20 years on, any lessons from desert storm?

[bigbadmax]

After 20 years are there any improvements?

Service personnel are still suffering with ptsd, minimal help from succesive governments, friendly fire still the norm and oik prices are soaring.

Our troops endure.

Has anything changed?

ENGLAND EXPECTS EVERYMAN TO DO HIS DUTY.

bless em all, the long and the short and the tall.

[Long Duck Dong]

in nz, the nam vets are still having to fight for compensation, even the vets pension and medical fees support that they are legally entitled, is not given to them, they have to jump thru all the loops to prove that they should be entitled to it......

the trouble is a lot of people think in terms of * we won / lost the war, so its over *.... unfortunately many of the people that came home, are still fighting, its just the enemy that changes

[Falke]

Well, from a dictator's standpoint...

Don't invade Kuwait.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Its the same here in America, Gentlemen. I worked int the VA field for 15 years in Claims Substanciations for Veterans and their families, and the war for benefits is Still on going, and always Shall be. While the rest of the Nation may be grateful for the sacrifices that Veterans of all wars gave, they are might slow in giving Back. And more and more health benefits are being cut to Vets and their families everyday. Health care for Agent Orange and Gulf War Syndrome are all but nill, and Military hops for Soldiers returning home are a joke. They are expected to get transportation thru their own means now, once they return to US soil. Aint that a crock??
Our Vets of all Nations deserve better, but they arent getting it. :(
Cat

[Bluebiyou]

After 20 years are there any improvements?
It depends on your perspective. Actually this would be better stated "after 65 - 70 years are there any improvements?" for we have slid deeply into the Orwellian perpetual war ever since the Eisenhower administration. WWII (1940-1945), Korean war (1950-1953/present), Vietnam war (1955-1975), cold war (1948-1988), and lastly the ever morphing wars in the oil rich middle east (Iranian revolution 1979-rebellion against western control/influence - not to mention totalitarian state) (Iran-Iraq War 1980 - 1988) (desert storm etc. 1991-2011/present). The conflict between Islamic fundamentalism and western ideology (and control) substantially helps fuel this.

Service personnel are still suffering with ptsd, minimal help from successive governments, friendly fire still the norm
Always have, always will.
As a very small token of recompense, military is one of the few remaining vocations that begin paying pensions for life after 20 years of service. Pensions have been fast disappearing in the private sector for the past 20 years.

and oil prices are soaring.
Don't be ignorant. Oil prices are artificially low. Oil prices should have been at this point over ten years ago. An intended byproduct of perpetual war is to stimulate economy. Keep oil rich small nations at war... not enough to seriously damage the oil infrastructure though... did anyone notice that part????
Perspective - I wrote a letter to the editor of the main newspaper of my big city in the early 1990s, encouraging infrastructure change and development, bicycle paths, etc while oil was cheap (around $1 per gallon). My letter was met by ignorant following letters "If you think gas is so cheap... you should pay my gasoline bills... blah, blah, blah". People always say and think petrol is expensive regardless of the truth. Wake up usa, at $3 per gallon, it is still cheap. The bell curve of oil production vs. worldwide reserves (ref Scientific American 1998) and traditional economic models of supply vs. demand. We (usa) should add 40 cent federal tax per gallon immediately to help with our deficit and curtail our petrol usage (I've been advocating this since 2003 when it was less than $1.50 a gallon). But our higher objective is clear; drain the middle east of it's oil and power, to our economic advantage, and military development.
Other details of our method are effective. The middle east sells oil to support their infrastructure. Yet, how many refineries are in the middle east? Their hiking oil prices both lowers stock values (what they invest in) and raises domestic middle east gasoline prices (economic impact even though {please note - heavily local government subsidized} ludicrously low gasoline prices in middle east).
What happened to Dubai (and other arab nations) when oil prices convulsed upward three years ago? I rest my case.

Our troops endure.
They always have (unimportant in perpetual war).

Has anything changed?
Perpetual war model supporting economy and incrementally increasing government control. This model has been given a serious threatening blow with the arrival of the internet (last 12 years) and the internet's impact on free global speech. Simultaneously tolerated only because of internet's boost to economy (major objective of perpetual war).

ENGLAND EXPECTS EVERYMAN TO DO HIS DUTY.
As does America, Oceania, and all powers.

bless em all, the long and the short and the tall.
And may God please save us from ourselves.
I love Fran with every fiber in my being. She is an inspiration to my faith (too bad I'll never meet her!).
Yet, even Fran's optimism in humanity... doesn't seem enough to save us from ourselves.
Only one correction I'd make to the book "1984"; the writer of "The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism" should have been written by Emmanuel Mohammad Goldstein (Christian, Islam, Judaism) not just Emmanuel Goldstein (Christian, Judaism).

Side note: wow, this is my 777th post. I'm old.

And the instant after I posted this, the "One Love" thread started. Maybe Fran is right.

[darkeyes]

Wivout optimism Blue me luffly.. we will get nowhere 'cept oblivion..:)

Dont take issue with 2 much yas sed.. 'cept maybe that oil prices are artificially low.. think that is a point which could be argued... after all.. they arent oil poor gulf states r they? OPEC isnt an artificially poor organisation is it? An oil companies arent poor (not even BP even after its recent calamity).. an state coffers have lotsa luffly taxation through oil... oil barons and sheikhs can hardly b said 2 b down on their uppers can they? Could go on.. yep babe.. think the claim that oil prices r artificially low is very arguable indeed...:). Who sez?:rolleyes:

[darkeyes]

..an England can expect whatever it likes.. what my state and its government expects of me, and what I expect of myself in good conscience are two completely different things... and what I expect from my state and its government is what I am getting, but what I wish for, argue for, fight for and believe in bears no relation to that expectation..

Aaahh the idealism of the dreamer.. must I always be on the outside looking in?:rolleyes:

[Hephaestion]

1) In days gone by, the representative of OPEC was one phonetically appropriate "Sheik Yamani"

2) In the USA petrol is much lower than in the UK. In the UK the price is approx 80% tax.

[12voltman59]

With the exception of perhaps the Civil War and World War II, this nation beginning with the vets of the Revolutionary War has failed to fully take care of those who fought for this country but survived those wars with wounds to mind, body and spirit. Certainly in the modern era our leaders have screwed the vets---beginning with WWI when the US failed to pay the vets their combat bonuses--then many of those vets traveled to Washington, DC where they set up a camp--that camp was then destroyed by use of force.

The Korean vets were basically forgotten, then Vietnam vets fought for treatment for exposure to Agent Orange and the other defoliants that were used there---chemicals that have had all sorts of negative health consequences.

In Gulf War I---there was the issue of exposure to the remnants of rounds containing "depleted uranium" and issues of PTSD among those vets.

Today, the services are doing pretty good with those who get their arms and legs blasted off, not so much with traumatic head injuries and surely not good at all with the situation of PTSD or related conditions that is leading to a record number of suicides among returning troops and former service members.

http://www.mediafreedominternational.org/2010/03/01/suicide-rates-reach-high-among-american-troops-and-veterans/

The powers-that-be always seem to sucker us in to "do our duty."

[bigbadmax]

Bluebiyou,

Ignorance is bliss....petroleum is currently £6.00/$9.00 per gallon here,LOW MY ARSE!
Maybe we should have higher prices so that lower incomes starve to death due to inability to pay for basic necessities...
Go green if you want but not at the expense of my health and wellbeing.

[darkeyes]

Bluebiyou,

Ignorance is bliss....petroleum is currently £6.00/$9.00 per gallon here,LOW MY ARSE!
Maybe we should have higher prices so that lower incomes starve to death due to inability to pay for basic necessities...
Go green if you want but not at the expense of my health and wellbeing.

If a litre of petrol costs £1.26.9 at the pump the actual cost of the stuff is only 41.8p plus 5p which is split between the retailer and delivery costs.. the remainder is broken down as 58.95p fuel tax and 21.15p VAT, which means 80p per litre is tax of one kind or other. So we can see why fuel at the pump is so high.. should it be so highly taxed? It is arguable in these days of high pollution and global warming.. my own view is that it is probably the right thing to do..and oil is an increasingly scarce commodity even if on the surface there seems plenty about..

..it isnt high fuel prices which is making things so difficult for the less well off.. the problems with British society are much more deeply rooted than the cost of fuel...

This morning I fillled my car up for work.. £51.19 it came too.. by the time the week is over it will probably have cost me something like 80 quid getting to and from work.. so I am of necessity a high fuel user.. I am lucky I can afford it but it is a huge hole out of my earnings every week. Do I grudge it? On whole no.. my choice, and my fuel costs like everything else are budgeted for. I would prefer to have a realistic public transport option and would use it if it existed.. but I dont so unless I change job, my alternative doesnt exist..

[bigbadmax]

Fran,

I have a motability car...economical but essential, which takes £70.00 to fill. No car means I am trapped indoorsa, therefore a necessary good(for me).

If the cost of fuel increases, so do ALL goods that require transportation ergo, ALL goods increase in price.

The argument that "I dont drive, so the price of fuel does not affect me" is blown out of the water.

