A Kick in the Stomach [Archive]

CherryBlossom74

May 11, 2006, 4:08 AM

Ok, last time I started a post I got NO responses. Here is Sean's last try at seeing what people think.

Since coming out as Bi to many people, I have felt repeatedly treated like I am an aberration. Meanwhile I've seen Adrienne deal with a much greater level of acceptance than I have been met with. At work she can wear her bi-pride bracelets without fear or repercussion or mistreatment. I on the other hand have received NO ok in that regard, in fact just today I was forced to watch my boss trash the local free GLBT magazine on the racks at Whole Foods(a natural food market) in favor of putting up his own stuff in its place. He then went on to state "Look at this Sean...we don't want to promote that kind of lifestyle around here, don't you think?"

I was torn, but merely frowned at him for doing that and looking to me for acceptance. I wanted to say something...I really did...but he can take away the job I have worked so hard to maintain. He knew that I didn't agree with his actions even though he doesn't know my sexuality. As much as I wanted to take it out of the recycler and put it back where someone could read it...I daren't since he takes home the recycling to send off in his personal bins.

Any fantasy I had of coming out is dashed there.

Our Chiropractor is Catholic and would refuse to keep adjusting me if he knew, but he knows Adrienne is and says nothing. He's confided in me that he disdains the Teletubbies for teaching Gayness to children, and I vehemently argued against that. He's refused to help gays and believes that there is no such thing as bisexuality. He's a nice guy but misguided. Since I have no insurance I have to keep quiet, or lose his help.

Hell, just recently someone close to me even asked why a pedophile would find children exciting? I asked why the hell they thought I should know. Their reasoning was frightening: "You're sexually weird like them...so you should know."

It sucked the wind out of my lungs like a kick in the stomach, made me feel about an inch tall. The world sees me as a deviant on par with a pedophile. If I had a gun in my hand at the time I don't know if I would have shot the woman or myself....or both! My sense of self worth was dropped to an all new low.

My god! I feel like I am being boxed in ever tighter and tighter, even being seperated from Adrienne as she gains acceptance where I cannot. Comments like this never come her way. I am not saying she doesn't have fears and issues, but she certanly has more of an inroad on society than I will ever be able to hope for.

Should I just go back into the closet and wait for a better day to come when it's safer for me to be ME?

BI BOYTOY

May 11, 2006, 4:40 AM

hey their cherry nice to meet you. i do feel for you. at also angers me to hear that women , said you were somewhat like the pedophil. THAT FUCKING BITCH. we are no way like those sickos we like both adult sexes. we arte not sick people. well i got to stop their on that or i will just go of. iu know how you feel i also have inlaws that are like that.one of them is even a bisexual woman that has a girl lover with ok from her husbund. and she says its ok for her but no other woman or man.so im confused on that one,ithingk alof us had some simaler situations and it is never aesy to deal with. but i will say do not let your self worth go down. and just remember the very same people that berate you the most are most probably in the closet them selves. :2cents: :2cents: oh ya society says it ok for woman and not man .so that is why the girl can come out while it is harder for you :bibounce: :bibounce: :bibounce:

julie

May 11, 2006, 5:07 AM

...how very sad that you should experience such (double standard) prejudice Sean :(

...I guess just holding on to knowing and accepting who you are... and recognising that the prejudice you face is just that..FEAR AND IGNORANCE.. is really all you can do and be Sean.. i wonder if the so called 'acceptance' Adrienne commands is equally oppressive..? as if she is invisible almost.. she is female so her expression of her sexual preferences are of no consequence in this 'mans world'.. except maybe for male titillation?..

..we have no power over others opinions of us.. and all psychological theorists tend to agree that insight cannot be forced on anyone :rolleyes: .. so sadly, rather than waste energy trying to justify who you are, and letting these outside forces create division between you and Adrienne..who is after all your closest ally here.. maybe the most dignified way forward for you both is to delight in your sexuality where it is safe to do so..and exercise discretion in situations where it may work against you..such as at work, with the chiropracter etc..?

i believe this is true for all oppressed folk regardless of race, gender, physical abilities etc.. and the most destructive thing anyone can do is react defensively or start to believe the lies underpinning the fears and prejugement being expressed... Stand firm in your knowledge of who you are Sean... and remember those who judge are less enlightened than you.. maybe one day they will understand, but for now it is not your duty to teach those who have no desire to learn.

i wish you and Adrienne well

Julie :female:

canuckotter

May 11, 2006, 7:01 AM

What I found was that when I first came out, I wanted everyone to know... I wanted to shout it from the rooftops... It was the main concern in my life. Since then, I've been getting less and less concerned about being open. It probably helps that I'm a man in a monogamous relationship with a woman, so there's nothing to hide... I just don't bother revealing everything. If it comes up, I don't deny it, but I don't see any need to volunteer that information most of the time.

When I do run into someone who says something stupid, I say something when I can (and it's appropriate) and keep my mouth shut when I can't. The way I look at it, the world's full of incredibly stupid people, if I corrected people on every ridiculous thing they said or did I wouldn't have time to breathe, much less eat or sleep. I'm a pretty calm guy though, so I rarely have much trouble letting stupidity slide if I think confronting it isn't the best idea.

Doesn't mean it's not frustrating, of course. Even my family's made some ridiculously stupid comments from time to time and it annoys me to have to bite my tongue. I guess I just have to deal with it less than you do, and I have more experience ignoring it when that's the best choice...

As for the double standard, julie's right... Adrienne coming out is quite likely regarded as a phase... She's likely just being ignored, to be honest. If she's still telling people she's bi in twenty years, then they might start to believe her, and then she might run into a lot more of the nonsense you're dealing with.

glantern954

May 11, 2006, 8:54 AM

Many gay people are not even out at work. If your job and chiropractic care are more important than these aquantances in your life knowing something VERY personal about you, there is nothing wrong with that.

Being out helps our visibility issue, but being unemployed can ruin your life.

The next time your Chiropractor mentions bisexuality, you could always politely argue anything moronic he says in the context of standing up for your wife. Then again, his religeon might prevent him from caring about your arguments.

jedinudist

May 11, 2006, 9:39 AM

I hear you. I'm am facing similar things myself. I have seen it mentioned in another thread here how female bisexuality seems to be more readily accepted than male bisexuality especially depending on where you live. From personal experience, I think it is in many areas. Unfortunately though, all too often bisexual females are viewed by heterosexual males as something for their entertainment. There's tons of pornography out there with FFM action that is viewed by heterosexual men and some heterosexual woman; but not very much MMF that is viewed by anyone of a heterosexual orientation. I have heard my "straight" (what, we're "crooked"? ) friends fantasize about getting some "bi-chick" action and even mention they wish their girlfriends or wives would bring a girlfriend home for some fun; but when asked (I passed it off as a joke) if they would participate in some MMF action at their girlfriend's or wife’s request, they all acted physically ill at the idea.

