Sexuality and Children [Archive]

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 4:00 AM

In a post earlier this week and at other times I have said that in the UK, homosexuality is pretty well accepted by most people, but that I am sure that at some stage there will be a backlash by the forces of bigotry to this state if affairs.. in a way there has been a mini backlash but so far it is not that serious yet it is a little discomforting, as the tool they iuse to bash us over the head with is our children, our education of them, and the decision by our society to offer protection to gay children. A number of prominent MPs and journalists have been niggling away at this and concocting little scenarios in an attempt to udnermine society's current position on homosexuality..

It is not surprising they use children to chip away at us, for there is little so emotive as homosexuality and children. It is for us in the UK to chip away at their prejudice and the misleading way they develop their "theories" and claims..

As a schoolteacher I have witnessed at first hand the misery inflicted upon several gay children by bigotry and the corruption not of gay children by theur parent sor anyone else, but by those children's peers who through parental and other influences have heaped such misery upon gay children in spades..

This link is well worth a read as we continue to sstruggle to over come the prejudice which many still feel toward those they consider not of the "norm", and outlines the sort of muck they wish spread in our society, and which we should be even more determined to stop..

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-why-is-it-wrong-to-protect-gay-children-2196470.html

DuckiesDarling

Jan 28, 2011, 4:21 AM

Long Duck Dong

Jan 28, 2011, 4:30 AM

ok.... lets stop and remember lance lundsten for a moment.... the gay student that committed suicide cos of gay bullying..... you know the one.... he died from a edema caused by a enlarged heart... think about it.....

now if you make a group stand out, you make targets out of them..... its the same lesson taught in the military... hence you never saluted a officer in nam...

the same with the lgbt, we make targets out of people, than complain cos they are made into targets for bullying etc......

in nz they tried the same tactics.... gay kids are 9 times more likely to commit suicide cos of bullying than straight kids.... and 18 kids died in one year from suicide, 2 of them were gay......

in nz we do not make targets out of the kids cos we do not encourage them to be targets, .... we do not run support groups in schools so they stand out.... bullying is treated as unacceptable REGARDLESS of who is bullied.......
yet its the greenies and pacifists that have successful removed the ability of the schools to effectively deal with bullies.... and told the bullies that under the age of 16, you can not legally be prosecuted by the police.....

hence we have some of the worst bullying the country has seen.... and teachers and principals being yelled at by parents for not doing anything,.... and what can they do.... legally you can not expel the school bullies, as they have the right to a education so you have to allow them to attend school.... thats right...allow them to stay in school and continue to bully students.....

yeah, there is two sides to the story..... and as usual the way that people thought best..... is not working..... the incidences of gay bullying is on the increase...... as gay students become more visible and find that there is no * safe guard * for the students as there is equal rights.... and anti discrimination...... remember that word.... anti discrimination..... the same law that stops people being discriminated against,.... doesn't allow for lgbt students to have special treatment...they have to be treated the same as all students.......

again.... remember the call phrases about being out and proud... be yourself, be lgbt.... equal rights.... equal discrimination????? now who is taking responsibility for what they created..... not the lgbt, not the pro rights groups, not the equal rights..... no.... they are mourning the increased death rate and the inability of the schooling system to do anything about it......

we warned them of the dangers.... we were told we were wrong... its all about promoting change and better living for all........ so fran... why is it not working and why it is that everybody is now talking talking talking talking...... and people are commiting suicide more.......

could it be that your much toted ways are not working again..... and those that commit suicide ( remember that the non lgbt are collateral damage ) are proof that its gone wrong......

I may not know what I am talking about.... according to many people... but what I say.... is proven time and time again.... in blood.... other peoples......

this is one time I wish I was so very very very wrong......and that we were not burying people cos of one eyed people pushing their own agenda......

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 4:41 AM

Interesting article, Fran, but doesn't explain why sexuality needs to be taught in schools at all, let alone as a main part of a curriculum and influencing every class. Parents send their children to school to learn how to read, how to write, how to multiply, how to speak different languages and solve difficult problems. Children in today's society are taught how to balance a checkbook and complete General Ledgers in Microsoft Excel format and create presentations in PowerPoint than can make a saint cry.

There is a fine line between the education of children and the indoctrination of children. There are some things that you are better off educating the parents and leaving it to them to instill values in their children. Saying that the majority of parents are homophobes won't wash since 8 out of 10 people in the United Kingdom support gay marriage, I'd lay odds that 6 out of those 8 are parents who have no ulterior motive in their children's sexuality, they just want them to be happy.

The slurs like "you're gay" have been hurled on playgrounds for a very long time and they won't end until a newer insult makes the rounds. Yes, something needs to be done, but bringing it into schools using tax dollars is not the way to grow your allies.

I havent said that the majority of parents are homphobes.. many are.. thats my point.. and educatiuong parents I agree.. and that has been ongoing for half a century yet still we have homphibic parents, and prob always will have..

.. but in our schools we educate children in citizenship and human relations.. about right and wrong.. homosexuality is but a very small part of human relations.. indoctrinate? Hmmmm I agree about the thin line.. but there is more indoctrination about heterosuality than ever about homosexuality in Scottish schools.. and I would suspect, in our other partners in the UK.

If only parents would discuss with their children matters sex.. so few do except to say "thou shalt not.." and often ram their prejudices down their kids throats.. Many gay chiuldren suffer because of that prejudice.. many children havent a clue about contraception because their parents wont allow discussion of matters of es in the home.. and there are many other wonts.. thats partly why we have so many instances of STD's and teen preganancy etcd etc etc etc.. There is no handbook goes with being a parent.. there are so many different ways parents raise their children.. the education system has to play its part in educating children in human relationships.. often this will conflict with parents ideas.. how English or Maths is taught or whether history is taught, or Graphic Design, or arts and crafts does that.. there are so many different ideas about how and what we teach that if we pandered to everyones wants and wonts, there would be no education at all..

DuckiesDarling

Jan 28, 2011, 4:47 AM

You know Tenni posted an excellent link before about what Canada was going to offer in the curriculum as part of one class the different sexuality spectrums. In that same class would be taught about STDS, AIDS and HIV and how to prevent pregancy.

That was one class, not the entire spectrum of classes as posited by the article.

But I can't help feeling that it might be a push to make toy soldiers out of the children, putting them on the frontlines of any bashing and vitriol without any helping hands when the shit hits the fan.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 28, 2011, 5:20 AM

ok... I went to school in the 70's and 80s.... you know the times.... it was before cell phones, computers, the net... and rap music..... thank god...

we didn't have sex education, we did have biology and that dealt with reproduction, and the human sexual organs......

now today we want to teach about relationships and the sexual spectrum and yes that has a place, it can be helpful.... but.... most of sexuality is about learning by experience.....and that is what can NOT be taught in schools....

things like the pain of a broken heart, unrequited love, gender confusion, infatuations.... they are all aspects of who we are as part of the human race... but what we can not teach people is HOW to deal with those issues, how to lessen the pain and heart ache, how to tell who is LGBT and who is not.....

it is good to empower the kids with all the knowledge of the sexuality spectrum and set them loose on the world..... but no amount of human rights and equal rights or anti discrimination laws.... are going to prepare ANYBODY for emotional pain and trauma, failure and shattered dreams......

ironic, we have adults that can not handle the same issues, we are setting the kids up for.... and we have to remember that kids do not have many of the coping skills that the adults do..... and if the adults are not coping, how the hell do we expect the kids to cope.......

we have adults in this site... that are struggling with sexuality, dating, relationships and marriage, employment.....

and we have kids that are struggling with education, schooling, sexuality, dating, growing up, teen issues, relationships, self discovery, bullying and cyber bullying, employment, getting their licenses, planning to move out of home, drugs, drinking, peer pressure

there is always a better way of doing things in hindsight..... but maybe hindsight is better for seeing how things may have been better, but that was 30 years ago..... and many of the people that are making the decisions for the youth of today, are not youths any more.... and out of touch with how much hard it is nowadays......

like I said, i went to school in the dark ages....the 70's and 80's and even I am not that stupid to believe that I can make things better..... unless I shut one eye and only focus on one aspect of society....

we created the teen suicide issue .... lets own up to it......

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 5:48 AM

DuckiesDarling

Jan 28, 2011, 5:54 AM

I think if u read the article more carefully darlin' darlin'.. no one is talking using the entire spectrum of classes...

From the article

Is it “political correctness” and “McCarthyism” to try to ensure these kids can feel safe in their own schools – or is it basic decency? A few very mild proposals were made this week for how to change the attitudes behind this. They came from an excellent organization called Schools Out, which is run with a small grant from the tax-payer. They gave out a voluntary information pack in which they suggested that, to mark LGBT History Month, teachers acknowledge the existence of gay people in their lessons. They could teach in history about how Alan Turing played a vital role in saving the world from the Nazis and paved the way for the invention of the computer, only to be hounded to death for being gay. They could learn in science that homosexuality occurs in hundreds of species of animals. They could – yes! – maybe even look in maths lessons at the census data, figuring out how prevalent gay people are.

History, science and math so far, Fran. More than one class, well on the way to the whole curriculum. Of course this is one opinion by someone in an independent column and not likely to come about.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 28, 2011, 6:14 AM

What fucking shite u do talk Duckie... absolute bollocks...

really ??? so who is responsible, fran.... the teenagers themselves.... they just decided to off themselves one day cos of freedom of choice...????

maybe lance lundsten had the right idea... die from complications caused by a enlarged heart, to show the world that not all gay teens that are bullied and die, are suicide victims..... cos strangely enuf I am the only person that has mentioned him in the site....... and yes in the first few days he was labelled another gay teen suicide........

how tragic that we pick and choose the * victims* now.....

once again, its not me being right, fran.... its people like you, proving what I say....to be correct.....

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 7:09 AM

From the article

History, science and math so far, Fran. More than one class, well on the way to the whole curriculum. Of course this is one opinion by someone in an independent column and not likely to come about.

It was geography actually Darlin darlin'' an if u read the 1st para..and the first sentence of the 2cd para in particular.. u should have realised just what he was getting at.. he is not saying thats what he did or does.. he is saying that there are those who mislead and would like the world to believe that is what he did and does...

DuckiesDarling

Jan 28, 2011, 7:23 AM

I read the article in full and that led to my first post which you still haven't adequately answered as to why homosexuality should be taught in school at taxpayers expense.

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 7:36 AM

really ??? so who is responsible, fran.... the teenagers themselves.... they just decided to off themselves one day cos of freedom of choice...????

maybe lance lundsten had the right idea... die from complications caused by a enlarged heart, to show the world that not all gay teens that are bullied and die, are suicide victims..... cos strangely enuf I am the only person that has mentioned him in the site....... and yes in the first few days he was labelled another gay teen suicide........

how tragic that we pick and choose the * victims* now.....

once again, its not me being right, fran.... its people like you, proving what I say....to be correct.....

Im sorry, Duckie...I was in a hurry tween classes an the last sentence of ur post caught my eye and taken out of context which I only realised as I closed down the thread. But I had already I hurriedly posted the comment which I shouldn't have and thats why I deleted it.. forgive me my impetuosity.

I know that its not all gay teens who commit suicide.. however they are 6 times more likely to top themselves than non gay kids. Thats an important point and one we cannot ignore.. society I agree is at fault for many reasons for teen suicides.. and who is society? We are.. every single one of us.. no one can be excused..

..and to some degree, teenagers themselves are responsible (although immensely mitigated responsibility for obvious reasons).. it is they who for whatever reason kill themselves or who, through peer pressure, make the lives of other teens intolerable.. this happens not just in respect of gay and bi teens.. but to any kid who appears out of place for any reason.. geeks, wimps, blacks, even white's in some areas in particular down south in our major cities.. it is not unknown for kids to assume other kids are gay or bi, and they are anything but, and so mistreat those kids that they take such drastic actions simply to avoid school from self harm to the ultimate sacrifice. of life. there is mitigation there as they are young, immiture and have not yet fully understood the ways of the world.. children can be cruel as we all know, but often that cruelty comes from the family home or their surroundings, and again from their peer group..especially their mates.