In relation to 1st Gulf war, not removal of dictator but protecting SAUDI oil.
2nd war was called " OP TELIC" which we(I was there) dubbed "take every last iraqui combustable".
Reason for going there, in my opinion was American greed.

Phil

[darkeyes]

I agree with you Max.. but there are far more fundamental problems wrong with our economy than simply blaming the price of fuel for rising costs.. they play their part as do many different things.. indirect taxation being one, other inflationary pressures being another.. and of course a simple thing like thats the cost take it or leave it.. greed by both producer and retailer.. both of whom often put prices up (and I admit sometimes down) because they choose to.. in pursuit of nothing more than the golden apple of profit.. splashing out profits to shareholders being one reason they do that.. and then they blame unreasonable pay claims by workers who ask for their bit of the cake.. my sister in law works for a company which recently paid out 40 million quid in profits to shareholders. The workforce had a pay claim in which would have cost the firm 6 million.. this was rejected as unreasonable and would cause inflationary pressures in our economy in these times of austerity and make the cost of their services uncompetitive.. now you tell me where the price rises come from? Especially when they put up their prices by an average of 11% in August and are to be raised again by a further 5% in April.. The company made 19 million profit in the last quarter alone and project an increase in profits this year from 61 millions to 74 million in the finacial year 2010/11. It does however project that in the next financial year, its profits will drop to less than 30 million.. and that raises its own questions.

Such is the type of economy we have.. if we have a capitalist ecomony which we do.. fine.. but for God's sake, shouldnt shareholders expect a more reasonable return on their investment?? NOT the lions share at the expense of the workers who produce the goods and provide the services. My sister in law's company is not unusual in operating as it does.. and splashing out the bulk of profits to shareholders, paying its workforce a bloody miserly pay rise (if at all and that is still up in the air), and not investing enough of those profits in modernising and R&D is a recipe for trouble to say the least..

I am a student of British social history, Max me darling, and operating as this one company does is syptomatic of why is Britain lost its manufacturing base throughout the last century.. not fuel costs alone.. and not government interference, but more fundamental incompetencies, greed and innefficiences... and of course short sightedness.. and there are hundreds of firms just like it...

These are only a few of the factors keyed in to costs and rising prices.. no one denies that fuel costs play their part, but they are by no means anywhere near the whole story..

[DuckiesDarling]

To answer the OP. No.

And in the last few years on this forum, the only thing that has changed is the names of those that want to bash the US for whatever is wrong in the world.

The economy around the world depends on oil, it depends on it to do everything from manufacturing of goods to transportation of goods to the marketing of the goods.

As prices go up on oil, the prices of production and retailing of goods goes up. It will stay up, everything will stay up including the price of food. Why? We pay.

[darkeyes]

And in the last few years on this forum, the only thing that has changed is the names of those that want to bash the US for whatever is wrong in the world.




Not all the names Darlin' darlin... but the US isn't responsible for all the ills of the world far from it.. however, like my own country.. you do, or more accurately, your government, does leave itself open to taking a lot of flak for the things it can be criticised for... and arguably at least, more than its fair share..:)

[Hephaestion]

The History of the UK is well established. Falure to invest and an expectation that there will be eternal profits from plundering and exploitaiton. The USA is not far behind. Net result - we owe our backsides to the the Chinese. And it is going to get worse as the resources of the world become relatively, and actually, scarce.

Lessons to learn from Desert Storm:

a) not to over immunise, Hence one should not give combined vaccines to children (measles mumps and rubella - done on purely economical grounds)

b) women are expendable as in the Kuwait man who made his wives to walk 'six paces ahead' in case of land mines

c) One should not culture and support dictators

d) conventional war still works but not against geurrilas.

e) don't outstay one's welcome as not being able to fix what one breaks becomes apparent

f) wars cost money (lives unimportant) and the booty is not always adequate compensation

g) our politicians are not to be trusted as they lie to their electorate

h) big dogs always piss on their smaller dog companions.

.

