My Turn Now...

[IanBorthwick]

With all the crap on the boards and all the things people are bickering about in quite a nasty fashion, where no one seems to listen and everyone seems to be shouting...where I see we're willingly giving up freedoms for safety and blowing our own rights and the rights of others....and then the fact that I can't have a simple chat with anyone anymore even in real life. I mean seriously folks, I have to avoid a ton of crap even things in my own life that has been hurting me.

This past year has been the suckiest of my adult life and all i wanted out of it was a little less crap. I got it in spades, from nearly dying, to being tossed from my niece and nephew's life, to then trying to get in touch with friends who want to treat me like an idiot. My car gets vandalized because I drive an SUV to do demos in health food stores and the patrons find it offensive to their sensibilities, and then the good old ridden out on a rail from my home because the person who bought it has the cash to drive me out despite poisoning me and nearly killing me this year of a stroke. And I am still dealing with the after effects.

Then a lady smashes through my car and gets away with paying the minimum to the insurance and doesn't even get me back up and running, I lose work because of it, and then get kicked when I am down several times here.

Yeah it all sounds random, but I have to say that I'm not really hot for this stuff anymore. And most especially I am sick of being the most educated person I know being called stupid by people who don't even know the facts, and these are supposed to be friends of mine.

Or suffering the slings of Sexism couched in feminist bullshit because it's accepted in modern society and even encouraged.

Or even having creeps trail me...

I now know why, in all honesty, there were hermits.

Without the comic to bring me back, I doubt I will. Not that anyone is gonna give a shit, or the sexism(read bigoted feminist bullshit) will stop, or any of the PC Police and PC rebels are going to stop taking swings at each other here, or any of you will wonder "Who the hell was that lurking freak who sang and no one cared..."

The only one who cared to know who I am, you all have given crap to..and those who have shown they cared I appreciate your concern. But I'm out. I don't know if I can ever bring myself back here, but you never know....

But who gives a damn, right? It's only me...

[Long Duck Dong]

slips a arm around you and gives you a hug...... I know how life can be fuckin tough at times..... I know only too well

so do yourself a favour and never stop singing.... one sweet voice from the sidelines, will always be far better than 60 in a forum going head to head over thing they can never change.....

I could do the * take some time out and then come back thing *, but hell if it was not for another personal attack on me and my partner when I was gone from the site, I would have never returned..... and even now, after seeing some shit in the forums I wish I never did....

so ian, walk tall, sing out loud and smile cos they are a few of the things that nobody can take from you.....

[DuckiesDarling]

hugs ya Ian. There is a lot I'd love to say but I'll just say stay in touch. Email me through my profile and I'll answer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i28UEoLXVFQ

[gfofbiguy]

{{{HUGSZ}}} to you, Ian. I'll miss you and your singing - and ditto what DD said, stay in touch and you can contact me through my email on my profile here.

[Nadir]

Im sorry for what has happened to you. Sometimes people dont appreciate the things that we do for them :( And also, life is sometimes a bitch, but it has good seasons too, after all. And I am sorry to hear about you not being able to be in your niece and nephew´s lives. Ive got nephews too, and, even if I dont see them as much as I could, I would be very sad if something stopped me from seeing them. But dont worry, Im sure things will look up soon :) For every time in yout life that you feel sad there will be ten when you will feel marvelous.

[darkeyes]

Im sorry you're going Ian. I'm sorry you feel as you do, and I am always sorry when people leave what was once a lovely site. That it is less so now is sad but I suppose loveliness doesnt last forever. I have felt and do feel much as you and have left and threatened to disappear and come back. Its always a mistake to come back unless you are sure.. cos as I've found the place is almost addictive.

So many people have gone of late, for one reason or other, and people I have cared for, and still do. You and I, we haven't gotten to now each other but we have in a way through our posts, my opinionations and your music, which I have always listened to. Don't make the mistake we dont care just because we dont get to know everyone.. most do even if we dont tell you..

I know there has been a deterioration in politeness and respect for each other on site and I suppose there are a million and one reasons for this. I've no doubt I share some of the responsibility for that even if I have tried to be respectful and avoid the personal.. there are always those who will take offence and find what we say disrespectful.. where we may part comany is that this site does reflect the real world, and in the real world it is harsh, and people of all opinions can and will, as is their right stand up for the things they believe in, and they will get het up about things, as people do, and very often as they should. Sometimes it is best to stay quiet and say nothing, but at least as often, it is better to say too much than too little or nothing at all. And if some of us go on a bit its because we believe and have passion for the things we say and believe. Often to the extent we refuse to lay down and die in debate.. it is something I find very difficult to do unless proven without question the error of my ways, and sometimes even on what others may consider issues of trivia. However trivial we may believe things to be, they are not to everyone.

I am however, mystified about one thing you seem to complain about and that is sexism and feminist bigotry in particular.. There is remarkably little feminism in these forums. I am a feminist, but I am neither anti male or demand a leg up because of my gender. I never criticise a man because he is a man.. but for what he says and what he is as a human being, not as a man.. I ask for no more than to be considered equal to any male, and to be given equality of opportunity with men on merit.. no more no less. It is similar to my sexuality where I wish for no more and no less in respect of my standing with those in the straight world, and believe the same consideration should be given to the trans gendered and any other minority group in our societies..

No matter the reason Ian, you feel its time to move on..and I wish you nothing but good.. keep the singing up and enjoy.. but most of all, be happy.

[AidanS57]

Ian, I am sorry to see you go though I can completely understand the reasons.

More to the point I understand what you meant by the feminism remark and I'm appalled that darkeyes slams men so often she doesn't even remember using the phrase "lesser mortals" in a thread and offending you.

Quoted below


This was her attempt to get me back in her life, after she and all the others had slammed the door on me and shoved me out and called it,"Ian Abandoned Us" game. This is my entire family now. SO when she wanted me BACK in her life, I took up the chance immediately so my son would have his cousins.

This betrayal is classic of my family, and nothing I didn't mentally expect, but I was so shocked at how shallow the reasoning was it hurt like no bodies business. Since being stolen from, having my college fund taken by HER, and working with a tremendous amount of pain full time while trying to put myself through City College, having my grants stolen from my Bank Account by my mother...I've locked them out of my life for 20 years! I should have never been fooled into trusting them again...and I never will be.

"cos while I am often critical of the lesser mortal I am incredibly fond of them"

Here's a clue, Franny, that's misandronysm right there. You may think it a joke, but it's not funny.

It's been made apparent to you by a few men on this site that they do not find your cutesy lesbian phrase appropriate for this forum. You argue quite eloquently for equality for all and respecting others and just recently respecting what a few don't want to be called. Well here's a big clue from a man. We don't want to be called a lesser mortal. It's not funny.

[Realist]

Ian, you're not the only one who has their problems. We've all probably been through things that depress us. I admit your situation seems a little much...........but, at least, when things get better, you'll appreciate it more!

A hippie told me one time, "Hey man, you don't know where UP is, until you've been DOWN for a while!"

Pretty astute statement, from someone who was usually in a fog of smoke 24/7!

You're smart, have talent, and can rely on your own brain for the right path for you........................so, if things aren't going well for you, figure out how to make things better and get at it!

[NotLostJustWandering]

Hey man, first of all I want to thank you for all you have posted here. The environment is not the friendliest, and it takes guts to share such painful things as you have, guts that can only attract the envy of those who only venture here hiding behind fake personas. Secondly, I've been feeling your pain all this time and I'm sorry if I haven't always expressed that.

These forums can be frustrating when we want them to be something they're not. Drop what doesn't serve you. Feel free to take a break or just lurk. Just do keep in touch with those of us who care about you.

Sending my e-mail address in a PM.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Ian, I am sorry to see you go though I can completely understand the reasons.

More to the point I understand what you meant by the feminism remark and I'm appalled that darkeyes slams men so often she doesn't even remember using the phrase "lesser mortals" in a thread and offending you.

It's been made apparent to you by a few men on this site that they do not find your cutesy lesbian phrase appropriate for this forum. You argue quite eloquently for equality for all and respecting others and just recently respecting what a few don't want to be called. Well here's a big clue from a man. We don't want to be called a lesser mortal. It's not funny.


A M E N ! ! !

[NotLostJustWandering]

If you're feeling this much stress and depressed get help.

Get a life, troll.

http://i775.photobucket.com/albums/yy32/Sonicbowling/TROLL.jpg

[NotLostJustWandering]

Pretty astute statement, from someone who was usually in a fog of smoke 24/7!


You almost make it sound like a bad thing!

[darkeyes]

Ian, I am sorry to see you go though I can completely understand the reasons.

More to the point I understand what you meant by the feminism remark and I'm appalled that darkeyes slams men so often she doesn't even remember using the phrase "lesser mortals" in a thread and offending you.

Quoted below



It's been made apparent to you by a few men on this site that they do not find your cutesy lesbian phrase appropriate for this forum. You argue quite eloquently for equality for all and respecting others and just recently respecting what a few don't want to be called. Well here's a big clue from a man. We don't want to be called a lesser mortal. It's not funny.

*laughs* Maybe you should learn what mysandry is before you open your mouth and let your belly rumble, Aidan. Mysandry is hatred and comtempt of men. I neither hate nor have contempt for men. I may not be attracted to them and want them in my knickers but thats quite another matter..

Just let us put to bed this "lesser mortal" phrase which I do not remember using. I do.. and have never at any stage denied I use it.. and hun I intend to continue to use it as I do to father, brother, cousins and friends. Let us consider the context in which I use it.. I use it jocularly among friends in a humourous manner in a way which befits the rivalry of two genders. It is used not to demean and it is not used in any way to disrespect.. it is rather like a husband referring to his wife as "the little woman" or as has happened several times in chat, and even in forums men taking the p*** out of a woman for her driving ability as ocurred when I announced several years ago that I had purchased a car for the first time in my life,, I did not and do consider the hoots of derision by the men in chat that night to be mysogyny.. far from it.. it was fun between a gang of M8s.I do not use it within the text of more serious issues in respect of men because that would be a liberty, and would be quite rightly considered contentious, insulting and mysandrist.

I will also admit to making jokes about the size of men's willies, about their staying power, and about their hygeine in both chat and in occasional threads. This is also invariably meant in the same manner as my lesser mortal term.. it is the equivelant iIsuppose of a man in fun calling me a spoiled brat, a bimbo, a hussy, a clothes horse or a witch as we laugh and jest with each other.. however describing each other in such terms can be taken as an insult in serious conversational terms, but in general when I have used any of these terms, being in jest it they can easily be dismissed as fun between friends. The one thing that possibly I can be gotten on is my reference to the personal hygeine of men, which is often, although not always less than good. This however is not mysandry but merely a personal observation.

If the term "lesser mortal" is the best you can come up with to illustrate my "manhating" then you are on a very very sticky wicket indeed. You will be very hard pressed indeed to find any post in any thread which can be held against me for mysandry.. I do not deny criticising men, and sometimes I may even have criticised them as a gender, but never because I hate them or have contempt for them. Yet I have done the same thing in respect of women and no one can accuse me of mysogyny.

What we do as banter with friends is quite a different thing from carrying on the same manner with a whole gender in serious discussion and debate. In some ways I do see a parallel with the debate on trans people, yet this is an entirely different beast. It is not borne out of hate at all but incredible affection, not in the manner of objectifying men or disrepecting them and considering them less than I am myself.. regarding the debate on trans people, no matter how much protest and derison comes my way on that, I still hold to the views I expressed in the other threads...

I do wish you hadn't raised this on this thread for it is quite the wrong place to do it.. but you have, and I will not reply to any come back on it. I have made my position quite clear as to your allegations of mysandry and indeed that made by Ian. I am neither upset or offended by them. We open our cyber gobs and we are liable to be slapped down and slagged off rightly or wrongly.. none of us sees things quite the same way.. I accept that as part of the risk as well as the fun of these forums.. thats why I rarely get personal and try as hard as I am able to avoid it.. I may get angry and irritated and it shows, but that is not the same thing...

