Does the bible teach women to hate themselves?

[Azrael]

Leviticus 15:25 "And if a woman have an issue of her blood, many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation: all the days of the issue her uncleanliness shall be as the the days of her separation. She shall be unclean."

Disturbing, no? So women are supposed to hate themselves for the way they were designed?!?!?!? WTF?!?
these are just some thoughts that have been bouncing around my head lately which I felt like bouncing off some other heads: So then- where does it begin? Love, pain, decay, rebirth- does it all ultimately mean something? I'm inclined to think so. I don't know it, but I feel it. Or perphaps my brain just tells me I feel it and I really have gone off the deep end. Regardless, going with my gut has gotten me this far, so be it. I feel it, even if it's all in my distorted head with my human filters I attempt to break myself of viewing the world through. Regardless, to blatantly rip of Wordsworth's Tintern Abbey, I feel it. An energy which permeates all living things, all objects , everything we can see and hear and percieve. I envision a great transitory cycle of constant creation and destruction and rebirth, on and on.. It all makes sense to me now. Feminimity being the essential spirit of nurturing and creation of life, has been historically beaten down in the form of the deity. As I see it *OPINION* The Goddess or Earth Spirit Mother is not dead, nor her male foil. She has always been there- the Spirit Mother. God or Goddess or Satan or Allah or whatever are just titles and names that, in my judgement are used to personify (seemingly) intangible forces to bring them down to a level of understanding. When I walk outside, I'm not talking to god or whatever you or they choose to call "it", but communing with my mother. Not in the form of speaking to my human biological mother, but by directly speaking to nature itself, or herself, if you prefer. The trappings of human civilization make my already wounded heart bleed all the more. Kellie, as a woman is one of infinite manifestations of the Goddess(es). The spirit mother cries for her child, as I weep for my lover, as I am also a manifestation of her. The essential other piece of the human puzzle, or is it?She feels our pain, our sense of isolation, our inability to find peace. She feels that a part of herself is wounded, crying out to a world of closed ears. The ears, however are not closed. They are always listening, as is she. Compassionately, the way any mother should love her children. Because one day *OPINION*we all decompose and become reabsorbed by life's will.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God". This one I simply refuse to accept. I despise the idea of human beings being vile and impure and unclean from birth just because two people loved one another enough to make life, as well as a life together.
What this slightly toked up rant amounts to, I will explain. Basically, as I see it, a bunch of male shitheads took peoples connection with whatever spirit or whatever and perverted it for the purpose of making (Wo)Man hate his/her respective selves. Especially in the case of women. Where is the concept of a feminine divinity? Why such a narrow perspective? Why was it Eve's fault that Adam made the choice to screw up, if it did in fact happen. The focal point I'm driving @ is the construct that the concept of original sin is incompatible with feminine equality. as it merely lays the blame on the Goddess, rather than revere her or so much as acknowledge her presence. It is this among with many other factors and variables, which has lead in my view to the historical degradation of the feminine spirit. Why does testosterone have to assert itself like an angry monkey flinging spiritual fecal matter as it realtes to matters of the spirit or soul or essence ect. Why do men feel they have to be in charge? I don't. But why do so many women (I'm not talking about myself, really :bigrin: ) expect men to take the dominant role and make them feel as if- you're a man. be a man and deal with it, nancy-boy. The answer is years upon years of social conditioning and people hating and eventually offing themselves when things become too much. This is how the machine eats every last one of us, myself included, but in a nutshell- Organised Institutional Christianity has stolen and manipulated the old ways for their own selfish agenda they appear to be pushing.
That all being said, I'm not affraid anymore. I don't see any reason to be in spite of the observation the world is attempting (seemingly) to try and eat what's left of me. I love this place, I really don't mean to bum anyone out or sound fatalistic, I just had to spit that out of my head. Love will set us all free. Or maybe I really have gone off the deep end. I honestly don't know, but something makes me think I'm on to something here. Maybe one day I'll make some sense of it all. Important part being my relative lack of fear.

Love to all-
Tom
:female: :tongue: :bigrin: :flag1: :male:

[innaminka]

Leviticus 15:25 "And if a woman have an issue of her blood, many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation: all the days of the issue her uncleanliness shall be as the the days of her separation. She shall be unclean."

:

Not on my reading list. who cares??

[tom_uk]

Not on my reading list. who cares??

Not on mine either – doesn’t look like we’ve missed much

[ambi53mm]

Tom,

What an incredible pleasure it was to wake up to your inner most thoughts this Sunday morning...you've given me new hope that a part of my spirit will live on long after I've made my transition. What an awesome mind!! :bigrin:
I may seriously need to spend more time in my attic :male:

Namaste'
Ambi

[Brian]

To be honest, I don't have much use for the bible, interpreted literally or interpreted liberally.

This article below is making the rounds through many Canadian newspapers. It specifically discusses the bible's words on the topic of women, and the evidence that suggests these are the words of conservative men, not the word of God. It essentially provides historical evidence supporting your statement, Azrael, that "...as I see it, a bunch of male shitheads took peoples connection with whatever spirit or whatever and perverted it for the purpose of making (Wo)Man hate his/her respective selves. Especially in the case of women."

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=f605eef3-0a33-4404-837d-966b50863222

- Drew :paw:

[smokey]

Karen Armstrong in her book "The Battle for God" : a history of fundimentalism, points out that our ancestors understood that if God's word was infinate then it had an infinate number of meanings and that they relished the alagories and metaphors contained therein. To interept any religious or spiritual writing literally is to limit not only it, but our minds and lives and spirit as well. Really in my book funnymentalists as I call them should be pitied because of their limited and closed world-view. The bible and the Quran and the vast majority of religious writings are best understood as both a metaphor of our relationsip with the ineffable, and as a historical record of the times they were written in.

[Azrael]

These are some interesting thoughts. I just pulled the bible out last night in a vain attempt to understand something as I sat in my hotel room burning for an answer of some kind. Basically reinforcing where I'm already at. I do not believe the bible, but it's effect on culture and society has been devestating to the *HUMAN* spirit. Both of them. I came to Ocala to find myself and figure out where I'm at with everything- and I think I have. I know I have. Now I just have to deal with it. Later. After I spend all day in the nature preserve talking to mom :bigrin:

Thanks for the thoughts,
Love to all
-Tom
:bibounce:

[Michael623]

I truly hope you have found the direction and answers you are seeking Azrael. I would like to offer to you a look at Unity Church of Christianity if it's a spiritual need you are wanting. It is based on the teachngs of Jesus and finding your divinity within. We believe you are born in a "christ" like state and not as a sinner. Heaven is a gift not something that you must earn by accepting that you are a sinner.

Namaste,
Michael

[Driver 8]

This article below is making the rounds through many Canadian newspapers. It specifically discusses the bible's words on the topic of women, and the evidence that suggests these are the words of conservative men, not the word of God. [...]
This article is basically a synopsis of Ehrman's book Misquoting Jesus. However, it's worth noting that Ehrman's analysis is problematic to begin with - and this article, in my opinion, makes claims about problems in the Biblical texts that are even stronger than Ehrman argues for in his book. I don't feel that the claims this article makes are supported by current Biblical scholarship. Here's an examination of Ehrman's argument (http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/03/misanalyzing-text-criticism-bart.html) that I find compelling.

I certainly do not favor a literalist interpretation of everything in the Bible - there are, for example, some words that occur only once, for which correct translations can't be agreed on; there's the question of whether the Pauline letters should be taken as the words of one great theologian, or are as important as the Gospels themselves; there's ... well, there are plenty of things to puzzle over. But to claim, as this article does, that the document we have is just the endpoint of a huge game of telephone, that we have no clear idea what the original texts and teachings were, is hogwash.

[FalconAngel]

As a couple of recovering Catholics, we can say that the Bible has a great number of self-contradictions and prejudicial rules in it.

What you must remember is that what you read in the Bible was selected from all of the books of Judeism (from which Christianity sprang - the old testament) and hand picked by Emporer Constantine of Rome. He was a new convert and, typically of fresh converts, he was very zealous about his new-found faith. To the point of selecting which books would be included in the Bible so as to insure his political goals that would be in keeping with his new belief system.