I do not exempt myself from responsibility for teenage suicides or the misery of many teens.. the reasons in a sense are irrelevant why they kill themselves.. whether we have contributed directly to such a tragedy or by neglect and not doing enough all of us contribute.. whenever I see misery I do what I can, but whether it is enough or I have made a wrong assessment and taken a wrong decision is not always parent until too late.. I make mistakes like anyone else, and I have made mistakes when dealing with children.. both at school and at home and indeed in the outside world.. but when it comes to gay and bisexual children in particular, I have no doubt that as parents and citizens we need to do more both individually and collectively as a society. This does not mean we do not do more for other children.. it does mean we have an identified problem which we know about and can and should tackle with more determination and urgency than we do.

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 7:45 AM

I read the article in full and that led to my first post which you still haven't adequately answered as to why homosexuality should be taught in school at taxpayers expense.

Because living our lives is an education.. and preparing our children for life and to be decent human beings is what schools do.. or at least are supposed to... it is part of sex education and human relationships, compassion and understanding, tolerance, acceptance of difference and being a good citizen.. or shoudn't we teach these things in our schools?

It is not so much that we teach homosexuality.. it is that we teach our children to accept that homosexuality is no sin and no wrong.. that homosexuals are human beings too and have a right to live their lives in peace as much as any heterosexual.. I am not saying we teach the mechanics of homosexuality any more than we teach the mechanics of heterosexuality (although we do about heterosexuality, so there is an interesting litttle conundrum for you).. it is about fostering an understanding of what we all one day may be, and trying to help make our world the better for it.

DuckiesDarling

Jan 28, 2011, 7:50 AM

Because living our lives is an education.. and preparing our children for life and to be decent human beings is what schools do.. or at least are supposed to... it is part of sex education and human relationships, compassion and understanding, tolerance, acceptance of difference and being a good citizen.. or shoudn't we teach these things in our schools?

It is not so much that we teach homosexuality.. it is that we teach our children to accept that homosexuality is no sin and no wrong.. that homosexuals are human beings too and have a right to live their lives in peace as much as any heterosexual.. I am not saying we teach the mechanics of homosexuality any more than we teach the mechanics of heterosexuality (although we do about heterosexuality, so there is an interesting litttle conudrum for you)).. it is about fostering an understanding of what we all one day may be, and trying to help make our world the better for it.

But whose idea of compassion? Whose idea of equality? Whose idea of tolerance? Children are our future and they soak up knowledge faster than a dry sponge tossed in a well. I am questioning why the rhetoric has went so far when it's not about needing to teach kids about homosexuality, it's about stopping bullies for whatever reason. Any child can be bullied, for their weight, their looks, their clothes, their religion, their parents, their siblings, their intelligence and yes for their sexuality. But singling out the sexuality as a cause celebre is asking for more and more of the tolerant society to suddenly go.. "hey wait a minute. I pay my taxes so that my kid can have new books not so school can teach him what I don't want him to know yet."

tenni

Jan 28, 2011, 7:56 AM

The reality is that values and attitudes are taught in public school systems. They always have been taught and always will be taught. Public school systems are established to do much more than teach basic reading and math. They are there to prepare children to enter society and understand society values and attitudes. Now, the values and attitudes of thirty years ago are not the values of today though but the curriculum may only reflect the current trends. The curriculum constantly evolves and adapts to new knowledge and technology as well as societal values.

The most common vehicle that societies values and attitudes are taught is Literature or reading. There are almost always values interlaced into the stories. As the students mature, the issues about the society values become more opaque and complex. The students are capable of examining these issues and they therefore also develop their thinking skills at a higher level.(analysis, synthesis and evaluation being the highest levels of thinking)

It is also within other subjects that the values of the society or values that the society is encouraging are interlaced to reinforce the "new" values that are being encouraged. It is only when someone objects to the values and attitudes that they begin to complain. When the education system moves too quickly for a segment of the society. I'm not sure what the percentage of the society needs to be on board before these values and attitudes may be overlayed into other subject but they are. It happens all the time.

In times like we may be in now, the economics makes people less tolerant or other factors that make the pendulum swing back a bit. Bigotry is supported under arguments about "that is not the school system's job" etc. Well, it is the school system's job to reflect human values whether they are progressive or recessive.

The situation with Sex Education in my province and the reaction caused the government to pull the planned curriculum back. It will take more time and the regressive won to some extent. Just as in Britain, a more conservative trend is here as well. There are other forces manipulating and moulding children's attitudes outside of the education system. The parents and media are two factors. Parental attitudes may or may not be reflecting the societal values and the school system is there to buffer those influences whether the parental values are more progressive or regressive when compared to societal values.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 28, 2011, 8:07 AM

we all make mistakes....... shit happens.......

ok.... I posted about lance lundsten to prove a point, fran... listed as a gay teen suicide, when in fact he was a pre existing medical condition that killed him.....

the same way of doing things is used regularly in stats and agenda..... I am a smoker and if I die from a stroke, heart condition or cancer, they will all be attributed to me smoking..... regardless if they are caused by smoking or not....

the same with teen suicides.... and I have been there.... 3 of the teen suicide cases I was working with, were ruled as suicide due to sexuality issues.....
the truth was one was due to sexual abuse, another was due to mental health issues and the last was due to a pre existing medical disorder and depression....
they were listed as gay cos one girl was caught kissing another girl 3 years earlier.... one of the boys was wearing females underpants... and the other have been seen being hugged by another male ( it was his brother )

we are making victims out of people and twisting the facts around to fit the agenda.... and the constant homophobic / homo phobe bs is getting out of hand...... just cos a person is not accepting of lgbt... doesn't put them in the same class as the WBC....

but we are happy to put everybody in the same group.... in the same way we are putting the cause of many deaths, as a result of smoking..... and lance lundsten as a gay teen suicide.....

now you say that the suicide rate is 6 times higher..... so fran... I look forward to your stats that show that gay students / teens are dying at the rate of 6 to every one non lgbt person.....

not 6 times more likely, or 6 times higher.... but the actual suicide rate....
cos i already know that the way they work it out.... is to take a set number of teens, apply groupings and work it out from there......

its like I said with nz, we lost 18 teens commit suicide in one year... 2 were gay.... yet the death rate is 9 times higher for gay teens....
or in stat speak.... if we have 1000 non lgbt and 10 gay teens.... and 18 ( 16 hetero / 2 gay ).. then the suicide rate for gays is so high... yadda yadda yadda......

yeah... it looks good on paper cos people will jump on it and hold it up......cos 1-5 gay teens....etc

now if we add lance lundsten to the mix... one of the gay teen suicides is not a suicide at all... but death due to medical issues..... then we have 1 in 10....... and the heteros only had 1-62....

never mind the fact that 16 heteros and one gay commited suicide..... the importance is on the one gay student .... cos its a 1-10 death rate....

now fran, what are the suicide rates in the uk ????????

darkeyes

Jan 28, 2011, 8:19 AM

I pay my taxes so that my kid can have new books not so school can teach him what I don't want him to know yet."

Its a very American thing this tax issue.. we have it to a much less extent and most people actually dont begrudge taxes spent of a number of things.. education being one, health the other major issue. People in general believe education and health services are the two most important things the state has an obligation to provide.. so drop the tax issue. darlin' darlin.. there are those here who grudge tax but in the main we have a very different attitude to taxation and what the state should and should not do..

On the main point u raise in the above.. the fact is that its not so much schools teaching then things parents dont want them to know yet.. its the fact that schools teach them things they dont want them to know ever.. and thats worked out well hasnt it in the past? Tenni has a point in his contribution regarding the pervading values of society.. there are many things I dont llike about my society, but there are certain things which should be constant.. compassion, tolerance and understanding of difference being just three.. it should not matter whether it is my view or the man down the streets view of these things.. it is teaching our children and so for the future ensuring that differences between all human beings are respected by all concerned as best we are able.. by tolerating those difference and by trying to get us all to make the effort to understand the next persons way of life and her or his view of the world and somehow trying to get us all along and live in peace with one another.

tenni

Jan 28, 2011, 8:39 AM

darkeyes

Jan 29, 2011, 6:14 AM

If the person's own values are being threatened then they will not be open to attempting to understand the other perspective.

True tenni.. yet that is exactly what we have been doing for decades in the struggle for LGBT rights and what we will have to do both generally and on specific issues, such as gay marriage if we are to continue that progress...

void()

Jan 29, 2011, 6:37 AM

"I pay my taxes so that my kid can have new books not so school can teach him what I don't want him to know yet."

What if one of those books is one written as an exploration of nuclear physics, or even polynomial algorithms of biological sciences? I'm not quite sure you would want a child knowing of these direct off. But maybe schools are starting to teach it.

Heck, I read Jungian psychology when in primary school and impressed mom by evaluating one of her dreams. And you have to stop and think a moment. The school system is designed to create wage slaves, human capital used in industry. We're perfect sheep taught to stay in the box.

There is a whole cosmos out there beyond the box. We need to learn about farming on the bottom of the ocean, how to cure H.I.V, Cancer, create new forms of fuel for energy. We need to know how to converse in many languages while being one family and unified. There is no more us and them, just us.

Can you define normal? Can anyone?

And that right there is called exclusionary. You separate the family from the whole and then destroy it all. Stop making classes when there are none. It never helps and can only hurt. We don't need war, there's no more cattle or land left. Let us then unite and share our wealth, diversity. Let us open our eyes and hearts and join reason to love.

See, we're on the verge of evolving. We don't want to be cannibals but leave us no choice and there is sureness. Come along, now.

void()

Jan 29, 2011, 6:50 AM

And DD, I'm not attacking you, rather the idea of learning as it is now. Apologies if I seem a bit over the transom but it really is time to let go. We aren't children anymore. And I mean we as in humanity. Yes, we need to evolve and yes, I think this is all part and parcel of that evolution. Ideas are terrible beasts, some need killed to make way for better ones. But ideas are bulletproof, slippery buggers.

Simpler example:

Children often learn of sex in general now, from school or on the streets. Look at pregnant teen age mother plague to see the truth in that.

To wrap it up into a sound byte:

Children will learn what they will despite a parent's intentions or lack of. That's human nature.

DuckiesDarling

Jan 29, 2011, 7:02 AM

I didn't take it as an attack, Void and I hope you won't take what I say as rebuttal as an attack.

That same logic is why we now have to teach Creation as well as Evolution in some schools as part of SCIENCE? Creation has nothing to do with science and everything to do with Religion.

There is a difference between nuclear physics and what is being outlined here. No one has answered my point, why make toy soldiers out of children and not be there to back them up when things get rough. Everyone wants everyone to be equal as long as that equality comes with benefits for whatever group they push.

Why not put something in place that will actually slow down or stop the bullying that can lead to teen suicide rather than painting bullseyes on more children's heads?

void()

Jan 29, 2011, 8:07 AM

I understand your point well. As far as making toy soldiers and then bailing, it does seem a tragedy. Afraid I'd never warrant father of the year as I'd make real soldiers with full backup but that's another Grimm Brother's tale for darker times.

And actually, religion and science do converge upon alchemy. Science teaches trail and error in experimenting, a method it garnished from religion. Religion calls it rites, or dogma instead. Only real difference is the wording and words are lovely variables meaning whatever anyone wants.

See, I can write the word 'hello' and to me it means I greet you. Some Bozo over in say Cairo, Egypt can say the word 'hello' means I'm going to stone you for raping my twelve goats and looking at my creek.

And yes, it has happened many, many times. Hence I seldom speak out much. Folks read things in a funny way, and hence me clearing up my original post with another. But that's part of learning too. I get a laugh of people slinging the word erudite (http://www.onelook.com/?w=erudite&last=eurodite&loc=spell1) as an insult. It basically means someone is either learned, or willing and able to learn. But there you go.

So, yes. I concur with you about not pinning targets on children. Although I do think most children are able to surprise at times. Such is a wonder of life and we ought not trample wonders just because we ourselves were crushed. And I think that was my point. Bah, verbosity to simpleness, got to refrain from over thinking plates of beans. ;)

darkeyes

Jan 29, 2011, 10:02 AM

Why not put something in place that will actually slow down or stop the bullying that can lead to teen suicide rather than painting bullseyes on more children's heads?