To be a mysandrist, I repeat, one needs to hate men.. I neither hate or have contempt for men as a gender.

[AidanS57]

No one said you were manhating, Darkeyes. What was said was that the phrase is offensive to some of us. And as was pointed out you argue so strongly for the rights of others to say "do not call me..." now you are asked yourself to refrain from the use of the phrase lesser mortal when addressing males on this site. Interesting you seem to think that because I referred to it as a lesbian phrase that I am accusing you of being manhating. I was merely pointing out you completely disregarded the fact Ian called you on it in a thread and then in this thread questioned where he could possibly think there was a feminist issue for him on this site. Is it only when you do not see the offense you do to others that you turn a blind eye?


Sorry I seem to have jacked your post, Ian, but the issue needed addressing or you wouldn't have raised it in the OP.

[ubersmack]

Good luck to you Ian. I hope life gets a little easier for you soon. All I can say (without having to start my own thread) is that you are not the only one whose life is uphill battle atm. Perhaps, it might be uplifting to know your not the only one. I find some solice in that fact. I wish you the very best in your endeavors in RL. May fortunate happenings find thier way to you! :)

[IanBorthwick]

To be a mysandrist, I repeat, one needs to hate men.. I neither hate or have contempt for men as a gender.

The term is Misandroyst, I know because I invented the word. And now I have to poke a deep hole in that assertion.

Number 1, no one has used those terms against you that you held up just now "requiring" a response as juvenile as to start in on name calling.

Number 2, to treat someone misandronystically you merely have to treat men as you have, or speak as you have unprovoked, as though they were less than human or less than what a woman is.

Number 3, you are a bigot because you feel this kind of action is perfectly ok as prejudice towards men is perfectly ok after arguing for a PC treatment of Transgender. Your lines are drawn along the gender bias.

Feminism is sexism, is bigotry and that you cannot see it as what it IS happens to be the meat of the matter. If I was to reverse the statements you have used against men it would immediately create a loud cry against men, even if they did not mean anything derogatory. Fact is that no one in prior times saw anything wrong with their treatment of women that required the rise of the feminist movement and now has become so large and without purpose that it now seeks to promote the rise of women ABOVE men as a natural state and should be put into place even against women's own wishes and intent in life.

My mother is English and I have had to listen to the vocal and written crap since time immemorial, and even a plea when I was on the ground could not stay your hand or foot coming down on me when i was in an emotionally crushed place. So much for the "Gentler Sex" and the "Deeper Emotional" virtues those like you vaunt so highly.

It's in movies, in tv, at home, pushed into schools and men are tired of it. If there was EVER a club opened up to put forth the ideals of masculinism then there would be a cry and hue so loud and long it would shake the world to its core because women would see it as sexism that it is and never let it be, but by the same token they cannot turn that cutting wit and scalpel of justice inwards to see how cankered their cause has become and how oppressive they are in word, manner and deed.

No man has ever put forth an elimination of the female gender, nor reduced them to a separate species, but feminism has done that to man and most specifically asked for our doom as we are the patrons of all harm in the world, thus making it fit and right to poke, jab, stab and vilify us. The greats in feminism now call themselves philosophers as well as feminists in an attempt to gain more credence in the world, and failing. One need only listen for a moment to the lack of science involved as well as illogic banded about to make excuses for our mistreatment and reverse the words to become violently ill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt_0ko4njmc&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcljXIuOwrY&feature=related

Even going so far as to claim there are no such things as battered men when in fact it's far more common and terrifically hushed up, feminists disrupt classes and even created bogus ones at UC Berkley to force a feminocentric point of view down the throats of people who are injured. Watch this video and try not to vomit...for had it been men coming in screaming at a class teaching about and helping to treat women who had been raped or bashed, this would have been screamed about from pillar to post instead of being absorbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qodygTkTUYM&feature=related

We're basted day in and day out with the anti-male because of feminism pushing to make us undermined and feel like there is NO good thing we can be from sneers to slurs to media stereotyping enforced by what the feminist movement have made seem popular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcHQz-R9pro&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRWvebE2CJk&feature=related

But this doesn't just come from media and radical feminists, it comes from schools because it's now in the social doctrine and cannot be dislodged. And as a wise person once said, if you're not a part of the solution you're a part of the problem and all those little catty slurs and innuendos that come unprovoked are being force-fed to each generation because you can't put a cork in it, and what's worse don't see it as needing to be curtailed. But those who have been suffering it have seen it, have understood and tried to intercede. Their reward for intercession was always one of being ostracized or rebuked or both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTNluBtxCS8&feature=related

This comes from the years of bile spewed by folks who, like Fran, see nothing wrong with it at all and encourage the world with the continuation of the degeneration of men. Mary Daly, one prime example, has continued to make women pissed off at men with such gems as:

"And in general, patriarchal culture is necrophilic, fixated on hatred of life and love of death...."

"certainly the female is more appropriate for talking about nurturing life, loving and creativity on every level. If you have to choose between the two, female is obviously better."

"If life is to survive on this planet is there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in the drastic reduction of the population of males."

Many of your words here have been echoes of these sentiments and Mary Daly has herself always held the claim she does not HATE men either, but I ask you which is worse? Hate or Ambivalence? Since hate is the flip side of love, then ambivalence gets MY vote for the worse of the two. Through your words and the feminist words of others we're reduced to the ridiculous.

Even popular sayings have been pushed for so many years they are simply accepted with no thought to the stupidity behind them:

Men can't take pain. Based on what? Because women give birth? Right, and none of them actually take drugs to kill the pain when time comes? That straw-man was blown apart ages ago but men are not allowed to stand up for themselves on it. Fact is we take pain better than women because we are taught to condition ourselves to IGNORE pain as a gender as well as nature gave us a different way of using adrenaline than women because of testosterone. Look it up and be amazed how much more we can handle, even to the effect of ignoring pain for upwards of an hour if it is not catastrophic damage. It's a by product of our evolution as hunters. Seriously, do you honestly believe a successful predator like men would keel over and die from a mild scratch? If you do,then you haven't questioned your dogmatic beliefs, period.

Men have a poor senses of direction: Primary source for this lie? Wives that henpeck their husbands into following their course rather than the one they feel is right and then they do not wish to be embarrassed by the fact they listened to their wife getting them lost and having it be known by a stranger. Once again, how successful as a hunter can a man be if he cannot find his way anywhere?

Men are not as watchful of children: and this one blew my mind as I heard it repeatedly from mothers unable to track their own kids in places where I worked or parks I took my son to. Source of the myth? Unknown. But in all those given situations I was tracking my own son or business at hand and able to assist mothers who'd lost their child find their own. Another hunter trait along with improved motion visuals and visual memory retention mandatory to be a prime predator.

There are more of these myths, more of this crap than I care to respond to, more than I wanted to even look at. But you want to call yourself innocent of these things is laughable, Fran. I like you, I like your pacifism, I love your wit on some things.... but you making the call on your own innocence is like every defendant being their own judge and jury.

Anyway, sorry if this offends some people, but I've been swallowing the bile from a lot of the feminists here for a long time without more than a mild rebuke and I never fell back on chauvinistic rhetoric. Your excuses are laid bare here if you choose to look, and I pray you will.

From my earliest times I cannot recall a time when females didn't hit me with this. It's sad and sickening to hear from your own mother as you lie on a bed with your ankle swollen to the size of your calf that men can't take pain as a nurse roughly manhandles your leg into a half-cast and all I did was grit my teeth. Or be told that men are all pigs and incapable of emotions like women, or that men are inherently unfaithful when science has proven that men adapted to female infidelity with hunter-killer sperm to kill the possible progeny from a rival the female bedded, not the other way around. And the excuse that men are rapists, or it's bred into us is another Mary Daly special for which I'd love to see her downed by firing squad for.

The truth is I don't have to take that shit anymore, and I've stayed silent long enough. Don't like reality? Tough shit. We all have to live in the real world in the end.

And I think I dwell on a little more than most. We all started in the womb as female...then those of us born male became something more...

Peace Out

[darkeyes]

*Scratches head in bewilderment*

[Hephaestion]

When Darkeyes says the 'lesser mortal' please note that there are two contextual inducements:

1) This is classic Brit jocular understatment

2) If one has ever witnessed the biological miracle of birth (and its course, both pre- and post- parturition) then one can safely assume that the female of the species is indeed a little bit more special.

We in the UK are comfortable with what is known as gallows humour. This is possibly apposite today the way life is proceeding, unless one is a banker of course. Many of us have adopted as our motto "Life's a bitch and then you die"; this sounds as though we have borrowed it from the USA.

Below is typical humour from Patrick Wright, 1985. Affairs of the Heart. Heinemann Press.

[Realist]

Shit! That's a cheerful little cartoon, Hep!!

Depressing....is 7 am too early to begin drinking?

[CuddlyKate]

The term is Misandroyst, I know because I invented the word. And now I have to poke a deep hole in that assertion.

Number 1, no one has used those terms against you that you held up just now "requiring" a response as juvenile as to start in on name calling.

Number 2, to treat someone misandronystically you merely have to treat men as you have, or speak as you have unprovoked, as though they were less than human or less than what a woman is.

Number 3, you are a bigot because you feel this kind of action is perfectly ok as prejudice towards men is perfectly ok after arguing for a PC treatment of Transgender. Your lines are drawn along the gender bias.

Feminism is sexism, is bigotry and that you cannot see it as what it IS happens to be the meat of the matter. If I was to reverse the statements you have used against men it would immediately create a loud cry against men, even if they did not mean anything derogatory. Fact is that no one in prior times saw anything wrong with their treatment of women that required the rise of the feminist movement and now has become so large and without purpose that it now seeks to promote the rise of women ABOVE men as a natural state and should be put into place even against women's own wishes and intent in life.

My mother is English and I have had to listen to the vocal and written crap since time immemorial, and even a plea when I was on the ground could not stay your hand or foot coming down on me when i was in an emotionally crushed place. So much for the "Gentler Sex" and the "Deeper Emotional" virtues those like you vaunt so highly.

It's in movies, in tv, at home, pushed into schools and men are tired of it. If there was EVER a club opened up to put forth the ideals of masculinism then there would be a cry and hue so loud and long it would shake the world to its core because women would see it as sexism that it is and never let it be, but by the same token they cannot turn that cutting wit and scalpel of justice inwards to see how cankered their cause has become and how oppressive they are in word, manner and deed.

No man has ever put forth an elimination of the female gender, nor reduced them to a separate species, but feminism has done that to man and most specifically asked for our doom as we are the patrons of all harm in the world, thus making it fit and right to poke, jab, stab and vilify us. The greats in feminism now call themselves philosophers as well as feminists in an attempt to gain more credence in the world, and failing. One need only listen for a moment to the lack of science involved as well as illogic banded about to make excuses for our mistreatment and reverse the words to become violently ill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt_0ko4njmc&feature=fvw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcljXIuOwrY&feature=related

Even going so far as to claim there are no such things as battered men when in fact it's far more common and terrifically hushed up, feminists disrupt classes and even created bogus ones at UC Berkley to force a feminocentric point of view down the throats of people who are injured. Watch this video and try not to vomit...for had it been men coming in screaming at a class teaching about and helping to treat women who had been raped or bashed, this would have been screamed about from pillar to post instead of being absorbed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qodygTkTUYM&feature=related

We're basted day in and day out with the anti-male because of feminism pushing to make us undermined and feel like there is NO good thing we can be from sneers to slurs to media stereotyping enforced by what the feminist movement have made seem popular.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcHQz-R9pro&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRWvebE2CJk&feature=related

But this doesn't just come from media and radical feminists, it comes from schools because it's now in the social doctrine and cannot be dislodged. And as a wise person once said, if you're not a part of the solution you're a part of the problem and all those little catty slurs and innuendos that come unprovoked are being force-fed to each generation because you can't put a cork in it, and what's worse don't see it as needing to be curtailed. But those who have been suffering it have seen it, have understood and tried to intercede. Their reward for intercession was always one of being ostracized or rebuked or both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTNluBtxCS8&feature=related

This comes from the years of bile spewed by folks who, like Fran, see nothing wrong with it at all and encourage the world with the continuation of the degeneration of men. Mary Daly, one prime example, has continued to make women pissed off at men with such gems as:

"And in general, patriarchal culture is necrophilic, fixated on hatred of life and love of death...."

"certainly the female is more appropriate for talking about nurturing life, loving and creativity on every level. If you have to choose between the two, female is obviously better."

"If life is to survive on this planet is there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in the drastic reduction of the population of males."

Many of your words here have been echoes of these sentiments and Mary Daly has herself always held the claim she does not HATE men either, but I ask you which is worse? Hate or Ambivalence? Since hate is the flip side of love, then ambivalence gets MY vote for the worse of the two. Through your words and the feminist words of others we're reduced to the ridiculous.

Even popular sayings have been pushed for so many years they are simply accepted with no thought to the stupidity behind them:

Men can't take pain. Based on what? Because women give birth? Right, and none of them actually take drugs to kill the pain when time comes? That straw-man was blown apart ages ago but men are not allowed to stand up for themselves on it. Fact is we take pain better than women because we are taught to condition ourselves to IGNORE pain as a gender as well as nature gave us a different way of using adrenaline than women because of testosterone. Look it up and be amazed how much more we can handle, even to the effect of ignoring pain for upwards of an hour if it is not catastrophic damage. It's a by product of our evolution as hunters. Seriously, do you honestly believe a successful predator like men would keel over and die from a mild scratch? If you do,then you haven't questioned your dogmatic beliefs, period.

Men have a poor senses of direction: Primary source for this lie? Wives that henpeck their husbands into following their course rather than the one they feel is right and then they do not wish to be embarrassed by the fact they listened to their wife getting them lost and having it be known by a stranger. Once again, how successful as a hunter can a man be if he cannot find his way anywhere?

Men are not as watchful of children: and this one blew my mind as I heard it repeatedly from mothers unable to track their own kids in places where I worked or parks I took my son to. Source of the myth? Unknown. But in all those given situations I was tracking my own son or business at hand and able to assist mothers who'd lost their child find their own. Another hunter trait along with improved motion visuals and visual memory retention mandatory to be a prime predator.

There are more of these myths, more of this crap than I care to respond to, more than I wanted to even look at. But you want to call yourself innocent of these things is laughable, Fran. I like you, I like your pacifism, I love your wit on some things.... but you making the call on your own innocence is like every defendant being their own judge and jury.

Anyway, sorry if this offends some people, but I've been swallowing the bile from a lot of the feminists here for a long time without more than a mild rebuke and I never fell back on chauvinistic rhetoric. Your excuses are laid bare here if you choose to look, and I pray you will.

From my earliest times I cannot recall a time when females didn't hit me with this. It's sad and sickening to hear from your own mother as you lie on a bed with your ankle swollen to the size of your calf that men can't take pain as a nurse roughly manhandles your leg into a half-cast and all I did was grit my teeth. Or be told that men are all pigs and incapable of emotions like women, or that men are inherently unfaithful when science has proven that men adapted to female infidelity with hunter-killer sperm to kill the possible progeny from a rival the female bedded, not the other way around. And the excuse that men are rapists, or it's bred into us is another Mary Daly special for which I'd love to see her downed by firing squad for.

The truth is I don't have to take that shit anymore, and I've stayed silent long enough. Don't like reality? Tough shit. We all have to live in the real world in the end.

And I think I dwell on a little more than most. We all started in the womb as female...then those of us born male became something more...

Peace Out

Ian, this tirade of hysterical claptrap tells us more about your mysogyny than it ever does about my partner's alleged mysandry. I fail to recognise her in anything you say and you misrepresent quite disgracefully and unashamedly what she thinks and believes. Nothing she has ever written comes close to the rubbish you have had the audacity to print here.

Frances may be a radical feminist but she has never argued for the superiority of women and has never claimed superiority. Her feminism is about eliminating the inequalities which exist between man and woman whichever sex had a legal or social advantage, and as an example she was actively arguing and campaigning for the equalisation of the pension age in this country for both sexes by bringing the male pension age down to the same as that of women - from 65 to 60. That governments have decided on quite another tack and are in the process of raising the age of women upwards (as well as men's) in their equality drive up to 67 has not altered her position. There are other areas where she has argued for men to be given the same consideration as women and be provided with the same rights. The right to paternity leave on the same basis as a mother receives maternity from work for instance.

If you wish to criticise radical feminists, and Frances would be the first to admit that among their numbers are some, even many who are bigoted, then I suggest you take it out on them in an honest and less mysogynistic manner, and not take it out on one who is no mysandrist and argues for and believes in equality for all in our world no matter their sex. I think you need to look at yourself not my partner when criticising bigotry.

[darkeyes]

Chill, Kate.. I can fight my own battles in my own time in my own way taking all things into consideration. Lix n stuff. :)

[Hephaestion]

Shit! That's a cheerful little cartoon, Hep!!

Depressing....is 7 am too early to begin drinking?

Haven't you spotted that his date is bored? Almost certainly she's heard it all before and cannot believe her luck.

[IanBorthwick]

Ian, this tirade of hysterical claptrap tells us more Blah blah blah...

You fail at a come back, thanks for proving my point. You not only didn't follow any of the links to anything I brought up, you showed yourself to be complicit in the problem because you don't see yourself as fallible and *I* must be the loon because your shit cannot possibly stink. Seen it, been there, done that, got the bruises to prove it. And once again it's MISANDRONY, lol.

Gallows Humor-allows humor is a type of humor that arises from stressful, traumatic, or life-threatening situations; often in circumstances such that death is perceived as impending and unavoidable. It is similar to black comedy but differs in that it is made by the person affected.

Not applicable, Hep, I know you want to rise to her defense, but follow my links and you'll know this doesn't apply...at all. Dark humor is not denigrating or bigoted, not by definition or use. What you're talking about is ingrained defamation. It's demeaning, more so to the person delivering it than they know, but if they seem immune to the embarrassment they should feel for being a sexist then nothing can be done. I point to the defense of the indefensible above by opinion rather than fact.

Misogynist:a misanthrope who dislikes women in particular

Oppressed:laden: burdened psychologically or mentally; "laden with grief"

Only someone who is deeply in denial will confuse these two, for I am the latter and not the former. This mistake is a classic, and one that harkens back to the days when the suffragette movement was new and they were called by names other than oppressed. Over a century later they have traded places with men and see it as their right. Your claim is neither new nor witty, as your attempt to attack me for pointing out the truth. And what I have pointed out is nothing by comparison to the demeaning crap you toss on men and myself, and the things we've been forced to carry.

Someone from your own country has said it best and put it down in words you cannot deny but you only lack the courage to look:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcljXIuOwrY&feature=related

My quotes from feminists in the world above are just a smattering of what they have and continue to say, the pushing of men down is the sole aim left in the feminist movement and is undeniable. Once achieving their aims, now the only thing left is to continue pushing men down as a gender to "keep us in our place" as has become the norm. You don't like it, take it up with your movement.

Take this piece of claptrap written and sent in to a feminist newsletter:

I love my sons—they’re funny, sweet, and full of surprises. But I don’t understand how a species incapable of feeding themselves—much less hitting the toilet—ever came to rule the planet.

Last week as I watched the 44th male take possession of the most powerful position in the world, I had to ask myself how men ever came to be in charge of the world. How did they surpass women in status, power, and wealth? I don’t hate men, I live with far too many of them to survive day-to-day harboring such feelings. I just know that women are the more capable sex. As early as the age of two, girls leave boys standing bewildered in their dust as they speed along the social, emotional, and intellectual racecourse of life.

I am not dealing with Einstein here, just regular boys, and besides, I bet Einstein had his mother tying his shoes for him until he was in college.

My daughter, Cleo, was self-sufficient and independent from the time she could walk; my boys can't take a piss without my help, and even then they can’t manage to get it in the toilet bowl. My boys have been slow to walk and talk, impossible to potty-train, and refused to give up breast-feeding. I had none of these problems with my daughter. When Cleo was five, I came home exhausted from work and fell asleep on the sofa. I opened my bleary eyes to find her eating pizza.

“Where did you get that?” I asked.

“I called Domino’s.”

“Where did you get the money?”

“Your purse.”

“Did you tip?”

“Twenty percent.”

I can’t imagine any of my boys, much less my husband, taking such proactive measures against personal hunger.

Now with an article filled with this much venom and BS, you can't debunk it because it's simply not in need of it. If you believe this then there is simply no way to wake you out of the dream state you've climbed in to.But imagine if *I* had written it and then reverse all the gender roles from men to women or women to men and it would have been denounced and screamed at.

Here I will quote directly from the author of the anti-feminist article:

"It is sad that people cannot take the correct message from all of our P.C. madness by assuming the attitude that prejudice against any group of people is not a good thing. Instead, people have absorbed the real meaning of P.C. which is a culturally Marxist class battle attitude towards groups of people who are the haves and other groups which are have-nots, and the redistribution of power between the groups. In this way Laura Bennett’s article is politically correct, women are a protected group and men are deemed as a legitimate target of ire as a group with too much power that needs to be taken from them, either by legislation or through the whip of words. This is why many who are on the pro men’s rights side of the fence are angry, look at the kind of bigotry we have to deal with here.

I will also say that it is a truth that I have observed that girls mature before boys do, both mentally and physically, this fazes me not since men and women are not the same which is a truth that does not send me into paroxysm's of despair like it does to the radical feminist. However, young women who have been raised on the radical feminist memes that men are essentially big clowns find that such notions are swept aside by the harsh mistress of reality as they enter careers where men turn out to be ambitious, resourceful and competitive. How does Laura Bennett figure that young immature boys will usually be the ones ruling the world? Answer: They grow up."

The very basis of Feminism is bigotry, there is simply no way around it and the modern feminism has become and will continue to be a means of removing a level field in favor of the female for the sake of femininity rather than equality. Notice I said modern, because in the past it was necessary in order to achieve that end, one experts have shouted far and wide as Mission Achieved. It can only continue by the invention of oppression in the world when in fact it is itself an oppressive force that is accepted for Political Correctness and a desire not to seem bigoted themselves, IE men take it because we don't want to be called, laughably, a misogynist. I don't care, myself, and I have taken it in silence which proves my thick skin, but Feminism is now a creation of female fascism, by showing it for what it really is, I am suddenly become the bad guy for being sick of having become yoked behind layers of bad treatment and calling the actions out for what they are.

I don't have to pull punches or work hard to show it for what it is. Merely being called a woman hater rather than point by point refuted, because it cannot be done, shows it for what it is and has become.

[darkeyes]

I don't know what I've done to be so deserving of such a vituperative rant... I have found it both upsetting and very hurtful because it is so personal, unnecessary and untruthful. To be honest I was fucking enraged because it is so innaccurate. Nothing you have said can be considered remotely accurate and it seems I am to be the proxy victim for things which have happened in your past, inflicted upon you by people of which I know nothing. Your latest post compounds the offence and makes you look even more mysoginistic than you did in the first instance.

I have outlined where I stand on the subject of feminism and none of the things you you claim I am or stand for is in any way accurate. I have no intention of bandying words with you about something which is so plainly wrong and do not wish to exacerbate your already very heightened sense of injustice and oppression. I could sit down, take a good few hours and rip into shreds every word you said and claim you make, including commenting upon the links you provided and quote chapter and verse where you are wrong and why. Would it do any good? No.. why? Because you do not read and digest accurately for whetever reason what people say to you.. certainly not what I say to you, and evidently not Kate.. so be it.. something and/or someone has made you as you are and think as you do but it certainly isnt me, so why I am your target is mystifying. Nothing that I or anyone else says will change you.

I think it best we end this pointless discussion and debate before both of us say things we may regret.. you have already said quite enough for the two of us and damaged yourself in the process. Some day I hope you are able to reconsider what you think of me, but doubt now is the time and this certainly is not the place.

Stay on site or leave I still wish you well and if I am angry, really I bear you no ill will. There is obviously an underlying reason why you have acted and spoken as you have and I'm sorry for that. But I doubt that underlying reason really has very much too do with me or my feminist beliefs. Your near hysteria makes that quite clear.... and if that sounds dismissive, forgive me, for it is meant to be just that, because it is precisely how I feel at this moment in time.

Life is too short to be bitter, Ian. Too short to hate. That is why I may get angry very easily, and frustrated, but so very seldom am bitter and even more rarely hate.

[NotLostJustWandering]

Just let us put to bed this "lesser mortal" phrase which I do not remember using. I do.. and have never at any stage denied I use it.. and hun I intend to continue to use it as I do to father, brother, cousins and friends. Let us consider the context in which I use it..


In an open forum used by men as well as women.



I use it jocularly among friends in a humourous manner in a way which befits the rivalry of two genders.


Befitting a mentality that casts the genders as rivals.



It is used not to demean and it is not used in any way to disrespect..


Oh, is "lesser" a positive word in Scottish slang?




it is rather like a husband referring to his wife as "the little woman" or as has happened several times in chat, and even in forums men taking the p*** out of a woman for her driving ability as ocurred when I announced several years ago that I had purchased a car for the first time in my life,, I did not and do consider the hoots of derision by the men in chat that night to be mysogyny.. far from it.. it was fun between a gang of M8s.I do not use it within the text of more serious issues in respect of men because that would be a liberty, and would be quite rightly considered contentious, insulting and mysandrist.

Oh, so if we casually drop demeaning remarks towards women or TG people in posts that "are only meant in fun", you are not going to march in with the offensive speech platitudes anymore?



I will also admit to making jokes about the size of men's willies, about their staying power, and about their hygeine in both chat and in occasional threads. This is also invariably meant in the same manner as my lesser mortal term..


Do you like the taste of your own foot?



it is the equivelant iIsuppose of a man in fun calling me a spoiled brat, a bimbo, a hussy, a clothes horse or a witch as we laugh and jest with each other..

No, it's the equivalent of a man calling all women by these terms.



however describing each other in such terms can be taken as an insult in serious conversational terms, but in general when I have used any of these terms, being in jest it they can easily be dismissed as fun between friends. The one thing that possibly I can be gotten on is my reference to the personal hygeine of men, which is often, although not always less than good. This however is not mysandry but merely a personal observation.


Careful on the ankle, dear. You might break your teeth...



If the term "lesser mortal" is the best you can come up with to illustrate my "manhating" then you are on a very very sticky wicket indeed.


I seem to remember something about men's personal hygiene, their staying power and the size of their willies...


You will be very hard pressed indeed to find any post in any thread which can be held against me for mysandry..


Maybe more effort than I am willing to exert on the matter. My memory is good enough for me. Anyway, you are providing enough evidence yourself in this very post.



I do not deny criticising men, and sometimes I may even have criticised them as a gender, but never because I hate them or have contempt for them. Yet I have done the same thing in respect of women


Now my memory fails me. When have you mocked women across the board for perceived shortcomings in their anatomies or hygiene?



What we do as banter with friends is quite a different thing from carrying on the same manner with a whole gender in serious discussion and debate.


Herein comes the difference between the ideology you identify with and the true nature you reveal when you are "bantering."




In some ways I do see a parallel with the debate on trans people, yet this is an entirely different beast. It is not borne out of hate at all but incredible affection, not in the manner of objectifying men or disrepecting them and considering them less than I am myself.. regarding the debate on trans people, no matter how much protest and derison comes my way on that, I still hold to the views I expressed in the other threads...


And your double standard is obvious.

[Hephaestion]

Ian

I gave a real explanation for the 'lesser mortals' label.

Even if you have encountered the kind of extreme stance that you complain of, just because Darkeyes has settled with another lady doesn't make her a misandryst (Suggest one or two too many letters in your construction of the word).

mis[os] (=hate) + andr[as] (=male) - I have connections

From the periphery, it seems that you are upset about whole lot of things and Darkeyes has been a catalyst in venting your feelings rather than either causing your upset or epitomising its origins.

She can be a bit of a live wire. However, give me a woman with fiery temper, storms in her eyes and a double edged tongue in preference to a floor wiping slave any day.

I'll wait patiently until she now bites my head off for offering any support.

[Pasadenacpl2]

1. I have always taken Fran's use of "lesser mortal" to be tongue in cheek. I considered context. I have never truly taken offense by it. Apparently context is everything.

2. I find it ironic that she would use that as a defense, however, considering her stance in other threads regarding the use of the word tranny, even when not in a context that was meant to be offensive. Because, apparently, context doesn't matter.

Darkeyes: having her cake and eating it too since 1999.

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

Atiq - may I suggest that you are barking up the wrong tree.

There are differences in the comprehensions of UK and American English speakers.

Famous war time communication - 'it's getting a bit sticky here'

USA interpretation - 'nothing we cannot handle'
UK meaning - 'we are about to be overun and killed send help NOW'

[NotLostJustWandering]

Heph: I am familiar with UK humor. There are a lot more Brits living here than Americans. My roommate is one of them. I've always liked British humor; you people even spell the word funny.

I can't take Fran's repeated jabs at men as good-natured fun. It is a poor argument that a failure to appreciate understated humor would lead one to make TOO MUCH of a little thing. I find her "jokes" offensive both as a man and as one who truly loves and adores men. It hasn't been annoying enough for me to comment on, but since it has been brought up and I see people here denying it, I have to add my voice to the others observing it here and privately. It seems particularly worthy of comment as Fran has been taking Marie's side in the battle against language they deem offensive.

[jem_is_bi]

All this is one of the strangest conversations that I have seen on this site.

Am I to be concerned that lesbians are not impressed by men or gay guys are not impressed by women?
Should I be much more concerned about how heterosexuals actually do get to legally treat us as second class or worse?
Is it really the same thing?

[Hephaestion]

Heph: I am familiar with UK humor. There are a lot more Brits living here than Americans. My roommate is one of them. I've always liked British humor; you people even spell the word funny.

I can't take Fran's repeated jabs at men as good-natured fun. It is a poor argument that a failure to appreciate understated humor would lead one to make TOO MUCH of a little thing. I find her "jokes" offensive both as a man and as one who truly loves and adores men. It hasn't been annoying enough for me to comment on, but since it has been brought up and I see people here denying it, I have to add my voice to the others observing it here and privately. It seems particularly worthy of comment as Fran has been taking Marie's side in the battle against language they deem offensive.


"....I've always liked British humor; you people even spell the word funny...."

I am not sure what this phrase may be classified as. I think that I shall opt for a degree of tautology. Be careful young man lest I strike a manly pose and unfurl a Union Flag upon you. NB- We are awaiting words to what everyone would wish the real national anthem to be (them tune to 'The Archers' radio series - see Billy Conolly)

I can see both points of view and suggest that the humo(u)r is highly relevant. Misunderstandings are so easy to encounter.

HHGTTG: "..... It is of course well known that careless talk costs lives, but the full scale of the problem is not always appreciated. For instance, at the very moment that Arthur Dent said "I wouldn't want to go anywhere without my wonderful towel," a freak wormhole opened up in the fabric of the space-time continuum and carried his words far far back in time across almost infinite reaches of space to a distant Galaxy where strange and warlike beings were poised on the brink of frightful interstellar battle. The two opposing leaders, resplendent in their black jewelled battle shorts, were meeting for the last time, when, a dreadful silence fell, and, at that very moment, the words, "I wouldn't want to go anywhere without my wonderful towel" drifted across the conference table. Unfortunately, in their native tongue, this was the most appalling insult imaginable, so the two opposing battle fleets decided to settle their few remaining differences in order to launch a joint attack on our galaxy, now positively identified as the source of the offending remark. For thousands of years the mighty starships tore across the empty wastes of space and finally dived screaming on to the planet Earth - where, due to a terrible miscalculation of scale, the entire battle fleet was accidentally swallowed by a small dog. Those who study the complex interplay of cause and effect in the history of the Universe say that this sort of thing is going on all the time.
...."


Jem makes a serious point above; I urge that we do not polarize in this fashion.

[darkeyes]

Heph: I am familiar with UK humor. There are a lot more Brits living here than Americans. My roommate is one of them. I've always liked British humor; you people even spell the word funny.

I can't take Fran's repeated jabs at men as good-natured fun. It is a poor argument that a failure to appreciate understated humor would lead one to make TOO MUCH of a little thing. I find her "jokes" offensive both as a man and as one who truly loves and adores men. It hasn't been annoying enough for me to comment on, but since it has been brought up and I see people here denying it, I have to add my voice to the others observing it here and privately. It seems particularly worthy of comment as Fran has been taking Marie's side in the battle against language they deem offensive.

I make just one comment on this Atiq.. u may know and like British humour, but I doubt you would like to live here if that is your attitude. Cos 90% of us share it.. it is earthy and irreverent, it is no respecter of the person but it is not in itself disprepectful.. and god forbid it ever changes.. there is a difference in my book, between use of humour and how we express ourselves when referring to other human beings.. humour does not always travel it seems. I doubt you would like some of our female comedians.. for compared to them I am but a rank amateur when it comes to the matter of humour.. come to think of it.. that many of our men ones..

[Hephaestion]

Yet another member from the USA misunderstands a common endearing English term for the male of the species. Darkeyes does not hate men and it is silly to draw such inference.

Isn't the USA with its way of thinking the same place that tried to market e.g. the GM Nova to the Spanish speaking nations and latterly the 'Spastic Transformer with Stunticons' in the UK?

[_Joe_]

With all the crap on the boards and all the things people are bickering about in quite a nasty fashion, where no one seems to listen and everyone seems to be shouting...where I see we're willingly giving up freedoms for safety and blowing our own rights and the rights of others....and then the fact that I can't have a simple chat with anyone anymore even in real life. I mean seriously folks, I have to avoid a ton of crap even things in my own life that has been hurting me.

This past year has been the suckiest of my adult life and all i wanted out of it was a little less crap. I got it in spades, from nearly dying, to being tossed from my niece and nephew's life, to then trying to get in touch with friends who want to treat me like an idiot. My car gets vandalized because I drive an SUV to do demos in health food stores and the patrons find it offensive to their sensibilities, and then the good old ridden out on a rail from my home because the person who bought it has the cash to drive me out despite poisoning me and nearly killing me this year of a stroke. And I am still dealing with the after effects.

Then a lady smashes through my car and gets away with paying the minimum to the insurance and doesn't even get me back up and running, I lose work because of it, and then get kicked when I am down several times here.

Yeah it all sounds random, but I have to say that I'm not really hot for this stuff anymore. And most especially I am sick of being the most educated person I know being called stupid by people who don't even know the facts, and these are supposed to be friends of mine.

Or suffering the slings of Sexism couched in feminist bullshit because it's accepted in modern society and even encouraged.

Or even having creeps trail me...

I now know why, in all honesty, there were hermits.

Without the comic to bring me back, I doubt I will. Not that anyone is gonna give a shit, or the sexism(read bigoted feminist bullshit) will stop, or any of the PC Police and PC rebels are going to stop taking swings at each other here, or any of you will wonder "Who the hell was that lurking freak who sang and no one cared..."

The only one who cared to know who I am, you all have given crap to..and those who have shown they cared I appreciate your concern. But I'm out. I don't know if I can ever bring myself back here, but you never know....

But who gives a damn, right? It's only me...

Life has given me lemons alot lately, and I know what you mean. I'm sorry I didn't get to know you better.

[elian]

I'm sorry things aren't going well Ian, I hope they get better soon!

[Hephaestion]

Same here Ian. Good luck.