, nothing, really, but the thread has survived going off-topic for an amazing length of time for this site, hasn't it? We haven't even had a U.S. vs. Canada flame war yet, despite mentioning both countries. I think we covered our points and were started to repeat ourselves, anyway, so if this guy wants to try getting my goat with ad hominem attacks, I'm happy to let him take a shot.

[BiDaveDtown]

Thanks for your persepective Katja and Notlost.

Knowing myself a bit, I know that it is the more abstract aspect of when I feel that an injustice is happening that might bring myself to a point of acting or reacting. I can not still comprehend how if I were in a group of people that by identifying myself as bisexual that it would impact the larger issues that I see as societal and media based bi invisibility and bi erasure.

As an artist curator, I found myself in a position a few years back where a grant was obtained and as part of that grant there was to be a project involving GLBT. The person who wrote the grant was a real hum dinger and had twisted another curator's wish to do a project not necessarily GLBT based. Doing such a project, increased the possibility to get the grant. I stepped forward when no one else would do the project. I thought that it was important for the organization to do what it said that it was going to do. I knew that by stepping forward that I would bring attention to myself. Usually gay people do such projects and are quite political about it.

So, I stepped out and did the project. It was absolute hell. I experience all kinds of veiled attacks from the person who twisted the grant. At one point, I was threatened that the police would be called because of the sexual content of one of the videos. I asked an artist rights organization on what I should do if the police came to shut me down and charge me. I found it worthwhile to do the project and interesting except for all the attacks that were put on me. I became physically ill from the stress and caught some virus that you get while under stress. I considered taking the situation to a Human Rights Tribunal. Now, I still said nothing about my own sexuality though. I decided that if I went to the Tribunal that I would state that I was bisexual. Just by doing the project, I realized that people might consider me gay. I even worked with a GLBT Pride group to promote the video screening. They had never had such a screening happen. I attended one of their meetings and stated how I was being treated. I got applause. I guess they assumed that I was gay. So, I was visible but invisible?...lol I saw no reason to say what my sexuality was. I was doing something.

One final thing to point out. This is alternative culture when I write about my arts community that I belong to. I was looking at videos that are with a distributor(s) that deals with art videos and not mainstream videos. The fact that a video is about gender or sexuality increases it chance of being kept and available through this distributor. GUESS WHAT!!!! There was not ONE fricken bisexual video in their collection. Not one. Gay, lesbian and transgendered but not one bisexual art video in hundred of videos in their collection from the past thirty five years of art videos. I thought that well, maybe I should do one then...(I'm also represented by them) I still don't have a focus on what to do it about though. It would be extremely challenging for me to make such a video.(partially because of how I do not do linear video and partially because what to say). I somehow feel that I could latch on to what I perceive as societal injustice about bi invisibility and bi erasure. I still would not say I'm bi though...lol I'd let my actions speak. I haven't thought about doing such a video for awhile...makes my creative juices start to flow a bit...lol I still believe that my sexuality is my business.

I know ...I'm strange..lol
Anyway, thanks for your thread Notlost.

So why not make a video about bisexuality? Or make one about the societal injustice of bisexual invisibility and bisexual erasure?

If you make the video will you put it on youtube?

[tenni]

So why not make a video about bisexuality? Or make one about the societal injustice of bisexual invisibility and bisexual erasure?

If you make the video will you put it on youtube?


I probably would not put it on youtube because I am paid to buy or screen my video art. I've put documentation of my video installations on youtube or other higher quality sites for video art. I've not made one yet because I have not thought through the thesis, direction and style. My recent art practice deals with other issues and aesthetics. Presently, the thesis would more likely deal with bi invisibility and b i erasure. I do not understand it well enough to form a thesis.

[Darkside2009]

Ah, I understand now. But I still don't follow what it has to do with this conversation.

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The topic of the thread was why bisexuals should be visible. In Lost's judgment we should declare ourselves Bisexuals, if not for ourselves then for other people.

I pointed out how I believe his judgment was flawed and gave an example. His attitude could get someone seriously injured or even killed. There are many people who have received beatings and worse because they said the 'wrong' thing in the 'wrong' location.

Stupidity is no defence against a beating, or having a broken bottle jabbed in ones face, or worse. If he wishes to declare himself as Bi to whomsoever he wishes, that is fine by me. As to others, they should not rely on this man's judgment, but instead decide for themselves, when and to whom they wish to enlighten about their sexual preferences.

He compounds his lack of judgment by labelling the Egyptian people as stupid, he must think that is how Mubarak stayed in power for as long as he did.

From implying that I lied in one of my previous posts, he now admits the details were on his web site.

If I were making decisions about my life that had ramifications for others as well as myself, I would not be relying on the judgment of this man, or others like him. People are sensible enough to decide for themselves in whom they should confide, and when, given their individual circumstances.