We don't differ so much Darlin' darlin.. the erasing of bullseyes on our children's heads is just what a properly constituted programme of education is about in part.. to help create decent, well balanced and well educated kids who think and are able to go through life without either being a target or being the sniper.. thats why somewhere in the curriculum there should be lessons on sex and sexuality.. where that falls within the curriculum isnt important.. what is if we are to help our children be those well balanced and decent adults, is that it exists. School is not simply about the 3Rs, or learning the sciences, the arts or anything else.. it is an important part of giving children a good grounding in living. Schools have in this country a legal obligation to treat all our children equally and not discriminate on grounds of race, creed, sex or sexuality..

We teach much about race and creed and something of sex and heterosexual relationships (admittedly of mixed quality) to help our children understand. Yet so many schools teach little or nothing of sexuality even within sex, citizenship or moral education lessons to help children become more understanding of those who are not heterosexual and that it is not wrong to be gay or bi, that they are not evils or illegal, sins or perversions, and are not the same thing as paedophilia (which we can teach something about to help children be aware and safe) and are quite natural things to be.

void()

Jan 29, 2011, 12:38 PM

OMFGIH! Please say it ain't so. I'm not *sob* natural. Oh man and I thought being different made me like uber cool.

Sorry, had to snark. In a pissy mood today and feel able to take it a little with mates. Interesting, maybe I'm finally doing the relaxing thing after like twenty odd years or so of not. Watch out 2012!

Long Duck Dong

Jan 29, 2011, 8:06 PM

Diva667

Jan 29, 2011, 9:59 PM

Information = good, Ignorance = Bad

I knew how to make a zip gun at 10, didnt make one. But knew the basic theory of a zip gun and why they were a bad idea.

Same story with sex.

We need our kids to know what not to do. They are already armed and dangerous.

Whether that is straight , gay or bi. They need to be prepared for life outside the brick walls of the school. We keep treating them as if they are fragile, they aren't. Yes, some will be damaged and its good to minimize that damage. However, no matter what we do some will wind up scarred for life. Some will kill themselves and some will be bullied. Nothing we can do will stop it.

But, in general, information is a good thing and ignorance is a bad thing.

You don't send someone out with a gun, with out teaching them safety rules. Someone has to step up and take responsibility for it, if it isn't -and it hasn't, for the most part, been- the parents, then the school must.

darkeyes

Jan 30, 2011, 4:42 AM

maybe we need to teach .... but we can not change what is naturally there..... and homophobic / bi phobic / heterophobic behaviour is not always taught

we like to believe it is, so we can *fix * it..... but its the same as a pacifist and a soldier.... you can not teach who we are and what we are, cos a good part of it is naturally who we are..... its the attitudes and opinions we teach that become the visible part and they do not always work.....

you can not teach tolerance, compassion and acceptance without removing a persons ability and right to express their opinion.......

activists are vocal about their beliefs, their opinions and the way they want life changed to suit them cos they believe it works for others....cos they want tolerance, compassion and acceptance based around their beliefs....... but the trouble there, is that they will go after religion and other peoples beliefs and understandings ..... something that people hold personally.....

we love the terms " phobic and phobe " cos we can use them to label anybody that is not doing and saying what we want..... so we say phobic and phobe....then say, we want tolerance, compassion and acceptance

even in the first post, we see that there is not tolerance, compassion and acceptance of other peoples ways and beliefs, even tho we disagree with them......... and that proves one thing.... there can not be tolerance, compassion and acceptance as long as we have a agenda we are passing.....
bot the first thing we do, is tell other people their ways are wrong and incorrect, they need to change their ways.....

It is not me, Duckie, who goes out into the world and bashes young gay kids in the street and school playgrounds and makes their lives a misery because of who and what they are.. it is me and thousands like me who have to pick up the pieces because of what is a gross failure in our education system and in our society at large..

I have never denied that I am intolerant of intolance. We cannot force people to be tolerant, compassionate and accept others for what they are.. that comes from within. But we can through proper education at the very least clear up myth and untruths.. we do that about so many other things including sex and heterosexuality. Is it too much to ask that some time and resources are provided to help do so about homosexuality? Compassion and acceptance comes from being provided with information... without it, the LGBT movement would not made so much progress in our society in the last half century and we would still be in the sexuality dark ages. There is nothing wrong with having an agenda.. without one gays, bisexuals and transpeople having an agenda we would still be getting hunted down and battered in the streets, murdered almost with impunity, persecuted by the police and authorities and society as a whole, homosexual acts would still be illegal and this site for a start, would never see the light of day.

We are not making it compulsory to be gay, bisexual or anything else, and we are not encouraging kids to be gay bi or anything else, we merely wish there to be time provided in our education system for our kids at some appropriate stage in their schooling to be provided with information about all the sexualities, not simply one as is all too often currently the case.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 5:17 AM

ok.... I have been around students and I am sorry, but ..... they can remember being taught about sexual reproduction and basic biology and told that it is called heterosexuality...... strangely enuf.... cos its how people reproduce....its also how bisexuals, trans people, lesbians and gays also are created and if they so seek, reproduce..... maybe thats why its taught.....cos its part of human biology, not human sexuality

but now people want to make the school a place for teaching human interaction.... they want to push the human sexuality issue in schools and I am not sure if you have noticed, but even the bisexual community can not really agree on what bisexuality actually is..... but at what point does it stop.... or do you start teaching that bisexuals have needs and that its better to allow them to sleep around with other people while being your partner, that bisexuals are deserving of open marriages and poly marriages.... and that being monogamous, is hard for many bisexuals.....

they are aspects of some bisexuals......not all bisexuals..... so are you going to teach that bisexuals that are monogamous and not into open relationships, are following the heterosexual enforced rules....as part of bisexual opinion ???

seriously fran.. at what point do you stop teaching the issues around being LGBT... and please tell me how you are going to teach that lgbt is right, when you are infringing on religions and beliefs of other people, that teach that LGBT is not right and not acceptable behaviour......

its always easier to push a agenda and then side step the fall out.... than acknowledge that maybe the agenda is not going to benefit people as much as its gonna cause a shit storm.....

that is why in nz, we have the civil union bill for all... not just the lgbt.... cos we didn't push the lgbt agenda, we fought for everybodies rights....

look at all the minority groups that fought for rights and got them... and now play the racism, sexist, bigotry cards every chance they get....and learn from that.....before you bury more people

void()

Jan 30, 2011, 5:28 AM

darkeyes

Jan 30, 2011, 5:45 AM

And you make valid points on information being good. I'll now wander along thinking of new ways to use a coffee cup.

At school kids could do with some education about the proper use for a coffee cup.. :tong:

darkeyes

Jan 30, 2011, 6:36 AM

seriously fran.. at what point do you stop teaching the issues around being LGBT... and please tell me how you are going to teach that lgbt is right, when you are infringing on religions and beliefs of other people, that teach that LGBT is not right and not acceptable behaviour......

that is why in nz, we have the civil union bill for all... not just the lgbt.... cos we didn't push the lgbt agenda, we fought for everybodies rights....

We are talking about everybody's rights.. the right to a proper education about one aspect of sexuality.. the sad thing about education is that by its very definition it tramples over the rights of some people.. education is a very subjective thing in many areas. Even in my own subject, children do not have the educational right to mispell or use incorrect street grammar in their work except in certain defined circumstances without being penalised when grading. I do not have the right to pick on and victimise a child simply because I think he or she is a little shit. Swearing is forbidden on school property as is smoking. No one has the right to bring a weapon of any description on to school property, and in my school metal combs are forbidden. Mobile phones have to be switched off and never used in class. Kids have to ask permission from teachers or the school for many things, including a simple thing like nipping out to the loo... No alcohol is allowed, and kids are not allowed to snog or be too intimate while at school. Teachers cannot assault a child as a punishment as used to happen frequently when my father was a child. Parents do not have an automatic right to keep a child off school. Neither do parents have the right to deprive a child of an education. In history and geography and other subjects, kids are taught an authorised version of all subjects which is often found wanting and many object to this or that not being taught to their child, or the format of the subject in question. Education steps on the toes of churches and religions and contradicts them in many areas including sex education, moral education, the teaching of history, citizenship and science. Everything in life is full of contradiction... and much of what we do and say will upset somebody.. thats the nature of humanity.. things change and the society changes too.. in education that is reflected in the main as education evolves in response to those changes.. often it does it too slow and often inadequately, but it does do so. But we can never provide an education which will entirely meet the aspirations of everybody and so to some extent.. we trample on their rights, and their beliefs.. such is the difficulty of being a human institution. All we can do is provide the best education we can for all.

The teaching of children by schools something about homosexuality, something to be which is quite legal and morally decent and perfectly acceptable in our society, surely can be no bad thing? You may believe otherwise, that is your right and the right of anyone to take issue with.. far be it for me to trample on and infringe upon what you and others may believe and your right to say it and fight for it.. in achieving the state we are in now vis a vis gay rights, did we not infringe on the rights of those who opposed us? Had the LGBT movement not done so, you know just where we would be, because they would not have given us our rights out of the goodness of their hearts..

void()

Jan 30, 2011, 6:54 AM

At school kids could do with some education about the proper use for a coffee cup.. :tong:

Indeed. All these years I've been using a coffee cup as a planting pot for geraniums and that as a hat. Little did I know you put coffee in it to drink. It causes me much despair to ponder the liberalness of my teachers in those formative years. Perhaps, they merely sought to confer me as the jolly 'Green Man', or as the Droai call him Hearne of the Forest. Alas, it is now obvious why I sorely need Mery Wyn of the hawks to return.

Interesting note on family. Have recently discovered some of da's family was actually French, as in Normans that traversed to what was then England before it was England. Pre-Hastings era time frame luv, no wonder at all I'm so confounded, I speak with an atrocious accent. ;) Who knows, I may rightly be some prince or some such in disguise unbeknown to even myself. Scary thought that, me a bleeding noble one, ha!

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 6:55 AM

ok.... you can drop the us v's them crap for a start and stop trying to turn this into a * I am opposed to the teaching of sexuality in schools * issue...

I have no issues with sexuality being taught in schools, but I am realistic that you can not teach about sexuality without crossing lines and infringing on religious and other beliefs.....

the lgbt movement didn't infringe upon the rights of people to believe as they see fit.... its the legal system that infringes on the rights of people to act as they see fit, ie, gay bashing etc......

tell me fran.... what are you going to teach the kids.... and no side stepping like you do....

how are you going to teach kids about being bisexual and homosexual and when a kid says its wrong and disgusting and its against the christian way... what are you going to say..... ???

who is right, fran... cos they can not both be right.... and the moment you say their beliefs are right for them, than you are justifying their right to be against homosexuals and homosexuality.... while you will label them as homophobic and homophobes.....

this is the issue with pushing a one sided agenda..... and so many times we have see the results of one sided agendas gone bad...... IE the greenies against the tasers in nz... that resulted in cops being killed.... or the greenies against open cast mining... that resulted in 29 miners killed... or the greenies against windfarms, that have resulted in a 300% increase in the cost of power in NZ... or the greenies pushing for a youth wage equal to the adult wage and suddenly 20% of youth are unemployed cos employers said that they will pay adult wages to experienced people, not untrained youth......

the list goes on...

tenni

Jan 30, 2011, 8:00 AM

It seems to me that some posters without an understanding of education curriculuum and how it is developed are getting mumbo jumbo mixed into this aspect about sexuality and children. Facts are taught. It starts with basic human anatomy in the early years. Boy= penis and testicles. Girl=vagina and breast. It advances to reproductive aspects. Boy=erection & sperm Girl=menstration cylce and impregnation by grade 4 or 5 in progressive societies (of which few exist). It is from there that the basics of sexuality would be introduced and this is the basic sparky area. It would not be as convuluted as one or two posters are inclined to make it. It might start with some people are attracted to the opposite sex and others are attracted to the same sex. Language would be developed over a number of years and words like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual would be introduced (to be honest though I wouldn't be surprised if bisexuality was not introduced as most societies have not really accepted bisexuality sufficient to see it as a fact). Whether words such as pansexual would be introduced is up in the air imo but I doubt that it would be introduced in a public school system anywhere in the western world. If society's sociologists, psychologists have not come to an agreement then it would be probably not introduced. It may be a chicken or egg as to what comes first. Does society evolve or does the education system help society evolve? I suspect that it is a mixture.

Depending on the country and the education system more complex questions and issues about gender would be introduced but I would suspect that few would be taking high school health courses where this would be taught. I'm not aware of too many societies that would venture into questions that the society has not yet resolved and so the question(s) about same sex marriage would not be introduced into a society's education system that has not constitutionalized or created laws on equality based upon sexuality. However, as I think darkeyes has posted equality issues that are within the constitution or laws would be discussed perhaps in courses on law, civics, Man and Society etc.

Some posters are wandering into the fringe lunatic area and are under some belief that a religion and morality perspective would be dealt with. I doubt it. There is no real point in spinning wheels about what if's and all kinds of parameters if you don't really know wtf your are posting about! Only facts would be dealt with within a public school system. Values and attitudes would only be dealt with if the society has legalized or made them a more maistream aspect of that society. If sufficient numbers within the society are not comfortable with a fact being taught at a specific age then it will be withdrawn as happened within my province's "health" section that dealt with sexuality from jk to grade 12.

Presently, in my province the issue of Gay Straight Alliances clubs in high schools have come up within a Catholic (publicly funded) education system. The provincial ministry of education has created policies about how discussions about equality and sexuality are to be dealt with. This is government mandated and the Catholic system must adhere to it even though their religious belief does not. The uproar that followed the one school system who rejected permitting Gay Straight Alliance clubs forced them to back down with their policy and re examine it. That was a good thing btw and they will probably adhere to government education policy on how such school discussion for sexual equality are to be dealt with. There is even an openly gay board trustee on this Catholic school board who was just elected which is interesting. He was elected and so the voters indicated their tolerance and ability to separate church from state. The Catholic voters separated the education from the morality of their church teachings.

The fringe lunatic group who argue about a "gay agenda" are just that lunatic. Society must deal with it before the education system will touch it. If there are constitutional rights or legal rights then the school system will teach it because that is fact and not morality.

void()

Jan 30, 2011, 8:42 AM

"Facts are taught."

"Language would be developed over a number of years and words like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual would be introduced (to be honest though I wouldn't be surprised if bisexuality was not introduced as most societies have not really accepted bisexuality sufficient to see it as a fact). Whether words such as pansexual would be introduced is up in the air imo but I doubt that it would be introduced in a public school system anywhere in the western world. If society's sociologists, psychologists have not come to an agreement then it would be probably not introduced. It may be a chicken or egg as to what comes first. Does society evolve or does the education system help society evolve? I suspect that it is a mixture. "

Tenni, allow me to elucidate with frankness and seriousness a bit. And you are correct, we utterly do need to remove religion from it.

To your first point about facts being taught. Yes they are. But here is an anecdote for you.

I had known this lady for about three years. She was a grade school teacher. In discussion she confessed teachers destroyed wonder and innocence of children.

Compare this with another teacher I was fortunate to have.

He taught world history with his own grading scale. He thought the curriculum made his students dumber. It did not teach them critical thinking. He offered guidelines to critical thinking. As a result I met a challenge head on. He proposed there was a link to Nazism and Judaism, in which Judaism more or less spawned Nazism. I explored this for twenty five pages at a college senior level, in high school. He had a valid point but others did as well, yet I was graded to find an objective truth.

Little did I know this teacher's father had been in a camp. Nor did I know as a result this teacher had adopted Atheism.

My point is that while facts are taught, there is no congruency, no means of establishing facts as tools for critical thought. Education now simply bashes away wonder, curiosity and supplies a mass market factory worker. I've lived it, seen it time and again.

And now here we are on a brink. We must explore alternatives for continued survival. But those left uneducated are also strewn out as chaff. Even I feel antiquated and obsolete. I only do manual labor requiring no real thought. In it's own that can be good and need exists for it. But there is in fact so much more I could be doing. And now I understand that military service is not the only choice.

Yet many of the choices I would attempt are doors slammed in my face. Education is costly, requiring one to yet again become a slave to pay it off. And it is to strip me of wonder you charge a fee? It is to deny me the ability to think beyond the current status you seek payment for? That seems a bit ignorant and not progressive at all to me.

"Society must deal with it before the education system will touch it. If there are constitutional rights or legal rights then the school system will teach it because that is fact and not morality. "

But this is a flawed argument upon your part. I will explain why. You state education helps develop society. If education does not educate about these sexuality issues, then how does society 'deal' with them? It has to start at some point, you see? And if you expect our current society to just up and agree to sexual equality, then you may be interested in Utopia by Sir Thomas Moore. And I'm left to ask you then, whom is lunatic for believing in hope?

If we imagine it, then it comes to be. But in between we need to walk the stairs leading to the summit. It all begins with that first step.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 8:42 AM

Some posters are wandering into the fringe lunatic area and are under some belief that a religion and morality perspective would be dealt with. I doubt it.

Presently, in my province the issue of Gay Straight Alliances clubs in high schools have come up within a Catholic (publicly funded) education system. The provincial ministry of education has created policies about how discussions about equality and sexuality are to be dealt with. This is government mandated and the Catholic system must adhere to it even though their religious belief does not. The uproar that followed the one school system who rejected permitting Gay Straight Alliance clubs forced them to back down with their policy and re examine it. That was a good thing btw and they will probably adhere to government education policy on how such school discussion for sexual equality are to be dealt with. There is even an openly gay board trustee on this Catholic school board who was just elected which is interesting. He was elected and so the voters indicated their tolerance and ability to separate church from state. The Catholic voters separated the education from the morality of their church teachings.

The fringe lunatic group who argue about a "gay agenda" are just that lunatic. Society must deal with it before the education system will touch it. If there are constitutional rights or legal rights then the school system will teach it because that is fact and not morality.

tenni, you just made a total fool of yourself in your own post.... calling people fringe lunatics and talking about how they are under some belief that a religious and moral issue will come into play and how you doubt it will happen..... then you go on to talk about it happening in a religious school.....

void()

Jan 30, 2011, 8:53 AM

tenni

Jan 30, 2011, 9:50 AM

Yes and his argumentative style is circular and self negating. This truly saddens me as I did have higher opinion of his intellect. Suppose it goes to show how one needs to better pay attention to such as mates.

Apologies, I can in fact be serious and not 'the clown'. And I do have opinions which I feel valid and reasonable. And apparently I can expound on them by speaking with a degree of articulation.

Well, the public education system in my province funds both a public school and a Catholic school. The public school system was in reality a protestant school system. This was done historically to keep the Irish Catholics out of the mainstream for more than a hundred years. The Catholic system was under funded. When the population reached a point about thirty or so years ago that the majority was about to be more Catholics than the "British" Protestants, the government of the day declared that the funding would become equal. After over a hundred years equality came into effect. The funding at that time was a mix of municipal and provincial funding. The federal government also made some contribution to the provinces for education but education is a provincial responsibility. Although there are still municipal school boards and they are in part funded by municipal taxes the province controls how much municipal tax will be collected. Each school board writes their own curriculum but must adhere to the provincial curriculum guidelines. (I know it may seem confusing but the school boards have some ability to interpret how the curriculum will be taught to deal with local culture etc.) The school boards must adhere to provincial guidelines but have some control over how the funds are used to educate the children. Arguments are being made about wanting only one publicly funded school system but the issue is more complex than I'm even able to post here. Add to that a continuing increasingly more ethnically and religious mix within the society and they begin to demand equal funding as well without factoring in the historical issues. Islamic, Jewish, Hindu etc. schools exist but are private. Add to those are many educational diverse private schools without funding and it gets even more complex. They receive no funding but must adhere to some of the provincial guidelines and inspections.

So, my points may appear like a circular logic to the uninformed and for some I may appear to be a fool but what I posted is the truth (as I understand it of course..lol) Sorry if my society is more complex and difficult to understand but we are dealing with sexuality and children as best as the society permits. Like the lunatic fringe who argue that there is a "gay agenda" and gay thinking is being forced down children's throats, we are coping with the more conservative forces that promote this type of inequality.

I do have a professional understanding and experience of working within my society's education system but I am no longer involved in it. My understanding is not as good as it once was. When posters write what I consider ignorant, pompous statements that do not stand up to my years of experience, I will call them on it.

tenni

Jan 30, 2011, 10:32 AM

"You state education helps develop society. If education does not educate about these sexuality issues, then how does society 'deal' with them? It has to start at some point, you see? And if you expect our current society to just up and agree to sexual equality, then you may be interested in Utopia by Sir Thomas Moore. And I'm left to ask you then, whom is lunatic for believing in hope? "

Yes, void this is the difficulty of the matter. Education systems do educate children but may only go as far as the societal values permit. Society as a whole must grapple with the issues whether they are sexual or moral. The education system may help expand tolerance of differences only if there is a tone and support for such discussions. Parents do not generally really understand the complexities of what and how to teach children. They have their job in society to deal with. Those "fringe" parents who attempt to remove certain books from a curriculum because it doesn't align with their beliefs ie Harry Potter is about evil and witchcraft remove it...arguments gain strength and support in certain geographical areas if the majority are inclined to also be "fringe" and well unsophisticated.(my opinion shoot me down). Where it gets touchy is when curriculum guidelines are created for a larger geographical area (province/state) and the local area has this "fringe" mentality. The local school board is in trouble and needs experts to get them through it. The reference that I gave about Gay and Straight Alliance clubs is interesting in that it was the board trustees who quickly rejected the policy at the end of a board term without discussion. The new board had it dropped in their laps. The public had not been consulted (probably) and the province guidelines were more "liberal" in demanding sexual equality have an avenue for discussion and support. The public fell on the more liberal interpretation compared to the school board & church view. The church backed way off and made a statement that was not its responsibility...after the public tone began to show. The former school board trustees were out of touch and probably not aware what the provincial guideline was. I have no idea how that mess came to be but some ultra conservative element was probably behind it. Now, this happened in the publicly funded Catholic school board and the other public school board seemed not to have made such a decision therefore keeping out of controversy.

If the majority of the provincial attitude was against having this avenue for sexual equality discussions, then I would have expected the provincial government to have backed down as it did earlier with health sex ed as to what should be taught at certain ages.

void()

Jan 30, 2011, 11:41 AM

"Yes, void this is the difficulty of the matter. Education systems do educate children but may only go as far as the societal values permit. Society as a whole must grapple with the issues whether they are sexual or moral. The education system may help expand tolerance of differences only if there is a tone and support for such discussions. Parents do not generally really understand the complexities of what and how to teach children. "

And here is where you break down, tenni. The parents do not know because they were left uneducated. I know ultimately it returns to this crux. Because you can then argue it was group x to keep group y in check and so on in the beginning. This creates a paradox of fact and a circular argument of chicken or egg.

Does it really matter?

No. Let us start today fresh with the knowledge we have now. Let us apply ourselves and eradicate ignorance, in the now. This will establish a better future. And this is my point, understand that our past has errors, learn from them but do continue and progress. No one is worried about which was first, that is a lost fact. Fine, move forward, adapt, evolve.

Quit stalling us out with running circles. Yes, society as a whole needs to address the issues. Meanwhile, would it not better serve us all to be educated for such in the future? But, it needs to start somewhere. You can not simply keep it out of school by deferring it to some argument of eggs and chickens. That's akin to logic which may have gotten Isaac Newton burned as a witch for discovering gravity.

I understand your point and do not dismiss it, rather do suggest ... oh boggle ... a means around it, courage. Sorry, needed to think upon the wording. Damn variable words at any given. But yet I went onward. So too society I believe, if we but let it. And do be a sweet, keep your fringes. I've no need of them, lunatic enough as it is, hon. :bigrin:

I think we are in effect saying the same but in different ways. Notice that folks do that more so now. The world keeps growing smaller.

elian

Jan 30, 2011, 1:41 PM

Proper ideas about sex, love and morality should be taught at home and at institutions of faith - here is model for how to do it right:

Both the Unitarians and the United Church of Christ use this curriculum.

http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/ourwhole (http://www.uua.org/religiouseducation/curricula/ourwhole/)

Unfortunately I can guess that what gets taught at either home or church most of the time falls short of frank, honest truthful age appropriate discussion. Therefore I will advocate for teaching at least the basics of such things at school since we want people in our society to have at least a minimum of understanding and confidence about self worth and "biology".

