Major decision...

[Joey19]

Hey all... I'm a brand new member to this site so I'm just writing to say hi first of all. It's so great to see a site that fully embraces bisexuality. I really feel blessed to have found you all.

Secondly... reciently I decided I wanted to join Navy. For the first part of my life I was diagnosed with clinical depression, ADD, and a nervous tick and was on meds for all of those things. The meds were what kept me from joining the Navy originally but reciently at college I was able to go off all my meds and I was doing awesome. When I realized that I would now be able to join the Navy I was estatic. I immediately rushed to my nearest recruiter and in a few short weeks I was signed up and processed through our local MEPS. Now that I've had some time to think about all of this I think that I have rushed into the whole military thing in general. Now that I have thought about all of this I really want to quit out of the Navy but according to my recruiter I cant do that. I myself have done a lot of research on the internet and according to MANY people it is very easy to get out of the DEP (Delayed Entry Program). All you have to do is send a letter to the station commander and basically list why you dont want to be in the military and they are required to let you out. I can either send the letter or just not show up on the day that im suppost to ship and either will work. I'm just really torn on what I should do and was hoping all of you could give me some advice on what you think I should do. Thanks in advance!!

Joey

[Mimi]

For the first part of my life I was diagnosed with clinical depression, ADD, and a nervous tick and was on meds for all of those things. The meds were what kept me from joining the Navy originally but reciently at college I was able to go off all my meds and I was doing awesome.
As a therapist, I am a little concerned that you went off all of your meds and then made a drastic and impulsive decision which you now regret. I don't know much about you, but I hope that you are getting some help in dealing with your multiple issues, whether with meds, therapy, or other form of healing.


All you have to do is send a letter to the station commander and basically list why you dont want to be in the military and they are required to let you out. I can either send the letter or just not show up on the day that im suppost to ship and either will work. I'm just really torn on what I should do and was hoping all of you could give me some advice on what you think I should do.
Well, I don't know much about the Navy, but I have a feeling that if you just "don't show up," then there will be some heavy consequences, like they might track you down or make you pay a fine or something nasty like that. Why don't you write a letter and explain your mental health issues and that this makes you ill-fit to serve? I think that would be reasonable and responsible. Plus, they make you go through psychological tests to get in because they want emotionally stable people in the armed forces anyway.

Good luck,
Mimi :flag1:

[Joey19]

I don't know much about you, but I hope that you are getting some help in dealing with your multiple issues, whether with meds, therapy, or other form of healing.

Well, at first I was doing great. I was really pumped about getting into the Navy and getting such a great program with them but once the actual thought of what I did set in it was really sucky for me. I've been really depressed lately just thinking about it all and with the stress of finals, school, parents, and everything else life has been a little bit of a "downer" lately. I actually recognized this so I've decided to go to a councelor here at school and I found out that I've got a lot more to deal with than just this so I think im gonna continue seeing professional help with that. I just can't get over how much I want to stay off my meds because its so freeing. I hated being on them but now I kinda wish I hadn't gone off so I wouldnt be dealing with this.


Well, I don't know much about the Navy, but I have a feeling that if you just "don't show up," then there will be some heavy consequences, like they might track you down or make you pay a fine or something nasty like that. Why don't you write a letter and explain your mental health issues and that this makes you ill-fit to serve? I think that would be reasonable and responsible. Plus, they make you go through psychological tests to get in because they want emotionally stable people in the armed forces anyway.

As far as I've been able to find out through various sources I should be able to get out without any proble either through the letter or just not showing up withough any bad consequences. I'm not going to take the risk though and just send the letter. Also, those "psychological tests" you speak of dont really exhist. Its more like you fill out a sheet and tell them what your past is like related to your mental health and honestly, its not that hard to lie about that. In fact, my recruiter had me lie out my a$$ all over the place just to get in. In retrospect I feel kind of dishonest about it all but I was really vulnerable and looking for any way in. Its all so F***** up. But hey, thats the US military for ya I guess. Anyways, thatnks for the advice.

Joey

[codybear3]

I do not now if the rules have changed, but if your are signed up for service and fail to report for duty, you will be listed as A.W.O.L. Think about what you are doing... :2cents: :paw: :paw:

[DiamondDog]

The military hates LGBT people.
Just come out to them, or better yet tell them you have a fetish for men in uniform. ;)

[BI BOYTOY]

hey their, i want to welcolm you to this site. i look forward to chating with you in the future. thats if your not in some military stockaid or something. :bigrin: :bigrin: i know thats not funny.im not trying to make fun of your situation. but with world the way it is going they might not let you out so easy. unless of course you had a thing for men in uniform. i do :bigrin: :bigrin: i do wish you the best of luck though i sujest what ever your going to do you do it soon. :three:

[jedinudist]

Hi Joey~

I'm new here too, it's a great place full of great people! Hope to see you here often!

I have had some experience with this issue. Even though it is the "Delayed" Entry Program, it is still "Entry". Once you sign up, whether you DEP or not, you are enlisted in the United States Navy.

You now have an important decision to make that will impact the rest of your life.

DO NOT, I repeat- DO NOT simply fail to report. You will be listed as UA (Unauthorized Absence) and then AWOL (Absent With-Out Leave). They will start looking for you and if they need to do that, they won't be happy about it. No, they won't kick you out for failing to show, they can however toss you in the brig for a spell.

There are very few things that will get you out from under the obligation you have agreed to (enlistment). I would suggest you retain a CIVILIAN attorney who specializes or is very familiar with the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) or whatever they are calling it today to advise you on what you can do.

Immediately request to extend your DEP to the limit if you have not already done so, this will provide more time for you and your attorney to look at your options and decide which ones to pursue.

If all else fails, you may indeed have to "out" yourself in an effort to be discharged. At the stage you are in, this usually (but NOT always) results in something called an "Entry Level Seperation". This will still generate a DD-214 both long and short form and the reason for your "seperation" (Homosexuality) will be listed on it. The type of discharge will usually be OTH (Other Than Honorable) because you have not entered basic training yet. I would strongly advise you to settle this BEFORE you report to basic training as it will be more difficult to get out once you are there, and sadly, there are often physical reprisals against homosexuals once they enter the military world and out themselves. The Navy will not only turn a blind eye, but in most cases, the drill instructor and or senior drill instructor may actually arrange for them to happen.

To my knowledge, the military does not recognize Bisexualtiy. You are either heterosexual or homosexual.

Unless things have changed dramatically since my experience in the Marines, I would ignore that ineternet thing about simply writing a letter to get out during your D.E.P. stage; it smacks of a hoax and could land you in allot of very hot water.

My information is based on when I was involved with them back in the very late 80's. They have not changed as much as they want everyone to think they have. I'm not trying to scare you, I simply want you to avoid making some rather costly mistakes because of some misinformation you saw on the web.

And DO NOT approach your recruiter with your sexuality, nor should you believe anything (even if it's in writing) that he or she said. If you do end up reporting for basic, you will see what I mean. You really need the advice of an attorney familiar with the rules and laws in the military. You can usually find one or two that will give a free consultation.

I wish you the very best of luck with this situation! Again, I can not stress this enough - do not simply fail to show up, do not think that writing a letter saying you've changed your mind is going to get you out. You have signed a very legal agreement with Uncle Sam, and he can be very pissy about folks trying to break agreements.

Please, take good care with this situation and let us know how it progresses.

[jamiehue]

Hi Joey~

I'm new here too, it's a great place full of great people! Hope to see you here often!

I have had some experience with this issue. Even though it is the "Delayed" Entry Program, it is still "Entry". Once you sign up, whether you DEP or not, you are enlisted in the United States Navy.

You now have an important decision to make that will impact the rest of your life.

DO NOT, I repeat- DO NOT simply fail to report. You will be listed as UA (Unauthorized Absence) and then AWOL (Absent With-Out Leave). They will start looking for you and if they need to do that, they won't be happy about it. No, they won't kick you out for failing to show, they can however toss you in the brig for a spell.

There are very few things that will get you out from under the obligation you have agreed to (enlistment). I would suggest you retain a CIVILIAN attorney who specializes or is very familiar with the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) or whatever they are calling it today to advise you on what you can do.

Immediately request to extend your DEP to the limit if you have not already done so, this will provide more time for you and your attorney to look at your options and decide which ones to pursue.

If all else fails, you may indeed have to "out" yourself in an effort to be discharged. At the stage you are in, this usually (but NOT always) results in something called an "Entry Level Seperation". This will still generate a DD-214 both long and short form and the reason for your "seperation" (Homosexuality) will be listed on it. The type of discharge will usually be OTH (Other Than Honorable) because you have not entered basic training yet. I would strongly advise you to settle this BEFORE you report to basic training as it will be more difficult to get out once you are there, and sadly, there are often physical reprisals against homosexuals once they enter the military world and out themselves. The Navy will not only turn a blind eye, but in most cases, the drill instructor and or senior drill instructor may actually arrange for them to happen.

To my knowledge, the military does not recognize Bisexualtiy. You are either heterosexual or homosexual.

Unless things have changed dramatically since my experience in the Marines, I would ignore that ineternet thing about simply writing a letter to get out during your D.E.P. stage; it smacks of a hoax and could land you in allot of very hot water.

My information is based on when I was involved with them back in the very late 80's. They have not changed as much as they want everyone to think they have. I'm not trying to scare you, I simply want you to avoid making some rather costly mistakes because of some misinformation you saw on the web.

And DO NOT approach your recruiter with your sexuality, nor should you believe anything (even if it's in writing) that he or she said. If you do end up reporting for basic, you will see what I mean. You really need the advice of an attorney familiar with the rules and laws in the military. You can usually find one or two that will give a free consultation.

I wish you the very best of luck with this situation! Again, I can not stress this enough - do not simply fail to show up, do not think that writing a letter saying you've changed your mind is going to get you out. You have signed a very legal agreement with Uncle Sam, and he can be very pissy about folks trying to break agreements.

Please, take good care with this situation and let us know how it progresses.
Listen to memphis, joey.

[Mimi]

Yeah, memphis has much more info than any of us so far. And my gut instinct was right about the heavy consequences of "just not showing up."

This was a huge decision you made, and so you will have to buckle down and get yourself out of this and that will take work because there's no "easy answer" when it's comes to the military.

I'm glad to hear that you're in counseling. I might recommend you talk to your counselor about getting back on meds if that was helping you stay more grounded. That is a personal decision of course.

Mimi :flag1:

[Joey19]

Thanks so much for all the replys everyone...

This is such a confusing time for me right now so im really happy you all took the time to help me out. I guess I'm just going to have to buckle down and do the work. I was just thinking though Mimi, if i were to be on meds the Navy would have to turn me down so maybe thats a good idea. I still even have a valid perscription to get them so that would be great. Now to begin the arduous process of getting them filled by the loacl phamrmacy here in my college town. Peace out folks! Have a great night/day/whatever!

Joey

P.S. - This (http://girights.objector.org/delayed-enlistment-program.html) is the site btw that i found the whole "letter" thing on and the not showing up thing on. Tell me what you think.

[CountryLover]

Joey, I've posted your situation on my other favorite site, ruralgay.com. There are a LOT of former and active duty military folks there who will have some answers for you I'm sure.

Til then, Memphis sure has some good advice for you.

[micha4u]

......... I might recommend you talk to your counselor about getting back on meds if that was helping you stay more grounded. That is a personal decision of course.Mimi :flag1:

.you weren't able to enlist when you were on the meds??...I'd think if the meds stopped you from getting in,they might also be your ticket out.A perscription,taken or not,,,and some documentation from your doctor may be all you need(??)

[Mimi]

I checked the "GI Rights" website and I think this part is useful:

"The military's list of reasons for not going includes: conscientious objection (a belief that it is wrong to take part in war); pursuit of higher education or vocational training; civilian job opportunity; erroneous enlistment or recruiting error; failure to graduate high school; family issues (marriage, children, hardship or dependency); homosexual conduct; medical or psychological disqualifications; personal problems..."

I'd rather you use the psychological reason than the "homosexual conduct" one, because I personally don't believe in that rule. Being gay or bi should not disqualify someone from being a soldier. But now I'm getting :offtopic:

Mimi :flag1:

[Brian]

Some solid advice in this thread I think. Good luck to you in your upcoming decisions Joey - you are at a serious fork in the road. Go slow, get lots of advice and be smart. Best of luck to you.

As my friend Mac who runs the Bi Men Network (http://www.bimen.org) website often tells his guys, "You are not alone".

- Drew :paw:

[BiMale]

Listen to Mimi.

Good luck,

BiMale :male: :tongue:

[jedinudist]

I checked the "GI Rights" website and I think this part is useful:

"The military's list of reasons for not going includes: conscientious objection (a belief that it is wrong to take part in war); pursuit of higher education or vocational training; civilian job opportunity; erroneous enlistment or recruiting error; failure to graduate high school; family issues (marriage, children, hardship or dependency); homosexual conduct; medical or psychological disqualifications; personal problems..."

I'd rather you use the psychological reason than the "homosexual conduct" one, because I personally don't believe in that rule. Being gay or bi should not disqualify someone from being a soldier. But now I'm getting :offtopic:

Mimi :flag1:

I strongly agree with Mimi that sexual orientation should not have anything to do with being allowed to serve your country. However, I recommended it over using a psychological reason as the DD-214 will follow you for the rest of your life. It is a permanent document that NEVER expires. Potential employers and educational institutions have the legal right to request it and even though we still live in the dark ages when it comes to the general public's view on sexuality, sexual orientation is much easier for a potential employer/college to accept than psychological reasons for discharge.

I do have a friend of mine that was literally within 2 weeks of graduating from the nuclear school (he is a genius and was set to design new nuclear powerplants for the govt.) when they found out he had been prescribed Ritalin as a child and young adult. He was immediately discharge OTH for not having disclosed this during enlistment. This after years of extremely expensive, top secret and higher level schooling.

You may have a chance based on what meds you were on and the fact that they prevented your enlistment the first time you tried. That coupled with the recruiter's knowledge that you were on them may help.

Again, your writing a letter is likely not going to have an effect. The govt.'s view is you should have thought this over before you signed yourself over.

Remember, the govt. is currently under "stop-loss" rules. There are folks who have already honorably served their entire enlistment who are not being allowed to leave because the armed forces are experiencing a severe personnel shortage.

Again, I STRONGLY recommend you do not rely on letters and meds alone. Retain an attorney familiar with the military before you run out of time. The consequenses you will suffer if you get out before reporting for basic are far less ugly than the ones you will suffer if you report and then succeed in getting out.

Once you are physically there, it's allot more difficult to get out.

Best of luck- please let us know how it's going.

[2fer'swife]

Hi,
I'm ex navy myself. Don't waste your time on trying to get out because you are gay or bi. I watched a marine try telling everyone he was bi (no idea whether it was true or not) He was ridiculed, but not discharged. I'd say Mimi's ideas are good, as is possibly going back on the meds. I would not recommend just not showing up.
That said, the Navy was very good for me all around. Self esteem and assurance was boosted, I got the GI bill, so now I get paid while I go to college...I know you sound nervous, but lots of people are nervous about it. If you can keep your sense of humor in bootcamp, active duty life afterwards is good. Whatever you decide, good luck!

[davenleftfield]

let me just suggest that you contact some "veterens against war" groups. no doubt there is info to be had on the internet. you'll probably get reliable info from them.

[binavyguy]

I don't normaly reply on here, but I had to step into this one. I have been in the Navy 15 years this month, there are some things that have not changed but there has been a lot of great changes in the military.
I am not going to riducule anyone or call anyone out, but some of you are off base on some of your thinking and advice. Not far off base, but a little out of date. Some of the advice is good though.
Joey, if you want to talk hit me up on email. tdalexander@hotmail.com I will provide you with some advice and dig up some information either at work or via the internet that you may not have access to and send it to you.
I don't remember exactly, but when you signed up for DEP did or have you taken your oath and signed your enlistment contract?
There are various variables at work here. First, your recruiter is a low down sorry excuse for a Sailor. He lied to you and forced you into lying on your paper work. These guys are under a lot of pressure and are/will do anything to sign people up because of the police actions we are involved in.
I would advise you against contacting any groups outside of the military itself. There are people that are in charge of your recruiting stations, the district commander, senior enlisted advisor etc, that you can talk to. With the medical issues you are experiencing, then have a certified doctor talk to someone at the recruiting station other than your recruiter.
IF you want to talk more email me. I will discuss things and send you information that I can found on this situation. I am in a position where I have to counsel my junior sailors almost everyday for situations related to their careers, enlisting, re-enlisting, etc.
Good Luck and let me know if you need any help.

[APMountianMan]

I once signed up and then changed my mind. They said that I couldn't quit too. But I told them I didn't want to do it and wasn't going to show up. I think as long as you don't report to duty, you will be fine if you change your mind. It's all a head game. They don't want you if you don't want to be there. Tell them the truth, write a letter of resignation and get on with your life. This is America, there is no draft.

:cool:

[jedinudist]

I sincerely apologize if my information is outdated. I have to base it on personal experience with the Marines in 1989.

I reported to M.E.P.S. Denver in April of 89, and so did a guy who had been in D.E.P. and decided it wasn't for him. He was supposed to have reported a week earlier and didn't. Although he never wrote a letter to anyone, he did make his change of heart known to his recruiter and the station boss a few months before he was supposed to report. They told him he was enlisted - end of story.

He didn't report to the recruiting station for the bus ride to M.E.P.S when he was supposed to. When they contacted him about his failure to report, he reminded them that he had changed his mind. He was given a choice to either report willingly or go in handcuffs, be processed in, and face the prospect of spending time in the brig. He obviously reported for processing. He was escorted through the process and to the airport. A Marine watched him get on the plane, and another Marine was waiting for him in San Diego. He ended up in my receiving platoon but in a different training platoon. We only had a few opportunities to chat, and one of the things he told me was that when he was contacted by the Marines for failing to report, his family spoke to and retained an attorney that did specialize in the Military. He said the attorney advised that Delayed Enlistment was essentially the same as normal enlistment with the difference being you get to wait longer before you actually report.

He was advised that there were indeed several ways to break the enlistment contract; i.e.- an ill family member that needed his presence, becoming the sole monetary provider in his family between enlistment and reporting for training, etc., but all of them would require verification. He then advised that there were several things "on a personal level" that would also get him out from under the obligation - certain diagnosed mental issues, certain medical issues, and of course- sexual orientation other than heterosexual.

Any one of the "personal issues" would be listed on his seperation and would follow him for the rest of his life.

I also unfortunately had to leave the Marines earlier than intended because of family hardship at home, but this happened much further along during training.

Again, I don't know how the Navy would approach this today, but I do know that in 1989, we were at "peace", we weren't under stop loss orders, and they were pretty pissy about the whole thing. Today, recruiters are routinely in trouble for not meeting their enlistment quotas, we're at war in Iraq, still heavily involved in Afghanistan, and are on the road to hostilities with a couple of other countries so I figure with all that to worry about, they might be a little more strict than normal.

That's why I advised you at least find an attorney familiar with the military and shoot for a free consult. They will be up to speed on what will and won't work.

Maybe you could just "not show up". That would be a big change from where they were back in my day. I hope what ever you choose works and doesn't get you in trouble.

Thanks to those with more recent experience for posting! I certainly wouldn't want to be responsible for steering this young man the wrong way. I'm just one of those guys who hopes for the best, but prepares for the worst with issues like these.

Best of Luck Joey!

[Sparks]

As a Vietnam Veteran, with a stepson now serving with the USMC in Afganistan, I can tell you first hand there there's not one recruit that didn't feel he made a major mistake. But there is a flip side to this coin. It is a hugh growth experience for a young man or woman to experience. With the Navy your educational opportunites are endless and excellent. My advice, hang in there dude. Years down the road, you won't regret it. And remember the rule, "don't ask, Don't tell" about your sexuality. Best of luck to you. :2cents:

[Joey19]

Hey everyone,

I'm surprised this thread is still alive but very happy that it is. I've actually been doing a little research with the help of binavyguy who, as you can see from his post, has been in the Navy for quite some time. According to the Department of Defense Directive 1332.14 (Section E3.A1.1.5.5. Seperation from the Delayed Entry Program), Section E3.A1.1.5.5.1. states "Basis. A person who is in the Delayed Entry Program may be separated because of ineligibility for enlistment under standards prescribed by the Secretary concerned or upon his or her request when authorized by the Secretary concerned." From my reading this would be considered an Entry-Level Seperation (Section E3.A2.1.3.3.1.) which is described in section E3.A2.1.3.3.1.1 as "A separation shall be described as an Entry-Level Separation if separation processing is initiated while a member is in entry-level status..." I've still got a whole lot of reading just to be 100% sure but I'f I can get my psychiatrist to write me an official letter stating that I would be mentally inable to serve effectly in the Navy I should be released. Granted, the recruiters and especially the station commander (who can be a hige DICK) arent going to be happy but it would be still worth it to me. I can deal with a liffle flack from them. Anyways, I'll keep you all updated as things progress.

Joey

[scubaman]

Joey, Listen to binavyguy! He has the most up to day information so far posted. (No offense to anyone and I say that respectfully) He is in the Navy and in a leadership position. I recently retired from the Navy, and was also in a position to council as well as prepare Article 15 cases, non-judical punishment. If you do not show on your report date, you will be listed as UA, when you go over 30 days be declared as a deserter. Just writing a letter will not get you out of the military. Have you taken your physical, if not, then talk to the doctor when getting it, if you have there are other options such as a licensed physician who can write a letter in your behalf. Mimi is on to something there. Please write me a email at scubaman53@yahoo.com and I will talk to you more. Take care and all of us don't want to see you really screw yourself!

[scubaman]

Hey Joey, What you read is correct, however as I stated to you in my email to you this morning, you need to get the documentation PRIOR to you reporting date, because the package has to go to the Sec of the Navy and that does take time. Contact the people I asked you to contact and I feel you will be fine. Remember the military is strapped for personnel right now due to overseas commitments and the military on a whole tends to be more serious about enlistment contracts during those periods. Good luck and you have my email address if you need any further advise. :2cents: