Female Genital Mutilation

[darkeyes]

From time to time in these forums we have discussed Female Genital Mutilation or if u prefer the term, female circumcision, a nasty cultural event in the lives of millions of African girls. Unlike male circumcision, performed when boys are babies in the vast majority of cases, this invasive and destructive procedure is performed very often not by medical professionals but by tribal witch doctors most usually when the girls are between 8 and 13 years of age.. many girls die as a result but all upon whom this procedure is performed will never know the true joy of sex.. in any case it is an awful assault and mutilation of a child far more invasive and extensive than the male "equivelant".

At last there appears to be some real progress to report on this shocking issue and in some countries the numbers of cases is beginning to drop. Not by anywhere near enough but it is undoubtedly progress.. long may it continue!!:) It is africans themselves who are making this progrees and are campaigning to change their cultures.. and it is often African women, often but not exclusively celebrities, who themselves have been so mutilated who lead the way...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/2011/feb/06/female-circumcision-sister-fa

[Long Duck Dong]

I am not going to go and drag up all the old threads where I said time and time again, don't try to change the culture, let the culture change themselves and they will embrace the change easier...

its simple understanding.... people resist forced change, but embrace change that they want to do.......

it will take time for FGM to be gone and it may never been fully gone.... but by allowing the natural change and choice, the society will embrace a non fgm way of life

the same lesson is in society with the LGBT, they try and force change, and lose..... instead of working to create a environment when change is embraced by the mainstream, they try and force the mainstream to change to suit the LGBT and thats why prop 8 and DADT have been such big fights

[void()]

I agree with not forcing views on others. That said I disagree with letting others harm others, too. Suppose I'll remain on a fence.

[Drkluvtheory99]

I agree with not forcing views on others. That said I disagree with letting others harm others, too. Suppose I'll remain on a fence.

I agree as well with not forcing change on other cultures as well as not harming others. There are so many issues that have people on the fence such as abortion. At least for me I agree with a womans right to choose but I dont agree with the actual act so as human beings we toss and turn with living on the fence and constantly have to choose. Just my 2 cents.

[bigbadmax]

What about male mutilation? Should this also be stopped?
Very dangerous to swim in the cultural "shark pool".

[darkeyes]

Max, we have also discussed male circumcision over the last few years on a number of occasions if you care to check back.. sometimes as a result of debates on the subject of this thread.. and believe me while the issue of the female raises hackles one way or other, compared to the barneys about male circumcision, these have been rather tame affairs.. very strong opinions exist on both sides of the argument about male genital mutilation, including my own of course.. but I didn't post this thread to start a debate about the issue of female genital mutilation and certainly not that of the male.. merely to inform that welcome progress is happening on an issue which affects millions of women.. and happening because Africans and African women in particular, are making headway at long last..:)

[Bluebiyou]

...Unlike male circumcision, performed when boys are babies in the vast majority of cases, this invasive and destructive procedure is performed very often not by medical professionals but by tribal witch doctors most usually when the girls are between 8 and 13 years of age.. many girls die as a result but all upon whom this procedure is performed will never know the true joy of sex.. in any case it is an awful assault and mutilation of a child far more invasive and extensive than the male "equivelant".



TSK TSK
Fran,...
Fran...
while your primary direction in this thread is correct.
Your side inferences are misguided.
Please remember.
Do no harm
Do no harm
Do no harm
It is part of the Hippocratic oath,
It is an essential tenant of Buddhism.
And thus, in humanism must be scorned.
I agree FGM is abhorred to morality of any sentient being.
but for the exact reasons
I agree MGM is abhorred to morality of any sentient being.
There is no comparison to male circumcision except:
There are social variants in a wide range of cultures that ignore the principle:
Do no harm.
Female circumcision is just as wrong as male... for the moral reasons.
Please don't justify.
I love you Fran and would willingly stand in front of a bullet meant for you.
You are younger and much more important than I.
I celebrate the victory and advance of your humanism!

[darkeyes]

... precisely why Blue darlin', I placed the word "equivalent" in quotes when referring to male circumcision.. it is not really an equivalent procedure. I made no effort whatever to justify male circumcision, because I am equally opposed to that except in cases of pressing medical need and where the individual is mature enough to be able to make the decision for himself, merely use it as that side reference of which you speak..

[lizard-lix]

From my perspective, male circumcision has definitely positive health and hygiene aspects, yes it is mutilation, but so is my pierced ear.

Female mutilation (calling it circumcision is a bad joke), is a ruination. Removal of the clitoris, and the sealing of the labia is horrific, brutal, uncivilized and in complete opposition male circumcision has no redeeming hygienic benefit, in fact quite the opposite as the closure of the labia, prevents good hygiene.

My wife was a practicing Physician's Assistant in NY just outside of the city and saw a number of women mutilated this way. The cultural pressure is amazing as most of these women had no hesitation saying they would have the same done to their daughters.

Complete bafflement...

So like was said above, change the culture... The body follows where the eye looks and the mind sees.

OTOH, I am completely happy with my cut cock, it's been working fine for almost 55 years and I am kinda attached to it just the way it is :-) I have the same bafflement when folks make a big deal about it. I have never had an uncut one (parents had it done by the religious clock at 8 days), but I don't get a real difference based on conversation and comparing notes.. I've never gotten to play with an uncut cock, so again.. no direct experience (when I was playing with men, before I got married, everyone was circumcised).

Liz

[Hephaestion]

......Female mutilation (calling it circumcision is a bad joke), is a ruination. Removal of the clitoris, and the sealing of the labia is horrific, brutal, uncivilized and ..... has no redeeming hygienic benefit, in fact quite the opposite as the closure of the labia, prevents good hygiene.........

There are degrees of action. Need to emphasise that 'sealing' of the labia is not complete so as to allow draining of urine and menses. Also, 'sealing' is not always carried out.

Otherwise in complete agreement - a dreadful practice whatever the degree of action. If one believes the various accounts of the practice, a knife can be needed to open up the 'sealed' entrance to the vagina for obligatory marital coitus.

Of course, the same religious domain that accepts this FGM also condemns the frequent practice of homosexuality as a sexual substitute and yet proclaims that 'there is no greater service that can be done for one's fellow man than to honour him with one's body'.

[sammie19]

From my perspective, male circumcision has definitely positive health and hygiene aspects, yes it is mutilation, but so is my pierced ear.

Female mutilation (calling it circumcision is a bad joke), is a ruination. Removal of the clitoris, and the sealing of the labia is horrific, brutal, uncivilized and in complete opposition male circumcision has no redeeming hygienic benefit, in fact quite the opposite as the closure of the labia, prevents good hygiene.

My wife was a practicing Physician's Assistant in NY just outside of the city and saw a number of women mutilated this way. The cultural pressure is amazing as most of these women had no hesitation saying they would have the same done to their daughters.

Complete bafflement...

So like was said above, change the culture... The body follows where the eye looks and the mind sees.

OTOH, I am completely happy with my cut cock, it's been working fine for almost 55 years and I am kinda attached to it just the way it is :-) I have the same bafflement when folks make a big deal about it. I have never had an uncut one (parents had it done by the religious clock at 8 days), but I don't get a real difference based on conversation and comparing notes.. I've never gotten to play with an uncut cock, so again.. no direct experience (when I was playing with men, before I got married, everyone was circumcised).

Liz

Like everyone else I abhor the practice of female circumcision, and it is great to see that it is at last beginning to reduce in frequency in some countries. I agree that it is best that those affected should do things for themselves but do feel that without some pressure and criticism from the outside world nothing would change.

As for male circumcision, I prefer an uncut penis at any time. That may be a cultural preference but in most of the developed world it is the medical as well as cultural preference with the hygeine and health issues being considered of insufficient priority to be necessary.

Most developed countries do not encourage precautionary surgery. I would not for instance sacrifice my breast or any other part of my body merely as a precaution against cancer. It is allowed but only after considerable thought and taken with the informed consent of the patient. The exception to this is male circumcision where a parent is able to insist on it being carried out. In fact very few people are even asked about whether they want their son circumcised, and it is most common for parents to request it than hospitals to offer it. Very few take up the opportunity outside of the religious realm, and even then most religions in the UK and Europe do not encourage it either. Increasing numbers of Jewish people for instance are refusing to have their sons circumcised. I am unable to comment on the Moslem population but in time I think cultural changes will occur there also which will see a further decrease in the practice.

I have no objection to any male being circumcised. But it must be their choice, and not a choice of any outsider. I do however have my choice of refusing to bed with one. Not all women in my country take it to such extreme, but most do prefer the original unmutilated version. Those too are cultural preferences but my own is one I hold and experience has taught me is far more fulfilling in more ways than one.

[darkeyes]

Like everyone else I abhor the practice of female circumcision, and it is great to see that it is at last beginning to reduce in frequency in some countries. I agree that it is best that those affected should do things for themselves but do feel that without some pressure and criticism from the outside world nothing would change.

As for male circumcision, I prefer an uncut penis at any time. That may be a cultural preference but in most of the developed world it is the medical as well as cultural preference with the hygeine and health issues being considered of insufficient priority to be necessary.

Most developed countries do not encourage precautionary surgery. I would not for instance sacrifice my breast or any other part of my body merely as a precaution against cancer. It is allowed but only after considerable thought and taken with the informed consent of the patient. The exception to this is male circumcision where a parent is able to insist on it being carried out. In fact very few people are even asked about whether they want their son circumcised, and it is most common for parents to request it than hospitals to offer it. Very few take up the opportunity outside of the religious realm, and even then most religions in the UK and Europe do not encourage it either. Increasing numbers of Jewish people for instance are refusing to have their sons circumcised. I am unable to comment on the Moslem population but in time I think cultural changes will occur there also which will see a further decrease in the practice.

I have no objection to any male being circumcised. But it must be their choice, and not a choice of any outsider. I do however have my choice of refusing to bed with one. Not all women in my country take it to such extreme, but most do prefer the original unmutilated version. Those too are cultural preferences but my own is one I hold and experience has taught me is far more fulfilling in more ways than one.

I do agree with you, Sam.. it is interesting that the US which has no publicly owned health service and where people pay for treatments, the medical profession encourages boys to be circumcised for the very reasons Lizard-lix states whereas in those countries where the health service is publicly owned and funded and free at point of use, the opposite is the case.. far be it for me to accuse the US medical profession that they love money and are selfish greedy bastards.. it can also be argued that in the other system their view is about penny pinching, but I dont think so.. preventative surgery should always be the informed choice of the individual.. and the only way the individual can do that is to be old enough and aware enough to make that choice, no matter the procedure... but what is interesting is that in the US circumcision rates are beginning to drop.. so maybe so is the penny...

[lizard-lix]

I have no objection to any male being circumcised. But it must be their choice, and not a choice of any outsider. I do however have my choice of refusing to bed with one. Not all women in my country take it to such extreme, but most do prefer the original unmutilated version. Those too are cultural preferences but my own is one I hold and experience has taught me is far more fulfilling in more ways than one.

WOW! I can certainly understand preferences, but to NOT bed someone simply because their parents chose to have then circumcised seems awfully extreme! I'd put it in the same category as rejecting someone ONLY because of piercings or tats (even if, in general these are the person's choice to self mutilate). Again, certainly your choice, but is really seems like tossing out the baby with the bathwater...

Would you not bed an amputee, simply because they had lost a limb?

Liz..

[sammie19]

WOW! I can certainly understand preferences, but to NOT bed someone simply because their parents chose to have then circumcised seems awfully extreme! I'd put it in the same category as rejecting someone ONLY because of piercings or tats (even if, in general these are the person's choice to self mutilate). Again, certainly your choice, but is really seems like tossing out the baby with the bathwater...

Would you not bed an amputee, simply because they had lost a limb?

Liz..

I have had sex with a few men who were circumcised. It was those experiences which made me realise that a circumcised man is not for me. I found sex not it as fulfilling or nearly enjoyable as sex with a man who was uncircumcised. Both orally and vaginally the experiences were not nearly so much fun or satisfying. That is why I make my choice and for no other reason. I do not find the penis as attractive aesthetically if circumcised either but again that is cultural and not what I'm used to.

Regarding amputees, I have slept with a woman who had a finger missing but never a male amputee. Would I do so? I think so but since the opportunity has never arisen I cant say with any certainty. I have frequently had sex with both men and women who have body jewellery and that doesnt bother me a bit. I wont however consider man or woman who has very poorly cared for teeth or no teeth other than those provided by the NHS or some other dentistry body. We all have preferences in who we will and wont have sex with. I cant help mine any more than you do yours. Who we are attracted to is very much a matter of taste.

[darkeyes]

.. bad teeth or no teeth?? God Sam... yas sent a horrible shiver all ova me now!!! Gross!!!:eek:

[dafydd]

yeah it's awful both male and female mutilation... don't mind being with cut or uncut guys but thank god I am uncut. the feeling of my foreskin gliding over my head when I fuck is pretty awesome.

d

[bigbadmax]

The W.H.O states there are no health benefits to female circ/mut.
The arguments for it are very week by my very limited checks.

[Hephaestion]

FGM has never been about the woman's health and well being. So the WHO are battling a mythical concept.

FGM is entirely about ownership and servitude.