At least here in the states it seems that we are just now starting to understand the value of teaching self-worth and respect for others to children in public education (I guess parents used to do this, and lots probably still do. Children spend more time at school then they do at home and social learning is going on at school just as much a "book" learning). I should say this is very complex issue and I certainly don't claim to have the "final" answer.

Let's not forget that up until as late as the 60's a lot of women did not have the power to choose what they wanted to do with their lives.

This is also an interesting video, about the importance of letting children fail:

http://www.ted.com/talks/diana_laufenberg_3_ways_to_teach.html

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 7:05 PM

the fact that teens know more about sexuality and dealing with their sexuality than most adults is something that most people are missing.......

we are looking at things from the way we grew up, what we understood......

there are 4 year olds that can build their own computers and there are adults that can not even defrag their computer.......

with the internet and google the teens have a range of knowledge and understanding that is far superior to what can be taught in schools and we have 11-12 year olds that are sexually active......
we say that they lack the understanding of being sexually active..... well they must know something.....

so we look for something to blame and say that the teens need better education, and we ignore the fact that we have given them the right to express themselves

sure there is a fringe lunatic gay agenda..... and yes... its the idea that if we teach the kids about sexuality, they will stop bullying each other cos of sexuality
but the simple fact is if that type of thinking worked... bullying would have disappeared long ago.... on all levels........

while people like tenni can argue that people like me are fringe lunatics....

they can not argue that NZ doesn't push lgbt groups in schools, most of our teen suicides are not cos of bullying, but a inability to cope, we lack lgbt bullying, most bullying is gang related and done by females...and that most of the male aggression is against the teachers.......

and that the bulk of bullying in todays culture is online and cyber bullying.... and its a known fact that people can act like assholes online using anonymous names, while being nice people offline face to face......

tenni, let me draw your attention back to lance lundsten, the gay student that committed suicide by having a edema caused by a enlarged heart......
now the LGBT activists waved his name around for a couple of days as another victim..... until the truth came out.... a edema caused by a enlarged heart is a pre existing medical condition..... suddenly hes pushed to one side and ignored....

suddenly hes just another LGBT person that died, not worthy of attention, not worthy of mention...... cos he is not able to be used as a object for attention and a agenda ......... the LGBT agenda.......

but what would I know.... I am a person that is not pushing a agenda.... I am merely pointing out the holes in it based around actual fact and a place where what I talk about, is actually working...... and the best proof of that, is the students themselves......

Diva667

Jan 30, 2011, 7:39 PM

Bullying is the responsibility of the parents and the teachers. Too many parents abdicate their positions.

Too many parents aren't equipped to be parents. It isn't like there are classes you can take.

LDD, you assume that children are equipped to read and understand things. Mostly what they get is information from porn sites. Is it accurate? I doubt it. Its just like in our day when we had what you could learn off the street and what was learned from reputable sources. The stuff off the street from friends was questionable, at best.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 8:08 PM

yeah I know what you are talking about.... when I was growing up back in the 70's and 80's and surfing the net ( which I never had ) on the computer ( which I never had ) and not being able to read and understand ( when books were a main source of info in schools, and we had to be able to read ).. I was getting info from unreputable sources, such as experimenting with other kids... and things like looking at them in the changing sheds......

now things have changed.... kids can not read or understand things, while they are able to use the net and computers to surf porn and gleam info from them and other sites... which are not reputable sites and know more about sexuality and sex than most adults do..... all while they are playing computer games and other forms of electronic entertainment before helping their parents to create a facebook profile cos the parents lack the understanding of computer usage......

and yeah... bullying is the responsibility of the parents that are not allowed to discipline their kids ( its illegal in nz to smack your kids ) and its the parents fault that the kids and using their fists and fingers against other people including their own parents..... cos the kids are taught in schools that they have rights, the parents may not discipline them and that forms of disclipline such as time out, are not allowed to be enforced as its a form of child abuse and neglect.... the same with climbing apparatus, cross country running, tag and other games.......

now I was bisexual and sexually active and playing safe, without any info from school or the internet.....and many of the adults in this site, were the same way......

so yeah.... smiles.... the kids of today, has access to far greater resources, info and knowledge than we had..... and many more rights as well.......

I give credit to the kids of today, they are already far wiser than some of the adults in the site.....

Diva667

Jan 30, 2011, 9:07 PM

"Smacking your kid" isn't , nor should it be, the primary form of discipline. Hitting never resolved an issue. Corporal punishment was used as an excuse to abuse and beat the crap out of kids, in the recent past, is that really what you are advocating?

You should know that knowledge does not equal wisdom, nor does it equal responsibility.

Yes, kids have access to much more information about sex, than we ever did. But why should they have to recreate the wheel? Maybe some of the lessons we have learned could be passed down? And maybe , just maybe, not all of the information on the internet can be trusted to be accurate.

Do you really want your kid learning sex ed from the internet?

Long Duck Dong

Jan 30, 2011, 11:15 PM

smacking your kids has its place........ or would you perfer that you tell your kids off until they finally go behind your back and stick a fork in a power point and get electrocuted.....

I do not advocate smacking your children as the only form of discipline, but in some cases, its better than the alternative......

the child in question suffered burns and needed skin grafts.... and will suffer from nerve damage for the rest of their lives.... a smack on the hand, MAY have prevented that

in nz, we have removed corporal punishment... its one of the first things taught to kids at school now.... the kids rights and how a parent is NOT allowed to discipline them.... the other part of the law never got thru thank god, and that part of the law, made parents legally responsible for the kids... or in simple terms, if your kid committed a crime, the parents went to jail for it.......

maybe not all of the info on the internet is correct, but nor is a lot of the info taught in schools or by parents....... but there is a lot of info on the net that kids can read and learn from in private, as many kids are too embarassed to ask the questions they need to know, when they need to know..... and a lot of parents will not tell them the answers, they need to hear.....

would I like my children learning from the internet.... well... it depends... yes, if there was answers there, I did not have..... but I am realistic in that the net, schools and parents can not teach a lot about sexuality.... as its unique to each person and while we can touch the surface, there is much that can only be learnt by personal experimenting and experiencing.....

it is the reason that with all the knowledge we have available, people still are sexuality and gender curious, and need help with the feeling and emotions inside of themselves......

much of the lessons we can share, are shaped by personal experience and experimentation... and learnt in a far different society.... much of what I learnt growing up, is different to what a lot of kids face today.... and I respect that fact... so I listen to what the kids say so I can learn from them as much as they learn from me......

while knowledge may not equal wisdom, a wise man knows that without knowledge and understanding of what works and what doesn't, there will not be wisdom and guidance.......

people can argue as much as they want about how I am wrong and they are right....... and so be it.... but I can point, time and time again to where things have gone wrong and badly wrong..... many people can't point out where their ways work....

btw, we removed corporal punishment in schools and homes, we now have a alarming increase in the levels of child abuse resulting in death and the 3rd highest child abuse fiqures in the modern world ( 4.2 mill people in NZ )......
we have teens that have been arrested and charged with attempted murder of a police officer ( they are aged 12 and 14 )..... they attacked him with a machete.....

now where are the greenies that told NZ that their anti smacking way worked best....??? nowhere.... they are not standing up to answer for the fact that things are going so badly wrong... they are not standing up to face their critics now...... and they are definitely not standing up and admitting their way didn't work.......

Long Duck Dong

Jan 31, 2011, 1:09 AM

ok I have finished researching a school mentioned in the article in the first post

full article used in this thread (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2010/oct/26/gay-history-lessons-bullying-schools)

stoke newington secondary..... they started a a teaching and lesson plan after a music teacher overheard a student say their pen was so gay after it broke on them in the middle of a lesson....

gay you say.... omg how homophobic...... but wait......

A poll of 1,145 pupils in 2007 by the charity Stonewall found 65% of lesbian, gay and bisexual students had experienced homophobic bullying. Some 98% said the word "gay" was used as a synonym for "rubbish".

so here we have a issue with homophobic bullying,.. but the word *gay * is not being used in a homophobic context.....

maybe english teachers could teach alternative meanings of the word faggot cos its clear that music teachers are mistaking the word gay as a homosexual reference when the student was using it in another context.......
and before anybody argues the usage of the word gay, it used to mean happiness and joyous...... now students and youth are applying a new meaning to a word, .... maybe the LGBT need to realise that a issue may exist with their own inability to realise that times have changed and so has the meanings of words, to the youth.....

I digress

A north London school which has developed lessons on gay historical figures who suffered persecution claims to have succeeded in "more or less eliminating homophobic bullying" in its classrooms and playgrounds over the last five years.

interesting,... they never promoted lgbt tolerance, they showed that LGBT people are people too...... so much for the teaching sexuality tolerance to combat bullying........

its the same school........ and in my eyes, the teacher may have been wrong with her misunterstanding... but the way they are combating sexuality bullying, is brillant.....

you are showing people that LGBT people are not just people that are sexually driven perverts, but that they are a respected and valued part of society by way of their contribution to society....... not cos of their sexuality...... the sexuality is a aspect of who we are, its not the sum of what we are.... and this is something I have posted about a number of times in the site.......

if you stop presenting the value of lgbt people, as valuable cos they are lgbt, but their contribution to society... then you are showing the LGBT that they too can be somebody, they too are not just LGBT, they can be fucking presidents in the future.....and this shows people that the lgbt are the same as the rest of the human race.....

the same principal we used in NZ with the civil union bill, we pushed for everybody equally, not the LGBT only.........

the school is presenting LGBT peoples accomplishments in the same way that they present the accomplishments of hetero people.....

lastly, I leave you with the following

Earlier this month, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission published a report, How Fair is Britain?, which found two-thirds of lesbian, gay and transgender students had suffered homophobic bullying, and 17% had received death threats.

Nearly half of secondary school teachers in England believe homophobic bullying is common. Only one in six believes their school is active in promoting the rights of gay pupils, the commission found.

"Many schools haven't even begun to deal with homophobia," Barnes said. "Some still think being gay is illegal in parts of the country."

She believes one problem is that teachers dread taking lessons on homosexuality. "Many are scared of celebrating LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender] as they are worried pupils will judge them and will assume they are gay. In fact, to them, we are just a blob giving them information. Over the five years, I've only had three pupils ask whether I am gay."

now fran...... one school has shown how it can be done....one school....... but it looks like the teachers need to return to school if they have no bloody idea about their own countries laws.... or if they are too scared of what other people may think, if they teach about LGBT....

one school has used a way that works..... take that to your school and pass that, if its working......and it looks like it is, 5 years worth of work is plenty of time to prove it works........ so fran, tried and tested method in schools.....

Falke

Jan 31, 2011, 2:15 AM

"there are many things I dont llike about my society, but there are certain things which should be constant.. compassion, tolerance and understanding of difference being just three.."

darkeyes
I agree with you but I suspect that the problem comes into play when it is being decided what is "compassion, tolerance and understanding of differences". Arguments are made that point A is not being tolerant but as is argued here giving into the "gay agenda" etc. No one wants to admit that they are not tolerant but will argue that it is not tolerance but an "agenda" etc. "Understanding differences" is one aspect that is probably extremely difficult to even accept if your value and view is in conflict with another value or viewpoint. It is extremely difficult to get that across. If the person's own values are being threatened then they will not be open to attempting to understand the other perspective.

Pretty much, I just had that lesson again last week.

I while Fran's way is the best and I agree with her, until everyone get's over themselves it's just not going to happen.

As far as sex ed goes... I had an excellent and fairly comprehensive sex ed class in 9th grade (14). By the time I was there none of it was a real mystery, but some of the ways to keep safe were introduced, so it was quite helpful and I am for it. As far as teaching about sexual orientation, they can figure that out themselves. All that really needs to be taught is people like different things and there is no excuse for treating them differently over it.

darkeyes

Jan 31, 2011, 3:59 AM

This isnt a definitive reply Duckie.. I wont have time today for such are the problems of a working life in education..

..just let me say Stoke Newington is in England and as such is a part of a separate system in a separate country with separate laws on both education and homosexuality. The education system is also different.. there are similarities, but how and what we teach on the curriculum is different. The alternative meaning of the word "gay" I am aware of.. it is used by kids throughout the UK.. whether it is a welcome development or not, for whether it can be entirely divorced from the gay issue is something which some argue is debatable to say the least.. this new meanings roots lie in contempt for gays among the straight community and it is disengenuous to entirely separate it from homophobia..

Some schoools have made progress in combating homosexual bullying and prejudice.. but such is the way in both Scotland and the rest of the UK sex and relationships is taught in schools, wherever appropriate this progress is limited.. it is a mish mash of little or nothing in the main.

Much is taught about ethnic minorities in history and in other pertinent subjects in our schools and so it should be.. few argue with it.. what is so different about homosexuality. Cos the churches and others dont like it? Not good enough.. the churches and others dont like a lot of things but they are taught in our schools.. The question isnt whether homosexuality is taught but how, at what stages in a child's education and within which parts of the curriculum.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 31, 2011, 4:20 AM

well....all I can say... is I have now posted two working ways, one in the uk... and apparently a number of schools and teachers have signed up to teach the new way in schools cos its seen to be working.....and in nz,.... and how we have near zero sexuality based bullying in schools and how we did it.......

there is proof of how it can work... as teaching sexuality gains opposition, but teaching about people in society that are LGBT, is a dammed site harder to oppose........

in both cases, they have involved students and teachers ....not politicians, experts and specialists..... and there have been no LGBT agenda.... just the desire to teach people in schools....

its the key to it as I have posted many times..... our sexuality is a aspect of who we are, not the sum of who we are..... cos if it was the sum of who we are.......
oscar wilde is famous cos he was considered gay / bi ( depending on the researcher ).... oh... and he was a writer.....

angelina jolie is that famous bisexual female.... oh and she was in a few movies.....

alexander the great is that bisexual guy.... and yeah.... he had a army or something and kicked ass......

give the kids a connection.... something to be proud of..... something other kids can look at and say.... holy shit... alexander kicked butt, fucked butts and was one bad ass mofo

angelina... damm dude, the lara croft movies were smoking hot... and I better she nailed a couple of supporting actresses too.....

oscar wilde.... yeah we read his books in school... awesome story, that dude could write.....

thank god stoke newington secondary... worked it out........ they give the kids something to relate to.... not just a sexuality and a twisted image of who we are

tenni

Jan 31, 2011, 10:40 AM

Void
Re: your post #41

tenni wrote "Parents do not generally really understand the complexities of what and how to teach children. "

void wrote "And here is where you break down, tenni. The parents do not know because they were left uneducated."

Void I'm not sure that the two statements are compatible. How to teach children about anything is beyond standing in front of them and stating a "fact". The parents do know but what is that they know and more importantly what do they believe (value)? It is beyond facts. It is attitudes and values that they have developed and they pass them on to their children. It is beyond knowing the fact that person X is famous for doing or discovering something and that they are gay or bisexual. What value is placed on bisexuality? Is it a positive value or a negative value?

Referring to something as "gay" (and not acceptable) comes from some place in a child's mind. How did it get there? Associating being of a certain race/sexuality and placing that race/sexuality as less valued than another race/sexuality is built up over years and people. It is not just stating that it is socially acceptable to state that one race or sexuality is less valued or even bad. Kids have been stating for decades that X behaviour is "so gay "or clothing item is "so gay" thereby placing a negative value on a sexuality. Very young children parrot older kids with this labelling even if they do not understand sexual acts. They are imprinted with the word being bad. The point that it is now so horrible to use the word "nigger", "coloured" that you may only politely refer to the "N" word is a sharp change in society over the past fifty years. It wasn't the school system that made this change but it may have helped. Major shifts in society happened to make using any reference to a word as socially taboo.

How do you alter that attitude in children? Merely some parent stating that it should be changed by informing them about famous bisexual/gay people will fix it..is well..just a bit too simplistic. The societal value that is referring to people as of less value because of their race or sexuality is just not acceptable and don't even think about saying that has to be built up over years. Yes, informing people that people of a certain race or sexuality have done great things is one tiny step to altering a societal value...but just that a tiny step. Stating that schools have the responsibility to "teach" kids better ideas is good but how do you do that unless the majority want that value ? Simply stating that it should be done while parents continue to reinforce that value X is socially acceptable counters what the school system can do. Isn't it the same type of person (bigot?) that once called people "N" lovers that now state that a "gay agenda" is being pushed down people's throats? What the majority of people in a society decide about whether or not there is a "gay agenda" or not will control what schools can do. If it is valued then parents/public will not argue that "gay" be discussed only in specific classes but accept that "gay bisexual be there incidentally in all subjects so that the societal imprinting in students change to perceiving all sexualities as equal. Then kids will come up with something else when they want to dis another kid's clothes etc...lol

Void, you can not start fresh today as life /society can not be made a blank slate.

void()

Jan 31, 2011, 5:14 PM

"How to teach children about anything is beyond standing in front of them and stating a "fact". The parents do know but what is that they know and more importantly what do they believe (value)? It is beyond facts. It is attitudes and values that they have developed and they pass them on to their children. It is beyond knowing the fact that person X is famous for doing or discovering something and that they are gay or bisexual. What value is placed on bisexuality? Is it a positive value or a negative value? "

I agree with you on this aspect of instruction. The best teaching is by example. And when parents of children now, taught years ago, and the generation before them were all given these ignorant values ... then you wind up with parents unable to teach. And this brings us back to your chicken and egg argument, sadly.

"Associating being of a certain race/sexuality and placing that race/sexuality as less valued than another race/sexuality is built up over years and people. It is not just stating that it is socially acceptable to state that one race or sexuality is less valued or even bad. Kids have been stating for decades that X behaviour is "so gay "or clothing item is "so gay" thereby placing a negative value on a sexuality. Very young children parrot older kids with this labelling even if they do not understand sexual acts. They are imprinted with the word being bad. The point that it is now so horrible to use the word "nigger", "coloured" that you may only politely refer to the "N" word is a sharp change in society over the past fifty years. It wasn't the school system that made this change but it may have helped. Major shifts in society happened to make using any reference to a word as socially taboo."

Exactly my point, it is taught by parents, whom were taught it by their parents and schooling on back. To change society you educate it, or control money, media, travel. To use the control you need education, so it looks as though education is a key to the kingdom.

"Void, you can not start fresh today as life /society can not be made a blank slate. "

Spoil sport! But ask yourself why it could not be? And if you can not find a really valid reason, let me know. Of course, I'm probably pulling out that lunatic Zen or Taoist thought of the infinitely blank Now. But why can we not start anew? If the system is broken beyond repair, why not get a new one?

Of course, I can provide an answer based on a little history. Socrates is cite, and Plato, Aristotle, Homer some the better of the Greek classic thinkers, say, all forms of governing were tried and all failed due to the benefits of each respective one being abused. But why not learn from teaching? Give us examples as leaders. That would probably be too simple.

And yes, you need to bring in government with education. It needs a whole effort. But then I'm just a speck of dust thinking my words hold value, when they probably don't. I'll close off now, said all I feel capable and don't wish degrading further.

Long Duck Dong

Jan 31, 2011, 11:45 PM

tenni, basic thinking sets the trend......

if you want change, you have to change...... things like your anti hetero stance, your opinion that straight woman should be quieter in the site and that the site is for bisexuals..... is a prime example of where negative social opinions can start.....

this is why I am supporting of things that are not aspects of my lifestyle, such as open marriages and relationships and why I am constantly pro everybody, not pro lgbt...... yet I get a lot of opposition in this site..... and that is interesting I am gaining opposition in a site that knows a lot about opposition and oppression

but the argument can be used that your opinion is your opinion... and you are not teaching kids to feel the same way.... and that is a key part to the kids... in a lot of cases kids form their own opinions exclusive of what they parents are teaching the kids......

if the argument is used that parental teaching forms the basis of kids thinking, then your anti hetero anti straights opinions are based around what your parents taught you..... and not based around your own personal prespective of society around you

it is common practise to find somebody to blame for society.... yet we are society..... we are responsible for our own voices and opinions, not society......

that is why we need to stop saying that kids are doing sexuality based bullying cos of their parents and realise that a lot of it is actually the kids themselves, their dislike of a person enhanced by a *weakness * or * reason * to justify the bullying...... in the same way you have been known to * bully * people like DD, rissababe, cat and other people.......

tenni

Feb 1, 2011, 1:08 AM

Long Duck Dong

Feb 1, 2011, 1:22 AM

my point was how simple opinions can become the basis for behievour that is bordering on anti social and negative....

my own mother is christian, anti LGBT, pro marriage and that cost her a marriage and she still refuses to accept or believe that her views contributed to it in any way

I grew up non christian, lgbt friendly and supportive, marriage was not something that interested me....

my sisters are like me, non christian, lgbt supportive and friendly, and view marriage as a personal choice......

so in my family alone..... there is a clear example of how the views and opinions of the parents are not reflected by the children......
yet the emphasis of the thread, is on how the views of the parents influence the kids.....

so my points are clear, based around a part of the thread....and based around actual events not assumed thinking

tenni

Feb 1, 2011, 1:39 AM

"so my points are clear, based around a part of the thread....and based around actual events not assumed thinking"

No sir, I do not find your writings nor your thinking clear. You are not the person to determine if your thoughts are clear. I have found the history of your posts often to be rather tangental and unfocused at times.

From my professional experience, parents generally influence their children in a very strong manner but they are not the only influences. To write otherwise is to be basing your view on exceptionalities within your own family structure. Parents, the media, literature, and other humans as well as the education system help mould a child's mind, values and attitudes. It is not one or other other but a combination. I base this on observation of children as a professional for many decades. Two children may be within the same environment and influenced by similar factors. They are more likely to have similar values/ attitudes but not exclusively as each person is also an influence in the other's environment plus other environmental influences.

Long Duck Dong

Feb 1, 2011, 4:18 AM

then based around your professional observations you would know and understand that teaching sexuality in schools is not going to work........

all the * it gets better * and law changes, is not going to work.... cos we created * my rights * and instead of creating a society where people have the rights to protection and education, health care etc...... we have created a society where people believe their rights make actions ok... and the actions of others wrong.....

its mirrored clearly in nz, where you can not remove a bully from school as they have the rights to a education... you may not expell them from one school unless they have the rights to go to another for their education...and that is what the victims are seeing... the rights of the bully far outweigh the rights of the victim...and the bullies know it.....

so the victims leave the school and move to another school, or leave school totally or leave life...... cos its the alternatives they have.... and the rights they have..... as staying in the school means that unless the bully is stopped, the bullying will not........

and thats what the kids are saying.... and the adults are ignoring......

DuckiesDarling

Feb 1, 2011, 8:03 AM

"if you want change, you have to change...... things like your anti hetero stance, your opinion that straight woman should be quieter in the site and that the site is for bisexuals..... is a prime example of where negative social opinions can start....."

LDD
To some extent, I agree that your platitude about if you want change you have to change(if you are not in alignment with the change that you wish...but I doubt many are in that position).

I tend not to address you directly. I told you more than two years ago that I would treat you that way and generally have ignored your insults and personal attacks. I'm not interested in your views. I won't take your bait to discuss points not connected to the thread. I'm not anti hetero. I'm anti DD & LDD prostilatizing on this site.

Gee Tenni, if you are gonna not rise to whatever bait and personal attacks and then turn and make a personal attack, don't you think it would be wise to use proper spelling? As for proselytizing, excuse me? I don't particularly care if you have to spend your winter cuddling your hand, but there are people here who come for help not your condemnation. You have made several remarks about heteros not belonging here, you have made remarks that the site should be renamed to "straight partners of bisexuals" then you go on in other threads and state that even the bisexuals here are hetero minded. Make up your mind, Tenni, are you or are you not part of the bisexual community. If you aren't, it's by your own choice.

And enough derailing of a thread, back the actual opinions regarding sexuality and children.

DuckiesDarling

Feb 1, 2011, 8:08 AM

darkeyes

Feb 1, 2011, 9:28 AM

As the mother of three children, I know firsthand how the information they pick up both from parents and from school is invaluable. But that does not change my opinions earlier posted in this thread.

Even Fran agrees with me, Tenni, that we should not paint bullseyes on a child's head. You can not tell a child it's fine to be gay, it's fine to come out, and then not be there when the slurs start to fly. Ironic isn't it, the suicide that was mentioned in this article was of a straight kid, it only matters that he was CALLED gay. :2cents:

What I said actually darlin' darlin was that we neither paint bullseyes nor do we encourage others to take aim at bullseyes, rather we try and bring about understanding and acceptance between them ... we are not going to ask any child if they are gay and out them and so paint that bullseye.. but we should be there for any that need our guidance and our help. Schoolkids should know that, and schools should make provision for it always on a confidential basis..