[Bluebiyou]

Wivout optimism Blue me luffly.. we will get nowhere 'cept oblivion..:)

Dont take issue with 2 much yas sed.. 'cept maybe that oil prices are artificially low.. think that is a point which could be argued... after all.. they arent oil poor gulf states r they? OPEC isnt an artificially poor organisation is it? An oil companies arent poor (not even BP even after its recent calamity).. an state coffers have lotsa luffly taxation through oil... oil barons and sheikhs can hardly b said 2 b down on their uppers can they? Could go on.. yep babe.. think the claim that oil prices r artificially low is very arguable indeed...:). Who sez?:rolleyes:

Ah, Fran my love.
Although I love you until every tomorrow, I cannot say that black is white and 1 is 0.
Why do you think the middle east is so lacking in refineries?
Surely an oil rich, rich, rich, 3rd world nation can afford sufficient refineries for local gasoline (heavily subsidized) production.
Gasoline prices must remain low for USA/European economy (and subsequent lower entities).
The middle east is sitting on swimming pools (albeit underground) of oil in caves. In caves. Not mixed with sand like in Canada. Half the oil of the world lay (previous) and lies (future) in those middle east caves.
Ah, but food... among other things... this brings in the costs of the rest of the world vs. subsidized masses (even in the wealthiest nation).

Imagine for yerself.
Scotland and Ireland atop half the worlds past and future wealth. The bourgeoisie lives well, among the top .01% of the world. The Proletariat lives well, among the top 10% of the world (through subsidies not production).
England, along with the rest of the world, rape the wealth initially until the world climate demands we must let Scots and Irish rule themselves. The other highest powers in the world (esp usa) support pro USA Scott and Irish leaders and corporation heads. Everyone ties Scottish/Irish wealth to their model. The Scotts/Irish have nothing to do with their incredible riches but invest outside of themselves.
Then the Irish/Scottish resource becomes (expectedly) more rare. Prices skyrocket. But the the Irish/Scottish have by their very human nature, spread themselves out so thin, so dependent on outside services/credit/imported products that Scotland/Ireland suffers more than the reasonable financial expectations for loans and returns, etc. Ireland/Scotland is so tied to the external world that hiking prices of their world commodity must be dampened for the sale of their own economy. Not to mention the world has kept the two in states of war for decades... simply because it is in the best interest of others to do so.

So yes, perpetual war, combined with external oil companies, perpetual motivation for corruption equals presently artificially low oil prices. Not to mention reserves vs. supply/demand curves of classic economics. This is only sustainable for a short while, perhaps a decade at most, before market realities catch up - like a real bitch.
This is going to be a real mess, we've only seen the intro.

[Hephaestion]

Blue - you sound like you've a bad attack of economics. Get treatment quick. The later symptoms are a delusional state that money solves everything.

Father Vito Cornelius: "........There, you see now, how all your so-called power counts for absolutely nothing now, how your entire empire can come crashing down because of one... little... cherry"

[AidanS57]

The sad fact is the price of oil affects everything. Higher prices on barrels of oil equal a higher price at the pump and that will pass on to the final buyer of a product. Freight charges are added for a reason to invoices, think about it.

[darkeyes]

The sad fact is the price of oil affects everything. Higher prices on barrels of oil equal a higher price at the pump and that will pass on to the final buyer of a product. Freight charges are added for a reason to invoices, think about it.

Very true Aidan.. but I always find it ever so interesting that when the price of oil drops, prices never seem to drop anything like the degree or as quickly as they rise when the price of a barrel goes up.. "We are paying the cost for oil bought months ago for the former..". They keep schtum about the latter...

.. but the price of oil isnt the only factor in rising prices and making life economically difficult for people... and thats the point.. it is but one factor to be keyed in to a much more complex inflationary/deflationary equation..

[DuckiesDarling]

Very true Aidan.. but I always find it ever so interesting that when the price of oil drops, prices never seem to drop anything like the degree or as quickly as they rise when the price of a barrel goes up.. "We are paying the cost for oil bought months ago for the former..". They keep schtum about the latter...

.. but the price of oil isnt the only factor in rising prices and making life economically difficult for people... and thats the point.. it is but one factor to be keyed in to a much more complex inflationary/deflationary equation..

refer to post 15

[Long Duck Dong]

Very true Aidan.. but I always find it ever so interesting that when the price of oil drops, prices never seem to drop anything like the degree or as quickly as they rise when the price of a barrel goes up.. "We are paying the cost for oil bought months ago for the former..". They keep schtum about the latter...

.. but the price of oil isnt the only factor in rising prices and making life economically difficult for people... and thats the point.. it is but one factor to be keyed in to a much more complex inflationary/deflationary equation..

the trouble there is the cost drops at the point of production.... the old stock is still at the old cost..... cos its brought at the old price and the stock in the pumps may be 12 months old...... cos you have to get it from the ground, transport it, refine it, transport it again etc etc.....

now yes the oil companies post record profits... but one of those companies spent nearly a bill of that profit in one year in nz, looking for oil.......

yeah they pay out big money to share holders, but the shareholders put in big money in the first place to make sure the company grows and makes a big profit.....

now,.... things are hard, but we created that, we want faster, better, superior etc etc.... we want the latest, the best, the most.... and the companies will provide..... but in order to do that, they have to spend more and more money researching and creating so we have what we want..... so they have to cover the costs.... and so we pay.....

its the same with things like power / electricity.... we bitch and moan about global warming etc.... like they did in nz, and then when some of the power companies wanted to put in renewable / natural powered forms of power production like wind farms... the greenies bitched and moaned about how it was not a good look and didn't fit in with the environment....

we now see a lot of that.... people that think that they know better ... and when their ideas screw things up.... they complain about it...and forget they created the issue.....

