Slut Walks

[Katja]

Last weekend I dressed in the sluttiest clothes I had and dashed through to Newcastle upon Tyne where a friend had asked me to show support and solidarity and join her and a few friends on a Slut Walk due to take part in the city. Walks also took place in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cardiff.

Slut Walks in the UK are a very new phenomenon, as they are anywhere and originated as a result of a police chief in Canada telling women to get real and not to dress like sluts or they can expect to get treated like sluts and area askng to be raped.

I have never accepted that how I or any other woman attire ourselves is an invitation to be raped. No evidence exists that this is the case although many, women included, believe it.

None of the walks was over attended by walkers and each attracted only a few hundred, but there is no doubt each caught the attention of the media, shoppers and passers by. Walks are planned in Manchester tomorrow (10 June) and London on Sunday (11 June). Walks have taken place in many cities around the globe and are planned almost every weekend in cities in many countries over the next few months.

It is I hope, the beginning of a movement of women around the world, and their less mysoginistic male supporters to help gain respect and justice for women, and acceptance that how we clothe ourselves is our affair and not an invite to be victimised, raped or treated like sluts by the police or any other institution, but most importantly by to be treated decently and with respect by them and our fellow citizens in general, and a certain kind of man in particular.

http://www.channel4.com/news/fierce-debate-over-uks-first-slutwalks

[tatooedpunk]

I saw the judges comments,dinosaur judges have been saying the same tired old "if you wear a miniskirt you deserve to be raped" shit for decades. I admire all of you for standing up to that

[BiBedBud]

^^^^ Correction....

It wasn't "a police chief in Canada" who said that ignorant, offensive, reprehensible thing. It was a police constable. Our Chief knows better.

http://deansblog.osgoode.yorku.ca/2011/05/slutwalks-and-serendipity/#more-98

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/

PS: Some of my favourite people are sluts!

[Annika L]

Last weekend I dressed in the sluttiest clothes I had and dashed through to Newcastle upon Tyne where a friend had asked me to show support and solidarity and join her and a few friends on a Slut Walk due to take part in the city. Walks also took place in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Cardiff.

Slut Walks in the UK are a very new phenomenon, as they are anywhere and originated as a result of a police chief in Canada telling women to get real and not to dress like sluts or they can expect to get treated like sluts and area askng to be raped.

I have never accepted that how I or any other woman attire ourselves is an invitation to be raped. No evidence exists that this is the case although many, women included, believe it.


I think this is a brilliant idea, and I hope it catches on in the States! I would love to do this!

[DuckiesDarling]

In theory, it's a great idea, in practice....I dunno. Technically most night clubs have both women and men in clothes that show off their "assets". Do I think any woman deserves to be raped if she wears a miniskirt? Fuck no, but then you have the side issue of skimpy clothing, drinking and severe flirtations that do get out of hand and lead to rape. But in the end rape is not about sex, it's about power. When a man or a woman says NO to sexual intercourse it should be heeded no matter if they are standng there wearing nothing but a birthday suit.

The person who made the remark about deserving to be raped was offensive to say the least but there are a lot of other factors that should be taken into account when a sexual assault occurs beyond what the victim was wearing, drinking or saying.

I do wish the energy that was put into protests like this were also put into the candelight vigil protests against violence that take place all the time here in the States.

The thing that seems to be taken for granted is that rape only happens to women in slutty clothes. It can happen to anyone of any gender and any age in any location.

[sammie19]

I think they are a great idea. I couldn't make last weekend's walks in Edinburgh or Glasgow but will make every effort to join future ones. It is time people realised that what we wear isn't an invitation to be raped and that police and the authorities, and large sections of the media that we deserve the same protections and the same respect given to us as anyone else.

One little point. I hope Katja is reading and hasn't set off yet. If she goes to Manchester for the walk she will have missed it cos it happened last night and London's is today not tomorrow. I think you should have checked your information a little better hun. Bit of a booby hey? lol.

But Manchester is a great shopping centre so if you are down there, have a great day shopping in the tarty gear. A one girl slut's walk round the Arndale centre?

http://www.itv.com/granada/slut-walk-in-manchester42458/
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?69163-London-Slut-Walk-Today-11-June-2011-New-Statesmen-news-story
http://slutmeansspeakup.org.uk/

[darkeyes]

In theory, it's a great idea, in practice....I dunno. Technically most night clubs have both women and men in clothes that show off their "assets". Do I think any woman deserves to be raped if she wears a miniskirt? Fuck no, but then you have the side issue of skimpy clothing, drinking and severe flirtations that do get out of hand and lead to rape. But in the end rape is not about sex, it's about power. When a man or a woman says NO to sexual intercourse it should be heeded no matter if they are standng there wearing nothing but a birthday suit.

The person who made the remark about deserving to be raped was offensive to say the least but there are a lot of other factors that should be taken into account when a sexual assault occurs beyond what the victim was wearing, drinking or saying.

I do wish the energy that was put into protests like this were also put into the candelight vigil protests against violence that take place all the time here in the States.

The thing that seems to be taken for granted is that rape only happens to women in slutty clothes. It can happen to anyone of any gender and any age in any location.

Your last sentence is dead wrong darlin' darlin'.. it isnt takin' for granted that rape only happens to women dressed in slutty clothes.. its 'bout society, or its more conservative defenders, the ones who want to keep women shackled to the kitchen sink, bringin' up baby and generally doing as those brain dead arseholes want and trying to drag us back to a time when women had no rights, and were the sex objects that they want them to be. Its 'bout power ok, the power of the state, and its servants, the polis an the courts to shove women back in the box of silence and subservience that they have never liked them emerging from... it is 'bout liberation of half the human race and raisin' it to a position of true equality with the other half.

It is 'bout much more than rape darlin darlin, so don't make the mistake of thinking that rape and how women dress is all that its about...

A lil point.. doesnt matter how much energy ya put into a candlelight vigil, the most energy expended is the energy used burning the candle. No matter how many people u have on it.. that isnt meant to demean it, for they have their place in the protest movement, but just as slut walks cannot be the whole answer to violence against women, they have an important role to play in the overall campaign of defiance of the peace loving, I hope majority, against those who espouse, perpetrate and perpetuate violence.

Each and every single protest movement against violence and oppression against any section of our society is important. They are important because they illustrate and make us aware of the issue. The most effective also can make change. The lgbt movement is one such historically effective movement which has had great success in achieving change. But it has never operated in isolation entirely however much it thinks it did. Other movements have assisted its progress toward equality.... the feminist movement and the struggle for women's liberation being one such struggle, the struggles against racism anf for civil rights being another and struggles against censorship and political repression at home and abroad. They are all, together with other movements which struggle and protest to achieve a better human condition, part of a human desire for a better world, and none would have made as much progress without the existence of other such struggles across the planet.

Slut Walks are new. Some feminists hate them, from what I can gather, because of the word "slut"...the establishment certainly does because of its wish to keep women placid and quiet, and turn us into nice, modestly dressed conservative women who will cause them no trouble, raise the children and do as they, overbearing, pompous, sexist, mysoginistic men mostly, wish.

The attempt to reclaim the word some feminists say is an insult to women because of its historical meaning, and the one many attach to it. I think they are wrong, because words change in meaning over time, or develop new meanings... the very word "gay" for instance is one such, and gay people, bi too are struggling to redefine the word queer as not an insult but a word of which to be proud. Why not the word "slut", or tart or whore for that matter? I have often referred to myself as a tart... it reflects who I am and my lifestyle, and the fact that I have always enjoyed life to the full. I am a good time girl... yet another phrase which tells women what they are and shouldn't be. And I have always fought the negativity which surrounds all of these words.

Don't belittle Slut Walks darlin' darlin'... they are just one more tool in the armoury of non violent and peace loving humanity in its struggle against that violence you so abhor. It will never change attitudes entirely, and will not achieve its aims entirely, but it will in time show that it has had its effect. It may yet grow into a great world movement or evolve into something else or may disappear, but it will have and already has made its mark and its influence felt. Our job is to make sure it is not transient and that it does mean something and make a difference.

If I was up to it I would be in London today and regret, like wee Craigie, that I was unable to make last weekends shindig in Edinburgh. I wont miss another even if Kate has to push me along Princes Street, down the Mile or up Arthur's Seat in a bloody wheelchair.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jun/11/london-slutwalk

[_Joe_]

Man, this is a movement I can get behind...and I love behinds.

[torguy4bifun]

Geez they say slut like it's a bad thing. :bigrin:

[sammie19]

Geez they say slut like it's a bad thing. :bigrin:

Thats why they walk hun:tong:. Cos to a lot of people it is a bad thing.:eek:

[binjlooking]

Hmmmmm. Worked with some younger people a few years ago and a female store manager. She would arrive in the morning to open up the shop dressed in a barely buttoned shirt and boy shorts. When in uniform her backside was often exposed ( no belt ). She was definitely working the younger guys with her appearance and attitude. I felt it was better left for after work but of course that isn't always better. I was not surprised to learn that at a party ( she was also a binge drinker ) she passed out. Two co-workers took the liberty of opening her trousers and checking her out. They later sent e-mails out describing her as looking like " a soggy Big Mac". Ouch. Dress as you please but be aware that some males will get ideas and act on them regardless of your stand on the subject.

[BiBedBud]

^^^njbjbottom,

.... she passed out. Two co-workers took the liberty of opening her trousers and checking her out. They later sent e-mails out describing her as looking like " a soggy Big Mac". Ouch. Dress as you please but be aware that some males will get ideas and act on them regardless of your stand on the subject.

Well, they should have gone to jail, because you should have blown the whistle on them. But, I'm guessing that you covered-up for them, and that makes you an accessory after the fact.

If she's passed out, that means she cannot consent, which makes what they did an assault -- a felony -- a sex crime.

You are an accessory after the fact for a sex crime.

You want to do the right thing? Then tell her what happened. If she wants to call the cops on all of you, that would be her right.

[mikey3000]

Your last sentence is dead wrong darlin' darlin'.. it isnt takin' for granted that rape only happens to women dressed in slutty clothes.. its 'bout society, or its more conservative defenders, the ones who want to keep women shackled to the kitchen sink, bringin' up baby and generally doing as those brain dead arseholes want and trying to drag us back to a time when women had no rights, and were the sex objects that they want them to be. Its 'bout power ok, the power of the state, and its servants, the polis an the courts to shove women back in the box of silence and subservience that they have never liked them emerging from... it is 'bout liberation of half the human race and raisin' it to a position of true equality with the other half.



Holy shit, you sure do got a soapbox for every freakin' topic. Even Gloria Steinem mellowed after a while, Sheesh. How about a little propriety?

[Long Duck Dong]

I live in NZ..... the statements about how women are dressed and act, do apply to this country, they make up the majority of reports of sexual assault and rape......

its known as weekend rape claims by the hospitals and the police and most times, involve drugs, drinking, flirtation and regrets.....

yet the official studies and reports, will tell you something totally different....and I can pull a number of them that directly conflict what the police and hospital will say ( unofficially, cos it would cost them their jobs to go public with the truth )

we have what is known as the weekend rape culture in NZ, the number of claims of sexual assault and rape are highest at the weekend, than any other time week.... and in most cases, it involves drunk / drugged females that are provocatively dressed that ended up on the receiving end of what they created, and claiming it was not their fault.......

strange thing is, its never their fault, its always the male......

recently a top pilot in NZ was reinstated to his job, after he was fired for sexual misconduct...... he had a layover with another male and a female,
the female was acting provocatively, talking about wanting sex, exposing herself to them, and then started drinking.... later that night, she got into bed with the pilot and they had sex...... in the morning, regrets kicked in, she filed a complaint and he lost his job......

the employment tribunal found in his favour and reinstated him, yet the female escaped any warnings over her own behievour....

I can not help but think, every time I read a thread like this, that people are pushing for females to be able to do that..... and not have to accept any responsibility for their actions, yet be treated with respect and exempted from any personal responsibility for their own actions

it matches the single mother culture in NZ, where a large number of females were getting pregnant, cos they wanted a baby, but not the issues of a relationship or to have to commit to a relationship........ and yes, the statement of their rights comes up again.... its their right not to have to be a relationship with the babies father.......

it has become known as the slut culture.....

1) if I get pregnant, its the males fault.....
2) I should be able to go out and party, if it goes wrong, its the males fault
3) what I dress like, is fine, I should be respected by males.....
4) I should be able to fuck whoever I want, when I want, and not be called a slut.....
5) its not fair, I get called a slut, the male gets called a stud ( actually most guys will not admit to fucking some females cos they are sluts )
6) its my body, my choice, I get the final say..... and other people should respect me, not use me for sex, even if I use other people for sex.....


I already know what is coming, I have seen it before in the site and in threads like this..... the * we should be treated with respect, even when we act like sluts * stance......and my simple reaction is that people treat you by the way you act..... you want to act like a slut, you will be treated like one... not with the respect you think you should have... cos sluts are not known for their self respect or respect of others.......and thats a simple, blunt fact and reality of life.....

I know that, cos my EX was a slut, 14 affairs and child with no father, in 7 years... and the constant claims of sexual assault... yet, it never stopped her doing it or blaming the males for the result

[Katja]

Sometimes it doesn't pay to listen to one's friends. As Sammie19 has posted, Manchester was indeed Friday night. I got up Saturday morning ready for a nice reasonably stress free drive down to Manchester (as stress free as the M6 ever is), and hear on the radio over breakfast about the walk the night before. It wasn't quite panic, but you know the feeling when you realise that everything is up in the air and you werent where you were supposed to be the day before.

I won't go into detail why I had all the wrong information but suffice to say, a certain friend got a long, severe and very irate tongue lashing over the telephone.

Change of plans and why not? I caught a train from Penrith and arrived in London just after midday and got to Hyde park in plenty of time for the start. I have no idea how many people were there, but it did run into quite a few thousand many of whom were men which was lovely to see. Some of the sluttiest gear was on show and it was fun watching quizzicaland mystified looks from shoppers and tourists alike as we made our way to Trafalgar Square and also some rather disgusted looks.

A few disparaging remarks from the more mysoginistic men were heard as we passed by but these were relatively few, and there were also some 'propositions' handed out as we passed and mock suggestive kisses blown but I didn't feel at all self concious dressed as I was. I was after all in the very best of company and it was very good humoured and at times very funny indeed. There seemed to be a good understanding of the issue by onlookers and support, although I would be lying if I said this was universal.

I got back home about 10.30 and steeped in the bath for over an hour to relax and wash the London grime off my body and have been relaxing on the sofa to really wind down.

All in all it was a very successful day and one I shall always remember. It was certainly very different from that which I had expected when I awoke that morning. There are no regrets on my part and think it was a very useful and important exercise and in many ways even an eye opener for me. A good strike for women everywhere.:)

http://harpymarx.wordpress.com/2011/06/11/london-slutwalk/

[mikey3000]

Funny, but when I see a "slut" walk down the street, it's usually right after my wife seen her first. "Oh my God, Look what she's wearing."

So this thread made me realize, it's not the guys that call these women sluts, it's other women. And it's usually them who say that these sluts get what they deserve. I've never heard a man say that.

Then again, I've learned a long time ago, women don't dress to impress men, they dress to impress (or shock) other women.

[drugstore cowboy]

So this is what Feminism and take back the night and violence against women rallies have devolved into?

I'm all for people wearing whatever they want but I don't see the point of a protest like this at all.

I think it's just going to give a bad name to women who are raped or sexually assaulted, as others have said many times other women are the most judgemental about blaming female rape and sexual assault victims and saying how these women deserved to be raped or sexually assaulted based on what they're wearing or if they're drunk or taking risks and going with strangers or people they don't know at all.

I remember reading about a study where they surveyed men and women and what they thought about female rape victims and if they thought that women who are drunk or dress provocatively deserve it.

A large percentage of women in this study/survey thought that the other female rape victims deserved it (especially if the woman was drunk or dressed provocatively), while the men did not, and the women said how the other women should take responsibility if they decide to have sex with a man.

A few years ago where I live on a nearby university campus and the close surrounding area there was a sudden increase in rapes and sexual assaults. I remember I overheard a woman talking about how another woman who was sexually assaulted (in this woman's own words) "Totally deserved it" when a car pulled up to a streetcorner, asked for directions, and the car door opened up and the male driver asked her to get into the car, she made the choice to get in and not run away or leave yet she was not forced into the car at all, and then this woman was sexually assaulted by the man in the car.

I have seen what Long Duck Dong wrote about with hook ups that turn into post sexual regret and then the woman cries wolf about being "raped" when she made the choice to have sex with this man, I remember hearing about this on the news years ago when one woman wound up having sex with a man she was either dating or hooking up with after a date, and she wanted to have sex with him and had consensual sex, and then the next day or when some time had passed she decided how she somehow really did like having sex with this man or did not like this man anymore who she was dating, so she claimed that it is "rape".

I'm not saying that anyone who is actually raped deserves it even if they are drunk or wearing revealing clothing but there are people who do exploit rape laws to put the blame on the man when they don't like him or they regret having sex with him after they stop dating or if it's post sex regret the next morning.

Something that nobody talks about and they're just now starting to come out and admit and talk about is how in the GLB "community" how gay and bisexual men do get sexually assaulted and date raped by other men and how this is more common than people want to admit.

There are even heterosexual men who have been raped and sexually assaulted by bisexual and gay men, and I'm not talking about prison rape at all with any of these men who have been raped or sexually assaulted.

[drugstore cowboy]

There are even women who rape men but nobody talks about this or hasn't until recently.

[Katja]

An interesting viewpoint Cowboy, most of which is not pertinent to the issue.

I do think that your view that Slut Walks will give a bad name to women who are raped is very pertinent however, and to shows in no small way that you have bought into the general view of many about the inappropriateness of how many women dress. You may not have said that women do not deserve to be raped, but your use of the words 'bad name' in the way you have utilised them, actually appears contradictory.

These demonstrations as such are not feminist demonstrations at all, although there is a large and important feminist involvement. Many of the women yesterday and in Newcastle the previous week were not feminists . Many were in some ways quite naive young girls with little understanding of sexual politics and others were women who just wanted to be allowed to dress as they wish without being preyed upon and raped.

There were the die hard feminist types, but we have to remember that many feminists don't like or approve these demonstrations for their own reasons. I am a feminist only insofar as I believe women should have equality with men and live without fear, but understand why so many feminists become so passionate and often embittered. There was little bitterness yesterday. Only a sincere expression of the desire to be free of the threat of rape, and not be at the mercy of the power hungry mysoginist.

The other issues you raised belong to a quite seperate thread. We are not discussing women who have falsely claimed rape. That is not relevant, and although a linked issue, rape of gay and bisexual people, especially men by members of their own gender, or simply men by men I do believe is a different matter and requires much more attention and study than it has been given hitherto. The issue of women who rape men I must admit is one of which I have only the vaguest notion and little knowledge, but I do believe that is the same for society as a whole, and is another area which needs further study. What I do believe is that any who has been raped, irrespective of gender, should be supportive however critically of efforts to do something about stopping rape.

What we know is that the vast majority of people who are raped are women; many go unreported, and many who do report being raped are unable to face the trauma of reliving that event, and so charges are not brought, or trials collapse. Many rapists are acquitted, not because the victim was not raped but because attitudes of how men dress and act are considered pertinent to the case by some and used in just the same way as those who consider women as so much baggage. There is at least one Canadian Justice who has more or less said as much. Victims in effect become raped a second time by the law and the trial itself.

Slut Walks are not about feminism. They are about gaining respect for women and trying to put an end to rape. I will gladly accept a bad name if it alters the view of one person and prevents the rape of another.

[Katja]

Funny, but when I see a "slut" walk down the street, it's usually right after my wife seen her first. "Oh my God, Look what she's wearing."

So this thread made me realize, it's not the guys that call these women sluts, it's other women. And it's usually them who say that these sluts get what they deserve. I've never heard a man say that.

Then again, I've learned a long time ago, women don't dress to impress men, they dress to impress (or shock) other women.

No darling, such women merely reflect the view of some women in an overwhelmingly masculine world. It is how they have grown up and what have been taught to believe. If you have never heard a man say something similar then you do live in a very closeted world.

Women do not dress to impress or shock other women. They dress most importantly to impress themselves and feel good. Any other consideration is secondary.

[darkeyes]

Holy shit, you sure do got a soapbox for every freakin' topic. Even Gloria Steinem mellowed after a while, Sheesh. How about a little propriety?

Wen me gets 2 b lil ole lady like 'er, then mayb a lil mellowin' will b in order.. till then lemme sound off in me own way 'bout the things me believes in.. u rabbit on ur shit, Gloria will do 'ers... just lemme do mine...:)

Soapbox is very appropropriate.. plenty shit needs cleanin up in this world... an me soap box still has plenty soap left for wot needs dun...:bigrin:

Btw.. ya know wot propriety means? It means appropriateness an bein proper.. also means conformin' 2 convention an accepted standards of behaviour.. as well as morality. Now u tell me in wich way me lacks propriety? Bout the 1st, nowt me said contradicts any standard of propriety.. bout the second... well.. thats quite a different matta... an funnily enuff.. thats wot Slut Walks r all 'bout if put ya brain in gear an think 'bout it..:tong:

Dontcha worry Mikey.. am retired from this place an ne posts me makes will b just the occasional lil nudge 2 keepyas on the straight an narra..:bigrin:

[tenni]

"There is at least one Canadian Justice who has more or less said as much. Victims in effect become raped a second time by the law and the trial itself. "

Katja
I believe that someone above pointed out that it was not a "Canadian Justice" but a "Toronto police officer" who made the controversial statement labelling women and people most at risk of sexual assault as “sluts” that caused the first Slut Walk in Toronto on April 3, 2011. It was not a chief of police either as has been posted but a lower level police officer.

It is perhaps bad enough to have a Canadian police officer to make this statement but to promote the idea that a Canadian Justice would have been appointed with such an attitude is unfortunate. We generally still tend to have people in the higher judicial positions with better wisdom and cautionary comments.

http://www.slutwalktoronto.com/about/what


"In January, Toronto Police Const. Michael Sanguinetti told a personal security class at York University that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized."

Sanguinetti apologized for his comments, but his apology failed to satisfy walk organizer Sonya Barnett. "

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2011/04/03/slut-walk-toronto.html

"Barnett said she wants to use the walk to reclaim the word and also demand that victim-shaming change."

The walk/march is appropriate to emphasise the inappropriate victim shaming but I'm not so sure about the "reclaiming" comment made by Barnett. Then again, I'm not convinced about other such attempts as reclaiming the word "niggar" or "queer" either. Jokingly, I find men calling their own sexual behaviour as sluts to be more appropriate...lol

Although such walks have merit to point out errors about judging another person's sexual morality, isn't the entire concern about other people's sexual behaviour no one else's business if you are not part of the action?

[Katja]

Tenni, it is not the original officer's comments to which I was referring when I mentioned a Canadian Justice. I should have acknowledged the previous correction made and do apologise for not doing so earlier.

I would prefer not to use wikipedia as a source but time is at a premium right now but this is what I referring to;

'On January 24, 2011 Constable Michael Sanguinetti and another officer from the Toronto Police Service's 31 Division were speakers at a York University safety forum.[5] The school has had some problems with crime and the officers were meant to address prevention methods. Sanguinetti commented that "women should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized".[5] The officer later apologized for the remark. This comment was followed by another controversial incident in the Canadian justice system involving Justice Robert Dewar. On February 2011, while presiding over a rape case, Dewar remarked that on the evening of the alleged rape "sex was in the air" and the victim's behavior and attire may have given the attacker the wrong impression (she was wearing a tube top and heels).[6] He also mentioned that the victim was wearing makeup and had been drinking. The judge found the defendant guilty yet sentenced him to two years of probation. The judge also required that the defendant write the victim a letter of apology.[7] The typical sentence for such a crime is usually at least three years in prison. However, since the judge felt that the defendant wasn't threatening - just “insensitive to the fact (she) was not a willing participant”[7] - he will serve no jail time. This prompted an appeal of the sentence,[8] a review of the judge's conduct by the Canadian Judicial Council,[9] and massive public outcry'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SlutWalk

Regarding whose business our sexual morality and behaviour is in general I would agree with you. Yet sex crime is sexual behaviour is it not and is certainly pertinent to sexual morality? So your question infers something which can only be partly right.

[tenni]

Katja
Yes, wiki is correct about the judge's comments and following outrage. I was not sure how much time had elapsed. Interesting that wiki connects the two but here where it happened, there is not that much connection happening that I know of. Most are focused on the recent incident but this may be an overall reaction to both. I don't think that decisions have been made about the judge's sentencing yet.

"Regarding whose business our sexual morality and behaviour is in general I would agree with you. Yet sex crime is sexual behaviour is it not and is certainly pertinent to sexual morality? So your question infers something which can only be partly right."

I do not know if sex crime is sexual behaviour when I also read that rape is not about sex but about power? Can both be true? Sexual power? The entire concept of sexual morality is a bit problem some and in particular for those who engage in same sex activity.

Again, going to wiki you may be correct.
"Ethical dilemmas which involve sex can often appear in situations where there is a significant power difference or where there is a pre-existing professional relationship between the participants, or where consent is partial or uncertain."

Then again though, how one presents one self, and messages verbal and non verbal come into play when it comes to consent. The absolute is sometimes stated as it must be verbal rather than non verbal consent. People do play games of seduction though and that is mostly non verbal or perhaps tonal in quality along with non verbal cues. It can all get confusing.

[Katja]

Katja


I do not know if sex crime is sexual behaviour when I also read that rape is not about sex but about power? Can both be true? Sexual power? The entire concept of sexual morality is a bit problem some and in particular for those who engage in same sex activity.

Again, going to wiki you may be correct.
"Ethical dilemmas which involve sex can often appear in situations where there is a significant power difference or where there is a pre-existing professional relationship between the participants, or where consent is partial or uncertain."

Then again though, how one presents one self, and messages verbal and non verbal come into play when it comes to consent. The absolute is sometimes stated as it must be verbal rather than non verbal consent. People do play games of seduction though and that is mostly non verbal or perhaps tonal in quality along with non verbal cues. It can all get confusing.

Sex crime, particular rape is power expressing itself in an extreme form of inappropriate sexual behaviour, therefore the two are inextricably linked.

For some, the hunger for power over another needs to be sated, and rape is a method by which that craving is satisfied. Some people feed that hunger in legal ways such as being successful in business or in politics. Rapists and others who hurt people in some way have an inadequacy which prevents them from achieving the success they wish for, and even the legally successful power seekers often fall foul of the law and rape or abuse their power in some other way because of some deep seated feeling of inadequacy.

[Diva667]

If you are drugged or drunk you can not give adequate consent therefore it is quite possible that any sexual activity could be considered sexual assault.

Just because someone is drunk or dressed in a suggestive manner does not imply consent.

No one deserves to be raped - not the 14 yo who walks down the street with everything showing, not the male prisoner locked up for murder.

[Long Duck Dong]

If you are drugged or drunk you can not give adequate consent therefore it is quite possible that any sexual activity could be considered sexual assault.

Just because someone is drunk or dressed in a suggestive manner does not imply consent.

No one deserves to be raped - not the 14 yo who walks down the street with everything showing, not the male prisoner locked up for murder.

agreed, it doesn't imply consent..... but NOR does it automatically make the other person responsible for the actions of the female.... or excuse her behievour

the argument used is that even implied consent is not consent .... and ok.... but that means that any male that has had sex with a female and she has not stated that yes she consents to sexual intercourse, is guilty of sexual assault.......including his own partner / wife

this is the issue that the legal system and the courts face daily....

they have to decide if it is a case of rape, or implied consent that was later withdrawn without being clearly expressed...... as there is a clear difference between a lady out walking her dog that gets attacked and a lady that flirts with the guys, gets drunk, goes home with one of them, stuff happens and she claims sexual assault / rape, but was so drunk that she can not remember what the hell she did

we do stupid things when we are drunk and males are no different, yet its males that are blamed and held accountable for the actions of BOTH people.....

the argument that its a waste of time going to the police cos they will not be believed, is something a number of cops I know, will argue against....

if a female was to go straight to the police so a medical check and swap could be done, the chances are higher of a investigation and conviction, than if the female waits 2-3 days.....
while the cops respect the trauma that a female has gone through..... they need them to go to the cops asap

what makes it hard for the cops, is incomplete statements, people with no real memory of what happened or with who...and no medical evidence to back up any claims... yet the expectation that the cops will arrest and charge people on little to no evidence that will not stand up in court...... and that is where the burden of proof comes into it

otherwise people could act like my ex partner, and accuse every guy she went with, of trying to sexually assault her.... even tho she was known as the town slut and a person that would use sex to get guys wrapped around her lil finger......

to my knowledge, she laid a total of 37 complaints

looking at katjas links of the pics, there is a female standing there with a sign that says, there are no bad females only bad laws...... and that says it all......

[Katja]

agreed, it doesn't imply consent..... but NOR does it automatically make the other person responsible for the actions of the female.... or excuse her behievour

the argument used is that even implied consent is not consent .... and ok.... but that means that any male that has had sex with a female and she has not stated that yes she consents to sexual intercourse, is guilty of sexual assault.......including his own partner / wife

this is the issue that the legal system and the courts face daily....

they have to decide if it is a case of rape, or implied consent that was later withdrawn without being clearly expressed...... as there is a clear difference between a lady out walking her dog that gets attacked and a lady that flirts with the guys, gets drunk, goes home with one of them, stuff happens and she claims sexual assault / rape, but was so drunk that she can not remember what the hell she did

we do stupid things when we are drunk and males are no different, yet its males that are blamed and held accountable for the actions of BOTH people.....

the argument that its a waste of time going to the police cos they will not be believed, is something a number of cops I know, will argue against....

if a female was to go straight to the police so a medical check and swap could be done, the chances are higher of a investigation and conviction, than if the female waits 2-3 days.....
while the cops respect the trauma that a female has gone through..... they need them to go to the cops asap

what makes it hard for the cops, is incomplete statements, people with no real memory of what happened or with who...and no medical evidence to back up any claims... yet the expectation that the cops will arrest and charge people on little to no evidence that will not stand up in court...... and that is where the burden of proof comes into it

otherwise people could act like my ex partner, and accuse every guy she went with, of trying to sexually assault her.... even tho she was known as the town slut and a person that would use sex to get guys wrapped around her lil finger......

to my knowledge, she laid a total of 37 complaints

looking at katjas links of the pics, there is a female standing there with a sign that says, there are no bad females only bad laws...... and that says it all......

As usual LDD you talk all around the houses without getting to the point. What I take from what your two posts on this issue tells me is that women and young girls who for whatever reason, when incapable, if brought upon themselves, and are dressed sexily, they are fair game. They may well be responsible for how they look and how they act and how they end up being incapable, but they bear no responsibility for being raped.

Just for information, I had a friend who was raped. She is a very conservatively dressed middle ranking civil servant, a high flyer who was raped while asleep in her car in a lay by. She awoke to two lumps interfering with her clothing and she was in a state almost of undress before she came to. Tiredness after 5 hours continuous driving had sent her into a deep sleep.

Does the fact that she drove for too long make her responsible for her rape? And does the fact that she was a power dressed (very sexy to some people but conservative nevertheless) high flier?

You use the word slut in a way that is offensive to many. It is true that many people, men as well as women use the word to describe themselves, but that is an entirely different thing from using it as an insult to describe another. But men in particular do not truly believe it of themselves however much they may claim otherwise, but many do when referring to women. It is the very meaning of the word that slut walkers are trying to reclaim.

[tenni]

Katja
As I read your last post, a memory came to the forefront. When I was about twenty-two, I was hang'n around with this guy who ended up introducing me to two women that he worked with. Now, as it was, he had sex with both of them. One night the four of us ended up partying at a farmhouse that another friend had rented for the summer. Drinks flowed and a lot of people ended up staying overnight. I ended up going to bed with one of these women. I knew that my buddy had had sex with her and he pointed out several other guys had "scored". I was open and looking forward to it. As we crawled into the bed with our clothes on, we chatted a bit and I kissed her. Not a lot happened before I realized that she was sleeping. I thought damn..... Believe it or not, I did nothing but roll over and go to sleep.

The next morning, she gave me shit for not f*ck'n her! She asked me why I didn't continue stripping her down etc. I told her that she had fallen asleep. She told me that I should not have let that stop me. She admitted that she was faking the sleeping routine and wanted me to stripe her naked to make out. I was a bit dumb founded at my lost opportunity. Now, I do believe in getting at least non verbal clues and maybe poking someone who has fallen asleep.(I'm sure that I shook her more than once ...accidentally on purpose to no avail...lol)

If I had listened to her next morning comments and used that to guide my young head(you pick which one) I could have been accused of rape or something. Now, she seemed to fall into the category of "slut" not only sexually but I later heard from a woman room mate that she was slovenly in keeping her sheets changed etc.

PS. I did end up in a short relationship with the other woman after that weekend and she was sweet. I should have gone with her that first night. My buddy just moved on to more women...slut that he was :bigrin:. Ah...those were the days....lol

[mikey3000]

No darling, such women merely reflect the view of some women in an overwhelmingly masculine world. It is how they have grown up and what have been taught to believe. If you have never heard a man say something similar then you do live in a very closeted world.

Women do not dress to impress or shock other women. They dress most importantly to impress themselves and feel good. Any other consideration is secondary.

"Such women"? Really? So "these" women, such as my wife can't have an opinion of their own that hasn't been molded by the masculine world? These women that have a sense of what is proper and an opinion that differs from yours, it's because they were taught that way (by a masculine dominated world)? Thanks for clearing that point up. So really what you're saying is that any woman who's opinion and values differs from yours is, actually, incapable of any independant thought. Talk about division.

Your train of thought is actually more harmful to women than anything else. Sounds like you're saying that such women, with independant opinions from your ideology, actually don't know any better. Wow.:eek:

[sammie19]

I don't have any issue with Katja's stance, and am all for slut walking. But Tenni and Katja herself probably inadvertantly raise an issue about rape.

These days in this country women may claim rape if a partner or husband has sex with them or begins sex with them while they are sleeping and they don't implicitly say yes . Shades of Julian Assange is it not?

On a number of occasions I have been awakened by a sex partner or lover and my own partner as they so obviously tried to waken me up and turn me on for sex. Most of the time I have gladly, if dopily accepted because I like being wakened up and feeling a partner touching and stroking me. Sex has usually proceeded and is both exciting and fun. I have not used the word "yes" or said anything which can be construed as yes, but the enjoyment and my own sexual appetite at the moment, the act of sex could in no way be mistaken as rape.

Sometimes I have been less than enthusiastic but have not implicitly said "no", but a few times I have, and even with my own partner allowed them to carry on.

In such circumstances, when I have said no, they have have persevered and continued to try and get me going and to change my mind. Sometimes after a few whinges, I have bowed to their pressure and accepted their advances but more often I have continued with refusing their advances. I have never had sex when I have quite clearly and implicitly said no or made it clear that it was not on the agenda at any time in my life.

I have also in just the same way tried to have sex with a sleeping partner. Often with success and we have merrily screwed. Sometimes I have done the whinging and in the end my advances were also accepted but sometimes it was made quite clear to me, quite grumpily at times that my best course was to "forget it". Not easy as those of us in maximum horny mode know, but I dont want sex with an unwilling partner and so miserably I have had to turn over and try and sleep or "entertain" myself.

These examples are with sex partners. It becomes much more clear cut when, as in the case of Katja's friend she was disturbed by those she doesn't know or who she does know but has never had as a sex partner.

Recent judgements and high profile cases havent cleared the air at all, but have in some ways muddied the waters more. I do have mixed feelings as I said, and I do accept that rape cases involving sleeping partners are notoriously difficult to to get to the bottom of.

[mikey3000]

There is a legal term called, "implied consent". If you and your partner have, in the past, had nocturnal relations with out any kind of verbal consent or dissent given, and you do it again and again, then implied consent is has been established and no rape occurrs. But, even with your partner, if a clear no is given and you forcefully continue, then that is rape.

[sammie19]

There is a legal term called, "implied consent". If you and your partner have, in the past, had nocturnal relations with out any kind of verbal consent or dissent given, and you do it again and again, then implied consent is has been established and no rape occurrs. But, even with your partner, if a clear no is given and you forcefully continue, then that is rape.

I know of the concept and thats where the arguments lie and the muck starts getting thrown. And one or other doesnt tell the truth. Maybe even both. The concept appears to favour the male but as a woman that may be my own prejudice which says that, but it is how I see it. It is a difficult area even within the context of rape.

[Long Duck Dong]

As usual LDD you talk all around the houses without getting to the point. What I take from what your two posts on this issue tells me is that women and young girls who for whatever reason, when incapable, if brought upon themselves, and are dressed sexily, they are fair game. They may well be responsible for how they look and how they act and how they end up being incapable, but they bear no responsibility for being raped.

Just for information, I had a friend who was raped. She is a very conservatively dressed middle ranking civil servant, a high flyer who was raped while asleep in her car in a lay by. She awoke to two lumps interfering with her clothing and she was in a state almost of undress before she came to. Tiredness after 5 hours continuous driving had sent her into a deep sleep.

Does the fact that she drove for too long make her responsible for her rape? And does the fact that she was a power dressed (very sexy to some people but conservative nevertheless) high flier?

You use the word slut in a way that is offensive to many. It is true that many people, men as well as women use the word to describe themselves, but that is an entirely different thing from using it as an insult to describe another. But men in particular do not truly believe it of themselves however much they may claim otherwise, but many do when referring to women. It is the very meaning of the word that slut walkers are trying to reclaim.

no, I call it as I see it, without taking sides.......

I know females that dress provocatively in order to get a males attention and desire..... and that is seen by them as acceptable, but when other males also pay attention and react, the female gets annoyed with males thinking she is a easy lay.......

that is where a double standard is being applied..... its ok for me to dress how I want, for the purposes I want.... but if the wrong people react to the way I am dressed and the message I am trying to convey to somebody... its not my fault, its their fault......

most street walkers do not power dress in business suits, they dress provocatively for a reason... to convey a message..... and that is part of what can help attract a client.........

mannerism and behievour and how a person is dressed, conveys messages to other people... but the slutwalk is about saying, we are allowed to do that, its our right to do that.... your reaction to it, is wrong and not our fault, even when we do it to get the same type of reaction.........

now in the case of your friend, she was in a power suit, in a car.... and got raped..... so I am going to ask, why was she asleep on the side of a road, in a car that was unlocked ( assuming it was unlocked )...... why not a motel.....or a rest stop with other traffic ???

katja there is a difference between your friend and a person in a nightclub flirting with the guys and ending up in one of their beds...... but at the end of the day, the choices they make, allow for other things to happen......

I am not excusing the behievour of males or condoning what happens..... but making the point, bloody and simply, that its a constant * blame the males * attitude that arises .......

take two people, both ladies, mature and intelligent, both provocatively dressed, both drink lightly at a night club, are not drunk.... both go home with strange men to the guys places...... both have implied consent sex with the males......
one says it was sexual assault / rape cos she never gave consent......
the other says it was good sex and the guy was nice, even tho she never gave consent.....

both males are guilty of sexual assault / rape now.... but one is fine, cos the female wanted sex with him, liked him and enjoyed it.....and the chances of her laying a complaint against him, using the *rules * of implied consent is not consent, are very low..... the other guy however, could be charged with sexual assault / rape.......

that simply and bluntly, is my point katja..... women want laws and rights.... and the right to apply them as they see fit when they see fit.... but when it suits them, apply them and blame the male.....

the fact that both women went to a club, met strangers, went to the strangers houses, got into bed with them naked, are issues that we are supposed to ignore.. cos a woman got sexually assaulted / raped.... and the fact that she could have gone home alone, is something we are also supposed to ignore.... cos its a womans right of choice.....

we have condoms, birth control pills, morning after pills, personal alarms, car alarms, house alarms, locks on windows and doors etc etc..... and personal choice..... what appears to be lacking, constantly... is personal responsibility.....
the ladies could have gone home to their own beds alone..... and avoided any issues.... and demonstrated personal responsibility for their health, safety and well being.... instead of going to strangers houses and bed, and demonstrating the double standards that result in the male getting blamed

[mikey3000]

... and I do accept that rape cases involving sleeping partners are notoriously difficult to to get to the bottom of.
:bigrin:




that simply and bluntly, is my point katja..... women want laws and rights.... and the right to apply them as they see fit when they see fit.... but when it suits them, apply them and blame the male.....


And obviously none of the responsibility for their actions. That's what it is, All the rights and none of the obligations for equality.

[Long Duck Dong]

I know of the concept and thats where the arguments lie and the muck starts getting thrown. And one or other doesnt tell the truth. Maybe even both. The concept appears to favour the male but as a woman that may be my own prejudice which says that, but it is how I see it. It is a difficult area even within the context of rape.

in a lot of cases, it does favour the male, as it uses a established pattern based around the female and often the couple........

at the same time, it establishes a pattern of the male behievour.... cos once, may be wired crosses, but a pattern of forced sex, is a indication that reflects badly on the male......

the trouble with implied consent, is that its implied consent.... and more often than not.... implied consent and NO are used more than YES with sex..... and that is where the * I never said yes * problem arises....

its something that me and DD have talked extensively about, and I stated clearly that I am guilty of sexual misconduct with her, even when she wanted it by definition of the law, cos consent was never given.....
however as a male that never gave consent either..... legally we were both in the wrong.... yet if we both laid complaints, I would have got laughed at.... DD's would have got followed up on......

females think its hard to be heard with a rape complaint, try being a male and laying a complaint against a female.... as the same rule applies.... consent was never given..... but there is the thinking that a female can not rape a male.....

consent is consent and it goes both ways, not one.... yet you do not see any ladies talking about how wrong they are for sexually assaulting their male partners, cos the partner never said yes to sex

[DuckiesDarling]

Yes, babe, we did talk extensively about it due to the fact that one of your ex's is one of those "sluts" (yep the word fits and I know you don't like it, but she is both by the formal meaning of dirty and the informal meaning of sleep with anything with a dick) who would constantly accuse a man of sexual assault just because he wanted nothing to do with her anymore.

As someone who was almost raped at a party by a black male that was there and then raped by my husband when I told him I wanted a divorce, I have some experience with the way it feels. I am always conscious of gestures and looks and touches that may make a male feel he is entitled to sex, I'm also conscious of things that may make a male feel pressured. If I was an extreme bitch, yeah I could have said something because I know you don't keep archives of convos we had on msn and I had deleted mine before the trip in case the ex broke in and spied on my pc. But that was not the kind of person I am and that is never a fear you would have with me.

But I do acknowledge there are both women and men that do not play fair in the sexual game and unfortunately the legal advantage does seem to go to the females. Here in the US though, it is acceptable to talk about the sexual promiscuity of the rape victim in court. The defense will try to make the jury think she "deserved it" or that she was "asking for it". They will even try to make the jury think she is lying about saying no in a case where there may not have been too much violence. In those cases they sometimes try the "rough sex" defense, case in the point Preppie Killer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Emmet_Chambers)

Now I don't believe anyone asks for it (apart from those that participate in Rape Play in BDSM) and that a man or a woman should be able to stand naked in front of anyone and say No and be left alone. In a perfect world that would happen, we live in an imperfect world and it's time we quit trying to pretend we don't. There are sensible precautions for both men and women to take and they should take them. Will it prevent all rapes? Nope, but it will cut down on the ones that are a matter of opportunity.

[Katja]

"Such women"? Really? So "these" women, such as my wife can't have an opinion of their own that hasn't been molded by the masculine world? These women that have a sense of what is proper and an opinion that differs from yours, it's because they were taught that way (by a masculine dominated world)? Thanks for clearing that point up. So really what you're saying is that any woman who's opinion and values differs from yours is, actually, incapable of any independant thought. Talk about division.

Your train of thought is actually more harmful to women than anything else. Sounds like you're saying that such women, with independant opinions from your ideology, actually don't know any better. Wow.:eek:

Mikey, don't read into my comment something that which is not there. The statement was made as a recognition of a reality that the world we live in was shaped and still is shaped substantially by the attitudes and actions of men. 'It's a man's world' is an old song and an old cliche and it remains true to this day.

Do not misunderstand me. I am no radical feminist. I am not even active in feminist issues nor do I rant and rave about men being shits, but I do recognise that the attitudes that most of us have are those which are formed when we are young. Even today after decades of change where the rights of women have changed and we have in theory (roughly) legal equality, equality still eludes us because the pervading view of the world is that of men.

The last thing I want is for everyone to think as I do. I do not have an ideology as you put it. I do believe in some things, and one of those things is that I believe that the man's world still exists and remains strong and it is the man's world which shapes our perceptions of the world. That this may be less than it once was in the west is true, but equally true it has not altered that much even after 50 years of feminism.

Women, even within that man's world can and do have independent thought. Even that which disagrees with my own. I do not have a monopoly on that, but we all have to recognise that within mainstream or radical thought, how we think is influenced by what has gone before for the great majority of us. It is incredibly difficult and no mean feat for people to think outwith the perameters of upbringing and the world around them.

Even the most radical feminist is greatly influenced by the male world and male attitudes however much they may protest that claim. That is the point I was trying to make. We may react and try and change things, and to think differently, but the fact that we are influenced by what went before is undeniable. We are often hamstrung by it. People have independent thought within the mainstream, and others outwith. There are differences within each, but each of us is influenced by what is around us.

We are all slaves to our perceptions of the world and that is what determines how we use what independent thought we may have.

. .

[Katja]

I am not excusing the behievour of males or condoning what happens..... but making the point, bloody and simply, that its a constant * blame the males * attitude that arises .......



After one has been raped by a man who else does one blame?

[Long Duck Dong]

After one has been raped by a man who else does one blame?

after anybody has been raped by anybody...... females can rape too.....

one statement, different words..... but its shows the difference between me and you...... I do not need to blame somebody and I hold everybody equal

[Katja]

after anybody has been raped by anybody...... females can rape too.....

one statement, different words..... but its shows the difference between me and you...... I do not need to blame somebody and I hold everybody equal

As do I LDD. So when you are raped you will blame no one? How very noble and magnanimous of you.

That some women rape is undeniable, but that it is men who are by far and away the overwhelming perpetrators of rape in general, and rape against women in particular, is equally so.

[Long Duck Dong]

As do I LDD. So when you are raped you will blame no one? How very noble and magnanimous of you.

That some women rape is undeniable, but that it is men who are by far and away the overwhelming perpetrators of rape in general, and rape against women in particular, is equally so.

snorts.... no, I take responsibility for my actions ...... laying the blame is easy, but often the blame lays in part with me as well.....unless arguments only happen with one person debating with themselves...... and rape is no different... you can not be raped if you are not there.... and in a lot of cases, it could have been avoided....

rape and sexual assault is not a event, its a definition applied to a event.... a legal definition........ and like I said, its a bloody sight harder to have a female charged with sexual assault and rape, than it is for a male to be charged......

a lot of the reason why, is that society and the legal profession do not believe that females can rape..... and if they did, a lot more females would be a lot more careful about what they did....... and we would see a lot more females held accountable for their behievour.......

if females want to be sluts, they can, its personal choice, but guys like me, don't have to touch them or tolerate them, we are free to tell them to fuck off and leave us alone..... cos guys like me know, that sluts can be nothing but trouble...... and we perfer females with dignity and self respect.....
not females that will use their bodies to get somewhere in life

[Diva667]

snorts.... no, I take responsibility for my actions ...... laying the blame is easy, but often the blame lays in part with me as well.....unless arguments only happen with one person debating with themselves...... and rape is no different... you can not be raped if you are not there.... and in a lot of cases, it could have been avoided....

rape and sexual assault is not a event, its a definition applied to a event.... a legal definition........ and like I said, its a bloody sight harder to have a female charged with sexual assault and rape, than it is for a male to be charged......

a lot of the reason why, is that society and the legal profession do not believe that females can rape..... and if they did, a lot more females would be a lot more careful about what they did....... and we would see a lot more females held accountable for their behievour.......

if females want to be sluts, they can, its personal choice, but guys like me, don't have to touch them or tolerate them, we are free to tell them to fuck off and leave us alone..... cos guys like me know, that sluts can be nothing but trouble...... and we perfer females with dignity and self respect.....
not females that will use their bodies to get somewhere in life

Holy objectification, Batman!

:tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethical_Slut

[Katja]

Once again do you waffle on and attempt, deliberately or because you cant quite grasp the issue, to distract from the issue. Slut Walks is about women and girls being able to go out and have a good time, or just live their lives without being victimised, harrassed, considered sluttish or raped because of how they dress. It is not about women being capable of rape, or women who sleep with people to get on in life, or those who have no dignity or respect for themselves. It is about women period. Women having the right to live their lives unhindered and without fear,

Most of us take responsibility for our actions. That not everyone does isn't relevant. If a woman (or a man) is incapable because of having drunk too much or for any other reason should they not still be.safe from being beaten up, sexually assaulted or raped? A victim of any assault may be responsible for the error of judgement in getting themselves into a situation where they are assaulted or worse, but they are not responsibible for the assault itself.

I was never raised to ignore or be contemptuous of those who are less fortunate than myself. It is not in my nature to take advantage of anyone who who is unable to fend for themselves. Nor should those who rape, but sadly they do and often.

Your posts often go on interminably about responsibility. Rapists invariably go on about not being responsible because of how a woman is dressed or how she acts. The 'they asked for it' syndrome. Women, even those who you call slut are not responsible for being raped. They did not ask for it. The only person responsible for that event, and it is an event. a nasty and despicable event in the life of a victim, is that person who committed the assault. All your waffle and distraction cannot change that fact.

[Katja]

Holy objectification, Batman!

:tongue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ethical_Slut

Thank you Diva. A very good read it is too.:) I highly recommend it.

[Bisexual Explorer]

Who would justify a murder because the victim got the killer angry? Who would justify theft because the victim made the thief envious about her jewelery? Who would justify rape because the victim got the raper turned on? The answer is nobody. End of topic!

My concern is that slut walks may trivialize the very serious issue. There has got to be a better way to address this problem.

g

[DuckiesDarling]

Once again do you waffle on and attempt, deliberately or because you cant quite grasp the issue, to distract from the issue. Slut Walks is about women and girls being able to go out and have a good time, or just live their lives without being victimised, harrassed, considered sluttish or raped because of how they dress. It is not about women being capable of rape, or women who sleep with people to get on in life, or those who have no dignity or respect for themselves. It is about women period. Women having the right to live their lives unhindered and without fear,

Most of us take responsibility for our actions. That not everyone does isn't relevant. If a woman (or a man) is incapable because of having drunk too much or for any other reason should they not still be.safe from being beaten up, sexually assaulted or raped? A victim of any assault may be responsible for the error of judgement in getting themselves into a situation where they are assaulted or worse, but they are not responsibible for the assault itself.

I was never raised to ignore or be contemptuous of those who are less fortunate than myself. It is not in my nature to take advantage of anyone who who is unable to fend for themselves. Nor should those who rape, but sadly they do and often.

Your posts often go on interminably about responsibility. Rapists invariably go on about not being responsible because of how a woman is dressed or how she acts. The 'they asked for it' syndrome. Women, even those who you call slut are not responsible for being raped. They did not ask for it. The only person responsible for that event, and it is an event. a nasty and despicable event in the life of a victim, is that person who committed the assault. All your waffle and distraction cannot change that fact.

Funny you call it waffling on then you turn around and start saying what he has already said. That is about taking responsibility. Yes, most of us, as in HUMANS not just male or female, take responsibility but all too often many don't and that's what makes the papers. You posted this thread because you thought having a "Slut Walk" was important. Yet you don't seem willing to agree that many of us see problems that won't be dealt with by a "Slut Walk" and that it only focuses on a tiny part of a crime that goes often unreported because of circumstances of the crime. Furthermore, if you go back and find one of LDD's post regarding unwanted sexual advances you will see that he has also been the victim of sexual assault. So you with all of your experience ignore one person's comments about sexual assault because they were a female victim and focus on another person's opinions about sexual assault because he is a male. Grow up, Katja, really the world will be a better place if we ALL grow up.

[mikey3000]

Mikey, don't read into my comment something that which is not there. The statement was made as a recognition of a reality that the world we live in was shaped and still is shaped substantially by the attitudes and actions of men. 'It's a man's world' is an old song and an old cliche and it remains true to this day.

Do not misunderstand me. I am no radical feminist. I am not even active in feminist issues nor do I rant and rave about men being shits, but I do recognise that the attitudes that most of us have are those which are formed when we are young. Even today after decades of change where the rights of women have changed and we have in theory (roughly) legal equality, equality still eludes us because the pervading view of the world is that of men.

The last thing I want is for everyone to think as I do. I do not have an ideology as you put it. I do believe in some things, and one of those things is that I believe that the man's world still exists and remains strong and it is the man's world which shapes our perceptions of the world. That this may be less than it once was in the west is true, but equally true it has not altered that much even after 50 years of feminism.

Women, even within that man's world can and do have independent thought. Even that which disagrees with my own. I do not have a monopoly on that, but we all have to recognise that within mainstream or radical thought, how we think is influenced by what has gone before for the great majority of us. It is incredibly difficult and no mean feat for people to think outwith the perameters of upbringing and the world around them.

Even the most radical feminist is greatly influenced by the male world and male attitudes however much they may protest that claim. That is the point I was trying to make. We may react and try and change things, and to think differently, but the fact that we are influenced by what went before is undeniable. We are often hamstrung by it. People have independent thought within the mainstream, and others outwith. There are differences within each, but each of us is influenced by what is around us.

We are all slaves to our perceptions of the world and that is what determines how we use what independent thought we may have.

. .

Wow. That is the best back-peddle post I've seen in a while. Cudos to you. But I don't buy it. You clearly let your true feelings shown. I'm surprised at you, Katja.

[Katja]

Funny you call it waffling on then you turn around and start saying what he has already said. That is about taking responsibility. Yes, most of us, as in HUMANS not just male or female, take responsibility but all too often many don't and that's what makes the papers. You posted this thread because you thought having a "Slut Walk" was important. Yet you don't seem willing to agree that many of us see problems that won't be dealt with by a "Slut Walk" and that it only focuses on a tiny part of a crime that goes often unreported because of circumstances of the crime. Furthermore, if you go back and find one of LDD's post regarding unwanted sexual advances you will see that he has also been the victim of sexual assault. So you with all of your experience ignore one person's comments about sexual assault because they were a female victim and focus on another person's opinions about sexual assault because he is a male. Grow up, Katja, really the world will be a better place if we ALL grow up.

The issue is about women. That is what Slut Walks are about. It is they who are being considered sluttish and told to stop being so provocative and dress more in keeping with the ideas of a few men. It is they who are receiving the criticism not men. That is why these walks and the movement began and is being carried on around the world.

I am sorry that LDD or any man has been sexually assaulted. It should not be, but this is about a particular attitude which is predominantly about women and women have reacted in protest. The remarks which were the catalyst for Slut Walks were not remarks aimed at men and that is an important thing to remember.

I may never have been raped, but I have like probably most women around the world been sexually assaulted. More than once too.

How many of us have been jostled and felt a hand grab our backside or breasts in crowded steet or a bus or train? How many of us as we walk down the street have had a hand thrust between our legs or up our skirt? Millions of us, probably even most. These things happen to us from children. We may or may not be able to prosecute or often even remonstrate with the offender. Often we do not even know which of the crowd around us was the offender.

The vast majority of sexual assaults like the vast majority of rapes go unreported and unpunished sometimes because often women think it too trivial to act upon it and call in the authorities. But a light deliberate stroke upon a breast by one who has not been invited to is a sexual assault.The vast majority of those who commit those assaults are male, and they do it because they think they can, and that they will get away with it.

That many men are subject to such assaults is true, but on nowhere near the scale that such assaults happen to women. Women are considered far easier prey and that is another issue which we should not forget.

This is not about men and the rape of men. It is not about how they are trivialised and told how to dress and is not about how authority victimises men. Men are in general treated very differently and if you believe otherwise you delude yourself. This issue and the movement and walks it has spawned is about women and the trivialisation of who they are by those in authority, and about those who feel they have no right to dress as they wish and who feel that because of how they clothe themselves, women are in some way responsible should they be raped and are in effect 'asking for it'. Rape is a central issue as is how women attire themselves. Neither is the whole issue.

LDD and yourself do women a disservice by trying to make the issue something it is not and distracting from its message and its purpose.

[Katja]

Wow. That is the best back-peddle post I've seen in a while. Cudos to you. But I don't buy it. You clearly let your true feelings shown. I'm surprised at you, Katja.

Darling, forgive me, but I do believe your comprehension of my words is sadly lacking.:)

And its back pedal.;) And I am in no way doing that either.

[StockyAsian]

It is incredibly difficult and no mean feat for people to think outwith the perameters of upbringing and the world around them.

. .

It's pretty petty and arrogant to correct someone's spelling when your spelling is not perfect. By the way, it's parameters.

[Katja]

It's pretty petty and arrogant to correct someone's spelling when your spelling is not perfect. By the way, it's parameters.

We all make typos, but you're right. It was petty even although it was the meaning of the word I was correcting rather than the spelling. My apologies to Mikey.

[mikey3000]

It's pretty petty and arrogant to correct someone's spelling when your spelling is not perfect. By the way, it's parameters.

Merci, mon ami. :bigrin:

[mikey3000]

We all make typos, but you're right. It was petty even although it was the meaning of the word I was correcting rather than the spelling. My apologies to Mikey.
Your apologies are accepted. Just nex time don't be so quick to paint all women with the same brush. Most are very capable of inteligent and independant opinions. :tongue:

[BiBedBud]

Back in my hay-day, and well into my thirties; I used to spend a lot of time in nightclubs, mostly dance clubs, or what some here will call ‘raves’. (I mean, a lot of time, often five nights a week.) The bulk of this was in my home town, Toronto, which has a fantastic club scene, with more than something for everyone of every taste and predilection. It is based on this breadth of rich experience that I am writing this post.

First, understand the environment: If you pack a few hundred or a couple of thousand people into a nightclub, on (a) dance floor(s), it’s gonna hot-up, big time. I mean the physical temperature and the humidity from all those bodies, all jammed-in tight and in motion, often vigorously so – even if it’s in the middle of a Canadian winter, and there are fans blasting freezing cold, outside air into the middle of the club – that’s always going to be a hot and humid environment. In my experience: the better the club; the better the music; and the better the crowd; the more heat and humidity that you will find there. These are the “ground realities”.

In situations like these, IMO, the most suitable attire for the ladies in attendance consists of revealing clothing, with short skirts, low-cut tops and exposed midriffs not just being “in-style”, but even necessary on many nights, and from my POV, this is very much preferred and appreciated!!! It is also a fact that if it weren’t for such ladies showing up for a good time, most guys wouldn’t go there either, no matter how cheap were the drinks or how good was the DJ. The ladies in attendance are essential for the success of a nightclub, which is why many clubs waive cover charges and offer discounted drinks for ladies. Just to underscore my point here: Scantily clad ladies are essential for the nightclub industry. Gay clubs that cater to men may not go this distance to attract ladies, but in my experience, there are always at least a couple of groups of ladies in any “happening” gay club, who are there to have a good time amongst themselves, without getting hit-on all night long by drunken straight men. (Some of the best club music is heard in gay clubs – that’s also a fact I can attest to.)

Attractive young women in revealing clothes, shaking-it-up on the dance floor while gulping down alcoholic beverages and flirting with guys like me – these wonderful women were my purpose in life for many years, and just being near them gave me such pleasure that it often didn’t matter if I went home alone afterward. Just being around them, and chatting them up at the bar or in a booth, or on the rooftop patio, etc.; these times are among my happiest.

I learned many things through this period in my life, and had many fantastic nights out on the town. Among the more basic lessons I learned, was that young women who have been drinking and are wearing skimpy clothing, and who are flirtatious and fun-loving – they may or may not be “sluts” – and whether or not they are sluts is really of no concern to an upstanding man like myself, because whoever or whatever she is, I am always a Gentleman, even when I am coaxed into becoming a wild animal.

“Stop” means stop. “No” means no. It’s all quite simple.

Of course, Gentleman, if you play your cards right, these two words will never be spoken to you, because you’ll not be doing anything that’s unwelcome in the first place. It’s really a travesty that many men are absolutely clueless about seduction and reading the cues offered by the ‘objects’ of their desire. Reading cues has absolutely nothing to do with judging how a woman is attired or how many cocktails she has consumed. On those odd occasions when a woman’s wishes cannot be ascertained from observation alone, I’ve found that it is best to speak frankly about one’s desires and intentions, and see how she responds.

It truly doesn’t matter what she’s wearing or how much she’s had to drink, unless she’s passed-out, whereupon common courtesy would dictate that a Gentleman should take the best care of his ‘charge’ that he possibly can; which usually means making sure she’s comfortable and safe, and most important of all, that she’s not passed-out on her back, which runs the risk of her vomiting while she’s passed-out, and asphyxiating on her vomit. Drunken people should always be put to bed on their sides or on their belly, so that if they do vomit it won’t kill them. Speaking from (rather too much) experience, I have escorted numerous young women safely into bed who’ve had waaaay too much to drink, and I’ve never, ever even considered any kind of transgression against them. (To be clear here; NO, I've never had sex with an unconscious person.) If I can manage it, I will try to get her to “toss her cookies” before she goes “out for the count”, and if possible, I’ll get her to drink a whole bunch of water and swallow a multivitamin and maybe a pair of Advils before she hits the pillow. I’ll then spend at least an hour or two making sure she doesn’t roll-over onto her back, for reasons I’ve just explained.

Some of these drunken young women have been friends, friends of friends, lovers, girlfriends, acquaintances, coworkers, and a couple of times, they’ve even been absolute strangers; each of whom may or may not have exhibited outward signs of “sluttiness” at one point in time or another. In every instance, I have done my utmost to take proper care of them, because that’s merely the decent thing to do. (NB: “Outward signs of sluttiness” are not definitive testaments to actual, bona fide sluttiness. Indeed, some very slutty people would seem to be quite prim and proper to the uninformed observer.)

In summation, I’d like to offer the following points:

1. Dressing like a “slut” does not make you one. Sometimes, “slutty clothing” is preferable.
2. To paraphrase Forest Gump, “Slutty is, as slutty does”. Dress, drunkenness and solicitous dancing have nothing to do with it.
3. So-called “sluts” (of whatever gender) are people first of all. How they conduct themselves with others should be of no concern to any third-party.
4. Regardless of anyone’s supposed or alleged or perceived “sluttiness”, “Stop” means stop. “No” means no. It’s really quite simple.
5. From the ‘Old Testament’, I’d like to offer the following quote: “Judge not, lest ye be judge.”

If you disagree with any of my five points, then you should move to Saudi Arabia where you’ll find more like-minded people. You can live there without being offended by other people’s clothing, or lack thereof. If you see a woman who is showing too much ankle under her burkha, you can beat her with a stick. If you find an actual “slut”, you can bury her in the sand up to her waist and throw stones at her until she is dead – if that’s what it takes to uphold your high standard of “propriety”.

[mikey3000]

Firstly, I too am also a child of the Toronto club scene. Raves were the best! And yes, the scantily dressed girls were definitely a necessity. Geez, all the head I got from those nice girls, a few times right out on the dance floor without ever having to ask. Yes, so respectable. Lucky I never caught anything.

Secondly, those girls you describe in Saudi Arabia, are usually treated like that by their families AFTER they have already been raped. Hardly a fair conparison.

[Katja]

Your apologies are accepted. Just nex time don't be so quick to paint all women with the same brush. Most are very capable of inteligent and independant opinions. :tongue:

I have never painted all women with the same brush so your comprehension of plain English still eludes you. Which is why I used the expression 'such women' to which you so quickly took exception. I also used the words 'some women' in the same sentence which further emphasises the point.

[StockyAsian]

Merci, mon ami. :bigrin:

De rien, mon ami. ;)

[mikey3000]

No darling, such women merely reflect the view of some women in an overwhelmingly masculine world. It is how they have grown up and what have been taught to believe.
Um, no lack of comprehension here Honey. The such and some you refer to are women who's opinions differ from yours.

[chgodad]

Why do some minds, even brilliant legal minds, seem to think of rape as a sexual act.... it is an act of violence.

[Light_and_Dark]

Alright i dont post here much but i have to say this. Yes a woman dressed as a slut should not be treated as a slut. I very much would prefer my women dressed in much more showy clothing as i enjoy it. Thing is humans are a form of animals that means and no offense to the gay community but this is true they were created and designed to enjoy the looks of the opposite sex. Women were meant to look good to straight men PERIOD there is no rebuttle to that. On the other side of that coin men were designed to appeal to a womens sense of attraction atypically the way he feels and smells. Myself will never rape a women because she likes men to look at her but because we are still animals that side will show more when women appeal to it.

In response to a post made by someone awhile ago that women dress sluttish for their own feelings of feeling good about their body...here is a question when a woman is showing off her body to feel good about herself in slutty clothes.....who is she showing it to not her self...but to others. Now i am not saying that men have the RIGHT to rape her or sexually assault but that is an end result of what might happen....you light a stick of dynamite and set it on top of a barrel of gasoline and what will happen? Common phrase goes "It takes two to tango". It is not 100% the woman's fault that she got raped but to some extent she is at fault by merely putting herself in that situation the man is mainly at fault but she is as well. AGAIN I DO NOT ADVOCATE TRUE RAPE IN ANY SENSE I BELIEVE IT IS WRONG IN ALL ASPECTS PERIOD.

About the propriety of how a woman dresses yes i believe that there is a level of what is decent and what is not. Walking down the street where children can see there must be a level of decency, or else all you are doing is causing a removal of societal values that are not yours to do....In essence a woman dressing like a slut is RAPING everyone around her. In America it is considered sexual assault to give a woman elevator eyes essentially eye fucking her. If a woman is dressed like a slut in an area where it is not acceptable and no one has any control but be forced to look at her then she is causing a rape to that society without society will will go back to beating women and dragging them in caves to claim as our wives. Now if a woman wants to go to a club or bar or out to dinner late at night in a restaurant where you would not expect to see children etc etc. and she dresses like a slut then i believe she should have that right without having to worry about being raped. So yes women dressing like sluts just because they feel they deserve to is wrong....they are not taking the rights of everyone around them into consideration period. For example i have a few gay friends now i am not an avid supporter of the gay community myself and very highly disagree with it even though my gf is roughly 90% lesbian. I am in no way a gay basher and my friends that are gay know when i use the terms i do it merely to get a point across but they also know that i will react and end the friendship if they flirt with me or their partners flirt with me because i myself am straight...i have no problem hanging with them despite them being gay but it is within my rights not to be hit on by them JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY. So just because a woman WANTS to dress like a slut to make herself feel better does not mean that she should have the right to FORCE her body on others. Yes there is the whole oh if you dont want to see it look away but the point is the moment you realize you seen it you have already been violated in a way that you wish you had not. The moment a man rips a woman's clothes off to rape her she has been violated in a way she does not want.

Now mind you i do approve of the slut walks but that is merely because i highly enjoy the privilege of looking...if attractive women want to show off their bodies to the world in the right proprietress setting(ie where you are not infringing on others rights to not see you dressing like a slut) then i am all for it. The problem is not in men or women the problem is in both men and women.

Now i also read arguments about not able to give consent while intoxicated...the truth is first off i believe that intoxication is not a loss of choice but an inner freeing of what you really want to do....but here is a question on average and hypothetically.
"Woman dressed like a slut goes to a club first thing she does to help her mingle and enjoy dancing that night(all she intends on doing) goes to the bar and orders a few shots(ie making her part of the category of being not able to give consent). She proceeds to get on the dance floor and dance with a guy she finds attractive, well after awhile the dancing gets hot both parties are getting turned on and they head out laughing and touching each other they get to her apt. and start having passionate sex....what do you think is the first thing he did when he got to bar? He had a few shots himself....so the question is who is able to give consent in that situation? the law says the woman but why is the man able to give consent? or even UNDERSTAND the lack of consent when the entire thing is just going smoothly. Despite him being as drunk as she is after that passionate night where both parties consented while drunk the next day when she wakes up next to him and realizes what she did she can claim rape and it will stick so...maybe in other countries men might get better treatment but in the US. things are a bit different women do have the upper hand...I believe if both parties consent while drunk neither can claim rape but if someone says no...well no is no.

Just my little rant on this.

Lord of Light.

[Long Duck Dong]

The issue is about women. That is what Slut Walks are about. It is they who are being considered sluttish and told to stop being so provocative and dress more in keeping with the ideas of a few men. It is they who are receiving the criticism not men. That is why these walks and the movement began and is being carried on around the world.

I am sorry that LDD or any man has been sexually assaulted. It should not be, but this is about a particular attitude which is predominantly about women and women have reacted in protest. The remarks which were the catalyst for Slut Walks were not remarks aimed at men and that is an important thing to remember.

I may never have been raped, but I have like probably most women around the world been sexually assaulted. More than once too.

How many of us have been jostled and felt a hand grab our backside or breasts in crowded steet or a bus or train? How many of us as we walk down the street have had a hand thrust between our legs or up our skirt? Millions of us, probably even most. These things happen to us from children. We may or may not be able to prosecute or often even remonstrate with the offender. Often we do not even know which of the crowd around us was the offender.

The vast majority of sexual assaults like the vast majority of rapes go unreported and unpunished sometimes because often women think it too trivial to act upon it and call in the authorities. But a light deliberate stroke upon a breast by one who has not been invited to is a sexual assault.The vast majority of those who commit those assaults are male, and they do it because they think they can, and that they will get away with it.

That many men are subject to such assaults is true, but on nowhere near the scale that such assaults happen to women. Women are considered far easier prey and that is another issue which we should not forget.

This is not about men and the rape of men. It is not about how they are trivialised and told how to dress and is not about how authority victimises men. Men are in general treated very differently and if you believe otherwise you delude yourself. This issue and the movement and walks it has spawned is about women and the trivialisation of who they are by those in authority, and about those who feel they have no right to dress as they wish and who feel that because of how they clothe themselves, women are in some way responsible should they be raped and are in effect 'asking for it'. Rape is a central issue as is how women attire themselves. Neither is the whole issue.

LDD and yourself do women a disservice by trying to make the issue something it is not and distracting from its message and its purpose.

it may be about women... but the other group is males..... you talk about females being objectified.... by who ???? MALES oh course..... so we have males talking from their point of view and hello.... its a issue if a male point of view is presented

freedom of speech and expression, my dear is the right of people to have their views heard too, not just the points of view you want expressed.....

the number of sexual assaults on males, is very high, it happens all the time and never gets reported.... females call it flirting and acceptable if they are doing it..... if males do it, its sexual assault.....

males are treated differently, we struggle to get any female charged with sexual assault and rape, yet we are often accused of it...... and katja, that is the reason why the stats are so biased towards women

check out nz law, if a female assaults a male, its common assault, max sentence 6 months behind bars, but if a male assaults a male, its 2 years behind bars........
hardly the equality that the womans rights advocates of NZ preach about, specially when they were the main supporters of a inequal law.....

if a female comments on a male in a provocative manner in the work place, the chances of it going to the tribunal for sexual harassment are very rare, yet its very common for a female to go to the tribunal and claim sexual harassment......

males are sick to death of being the victims of females with agendas, we are not all assholes, we are not all rapists, we are not all disrespectful of females..... but we also are not believed when we say we are sexually assaulted / raped, we are also presumed guilty the moment a female claims sexual assault, we are seen as responsible for the results of the conduct of woman with loose morals, we are often labelled the mongrel male by solo mothers that use guys to get pregnant so they can have children, money and no commitment.......

you want to try being a male and go out to a night club, watch the females dance around and flirt with males and know that if you touch them, they could scream sexual assault, yet they have no issues with flirting with you and touching you cos in their minds the law should protect them from the males and in their minds, they are not doing anything wrong, its their right to flirt around and touch males.....

there are times that I will not even hug a female friend in a strictly platonic way, when she is crying... because I have to cover my ass....
there have been times that I have slept on a floor rather than in a bed with a female, to cover my ass.......

the issue katja is not one of how females dress and conduct themselves.... its a issue of where females want rules and laws to apply and be enforced, but they want exemptions for their own actions and behievour..... and they are getting it.... in a males world.......

[DuckiesDarling]

No, Katja, quite simply you do women a disservice when you come after people that want everyone to not be attacked by anyone regardless of gender. It's like the blind man insisting that all the lights are out because he can't feel any heat, yet doesn't realise there are products out there that don't produce the heat they are used to. When you get tunnel vision you are blind to any other factors and opinions that are for the better of everyone, not just women and not just men and not just for LGBT.

[Long Duck Dong]

Now i also read arguments about not able to give consent while intoxicated...the truth is first off i believe that intoxication is not a loss of choice but an inner freeing of what you really want to do....but here is a question on average and hypothetically.
"Woman dressed like a slut goes to a club first thing she does to help her mingle and enjoy dancing that night(all she intends on doing) goes to the bar and orders a few shots(ie making her part of the category of being not able to give consent). She proceeds to get on the dance floor and dance with a guy she finds attractive, well after awhile the dancing gets hot both parties are getting turned on and they head out laughing and touching each other they get to her apt. and start having passionate sex....what do you think is the first thing he did when he got to bar? He had a few shots himself....so the question is who is able to give consent in that situation? the law says the woman but why is the man able to give consent? or even UNDERSTAND the lack of consent when the entire thing is just going smoothly. Despite him being as drunk as she is after that passionate night where both parties consented while drunk the next day when she wakes up next to him and realizes what she did she can claim rape and it will stick so...maybe in other countries men might get better treatment but in the US. things are a bit different women do have the upper hand...I believe if both parties consent while drunk neither can claim rape but if someone says no...well no is no.

Just my little rant on this.

Lord of Light.

often consent is not given either, its implied.......as in your case..... so legally both parties are in the wrong...... and neither party gave direct consent

that is the flaw in issues of consent giving..... as yes means yes, no means no applies, but often no is said, yes is implied, not said......

there have been a number of times that I have asked females ( partners ) if they are interested in sex, and its generally when things are getting hot..... when they have asked about it later... I have told them, I was getting clear consent, not implied consent.... and they have replied that they could have said yes, and said later that they said no and I never stopped.....
my answer is that my sperm would be inside them, and that would immediately make me look bad and give credibility to their statement ......

it is one of the things looked at in rape cases.... the other is bruising, scratches etc etc... the signs of sexual intercourse on the lady.....

thats when most females realise there is no way to prove a male was raped by a female ( rape by definition ) it comes down to he said / she said.... and a male has no proof to support his claim...... but a female can carry proof of sexual intercourse for 24 hours or more as proof of sexual intercourse.....

even using a condom, doesn't add any more support to a males claims......

it just goes to show how much more careful a male can be, yet still be accused of wrong doing..... cos it comes down to the word of a woman v's the word of a male, and if consent was actually given.....

[Diva667]

Oh Noes!! Someone on the internets is wrong!!!eleventy111!!!!

[tenni]

Post 44
"Once again do you waffle on and attempt, deliberately or because you cant quite grasp the issue, to distract from the issue. Slut Walks is about women and girls being able to go out and have a good time, or just live their lives without being victimised, harrassed, considered sluttish or raped because of how they dress.....It is about women period. Women having the right to live their lives unhindered and without fear,"

I think that this paragraph sums up the topic of this thread.

I thought that bibedbud wrote a fascinating recollection about the dance scene in Toronto and wrote a well expressed opinion about how to treat women respectfully regardless of their clothing attire.

On a side aspect of the question of dressing like a slut is the issue of nudity. It is not slutty to be nude imo. It seems to require some clothing to emit slut thoughts...or at least some behaviour while being naked. I once knew a young fellow who was fascinated watching the "Fashion Television" show. This programme was about the latest fashions for women. The models were not "slut" like in their clothing. They were however braless and moving in that model like walk that well bounced the goods. Often their nipples were visible under the fabric or the curve of the underside of a breast might be seen as the fabric moved. Young guys might lust after these models in their clothes. They find them hot, sexy but probably not "sluts". Interesting. Would the same woman in a bar be seen as a slut or just hot?

Katja
I think that you do women a good service with your articulate thoughts on this topic posted on this site.
.................................................. ....................

"It is not about women being capable of rape, or women who sleep with people to get on in life, or those who have no dignity or respect for themselves."

I think that this is what "some" people have taken the thread to. If some want to post about male rape victims, may I suggest that they start their own thread.

[Katja]

Um, no lack of comprehension here Honey. The such and some you refer to are women who's opinions differ from yours.

I agree, and within that group there are thousands, probably millions of differing opinions within that group, just as there are many, many differing opinions within any group of people even those who would broadly agree with me. But what you actually said was 'not to be so quick to tar all women with the same brush'.

I am merely pointing out that is the last thing I do. Nor for that matter, do I tar all men with the same brush either.

[Katja]

May I return to the root of the Slut Walk movement. They began as a response by women to remarks made by a policeman and later those of a Justice. They began as a response to a view of authority about some women and how they should dress and a common perception that that if such women wish not to be thought of as easy game they should think about how they dress.

The response we know as Slut Walks was a response by women to a criticism by men; not of men; not of people, but of women. It was a response to a clear inference that women, if they want not to be raped should not dress as 'sluts'. The response is an attempt to take back the word slut from its present day meaning, and to say to the world that how women dress is no invitation to be raped or assaulted, and that women who dress provocatively in a sexy manner are not 'sluts'. It was a movement of women because it was they who had been criticised and were under attack.

Many men support women in these demonstrations because many men are sympathetic to women and understand the issue. They understand that the vast majority of sexual attacks are against women, but they also understand that there is an important issue of freedom which is under attack.

Of course sex attacks against men are reprehensible and appalling attacks against the rights of a human being to live his life without fear of violence being inflicted upon him but it is not they who are addressed as sluts and not men who have been told how they should dress and how to live their lives. The catalysts for slut walking may have been a minor policeman and Justice, but they are representative of a commonly held view in authority throughout the western world in general and the English speaking work in particular. It is that view we protest, and that is why the issue of rape and men, and all the other distractions are not pertinent to this debate.

It was women who were implicitly criticised and if I sound repetitive you are quite right. Because it appears that for whatever reason people do not grasp the point of the origin of Slut Walks and why they are held. It also appears to me, unsurprisingly, that many agree with the policeman and Judge, and authority in general around the world, and wish to descredit by waffle and distraction, deviation and irrelevance, what they are about.

[Long Duck Dong]

yes the remark was addressed at females.... as it is generally females that are scantily clad and act in a provocative manner..... and that is something that attracts the male attention

if it did not work, things like hooters ( a american food chain ) cheerleaders squads, street walkers would dress in power suits

but it works.... so already there is a understanding that scantily dressed females are being sexually provocative and sexually suggestive and that it draws attention faster than a lady that is casually dressed and not standing out.... a message that is reenforced daily......

the message from the police guys, is if you want to be safer, pay more attention to the message you are putting out there, even if its not your intention..... as most females would know that dressing a certain way, will draw attention, be it wanted or unwanted.......

it is not a quarantee that you will be 100% safe, but you will not draw unwanted attention as much.......

regardless of how you argue it and what statements that slutwalkers make, they can not ignore the fact that females have a habit of dressing provocatively and it gets attention, be it wanted or unwanted....
and that guys generally will react, ranging from a simple glance, to eyeballing to much more.....

it is cos you stand out and you send a message that is sexually charged and provocative... regardless of what you may think..... and that is supported by the usage of scantily dressed models to draw attention and a impulse reaction

arguing that the cops were wrong, is fine, do it all you want... but as long as people continue to dress provocatively, with the intention of attracting attention ( and clients )... you will be forever telling the world that they should change the way they look at women that are scantily dressed.... while they see scantily dressed women encouraging sexual advances.......

ever thought of telling streetwalkers to dress in overalls ???? nope... cos its a streetwalkers rights of expression, isn't it.... and they are selling sex.... and encouraging sexual advancements..... the same as many females that are not selling sex and encouraging sexual advances......

so the message you are putting out.... is one that is not supported by the majority of people, including other women, including a large number of women that want sexual advances cos of the way they dress.....

so i wish you luck.... a lot of luck..... cos you can not change human nature ..... and its human nature to be attracted to a sexually provocative female

[Hephaestion]

Firstly - anybody who wants to dress and act as they wish then, theoretically, they should be allowed to do so.

However, common sense needs to kick in at some point. We have loonies roaming around quite freely. The Law only restricts their movement AFTER they have committed a crime and AFTER they have been caught and they are PROVEN to be guilty. Being guilty and being proven to be guilty are two separate issues and not necessarily consequential.

One hinderence is the prevailing logic.

Whilst everybody owes a duty of care towards others, any individual is obliged to pursue a duty of care towards themselves. Recklessness undermines many a good legal case even though the victim was dead right (with possibly the emphasis on dead i.e. bolted horses and barn doors).

.

[sammie19]

I may never have been raped, but I have like probably most women around the world been sexually assaulted. More than once too.

How many of us have been jostled and felt a hand grab our backside or breasts in crowded steet or a bus or train? How many of us as we walk down the street have had a hand thrust between our legs or up our skirt? Millions of us, probably even most. These things happen to us from children. We may or may not be able to prosecute or often even remonstrate with the offender. Often we do not even know which of the crowd around us was the offender.

The vast majority of sexual assaults like the vast majority of rapes go unreported and unpunished sometimes because often women think it too trivial to act upon it and call in the authorities. But a light deliberate stroke upon a breast by one who has not been invited to is a sexual assault.The vast majority of those who commit those assaults are male, and they do it because they think they can, and that they will get away with it.

That many men are subject to such assaults is true, but on nowhere near the scale that such assaults happen to women. Women are considered far easier prey and that is another issue which we should not forget.





This is an occupational hazard for any woman who goes out clubbing, or who is in a crowd of people.

On Friday night my partner and I went to a straight club together with some friends. I may be bi and in a lesbian marriage to my partner but when we go out I enjoy myself and do accept dances when invited to do so by men. I like men and their company, and enjoy dancing with them as I do with my own sex. I do not dance exclusively with my partner or friends because I am out to have fun and enjoy myself.

I had danced a couple of dances with one particular guy who was fine when his pal, a little over intoxicated, pissed if u like, wandered over, pushed his friend out of the way and started trying to dance with me. I shook my head and shouted to to him to forget it, and as I turned to walk away he slid his hand inside my dress and gave my tit a quite firm drunken squeeze. My partner had seen the fracas from where she was sitting and stormed over, grabbed him and almost broke his arm. Meg is no shrinking violet and a deceptively powerful woman as one who has been brought up in farming tends to be. To cut a long story short, the guy was bounced out of the club, and banned after I was asked if I wanted to have the police called and charges pressed which I declined to do and which I have always declined to do. Such is the frequency of such assaults in our clubs maybe I should reconsider this stance for the future.

Let me explain the dress I wore because it is relevant. It was a red open fronted mini dress and exposed a lot of flesh at the front but was not worn to either pull guys definitely not to invite gropes and wearing a bra was out of the question because of the style. It was worn because I liked it and to look the best and sexiest I could for myself and my partner. I will not look a frump for anyone when I go out. Is that slutty? Did it deserve some drunken idiot grabbing my tit? No it didn't and no it isn't slutty. It was a party dress of the type almost every woman who clubs would be glad to wear.

That some dimwitted fucking pisshead felt he had the right in his drunken stupor to lay hands on me was his tough luck given the end result. Even his friends disowned him and literally disowned him on the spot and that is an important point. Most men are decent enough to be horrified when they see things like that happen and many do intervene. The thing is to exercise self control and they know that and this idiot's friends werent having their night ruined by his lunacy.

How people dress is important to everyone, and is as I have said in another thread a way of outwardly expressing freely and showing ourselves to best effect. Everyone has a different idea of what that means but to some it is to dress as I do when I go out. Others have different ideas and that is right and proper.

However we go out dressed is not an invite to be raped, groped or humiliated by anyone, and it is not telling the world we are sluts. It is a projection of who we are for at most a few hours and during a particular occasion. Many women dress much more conservatively when they go to work, but that is not telling the world they are an old frump, or dress more casually often scruffily when they go shopping. That doesn't tell the world they are a scruff. Most men understand that, but unfortunately not all do.

This is an issue about women and that is what Kat has been trying to say. It is women who bear the brunt of sexist abuse by authority and many men and it was comments by men in authority about women who made many women react as they have.

Those who say we should act differently and dress less sexily let me ask you these questions. Who are the winners if we are forced to do as this policeman says? Certainly not women. The more prudish among us and the people who want us looking as they want us to look and those who want to crush free expression and make us conform to their idea of womanhood. And would it reduce the number of rapes and sexual assaults? There isn't a shred of evidence that it would. Tell that to the highly sexually provocative 70, 80 and 90 year old who is raped in their own home.

LDD said something about not being able to be raped if we are not there. Thats fine we will stay in, but the number of rapes which occur within the home doesnt give us much confidence that its always safe there, and the majority of women who are raped are not those who are sexually provocative, but women in everyday clothing that the puritanical would gladly accept as safe. I won't be intimidated into acting contrary to my nature and have my free expression squashed because of a threat and anyone who asks that I do asks far too much of me.

We as bisexuals face enough threats to be ourselves as it is and those of us who are bisexual should understand that as much as anyone. Would you stop bisexual activity because of external pressure and the threat of bullying and intimidation? That's another question your should ask yourselves because what some are saying and want us to do is exactly the same thing in respect of women and how they dress..

[csrakate]

so i wish you luck.... a lot of luck..... cos you can not change human nature ..... and its human nature to be attracted to a sexually provocative female

It may be "human nature to be attracted to a sexually provocative female" but it in no way gives permission to touch or molest or to take anything further. THAT response is the responsibility of the one who is attracted. I love chocolate....I see chocolate in a store and I want it....but it is not mine to have.....(unless of course I cave to my cravings and buy it LOL......but I digress). It's time to quit shifting the blame here.

[darkeyes]

We as bisexuals face enough threats to be ourselves as it is and those of us who are bisexual should understand that as much as anyone. Would you stop bisexual activity because of external pressure and the threat of bullying and intimidation? That's another question your should ask yourselves because what some are saying and want us to do is exactly the same thing in respect of women and how they dress..

Right on the nail wee Craigie.. am proud ofya!:bigrin:

[tenni]

"It's time to quit shifting the blame here."

Excellent point Kate!

We are each responsible for how we react and in particular how we may react to a temptation. If someone takes money without permission, they are a thief whether the money was left in the open on a table or hidden deep inside their pocket. The same is true about a woman and any sexual temptation a man may feel. He is responsible for his own actions.

[Long Duck Dong]

rolls eyes.....

at what point is saying NO going to happen......

many of the sexual assaults and rapes over weekends in NZ happen as a result of females not saying NO when they could..... something many cops, doctors and nurses will tell you.......

if a lady goes to a night club, a guy hits on her.... she is not interested in sex, but leads him on cos he is paying for drinks, and a good dancer, so they spend the night enjoying themselves, she gets a lil shitfaced, ends up in bed with him, and one thing leads to another..... she cries rape

why didn't she tell him NO not interested in sex, yes to talking, dancing etc, NO to sex when she had the chance......

having worked at a bar, I already know.... and its something a lot of doormen and bartenders can tell you too..... there are a lot of ladies that will not say NO to sex, cos they are also saying no to free drinks, attention of males, dance partners etc.... by saying no to sex.....

the point I am making... is that personal responsibility starts somewhere..... and you are safer saying NO in a place where there are people, than alone in bed with somebody ......

yes means yes, no means no.... when you say them, makes a LOT of difference......

females have the right and the power to say no..... unfortunately, it appears a lot of them have a lousy sense of timing...... and it makes me wonder if they also put condoms on guys just before the guy cums, instead of at the start......

if no is said to a guy at the start of the night instead of after a number of drinks and dancing etc etc.... then I reckon ( and so do a large number of cops, doctors, nurses and counsellors ) that the number of weekend sexual assaults would drop......

personal responsibility........

in the case of a random stranger attack in a park, you do not have the chance to say no to them at the start of the night.... so it is different and my advice there, is if you can get hold of their balls, rip them off with your nails, teeth etc etc..... cos your life can depend on it......

and its the same thing with a stranger in a night club.... say no if you mean no, at the start of the night and you may well end up alone in your own bed, but sexually safe......

[Long Duck Dong]

sammie I said you can not be raped if you are not there......

there is a difference between a dark park at night and a taxi home.....
there is a difference between a night club and a strangers bed...
etc etc etc

there are choices we can make to limit the risks without removing the fun or the rights..... that was my point.... I am not against people having fun or a good time... I have issues when people have a stance they do not follow... IE not saying no, when they could, to avoid issues... then complaining later on cos it turned to shit

you got assaulted by a drunk male.... not a person you led on and never told you were interested in sex, not a person you flirted with... so there is a large difference between his actions and the actions of a male that has not been told NO at the start of the night and spend the night thinking that you intend to sleep with him, when you don't..

so why a difference in what I say about personal responsibility and that the female has to take responsibility as well and what I am saying to you ????

its simple, like I said.... you didn't do anything to indicate that you were interested in any way, shape or form.... and it was his choice to be a drunken asshole, not yours........

the personal responsibility comes into it, when a person acts or conducts themselves in a way that conveys a message or intention that is not what they intent to do........

you were there and dressed to look nice... not provoke males into hitting on you.....

you were there to enjoy time with your partner and friends, not to flirt with strange guys and lead them on......

etc etc etc

personally, I would have decked the bastard where he stood if I have been there as yes he was out of line and sexual assault and rape is something I have issues with as I have seen the end results, too many times...

unfortunately, many of those times could have been avoided.... some, like yours, could not...... and that is the difference

[csrakate]

at what point is saying NO going to happen......

many of the sexual assaults and rapes over weekends in NZ happen as a result of females not saying NO when they could..... something many cops, doctors and nurses will tell you.......




So what you are saying is that all women are fair game for sex unless they start the evening shouting "NO"????? Come on, LDD.....you're saying that it is implied consent for sex the minute a woman walks into a bar dressed provocatively??? Whatever happened to restraint on the part of the man???
So are you going to tell us that the man "couldn't help himself" because the woman's body looked so damned good???? Rape isn't about sex, it isn't about seduction, it is about POWER.....Quit trying to justify a heinous act.

[Katja]

So what you are saying is that all women are fair game for sex unless they start the evening shouting "NO"????? Come on, LDD.....you're saying that it is implied consent for sex the minute a woman walks into a bar dressed provocatively??? Whatever happened to restraint on the part of the man???
So are you going to tell us that the man "couldn't help himself" because the woman's body looked so damned good???? Rape isn't about sex, it isn't about seduction, it is about POWER.....Quit trying to justify a heinous act.

Ty for articulating better than I have struggled to do over the last few days in a few sentences. There is a lesson in that I do believe.:)

[IanBorthwick]

These Slutwalks are exemplary of the actions of the Feminist Movement, it's all a demand for increased privilege by screaming two things at once:

"Women deserve to be treated equally! Do this by acting like we're children/adults in/capable of making decent decisions and showing ir/responisbility for our own actions!"

It's sick and it's twisted. The entire movement is based on ardent man-hate, lies(such as rape lies, rape culture and "buyers remorse sex") and lock step walking to the tune of Women are Superior unless they don't think like us. And these are based on women attributing themselves the omniscience that God would be envious of(all men stare at my ass/tits/figure) that is as fictitious as "Female Superiority" as well as the demand for the lack of blame the Messiah earned while it's UNearned for their actions.

The Slutwalks took a comment from a policeman that said Perhaps you would be safer dressed differently and blew it up into mythic proportions. I've read the real info this is based on and it makes me sick. A justice took the common sense approach and agreed. ZOMG! Common Sense has no place in the Feminist Regime! Look out, pointing out the truth is a sin and an insult when it's only the truth. Guess what, it won't kill you, but it will sting a little. Get over it.

Dressing to get attention will get you just that, and you WILL get more than you want on occasion if you do this. It's akin to dressing in a bacon shirt and trousers and running with wild dogs, or getting into a KKK white gown and hood and walking into Watts. YOu're going to get a response! That's what you're aiming for. When you get it, if it's not what you wanted, tough. YOu made the decision now you have to own the result, anything less is crediting those women with being simpletons or having the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. Since that's what Feminists are doing, I find that highly insulting...to WOMEN!

Now let's see..someone said the REAL point to this had nothing to do with men. As LDD pointed out it has EVERYTHING to do with men...showing their blame, responsibilty and lack of common sense onto men MAKES it our responsibility because these women, and Feminists in general, can't be told to "Man Up" and realize they have societal obligations.

But most importantly these Slutwalks are a bullshit way to shift even MORE blame at men for their own lack of desire to be a working part of society, and villify men even more. To self vicitimize then cry to the world one shouldn't be responsible for ones own actions is to try to keep alive the false mindset that men can do no right, women no wrong and no matter what women do they are in the right.

Some said "Women suffer most of the rapes..." I won't finish that bullshit statement because it doesn't deserve one more word. It's false. In every way false. Women suffer only 15% of the rapes in the US. Women also only suffer 22% of the violent crimes, that's including murder AND rape. So who is getting the lion's portion then? Men and boys.

Men in institutions are raped, in the US, more than the combined total of all Noninstitutionalized rapes for the top 65 countries. Let that sink in. In the US men and boys are raped by men and, amazingly enough, the boys are sexually assaulted by women in charge in those institutions.

Focusing on a minority event where women CAN control their lives, how they present themselves and protect themselves is denigrating to the intellect, to society and to women. WHat you want with these "Walks" is to get a freer conscience to be stupid, a Hall Pass from Common Sense, a shift of blame, and your only tools are attempts to Shame and insult....pathetic.

http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/69/2/39.extract
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf


Women control 2/3 of disposable income. Women control access to sex, women own all rights of reproduction, and thereby, control men. (Whether they wish to admit it or not) More women than men vote. And, it is not a coincidence that in this society we keep calling a patriarchy, it’s 93% of workplace deaths that are men....the claims of Patriarchy are the call to ignorance and man-hate that rational women deplore.

As a side note, I am a victim of sexual molestation and female rape(I was raped by a female) and I was underage at the time, she was not. Because of this world where feminist jurisprudence and feminist appeal takes the place of common sense and decency, I could get NO ONE to listen, not police, not parents, not school officials. Theirs was the same question that didn't address a DAMN thing,"What would a woman do that to you for? Look at how ugly you are. She ought to sue you for what you've been saying but she nicely didn't."

3 suicide attempts later, I was still alive and forever messed up. Women outnumber men on this planet and we're the hardworking backs that built this society up to the standards set by women's approval. Think you have something to complain about the in the world? There's a cure for that...emotional maturity.

[Long Duck Dong]

So what you are saying is that all women are fair game for sex unless they start the evening shouting "NO"????? Come on, LDD.....you're saying that it is implied consent for sex the minute a woman walks into a bar dressed provocatively??? Whatever happened to restraint on the part of the man???
So are you going to tell us that the man "couldn't help himself" because the woman's body looked so damned good???? Rape isn't about sex, it isn't about seduction, it is about POWER.....Quit trying to justify a heinous act.

no, kate, what I am saying is that most guys will respect a ladies rights..... most guys, unfortunately, not all guys....... and a key difference is when a woman uses the NO means NO power she has......

if guys know where they stand with a woman, then a woman has exercised her right to say no, when its a good time, not a bad time....... and a woman has empowered herself using the stance of yes means yes, no means no.....

one of the feminist stances in nz, is that a woman should be able to go to a club, flirt with males, lead them on, go to the guys place, get naked with him, get into bed with him, play around with him, then say NO, not interested...... cos NO means NO....

that makes about as much sense as into a car with a drunk driver, waiting until they are speeding, down the road, losing control and about to wipe out, then saying, let me out of the car, and complaining cos the driver never stopped and let them out...........

what I am saying simply, is a female has the right of choice on when and how to protect herself.... and there is a big difference between protecting herself at the start of a night, and at the last minute.......

if I was at a club, I would like the woman to tell me where I stand with her, at the club, not while she is in my bed naked, stroking me....... cos if she suddenly said no, I would feel like I had been set up and used the whole night long for her own entertainment...... and that would annoy the hell out of me......
yes, I would respect her wishes immediately, but she would become known as a user and a cock tease.......

the implied consent is when she leaves the club with me freely, gets into my bed freely and strokes me freely....... cos she has not said yes, and she has not said no...... so I can only assume she is interested in me, and not using me.........

based on the remarks in the thread, I still should not be touching her until she clearly says yes....... even if she gets on my cock and rams her tongue down my throat.... unless she has said yes, I should not touch her...... as its sexual assault / rape..... and due to the fact I have not said yes... shes raping me... as I have no said yes either... it was implied consent

yes means yes, no means no..... saying it and when it is said, is the key

so kate, I am merely playing by the rules of the females, and its why I would never leave the club with her, unless I knew she wanted me for the night and has told me clearly, or she wanted a way home, no sex, just safety........

nothing protects me from her ability to say YES at night and NO in the morning..... and how do I prove that I respected her wishes.....

I am very careful who I socialise with now..... and I set very clear boundaries .......... I protect myself against females cos there are some of them out there that set males up, using the no means no rule.......

so there are good and bad amongst us....... but it appears that if a male asks for a clear statement from a female, its wrong for him to know where he stands,.... cos its all about the female and her rights only

[Long Duck Dong]

years ago, I was known as a male that the ladies could trust.... they could turn up in the middle of the night, drunk, get naked, get in my bed and wake up in the morning, without being touched.......

if you had thrown up on yourself, I would put you in the shower, get in myself, naked, wash you down, clean you off, dry you off, put you to bed and you will wake up in the morning and find you have not been touched sexually......

you could walk around the house naked and not get touched.......

now that has all changed...... I would send you up to the hospital.... cos I have to cover my ass..... as even something as simple as grabbing you if you fall over.... can become a accusation of sexual assult......

the world has changed, society has changed..... and even something simple as paying a female a compliment on the way she looks in the workplace, can be regarded as sexual harassment........

it has a lot to do with the fact that people can not longer tell the difference between a gentleman that will respect you and your body, and a person that will use you for sex........

the older generations amongst us, will understand the changes, the younger ones may not see them as clearly....... but it is now a world of sexual expression and sexual freedom and people arguing for their right to be sexually free and expressive.... yet for the rules of past generations to apply......

it is one of the dangers that people warned about during the hippie generation and got called prudes and up tight, conservatives...... now it is happening....... and the complaints are pouring in thick and fast about how people are no longer being respected........

sexual assaults and rapes are on the raise, pregnancies and abortions etc etc, quickie marriage and divorce...... and now people are wanting things to change, when you could go to a dance and not be sexually harassed, where males are gentlemen and respect the ladies, where a female is respected in the home, in town and in the work place

simply, people want the modern world with all the freedoms and rights, but the respect of the 1950's and 60's and you can not have it both ways.....
there is no way to have all the freedom and rights that people want, and all the rules, respect, and quidelines as well......

its what happens when you have too much freedom, too many rights and too many people believing that other people are responsible when it turns to shit

[mikey3000]

These Slutwalks are exemplary of the actions of the Feminist Movement, it's all a demand for increased privilege by screaming two things at once:

"Women deserve to be treated equally! Do this by acting like we're children/adults in/capable of making decent decisions and showing ir/responisbility for our own actions!"

It's sick and it's twisted. The entire movement is based on ardent man-hate, lies(such as rape lies, rape culture and "buyers remorse sex") and lock step walking to the tune of Women are Superior unless they don't think like us. And these are based on women attributing themselves the omniscience that God would be envious of(all men stare at my ass/tits/figure) that is as fictitious as "Female Superiority" as well as the demand for the lack of blame the Messiah earned while it's UNearned for their actions.

The Slutwalks took a comment from a policeman that said Perhaps you would be safer dressed differently and blew it up into mythic proportions. I've read the real info this is based on and it makes me sick. A justice took the common sense approach and agreed. ZOMG! Common Sense has no place in the Feminist Regime! Look out, pointing out the truth is a sin and an insult when it's only the truth. Guess what, it won't kill you, but it will sting a little. Get over it.

Dressing to get attention will get you just that, and you WILL get more than you want on occasion if you do this. It's akin to dressing in a bacon shirt and trousers and running with wild dogs, or getting into a KKK white gown and hood and walking into Watts. YOu're going to get a response! That's what you're aiming for. When you get it, if it's not what you wanted, tough. YOu made the decision now you have to own the result, anything less is crediting those women with being simpletons or having the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. Since that's what Feminists are doing, I find that highly insulting...to WOMEN!

Now let's see..someone said the REAL point to this had nothing to do with men. As LDD pointed out it has EVERYTHING to do with men...showing their blame, responsibilty and lack of common sense onto men MAKES it our responsibility because these women, and Feminists in general, can't be told to "Man Up" and realize they have societal obligations.

But most importantly these Slutwalks are a bullshit way to shift even MORE blame at men for their own lack of desire to be a working part of society, and villify men even more. To self vicitimize then cry to the world one shouldn't be responsible for ones own actions is to try to keep alive the false mindset that men can do no right, women no wrong and no matter what women do they are in the right.

Some said "Women suffer most of the rapes..." I won't finish that bullshit statement because it doesn't deserve one more word. It's false. In every way false. Women suffer only 15% of the rapes in the US. Women also only suffer 22% of the violent crimes, that's including murder AND rape. So who is getting the lion's portion then? Men and boys.

Men in institutions are raped, in the US, more than the combined total of all Noninstitutionalized rapes for the top 65 countries. Let that sink in. In the US men and boys are raped by men and, amazingly enough, the boys are sexually assaulted by women in charge in those institutions.

Focusing on a minority event where women CAN control their lives, how they present themselves and protect themselves is denigrating to the intellect, to society and to women. WHat you want with these "Walks" is to get a freer conscience to be stupid, a Hall Pass from Common Sense, a shift of blame, and your only tools are attempts to Shame and insult....pathetic.

http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/69/2/39.extract
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf


Women control 2/3 of disposable income. Women control access to sex, women own all rights of reproduction, and thereby, control men. (Whether they wish to admit it or not) More women than men vote. And, it is not a coincidence that in this society we keep calling a patriarchy, it’s 93% of workplace deaths that are men....the claims of Patriarchy are the call to ignorance and man-hate that rational women deplore.

As a side note, I am a victim of sexual molestation and female rape(I was raped by a female) and I was underage at the time, she was not. Because of this world where feminist jurisprudence and feminist appeal takes the place of common sense and decency, I could get NO ONE to listen, not police, not parents, not school officials. Theirs was the same question that didn't address a DAMN thing,"What would a woman do that to you for? Look at how ugly you are. She ought to sue you for what you've been saying but she nicely didn't."

3 suicide attempts later, I was still alive and forever messed up. Women outnumber men on this planet and we're the hardworking backs that built this society up to the standards set by women's approval. Think you have something to complain about the in the world? There's a cure for that...emotional maturity.

/\ THIS!!!!!

It's funny how common sense is not so common anymore. It has been replaced by a false sense of entitlement by these feminists that want everything and take no responsibility for anything. Man are those day over. You want to play in the real world, you play by the real rules. You want to be treated like a lady, then you act like one, plain and simple.

[DuckiesDarling]

I think what is getting lost here is that there are many different countries and different parts of countries responding to this. It's not male vs female. It's about rape pure and simple, it happens to both genders, it happens to the young and the old and it gets buried like a dirty secret sometimes.

Katja, you may think slutty dressed women are fine in England. Maybe the English guys know your unwritten rules. But in other parts of the world if a woman dresses a certain way she is looking for something, that doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to tell a guy no and have him respect it, but it's not about looking good for herself, it's about trolling for a mate. Primal responses can be made by both sexes on the base of dress and smell. It's a proven point that men respond more to a woman showing rounded breasts, hourglass shape and wider hips. The brain picks up the estrogen levels indicated by the woman's physical form and responds by increasing testosterone in males. Women are more attuned to smells and react primally to them. When you get down to the primal level of things it makes it clearer that while we may be human, human is a type of animal.

Is rape wrong? Yes, on every conceivable level. But should everyone take responsiblity for how they dress, where they go and what they do while there? Hell yes. I am less at risk of being raped sitting at home reading a book than I am in a nightclub wearing next to nothing and drinking heavily. Common sense...guess Thomas Paine was right after all, it really is uncommon.


Found this link after hearing the story earlier on the news. You will notice they are not calling it rape, but it is what it was. Rape pure and simple at gunpoint. Because the victim was male. If it had been a female it would have been different.

http://www.fox41.com/story/14893443/police-man-forced-to-perform-oral-sex-at-gunpoint

[tenni]

"I think what is getting lost here is that there are many different countries and different parts of countries responding to this. It's not male vs female. It's about rape pure and simple, it happens to both genders, it happens to the young and the old and it gets buried like a dirty secret sometimes. "


Uh. NO it is not about rape. You have misunderstood the meaning of the Slut Walk. It started in Canada and the purpose has been stated several times.

[DuckiesDarling]

"I think what is getting lost here is that there are many different countries and different parts of countries responding to this. It's not male vs female. It's about rape pure and simple, it happens to both genders, it happens to the young and the old and it gets buried like a dirty secret sometimes. "


Uh. NO it is not about rape. You have misunderstood the meaning of the Slut Walk. It started in Canada and the purpose has been stated several times.

Tenni, have you even read the conversation and how it evolved over the last three pages? We have been discussing rape for the last two pages.

[tenni]

That is how long you have been off the topic of the thread then. Start a new thread.

[Long Duck Dong]

That is how long you have been off the topic of the thread then. Start a new thread.

so a thread about slutwalk and how females were told if they do not want to be raped, do not dress like sluts, is going off topic, if rape is being discussed....

ahh are the uk, canada, police, womans rights, slutwalk... allowed to be talked about, cos I would hate to discuss them and take the thread off topic......

from katjas first post

" Slut Walks in the UK are a very new phenomenon, as they are anywhere and originated as a result of a police chief in Canada telling women to get real and not to dress like sluts or they can expect to get treated like sluts and area askng to be raped.

so..... is katja off topic too with her first post, cos she mentioned rape, part of what is being discussed..... or is this just another one of your tantrums cos a hetero woman posted a opinion in a bisexual site

[Katja]

These Slutwalks are exemplary of the actions of the Feminist Movement, it's all a demand for increased privilege by screaming two things at once:

"Women deserve to be treated equally! Do this by acting like we're children/adults in/capable of making decent decisions and showing ir/responisbility for our own actions!"

It's sick and it's twisted. The entire movement is based on ardent man-hate, lies(such as rape lies, rape culture and "buyers remorse sex") and lock step walking to the tune of Women are Superior unless they don't think like us. And these are based on women attributing themselves the omniscience that God would be envious of(all men stare at my ass/tits/figure) that is as fictitious as "Female Superiority" as well as the demand for the lack of blame the Messiah earned while it's UNearned for their actions.

The Slutwalks took a comment from a policeman that said Perhaps you would be safer dressed differently and blew it up into mythic proportions. I've read the real info this is based on and it makes me sick. A justice took the common sense approach and agreed. ZOMG! Common Sense has no place in the Feminist Regime! Look out, pointing out the truth is a sin and an insult when it's only the truth. Guess what, it won't kill you, but it will sting a little. Get over it.

Dressing to get attention will get you just that, and you WILL get more than you want on occasion if you do this. It's akin to dressing in a bacon shirt and trousers and running with wild dogs, or getting into a KKK white gown and hood and walking into Watts. YOu're going to get a response! That's what you're aiming for. When you get it, if it's not what you wanted, tough. YOu made the decision now you have to own the result, anything less is crediting those women with being simpletons or having the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. Since that's what Feminists are doing, I find that highly insulting...to WOMEN!

Now let's see..someone said the REAL point to this had nothing to do with men. As LDD pointed out it has EVERYTHING to do with men...showing their blame, responsibilty and lack of common sense onto men MAKES it our responsibility because these women, and Feminists in general, can't be told to "Man Up" and realize they have societal obligations.

But most importantly these Slutwalks are a bullshit way to shift even MORE blame at men for their own lack of desire to be a working part of society, and villify men even more. To self vicitimize then cry to the world one shouldn't be responsible for ones own actions is to try to keep alive the false mindset that men can do no right, women no wrong and no matter what women do they are in the right.

Some said "Women suffer most of the rapes..." I won't finish that bullshit statement because it doesn't deserve one more word. It's false. In every way false. Women suffer only 15% of the rapes in the US. Women also only suffer 22% of the violent crimes, that's including murder AND rape. So who is getting the lion's portion then? Men and boys.

Men in institutions are raped, in the US, more than the combined total of all Noninstitutionalized rapes for the top 65 countries. Let that sink in. In the US men and boys are raped by men and, amazingly enough, the boys are sexually assaulted by women in charge in those institutions.

Focusing on a minority event where women CAN control their lives, how they present themselves and protect themselves is denigrating to the intellect, to society and to women. WHat you want with these "Walks" is to get a freer conscience to be stupid, a Hall Pass from Common Sense, a shift of blame, and your only tools are attempts to Shame and insult....pathetic.

http://tpj.sagepub.com/content/69/2/39.extract
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf
http://www.nursing.ubc.ca/PDFs/ItsNotWhatYouThink.pdf


Women control 2/3 of disposable income. Women control access to sex, women own all rights of reproduction, and thereby, control men. (Whether they wish to admit it or not) More women than men vote. And, it is not a coincidence that in this society we keep calling a patriarchy, it’s 93% of workplace deaths that are men....the claims of Patriarchy are the call to ignorance and man-hate that rational women deplore.

As a side note, I am a victim of sexual molestation and female rape(I was raped by a female) and I was underage at the time, she was not. Because of this world where feminist jurisprudence and feminist appeal takes the place of common sense and decency, I could get NO ONE to listen, not police, not parents, not school officials. Theirs was the same question that didn't address a DAMN thing,"What would a woman do that to you for? Look at how ugly you are. She ought to sue you for what you've been saying but she nicely didn't."

3 suicide attempts later, I was still alive and forever messed up. Women outnumber men on this planet and we're the hardworking backs that built this society up to the standards set by women's approval. Think you have something to complain about the in the world? There's a cure for that...emotional maturity.

Women hating, darling, is as regrettable and odious as hating men no matter how much you have been hurt and damaged.

In 2000 it was estimated that almost 18% of all American women had endured some form of rape, and statistics have been on the up ever since. How does this square with you claim that women only suffer 15% of rapes?

Institutionalised rape, like rape of men in the outside world is a separate issue. That it goes on cant be denied, but it is a separate category which society within each country is aware of and has to deal with, but that as with rape of females, or men in the outside for that matter, it singularly fails to respond to adequately. That it should do more to prevent such violence is undeniable, but your post is yet another attempt to distract from the issue.

[Katja]

Tenni, have you even read the conversation and how it evolved over the last three pages? We have been discussing rape for the last two pages.

It is about rape, but it is about much more. It is about the right of one part of our community to go about their lives unhindered, unharrassed, unabused and not treated as less than nothing by those in authority and those who believe they should conform to a very blinkered and particular vision of society. It is about the right of those people to have fun and dress as they wish. The right to free expression has been mentioned, and that is what this thread is about. It is why Slut Walks exist.

It is not about responsibility of the individual, because responsibility or no, those singled out should be able to walk free in our countries without abuse, verbal or physical by authority or citizen and as long as they break no law, be accorded the same respect as every other person.

It is about women and young girls because it is they who have been singled out. Not men or anyone else.

[Long Duck Dong]

It is about rape, but it is about much more. It is about the right of one part of our community to go about their lives unhindered, unharrassed, unabused and not treated as less than nothing by those in authority and those who believe they should conform to a very blinkered and particular vision of society. It is about the right of those people to have fun and dress as they wish. The right to free expression has been mentioned, and that is what this thread is about. It is why Slut Walks exist.

It is not about responsibility of the individual, because responsibility or no, those singled out should be able to walk free in our countries without abuse, verbal or physical by authority or citizen and as long as they break no law, be accorded the same respect as every other person.

It is about women and young girls because it is they who have been singled out. Not men or anyone else.


slutwalk is about your right to dress how you want to dress and how you expect other people to treat you with respect and not harass you in any way.......

it doesn't give you automatic protection against assholes, and nor will it.....

argue that point all you want.....


what most people do, with condoms, locks on doors and windows etc, defensive driving courses, protection orders etc is risk minimising..... and even then it doesn't always work....

so the choice is simple, either you change and limit the risks to you... or you continue the way you want to be, and face the fact that one day, you may be a victim of your own actions and choices..... and that your rights never stopped the other person cos they do not care about your rights, you do.....

I am a male, martial artist and ex street fighter and even I am not that stupid that I will place myself in risky situations and say its my right not to have my head kicked in by some asshole having a bad day...... cos it has happened too many times and now I look out for myself and limit the risks

I sincerely hope that none of the ladies on the slutwalk ever end up realising that marching for their rights, means that they are not protected from the assholes in the world, and that we read about them in the obituaries......
cos its not your rights that protect you, its how you limit the risks and take measures that can keep you safe....... and getting raped cos your rights are more important than your personal safety, is sheer stupidity.....

call it misogynistic, call it male arrogance, call it what ever you want..... cos all around the world there are warnings about keeping yourself safe, limiting risks, protecting yourself..... and numerous stories of people that found out their rights never protected them, cos the other person didn't give a shit about rights

[sammie19]

slutwalk is about your right to dress how you want to dress and how you expect other people to treat you with respect and not harass you in any way.......

it doesn't give you automatic protection against assholes, and nor will it.....

argue that point all you want.....


what most people do, with condoms, locks on doors and windows etc, defensive driving courses, protection orders etc is risk minimising..... and even then it doesn't always work....

so the choice is simple, either you change and limit the risks to you... or you continue the way you want to be, and face the fact that one day, you may be a victim of your own actions and choices..... and that your rights never stopped the other person cos they do not care about your rights, you do.....

I am a male, martial artist and ex street fighter and even I am not that stupid that I will place myself in risky situations and say its my right not to have my head kicked in by some asshole having a bad day...... cos it has happened too many times and now I look out for myself and limit the risks

I sincerely hope that none of the ladies on the slutwalk ever end up realising that marching for their rights, means that they are not protected from the assholes in the world, and that we read about them in the obituaries......
cos its not your rights that protect you, its how you limit the risks and take measures that can keep you safe....... and getting raped cos your rights are more important than your personal safety, is sheer stupidity.....

call it misogynistic, call it male arrogance, call it what ever you want..... cos all around the world there are warnings about keeping yourself safe, limiting risks, protecting yourself..... and numerous stories of people that found out their rights never protected them, cos the other person didn't give a shit about rights
The question is whether by dressing sluttily and or sexily women are safer from rape. The answer is that no evidence exists that we are. there is a commonly held perception that we are, but the evidence doesn't support that. There is evidence that women are considered slutty and are victimised and discriminated against by authority and looked down upon by people who disapprove of their dress.

The issue which slut walks challenges is all about trying to force women into the box of conformity and it is that we disagree with.

Most sensible people will do what they can to protect themselves and keep themselves safe. Whether people actually do that or not is up to them, but as has been repeatedly mentioned, it is not about taking responsibility. It is about how we live.

If there is any issue of responsibility involved, it is one of tawdry little men keeping their hands off what doesnt belong to them and their pricks out of places they shouldn't be. But whether a girl dresses sluttily or not no evidence exists that their dress will make them any more or less likely to be raped.

[Diva667]

Like the poor, we will always have criminals with us. The only question is how the folks with authority deal with them.

Do you push it off on "boys will be boys" or do you honestly deal with the issue.

'Cause really? It doesn't matter what the woman wears, it has more to do with the rapist.

Because it's not the museum at fault when someone steals a priceless piece of art. Yes there are safeguards, but that has more to do with alertness and defenses.

I'm willing to bet that conservative Muslim countries have just as high a percentage of rapes (or perhaps slightly higher.)
.

'

Q: Is it the stores fault if people shoplift?

Q: Does a stripper "have" to put out for anybody that wants her or him?

Q: Do we as a society, believe that people have to be on constant guard against the threat of physical violence?

Q: Is it the victim's fault in the case of rape?

It's called the rule of law, which is what civilized societies use in place of vigilantism.

[littlerayofsunshine]

Not that it has much bearing on the topic, but interesting none the less.

Texas man dies while raping elderly woman (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110614/ts_alt_afp/ussexcrime;_ylt=Ar5larsxOsqi3Y5dwzAfkVqs0NUE;_ylu= X3oDMTFpM2ZtMHRvBHBvcwMzOARzZWMDYWNjb3JkaW9uX21vc3 RfcG9wdWxhcgRzbGsDdGV4YXNtYW5kaWVz)

[Long Duck Dong]

what is the point in saying anything.....????

you can argue until the cows come home over who is right and who is wrong and what study says what and whose rights should be acknowledged......and who should be blamed for what etc

the simple fact is, you know the risks, you know the dangers.... you choose.... your safety and wellbeing, or your right to do as you please.......

I spent years helping rape victims and sexual assault victims rebuild their shattered lives..... and hearing them say time and time again about how somebody had changed their whole life in a matter of minutes.... and now, they are trying to learn to live again, one day at a time.....

I live my own hell cos I could have handed over my car keys when i was 16... and I didn't... cos it was my right to drive my car.... and it cost 7 people their lives, including my partner......

sometimes rights are not worth the cost........ I hope none of you ever learn that lesson the hard way.... cos people like me and ian and others have.....

[Katja]

what is the point in saying anything.....????

you can argue until the cows come home over who is right and who is wrong and what study says what and whose rights should be acknowledged......and who should be blamed for what etc

the simple fact is, you know the risks, you know the dangers.... you choose.... your safety and wellbeing, or your right to do as you please

What is the point indeed, because darling, we don't ask for any more than that. We don't want to be nannied, hectored, lectured or dictated to; just treated as human beings should be.

[mikey3000]

As far as I'm concerned, you already have the right to dress as you like and walk down the public streets like a common whore. But we also have the right to calls them as we sees them and hurl as many comments as we like at you. Freedom of speech.

[Diva667]

As far as I'm concerned, you already have the right to dress as you like and walk down the public streets like a common whore. But we also have the right to calls them as we sees them and hurl as many comments as we like at you. Freedom of speech.

Actually around this area you do not. Sexual harassment...I've seen people arrested for it.

[Katja]

As far as I'm concerned, you already have the right to dress as you like and walk down the public streets like a common whore. But we also have the right to calls them as we sees them and hurl as many comments as we like at you. Freedom of speech.

I only know one 'whore' (and how I dislike that word. So common) and have never met another to my knowledge. I was at school with her. She dresses in nothing but the very best of Paris and Milan fashion. There is little that is common about her. Certainly little that could be described as slut (other than possibly the little matter of being paid very well for her services) and walking down the street she would be considered the epitomy of chic, beauty and success.

Most 'whores' are not like her unfortunately, and the way your refer to them does you no credit being as so many are little more than slaves doing the bidding of and enriching their 'owner and are often diseased and drug addicted through no fault of their own. Your words betray your real attitude towards women as a gender.

You may hurl whatever comments and insults you wish, but freedom of speech also means that you should expect to have them returned by the lorry load.

It is heartening to know that we have your blessing in how we attire ourselves. We are indeed honoured.:) Forgive me if I do not offer you my thanks.

[BiBedBud]

As far as I'm concerned, you already have the right to dress as you like and walk down the public streets like a common whore. But we also have the right to calls them as we sees them and hurl as many comments as we like at you. Freedom of speech.

mikey3000,

If you ever gather the nerve to stand out in the entertainment district in downtown Toronto, and “hurl as many comments” as you like at the lovely ladies dressed for summer night life; please let me know in advance. I’d like to watch.

I think it would be entertaining to see you ‘dealt with’ by the ‘Chica’s Chicos’ and/or the bouncers and doormen in the area. Assuming you aren’t beaten unconscious, my guess is that you would be arrested for causing a public disturbance and ‘breach of peace’. You’d deserve it, too.

If the ladies you accost with accusations of being a “common whore” have their act together, they could successfully sue you for slander, and I would hope they do. In fact, I would volunteer to be a witness against you. I would hope that it costs you dearly.

You might find it difficult to exercise your vulgar form of “freedom of speech” with a mouthful of broken teeth.

You might also consider that in Canada, prostitution is not illegal, although there are a host of other laws against ‘communicating for the purpose’, ‘living off the avails’ and ‘running a common bawdy house’ that are currently facing significant challenges in front of the Supreme Court of Canada. It is quite possible that many of these laws could be struck down altogether, very soon.

Not to drive this thread OT, but what’s your beef with “whores” as you call them? They provide an honest service that's in demand, with no pretence and no subterfuge; unlike many “ordinary” business owners and even our politicians. Why the hate? (In case anyone is curious, NO, I've never engaged the services of a prostitute -- never had the need to -- but don't really consider it any of my business what two or more consenting adults will arrange amongst themselves.:2cents:)

Confidential to the ladies: Please don’t let ‘the dog’s bark’ put you off of wearing whatever you will. Most men that I know or have ever associated with would welcome you in your finery, and would never voice a vulgar remark that might dissuade you from dressing to impress.

Summer is always too short here in Canada, and IMO the ladies' skirts never are!

[IanBorthwick]

mikey3000,

If you ever gather the nerve to stand out in the entertainment district in downtown Toronto, and “hurl as many comments” as you like at the lovely ladies dressed for summer night life; please let me know in advance. I’d like to watch.

I think it would be entertaining to see you ‘dealt with’ by the ‘Chica’s Chicos’ and/or the bouncers and doormen in the area. Assuming you aren’t beaten unconscious, my guess is that you would be arrested for causing a public disturbance and ‘breach of peace’. You’d deserve it, too.

If the ladies you accost with accusations of being a “common whore” have their act together, they could successfully sue you for slander, and I would hope they do. In fact, I would volunteer to be a witness against you. I would hope that it costs you dearly.

You might find it difficult to exercise your vulgar form of “freedom of speech” with a mouthful of broken teeth.

You might also consider that in Canada, prostitution is not illegal, although there are a host of other laws against ‘communicating for the purpose’, ‘living off the avails’ and ‘running a common bawdy house’ that are currently facing significant challenges in front of the Supreme Court of Canada. It is quite possible that many of these laws could be struck down altogether, very soon.

Not to drive this thread OT, but what’s your beef with “whores” as you call them? They provide an honest service that's in demand, with no pretence and no subterfuge; unlike many “ordinary” business owners and even our politicians. Why the hate? (In case anyone is curious, NO, I've never engaged the services of a prostitute -- never had the need to -- but don't really consider it any of my business what two or more consenting adults will arrange amongst themselves.:2cents:)

Confidential to the ladies: Please don’t let ‘the dog’s bark’ put you off of wearing whatever you will. Most men that I know or have ever associated with would welcome you in your finery, and would never voice a vulgar remark that might dissuade you from dressing to impress.

Summer is always too short here in Canada, and IMO the ladies' skirts never are!

And that is the effect of Gender Feminism, White Knights, and others who will race to a ladies aid when she is TDID(the damsel in distress). It's an enforcement of their desire to REMOVE anyone else's right to free speech when it counters their beliefs. We're raised to believe in it, bow to it, suck up to it, kneel to it and in essence bend over backwards to preserve the "Sanctity of the Female" that doesn't exist.

The entire stupid event is just shoving more of this into our culture, pushing off personal responsibility and not ONE argument for these walks has any validity to them. Not one. There was a study taken up by two college women in Wisconsin to try and take into account the way a woman dresses and rape, as well as about 8 other factors including skin tone and more. The reason being was put succinctly as,"There is scant evidence to whether or not it is a factor." What has been called up to this point studies are in reality Epidemiological Data Review. Nothing more, nothing better, not even well done because those cited were gathered and funded by Feminist bowing foot grovelers. Not a single REAL study! And these girls were denied their grant request to gather data because it was counter to what the feminists wanted to see exposed. They were DENIED a grant of less than 1000 US Dollars to perform a real study from May'10 to May'11, despite all their professors recommending them as hard working, patient and accurate. SO much for their Undergrad work being seen by the world.

If you wish to divorce yourself of Common Sense, you deserve what comes to you...that's something all men learn when we go out and do stupid things like swinging from trees, pulling pranks, exploring dangerous places. When it bites us in the ass, we get punished for it. But just because these women think they somehow have a "Pussy Pass" because they were born with different reproductive organs, they can walk on water or do other similarly stupid and ridiculous things and get away with it NO MATTER WHAT THE LAW SAYS IN COURT, THE REALITY OF LIFE WILL CATCH UP TO YOU!

I taught rape prevention courses at a local YMCA after I was "dealt with" over MY rape. My Sensei had the wisdom to watch me closely and help me through some of it, helping me help these women. It was a near DAILY occurence that these women wanted a punching dummy that was male to practice on and I had to say enough is enough. None of them had EVER been raped and all except one was looking for a rage piece to go wild on to prove they can compete with men in a life or death situation! After 8 months, I couldn't take it anymore. They didn't want to learn, they didn't want to listen, they didn't want to understand the basics of avoidance (when the hammer comes down, don't be where it lands) 3 of the 28 ended up being raped.

Guess what, the same common sense applies. Don't be a target, don't be where you can be hit IF you can avoid it. Do keep your britches on, don't do anything risky, don't get drunk, don't be careless, don't go alone, don't dress provacatively....

In the rapes of those 3 women, 2 ignored everything we told them...one was stalked by her ex, then taken outside of town and raped in her car. I may not know everything, but this tells me if you keep your head and do what's smart you'll avoid the dangers you can slip but not the ones who are hunting you personally.

Your choice is your choice, your decisions are your decisions...no one else's! YOu share a blame, a responsibility whenever you make a bad decision. The courts may say differently for now, but life says otherwise. And in the end you may punish the evil-doer(in my case she never was punished, I was) but that didn't stop a motherfucking thing, now did it?

[mikey3000]

By definition, slut and whore are synonyms.

Main Entry: slut
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: wench
Synonyms: floozy, harlot, hooker, hussy, prostitute, tart*, tramp, vamp, whore
* = informal/non-formal usage

Why the pride in being called a slut, yet whore is a slur?

You people really kill me. You can't even decide on a preferred term. You want to march in a Slut march, don't want to be called a whore, and demand to be treated with equality and respect while throwing common decency to the wind. So where do you suggest women should be allowed to dress like a slut, only night clubs? concerts? grocery shopping? church? Are there any restrictions to this slutty dress or does anything go? Are there age, weight limitations? Can my mom derss like a slut if she wants? Can your Granny? Then what about men? Can we dress like sluts too and go out in public?

That's my point. Where does this end? Propriety means appropriateness. And dressing down in certian areas, under certian circumatances is fine, but not in the general public.

And Bibedbud, of course sluts are welcome in the clubs, cause they attract the males. But isn't that what the sluts don't want? The negative attention? What's your point? I've been in some of those clubs when the brawls broke out and shots fired, and 99 times out of a hundred it was because some guy look at/approached another's scantily dressed girlfriend. That's why the entertainment district died, cause of the violence.

[drugstore cowboy]

By definition, slut and whore are synonyms.

Main Entry: slut
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: wench
Synonyms: floozy, harlot, hooker, hussy, prostitute, tart*, tramp, vamp, whore
* = informal/non-formal usage

Why the pride in being called a slut, yet whore is a slur?

You people really kill me. You can't even decide on a preferred term. You want to march in a Slut march, don't want to be called a whore, and demand to be treated with equality and respect while throwing common decency to the wind. So where do you suggest women should be allowed to dress like a slut, only night clubs? concerts? grocery shopping? church? Are there any restrictions to this slutty dress or does anything go? Are there age, weight limitations? Can my mom derss like a slut if she wants? Can your Granny? Then what about men? Can we dress like sluts too and go out in public?

That's my point. Where does this end? Propriety means appropriateness. And dressing down in certian areas, under certian circumatances is fine, but not in the general public.

And Bibedbud, of course sluts are welcome in the clubs, cause they attract the males. But isn't that what the sluts don't want? The negative attention? What's your point? I've been in some of those clubs when the brawls broke out and shots fired, and 99 times out of a hundred it was because some guy look at/approached another's scantily dressed girlfriend. That's why the entertainment district died, cause of the violence.

I agree with you Mikey3000.

You do raise some excellent questions. My mother and grandmother NEVER would and have NEVER dressed in clothing that the women at the slut marches wear since they have more self respect than those other women do.

If they were hypothetically wearing slutty clothing, they'd be embarrassed to go out in public dressed like that since they falsely assume that all men want women who are sluts or dressed and act like one, and that all men respect women who are sluts and dress and act like one and sleep with everyone.

My mother and grandmother have seen other women who do dress in slutty skimpy clothing in public and they feel bad for them since these women so clearly want negative attention or any attention they can get instead of embarrassing themselves by being an attention whore with their clothing and showing off their body.

The truth is, NOBODY respects women who dress trashy and skanky in short skirts and who are seen as sluts or mistaken as whores and prostitutes based on how they dress. I know that saying this will make some women mad but it's the truth.

I know lots of men both bisexual and straight, who have told me how they want nothing to do with women who dress slutty or who sleep with almost any guy. Even the gay men I know want nothing to do with any sluts or whores and just feel bad for them since there's obviously something wrong with them or else they wouldn't need to sleep with almost every single guy or dress in skimpy whorish clothing to attract male attention and affection, or to get a hook up or one night stand with a man which they want.

If those women DID NOT want male or in some cases female attention, they WOULD NOT dress in short skirts/shorts, short shirts with stuffed bras or no bra, or show off their panties, tits and ass intentionally like that.

Then again some women crave any attention and will do anything to get it!

Dressing in skimpy clothing, doing raunchy X rated dance moves such as grinding, having sex with men by sucking them off in the bathroom or on the crowded dance floor, kissing and making out with other women-when they're not even bisexual or lesbian at all!-and there are some women who are total teases and just want men to buy them drinks and then once they get the booze they ignore the guy and don't talk to him anymore.

I don't think they should be called sluts or whores unless they put out with pretty much any guy who shows them interest since and will just do anyone and get gangbanged like a slut does since they're that desperate and can't get laid in the normal regular fashion like you know actually dating a man or forming an actual relationship with a man which is impossible for these sluts to do.

Or if they charge for sex or do sex for pay then they're a whore or prostitute.

[drugstore cowboy]

Is rape wrong? Yes, on every conceivable level. But should everyone take responsiblity for how they dress, where they go and what they do while there? Hell yes. I am less at risk of being raped sitting at home reading a book than I am in a nightclub wearing next to nothing and drinking heavily. Common sense...guess Thomas Paine was right after all, it really is uncommon.[/url]

Men in the UK know all about "sluts" or as they call them tarts.

What the Canadian policeman said IS TRUE even if people are now decrying him and claiming that he "hates women" when he was just doing his job and telling women to be careful when they go out to a bar or a club or when they're going about their day.

If he actually hated women he would have told them nothing of the sort, not mentioned that yes date rape does happen more than people want to admit, and he would not have told them to be careful and not wear revealing clothing.

If you don't want to encourage rape, attract attention from all sorts of men including those who wish you harm-Don't wear skimpy clothing that shows off your body, don't get too drunk in clubs or bars-also watch your drinks as people put date rape drugs in them-, and don't go places alone but go in groups of friends.

I think it's funny that women are defending sluts and whores and prostitutes when these women give you a bad name and image.

The thing is, there actually are better movements and protest days like Take back the night rallies, violence against women rallies, and Denim day rallies that don't involve silly theatrics, dressing in slutty clothing, and people take them and the women involved in these protests way more seriously than they do with slut marches and the women in slut marches who intentionally dress like sluts, tramps, tarts, or whores and pretend that they're helping all women or proving a point when they are not doing anything like that at all.

[mikey3000]

I put a prostiture in a whole different category. They are business women who provide a service for money. They are professionals and do provide an essential service to those who need it, as long as they are not forced into the trade. These women who want to march in these slut walks want the ok to be cock teases where ever they go without any responsibility for their actions. Big difference to me.

[drugstore cowboy]

I put a prostiture in a whole different category. They are business women who provide a service for money. They are professionals and do provide an essential service to those who need it, as long as they are not forced into the trade. These women who want to march in these slut walks want the ok to be cock teases where ever they go without any responsibility for their actions. Big difference to me.

So what is a whore to you if they are not a prostitute?

I think maybe you're confusing the term Escort with prostitute?

[tenni]

I will agree with Mikey on one point.

Whores are not prostitutes in this area of the world where the Slut Walks started. Whores are synonymous with sluts and skanks. Promiscuous women who dress and behave in a certain manner. Guys can be sluts but not whores for some unknown reason. Some guys self advertise themselves as sluts (in hopes of getting laid?;) Guys walked in the Slut Walk but any images that I saw of them didn't show any slutty clothing. There doesn't seem to be any particular "uniform" for a guy slut though....lol

interruption...oh fuck no Boston got another goal...:(

Prostitutes are synonymous with hookers and a few other words but not whores, sluts and skanks. Socially acceptable terms for prostitutes in Canada are "sex trade workers" as being preferred over prostitute or hooker. Right now, Canadian Ontario court is determining whether there will be any prostitution laws in our country or is it a violation of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Escorts may be a form of sex trade worker as well as Dominatrix in Canada. Although I think that Dominatrixes are even more removed from our present legal prostitution issues.

[mikey3000]

I thought escorts and prostitutes were the same thing, no? Both are people who have sex for money, just that ecort is a nicer way of saying prostitute.

[tenni]

Mikey, Mikey
Keep up with the times :eek:

Escorts and prostitutes are sex trade workers and part of the sex trade industry. Yep, business industry. Fighting for equal rights and better protection within the legal system.

[DuckiesDarling]

Men in the UK know all about "sluts" or as they call them tarts.

What the Canadian policeman said IS TRUE even if people are now decrying him and claiming that he "hates women" when he was just doing his job and telling women to be careful when they go out to a bar or a club or when they're going about their day.

If he actually hated women he would have told them nothing of the sort, not mentioned that yes date rape does happen more than people want to admit, and he would not have told them to be careful and not wear revealing clothing.

If you don't want to encourage rape, attract attention from all sorts of men including those who wish you harm-Don't wear skimpy clothing that shows off your body, don't get too drunk in clubs or bars-also watch your drinks as people put date rape drugs in them-, and don't go places alone but go in groups of friends.

I think it's funny that women are defending sluts and whores and prostitutes when these women give you a bad name and image.

The thing is, there actually are better movements and protest days like Take back the night rallies, violence against women rallies, and Denim day rallies that don't involve silly theatrics, dressing in slutty clothing, and people take them and the women involved in these protests way more seriously than they do with slut marches and the women in slut marches who intentionally dress like sluts, tramps, tarts, or whores and pretend that they're helping all women or proving a point when they are not doing anything like that at all.

I don't often agree with you on things, Drugstore Cowboy, but this post is basically what I have been saying in various posts in this thread and being told I'm wrong for saying it. I am a woman who has been raped and has been through an attempted rape and I am saying that everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions. As I posted before, here in the US, it is acceptable for the alleged rapist's council to put the victim's sexuality on trial. So people can defend all they want the right to dress as they want, but they need to grow up and realize there are dangers in dressing that way and dangers in doing certain behaviours. This all started because a person gave advice to women on how to avoid being raped. It is repeated in many self defense classes and yet we don't see people organizing Slut Walks because of it. They listen to the instructors and modify their behaviour to reduce the risk of rape. If you dress like a slut and then get drunk off your ass and go home with a guy, is it the guy's fault if he takes what you are offering? How is it acceptable for a male to be drunk, the female be drunk and have consensual sex then turn around and accuse someone of rape because they were too drunk to say yes, maybe the guy was too drunk to ask the question? Yet there are some rapes where there was no scantily dressed people and no alcohol. Those are the rapes that are unavoidable unless you only do everything including daily living as a group activity.

I guess to sum it up, we need to open our eyes and stop blaming everyone else for the results of bad decisions and poor judgment. If someone makes you uncomfortable then tell them so, stay around other people, let there be no question you are saying no loud and clear before the thought of sex is more than a flicker in the other person's brain.

[drugstore cowboy]

I will agree with Mikey on one point.

Whores are not prostitutes in this area of the world where the Slut Walks started. Whores are synonymous with sluts and skanks. Promiscuous women who dress and behave in a certain manner. Guys can be sluts but not whores for some unknown reason. Some guys self advertise themselves as sluts (in hopes of getting laid?;) Guys walked in the Slut Walk but any images that I saw of them didn't show any slutty clothing. There doesn't seem to be any particular "uniform" for a guy slut though....lol

interruption...oh fuck no Boston got another goal...:(

Prostitutes are synonymous with hookers and a few other words but not whores, sluts and skanks. Socially acceptable terms for prostitutes in Canada are "sex trade workers" as being preferred over prostitute or hooker. Right now, Canadian Ontario court is determining whether there will be any prostitution laws in our country or is it a violation of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Escorts may be a form of sex trade worker as well as Dominatrix in Canada. Although I think that Dominatrixes are even more removed from our present legal prostitution issues.

Escorts and prostitutes are sex trade workers and part of the sex trade industry. Yep, business industry. Fighting for equal rights and better protection within the legal system.

What do you mean that whores or prostitutes "Provide a business?" and that they are not the same thing?

Do you think they do one of their "Client's" taxes or help him plan a wedding to his girlfriend? LOL

A prostitute, whore, escort, and Dominatrix are all the same thing thing since they are all doing sex for pay or prostitution.

Tenni there's no need to be ultra PC, a prostitute, whore, escort, all mean the same thing.

There is no "sex trade industry" there are brothels, street corners, "Massage" parlors, and some whores and prostitutes have sex with their tricks or johns out of their own apts or homes, hotel or motel rooms you can rent by the hour, and even their tricks or johns' cars if they're working on the corner.

[tenni]

Drugstore
I'm telling you how it really is in the country of origin of the Slut Walk. We are PC enough to have had same sex marriage with all legal rights because that is how our constitution is written via our section 15 or our Charter of Rights and Freedoms for several years all over Canada and perhaps approach ten years in parts of Canada.

This is real life in real time in Canada. It is a sex trade industry and even our media refer to such workers as sex trade workers more so than the word prostitute. The word, prostitution, is still used in our media. More radical right winged media may use the word prostitute more though. The questions as to legality of prostitution and all aspects connected to the sex trade industry are being discussed in our courts right now. This very week and onward. Prostitution itself is legal in Canada but the "old laws" about a lot of things surrounding the sex trade industry have been thrown out under a Justice's interpretation of our Constitution Charter of Rights and Freedoms. (equal in some respects to the US Bill of Rights but stronger when it comes to many human rights issues). Whether prostitution laws will be brought back in some form or other is being decided. If our Supreme Court becomes more conservative, who knows. We do seem to be in a more conservative direction in Canada but even the Conservatives know that they can not turn back the clock when it comes to same sex marriage. The sex trade workers were on the 6 pm news discussing this. Some are for certain aspects of the sex trade while others disagree to the merits of removing the stigma and all laws surrounding the sex trade industry.

Of course, sex trade workers are both male, female and transgendered people.

This is reality in Canada. It is not PC. The Sex Trade workers are fighting in the courts to end the type of sex trade that you mention. They state that they want sex trade workers to have the same rights as other citizens to be protected rather than harassed by the police. This is perhaps a type of thinking behind the Slut Walk and attitudes toward sex and the sex trade , sluts and women's demands for rights. Dunno for sure. I'm a bit on the progessive side myself. It is just respect. I don't have to be buddies with sex trade workers not to see a need for greater respect and legal protection.

I've already explained how many in Ontario Canada (origin of the Slut Walk) do not connect the word "whore" to sex trade workers or as you refer to them as prostitutes. Sex trade workers are paid for their services as Mikey stated. Whore are not paid. Whores are connected to the word meaning for slut here more than not. Plain and simple distinction by many here.


What do you mean that whores or prostitutes "Provide a business?" and that they are not the same thing?

Do you think they do one of their "Client's" taxes or help him plan a wedding to his girlfriend? LOL

A prostitute, whore, escort, and Dominatrix are all the same thing thing since they are all doing sex for pay or prostitution.

Tenni there's no need to be ultra PC, a prostitute, whore, escort, all mean the same thing.

There is no "sex trade industry" there are brothels, street corners, "Massage" parlors, and some whores and prostitutes have sex with their tricks or johns out of their own apts or homes, hotel or motel rooms you can rent by the hour, and even their tricks or johns' cars if they're working on the corner.

[drugstore cowboy]

That's nice Tenni but I've been to countries and states here in the United States such as Nevada where prostitution is decriminalized or even legalized and everyone calls them prostitutes and whores, not the PC term "Sex workers".

I've even visited Canada and it was like that there and they called them prostitutes, whores, and hookers. It's also like this in the Netherlands and Spain where prostitution is legal.

Just because you want to now reclaim them as "sex workers" because of Political Correctness, does not mean that they are anything but prostitutes, whores, and hookers and they've always been called these terms.

People or men, women, and trannies who are involved in prostitution call themselves whores, hookers, and prostitutes.

[DuckiesDarling]

But there is a difference between a slut and a whore. To paraphrase something I've heard more than once "A whore is better at sex cause she gets paid for it, sluts just give it away free". And we all know that the use of the word whore is used in a lot of other ways, a person is cheating they are "whoring around", a person visits a place that contains many persons who engage in sex for money they go to a "whorehouse". And when it comes down to it, the act of exchanging money for sexual favors whether it is legal or illegal is prostitution and is truly the oldest profession.

[tenni]

Drugstore
Yes I am aware from other posts that several people from your country seem to react retrogressively to the language of sex trade workers rather than prostitutes and hookers. This came from sex trade workers to use these words. It just hasn't got to your country's thinking just as the words "same sex marriage" is more inclusive than "gay marriage".

I'm not sure how it will come down in the courts. Ten years ago a majority objected to same sex marriage as being "wrong". It is all about education and changing attitudes...and that is what the Slut Walk was about too.

We also have the police officer and justice who used language to tell women not to dress like sluts. So, it isn't all progressive here. In fact, I suspect a retrogressive movement may start.

[drugstore cowboy]

Tenni what's the point in arguging about language and words, and political correct terms for the same exact words and terms?

I've been to Canada both the East coast, central part, and West coast and both in small towns and in large cities.

I'm friends with Canadians of all genders and orientations and all of the Canadians I have met call it "gay marriage" not "Same sex marriage".

What the Canadian policeman told those women was not wrong. Despite them getting mad he was doing his job and he may have helped prevent some of them from being attacked, raped, or worse.

I'm sure if he just kept his mouth shut and did not say anything at all about how yes women do get raped, he would have been attacked for that.

[Katja]

All of this discussion on tarts, whores and such is very interesitng but not quite to the point. I began this thread not expecting it to take off quite in the way it has but it shows what I know does it not?

The Slut Walk movement is endeavouring to reclaim the word 'Slut', not to glorify it. The word slut originally had nothing to do with sex, but meant a slovenly untidy often unclean person. Time has moved on and it has evolved into the word used today. It has nothing to do with being a 'whore' except its connection to sex.

Comments made have made many women react and try and reclaim the word, not back to its original meaning exactly, but to move the word on. Diva mentioned the Ethical Slut which has certainly inflluenced many who have involved themselves in this movement and it is the definition of the word the books narrative contains which is in part their cause. It argues that a slut is "a person of any gender who has the courage to lead life according to the radical proposition that sex is nice and pleasure is good for you." . It is not about cheating, or taking money for sex, or about any issue other than an honest way to approach and enjoy sex.

We can argue all you like about how we dress, but in the end all the right to attire ourselves as we see fit and be left alone without being criticised in much the same way some posts have done and victimised by authority and considered to be almost less than human is the movements demand. It is an appeal to all for women to be considered more than how they dress and to be seen for what they truly are. Human beings who have a right to live freely and without prejudgement by society or individuals alike.

What is sluttish to use the pejorative is remarkably fluid. Everyone has different ideas of what sluttish means and sluttiness in dress is no different. Our world would be a much more dull place if every woman wore dresses which lay on the knee, and which revealed much less of the form of the woman but because we may dress ourselves in revealing clothing does not make us sluttish in the sense of the word as Mikey and others means it.

Sammie19 made a pertinent point those of you who think we all have it coming and should do as you wish us to do (in of course our own interests) have failed to consider. She said that 'We as bisexuals face enough threats to be ourselves as it is and those of us who are bisexual should understand that as much as anyone. Would you stop bisexual activity because of external pressure and the threat of bullying and intimidation? That's another question your should ask yourselves because what some are saying and want us to do is exactly the same thing in respect of women and how they dress.' It is a point which should not be lost on any of us but is apparently has been on most, and it is sad that one group of people who are so ill considered by so many because of who they are, do quite the same thing to another many of whose members are also of that group to which they belong.

'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' goes the old saying, and so it is with how we dress.

I rest my case and will say no more.:)

[Long Duck Dong]

you do not want me looking at your tits, don't display them and wave them in my face when I am trying to talk with you, not to your tits....

respect is a two way street, you want me to respect you, then respect me by covering them up cos I do not want to have to see them.......

you do not want respect, you want people to conform to your standards....you want people to act in a manner that suits you and makes you happy..... and the whole time you can be acting in a offensive manner and justifying it by saying its your right......

you have said it yourself.... females should not have to conform to how males want them to dress..... females want to be treated with respect, dignity and like human beings.... so who has to do the changing and conforming, katja ???? the males in the male world that you referred.....

so I am curious, where do my rights come into this as I don't want tits in my field of view when I am talking to a female.... I do not want to see the crack of her ass cos her skirt is so short, I do not want to have to see her midriff.... etc... if I wanted to see that, I would go to a brothel......

so tell me, where are my rights in all this....????? and do not call me a conservative person.... I enjoy a smartly dressed woman, I enjoy a woman in revealing clothing in my own home and in my bedroom, I enjoy the images of some of the models in alluring clothing and sexually provocative poses.....

so yeah, please inform me of my rights please......

[Katja]

I did not wish to post again on this thread but I must respond to LDD's misrepresentation of my views.

I believe that I said treated with respect. Whether or not you respect me or anyone else is your judgement, but whether or not you respect another you should endeavour to treat people with respect and politeness.Sometimes this is impossible but most of the time it is a relatively easy task. Good manners cost nothing after all.

Neither have I said that people should conform to how I or anyone else attires themselves. That is down to the freedom of choice of the individual.

Do not put words in my mouth LDD. There are many ways people dress themselves, and many I do not like and would prefer not to see. Yet that is their choice and it is not my right to object or to try and stop them and make them do other. In a relatively free society I am afraid, darling, we all have to take the rough with the smooth. Even you and certainly me.

[tenni]

"Tenni what's the point in arguging about language and words, and political correct terms for the same exact words and terms?"

Drugstore
Language has power and that is why there has been this Slut Walk movement.


"What the Canadian policeman told those women was not wrong. Despite them getting mad he was doing his job and he may have helped prevent some of them from being attacked, raped, or worse."

He was not doing his job correctly. He erred with his use of language otherwise he and his Chief of Police would not have apologized.

The officer's job was to inform about safety as I recall. There have been posters on this site taking both sides as to whether he was correct or not in stating that women should not dress in a certain manner in order to protect themselves.

I was not at his information meeting but one fact that has not been raised here is what had just happened on the York campus area where the officer was doing his presentation. I don't know if it was because of the recent incident or not as to why he was presenting this information meeting but it does seem too much of a coincidence not to be connected.

A young woman student had been murdered a few weeks prior to the officer's discussion. She had been murdered in her own apartment and sexually assaulted. There is no indication that she was dressed provocatively. All reports indicate that she was a quiet modest foreign student from a country known more for modesty than extroverted dress and behaviour. It ended up that the murderer was a room mate who had pushed his way in to her room after she opened her door. (it was viewed on Skyp by her boyfriend in the foreign country and she was heard telling the murder to leave her room. Then the computer went dead.) The previous year some women students had been sexually assaulted while walking on campus in open areas in broad daylight. That was not the norm to happen on that campus. All of that may have played into why the officer was giving this talk. There was shock and concern amongst students both female and male as I recall.

[Long Duck Dong]

I did not wish to post again on this thread but I must respond to LDD's misrepresentation of my views.

I believe that I said treated with respect. Whether or not you respect me or anyone else is your judgement, but whether or not you respect another you should endeavour to treat people with respect and politeness.Sometimes this is impossible but most of the time it is a relatively easy task. Good manners cost nothing after all.

Neither have I said that people should conform to how I or anyone else attires themselves. That is down to the freedom of choice of the individual.

Do not put words in my mouth LDD. There are many ways people dress themselves, and many I do not like and would prefer not to see. Yet that is their choice and it is not my right to object or to try and stop them and make them do other. In a relatively free society I am afraid, darling, we all have to take the rough with the smooth. Even you and certainly me.

excuse me ??? I posted two statements you made......

females should not have to conform to how males want them to dress..... females want to be treated with respect, dignity and like human beings....

then I asked a question

so who has to do the changing and conforming, katja ????

then I provided a answer myself
the males in the male world that you referred.....

so I was not putting words in your mouth at all.....

now to address your remark about respect.....and endeavouring to treat others with respect and politeness...

that is what I have been saying in the thread..... don't imply consent, do the decent thing and tell a guy where he stands before you end up in shit street.... don't play games with us, lead us on etc... cos thats how sexual assaults and rapes often end up happening....... and arguing that implied consent is not consent, that yes means yes, no mean no, means nothing if nothing was clearly said to the male......

a lil respect can make a big difference..... specially when it comes to a womans personal safety and well being.... and its only 2 words... yes and no
.... when they are used, can make all the difference in a court case

[sammie19]

so I am curious, where do my rights come into this as I don't want tits in my field of view when I am talking to a female.... I do not want to see the crack of her ass cos her skirt is so short, I do not want to have to see her midriff.... etc... if I wanted to see that, I would go to a brothel......



This made me laugh. There is a style guys have been increasingly using in recent years where the wasteband of their jeans are deliberately below their bum cheeks and we can see literally all of their underpants and as often as not bits of bum cheek (visuals of arse crack included for free) and more reminiscent of builders' bums than sex. To my mind its not a pretty sight, hardly sexy and certainly not slutty. Stupid maybe, but we cant stop people from being stupid.

Me and Meg and our friends and many others have a giggle about it but wouldn't dream of stopping them. It is what freedom of expression is all about.

LDD, your rights are that you don't have to look, and you can express your opinion that you don't like it much and if you like you too can dress sluttily or not as you see fit. You can even wear your jeans or trousers below your your bum, but men do dress sexily very often and what a drab old world it would be if we all conformed to the views of a few and dressed accordingly.

In a free society you can campaign to have it all banned, but then wouldn't that make our society just that little bit less free? I and others would have the right to oppose you.

[Long Duck Dong]

This made me laugh. There is a style guys have been increasingly using in recent years where the wasteband of their jeans are deliberately below their bum cheeks and we can see literally all of their underpants and as often as not bits of bum cheek (visuals of arse crack included for free) and more reminiscent of builders' bums than sex. To my mind its not a pretty sight, hardly sexy and certainly not slutty. Stupid maybe, but we cant stop people from being stupid.

Me and Meg and our friends and many others have a giggle about it but wouldn't dream of stopping them. It is what freedom of expression is all about.

LDD, your rights are that you don't have to look, and you can express your opinion that you don't like it much and if you like you too can dress sluttily or not as you see fit. You can even wear your jeans or trousers below your your bum, but men do dress sexily very often and what a drab old world it would be if we all conformed to the views of a few and dressed accordingly.

In a free society you can campaign to have it all banned, but then wouldn't that make our society just that little bit less free? I and others would have the right to oppose you.

no I would not campaign to have it banned... as who is to say that my way is better than their way, just cos I may disagree with it......

you are right, its my right not to look..... so can my rights be respected and people move out of my line of sight so I do not walk into a power pole cos I have my head turned to one side ????? I mean, come on... have a lil respect.... I don't make people go to town half dressed, the least they can do is not make me end up walking into concrete walls and poles cos I am trying not to be blinded by the sun reflecting off somebodies lily white ass cheeks cos their pants are half way down their ass.....:tong::tong::tong:

seriously tho... how people want to dress is up to them, I dress in a way that is not sexy.... just casual, and respectful of the people around me.... in a sense, I suppose I dress in a neutral manner and its about not provoking a response.......

a bit like you said samme, you dressed for your partner to enjoy..... and some asshole took it as a invitation ... and agreed its your right to dress how you want.... and there will always be somebody that has a issue or takes it way too far

its the same way I see females in night clubs in revealing clothing.... maybe its just me but if a woman wants a friend to drink and dance with and nothing else, I would appreciate being told that... cos it can set the ground work for a good friendship / night out and gives guys like me the chance to prove that there are gentleman out there that want a good night out, not a one night stand......... and that is respect both ways.....

yes, I value friendship over casual sex as one day that friendship may be a lifeline... and I have a partner I can make love with... so its the best of both worlds for me

[tenni]

"its the same way I see females in night clubs in revealing clothing.... maybe its just me but if a woman wants a friend to drink and dance with and nothing else, I would appreciate being told that... cos it can set the ground work for a good friendship"

This reads to me more like the thoughts of a sexual being man who can not read verbal and non verbal cues sent by a woman and not a bi asexual man. (except the last six words. Sexual men are not usually looking for friendship first from women)

As a sexual man, I can read the other non verbal clues to determine what the woman is interested or not interested in but a bi asexual man can not?.. Isn't it strange since repeatedly the poster has written that he is not interested in raw sex (no sex drive) but only romantic attraction and so why does it matter to him? It seems like a lot of commentary posting and muck raking for nothing or to just be contrary devil advocate approach...lol

[sammie19]

This isnt so much to do with sex. More like poor drivers. Meg showed me this yesterday and it gave me another giggle. More to do with poor driving than anything else.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/jun/15/cycling-skirt-motoring-hazard?commentpage=4#comment-11198673

[csrakate]

its the same way I see females in night clubs in revealing clothing.... maybe its just me but if a woman wants a friend to drink and dance with and nothing else, I would appreciate being told that... cos it can set the ground work for a good friendship / night out and gives guys like me the chance to prove that there are gentleman out there that want a good night out, not a one night stand......... and that is respect both ways.....



I don't get it....why can't you just assume you're friends from the beginning? Why do you have to be told that there will be no sex???? Maybe YOU shouldn't assume more than that. Ever think about it that way? Wouldn't it be more respectful on your part not to assume?

[BiBedBud]

Does anyone else reading this see the irony of some people on this thread arguing for greater “personal responsibility” on the part of rape victims, while simultaneously arguing to diminish the culpability of rapists, because, purportedly, “she asked for it” by dressing a certain way?

Is it not doubly ironic that some of these most ardent ‘shifters of blame’ onto the victims of rape; themselves claim to have been the victims of rape?

Is their self-loathing, thereby shifted upon another, not in and of itself, ironic on a whole other level?

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that those on this thread who would impose their puritanical expectations on others; would very likely themselves face the scorn of puritans who would denounce them as “sexual deviants”, for no other reason than that they are participating in this forum?

How about the irony of those who would look down upon women they perceive as “sluts” and denounce them as “common whores”, as if they were sub-human, somehow; indignantly expecting sexual access to women just because they bought them a drink at a bar?

Not to mention their loathing of prostitutes -- who would do an honest, straight-up exchange of sex for money -- and their utter disrespect for women who drink the drinks they've bought them, but who won't then fuck them for the privelege of being refreshed?

And the irony of those who claim to cherish respect, who are unwilling to respect others, simply because of what they’re wearing?

Oh, the irony!
The irony!

If you see the irony, lemme know!

[IanBorthwick]

Does anyone else reading this see the irony of some people on this thread arguing for greater “personal responsibility” on the part of rape victims, while simultaneously arguing to diminish the culpability of rapists, because, purportedly, “she asked for it” by dressing a certain way?

Nope....just you, baby....just you. Reading things into the text because you have an emotional agenda is no way to live a life nor approach real life, it's twisted logic and sick to boot. Logic of this sort allows you to start witch hunts, which are already happening against men, I might add, because of false rape allegations which your speechifying is trying to lead up to excusing.

Essentially it's engaging in Gender Profiling, and last I checked that's illegal except where it's applied to men...and then it's ignored.It's also a Hate Crime and Feminism by it's very nature is sexism, or hate applied to a gender. Shucking personal responsibility is an extended means by which one can increase the hate against a group and has been successfully used by many political pariahs throughout history, most notable of which were the Nazis...hence the reason for the etymology of feminazi.

Around the US even now False Rape and the altered jurisprudence that allows men to be jailed on a whim is demolishing men's lives. In Maine, such a witch hunt was started by Assistant DA Mary Kellett. Her track record for pushing false allegations into convictions that are later overturned for Prosecutorial Misconduct didn't stop mens lives from being ruined.

Have a little honesty when reading and repeating, at the very least. It does you credit if you are accurate in your allegations, you can at least avoid looking foolish.

[Long Duck Dong]

I don't get it....why can't you just assume you're friends from the beginning? Why do you have to be told that there will be no sex???? Maybe YOU shouldn't assume more than that. Ever think about it that way? Wouldn't it be more respectful on your part not to assume?

yeah it would be...... but not all people work that way.... some people go out to a night club looking for casual sex... others are there for a good time, not sex.....

assumption goes both ways, just cos I am a male alone at a nightclub, doesn't mean that I am one of the ones there looking for a one night stand.... and if a lady is interested in more than just a friend, then she needs to know that .....

there have been times I have had to tell ladies to back off and remove their hands from the front of my pants cos I am not interested,....... and some times it has had to been with a lil force as they were drunk......

so its not just a issue that females have to deal with, or be clear about......

[Long Duck Dong]

Does anyone else reading this see the irony of some people on this thread arguing for greater “personal responsibility” on the part of rape victims, while simultaneously arguing to diminish the culpability of rapists, because, purportedly, “she asked for it” by dressing a certain way?

Is it not doubly ironic that some of these most ardent ‘shifters of blame’ onto the victims of rape; themselves claim to have been the victims of rape?

Is their self-loathing, thereby shifted upon another, not in and of itself, ironic on a whole other level?

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that those on this thread who would impose their puritanical expectations on others; would very likely themselves face the scorn of puritans who would denounce them as “sexual deviants”, for no other reason than that they are participating in this forum?

How about the irony of those who would look down upon women they perceive as “sluts” and denounce them as “common whores”, as if they were sub-human, somehow; indignantly expecting sexual access to women just because they bought them a drink at a bar?

Not to mention their loathing of prostitutes -- who would do an honest, straight-up exchange of sex for money -- and their utter disrespect for women who drink the drinks they've bought them, but who won't then fuck them for the privelege of being refreshed?

And the irony of those who claim to cherish respect, who are unwilling to respect others, simply because of what they’re wearing?

Oh, the irony!
The irony!

If you see the irony, lemme know!

its cos not all rapists are rapists, some of them are people that are used and toyed with by females.....

there is a big difference between the guy that grabs a female that is walking her dog thru a park at knife point..... and the guy that had a female get in his bed naked and both have been drinking.......

its a bit like the story of the pilot I posted in the thread.... the female was sexually aggressive all night, even before she started drinking, she got into his bed by choice and had sex..... and he lost his job cos she accused him of sexual misconduct...... yet she never got so much as a warning.... despite there being sexual harassment laws covering the employees, even on lay overs........

he is still responsible for his actions, but so was the female that never got so much as a warning......

I can see double standards..... other people see a male sexually assaulting a female and exempting her conduct that breached company rules

I have the simple attitude of play by the rules you lay down for others, and you draw a clear line in the sand that makes it a lot easier to prove who is the victim cos it is not always the female alone.........

in cases where it is a woman walking a dog alone in a park and gets attacked ( day or night time ) then you have a clearer definition of rape without provocation and that is the cases that generally hold up in court better.... and yes the woman is victim of a crime

in the case that I posted about the 5 youths sentenced to jail for raping a woman... and they were all innocent..... yes... that supports the fact that not all males are guilty of rape.... but accuse them of it, and they will be treated as guilty of it and seen as mongrels......

what about my ex with her 14 affairs and 37 claims of rape, none of which ever went to court...... yet it never stopped her accusing the guys she was sleeping with, of rape....... cos she knew she could and she did it for sympathy and attention..... while the poor guys went to hell, trying to clear their names......

it makes you look as bad as the people that sit in judgement of males and say its the males that are at fault, when a lot of the time, its either dual responsibility or the male is in fact innocent.... but still blamed

[Long Duck Dong]

This isnt so much to do with sex. More like poor drivers. Meg showed me this yesterday and it gave me another giggle. More to do with poor driving than anything else.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/jun/15/cycling-skirt-motoring-hazard?commentpage=4#comment-11198673

on here in NZ, you can get a ticket for using a cell phone while driving and the cops have said the excuses are coming in thick and fast about why people are using cellphones while driving..... and 99% of the time, they blame the person on the other end of the cellphone......

legally you are allowed to use hands free phone sets so you can talk and drive.... as you have both hands on the wheel..... and to me it makes no sense

what is the difference between holding a cell phone and paying more attention to what the person is saying, than the road..... and using a hands free set and paying more attention to the conversation, than the road.....

apart from both hands on the wheel, your reactions are still delayed cos your center of attention is not fully on the road

so what is the difference between a skirt and a road sign, they both can divert our attention from the road..... I am a lil confused here....

[Long Duck Dong]

"its the same way I see females in night clubs in revealing clothing.... maybe its just me but if a woman wants a friend to drink and dance with and nothing else, I would appreciate being told that... cos it can set the ground work for a good friendship"

This reads to me more like the thoughts of a sexual being man who can not read verbal and non verbal cues sent by a woman and not a bi asexual man. (except the last six words. Sexual men are not usually looking for friendship first from women)

As a sexual man, I can read the other non verbal clues to determine what the woman is interested or not interested in but a bi asexual man can not?.. Isn't it strange since repeatedly the poster has written that he is not interested in raw sex (no sex drive) but only romantic attraction and so why does it matter to him? It seems like a lot of commentary posting and muck raking for nothing or to just be contrary devil advocate approach...lol

I used to be a doorman / bar man, tenni.... my sexuality or sex drive has nothing to do with the conduct of the people I observed and the issues I had to deal with and defuse constantly

but I quess you being a closeted male that is mainly interested in guys, would know more about the bar scene and human interaction between males and females than a male ( sexually active at that stage ) that worked in them for a living and had to read the signs of human behievour......

so how about you lay off the asexual crap tenni..... cos that had nothing to do with it......

btw, the females are saying implied consent is not consent.....and I agree with the ladies...... so reading the verbal signs is still not a lady giving consent, is it, ? and nor is it a clear yes or no...... so are you the type of person that would sleep with a lady without her clear consent, tenni, cos you read the signs and she was interested but never said YES

[DuckiesDarling]

Does anyone else reading this see the irony of some people on this thread arguing for greater “personal responsibility” on the part of rape victims, while simultaneously arguing to diminish the culpability of rapists, because, purportedly, “she asked for it” by dressing a certain way?

Is it not doubly ironic that some of these most ardent ‘shifters of blame’ onto the victims of rape; themselves claim to have been the victims of rape?

Is their self-loathing, thereby shifted upon another, not in and of itself, ironic on a whole other level?

Does anyone else see the irony in the fact that those on this thread who would impose their puritanical expectations on others; would very likely themselves face the scorn of puritans who would denounce them as “sexual deviants”, for no other reason than that they are participating in this forum?

How about the irony of those who would look down upon women they perceive as “sluts” and denounce them as “common whores”, as if they were sub-human, somehow; indignantly expecting sexual access to women just because they bought them a drink at a bar?

Not to mention their loathing of prostitutes -- who would do an honest, straight-up exchange of sex for money -- and their utter disrespect for women who drink the drinks they've bought them, but who won't then fuck them for the privelege of being refreshed?

And the irony of those who claim to cherish respect, who are unwilling to respect others, simply because of what they’re wearing?

Oh, the irony!
The irony!

If you see the irony, lemme know!

There is no irony on my part, Bibed, and I'm one of the ones calling for more personal responsibility of everyone. I'm also someone who was raped, it was unavoidable unless I had married someone else 10 years earlier. I was almost raped at a party where I was drinking, that I do take full responsibility for. But do not discount the value of common sense. Taking precautions will limit the chance of being a victim of any crime. Self Defense 101.

And at no time did I look down on prostitutes, I believe I called it the oldest profession. It's a job. I do however, look down on sluts for several reasons. You can be sexy without being a slut, you can be a lot of things without being a slut, but when you become a slut you diminish the value of womanhood IMO.

[darkeyes]

Can't keep me gob shut ne longer...I have been considered by many a slut half my life. Most of my adult life. By some people I still am. Once a slut always a slut isnt't that how it goes?

I have shagged who I want when I want, acted wildly, dressed in short skirts and dresses, skimpy clothing, dressed and acted what it seems most of u lot call sluttily. It didn't exactly say "I am available" but it did say "I am am available if u are and I fancy u". You know what I mean tho.. sexy kit, skirt up me arse, lotsa leg and flesh on show.. dressed to pull or be pulled. Ashamed of it it? Am I hell as like.... odd aspects of it sure, but not as a whole. I have had a fucking ball. I have made the play and seduced an been seduced by numerous men and women and tried to make sure we all had a good time. Before Kate came along when I went out dressed to kill, tarted up to the eyeballs I went out hoping and expecting to get laid.... I lived, and would do it all over again.

I have had sex in the oddest places on the spur of the moment with people I hardly knew but fancied the arse off. One night stands were frequent and great fun.. 3sums and group sex not unknown and if I fancied a guy or a girl it didn't matter... I did what was necessary to end up doing what people do. It didn't aways work but that's life... no one is perfect.

Let's get this "yes"/"no" thingie out of the way.... Christ. "Hello I'm Charlie. Hows u? ". "I'm Fran, Im fine ta. I do/dont fuck by the way." Jeez.. get real. That just isnt how people make friends and influence people. It was also very rare for me to say yes. I think my reaction as hand slid up my skirt, over the tidgies, stroking me arse or leg was a tacit acceptance of their advances unless and until I stopped them. I did however often do so and say no at such times. Often the word "no" wasnt even necessary.. movin the hand away gently but firmly away from where u dont want it was just as effective, and sometimes a lil more firm removal was called for. Just cos u do a slow dance with a guy doesnt mean he can take automatically take liberties. Sometimes even after a lil fumble I have put an end to it cos sometimes the lil fumble isnt doing the trick. Almost without exception guys and girls more so have accepted that "no" occasionally with a lil bad grace an a bit of a "humph" and sometimes after they have pushed it 2 far and ya havta be a lil stronger. In some peeps eyes the fact that I'd allowed them to tease me tidgies makes me to blame were I to get raped. Bollox. It doesnt matter at what stage, or where ya say no, no means exactly that, and if u have already been fucking, whenya say no it means thats it forget it!!! Once that lil word is said it doesnt matter if yad been screwing forever and a day, any further fucking, if its against the will of any person, it is rape!!! Agreeing to sex, and certain acts is not agreeing to every act. Most people accept that, and most guys are as much most people as anyone else. Sometimes however there are bastards and arseholes who don't give a shit about anyone but themselves and no amounta legislatin and taking precautions will stop those arseholes from doin ther thing...

Now lets get this clear an all... skimpy clothing is only slutty if u have that mind set.... slutty is only slutty if u have that mind set... sluts are only sluts if u have that mind set. The peeps u call sluts are human beings like anyone else, they just live differently and have different ideas bout life and sex from maybe you do. An' lets get this clear an all.. I am NOT and never have been a SLUT. I have enjoyed me lil life and luffed almost all of it... I enjoyed sex to the limit, was no more or less responsible than most modern women. As some one said.. sex is nice and why shouldnt we experience as much or as little as we want with as many or as few as we want? As long as we dont hurt another person and know where to draw the line, and know when the line has been drawn sex is a fucking joy!!!

The way I lived my life as a "slut" was a bloody sight better than how many who have much less wholesome interests and pasttimes and beliefs... beliefs which mean harming other human beings in one way or t'other, oppressing them, bein greedy and ripping people off, warring, condemning out of hand, and being quite happy to destroy an slaughter in the name of cause or country.. so called "moral things" which lots ofya have argued with me off an on over the last haff a dozen years. Gimme bein a "slut" an havin a good time, and givin others a good time ne day over the real shit that happens in this world.

I am going to say little about what seems to me to be some people trying to justify rape, and trying to shift the responsibility onto the victim. That is a goodly part of what this argument is about and many of the deviations from the point of the discussion. Making excuses for rape. No more no less.

And while I remember, there is a priggishness among many on this site, just like there is in the real world in all sexualities, and a judgemental trait within you about other people which is quite Victorian. It isn't surprising the world is in a mess really when sex is given so much of a priority and consideration in our societies and the real issues of the day so little. Another nice little distraction.

[sammie19]

Wooowooo.:bigrin: Auntie Flan go girl go.:tong: Nice to see you back on form. I miss the Franist explosions of indignation and rage.:bigrin:

[tenni]

"so how about you lay off the asexual crap tenni..... cos that had nothing to do with it...... "

LDD
Your asexuality and mental instability has everything to do with so many of your comments. Your asexuality has coloured so many of your perceptions and near inarticulate, judgmental rambling "sermons" that you write on this site.

So among so many claimed careers and sexualities that your refer to to contextualize your judgmental sermons you have been a doorman too (rape victim too if you think that it adds credibility to your judgmental ramblings). Do you think that having been a doorman makes you unique on this site? How many who have posted here have also worked in the hospitality industry and seen over indulgence and sexual interplay? Count me as one who was/ still sometimes bartends...lol If I saw a woman dressed in a sexual way, I'd enjoy the view. If she flirted, it can be fun...just don't take shots with them while working and probably don't get involved sexually with the clients unless you want to be open to problems. Cut them off if they are getting drunk or be prepared to pay the consequences legally.

[Long Duck Dong]

"so how about you lay off the asexual crap tenni..... cos that had nothing to do with it...... "

LDD
Your asexuality and mental instability has everything to do with so many of your comments. Your asexuality has coloured so many of your perceptions and near inarticulate, judgmental rambling "sermons" that you write on this site.

So among so many claimed careers and sexualities that your refer to to contextualize your judgmental sermons you have been a doorman too (rape victim too if you think that it adds credibility to your judgmental ramblings). Do you think that having been a doorman makes you unique on this site? How many who have posted here have also worked in the hospitality industry and seen over indulgence and sexual interplay? Count me as one who was/ still sometimes bartends...lol If I saw a woman dressed in a sexual way, I'd enjoy the view. If she flirted, it can be fun...just don't take shots with them while working and probably don't get involved sexually with the clients unless you want to be open to problems. Cut them off if they are getting drunk or be prepared to pay the consequences legally.

snorts...... no tenni, I am not unique, ..... you are...... you feel the need to run around the site, constantly going on about my sexuality, my sexual state and my depression in a good number of threads.... and you also feel the constant need to downgrade my partners opinion as she is a hetero......

it has become your mission in the site, to constantly try and downgrade me at every chance.... while you ignore people that share my opinion, and say the same things that I do or my partner does....

so either there are a good number of people in the site, that are asexual and have depression or hetero, which in your eyes, devalues any opinion they may have..... or as has been noted and commented on by a few members now...... you have a unhealthy obsession with me and my partner...... and the only thing me and my partner have in common in regards to you, is that both of us have told you, we will not sleep with you..... and it have been noticed by us and a few others, that your ongoing obsession started after me and my partner both turned you down........

so tenni do me a favour and put me on ignore.... not in the way you did with my partner, when you put her on ignore then didn't log in so you could read what she said and come in and comment on it while having her on ignore....... or grow up and try shutting up... or get professional help for your obsession with me and my partner....

[drugstore cowboy]

its the same way I see females in night clubs in revealing clothing.... maybe its just me but if a woman wants a friend to drink and dance with and nothing else, I would appreciate being told that... cos it can set the ground work for a good friendship / night out and gives guys like me the chance to prove that there are gentleman out there that want a good night out, not a one night stand......... and that is respect both ways.....

Considering that you're asexual and not bisexual at all this is a moot point.

If a woman wants to flirt with a man it's not that hard or impossible to tell even in a bar or dance club.

Do women you encounter face to face or in public somehow need your stamp of approval, pass a dress code test, and are required to tell you that they only want to be friends with you? :rolleyes: Or maybe you assume that because you're such a "stud" or "ladies man" (said with sarcasm) that this is why women flock to you and why you assume that they all want sex with you when you're in public or at a bar since they don't say how they just want to be friends. :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with people having one night stands or even women having or wanting one night stands.

Keep in mind that people do sleep with their friends and even women do this.

It's called a fuck buddy or what people now through political correctness call
"Friends with benefits".

This topic is about a policeman who was just doing his job and telling women safety tips like, "Don't dress in scantily clad clothes or provocative clothes that attract attention from men who want to hurt you." and women who flipped out and think that he's somehow violating their human rights when he was just doing his job. This thread and topic are not about how when you're in a bar you think that all these women somehow want to sleep with you since they talk to you and don't say, "I just want to be 'friends' only!"

[tenni]

LDD
If you would stop writing bullsh*t as if you are an expert on bisexuality and sexual beings, no one, including me, would be challenging you. Despite being told that your posts are off topic or make little sense, whaffle around the idea, etc., you continue to post as if your thoughts are coherent and you are educating us from your expert position. You have been doing this for years and told for years that some/a lot of your posts are off topic, etc. Thanks though for stopping the attacks on bisexual men who do not live by your sexual values.

[Long Duck Dong]

Considering that you're asexual and not bisexual at all this is a moot point.

If a woman wants to flirt with a man it's not that hard or impossible to tell even in a bar or dance club.

Do women you encounter face to face or in public somehow need your stamp of approval, pass a dress code test, and are required to tell you that they only want to be friends with you? :rolleyes: Or maybe you assume that because you're such a "stud" or "ladies man" (said with sarcasm) that this is why women flock to you and why you assume that they all want sex with you when you're in public or at a bar since they don't say how they just want to be friends. :rolleyes:

There's nothing wrong with people having one night stands or even women having or wanting one night stands.

Keep in mind that people do sleep with their friends and even women do this.

It's called a fuck buddy or what people now through political correctness call
"Friends with benefits".

This topic is about a policeman who was just doing his job and telling women safety tips like, "Don't dress in scantily clad clothes or provocative clothes that attract attention from men who want to hurt you." and women who flipped out and think that he's somehow violating their human rights when he was just doing his job. This thread and topic are not about how when you're in a bar you think that all these women somehow want to sleep with you since they talk to you and don't say, "I just want to be 'friends' only!"


and once again asexual is a lack of a sex drive, it is not a attraction which defines a sexuality..........

my sexuality is not defined by who I am not fucking, but who I am attracted to........ but you and tenni want to imply a different set of rules to one person, then is implied to everybody else.....

my point is a statement by women of yes means yes, no means no, implied consent is not consent........ if they want people to respect that rule of a woman, the least women can do, is actually use the rule themselves........

its one of the things that comes up in court a lot, exactly what was said to whom, by whom and when....... and it is one of the main things complained about, when a victim is put on trial.... about how the guy never respected a rule the woman did not use

[drugstore cowboy]

and once again asexual is a lack of a sex drive, it is not a attraction which defines a sexuality..........

my sexuality is not defined by who I am not fucking, but who I am attracted to........ but you and tenni want to imply a different set of rules to one person, then is implied to everybody else.....

I'm not defining you at all, you've frequently said yourself in your own words, how you're asexual and not sexually attracted to anyone.


I'm asexual I am not sexually attracted to anyone and I was born without a sex drive. Think about what it was like when you were younger and before you were sexual and had any desire or sexual attraction to anyone at all and that is what I am like.....

Just because you may be able to masturbate, get an erection, preform sexually, and get receptive anal sex that does not make you either bisexual or pansexual since you do not have any sort of sexual attraction to anyone at all.

People who actually are bisexual do have a sex drive and clearly have sexual attraction to people, which you don't have at all and never have had since you were born without a sex drive or sexual attraction to anyone.

Most women do use your "rule" that you wrote about with consent.

They do this even if they've been drinking or are out partying at a bar or club and may be dressed in clothing that shows off their body.

[Long Duck Dong]

LDD
If you would stop writing bullsh*t as if you are an expert on bisexuality and sexual beings, no one, including me, would be challenging you. Despite being told that your posts are off topic or make little sense, whaffle around the idea, etc., you continue to post as if your thoughts are coherent and you are educating us from your expert position. You have been doing this for years and told for years that some/a lot of your posts are off topic, etc. Thanks though for stopping the attacks on bisexual men who do not live by your sexual values.

tenni, I tend to respect more values than you.......
anal sex, rights of all partner, honesty, being open or discreet, rights to by monogamous or poly, trans people, hetero people, religion etc etc etc......

and with most of that, I can talk from personal experience, and what I have learnt from associating with people, observing them etc

you, as a closeted bisexual male, that is not interested in anal sex, perfers males is pro cheating, anti monogamous, is not interested in trans people, ia anti hetero people in the site etc etc.... are also welcome to share your opinion with people.......

and as I have said before, if my knowledge and experience is so bad, why were you using it in another site, as witnessed by a number of members......
cos it was noticed you were saying one thing in this site, something different in another site, and the something different was near identical to what I say in this site........ and the opposite to what you say in this site.....

strange that.......

so I would firmly suggest tenni..... that if you want to talk about * attacking * other bisexual males..... you start by setting a example....... instead of the example you set in this thread by dragging my depression and asexuality into a issue that has nothing to do with depression and asexuality

[Long Duck Dong]

I'm not defining you at all, you've frequently said yourself in your own words, how you're asexual and not sexually attracted to anyone.



Just because you may be able to masturbate, get an erection, preform sexually, and get receptive anal sex that does not make you either bisexual or pansexual since you do not have any sort of sexual attraction to anyone at all.

People who actually are bisexual do have a sex drive and clearly have sexual attraction to people, which you don't have at all and never have had since you were born without a sex drive or sexual attraction to anyone.

Most women do use your "rule" that you wrote about with consent.

They do this even if they've been drinking or are out partying at a bar or club and may be dressed in clothing that shows off their body.

lack of sex drive, is not a sexual attraction.... unless you want to argue that a woman that has lost her sex drive, is suddenly not allowed to call herself bisexual and I would love to see you tell cherokee mountain cat that she is not allowed to call herself bisexual now..........

I love the way that its argued in the site that males that have sex with males, are bisexuals in denial, even when the males say its not a sexual attraction, its just using people for sex.....

now we see a different statement, a male that that has had sex with other males and females, is not bisexual as he lacks a sex drive.....

in both cases, its a male having sex with males and females.... but one is not allowed to be bisexual, the others have to be bisexual and realise it.......


and its not my rule either.....unless I make the rules for the us and other countries that I have never lived in

rights of consent (http://www.plea.org/legal_resources/?a=616&searchTxt=&cat=5)

now if you read that......

Sexual assault laws apply to all kinds of sexual contact from a touch to intercourse. Sexual contact without consent is sexual assault. These laws apply to everyone including partners, spouses, people who are dating and people who have had sex with each other on another occasion.

if that is enforced as it is stated, then any female that flirts and kisses a guy without his consent.... she is guilty of sexual assault........


and if you read down further....

No always means no and only yes, expressed by words or actions, means yes. A person cannot rely on implied consent as a defence to sexual assault. Unless the person agrees to the activity it is sexual assault, even if they did not fight back. If the person is not capable of giving consent then it is sexual assault to engage in any sexual activity with them.


see the part that says that only yes, expressed by words or actions,........

interesting, if you do not say yes, but imply it, it can be regarded yes...... yet you can not allow on that in court.........

and that is my point...... there is no protection for the male at all....... and its the word of the female against the male as to if consent given at all

its why rape victims end up on trial, when they make accusations........


of course, what would I know.... there is only a good number of years of cases that prove what I say to be correct....... and case studies written by legal experts that also support what I say.... and womans groups that say the same thing.....

so how many of them are wrong....... or is it still only me that is wrong and other people correct, when we say the same thing.. ?

[sammie19]

The last 8 posts have nothing to do with the thread but are childish attempts by the posters to score points off each other. A sure sign that the purpose of the thread is past and that some people are big babies with little to offer except petty enmities.:(

[sammie19]

Nope....just you, baby....just you. Reading things into the text because you have an emotional agenda is no way to live a life nor approach real life, it's twisted logic and sick to boot. Logic of this sort allows you to start witch hunts, which are already happening against men, I might add, because of false rape allegations which your speechifying is trying to lead up to excusing.

Essentially it's engaging in Gender Profiling, and last I checked that's illegal except where it's applied to men...and then it's ignored.It's also a Hate Crime and Feminism by it's very nature is sexism, or hate applied to a gender. Shucking personal responsibility is an extended means by which one can increase the hate against a group and has been successfully used by many political pariahs throughout history, most notable of which were the Nazis...hence the reason for the etymology of feminazi.

Around the US even now False Rape and the altered jurisprudence that allows men to be jailed on a whim is demolishing men's lives. In Maine, such a witch hunt was started by Assistant DA Mary Kellett. Her track record for pushing false allegations into convictions that are later overturned for Prosecutorial Misconduct didn't stop mens lives from being ruined.

Have a little honesty when reading and repeating, at the very least. It does you credit if you are accurate in your allegations, you can at least avoid looking foolish.

My. Aren't men just such saints and paragons of virtue. There is more than one person who has contributed to this thread who has looked foolish.

[IanBorthwick]

My. Aren't men just such saints and paragons of virtue. There is more than one person who has contributed to this thread who has looked foolish.

The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
From http://menforjustice.net/;-

“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Ridiculous attempt to shame number 11 goes to Sammie19! Yay! Your attempt is a version of the following:

Charge of Instability (Code White) – The White Padded Room Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being emotionally or mentally unstable. Examples:

“You’re unstable.”
“You have issues.”
“You need therapy.”
“Weirdo!”
Response: In response to this attack, one may point to peer-reviewed literature and then ask the accuser if the target’s mental and/or emotional condition can explain the existence of valid research on the matter.

You win the Bronze turkey as you unsuccessfully attempt to slip the real issues and failed. Congrats!

Your final point about more than one person looking foolish is correct, and I highly recommend a mirror to find the fools. When you want to debate issues, I am ready. When you want to act like a 5 year old Prissy American Princess arguing what you want because you want it, you/re not gonna have the high ground.

[Diva667]

The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
From http://menforjustice.net/;-

“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Ridiculous attempt to shame number 11 goes to Sammie19! Yay! Your attempt is a version of the following:

Charge of Instability (Code White) – The White Padded Room Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being emotionally or mentally unstable. Examples:

“You’re unstable.”
“You have issues.”
“You need therapy.”
“Weirdo!”
Response: In response to this attack, one may point to peer-reviewed literature and then ask the accuser if the target’s mental and/or emotional condition can explain the existence of valid research on the matter.

You win the Bronze turkey as you unsuccessfully attempt to slip the real issues and failed. Congrats!

Your final point about more than one person looking foolish is correct, and I highly recommend a mirror to find the fools. When you want to debate issues, I am ready. When you want to act like a 5 year old Prissy American Princess arguing what you want because you want it, you/re not gonna have the high ground.

Is it always us(males) against them (females ) for you?

There is no part of any sort of feminism that you would find to be freeing for you?

I've experienced sexism (from males) and I don't find all men to be jerks... I dunno it seems like you spend a lot of time and energy on hating what could work out to be a good thing for you. Instead its seems to me that you'd rather hate women than have any part of them, am I wrong?

Because I see the comments made by the police officer as blaming the victim. Which I don't think law enforcement should be doing - it simply is not their job to place blame. Again just my two cents worth, not looking for your ( or anyones) input on it.

[sammie19]

The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
From http://menforjustice.net/;-

“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Ridiculous attempt to shame number 11 goes to Sammie19! Yay! Your attempt is a version of the following:

Charge of Instability (Code White) – The White Padded Room Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being emotionally or mentally unstable. Examples:

“You’re unstable.”
“You have issues.”
“You need therapy.”
“Weirdo!”
Response: In response to this attack, one may point to peer-reviewed literature and then ask the accuser if the target’s mental and/or emotional condition can explain the existence of valid research on the matter.

You win the Bronze turkey as you unsuccessfully attempt to slip the real issues and failed. Congrats!

Your final point about more than one person looking foolish is correct, and I highly recommend a mirror to find the fools. When you want to debate issues, I am ready. When you want to act like a 5 year old Prissy American Princess arguing what you want because you want it, you/re not gonna have the high ground.

Selectivity in what we read and see about us is a common enough fault. Selectivity in what person is, is as common as any fault.

Not taking enough care when reading and observing what a person is another common enough fault. As is is not taking enough care in in what we know and see of a person.

Getting things wrong in how we use information about either is also a common enough fault.

And telling a Northumbrian girl she is a "Prissy American Princess" is not the way to her heart and mind.

If you get the basics wrong don't be surprised when we treat much of the rest of your hysteria without due seriousness.

I don't want the high ground, sweety pie. A level playing field is quite adequate for what I want out of life. :)

[sammie19]

The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’
From http://menforjustice.net/;-

“Shaming tactics.” This phrase is familiar to many Men’s Rights Activists. It conjures up the histrionic behavior of female detractors who refuse to argue their points with logic. Yet women are not the only ones guilty of using shaming tactics against men. Male gynocentrists use them, too.

Shaming tactics are emotional devices meant to play on a man’s insecurities and shut down debate. They are meant to elicit sympathy for women and to demonize men who ask hard questions. Most, if not all, shaming tactics are basically ad homimem attacks.

Ridiculous attempt to shame number 11 goes to Sammie19! Yay! Your attempt is a version of the following:

Charge of Instability (Code White) – The White Padded Room Charge

Discussion: The target is accused of being emotionally or mentally unstable. Examples:

“You’re unstable.”
“You have issues.”
“You need therapy.”
“Weirdo!”
Response: In response to this attack, one may point to peer-reviewed literature and then ask the accuser if the target’s mental and/or emotional condition can explain the existence of valid research on the matter.

You win the Bronze turkey as you unsuccessfully attempt to slip the real issues and failed. Congrats!

Your final point about more than one person looking foolish is correct, and I highly recommend a mirror to find the fools. When you want to debate issues, I am ready. When you want to act like a 5 year old Prissy American Princess arguing what you want because you want it, you/re not gonna have the high ground.

Selectivity in what we read and see about us is a common enough fault. Selectivity in what person is is as common as any.

Not taking enough care when reading and observing what a person is another common enough fault. As is is not taking enough care in in what we know and see of a person.

Getting things wrong in how we use information about either is also a common enough fault.

And telling a Northumbrian girl she is a "Prissy American Princess" is not the way to her heart and mind.

If you get the basics wrong don't be surprised when we treat much of the rest of your hysteria without due seriousness.

I don't want the high ground, sweety pie. A level playing field is quite adequate for what I want out of life. :)