Will and Grace

[JohnnyV]

I have to admit, I'm going to miss the show.

Does anyone else on here think that Will's really bi and he should marry Grace and get over it?

Anyone else think Grace and Karen really ought to have a lesbo affair?

J

[OralBradley]

I have to admit, I'm going to miss the show.

Does anyone else on here think that Will's really bi and he should marry Grace and get over it?

Anyone else think Grace and Karen really ought to have a lesbo affair?

J


Huh!!!

[glantern954]

If any character on that show is bi it is Karen. The actress who plays her is actually an out bisexual also.

I will miss it too. The first season or two were the best in my opinion though. Until the end it has kind of been at a stand still.

[Flounder1967]

I've always loved that show. I will miss it. Grace having a lesbo affair she would have to be very drunk. Well that's not much of stretch.

[JohnnyV]

Any thoughts on why the scriptwriters never thought to suggest any erotic tension between will and grace?

J

[glantern954]

They didn't want complaints from the gay community about destroying one of the few "gay" primetime characters.

[JohnnyV]

And why would that destroy Will if he ended up experiencing authentic desire for her?

J

[Driver 8]

I don't think it's so much that Will would be destroyed, as that he's a very visible gay character, and people in the community see him as educating straight people and teaching tolerance just by existing. If he's then portrayed as, somehow or other, not really gay, that could reasonably be interpreted as sending a message that gay men in general just need to meet the right woman.

Not saying I buy that argument, just that it's there. In contrast, when Rupert Everett made that wretched pic with Madonna a few years back, he was doing interviews saying you could be gay and have the occasional attaction to a woman; IIRC he said he'd be happy to sleep with Madonna himself.

[JohnnyV]

I don't think it's so much that Will would be destroyed, as that he's a very visible gay character, and people in the community see him as educating straight people and teaching tolerance just by existing. If he's then portrayed as, somehow or other, not really gay, that could reasonably be interpreted as sending a message that gay men in general just need to meet the right woman.

For me, that's exactly the rigid mindset among gay leaders that makes everybody so miserable. I'd say, forget the message, just tell us a story that's inspiring and unpredictable. Having Will suddenly feel something for Grace and turn out bi, for me, would make far more sense as a grand finale, than having him continue to pine away as a castrato while he watches Grace take the baby away to the straight man who got her pregnant.

But then again, I'm from the planet Pluto, or at least that's how I feel sometimes when I deal with these pop culture questions.

J

[APMountianMan]

I can see wanting a bi character represented. That's fine. But changing a established gay character bi is the same to me as a straight person telling me to just make up my mind. Let's not confuse our straight friends anymore than they already are. straight is straight, gay is gay, bi is bi. Let's have more true representation of all sexuality, not a muddied mess.

:cool: :2cents:

[texasman6172003]

Hi Y'all. Ito wacthed the show. Don't know why they never did anything with the women. But i do agree that Will was gay. Thats the only thing i thought i knew about for sure on the show,lol...

[JohnnyV]

I can see wanting a bi character represented. That's fine. But changing a established gay character bi is the same to me as a straight person telling me to just make up my mind. Let's not confuse our straight friends anymore than they already are. straight is straight, gay is gay, bi is bi. Let's have more true representation of all sexuality, not a muddied mess.

:cool: :2cents:

AP Mountain Man,

I don't think bisexuality is a muddied mess. And I think it would be good to have a bi character somewhere in pop culture, considering how many gay and lesbian characters there are nowadays. Wherever they appear, they will inevitably have to appear in a plot where they pursue one gender for part of the storyline, then pursue another gender. So any way you introduce bisexuality into a show, it's going to be "muddied."

J

[APMountianMan]

AP Mountain Man,

I don't think bisexuality is a muddied mess. And I think it would be good to have a bi character somewhere in pop culture, considering how many gay and lesbian characters there are nowadays. Wherever they appear, they will inevitably have to appear in a plot where they pursue one gender for part of the storyline, then pursue another gender. So any way you introduce bisexuality into a show, it's going to be "muddied."

J


I am saying I would rather see openly bi character as opposed to taking an established gay character and making him bi. To me, taking a gay character and making him bi brings the "You see, he was just confused about his sexuality" nuts out of the woodwork. The next thing that will happen is the once gay character will be a once bi character with his sexual confusion dealt with. No, I am not confused by my sexuality, and I don't want bisexuals portrayed as dealing with sexual confusion.

:cool: :2cents:

[FSJeepguy]

It was a funny show for the first few season, jumped thd shark when Grace got married and never recovered.


I think Jack and Karen were the best part of the show, but give props to "Grace" wonderful comedic timing and funny.

[JohnnyV]

To me, taking a gay character and making him bi brings the "You see, he was just confused about his sexuality" nuts out of the woodwork. The next thing that will happen is the once gay character will be a once bi character with his sexual confusion dealt with.


You're right. I think the challenge is for us to stop trying to prevent those "you see, he was just confused about his sexuality" nuts from saying what they are going to say. They'll say it no matter what the story line is. Whoever's creative needs to create characters that can represent a wide range of people without writing defensively.

J

[APMountianMan]

You're right. I think the challenge is for us to stop trying to prevent those "you see, he was just confused about his sexuality" nuts from saying what they are going to say. They'll say it no matter what the story line is. Whoever's creative needs to create characters that can represent a wide range of people without writing defensively.

J


You are a gentleman and a scholar. I forgot that you are in upstate NY. I was at Cornell a week or so ago. Would have loved to have met in person.

:cool:

[Mimi]

I have to admit, I'm going to miss the show.
me too. it was so smart and funny and i loved that they made will's and jack's sexuality so matter-of-fact.


Does anyone else on here think that Will's really bi and he should marry Grace and get over it?
no. i think they both need bfs and to stop being so joined-at-the-hip. it wouldn't make sense to all of a sudden "make him bi", for the same reason APmountainman has said but also b/c that would keep them glued together.


Anyone else think Grace and Karen really ought to have a lesbo affair?
no. grace is so completely straight. karen, though, has been kinda ambiguous on the show, which i love, because she keeps you guessing. and yes, she is bi in real life and i think she's a cutie.

mimi :flag1:

[JohnnyV]

So the consensus I'm getting is that they should do a spinoff with just Karen. That's a great idea!

The premise: Grace, Will, Harry Connick Jr., and Jack disappear in a strange alien abduction, leaving Karen and Rosario alone.

Karen moves in with a lipstick lesbian half her age, named Destiny. They do 3-somes with a serious of handsome men, until they get into a small quarrel, which they get over.... and I bet we could draw that out for a couple seasons.

Introduce a side character, named Johnny: a handsome, thirtysomething bisexual male professor who teaches mythology at Columbia University and boasts a Steve Reeves physique. He gets Karen pregnant -- oh wait, that's my life, except I don't teach at an Ivy League school, I'm getting confused.

We could call a Karen spinoff -- "Karen".

J

[Driver 8]

I'm reminded of Alison Bechdel's overall wonderful comic, Dykes To Watch Out For. Overall I do love it, but she's always been weird about bisexuals. First a minor character came out as bi and was never seen again - but there were a couple of strips where the lesbian-identified women trashed her for it. Realistic, I guess, especially considering that was ten years ago, but you can hardly call it balanced (and Bechdel does seem to go to a lot of trouble to have characters who are both identifiable individuals and representative of typical types in the community, and to give air time to several sides of an issue.)

Then she proposed making another regular character bisexual - a woman with no politics, who'd never been shown with a girlfriend, and whose main personality trait was "flaky and self-absorbed." Gosh, thanks.

Interestingly, though, that character did eventually come out as bi ... but in the meantime she was shown as having been politically inivolved all the time, and given a girlfriend. I know for a fact Bechdel got letters from bisexual readers about the original idea, and I wonder if these developments might have been meant to address those exact points.

Now, though, Sparrow has a baby with her boyfriend ... so there's a bisexual character, but you never see her addressing the kinds of questions you'd expect. Lots of bi women who formerly identified as lesbian end up wondering where they stand with that community, or face hostility from it, or question their own identities; but you'd never know it from the strip.

Now, I know it's unfair to ask a lesbian woman to do bi activism. And what Bechdel has done is a huge improvement over what she used to do (I remember one older strip where a character pointed to the marriage of one of Navratilova's ex-girlfriends as a catastrophe on the scale of global warming.) But at the same time, I can't help looking at this and thinking that we see this character all the time, and she's in the same position as so many bi women ... and the strip constantly places the conflicts of GLBT life in the context of these particular characters' lives ... so why the silence about bi issues?

[Mimi]

i have a solution: create more bi media!!! and it has to come from a bi perspective, written by the people and for the people!

anyone want to start a bi TV show, comic strip, magazine, movie??????

mimi :flag1:

[JohnnyV]

Hey Mimi,

I'm totally in support of the idea!!! Sign me up!!!

J

[DÆMØN]

So the consensus I'm getting is that they should do a spinoff with just Karen. That's a great idea!

The premise: Grace, Will, Harry Connick Jr., and Jack disappear in a strange alien abduction, leaving Karen and Rosario alone.

Karen moves in with a lipstick lesbian half her age, named Destiny. They do 3-somes with a serious of handsome men, until they get into a small quarrel, which they get over.... and I bet we could draw that out for a couple seasons.

Introduce a side character, named Johnny: a handsome, thirtysomething bisexual male professor who teaches mythology at Columbia University and boasts a Steve Reeves physique. He gets Karen pregnant -- oh wait, that's my life, except I don't teach at an Ivy League school, I'm getting confused.

We could call a Karen spinoff -- "Karen".

J

I'm HØØKED ! Reel me in ! I'm all for KARENS' WØRLD ! Bad enough The Will
& Grace Series Finale, left me in a pile of wet kleenex. Touching! Vewwy, Vewwy, Touching! Imma MISS that show ! However, deep in my psyche lurks the sure knowledge the entire 8 years worth of Will & Grace can be had from the local DVD series sets and collectors editions with no expenses spared.

[Gemini25]

i have a solution: create more bi media!!! and it has to come from a bi perspective, written by the people and for the people!

anyone want to start a bi TV show, comic strip, magazine, movie??????

mimi :flag1:

This is a Fantastic idea! Sign me up as well. Where do you go to even start something like this? Sound's like it could be very interesting.
Michael :bibounce:

[JohnnyV]

Can anyone tell me what the last episode was like? I was busy at the hospital that night, so I didn't get to see the finale.

J

[cassie]

I missed the last episode too!! Anyone have details???

[wildangel]

I absolutely LOVED the last episode!!! It was the best series finale I've seen in a long time. They all seem to try to tie up loose ends in one day and it just can't be done. It definitely was better than the series finale for That 70's Show which I watched the hour before.

SPOILER ALERT!!!!

I don't want to give it all away to those who taped the show or are planning on waiting for the re-runs of it, which are soon to follow. Therefore, I'll only say that Will and Grace tie up loose ends over the course of twenty years in a one hour episode. It ended very appropriately.

I sure will miss those two...