The intention of proper education about the issue is to foster a proper understanding of human relationships, and to better prepare children for the reality of the world and to be more compassionate, understanding and tolerant of difference.. yes, we should tell kids that its ok to be gay, or bisexual or trans for that matter, but schools should never say its ok to come out without preparing them for the dangers of that coming out, but also inform them that coming out isnt compulsory!!! Also education should be there to attempt to remove the stigma attached to homosexuality or bisexuality many of our children endure, and tell them that what they are is nothing about which to feel ashamed.. as we guide and inform heterosexual children on the issue of their sexuality we should be free to guide and inform those who are not heterosexual in a similar manner. Such is what equality of opportunity within the education system is about.

The intention behind sex education is to facilitate a better understanding in children of the issues in preparation for life.. regarding sexual orientation it is little different.. it is to facilitate their entry into the wider world prepared for it as best we can so they can cope with it.. and to educate those who are not gay, that it is ok for their friends, relations, classmates and neighbours to be.. that that does not make them any more monsters, perverts and paedophiles than they are likely to be themselves, that being homosexual, bisexual or transgender is a perfectly decent and natural thing to be and that people who are these things are like those in the straight world.. as decent and compassionate, as good and as bad, as bright and as stupid as are those in the world of heterosexuality. To provide our children with the information and proper guidance and allow them to make up their own minds.. one aim of education in genral is to make the best educated child we can and help that child make the best of her or himself throughout life.. we fail in our obligation to children if we do not properly give them the ammunition to deal adequately with her or his sexuality.

Just as in history there are those who will never accept the holocaust as ever having occured, or in religion or science that the earth is not flat or that we descended from the apes and farther back the primordial slime, there are those who will never accept those who are not heterosexual, just as there are those who cannot accept bisexuality, or the transgendered and indeed those who loathe straight people, but we do not eliminate any of that intolerance, nor do we foster understanding, acceptance and compassion if we never talk to children about it about the issues and give them the information they require to make theiir own informed judgement.. and the best ages to foster those things is when they are young.. not at ages where the myths and untruths and prejudices have already pervaded the whole being of the adult.. then it is so much more difficult to eradicate bigotry from the individual and very often impossible..

..and yes Darlin' darlin.. kids can be so cruel and many are incredibly sensitive.. when young we are not completely able to deal with many issues and many slurs true or untrue.. it is not simply gay children who would be advantaged by a proper education of sexuality issues but those who are straight as well...

tenni

Feb 1, 2011, 11:02 AM

"it is not simply gay children who would be advantaged by a proper education of sexuality issues but those who are straight as well..."

Well, stated comments darkeyes :) An education system is expected to grapple with issues of acceptance for all regardless of the minority or discriminated group.

DD
I'm not quite clear as to this idea about painting a bullseye on GLBT students comes from. No education system would do that unless bigotry were entrenched and permitted in the education system (supported by the society as just)? I didn't read that in the original article. You seem to be making such statements based upon your own thoughts?

An education system teaches facts as I have previously stated only when the entire society tolerates such teachings. Dealing with attitudes and values are done through a variety of activities and that would include incidental positive references in many different subjects to create a positive attitude towards whatever social issues is being dealt with. This has been done for decades whether moulding and shaping attitudes towards acceptance of any minority whether it is racial, ethnic, physically or mentally challenged etc. Sexual orientation is just another issue that the education system deals with when society is ready to handle it. The backward push about "gay agenda" comments indicate that there is not total acceptance of sexual orientation within the society at large.

One experience that I am aware of was developing attitudes of acceptance and having the students support /help a Cerebal Palsy student. The student was rejected in Kindergarten at one school due in part to the student's negative reaction to other children. Whether the rejection was caused because of his physical difference (mobility , speech etc.) or the child's belligerent behaviour towards other children, (he hit them) may be argued. When transferred to a new school, the new kindergarten teacher took a great deal of time and discussion to have the students accept the different child. ie Would you help Johnny get over to place X? etc. What developed was a desire to help the disabled student and the parents changed their strategy when reacting to the negative behaviour of their own son etc. (more realistic and didn't accept his behaviour as they had in the past) This acceptance and support went on for about six to eight years. Other students were always willing to help by opening a door etc. What did begin to happen was a lack of acceptance of the disabled child in normal play situations. The other children continued to help him physically but he really had few friends who would go to his house to socialize etc. He couldn't keep up. He couldn't play ball etc. and so kids were helpful but not really accepting socially as they might if he were not disabled. There needed to be a revision of strategies but it was complicated and you can not really force a child to accept another as a friend. The child felt isolated. Attempts were made to have him interact with other Cerebal Palsy youth etc. He was accepted by his peers on certain levels but not on all levels. He was even taken skiing and there were programmes that he could have participated in on weekends with other physcically challenged but the parents failed to get him there. As a fourteen to fifteen year old he was happy but seemed really sad deep down. The same may also happen to a "different" sexual preference child at one point. It is not simple and easy as needs/strategies change over time throughout a student's education.

As I previously stated permitting clubs such as the Gay Alliance Clubs is one approach to alter negative attitudes towards GLBT students. Despite positive attempts to improve acceptance of GLBT people, recently there has been an outbreak of violence towards GLBT people in my province and right in the Gay Village of Toronto. What causes these upheaval of rejection and victimization may come from a variety of sources. Beyond family and education systems there are organizations to help youth when coming "out". You may be a parent with good intentions but you also seem to have a rather naive and narrow understanding of how society does or doesn't deal with discrimination? Who would want to paint a bullseye on anyone regardless of their minority status? Gee

DuckiesDarling

Feb 1, 2011, 11:47 AM

You may be a parent with good intentions but you also seem to have a rather naive and narrow understanding of how society does or doesn't deal with discrimination?

Not naive and definitely not a possesor of narrow understanding. You think because I'm a white heterosexual I have never been the victim of discrimination? Think again. You can be discriminated against for any reason: gender, race, religion and yes sexuality. It happens here as well, people shouldn't post if they are straight or trans or gay, that some people think only bi people should post here yet you can't even agree what you think a bisexual is.

My children were taught that people were people. Any other factors meant nothing in dealing with them, you treat them equal. But apparently in certain people's eyes you can't treat people equal. LGBT has to have more. When certain people wake up the fact that seeking a world where people are judged on the merits of deeds rather than any physical, sexual or religious factor, we just might have a better world.

But in my opinion, pushing a gay agenda on children that is in direct contradiction to their parents or religious beliefs will not be a good thing. Can you just imagine a child coming home to a bigoted father and saying "Mrs. Fran said it's okay to be gay, it's normal" and recieving the back of his father's hand as he knocks him across the room with the angry protest of "don't you dare ever repeat that in my house young man" There a bullseye on his head for his own parents.

Now we have the kids after class and little Timmy says "I think I'm gay and I'm normal" and suddenly gets slammed into lockers as the crowd pushes in on him. Where are you going to be then, Fran? Say you can even keep them safe on school property what about the walk home or the bus? What about the internet? What about the other bullying that will escalate because a frightened child wants to fit in somewhere.

Now think about ways to minimise bullying for all reasons and you might have a better viable solution than just pushing a gay agenda. Remember, many of the kids who suicided were not gay, they were just called gay as part of an ongoing campaign by cruel hearted students to establish dominance over a weaker prey.

tenni

Feb 1, 2011, 2:12 PM

DD
Nope I still read a naive poster commenting...lol

All of the concerns that you mention are known within the education system. Bullying is not accepted regardless of the situation.

I must admit to having heard both sides of a story where it appeared that the one kid was being bullied. When you start digging into the scenarios, you may find out that it is not a simple straight forward case of inappropriate bullying. I'm thinking of one case. It was baffling. The student who appeared to be bullied actually was setting themself up for what on the surface looked like bullying. I spent hours and hours trying to find a solution as it was the bullied student who needed counselling. Schools should not accept any form of bullying though. Some acts can not be completely resolved in a simple way. That is why it is not just a school situation nor just a society or family situation.

There would be so much consultation with the public before any curriculum was implemented on sexual matters of any type. It would be much more general and Fran would not probably make such a statement in a classroom without the support of the school board and public. Any parent who treated their child the way that you report may end up in court in my country. But, yes, it is complicated and you seem to be attempting to make it simple...if not simplistic.

As far as an argument about a "gay agenda" is concerned I think that it would be important to argue against such statements. If the argument that there was a gay agenda started becoming a mainstream belief then the education system would be neutered in creating any programmes.

darkeyes

Feb 1, 2011, 3:35 PM

Not naive and definitely not a possesor of narrow understanding. You think because I'm a white heterosexual I have never been the victim of discrimination? Think again. You can be discriminated against for any reason: gender, race, religion and yes sexuality. It happens here as well, people shouldn't post if they are straight or trans or gay, that some people think only bi people should post here yet you can't even agree what you think a bisexual is.

My children were taught that people were people. Any other factors meant nothing in dealing with them, you treat them equal. But apparently in certain people's eyes you can't treat people equal. LGBT has to have more. When certain people wake up the fact that seeking a world where people are judged on the merits of deeds rather than any physical, sexual or religious factor, we just might have a better world.

But in my opinion, pushing a gay agenda on children that is in direct contradiction to their parents or religious beliefs will not be a good thing. Can you just imagine a child coming home to a bigoted father and saying "Mrs. Fran said it's okay to be gay, it's normal" and recieving the back of his father's hand as he knocks him across the room with the angry protest of "don't you dare ever repeat that in my house young man" There a bullseye on his head for his own parents.

Now we have the kids after class and little Timmy says "I think I'm gay and I'm normal" and suddenly gets slammed into lockers as the crowd pushes in on him. Where are you going to be then, Fran? Say you can even keep them safe on school property what about the walk home or the bus? What about the internet? What about the other bullying that will escalate because a frightened child wants to fit in somewhere.

Now think about ways to minimise bullying for all reasons and you might have a better viable solution than just pushing a gay agenda. Remember, many of the kids who suicided were not gay, they were just called gay as part of an ongoing campaign by cruel hearted students to establish dominance over a weaker prey.

Darlin' darlin there is no gay agenda here except a wish for all children to be safe, accepted and understood no matter their sexuality. No schoolteacher worth her or his salt, or education lesson worthy of the name would ever encourage a child to be so brash and daft as to act as you hypothesise.. of course we want them to feel normal, and not be ashamed of who and what they are, yet never would we wish for them to endanger themselves in school, the street, in the home or anywhere else by taking any action which quite simply could have the consequences you suggest. Any lessons have to be developed with the safety of the child in mind which is why schools should have avenues open for children of all sexualities to approach for help and guidance on a confidential basis, and lessons and information would be so tailored.

Many children's parents are aware that their child is gay or are perfectly prepared to accept that she or he may be gay, yet the child because of how so much of our world perceives homosexuality and bisexuality is simply too afraid to discuss their problems with their parents. I was raised to by loving and understanding parents who had done my education on sexuality.. the school told me nothing.. they liberally raised me to be who I wished to be and what.. yet even I baulked at discussing my sexuality with them and did not find it easy to tell them.. every child is different and her or his circumstances are also different.. so whatever we tell them, it has to be done with care to avoid as far as possible the scenarios you describe. If I ever thought that this could not be done I too would probably feel and think as you appear to.. but I firmly believe that in the long term interests of children, gay, straight, bisexual and transgendered, those of now and those yet to come, such an education can only be of benefit.. it is not a gay agenda darlin'..it is a human agenda aimed at improving the lot of all.. to help them deal with the now and the yet to come...