I myself still feel very guilty for not openly declaring my sexual orientation and putting a Bi-pride sticker or flag on my truck. However, I know now that this is not the prudent thing for me to do because of where I live. It would subject my truck to vandalism and me and my wife to harassment and even attack. It would cost me my job at most places, and it would be legal here for someone to fire me for my sexual orientation.

I think one reason male bisexuality is much less accepted than female (not that it's a cakewalk for them either, just that they are usually somewhat more accepted in general than males) is due to social stereotypes and social conditioning.

Before anyone letter bombs me, I am not saying I agree with the following, just that we all know it was what was taught to one degree or another in the past.

Men are supposed to be strong. The bread winners. The warriors. The decision makers. Strong men (which we're all supposed to be) are able to win the women they need to satisfy their sexual needs. Quite literally, when I was younger and in therapy, I was told that homosexuality was seen as much as a weakness on the part of the man as it was an illness. Ergo, the only reason a man would have sex with another man would be because he was too weak to "win" himself a suitable female partner or "his sissy ass is too afraid of women" so he assumes the role of a woman himself- identifying himself as a weaker sex.

And yes, women were long described as the "weaker sex" (Ladies, those of us on here know better :) ) Men were here to protect them, direct them, mate with them, and because they were weaker- be served by them. If the weaker sex had some same sex interaction of a sexual nature, well, that could only be expected of them. They are weak. All manner of excuses would be made or the issue would be buried and the woman would be reprimanded or corrected by her male superior (husband, father, etc.) Anyone needing proof of this need only look in American society of the 1900 - 1960 period.

Male bisexuals and gay men are more often looked at as "sexual deviants" than females in many places. I too am very alarmed that someone automatically associated you with pedophiles simply because you are bisexual and thus, "sexually weird like them". That person needs education, but not from you. If they honestly said such a screwed up thing to you, then their opinion of you is absolutely terrible and they won't take anything you say seriously if it concerns how normal bisexuality is. I would honestly avoid anyone who felt that way about me or bisexuals and gays in general.

In my humble opinion- your boss is an asshole. The world is full of them. I won't try to guess why he is that way, but it's obvious from what you wrote that he is. Obviously, he has an issue with anyone who isn't heterosexual, so I wouldn't try to educate him, debate him, etc. He can fire you, and from the sound of it, you wouldn't get a decent reference either.

Don't say anything to your chiropractor either. To hell with his views. Don't let the subject come up and your visits to him will be more endurable until your situation improves to the point where you can go to a different one. Smile to yourself and be glad you’re getting the help you need and that he doesn't even know he is helping the very people he has openly refused to help- you!

You wrote -

My god! I feel like I am being boxed in ever tighter and tighter, even being separated from Adrienne as she gains acceptance where I cannot. Comments like this never come her way. I am not saying she doesn't have fears and issues, but she certainly has more of an inroad on society than I will ever be able to hope for.

I don't know if you two are BF/GF, engaged, etc. - but know this- Society can only interfere with your relationship if you allow it. It's the two of you together against anything that comes against either of you. Don't resent her being more accepted, it’s not her fault. Instead, be glad that the one you love is not having to deal with as much as you are.

Some beautiful day, we will all be able to be open or "out" with our true selves in public. But that will require societal change, which history has shown is slow to happen. But it will happen.

Man, there are still parts of this world where women can not vote, drive, or even have a single square inch of their flesh visible when in public. They are viewed as property instead of people. We still have a long way to go. It absolutely sucks that you are being subjected to all this, but know that you have friends here!!! Anytime you need to, just log in. Surely someone else will be here and be willing to chat. Please don't let the assholes of the world do this to you. I've been far down that road and am still trying to recover. The best help I have gotten is from my wife and from this site.

If you ever need to vent, or a shoulder to lean on- we're here.

JohnnyV

May 11, 2006, 1:57 PM

Dear Cherry Blossom,

I am sorry that I and others didn't reply to your first post... please understand that it happens to all the regulars on here from time to time. It's impossible to guess which threads spark a lively debate and which fall dead in the water.

About your recent difficulties after coming out, I'd like to echo what some other members said on here. As hard as these reactions may feel, you are lucky that you have a loving relationship and that you are confident enough in yourself to feel safe being out to so many people. As Glantern mentioned, most bis haven't come out to their co-workers, a lot haven't told their partners, and quite a few don't have lovers. You're in a slim elite for your openness and current romantic arrangement.

I know how infuriating small-minded people can be, but can I suggest that you remember the old adage, to win the war you have to lose a few battles? Channel your energy toward a positive struggle for bisexuals. Let these minor comments roll off your back and instead advocate for bisexuals and gays through political activism. Why not put up a website and write articles and post them?

Other than that, remember that you have supportive fellow human beings on this website, and the world is changing, ever so slowly, for the better.

Love,
J

Whippersnap

May 11, 2006, 5:49 PM

Cherry, Don't let the two asses get to you. Most likely the two of them gave more head to some of their high school or college friends than a 2 dollar hooker. People like them have something to hide, and they are most likely afraid that someone will figure them out or they are afraid that they would love it if they tried it. The only person that means a damn thing to me is my wife and she knows and is understanding about it. As far as I am concerned I do not advertise that I am bi to my friends or anyone else. If there is a male I like then I will drop the hint and see where it goes.

Don't beat yourself up over the talk of morons, you don't have to defend your likes/dislikes or actions unless it hurts someone, and most bis do not hurt others, we pleasure them and ourselves. Good luck and let the negative roll off of you.

Lorcan

May 11, 2006, 10:53 PM

I'm glad to see this thread. A lot of woman have pointed out that bi-woman are not actually more accepted than bi-men, but actually seen as entertainment for men's pleasure. And that's true.

HOWEVER

I can go to work (at a redneck workplace) wearing my bi beads and be openly bi. My husband doesn't dare do this for the sake of his job...perhaps his own LIFE. They will lynch you for being bi and male. That's why I agree that is more acceptable for woman.