I am better off now than I was when I was making $800 a week..... and the reason is simple.... I was finding ways to spend $800 a week..... and now I do not make $800 a week and so I am not having to find ways to spent $800 a week

reminds me of a manager of a finance firm that collapsed in NZ recently.... pleading hardship to the courts cos he had to live on 1000 a week.... and the court said to him......" 90k porsche and a 100k mercedes benz, 240k in the bank and spent the last few months living in a $42k a month mansion... and you are pleading hardship ???????

[lokione]

Two events in the past week....

First last weekend I went to a funeral of a dear friend that was only 62. Died of cancer. Did 30 years in the military and two tours in Nam. Coincidence? Who knows, but in the military you are constantly exposed to harsh chemicals that most "companies" would be fined so heavily for using they would move to places like Mexico and China.

Second, had a phone call from another dear friend that is in Iraq. Yep modern marvel of Internet Phone. Funny but just last week as he was flying around at 3am his airplane was attacked via a surface to air missile. For some reason, probably political, IRAQ has now become the forgotten war.

Lesson learned? No, same old political BS that keeps people in perpetual state of fear and terror. Pretty sure it all started when the first ape decided it wanted what the other ape had.

[Bluebiyou]

Blue - you sound like you've a bad attack of economics. Get treatment quick. The later symptoms are a delusional state that money solves everything.

Father Vito Cornelius: "........There, you see now, how all your so-called power counts for absolutely nothing now, how your entire empire can come crashing down because of one... little... cherry"
Hep!!!
I just had a shot of Vodka!
(will that be sufficient treatment for now?)
If I conveyed a 'money solves everything' attitude then I miscommunicated. I was pointing out, contrary to 'money solves everything' the inherent (sometimes forced) interdependency (hence the Dubai reference).
I just think there is little doubt that oil is, and has been artificially low.
It's not like the middle east is left to themselves, peacefully, without an outside state forcing or influencing war or totalitarian state for the past 70 years (or has it been a hundred?), to determine in peaceful union (UNION!!!! The workers friend and defender!) the fair price for a barrel of oil.
After all, it's not like the middle east is forcing us to buy their oil. They don't have guns to our head (but I think we have guns to theirs!).
Think about it... as long as Saddam maintained war with Iran (thus they both have to sell oil to finance their war efforts) everything was cool.
When the Iran - Iraq war was officially over in 1988... good God... Allah Akbar.. they could unite semi peacefully over common economics. And so, with the invasion of a very minor country (which the Iraq sought USA ambassador permission to invade Kuwait prior to invasion, remember?) the world declared, not total, but a perpetual war with Saddam (1991). Remember the worlds top priority? Saddam proved it beyond any doubt by setting fire to the oil wells. WE MUST PUT THOSE OIL WELLS OUT and start them producing again. That's why our perpetual war is now in the middle east. It might even include Venezuela. Why? Because each and every country in South America has been politically volatile and changed hands so many, many times in the past 100 years (with our self righteous 'hands off' policy) that we finally need to come to the rescue of the Venezuelans? ... Or rap the dictator Chavez for not playing ball (with their oil) as we want him to?
Hep, I'm a dyed in the wool conservative. Yet, I try not to lie to myself. Those (with oil reserves) who don't play well with others... war... or other coercion is the answer. Oil is artificially low.
You don't see the world going to war with south Africa to keep down the price of gold, do you? You don't see perpetual war being declared on the Amish to keep the price of quilts down, do you?
Oil prices are artificially low. Forced. I rest my case.

[Hephaestion]

The accepted treatment is 2 vodkas - see to it immediately

H.
(PS - personally I go for gin)

[darkeyes]

The accepted treatment is 2 vodkas - see to it immediately

H.
(PS - personally I go for gin)

Luff Blue dearly Heph.. but afta restin' 'is case.. me reckons 'e's had moren 2 Voddie's an its affected 'is thinkin... kissie n huggle 2 Blue.. hopeya hangova dusn hit 2 hard 1ce yas wakened up.. :tong: