Nationality

[bigbadmax]

I was born in England, raised in England and still live in England so I am English. My mother and father were Irish... I am English.

Odd to mention the above; or is it?

Why do Americans always say phrases such as AFRICAN AMERICAN, ITALIAN AMERICAN etc
or IM PART GERMAN,PART RUSSIAN AND PART IRISH etc

Granted if you are born in one country and move to another, then you can choose your "nationality". Why invent new terms... If you so desperately want to be "Irish" etc then move there, not try and cling on to a "heritage" that your familly has not known in over 3 generations.

If I were to say Im part this,that n tother id be here all day as technically we are all descended from one common ancestral line(creationists are now up in arms).now to upset the supremacists... They were very heavily tanned!

[DuckiesDarling]

You know I think you might like this video by John Wayne explaining the hyphen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuzLTrwVbc

[bigbadmax]

You know I think you might like this video by John Wayne explaining the hyphen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fuzLTrwVbc

Love it- corny but - I love it;)

[darkeyes]

Go back a bit farther and our ancestors were short and stumpy with long arms and short legs, little brains and walked on all fours most of the time and picked and ate beasties off each other.. bit farther than that they were little furry things about the size of mice or shrews which they resembled.. bit farther again and they were part of the primordial sludge.. ;)

[DuckiesDarling]

Go back a bit farther and our ancestors were short and stumpy with long arms and short legs, little brains and walked on all fours most of the time and picked and ate beasties off each other.. bit farther than that they were little furry things about the size of mice or shrews which they resembled.. bit farther again and they were part of the primordial sludge.. ;)

and at times you could swear our beloved partners had crawled back into the sludge :tong:

[bigbadmax]

and at times you could swear our beloved partners had crawled back into the sludge :tong:

That sludge gets in all the wrong places at the health spa:eek:

[Long Duck Dong]

Go back a bit farther and our ancestors were short and stumpy with long arms and short legs, little brains and walked on all fours most of the time and picked and ate beasties off each other.. bit farther than that they were little furry things about the size of mice or shrews which they resembled.. bit farther again and they were part of the primordial sludge.. ;)

mmm sounds like some people I know lol

I am full scottish born and bred from renfrew aka Siorrachd Rinn Friù ....and live in NZ... but I am fucked if I will call myself a scottish nz'er, or a kilt wearing sheep shagger ( for the aussies )

[bigbadmax]

mmm sounds like some people I know lol

I am full scottish born and bred from renfrew aka Siorrachd Rinn Friù ....and live in NZ... but I am fucked if I will call myself a scottish nz'er, or a kilt wearing sheep shagger ( for the aussies )

My brother in law is cajun, loves wearing his kilt... But remind me, what clan does a coonass(?) belong? Lol

ps i do have a legit kilt.

[bizel]

i was once a manager of a older bloke who had irish parents. it was at the time of some middleeastern protest about americans. we watched young middle eastern blokes getting all hot under the collar in sydney, raving anti-american slogans. my courier sat snorting saying they should send all these young blokes back where they came from. then he complained about the english treatment of the irish. i asked him when he had lived in ireland. never, but he had listened to his parents complaining around the dinner table about them. i pointed out that his protests made about as much sense as the young bloke, and if we followed his advice, he himself should be deported back to 'the old country' which he had never visited. it shut him up for about three minutes. i have welsh, scottish, english, german, french ancestory, was born in new zealand but i'm australian now. have a soft spot for nz, but am more aussie than some aussies. i chose this country, not just here by accident of birth. did see some documentary that said we all descended from africa. doubt we'll all ever accept we're all the same under the skin. shame about that.

[tenni]

I think that it may be a New World thing.(read North America)

I am sixth generation Canadian on the longest line of my lineage in Ontario(Upper Canada at the time). My first ancestor that I know about in North America was a pioneer and Irish from Killybegs, Donnegal, Ireland. He was the first Justice of the Peace and teacher of a pioneer community even before there was a country of Canada. Another male ancestor came to Canada as a 12 year old indentured servant at the turn of the 1900.

I think that this hyphenated nationality comes about in North America because we are the land of the immigrants. As a child in Canada, people would describe themselves as being anything but Canadian or hyphenated Canadian if they were first or second generation Canadian. I felt incomplete when asked, I really could only say Canadian. They would ask, "no what are you really?" when I said Canadian. I'd have to go with Irish. I'm genetically Irish 100%. I look Irish but I'm Canuck by nationality. It isn't until my generation that we began to intermarry outside of Irish and only the second generation to marry outside of being Irish Catholic. I've wondered if that was due to discrimination or what caused the isolation ? Irish Catholic was apparently bad in Ontario. I went back to one of my ancestorial territories and it was interesting but as one Irish guy in Dublin said..."I don't think that they'll be there" :)...after over 150 years.