I'm sorry Cherryblossom that you were compared to a pedophile, and that you have to risk your job and your life to be you. I guess us bi-females should do all we can to stick up for the bi-males. :flag3:

Driver 8

May 12, 2006, 8:31 AM

I can go to work (at a redneck workplace) wearing my bi beads
I don't feel the bi beads prove anything. In all my years I've met one (1) non-bisexual who knew what the colors meant, and she worked at a GLBT bookstore that stocked bi pride items.

My husband doesn't dare do this for the sake of his job...perhaps his own LIFE. They will lynch you for being bi and male.
I realize there are a lot of risks to being out (though I will point out that lesbian and bisexual women are on the receiving end of violence, too). However, I've often noticed that people who aren't out do not have the most realistic ideas of what would happen if they were. How often I've heard "I'd lose my job, I'd lose my family, I'd lose all my friends" - even in cases where the person has gay coworkers, family, and friends.

I'm not saying these things never happen; they do. I'm not saying everyone should be out all the time - we all have to make our choices about the possible risks and benefits. But I will say that comparing what's actually happened to someone who is out with what's imagined by someone who isn't is a case of apples and oranges.

JohnnyV

May 12, 2006, 9:00 AM

Maybe it isn't a question of female and male bi difficulties being greater or lesser... probably that the kinds of biphobia each gender experiences differ.

Bi females probably face greater hostility from lesbians than bi men do from gay men. That's my educated guess though it would be hard to find statistics on it. On gay.com, gay guys seem more than willing to talk to me because they like married men; sometimes it kind of bothers me. Most lesbians I've known hate married women.

But then again, bi men are considered a big HIV risk whereas bi women aren't, so there are health discrimination issues that are harder for males.

And the health risks are in fact greater for guys. Half of HIV infections occur in men who have sex with men, while a very small percentage, I think around 25% when you work the numbers out, of HIV infections occur in women who have sex with men. About 0% of transmissions occur from woman to woman. Still around 7-8% of HIV transmissions in the US occur from female to male.

Females probably face more sexism or sexual harassment at work than the average male of any kind would, so there's a good chance that bi women have more struggles with their career than bi men do.

Since most violence occurs at home between people who know each other, and women are more likely to be harmed in that scenario, bi women are probably at greater risk for violence than bi men.

Then again, most school bullying involves boys targeting boys, and a recent study found that 78% of 12-17 year olds in the US in 2004 had witnessed firsthand an act of bullying against a child suspected of being gay. Bi men have to deal with more in-your-face hostility on a day to day basis, probably, as a legacy of the bullying that everyone learns on the schoolyard.

But in terms of potential partners, bi women are at a disadvantage... The Kinsey report of 1948 found that 48% of males have the potential to be attracted to other men. The 1953 report found that only about 25% of females have that potential (if I remember the graph correctly; I saw it 3 weeks ago.) Bi men have a lot more sexual options than bi women, simply because twice as many men as women are bi.

Most recent research also shows that marriage makes men happier and women more depressed. So bisexual males are at another advantage, insofar as IF they are married, they are more likely to be happier anyway.

But on the other side, most research shows that unmarried men in their late 30s on are much unhappier than married men, married women, or unmarried women. Largely because males in most psychological studies prove less capable of taking care of themselves alone as they get older. Which might mean that bi men face certain difficulties that bi women don't. The consequences for bi men of a divorce or loss of his female partner are slightly greater than the consequences for a bi woman, which might explain our common perception that bi married men are more secretive than bi married women (don't know if that's true.) If this point of difference is correct the way I've guessed it, I can't blame biphobia as much as men's rampant incompetence with domestic arrangements -- maybe if we could clean up after ourselves and live on a budget, we wouldn't be so in need of a female partner!

Anyways, these are all thoughts on the debate. I think it's probably a toss-up between bi men and women. Depends which angle you are coming from.

J

Sparks

May 12, 2006, 1:46 PM

jedinudist

May 12, 2006, 5:34 PM

In a perefect world, out would be out. Although it may sooth the soul to be out, for most folks this isn't possible (especially at work). Never ever poop where you sleep. That means never have relations with coworkers regadless of their orintataion. :2cents:

are you saying relations are poop?

LOL- sorry, couldn't resist.

Good advice though for those who don't know it!!

CherryBlossom74

May 13, 2006, 3:36 AM

Then again, most school bullying involves boys targeting boys, and a recent study found that 78% of 12-17 year olds in the US in 2004 had witnessed firsthand an act of bullying against a child suspected of being gay. Bi men have to deal with more in-your-face hostility on a day to day basis, probably, as a legacy of the bullying that everyone learns on the schoolyard.

That would actually be a paragraph that targets my life e xperiences perfectly. In fact, I was wearing a "Gay" reputation unknowingly UNTIL they tried to beat me senseless over and over. It explained why everyone avoided me for 2 out of 4 years of High School, and I couldn't get a date to save my life.

If it weren't for me learning to defend myself well, I might not have survived the HS years. I'm not worried about physical violence against me..I can deal with that. Dead is an end to troubles too. And I am not jealous of Adrienn's acceptance, never said I was. I wasnted to point out how unfair it's been.

Maybe her acceptance comes at being some straight guys wet dream, but at least she's accepted. Also, her office has one lesbian working there that has become fasts friends with her. Gay men , on and offline, have been curious but nothing more wanted from me than sexual titilation...one night stands...uncomfortable requests...then name calling.

Perhaps my experiences have been strange and out of the norm, perhaps I am too sensitive. I'd even buy that I may be doing things wrong...but I don't want to come out to the world, nor do I want to shout it from the top of a flagpole. I want to be me...but most importantly I am absolutely TIRED of feeling afraid to be ME.

Do you understand what I am saying?

In coming out I seemed to give the world even more reasons to dislike me, to hate and despise me. Hell, even in our own bisexual community I am afraid to meet people. On a dating site we found where we try to hook up, nothing but the worst events occurred.

If we didn't split up for the gay/lesbian people, we couldn't meet. They wanted to get to know only the same sex in the pair we represent.

The Bisexual men were predatory, didn't care if we got to know them, just wanted sex sex Sex SEX SEX, right now rightnow rightnowrightnowrightnow, gimme gimme gimme! Didn't care from whom!

The Bisexual women all wanted a woman, so once again demanded we split to meet. But at least they wanted to get to know Adrienne I suppose.