Long Duck Dong

Feb 1, 2011, 7:17 PM

Many children's parents are aware that their child is gay or are perfectly prepared to accept that she or he may be gay, yet the child because of how so much of our world perceives homosexuality and bisexuality is simply too afraid to discuss their problems with their parents. I was raised to by loving and understanding parents who had done my education on sexuality.. the school told me nothing.. they liberally raised me to be who I wished to be and what.. yet even I baulked at discussing my sexuality with them and did not find it easy to tell them.. every child is different and her or his circumstances are also different.. so whatever we tell them, it has to be done with care to avoid as far as possible the scenarios you describe. If I ever thought that this could not be done I too would probably feel and think as you appear to.. but I firmly believe that in the long term interests of children, gay, straight, bisexual and transgendered, those of now and those yet to come, such an education can only be of benefit.. it is not a gay agenda darlin'..it is a human agenda aimed at improving the lot of all.. to help them deal with the now and the yet to come...

fran thank you so much........you emphasis a point that even * naive * posters like DD know and understand.....

unless the children are open with their parents, a issue exists on the home front..... and thats something we have noticed in this site,... its easier to tell friends and partners, than our own parents...... regardless of the age......

so it begs the question, how do children talk with their parents about a issue even you baulked at, and you have open, understanding and supportive parents........

it comes back to what I said earlier in the thread, about nz schools have a guidance counsellor, its private, its anonymous, its confidental.... and its working...... its the middle ground between parents, and things like LGBT support groups...as the student can access help and talk about issues without being associated with any visible group......

the trouble with pushing groups is that not all people are fine in groups or comfortable, they need the one on one aspect, as they works better.......

and fran, its something that you, as a teacher and parent ( along side kate ) and DD having being parent /mother would both understand so well.....
even I have had to deal with that issue with my own anti LGBT mother....

so right there, we have a glaring issue that can not be simply resolved by educating parents as we know there is a issue with kids not talking or being able to talk with their parents.... something I have addressed in this thread and site before.....

with the internet, we have a open source of info that the kids are using, including other options, such as friends and other avenues....

so when we talk about ways to resolve issues, first we need to look at what the kids are facing, dealing with and how they are dealing with them...... something once again that I have addressed in the thread.....

now we know there is no perfect answer to the problem.... and as long as society continues to implode ( gangs, drugs, alcohol abuse, sex etc ) its becoming more and more evident that we can not control or contain the issue, but save the ones we can.... and yes its not a nice way to look at it... but its simple honest truth.....

yes I agree that teaching about the LGBT is benefical, but teach also about them as people in history and society, not just as a sexuality.... and that gives them a visible face, more than a sexual aspect......

the reason i say that, ( and I have addressed that in this thread too )... is there is fran the teacher / parent / activist / wife / lesbian...... not just fran the lesbian... there is DD, the mother / parent / fiancee / hetero and not just DD the hetero and there is me, LDD, ex soldier / ex counsellor and therapy / ex crim / ex bullied and bully/ game admin / fiancee / bisexual..... not just the bisexual.... and we are normal ordinary people..... yet there is angelina jolie, ryan buell, oscar wilde and many many others that are more than their sexuality.......

unfortunately, in this site, we are all seen by our sexuality, not who we are.......

tenni

Feb 1, 2011, 8:38 PM

"so when we talk about ways to resolve issues, first we need to look at what the kids are facing, dealing with and how they are dealing with them...... something once again that I have addressed in the thread....."

focus grasshopper on the thread topic.
The point of this thread is not about how to counsel GLBT students on their sexuality but the issue is the negative attempt to declare that schools are part of a "gay agenda" accusation. The point is about stopping the teaching of sexuality in schools.

From darkeyes OP
"In a post earlier this week and at other times I have said that in the UK, homosexuality is pretty well accepted by most people, but that I am sure that at some stage there will be a backlash by the forces of bigotry to this state if affairs.. in a way there has been a mini backlash but so far it is not that serious yet it is a little discomforting, as the tool they iuse to bash us over the head with is our children, our education of them, and the decision by our society to offer protection to gay children. A number of prominent MPs and journalists have been niggling away at this and concocting little scenarios in an attempt to udnermine society's current position on homosexuality..

It is not surprising they use children to chip away at us, for there is little so emotive as homosexuality and children. It is for us in the UK to chip away at their prejudice and the misleading way they develop their "theories" and claims.."

from the link that darkeyes gave
"...n into being gay, by relentlessly inserting homosexuality into their maths, geography and science lessons. Their little eyes widened when the gay algebra lesson started, but it worked: their concept of “normal sexual behaviour” has been successfully destroyed. It’s all part of the program brilliantly co-ordinated by the Homintern to imposed The Gay Agenda on Every Aspect of British Life. "

"yes I agree that teaching about the LGBT is benefical, but teach also about them as people in history and society, not just as a sexuality.... and that gives them a visible face, more than a sexual aspect......"

This would be part of how an education system might incidentally improve attitudes and values about the various sexualities. It is what is being opposed according to the linked article. I don't think that anyone rejected this idea...except maybe DD who didn't want the school system teaching sexuality in other subjects?

"unfortunately, in this site, we are all seen by our sexuality, not who we are......."

Uh...this is the bisexual.com...you know the site that is about "bisexual men and women and couples" according to the banner. This is not a cooking class site nor a heterosexual site nor a gay site etc. :bigrin: But I get your point that we are more than our sexuality..so what?..duh???

DuckiesDarling

Feb 1, 2011, 8:50 PM

"so when we talk about ways to resolve issues, first we need to look at what the kids are facing, dealing with and how they are dealing with them...... something once again that I have addressed in the thread....."

focus grasshopper on the thread topic.
The point of this thread is not about how to counsel GLBT students on their sexuality but the issue is the negative attempt to declare that schools are part of a "gay agenda" accusation. The point is about stopping the teaching of sexuality in schools.

From darkeyes OP
"In a post earlier this week and at other times I have said that in the UK, homosexuality is pretty well accepted by most people, but that I am sure that at some stage there will be a backlash by the forces of bigotry to this state if affairs.. in a way there has been a mini backlash but so far it is not that serious yet it is a little discomforting, as the tool they iuse to bash us over the head with is our children, our education of them, and the decision by our society to offer protection to gay children. A number of prominent MPs and journalists have been niggling away at this and concocting little scenarios in an attempt to udnermine society's current position on homosexuality..

It is not surprising they use children to chip away at us, for there is little so emotive as homosexuality and children. It is for us in the UK to chip away at their prejudice and the misleading way they develop their "theories" and claims.."

from the link that darkeyes gave
"...n into being gay, by relentlessly inserting homosexuality into their maths, geography and science lessons. Their little eyes widened when the gay algebra lesson started, but it worked: their concept of “normal sexual behaviour” has been successfully destroyed. It’s all part of the program brilliantly co-ordinated by the Homintern to imposed The Gay Agenda on Every Aspect of British Life. "

"yes I agree that teaching about the LGBT is benefical, but teach also about them as people in history and society, not just as a sexuality.... and that gives them a visible face, more than a sexual aspect......"

This would be part of how an education system might incidentally improve attitudes and values about the various sexualities. I don't think that anyone rejected this idea...except maybe DD who didn't want the school system teaching sexuality in other subjects?

"unfortunately, in this site, we are all seen by our sexuality, not who we are......."

Uh...this is the bisexual.com...you know the site that is about "bisexual men and women and couples" according to the banner. This is not a cooking class site nor a heterosexual site nor a gay site etc. :bigrin: But I get your point that we are more than our sexuality..so what?..duh???

Tenni, you have twisted and misconstrued almost every word I have posted in this thread. I care about children. I care about children dying. I care about equal rights for all. I have seen firsthand the bullying that goes on for various reasons. I have had to deal with it with my own children. I know how schools work, I know how parents SHOULD interact with schools and don't. And further more I am not NAIVE enough to think that child abuse does not occur in every single country regardless of the penalties for doing such a thing.

Long Duck Dong

Feb 1, 2011, 9:04 PM

focus on the thread topic ??? why can't I talk about things like being a mother and parent and teacher and dealing with your kids issues, with people that have done that and are in that situation ????

the article that fran linked, included references to students, bullying, sexuality, etc... issues that are being talked about in this thread as aspects of the topic and aspects that fran and DD can talk about based on personal experience

now I went and researched more of the article, hence I posted about stoke newington secondary, and posted about NZ schools..... and that was outside of professional experience...its called being open minded and looking at all the issues.... so I will post as I see fit, and discuss things as I see fit... and not be restricted to what pleases you cos you lack the knowledge and experience of the mother, teacher and parents in the thread.... and they would have a unique perspective...

please take a screenshot where it says bisexuals men, woman and couples only as everybody else can not see it...... cos until Drew states that only bisexuals are welcome here, I will continue to act in the manner of embracing everybody as part of the community... without prejudice..... and that is the difference between you and me......
now if you wish to direct me to google, it lists the site for bisexual men, women and couples and as any idiot would know... that is a search bot tag to maximise the site visibility.... if it said bisexual community, the site would not list as highly in a search engine.... the more bisexual.com is visible, the more that 3 pillows gets viewed and 3 pillows pays for bisexual.com server usage.... any site owner knows that you say whatever you need to to get max coverage and thats exactly what drew did...and it works.....
standard website advertising 101.....

now if you will excuse me, I was talking with fran about issues that she addressed that you can't, as fran raised some very valid points that I wish to discuss with her, in the thread for the benefit of myself and others that may read and have a interest as well......

darkeyes

Feb 2, 2011, 5:59 AM

[I][COLOR="Red"]" Uh...this is the bisexual.com...you know the site that is about "bisexual men and women and couples" according to the banner. This is not a cooking class site nor a heterosexual site nor a gay site etc. :bigrin: But I get your point that we are more than our sexuality..so what?..duh???

Interesting thing about bisexuality Tenni me luffly..is that by definition it has to involve issues of gay and straight sex and gender issues.. u may be bisexual, but u do not have bisexual sex.. u have straight or gay sex.. even mmf or ffm 3somes where the majority gender plays with one another is but a mixture of both... even where all 3 are bisexual men or women.. u have gay sex... if a bi man and woman get it together..it is straight sex... so chill with the gettin so uptight..

Long Duck Dong

Feb 2, 2011, 6:15 AM

tenni

Feb 2, 2011, 1:24 PM

Interesting thing about bisexuality Tenni me luffly..is that by definition it has to involve issues of gay and straight sex and gender issues.. u may be bisexual, but u do not have bisexual sex.. u have straight or gay sex.. even mmf or ffm 3somes where the majority gender plays with one another is but a mixture of both... even where all 3 are bisexual men or women.. u have gay sex... if a bi man and woman get it together..it is straight sex... so chill with the gettin so uptight..

True in essence perhaps but to show you a different way of perceiving it. I do not think that I am having gay sex though. I think that I am having same sexual experiences when with a man. I'm having opposite sexual experience when with a woman. With choice of language can come power and identity (to some extent...I don't completely buy that...lol) The mere choice of how I perceive my sexual experiences from how you perceive them indicates a varying view.

However, bisexuals by the mere fact that they deal with issues of relating to both genders and how they decide to live their lives makes it not a heterosexual or gay site. I truly respect your views but the dominance of heterosexual partners speaking on issues that they personally do not experience colours this site's entire raison d'etre. When a heterosexual also believes that they should be the first person to speak to a bisexual who is asking a question and that they are entitled to condemn a bisexual for their actions..it f*ck'n sucks. Just as a site designated for bisexual men only colours what and how things are discussed; having vocal heterosexuals speaking frequently on this site colours and alters what it is about. Heterosexuals should stick to issues connected to a bisexual couple but tread carefully imposing their opinion on bisexuals. I know that sites for gay men have a very different tone and even philosophical position than a bisexual male site or this bisexual men and women site. As far as couples are concerned there is a great deal more discussion on bisexuals with a heterosexual partner than there is of a bisexual with a same sex partner........just sayn'

Now back to the thread topic.

Long Duck Dong

Feb 2, 2011, 5:38 PM

if it was not for the heterosexuals speaking out about the issues they face with having bisexual partners.... many of the bisexuals would remain ignorant to anything outside of their sexual desires......

and if it was not for non bisexuals in the site, many of the bisexuals that want a outside opinion, would never get it......

most of the condemnation of bisexuals as also come from other bisexuals as not all of us as selfish, narrow minded, cock driven bigots.... and thankfully we have people like fran, DD, peg, innaminka, annika and many other that are hetero, lesbian, bisex, trans etc.... to help balance the understanding of bisexuality and bisexuals and living with bisexuals......

there is a old saying that birds of a feather flock together.... and maybe the people with issues with non bisexual people having a voice as part of the bisexual community, should look for other sites that are more suited to bigoted and biased bisexual opinions and behievour.....