Then again, in Canada, we may also refer to ourselves as "English" or "French" and be neither as we are a bilingual country.(officially) Sometimes refer to ourselves as "French Canadian" but rarely "English Canadian" unless of English ancestory.

[darkeyes]

I think our personal ancestry is interesting no more than that.. possibly because I live in an old country in the old world, we do not feel quite the same need to know what our ancestry is.. I know a little not that much. I tend to look forward and only look back so I can better do that.. my interest in what has gone before in our world is deep but in my personal family history? Not really.. it is what it is whatever that is.. a bit of this and that.. thats good enough for me.. and my nationality? It is merely an incidental occurence down to where I was born.. I am a human being first and foremost..

[AidanS57]

I'm just American, better half is all Native American.

Aidan

[Arthas]

My ancestors were Serbs who were more-less forcefully moved to this places (borderline Upland district) during Turkish invasion (beginning of the 16th century). I consider myself a Serb in their honor, but I have Croatian and Bosnian (muslim) blood. I grew up in Croatia but was treated like a Serb so I behave like them more-less and have their traits (more like stereotipes). I was only Serb in my class in elementary school and I stared to go to elementary a few years after Yugoslav war so I got beat up a lot etc.

[Realist]

I guess America is filled to the brim with mostly Mongrels. The American Indian were here first, so the rest of us are interlopers. The Indians should had a much stricter immigration policy!

It was interesting visiting England, Germany, and Austria............ meeting people who can trace their family trees back to the 14th-15th centuries, and before, having always lived in the same locations as their ancestors.

[welickit]

We see Nationality as just another label ......like bisexual, gay or straight. :2cents:

[darkeyes]

We see Nationality as just another label ......like bisexual, gay or straight. :2cents:

.. like man woman child boy girl human tree dog cat earth sun moon welickit darkeyes fran kate house roof internet telly radio music musician film penis vagina breast leg foot hand american european arab african asian etc etc etc etc... try communicating without labelling... it isnt easy let me assure u..

[goldenfinger]

Was born in Denmark, but now Australian. My family goes back to my grandparent, before that, the bloodline becomes too diluted to mean anything.:cool:

[artl68]

Was adopted when a baby,I'm just who I am: a bisexual american.;)

[12voltman59]

Whether we like to think its true or not in the US--but we still carry our ancestral baggage inside us--still got the "tribal thing" going on---and that's enmity between those of us who are "white and Christian" with there still being divisions among Irish, Italians, Scotts, English, German, etc, let alone the divisions caused with religions with protestants not liking Catholics and vice versa and the many protestant faiths disliking the others, arguing over which faith best and truly represents God, then of course--we have the strains of antisemitism and most clearly of all---divisions along "racial lines" especially the black/white divide.

We have come a long way to get rid of most of the worst aspects of those differences, but sadly, not nearly quite enough.

We still do have the case in many of our larger, northern cities that say if you are of Irish descent in a predominately Italian neighborhood or vice versa--it can be a case of "hey you freaking Mick---get the fuck outta here or we are gonna kick your fucking ass!!" or something of that nature--- you can simply exchange both of those ethnicities/nationalities with just about any others of your choice.

Now we have in many places a new version of this springing up when it comes to gangs---it depends on what gang territory you are in but you could get killed right off even if you aren't a gang member but come from one of their rival gang's neighborhoods since by their way of thinking---people who live in each gang's respective zones "is the property of that gang."

It was a case not all that long ago in one part of my "home territory" I roam around here in my state that has this one region largely settled by German immigrants. Keep in mind that these were Catholic Germans. They put up a series of very large, almost mini-cathedrals in their small farming communities---with them all being so close--on a clear day, you can see off on the horizon in the heart of this region, nearly each and everyone of those churches. Just adjacent to this area was another zone settled by Irish Catholics.

In the German areas, you would see signs in the windows of businesses that would say things like: "Dogs welcome, Irishmen aren't" and "Help Wanted, NO IRISH NEED APPLY!!"

We are talking about such signs being posted well up to the 1960s when they started making laws and enforcing them to prohibit such things.

That was how extreme the enmity was between two peoples, bound by the same faith but separated by their country of origin. It was the case though that the Irish were not nearly as hateful towards the Germans as the Germans were towards the Irish.

I had this dynamic within my own family--my namesake grandfather was Irish who married a German woman and she was totally cut off from her family for having married "an Irish dog!!" My dad said that as a kid---he and his brothers and sisters, when they did see their German cousins were very badly treated by them.


I wish that it really were a case that the fabled "American melting pot" were really truly and fully the case---but old hatreds, prejudices and the like are a hard thing to get out of the minds, hearts and souls of people.

We have come along way to do away with much of that nonsense--but the vestiges of it still lingers.

[12voltman59]

Doing a separate post to talk about the John Wayne clip--that was pretty good--I never had heard of that before.

While I was pretty much a Big Duke fan when I was a kid---it is hard to watch some of the "westerners" he did that didn't present "the red man" in a very good light---his movies tended to present the native peoples as "those red savages" hell bent on stopping the good white folks from realizing their "manifest destiny" "white man's burden" rights to this land and all contained therein, with the "injun savages" on the war path to stop "progress and civilization."

Native people were mostly portrayed by white men in the John Wayne/John Ford movies with red skin tint and they always that clipped tongue way of speaking "ohh, white man speaked with forked tongue--white man no good!!" kinda crap.

I have to wince when I see such portrayals of native peoples now in those old films now.

I do wonder if it ever bothered The Duke that his movies did so much to set a negative view of native peoples in the minds of the majority white society and did so much to help destroy the societies of our land's native peoples and by extension---the way that native people often came to think of themselves as less than human and to not deserve anything good in their lives???

[DuckiesDarling]

Doing a separate post to talk about the John Wayne clip--that was pretty good--I never had heard of that before.

While I was pretty much a Big Duke fan when I was a kid---it is hard to watch some of the "westerners" he did that didn't present "the red man" in a very good light---his movies tended to present the native peoples as "those red savages" hell bent on stopping the good white folks from realizing their "manifest destiny" "white man's burden" rights to this land and all contained therein, with the "injun savages" on the war path to stop "progress and civilization."

Native people were mostly portrayed by white men in the John Wayne/John Ford movies with red skin tint and they always that clipped tongue way of speaking "ohh, white man speaked with forked tongue--white man no good!!" kinda crap.

I have to wince when I see such portrayals of native peoples now in those old films now.

I do wonder if it ever bothered The Duke that his movies did so much to set a negative view of native peoples in the minds of the majority white society and did so much to help destroy the societies of our land's native peoples and by extension---the way that native people often came to think of themselves as less than human and to not deserve anything good in their lives???

I'd have to say no, Volt, when you remember the Playboy interview:

In an interview with Playboy magazine published on May 1, 1971, Wayne made several controversial remarks about race and class in the United States. The interview became a hot topic and many stores had trouble keeping the issue in stock.[42] He noted that, as someone living in the 20th century, he was not responsible for the way people who lived one hundred years before him had treated Native Americans, stating:


I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from them if that's what you're asking. Our so called stealing of this country was just a question of survival. There were great numbers of people who needed new land the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves.... Look, I'm sure there have been inequalities. If those inequalities are presently affecting any of the Indians now alive, they have a right to a court hearing. But what happened 100 years ago in our country can't be blamed on us today. I'm quite sure that the concept of a Government-run reservation... seems to be what the socialists are working for now — to have everyone cared for from cradle to grave.... What happened between their forefathers and our forefathers is so far back -- right, wrong or indifferent -- that I don't see why we owe them anything. I don't know why the government should give them something that it wouldn't give me.[43][44]

But that falls back on his entire Hyphen speech. We are Americans, end of story. Build a bridge or make a wall but in the end we are all Americans.

[bigbadmax]

The one part that resonates of that interview is why should we be accountable for ancestors actions?

It achieves nothing to apologise for slavery, especially when it stil exists, except to have "activists" stroke their ego and have their five minutes of fame.

If I start attacking Lincoln for being racist and a murderer...will you attack me?

[DuckiesDarling]

The one part that resonates of that interview is why should we be accountable for ancestors actions?

It achieves nothing to apologise for slavery, especially when it stil exists, except to have "activists" stroke their ego and have their five minutes of fame.

If I start attacking Lincoln for being racist and a murderer...will you attack me?

If you accuse Lincoln of being a racist and murderer, probably. Since Lincoln went to war to free the slaves.

[bigbadmax]

DD

Look again at YOUR history, written with bias..he may have signed the emancipation but he gave the order to MURDER native americans.

If Lincoln was so great, why did it take 100 years for equal rights?

[DuckiesDarling]

DD

Look again at YOUR history, written with bias..he may have signed the emancipation but he gave the order to MURDER native americans.

If Lincoln was so great, why did it take 100 years for equal rights?

Max,

With all due respect, the push West was not just at Lincoln's behest. He kinda died in 1865 and most of the major campaigns occured after the Civil War. Lincoln was a soldier, a Captain during the Black Hawk War. As someone with Native American in my family history I am in no way proud of what was done to my ancestors by my ancestors. But it's history.

As for why it took over 100 years for Equal Rights... the South had to free the slaves, they didn't have to like it. They were still voters in a democracy and it still took approval to add a Constitutional Amendment. And some would argue that even with our first black president, there is still not equal rights.
DD

[bigbadmax]

DD

What about the 39 he ordered to be hanged purely because they were native?

[bigbadmax]

DD

Obama aint black... Hes mixed race without a birth cert!

[DuckiesDarling]

DD

What about the 39 he ordered to be hanged purely because they were native?

So he should have ordered all 303 hanged? He reviewed the trials and the convictions and only ordered the hanging of Sioux who were found to be guilty of mass murder of women and children in Minnesota.

Anything else you want to know go study a history book. I've already said I'm not proud of what my ancestors did to my ancestors and I refuse to debate this point further.

[nudistharry]

I was born in England, raised in England and still live in England so I am English. My mother and father were Irish... I am English.

Odd to mention the above; or is it?

Why do Americans always say phrases such as AFRICAN AMERICAN, ITALIAN AMERICAN etc
or IM PART GERMAN,PART RUSSIAN AND PART IRISH etc

Granted if you are born in one country and move to another, then you can choose your "nationality". Why invent new terms... If you so desperately want to be "Irish" etc then move there, not try and cling on to a "heritage" that your familly has not known in over 3 generations.

If I were to say Im part this,that n tother id be here all day as technically we are all descended from one common ancestral line(creationists are now up in arms).now to upset the supremacists... They were very heavily tanned!

I don't like the hyphenated labels. You're eihther an American or your not, IMHO.
Sometimes on things that ask for "race" I'll check "OTHER" and write in "European-American" to point out how silly the "hyphen-American" terms are.
I'm contemplating checking "OTHER" and writing in "Earthling".
:)

[darkeyes]

If you accuse Lincoln of being a racist and murderer, probably. Since Lincoln went to war to free the slaves.

Actually he didn't Darlin' darlin'.. he went to war to prevent the southern states secession from the union becoming permanent.. emancipation came well after the war began. That emancipation was a principal issue for secession is not in doubt, but it was the integrity of the union which was at stake..plus of course the little fact that it wasnt northern forces which fired the first shots of the war...

.. was he a great man? Undoubtedly for his time, he was a great man.. was he a racist? I dont think so, not in the sense we think of racism today.. he was a man of his time and his attitudes reflected this.. his dealings on many things were imperfect and reflected his time and his values. He made many mistakes, yet without doubt he was a flawed, but undisputedly, great man of his day..

[DuckiesDarling]

Fran? That was one of the main causes of secession. The Confederate States of America wanted to keep their slave labor way of life.

[darkeyes]

Fran? That was one of the main causes of secession. The Confederate States of America wanted to keep their slave labor way of life.

I think I made that clear Darlin' darlin.. but it wasnt the whole reason... had the south seceded even without slavery being an issue it is likely that Lincoln would have warred on the south to keep the union intact.. but in any case that is moot, since was it not the forces of the Confederacy who fired the first shots at Fort Sumter?

[DuckiesDarling]

I think I made that clear Darlin' darlin.. but it wasnt the whole reason... had the south seceded even without slavery being an issue it is likely that Lincoln would have warred on the south to keep the union intact.. but in any case that is moot, since was it not the forces of the Confederacy who fired the first shots at Fort Sumter?

Fran, Abolition was the root cause of the secession movement. I do know my own history, thanks.

[darkeyes]

Fran, Abolition was the root cause of the secession movement. I do know my own history, thanks.

I agree..I havent said for one minute it was anything other... stop sounding so nowty!!;)

[Hephaestion]

Sadly DD, there is much truth in what Darkeyes says.

Slavery was the incidental issue which later gained prominence. Your history is also our history; Britain was obliged to pay reparations to the Union for supporting the Confederacy.

[bigbadmax]

Didnt mean to shake the hornets nest.