We met ONE polite man, one only. And he was straight. That's not to say there weren't men there doing their best to hook up and be anything but demanding, there were. LOADS of them.

So far it's been a pretty scary and eye-opening event. For th emost part we've just hung tightly together and thumbed our noses at the whole thing as being an an online aberration. People can't all be like this, people can't always want to jump in the sack and get to know you later....right?

Anyway, Long Beach Pride Festival is coming up and we are concerned whether or not we should be there. The article: My Girlfriend's Boyfriend (http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296) made us realize that we may get a not so nice reception there if we went to it, or at least hear snide remarks and snickering. After all, it's not a "Bisexual" event, it GLBT and we are recent add ons. We nedd to feel welcomed and wanted.

"We" as in Adrienne and I do. She feels the double standard against me as much as I do. I feel her acceptance through hetero-male fantasies is demeaning and based on the Porn Industry and not on being seen as herself.

That's the main reason I started this thread, you see. It's because this whole realization of our sexuality..and finding the courage to say it to ourselves and each other...has lead us to one emotional blow after another, one Kick in the Stomach after another. It's felt like we have no one to turn to so far, and when we came here we didn't know how to fit in. Fears from the dating site also spilled over so we became inivisible, popping up only now and again.

Because our reception had pretty bad we felt, and still feel, like that line Elrond says in Lord of the Rings,"...our list of allies grows thin."

Regardless of the reason we feel kicked down, or pushed away...we need to hear your thoughts...but most importantly we need your support and advice.

Your love, if you can spare it.

(This post was also written by Sean. Sorry for sharing accounts, if that discomfits people.)

canuckotter

May 13, 2006, 9:32 AM

(Sorry, going point-by-point on things I want to touch on... I hope this doesn't get too long!)

If it weren't for me learning to defend myself well, I might not have survived the HS years.I went to a redneck high school... Luckily I avoided beatings -- people were too scared of my bro to try anything with me :) -- but all of the gay/bi/lesbian folks in the HS were very, very deeply closeted, out of a very real fear of going through exactly what you did.

I sometimes think that HS is proof that God exists and has a really, really vicious sense of humour.

Gay men , on and offline, have been curious but nothing more wanted from me than sexual titilation...one night stands...uncomfortable requests...then name calling. I've heard of that quite a bit, but never experienced it myself. Many of my closest friends are gay men who have absolutely no problem with bisexuals. Sadly, I think your experiences are more typical... :(

I want to be me...but most importantly I am absolutely TIRED of feeling afraid to be ME.

Do you understand what I am saying? Absolutely. In my case, I'm lucky in that I'm able to be fairly open about who and what I am... Even many of my coworkers know and don't have a problem with it. But there are situations where I still have to hide it, and even with people who intellectually accept that I'm not straight, I generally have to be very careful what I say to avoid making them uncomfortable. It's frustrating as hell some days... I feel like grabbing certain people by the shoulders and shaking them and screaming, "This is who I am, if you don't like it you can go to hell!" Since that's not an option... life goes on. It's not that I want to shout it from the rooftops, I just don't want to have to be so damn careful in hiding it a lot of the time.

If we didn't split up for the gay/lesbian people, we couldn't meet. They wanted to get to know only the same sex in the pair we represent. To a certain extent, you can't blame 'em. A gay man is interested in the male of the pair, a lesbian interested in the female. Neither of them has any interest in the other gender, and may in fact be turned off by the presence of someone of the opposite sex. I know that of the gay men I know personally (a pretty good-sized group) the only one who'd be able to do anything in bed with me and my wife isn't completely gay... He's about a 6 on the scale.

The Bisexual men were predatory, didn't care if we got to know them, just wanted sex sex Sex SEX SEX, right now rightnow rightnowrightnowrightnow, gimme gimme gimme! Didn't care from whom! I met one of those, as one of a big group of friends and friends-of-friends who went out to the bar. I found out he was sleeping on his friend's floor (in from out of town) and made the mistake of offering to let him crash on the couch at my place, and then was too drunk to effectively tell him "no"... :mad:

It's because this whole realization of our sexuality..and finding the courage to say it to ourselves and each other...has lead us to one emotional blow after another, one Kick in the Stomach after another. Well then, as one bisexual to another, let me just say: Hey, great to meet you! :tong:

It's not easy being bi. (Or green, but that's a tangent, so I'll stop that right now. ;) ) It's not as bad as it used to be, and there are plenty of folks who have it worse, but life would be a lot easier for us if we were all straight. Not better, mind you...

I've certainly not taken the easy road through life. I have been attacked because of my perceived sexuality, and it's cost me friends. It made my life miserable through most of HS. But in the end, I've come out of it all much stronger and more patient than most; taking the easier road might have saved me a lot of hassle, but I never would have learned some of the lessons that have made me who I am. And it took a while, but I've found some absolutely fantastic people that I wouldn't have otherwise met, including my wife.

So... Is it hard sometimes? Hell yeah. Is it worth it? Hell yeah.

Regardless of the reason we feel kicked down, or pushed away...we need to hear your thoughts...but most importantly we need your support and advice. Consider yourselves supported. :) And I'd be happy to offer advice, although you'll definitely want to take it with a grain of salt (or ten). ;)

JohnnyV

May 13, 2006, 5:23 PM

Cherry,

Like the last person who posted, I haven't come across many gay men who are hostile to me for being married. I have come across more lesbians who are hostile to bisexual women.

I've heard many gay men snicker about bi guys really being "in denial" and whatnot, but on a person-to-person level they tend to support me because they want me to be happy.

Sometimes people are bad with categories even when they're good with people. It helps to back away from gay v. bi v. straight discussions, and frame everything very personally in terms of who is in your life, what you and your wife are looking for ... etc., without getting into labels. Gays tend to respond better to that, I think. As do bis and straights. All of us much prefer to talk to people than to generic abstractions.

About going to gay/lesbian events and feeling a little out of place, I can tell you about the time my wife and I went to a lesbian picnic without knowing it was a lesbian picnic. We were just going with a friend who happened to be lesbian, and our friend didn't tell us it was an all-dyke affair, or that we were supposed to bring a serious dish. So we were the only straight people there and, on top of it, the only people who came with nothing but a bottle of Diet Sierra Mist.

"We're lesbians," One spikey-haired woman told us. "We don't believe in diet soda."

My wife and I just laughed it off and played frisbee, then took a long walk. You can't let people's attitudes get to you.

Blessings!
J

Lorcan

May 13, 2006, 5:30 PM

Maybe her acceptance comes at being some straight guys wet dream, but at least she's accepted.

If we didn't split up for the gay/lesbian people, we couldn't meet. They wanted to get to know only the same sex in the pair we represent.

The Bisexual men were predatory, didn't care if we got to know them, just wanted sex sex Sex SEX SEX,

People can't all be like this, people can't always want to jump in the sack and get to know you later....right?

Do you understand what I am saying?

I do well understand what you're saying. We have be kicked in the stomach a few times as well. I know what your saying about gay/lesbian people... they tend to segregate even for purely social meetings.

About that pride parade.... i've been to a couple of them as a Male/Female couple and didn't hear any snickers about it. Of course they could have thought that i was straight.... there are seemingly straight couples walking around at these things. Gotta get me a Bisexual shirt next time and "rub it in their face" so to speak.

And to rephase what i previously said... I wear RAINBOW beads with bi-beads on it, and they certainly know why because i tell them. They don't try to beat me up although i think they want to get me fired.

I wish you love and luck on your quest CherryBlossom. I hope someday we'll find our way in this world as an out bisexual. :flag3:

jedinudist

May 13, 2006, 6:18 PM

I hear ya!

If I or any of my friends had come out in high school, there are very good odds we wouldn't be alive today.

I have been aproached online by gay guys and guys claiming to be Bi who indeed wanted sex, right here, right now- don't care what your name is, just suck this!! I didn't act as if I was looking for sex, and if you look at my profile, it plainly states that I am not available. As soon as I let them know I'm not into that "hook-up" bullshit and that I am not playing the field- BAM!- I get called everything but a child of the Goddess.

Well, I'm here, I'm Bisexual, and I would be happy to be your friend. Feel free to place me on your thin list of allies.

Feeling kicked down and pushed away is how I've felt from both the straight and gay/lesbian realm before. Not that I came out, but listening to my straight friends, and my gay/lesbian friends slam the hell out of bisexuals didn't do much for my self-esteem either.

You've got allot of friends- right here.

:bigrin:

APMountianMan

May 14, 2006, 1:04 PM

I don't feel the bi beads prove anything. In all my years I've met one (1) non-bisexual who knew what the colors meant, and she worked at a GLBT bookstore that stocked bi pride items.

I realize there are a lot of risks to being out (though I will point out that lesbian and bisexual women are on the receiving end of violence, too). However, I've often noticed that people who aren't out do not have the most realistic ideas of what would happen if they were. How often I've heard "I'd lose my job, I'd lose my family, I'd lose all my friends" - even in cases where the person has gay coworkers, family, and friends.

I'm not saying these things never happen; they do. I'm not saying everyone should be out all the time - we all have to make our choices about the possible risks and benefits. But I will say that comparing what's actually happened to someone who is out with what's imagined by someone who isn't is a case of apples and oranges.

It may be a case of apples and oranges, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a reasonable use of common sense. Yes, lesbian and bisexual women are on the receiving end of violence, but not to the extent of gay and bisexual men. In most people's minds, being a bisexual male is the same as being gay: male having sex with males. That is the reality. To discount this as a matter of imagined fears is not reasonable. When you are in a workplace where systematically outed gay males have lost their jobs, or "decided" to move on after the city council has made a policy of inequality, that's not imagined. When you live in a town where people feel free to yell hostile slurs concerning others sexuality, that's not imagined. Apples and oranges, maybe; but that doesn't mean the threat is not real.

:cool: :2cents:

Driver 8

May 14, 2006, 2:08 PM

Yes, lesbian and bisexual women are on the receiving end of violence, but not to the extent of gay and bisexual men. [...] That is the reality. To discount this as a matter of imagined fears is not reasonable.
If you think I am saying men's fears about being out are imaginary, you have misread me very badly.

Both men and women need to make a realistic assessment of what they may gain and what they may lose when they decide how out they're going to be. Part of that judgment is going to be how the people around you talk about GLBT people, how they respond to the ones they know, what incidents you're aware of in your community.

For a lot of people, the benefits of being out in a hostile workplace amount to not having to worry about being found out. That probably doesn't outweigh being the constant target of demeaning remarks, disrespect from your co-workers that can make it hard to do the job you're there for, the possibility of being fired for reasons that amount to prejudice, and the like.

But when the original poster is claiming a fear of death if a bi man is out at work ... yes, I really do feel they're not being realistic about the degree of risk they're running. I think that if you genuinely believe that the people you work with are so bigoted that they will murder someone for not being straight, then you should be looking for another job, period.

canuckotter

May 14, 2006, 2:51 PM

But when the original poster is claiming a fear of death if a bi man is out at work ... yes, I really do feel they're not being realistic about the degree of risk they're running. I think that if you genuinely believe that the people you work with are so bigoted that they will murder someone for not being straight, then you should be looking for another job, period.

Death is probably unlikely... but serious beatings are quite possible, depending on the area, the people he knows, the type of work he does, etc. Even if his coworkers wouldn't beat him up, if they're as homophobic as he says, they probably have friends who are also homophobic, and it only takes a couple of them with a couple of beers in them...

Being bashed is no fun. I got away with only a kick in the balls and a few other really weak hits, including the lamest kick to the head I've ever experienced (and I was in tae kwon do for two years!), but someone slower than me, or less tough than me, would have gotten a serious beating.

Trust me, if he's worried, he's probably got a good reason. Even if the odds aren't as high as he thinks, the chance is still there.

CherryBlossom74

May 14, 2006, 3:56 PM

JohnnyV

May 14, 2006, 4:10 PM

Death is probably unlikely... but serious beatings are quite possible, depending on the area, the people he knows, the type of work he does, etc. Even if his coworkers wouldn't beat him up, if they're as homophobic as he says, they probably have friends who are also homophobic, and it only takes a couple of them with a couple of beers in them...

I think getting bashed is everyone's worst nightmare. Still, I think it's important to remember the reality of how violence works. The vast majority of adult violence occurs inside of domestic spaces, between people who know each other. A bi man is more likely to be killed by an angry lover than by a homophobic posse....

Canuck's kick in the balls sounds traumatic and my heart goes out to him.

J

APMountianMan

May 14, 2006, 4:31 PM

If you think I am saying men's fears about being out are imaginary, you have misread me very badly.

Both men and women need to make a realistic assessment of what they may gain and what they may lose when they decide how out they're going to be. Part of that judgment is going to be how the people around you talk about GLBT people, how they respond to the ones they know, what incidents you're aware of in your community.

For a lot of people, the benefits of being out in a hostile workplace amount to not having to worry about being found out. That probably doesn't outweigh being the constant target of demeaning remarks, disrespect from your co-workers that can make it hard to do the job you're there for, the possibility of being fired for reasons that amount to prejudice, and the like.

But when the original poster is claiming a fear of death if a bi man is out at work ... yes, I really do feel they're not being realistic about the degree of risk they're running. I think that if you genuinely believe that the people you work with are so bigoted that they will murder someone for not being straight, then you should be looking for another job, period.

I see your point. We don't often think of death as a reasonable outcome to being out, but it does happen. In Boston recently, a man targeted a gay bar with the intent to kill; and we all remember the lesson of Matthew Shepard. My point is that bi males are equated with gay males. That puts them in a class that is more often targeted by homophobic homicidal maniacs. In that context, an understanding of the potential of death is reasonable. Hate crimes happen. Minorities and those of differing sexual background are particular targets.

:cool: :2cents:

APMountianMan

May 14, 2006, 4:40 PM

I think getting bashed is everyone's worst nightmare. Still, I think it's important to remember the reality of how violence works. The vast majority of adult violence occurs inside of domestic spaces, between people who know each other. A bi man is more likely to be killed by an angry lover than by a homophobic posse....

Canuck's kick in the balls sounds traumatic and my heart goes out to him.

J

True. And thus the real truth to the fear of loss of family, friends, and respect of co-workers. There are a number of stories of family break-ups even on this site. What I have been saying is that we should not discount the fears associated with males being outted.

:cool:

Driver 8

May 14, 2006, 6:54 PM

Just FYI...I never mentiond death, at work, home or school.
I apologize - that was Lorcan, and since her situation seemed similar to yours (wife wears bi pride beads at work, husband can't come out at work) I'd put the stories together.

Lorcan

May 14, 2006, 7:31 PM

I apologize - that was Lorcan, and since her situation seemed similar to yours (wife wears bi pride beads at work, husband can't come out at work) I'd put the stories together.

Sorry. I was extrapolating to the worst case scenario,
which does occasional happen. :(

Driver 8

May 14, 2006, 7:33 PM

What I have been saying is that we should not discount the fears associated with males being outted.
I agree, but I do feel there's a difference between discounting those fears and evaluating the risks.

Let me give you some background. For several years, I ran the bisexual support group here in Indianapolis. In addition to our meetings, I also handled the phone calls that came in for the group; there were perhaps half a dozen or so a week, which added up to several hundred over the life of the group.

One thing that often struck me was the difference in what bisexuals who were relatively out were afraid of, and what bisexuals who were relatively closeted were afraid of.

People who were out had fairly specific concerns. "My mother hasn't spoken to me since my girlfriend moved in." "My brother-in-law told my wife he doesn't trust me around his kids." "My boss keeps upbraiding me for things he doesn't care about from other co-workers - I think he's looking for an excuse to let me go."

People who were closeted often believed that everything in their lives would fall apart. They genuinely expected to lose all their friends and family, lose their jobs and never find another, be shunned on the street. Often they were living very constrained lives because of these fears - one woman used to give me her GLBT-themed novels after she read them for fear that she would die in an accident, and her family - whom she hadn't seen for years - would find them and realize she wasn't straight.

But were the closeted people really at more risk? I don't think they were. In general, on average, I think that they were at the same risk as people who were out. Most of us had those same fears before we came out, and very few of us found that the worst happened. Yes, some of these things did happen; I've lost friends and relationships, been the brunt of general respect, even been threatened, and I think most of us can say the same.

That is what I mean when I say that I don't think you can look at what a woman who is out at work experiences, and what a man who isn't out at work is afraid of experiencing, and say "It's easier for women."

Lorcan

May 14, 2006, 8:06 PM

That is what I mean when I say that I don't think you can look at what a woman who is out at work experiences, and what a man who isn't out at work is afraid of experiencing, and say "It's easier for women."

So what your saying (???) is that the man has to come out too... and if he's fired and/or beat up then we will know whether it is easier for a woman or a man to be out.

Ok. That's fair.

APMountmain, I know you can take anyone on if they try to beat you up! And as for the other thing, we'll survive.

Driver 8

May 14, 2006, 9:10 PM

So what your saying (???) is that the man has to come out too... and if he's fired and/or beat up then we will know whether it is easier for a woman or a man to be out.

Ok. That's fair.
Oh for heaven's sake, I've said repeatedly in this thread that coming out is a personal decision, that people have to weigh their own risks, and that it's not worth it for everyone. I really don't see how you can claim that I've said men have to come out.

I think the whole question of easier versus harder is probably unanswerable; bisexual men and bisexual women are treated differently in many ways.

And as for how hard it it for men to be out ... have you considered that this could be learned from men who are out?

APMountianMan

May 14, 2006, 9:22 PM

That is what I mean when I say that I don't think you can look at what a woman who is out at work experiences, and what a man who isn't out at work is afraid of experiencing, and say "It's easier for women."

I get that. But when I am speaking, I am speaking about to people that are out: one male, one female. I contend, that in today's world, the male will have more difficulty.

So what your saying (???) is that the man has to come out too... and if he's fired and/or beat up then we will know whether it is easier for a woman or a man to be out.

Ok. That's fair.

APMountmain, I know you can take anyone on if they try to beat you up! And as for the other thing, we'll survive

No, I don't have fear of physical violence. Neither do I fear the financial repercussions -- between my many interests, yes we would survive. But for now, I think of our child. Yes, I could deal with the being a victim for the cause. But I am not going to force the repercussions on the kid. Right or wrong, this is my conviction.

Therefore, I will stick to my brand of "common sense."

:cool:

wanderingrichard

May 14, 2006, 10:42 PM

sean,
we, as bi men, will always have a harder time gaining acceptance for who we are no matter how advanced our so called civilization becomes here. face it, our country is still predicated on men being macho homophobes who hate in the name of protecting the weak and the "greater public good". prime example is your employer. in private life he probably thinks that woman on woman porn is the hottest thing since fire, and expects all women to be bisexual. yet in public, he's doing what you've described to cover his own inadeqacies. i wonder just what shortcomings he's over compensating for? or what embarrassing personal dirt some of my former investigators could have dug up on him.

personally, i think i would be looking for other employment. you dont need this guy and his recidivistic thinking. it's very obvious from what you've written that he believes freedom of speech and of the press don't apply to anyone but him when he disagrees with what others have written or spoken.

next time websters remakes the dictionary, i hope they include your boss's pic next to the terms 'nose picker", 'recidivistic" and "moron" .

the woman who opened her mouth and compared you to a pedophile, she doesnt deserve to even be around you. again, personally, i would have used some tidbit of knowledge of HER lifestyle to boomerang that grossly misguided comparison back at her, make her think next time before she opens her mouth like that. yes, that's stepping down to her level of thinking, but sometimes we have to do things we don't always want to.

yes, i guard my bisexuality closely at work. no, i wouldn't lose my career per se, but i would lose immediate employment at the current worksite due to it's sensitivity. yes, my employer has a very strict tolerance and diversity policy,but it's hugely ineffective this far away from the corporate flagpole. however, i also guard the rest of my life from my co workers, since so many of them are still stuck in smallmindsville type thinking, and i damn sure do not tell my physician(s) everything about me. they don't need to know that stuff. to me, they're nothing more than a mechanic that i take my car to and tell them, this is what is wrong, fix it.

my current physician is catholic, too. when we did our first interview, he made some very rude, probing comments to me about both myself and the person who recommended me to him. [ gay man in the health care admin. industry, but doc only suspects that. i caught immediately that he was trying to confirm his suspicions thru me] i obfuscated an answer by telling him it had been a purely social setting and left it at that. he was actually smart enough to take the hint and dropped the line he had taken.

basically sean, what i'm telling ya here is, based on personal experience, ya gots to stand up for yourself and adrienne and fight back, but you have to learn to pick and choose your battles, and have armed yourself with good solid information that will help you win almost every time.

catch me in private if ya want to talk.
Rich

ps: somehow, i think this ties in with our current feature article. sure we see all these examples of bisexual women activists, but tell me, since i can legally claim ignorance here, where is our shining bisexual MALE activist example??

JohnnyV

May 15, 2006, 9:40 AM

I think the whole question of easier versus harder is probably unanswerable; bisexual men and bisexual women are treated differently in many ways.
And as for how hard it it for men to be out ... have you considered that this could be learned from men who are out?

I know it probably got lost in the thread, and I went on too long about it, but a few posts earlier in this thread, I tried to list a bunch of ways that male and female bisexuals face different problems at their various jobs. I agree it's unanswerable, because it is so complicated.

J

JohnnyV

May 15, 2006, 9:48 AM

sean,
i think this ties in with our current feature article. sure we see all these examples of bisexual women activists, but tell me, since i can legally claim ignorance here, where is our shining bisexual MALE activist example??

I think there are lots of good male examples, but for the most part, they identify or have been identified as gay. The semantics of labels have usually eliminated the contributions of bisexual men. Often their relationships with ex-wives have been recast as some dark, earlier mistake they made before they saw the light and had some kind of conversion experience, almost like a born again Christian.

Just think of New Jersey governor, McGreevey, who had two wives, and when he came out as interested in men, he didn't say "I am a bi American" but "I am a gay American."

My gut tells me this is largely a function of the sexism in the gay male movement. For thousands of years networks of male-male sex were an effective way to maintain an old boys' network and exclude women. While in the late 1900s the situation was different and gay men could be viewed as an oppressed minority, they still have the remnants of an earlier, long-established social pattern that was actually very oppressive toward women. The gay male contempt toward the female partners of men who have sex with men, is best understood as a contempt for women, and basically a powerful form of sexism.

J

Driver 8

May 15, 2006, 12:51 PM

since i can legally claim ignorance here, where is our shining bisexual MALE activist example??
Nationally and internationally, off the top of my head, I'd start with Fritz Klein, Wayne Bryant, and Bill Burleson.

CountryLover

May 15, 2006, 8:29 PM

I have thoroughly enjoyed the discussion on this topic. JohnnyV, you contributed some important words of wisdom earlier.

I've been privileged to know and love a wide variety of bi men. Some are out, some are so closeted they'll never see daylight.

My best friend came out 2 years ago when he divorced. First he came out to his wife, who promptly hired a lawyer/shark and took him to court. He fought 'em to a standstill - and WON - and she kicked him out of the closet with the rest of the territory.

He lives in redneck country, a tiny town up in NW Colorado. Amazingly enough, even though he moved his gay partner in almost immediately, he hasn't had one bit of trouble. His 14 yr old son took the news in stride, and his friends are in and out of the house on a daily basis. His mom never flinched when he came out to her, and his siblings know that when he and his partner come to visit that they will share a bed.

Now he's good friends with the ex who adores his partner, their son is turning into an awesome young man, and my friend is gloriously happy to be out of the shadows and closet.

I think a couple factors come into play here. My friend is a very talented programmer and works as an independent contractor. He works out of his home and doesn't have a boss or co-workers to answer to. The best one is that he's just such a 24karat wonderful human being - and I don't know too many more like him LOL

Interestingly enough, he still strongly identifies as bi, bucking the tide against his gay buddies who press him to say he's finally "turned" gay.

Another dear friend is a psychiatrist at a very well known hospital here in Texas. He's completely out - and still identifies as bi though he's gay partnered. He's never mentioned any trouble to me at all when we've talked, and we visit often.

I guess what I'm trying to show here is that it IS possible for a bi man to be out, happy and accepted. Cherryblossom, I'm sorry it's been more painful for you - you're more patient than I am, by far.

APMountianMan

May 15, 2006, 9:32 PM

Cherryblossom,

Did you say your post don't get responses. LMAO! You started a firestorm. I hope that something said here is helpful to you.

:cool:

canuckotter

May 15, 2006, 10:26 PM

Canuck's kick in the balls sounds traumatic and my heart goes out to him.

It was more annoying than anything... They had no idea how to fight. I suspect I'm probably alone (or nearly alone) in history for wanting to critique my attackers' style and correct their obvious mistakes... :tong: There were seven of them. Had there been four or less, they would have spent some serious time in a hospital. I'm pretty tough. ;) If anything, the experience made me more confident and comfortable, not less.

Anyway, I'm sorry to have contributed to derailing this thread. :) I just posted that to confirm that yes, violence does still happen. It's not particularly common, but it's not vanished.

Back to the original topic... I've had jobs where I finally decided to say "To hell with it" and stopped hiding my bisexuality. I was pretty surprised that no-one had any problem with it... I worked with a bunch of macho guys when I was at a fast-food place years ago, and there were all the usual jokes about fags and such. I don't even remember what prompted me coming out, but there was no backlash at all. There were a couple guys I thought would have a problem with it, and they thought I was crazy for thinking they would have a problem with it. So sometimes it works out. :) And sometimes it doesn't.

And... I guess I don't really have a point. I'm tired and what i was trying to say has eluded me. So I'll leave you with this happy fellow: :wiggle2:

wanderingrichard

May 16, 2006, 1:17 AM

johnny, driver,,,,thanx for the info..i'm fairly closeted and secluded here workign with the military and all..
Rich

Driver 8

May 16, 2006, 12:19 PM

CherryBlossom74

May 17, 2006, 3:29 AM

Richard, if you have a chance, you might check out Bill Burleson's book Bi America (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560234792/sr=8-1/qid=1147796200/ref=sr_1_1/102-8220490-5029720?%5Fencoding=UTF8}). It has a nice history of the bi community and bi activism, as well as an overview of what Burleson found by talking to a lot of bisexuals from around the country. I think it's my favorite Bisexuality 101 book that's out right now - plus it's fairly recent, and therefore fairly up-to-date.

Well this looks like a refreshing take on things. The books I have seen and read thus far are usually written by women, from a bi-woman's pov. Not to mention the sections on bi's lives were about 90% about women. I never really thought about it til I read the preface of the book and some highlights from Amazon...it set me thinking.

I went back and looked at the Books Adrienne brought home from Border's Book Store. I shudder to think, but most of th ebooks we picked up were written by women bisexuals that were IN THE STORE! And th eselection was approximately 5 books. Odd that...I don't know if it means anything, or if they simply brought in books at random and mor ewere written by women, or perhaps this is some way that the bookstore owners accidentally or on purpose showed they were more accepting of female isexuality than men's?

Or maybe it was simply an accident of choices? WHo the hell knows, I guess. When I have mor etime I'll drag the books out and write the names and authors so you can see what I mean.

JohnnyV

May 17, 2006, 3:44 AM

And... I guess I don't really have a point. I'm tired and what i was trying to say has eluded me. So I'll leave you with this happy fellow: :wiggle2:

I like the little wiggle man.

Anyway, about the threat topic, I'm not out at my current job, but that's because I'm an educator. When you teach, nobody in your classroom should know much about you at all. And the less you know about your students' personal lives, the better.

Once on another queer forum there was a huge debate about whether gay teachers should reach out to gay students. I weighed in heavily on the negative. Teenagers come up with lots of crazy ideas, like "hey, I'll tell everyone I'm gay" and then change their mind the following week. You don't want to be caught in a student's drama and then, heaven forbid, have a student misinterpret your intervention as a sexual advance. Sometimes there's this stark picture painted of adolescent gays and bisexuals tortured over their sexuality and verging on suicide. Research points to a higher suicide rate among students with sexual identity questions, but our natural instinct to intervene is, in such cases, very dangerous. Young people have to figure those questions out without the interference of authority figures whose primary obligation to them lies elsewhere -- like, say, teaching them math or training them to compete in a sport. One guy said it's horrible that a gay teacher would watch a gay student struggle and not come out to him, but really, I think it's professional responsibility to maintain a serious distance. My approach is simply to be as non-judgmental about students' need for extra time or assistance to get their work done, and to do my best to help them learn the material for my class. I've only recommended counseling to one student once in my whole teaching career. He screamed at me, and after that, I vowed never even to suggest that students see a therapist. I let them work through those things in their own way, and keep things professional.

I think in my case, my fears of the repercussions of revealing my sexual identity at work are accurate and compelling. I sometimes have to teach alone in front of as many as 150 students, ages 17-23. The possibility that a band of bashers in the auditorium will jump me in the back parking lot, particularly after a really hard midterm, is ever-present and nothing to laugh off.

J
:2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :2cents: :cool: :2cents: :2cents:

Driver 8

May 17, 2006, 10:07 AM

I don't know if it means anything, or if they simply brought in books at random and mor ewere written by women, or perhaps this is some way that the bookstore owners accidentally or on purpose showed they were more accepting of female isexuality than men's?

Or maybe it was simply an accident of choices?
Historically, especially recently, a majority of bi activists have been women. The main reason is that the lesbian community was much more politicized than the gay men's community, and when this led to the idea that bisexual women weren't welcome, bi women who had been active in the lesbian community went out and started bi groups, wrote books, et cetera.

During the years I was running the local bi group, I got in touch with a lot of groups in the neighboring states. All were run by women, and all had a similar background of feeling unwelcome in first the straight, then the lesbian communities. (Which is not to say we didn't end up with men who were involved; but I find it interesting that in, what, five out of five cases, the person who got fed up enough to put up fliers, find a meeting space, et cetera, was a woman.)

And if women's sexuality really were more accepted ... wouldn't you also expect there to be fewer women activists?

JohnnyV

May 17, 2006, 10:26 AM

All were run by women, and all had a similar background of feeling unwelcome in first the straight, then the lesbian communities. (Which is not to say we didn't end up with men who were involved; but I find it interesting that in, what, five out of five cases, the person who got fed up enough to put up fliers, find a meeting space, et cetera, was a woman.)

I think lesbians are simply more hostile to bi women than gay men are toward bi men. Gay men are more likely to snicker that you're deluded or not telling the truth, but they won't kick you out of a group or snub you outright. Lesbians do both.

J

Driver 8

May 17, 2006, 11:22 AM

Maybe it isn't a question of female and male bi difficulties being greater or lesser... probably that the kinds of biphobia each gender experiences differ.
Bi men, it seems to me, get stuck with the "not a real man" label, and the loss of status that goes with it. Bi women get stuck with the "slut" label and a different set of stereotypes.

Married bi men are often assumed to actually be gay, and using their wives as a front - or to be cheating on their wives. In contrast, bi women's same-sex relations aren't taken seriously - they're more likely to be seen as "straight now," having done some experimentation that doesn't really count.

I also think that lesbian and bi women's relationships with straight women are often overlooked. In my experience, straight women can be extraordinarily hostile to lesbian and bi women - even straight women who are accepting of gay guys. Quite a few heterosexual women have quietly (or loudly) disappeared from my life when they found out I was bi. And at workplaces where I haven't been out, I've usually found that other women, even in other departments, are friendly and show a certain amount of solidarity; I haven't had the same experience at jobs where I've been out.