With that in mind, I would take everything that the Bible says, which sounds out of sorts with the basic concepts of decency and respect, with a large grain of salt.

Remember that it was assembled with a religio-political goal in mind. The remaining books of the bible (which are not in keeping with that goal) are all in the Vatican, which is something the church does not exactly advertise.

Chris and Eleanor

[Driver 8]

Leviticus 15:25 "And if a woman have an issue of her blood, many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation: all the days of the issue her uncleanliness shall be as the the days of her separation. She shall be unclean."

I think this verse is a good example of the difficulty of picking the Bible up, flipping through it, and trying to put it all together.

My point of view is very much influence by the Anglican approach to theology. Anglicans balance Scripture, tradition, and human reason; so, among other things, there's a strong emphasis on placing verses in their context.

And the important context for the verse you quote - as for much of Leviticus - is that it's part of the ancient laws that determined what things were ritually clean and unclean. I'll leave it to others to discuss this in a Jewish theological context, but for Christians, there is no need to follow these rules, because redemption comes only through Christ; the New Testament repeatedly hammers on this point.

(Yes, I realize that there are plenty of individual Christians who feel that they can just flip open to a random passage anywhere in the Bible and know everything there is about it; but ... let's just say that there are a lot of individual Christians who are picking and choosing, and I want to separate that from what the Church actually teaches.)

Acts 10:15 "What I have made clean, let no man call unclean."

[jedinudist]

The short answer - Yes.

I grew up in a strict Nazarene church where women were not permitted to wear pants, weren't supposed to cut their hair, and were supposed to cover their head in the presence of God. We were practically treating them like second class people when I was very young.

Women were supposedly the usurpers of Kings, the downfall of mankind, the reason for expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Every bad example of the female of our species was touted out in front of us and preached about.

(Don't feel too picked on ladies- the guys were told we were worthless too)

Pardon my frankness but... what a crock of shit!

The bible is the the word of MAN supposedly inspired by God. Look at that old party game where everyone sits in a circle. The first person whispers something to the next, and they pass it on, ect., until it comes back around to the first person. Usually, it is vastly different from the original statement. That hapened in a few minutes and with only a few people- so how much "spin" do you think could have been applied to the bible in the last 2000 years as it went from person to person and generation to generation.

The bible has been rewritten so many times for so many different reasons that I do not think I can trust it's texts any longer.

Too many religions teach women that they are dirty, unclean, second class.

Blessed Be~

[Brian]

to claim, as this article does, that the document we have is just the endpoint of a huge game of telephone, that we have no clear idea what the original texts and teachings were, is hogwash. Maybe. To me it's academic. I don't think it really matters whether the new scrolls are accurate representations of old scrolls or not. They all have the same amount of evidence that they are the commands of some sort of supreme being, namely none at all.

It's strange to me that Christianity, Islam and Judaism all have as their foundation that there is only one god and that this god has expectations of us and that this god is perfect. And yet His communication of those expectations is so faulty - can anyone state with certainty what this one god wants? It seems not. The fact that there are hundreds of different flavours of Christianity, Islam and Judaism (exactly because God's expectations are unclear and debatable) is proof that there is no Christian, Muslim or Jewish god, in my mind. And the article reinforces that logic by pointing out how the "word of God" has in fact evolved, through both error and malice, over time. By Christian doctrine, God's expectations, ie the word of God, cannot evolve, therefore the modern bible cannot be the word of God.

[julie]

Thank you for posting the link for that article Drew, it made a lot of sense to me.

Over the past 20 years or so I have been striving to make some kind of sense of my Christian faith... which, just like my bisexuality, does not feel like a choice...more like an inherent part of me.

I look at the fallability of the Christian Church...and how it repeatably betrays the very people it is meant to protect...

a relevent example being:- his own vicar offering our own rupertbare prayers for healing for his bisexuality and his homeless situation when all the man needed at that point was food and shelter :confused:

..i cannot imagine that the people(men) who were entrusted with the task of recording biblical truths having any less of a personal agenda to use this opportunity as a platform to express their own interpretation of 'how Christians should behave'


and yet... and yet....through all the confusion and contradictions in the bible i can still connect to a theme of 'what is the most loving thing to do'... Which seems to me to be the underlying challenge of the person of Jesus Christ .. and is the part of Christianity most palatable even to people who describe themselves as having no allegience to God.

Where this leaves me as a Christian (rejecting much of the teaching of the bible as at best 'manipulated') i dont know :( but i cannot seperate myself from my spiritual truths such as

'perfect love drives out fear' 1John 4v18 (NIV) because everything i have ever learned in life has proven this truth time and time again..??

i guess this is more about 'faith' than 'religion' or 'the Bible' and the more i try to make sense of the truths underpinning my beliefs the more confused i become... but my faith still stands firm....and so does my sexual orientation :rolleyes:

julie :female:

[Michael623]

If God is everything, which I believe it is, then what is there to evolve? One God, one power & one presence.

[Nara_lovely]

My veiw is: I have a lot of faith in God (God being an entity of enlightenment, who allows freedom of thought and action yet still loves me for the creature that I am, and will become...no matter what!)

I don't have a lot of faith in the people who 'run' the organization!

[newfiesusan18]

Wow, what an INTENSE thread!!! I was raised in the Christian faith, Pentecostal by my parents' choice, and then I switched to a Baptist church and beliefs when I became a teenager.

However, within the past, hmmm, year I think... I've started coming out of the closet, and I also shed my Christianity and not really believed in anything. Is that Atheism, or Agnosticism? I honestly don't know, and to be perfectly, well.. honest, I don't wish to put any kind of label on my beliefs.

People ask me what are my religious beliefs, and I tell them "I don't really have any." How's that for confusing!

I do know one thing for certain, and that is that I am very much a bisexual woman. At least I've got that one down, and I don't mind putting a label on that, because that's who I am. I like guys and girls. And I do know that any religion that tells me that who I am is wrong, I don't want to be a part of it!!

[Azrael]

The question remains, where is the Goddess? Eve was framed. :bigrin:

-Tom

[slaphappypud]

If you study the ACTUAL history of the Christian church, you soon find yourself feeling rather sheepish for being duped...
Turns out that Jesus Christ was actually the head of a political revolution, that's why the Romans killed him (they were actually VERY tolerant of different religions). Judas Iscariot? ... Turns out that's not really a name, it was period slang that meant "assasin". Peter's nickname was "Peter the Knife"... And no, I'm NOT making this stuff up, why do you think the Romans sent 1000 men to arrest Christ? He was the head of a terrorist group! Saul (Paul) was the one who moved the whole thing into the realm of religion. Even 300 years after the death of Christ the numbers of Christians was very low, only several hundred...
I could go on about this, but the real point is, if you buy into Christianity, you're getting scammed. Don't put any weight into it. The rules and stuff it lays down are meant to give Kings (kings were appointed by god himself, remember?) a means to total control over the people...

[chook]

Hey Slaphappypud,


Wasnt the terrorist group known as "The Peoples Front Of Judea"



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Joey19]

Holy freaking crap...

This thread had to be one of the most intense I've seen on these forums so far (from the little I've read) Where to begin... well. I was raised as a christian all my life. My father is a minister, his twin brother is a minister, his little brother is a minister, and the rest of the family is, needless to say, devoutly christian (except myself... heh heh). So you see, as I try to make sense of what I read here my christian background keeps rearing its ugly head trying to make me say things I know I dont want to.

Only thing I do want to say is that it is a very common miconception that the sins of man were to be held by Eve. Actually, God was understanding that Eve was tricked but punished Adam for knowingly going against what he said. Yes, Eve did take the preverbial "first bite" but she was tricked by the devil in snake form.

That said... I've come to realize that much of what I believed as a younger child was forced down my throat and that honestly I need to go and find my own way. I will never bash on christians for following a faith that I may believe to be false because I believe that everyone has their own right to persue faith in any form. I will say though that I HATE with a passion the people who try to shove any form of religion down your throat because honestly I think thats where they go wrong. In general, I choose to lead by my own example showing love, respect, and acceptance to anyone who may need it (and every one does).

Joey

[APMountianMan]

Leviticus 15:25 "And if a woman have an issue of her blood, many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation: all the days of the issue her uncleanliness shall be as the the days of her separation. She shall be unclean."

Disturbing, no? So women are supposed to hate themselves for the way they were designed?!?!?!? WTF?!?

Sigh. I must say that reading this out of context – without the aid of hermeneutical discipline – is the problem with the exegesis made here. The context of the writing deals with the survival of a people during a time when there was an absence of running water for sanitation purposes. To prevent the spread of STD this law was written and makes perfect sense in this context. It is one of the many laws that were designed to aid the survival of the people of Israel and added to the understanding of the role of sanitation in the ancient world. If one wants to point to the Bible as an enemy to women, feel free. But it is not the Bible that ignores the health and social issue of women. As for where is the Goddess, she is mention in the first chapter, first verse, of Genesis. And from there her wisdom is the thread that binds.

:2cents: :cool:

[julie]

[QUOTE=chook]Hey Slaphappypud,


Wasnt the terrorist group known as "The Peoples Front Of Judea"



Cheers Chook :bigrin:[/QUOT


pmsl chook.. a voice of common sense amongst all this hysteria :rolleyes:

Julie :female:

[Azrael]

As I said, this was a slightly manic rant, so humble apologies to anyone I may have caused offense to. While I do not understand Christianity, I respect it and have many dear Christian friends whom I would gladly take a bullet for. It just isn't for me, but I'm happy for the people that it does work for that it gives them their respective peace. No more need be said from my end.

Respectfully and Lovingly,
Tom 2.0 aka evil wizard's cat :bigrin:

[Driver 8]

As I said, this was a slightly manic rant, so humble apologies to anyone I may have caused offense to.
No offense caused, at least not here. I think moderate Christians have a responsibility to speak up for the faith and offer information - otherwise no one will ever hear from anyone but the extreme right-wing. And there's nothing wrong with asking questions you want answers to.

Plus, you'll never hear me complain when someone who's not a Christian picks up the Bible to see what's in it.

[Azrael]

I

Acts 10:15 "What I have made clean, let no man call unclean."

Touche. Well played good sir *tips hat* :)

blessed be,

-Tom 2.0 aka evil wizard's cat man :bigrin:

[moonlitwish]

Issues like this is why I have completely rejected any form of organized religion. I keep making shit up as it comes to me...Most of the stuff is close to modern Paganism though so for now that's what I call myself. I have a copy of the bible from my over zealous christian days...Haven't picked it up since I moved in to my house after I found it a home on the bottom of my reference book shelf. I'd toss it, but it makes for a fun debate with the open minded...
Religions of self denial for the SUPREME BEING are what teaches the human race to hate itself. The bible is just a convenient accessory to weild over the heads of the ignorant.
But giving credit where credit is due, it does have several tidbits of wisdom strewn about...But the enlightened can find wisdom in dr. seuss if they look hard enuf.
Enuf of my cynicism today folks :rolleyes:

[SweetBlackAngel]

But the enlightened can find wisdom in dr. seuss if they look hard enuf.

Now this totally makes sense to me. I also understand that there is Zen in "Alice In Wonderland."

I gotta respect that. :flag1:

[JohnnyV]

In answer to the original question:

No. People teach women to hate themselves, not a book.

J

[allbimyself]

No. People teach women to hate themselves, not a book.
True. They just use their religious writings as justification.

[Joey19]

True. They just use their religious writings as justification.

Thats so true. Peeople take the bible out of context far to often. Isn't its message suppost to be one of love?

Joey

[Azrael]

Should have a new puter within a day or so.
Until then, Blessed be, All of you.

-Tom 2.0 :cool:

[Nara_lovely]

As a couple of recovering Catholics,

*giggle* sorry......love the way you put that!

[Azrael]

Myself included. Drunken dysfunctional south Philadelphia Irish Catholics at that :bigrin:

-Tom 2.0 aka evil wizard's cat man working on a neurotoxin to cleanse the minds of the masses- or not perhaps
:female: :bibounce: :male: :cool:

[chook]

Hey, I'm the end result of a catholic education, I went to a catholic boarding school for four years...and was never molested once...and if I find out any of the other kids were I'll have that school up for discimination.



Cheers Chook :bigrin: