Political correctness

[MarieDelta]

Political correctness: (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term which denotes language, ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, disability, and age-related contexts. In current usage, the term is primarily pejorative,[1][2] while the term politically incorrect has been used as an implicitly positive self-description. Examples of the latter include the conservative Politically Incorrect Guides published by the Regnery editorial house[3] and the television talk show Politically Incorrect. In these cases, the term politically incorrect connotes language, ideas, and behavior unconstrained by a perceived orthodoxy or by concerns about offending or expressing bias regarding various groups of people.


Why is it that certain people see political correctness as something that constrains free speech?

Didnt political correctness used to be simply called "manners"?

I see the term used by people who want the right to call people what ever they damn well please, or by those who lack respect.

It seems to be saying "I want the right to refer to you as a { "cripple" , "dyke", "fag", "spic", "wop", "nigger", and yes, "tranny"} without regard for your feelings on the matter"

Because isnt that what manners are? Simple respect for each other?

Seriously I wouldn't go out with someone who didnt show me some measure of respect, would you?

[slipnslide]

I don't think political correctness equates to manners.

Manners tell me to say please and thank you.

Political correctness tells an organization to rank race higher than merit during hiring because their workforce should better reflect societal demographics.

Political correctness is bigger. It's institutional, and societal and seeks to achieve some imagined state where everything is fair and even.

[DuckiesDarling]

Found a pic...

[Long Duck Dong]

PC is more than removing free speech.... PC is removing aspects of human behievour that extend beyond personal offence and tries to dictate the terms of conduct for others as well

PC is when we remove terms like * LGBT * from a UN document and replace it with a PC term that covers everybody equally.... and it is complained about....

PC is when we remove the ability to refer to minority groups in regards to social issues because the reference to the issues, is regarded as racist, sexist, ageist and all the other PC excuses we can use to argue....

PC is when we try to structure a world around what we believe while we forget that there are other people in the world as well and we try and tell them that they must confirm to what we think.....

PC is when we take offence at what others may say or do, when it is not directed, aim or refering to us as a person, and we make it a personal issue and agenda....and seek to remove the rights of others to use the terms themselves,.......

if we object to the usage of terms, we should not use them to refer to others, but we should not tell others they can not.... as then we end up removing the right of others to refer to themselves and others by the same terms.......

manners are respecting a peoples PoV and forms of expression...and respecting others feelings.... hence I do not refer to you, marie as a tranny, but my friends that refer to themselves as the " trannie grannies " I refer to as trannies.... in the same way they call me " auntie and ye olde drag queen "

I was brought up to respect others... including their desire to express themselves, regardless if I agree with it or not..... and to say please and thank you and not act in a insulting and degrading manner to others, with direct and offensive insults and remarks.....
so unless my friends say otherwise to me, they will always be the " trannie grannies " to me, I will always refer to them as " trannie grannies " and I will always see them as the gender they are

[MarieDelta]

I don't think political correctness equates to manners.

Manners tell me to say please and thank you.

Political correctness tells an organization to rank race higher than merit during hiring because their workforce should better reflect societal demographics.

Political correctness is bigger. It's institutional, and societal and seeks to achieve some imagined state where everything is fair and even.

That isn’t how I see it being used.

In an ideal society, why shouldn’t we treat each other with respect for who they are?

You are equating politically correctness with affirmative action. Is that truly the case? Or is it that political correctness is associated with affirmative action because affirmative action has to do with things like race and differing abilities?

Which gets back to the question, why shouldn't things be as fair as we can make them? Isn’t fair play a good thing? All things being equal don’t we want everyone to have the same chance at a job regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation, or gender identity?

I still fail to see how referring to someone as what they would prefer rather than what you would prefer to call them makes us a better, freer, society.

[MarieDelta]

PC is more than removing free speech.... PC is removing aspects of human behievour that extend beyond personal offence and tries to dictate the terms of conduct for others as well

PC is when we remove terms like * LGBT * from a UN document and replace it with a PC term that covers everybody equally.... and it is complained about....

PC is when we remove the ability to refer to minority groups in regards to social issues because the reference to the issues, is regarded as racist, sexist, ageist and all the other PC excuses we can use to argue....

PC is when we try to structure a world around what we believe while we forget that there are other people in the world as well and we try and tell them that they must confirm to what we think.....

PC is when we take offence at what others may say or do, when it is not directed, aim or refering to us as a person, and we make it a personal issue and agenda....and seek to remove the rights of others to use the terms themselves,.......

if we object to the usage of terms, we should not use them to refer to others, but we should not tell others they can not.... as then we end up removing the right of others to refer to themselves and others by the same terms.......

manners are respecting a peoples PoV and forms of expression...and respecting others feelings.... hence I do not refer to you, marie as a tranny, but my friends that refer to themselves as the " trannie grannies " I refer to as trannies.... in the same way they call me " auntie and ye olde drag queen "

I was brought up to respect others... including their desire to express themselves, regardless if I agree with it or not..... and to say please and thank you and not act in a insulting and degrading manner to others, with direct and offensive insults and remarks.....
so unless my friends say otherwise to me, they will always be the " trannie grannies " to me, I will always refer to them as " trannie grannies " and I will always see them as the gender they are

See I dont care how others refer to themselves, but if you are reffering to me, or those like me, please show me some respect. Especially in a public forrum.

If you want to call yourself the "bat shit crazy sheep fucker man from mars" I dont really care. But please dont use those terms to refer to me, or those like me, especially if you are an outsider to my group and / or not my friend.

[DuckiesDarling]

Marie, I love ya honey, but no one referred to you as a tranny. You took offense to someone using a term and that is your right but you have just said you do not care what others refer to themselves or have their friends refer to them as, so why the thread at all?

It's like black people calling each other "nigger" but let one white person call a person of color by that term and it's considered racist. Even if nothing racial is meant by it.

There are a lot of dirty little words in this world but are they actually dirty or did we make them dirty with connotations? Like in the UK a faggot is a cigarette, it's also a bundle of sticks the world round. Yet anytime it's said we automatically assume it's referring to a gay individual.

There is a time to war and there is a time to just try and figure out if offense was meant personally.

[coyotedude]

One more time: Political correctness is largely a myth.

It is a myth that is largely perpetuated by those who are uncomfortable being called out for their own willful ignorance.

This myth is a convenient scapegoat for those people who cannot otherwise justify their attitudes and behaviors.

This myth is used to demean and censor those who are offended by certain words and actions.

Even when political correctness does occur in real life, it is typically blown out of proportion and taken out of context to score political points by those who have little interest in common manners and respect for their fellow human beings.

I have very little patience for those who play the "PC" card to justify their bigotry and bad attitudes.

You have the right to be an asshole. But I have the right to call you on it.

Peace

[MarieDelta]

Marie, I love ya honey, but no one referred to you as a tranny. You took offense to someone using a term and that is your right but you have just said you do not care what others refer to themselves or have their friends refer to them as, so why the thread at all?

It's like black people calling each other "nigger" but let one white person call a person of color by that term and it's considered racist. Even if nothing racial is meant by it.

There are a lot of dirty little words in this world but are they actually dirty or did we make them dirty with connotations? Like in the UK a faggot is a cigarette, it's also a bundle of sticks the world round. Yet anytime it's said we automatically assume it's referring to a gay individual.

There is a time to war and there is a time to just try and figure out if offense was meant personally.

The reason a gay man is called a "faggot". You know during the inquisition that they used to burn witches, well it used to happed to gay men, too. Although they didnt tie them to stake, they just tied them up and burned them like a bundle of sticks, thus a gay man was just a "faggot".




One more time: Political correctness is largely a myth.

It is a myth that is largely perpetuated by those who are uncomfortable being called out for their own willful ignorance.

This myth is a convenient scapegoat for those people who cannot otherwise justify their attitudes and behaviors.

This myth is used to demean and censor those who are offended by certain words and actions.

Even when political correctness does occur in real life, it is typically blown out of proportion and taken out of context to score political points by those who have little interest in common manners and respect for their fellow human beings.

I have very little patience for those who play the "PC" card to justify their bigotry and bad attitudes.

You have the right to be an asshole. But I have the right to call you on it.

Peace

This has been my experience as well.

[Drkluvtheory99]

for me i really dont care words are words. If i correct someone once that should be it. If theyu continue to bother me with there words I dont need to be around them. I need to remember that people grow up and are around different ways to communicate and different words. So what i find wrong isnt wrong to them whether it is PC or not. Different folks different strokes. Not everyone is around PC or "manners" That is why there is no Normal and no one is really a barbarian or uncivilized as well.

[Long Duck Dong]

The reason a gay man is called a "faggot". You know during the inquisition that they used to burn witches, well it used to happed to gay men, too. Although they didnt tie them to stake, they just tied them up and burned them like a bundle of sticks, thus a gay man was just a "faggot".


there is no historical evidence to support the belief that any man was burnt at the stake for being gay and no connection to gay males being called faggots.... its something the LGBT community started as a misquided belief

the term faggot when applied to gay males started in the 19th century, and it is believed the first mention of faggot pertaining to gay males, was in a book....
its a bit like the bible condemning homosexuality... that only appeared in the first king james version of the bible, not the dead sea scrolls, like people like to think......

[ubersmack]

Well Marie, these people have quite the arguement as I see it. You have failed to present a fact as to why everyone in your thread is wrong. I have always respected MtF people for the existance that I could never have the strength to do. I will always refer to people like yourself as Transsexual or TS. Unfortunately, on this forum I am an outsider and a minority. Seems you will need to admit that no one on this forum ever directed those words to you, but meerly out of ignorance to the subject presented a name that you alone are upset with. You are the only person on this forum who continues to argue this point, and the people who post here that are a part of your community have agreed with the rest of the forum. What else is there to say?

[ubersmack]

You even posted 3 times in this thread supporting the view of the rest of the forum. Why support a thread that you are completely opposed to?

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10377

[nudistharry]

I have strong opinions about PC. To put it briefly I'm generally opposed to PC. If you're a garbage collector or janitor don't expect me to call you a "sanitation engineer". Even in my job there is PC that irritates me. I'm a "certified nursing aid" NOT a "clinical associate" or "clinical assistant". (Some feel that "nursing aid" is derogatory, since it is basically an unskilled job, so many places use "clinical associate" or "clinical assistant" instead.)

That said, terms that are generally accepted as derogatory should be avoided if possible. The few should not make the rules for the many. If someone took offense to being called "transgender" and wanted to be called "a Pre-operation male" should I be expected to also call you "a Pre-operation male"?

[MarieDelta]

Well Marie, these people have quite the arguement as I see it. You have failed to present a fact as to why everyone in your thread is wrong. I have always respected MtF people for the existance that I could never have the strength to do. I will always refer to people like yourself as Transsexual or TS. Unfortunately, on this forum I am an outsider and a minority. Seems you will need to admit that no one on this forum ever directed those words to you, but meerly out of ignorance to the subject presented a name that you alone are upset with. You are the only person on this forum who continues to argue this point, and the people who post here that are a part of your community have agreed with the rest of the forum. What else is there to say?

See thats just it. I never said they did direct those words at me. However when People attack me, I tend to defend myself.

As to why I posted there, the people in those pictures are sex workers that are transsexuals, commonly refered to as, yes, she-males or trannies.

I am not a sex worker. I prefer not to be refered to as such. You want to call yourself that, please feel free.

Also I dont see the need fo using such words when referring to anyone else. My mother always taught me to respect myself and others and that using low class language showed you up as low class.

Isnt the golden rule to do unto others as you would have them do unto you?

Wouldn't it be a hell of a world if we used terms like that for everyone? "Hey bitch, go tell that nigger to get those wetbacks and that faggot to process this paperwork."

[IanBorthwick]

Just cause I am so sick of what the latest war is, and this seems the latest back and forth thing that drives my blood pressure up, I'm posting something that is extremely relevant and may even make you laugh.

I'm tired...tired of the conflict to just get people to be decent to each other, but at the same time I am tried of the Politically correct hammering on me too.

Everyone's a Little Bit Racist from Avenue Q. Very appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM

Watch this and see who you are most like...

It's not hard, but if you focus each day on treating others as you would have them do unto you, and not run others down for perceived personal slights, or even assuming the world is out to be rude to just YOU, then the PC stuff falls away. Then we can call off the PC Nazis and their Drones, and stop being them ourselves and making the system keep going.

Seriously, I'm not on either side. I believe in manners, but not regimentation. I believe in free speech so if you are going to be uncouth, I have the right to rip you up one side and down the other. But having people walking lockstep afraid to offend by applying double standards is so screwed up it makes me ill. it's as Thought police as anything else I've seen the conservatives toss our way...and by conservatives I refer to 99 44/100 percent of the swill been tossed at us by some here on the site as well.

I'm tired of seeing people try to make each other walk on eggshells, and I am most sick of those who take offense to perceived insults using sexist talk and humor as if it was ok. If I sat down and started rattling off things people do here that insist their fecal matter doesn't stink I'd have less friends than I do now.

Come on folks. Bury the hatchet, and not in someone's head, huh? Work a compromise just once and let's get back to doing things a little bit smarter? I'm begging you...again! The last time this insanity came up and 2 camps started slogging away at each other LDD decided to high-tail it out of here and it wasn't until then you all woke up!

You're arguing viewpoints as if they have no consequence, and it's not the case. These aren't just Points of View you shove down each others throats. These aren't just right and wrong...sometimes you're slashing at each others throats with knives to feel better about yourself. And this is on both sides of the issues!

I know for a fact few of you would care if I took a stand and disappeared because of it, that's why I lurk when hurt. So before you make your next post, before you Quote and Dissect, before you grab your proverbial tire-iron and start pounding someone here...Imagine as best you can what the site would be like with that person forever gone. Because that's what you're likely to eventually get.

[MarieDelta]

I know for a fact few of you would care if I took a stand and disappeared because of it, that's why I lurk when hurt..

Funny enough thats exactly how I feel and why I started this thread.

[Realist]

This is my way of dealing with anyone.........

If I don't know a person, I am fairly cautious about what I say, remain polite, and avoid subjects that tend to be controversial. I will observe their demeanor, interests, and especially their pet peeves. If I agree, I may add my feelings...or not. If I don't agree, I seldom get involved. (Depends how strongly I feel about the subject...I tend to be a lot less emotional about some things others feel strongly about)

When I learn more about that person, their sensibilities, humor, quirks, I will relax and share more of my own interests and feelings about issues. It doesn't hurt to listen to ideals, that might not be the same as mine........ as long as someone's not trying for force their dogma on me....as long as it remains a polite exchange.

Even if I decide I don't like a person, or their opinions, I will usually avoid playing into their traps, where they try to corner me to see if they can get me fired up over some rant. I usually feel, in these conversations, that little I can say will sway their opinions, anyway. So, it would be fruitless for me to discuss things further.(I've seen that happen here, many times...especially recently)

However, if I do feel strongly about a subject, I will state my opinion to affirm my stand. This is a time when some will be insulting and attempt to berate, or humiliate others.....I try not to get into a situation, like that.

When I was younger, I would enter into an escalating war of words and have actually had fights over a few arguments. These were rarely productive, though, so I learned to bow out, keeping my thoughts to myself.

A genuinely thoughtful and polite exchange of ideas is one thing, emotional and overbearing verbal battles are another.

[darkeyes]

Political correctness derives from a time when divisions in our societies were such that referring to people in the perjorative was to insult them and to show contempt. A movement began to try and foster respect by persuading society to refer to people by their proper title.. whether that be racial, social and yes, sexual descriptions. It was certainly much more prevelant to use such perjorative descriptions more freely and contemptuosly than exists now in western society.. it was, and is an exercise in good manners, civility and respect.

That the experiment or exercise in Political Correctness was not entirely successful is unsuprising given how deeply our prejudices are buried within us, and to some extent the fact that various groups of people tried to reclaim those perjorative descriptions to describe themselves may it can be argued, have been counterproductive.. this attempt, only partially successful has backfired in many ways, because it has encouraged those from outside to continue to use the perjorative rather than fuller, and/or more accurate description of what a person is.

I do not deny for one moment my own share of responsibility, for, within my own peer group, and my own circle of friends, I call myself quite openly, tart, dyke, whore, trollop and several other such names. That I have the right to do so is not in doubt, excepting for the fact that by doing so, it encourages those from outside that peer group or my circle of friends to think and believe they can continue such usage, as much as terms of abuse and as it ever is meant as a term of affection or respect. So it brings me to the conundrum.. should we within our peer groups and our own circles cease using the perjorative because by doing so apparently others not of that group or circle feel it entitles them to contibue to do so, for whatever reason they like.

I do think political correctness has a place.. and do believe that it would be sad if many slang terms fell out of use in our language entirely.. I have never been entirely PC and would hope none of us ever is, for it would indeed be a loss to our culture and our language. But our decision to use the perjorative brings with it a responsibility of thinking how we use it and when... within our peer group or personal circle is certainly an acceptable use.. using the perjorative as a term of affection and respect from outside that peer group may be acceptable, but using it as so many do use it is not.. as a term of abuse and contempt, and as a way of considering ourselves superior to another, and another not quite human is not, as a way of describing a part of our community as perverted, and as a way of dividing not just the LGBT movement, but the human race as a whole as who has been baited by racial perjoratives know only too well.. it is that which has sparked this little barney.. any who has suffered discrimination or harrassment at work for being and being called fag, any who has been harrassed and taunted in the street for being "poof", "dyke" or "tranny", any who has been assaulted and beaten within an inch of their life for being "bent" or "shemale" know exactly what I mean. Among many sectors of society such terms to describe us, and racial terms such as "Mick" and "Paddy", "Spick", "Chink" or "Frog", religious terms such as "left footer", "proddy" or "Yid", are used to dehumanise those who are within those communities and make it easier on the conscience of the bigot when it comes to victimising them and so they are used as terms of division.

That Marie is sensitive about the words "Tranny" and " Shemale I understand entirely.. for I have suffered harrassment and assault by screaming bigots calling me "dyke", "lesbian "whore"", "perv".. and this last word as much as any sums up the entire reason why Marie, and myself, and many others can be so sensitive about who uses the perjorative when describing us or anyone else for that matter.. it is what the entire debate is about in a sense.. it is about our right not to be considered a perversion, but as a human being..

I realise that nothing I have said resolves the issue.. but I ask those of you who use the perjorative so freely think of why you use it, and understand that, while you may not consider it to be hurtful or contemptuous, there are those from within our community, who because of what their life has brought them, do... and very often, whatever we think and say.. it very often is..

..and what we must remember is that this site is an open forum.. the world, whether member or no is able to look at what we write and say about each other.. and many do.. and not all are our friends..

[void()]

"The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition), was a tribunal established in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the Medieval Inquisition which was under Papal control. The Inquisition was originally intended in large part to ensure the orthodoxy of those who converted from Judaism and Islam. This regulation of the faith of the newly converted was intensified after the royal decrees issued in 1492 and 1501 ordering Jews and Muslims to convert or leave.

Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' decision to fund the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos, profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics, reducing social tensions and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column."

The 'Burning Times' were not originally about Wicca or witchcraft, rather about Jews and Muslims converting to Christianity. And the Inquisitions only had jurisdiction over baptized Christians. Most 'witch' trails went through secular courts, which could still try people on accusations of blasphemy.

If we're being politically correct, use of words is important. The word witch goes back to the Hebrew language, meaning one who poisons others. The word pagan falls back to the Latin pagani, people from the hills. These people were kept uneducated and in impoverished states as serfs for the Church. It's obvious the Church did not want an uprising and used the Inquisitions to forge examples.

Yes homosexuals were executed during these times. But it was for the charge of sodomy being seen as a crime against nature. After reading this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogue_Between_a_Priest_and_a_Dying_Man), a person might have a different view upon nature. I do, there are plenty of examples in nature of homosexuality, heterosexuality, bisexuality. Sure, crime against nature alright.

Yes words are important. But sometimes people need to let go. Something someone does or says will offend someone somewhere, that's just a fact of life. We all need to relax and remember it's a cosmic joke. No one gets out alive, after all.

[luv2play8899]

PC is a bullshit waste of time. I shall never ever participate in such even if I live to be 1000 yrs old.
Its an attempt by the weak minded to 'control' what others say, to control language and expression, its often highly influenced by creating offense into something where there is none.
There really is no such thing as 'offensive words'. Word's in and of themselves are not offensive. Its the intention of the user that matters. PC completely ignores this fact.

Like George Carlin once said, ""There are no bad words, there are bad thoughts, bad intentions, and woooords." :)

[darkeyes]

PC is a bullshit waste of time. I shall never ever participate in such even if I live to be 1000 yrs old.
Its an attempt by the weak minded to 'control' what others say, to control language and expression, its often highly influenced by creating offense into something where there is none.
There really is no such thing as 'offensive words'. Word's in and of themselves are not offensive. Its the intention of the user that matters. PC completely ignores this fact.

Like George Carlin once said, ""There are no bad words, there are bad thoughts, bad intentions, and woooords." :)

Being polite and nice to people, and not going out of your way to insult them, and trying to avoid causing them pain is a form of political correctness... so you don't buy into it then?

You must have a very difficult life is all I can say.. and possibly a lot of smacks in the gob..:)

Words of any description used with bad iintention automatically become bad words.. it isnt the fault of the word at all.. merely the person with bad thoughts who uttered it..

[meteast chick]

Everyone's a Little Bit Racist from Avenue Q. Very appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbud8rLejLM


Thanks for mentioning my favorite play!

[chook]

Well the way I look at it is, If it's political there is no way that it's correct, and after what I've seen of political correctness in this country they can sove it up their arses sideways for all I care.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[welickit]

People were politically correct when they didn't challenge Adolph Hitler and his dream of a master race consisting of blue eyed blond's and no Jews.

[darkeyes]

Well the way I look at it is, If it's political there is no way that it's correct, and after what I've seen of political correctness in this country they can sove it up their arses sideways for all I care.


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

Tellya wot Chookie me luffly 'ole upside down 'ead.. from observation of the many.. an I mean MANY Australian and New Zealanders who live, study, work in and visit this city while they do the grand tour, I have yet to meet any other people, from any part of the world, brash and loud as they can be, hysterically funny and sometimes, in the use of words which may be deemed to be politically incorrect, who display as much politically correct intent and consideration... they are remarkably polite... and incredibly nice!!!

Sooo me tuff, brash ole antipodean coot.. stick that in ya "macho" pipe an smoke it...:bigrin:;)

[darkeyes]

People were politically correct when they didn't challenge Adolph Hitler and his dream of a master race consisting of blue eyed blond's and no Jews.

That had nowt whatever to do with PCness.. it did have much to do with Europe and the US having witnessed the ghastly carnage of 1914-18 and recoiling in disgust from it, their fear of it ever occuring again and their determination that it would not..

..we can argue the rights and wrongs of it, but 15 million died as a result of that war.. in 1939-45, over 50 million, and if we add the cost of the Japanese incursion into Manchuria of 1931 as the true beginning of that conflict as many do, then we are talking of untold millions more... so I would argue that their fear was fully justified...

[welickit]

Well darkeyes, at the ripe old age of 30 I am sure you remember it better than I do. You probably watched the Nurenburg trials live also. Or are you quoting something you read?

[chook]

Tellya wot Chookie me luffly 'ole upside down 'ead.. from observation of the many.. an I mean MANY Australian and New Zealanders who live, study, work in and visit this city while they do the grand tour, I have yet to meet any other people, from any part of the world, brash and loud as they can be, hysterically funny and sometimes, in the use of words which may be deemed to be politically incorrect, who display as much politically correct intent and consideration... they are remarkably polite... and incredibly nice!!!

Sooo me tuff, brash ole antipodean coot.. stick that in ya "macho" pipe an smoke it...:bigrin:;)

Sorry Fran but this time you are blowing it out of yer arse sweety, There's a huge difference in visiting some other country and exercising "polite and good manners" to making a total arse out of yourself without all this socalled political correct bullshit.

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[Realist]

I learned the hard way, that few Americans can out-drink either the Aussies, or New Zealanders!

I think they train for drinking!

But, you're right, Fran, those I've met are great folks.

[sparkster86]

Political Correctness is for the most part all about ego. At least in most cases that I have seen it practiced. For example, many Janitors prefer to be called "Custodial Engineers." The position is "janitorial" hence the janitor term for workers. Most people who care about Political Correctness are those with low self esteem and are really self concious.

[DuckiesDarling]

Well darkeyes, at the ripe old age of 30 I am sure you remember it better than I do. You probably watched the Nurenburg trials live also. Or are you quoting something you read?

Not that I am saying I agree with Fran but I feel inclined to point out that you do not have to live through an event to know about things. History is there to be studied and learned from and hopefully not repeated.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That had nowt whatever to do with PCness.. it did have much to do with Europe and the US having witnessed the ghastly carnage of 1914-18 and recoiling in disgust from it, their fear of it ever occuring again and their determination that it would not..

..we can argue the rights and wrongs of it, but 15 million died as a result of that war.. in 1939-45, over 50 million, and if we add the cost of the Japanese incursion into Manchuria of 1931 as the true beginning of that conflict as many do, then we are talking of untold millions more... so I would argue that their fear was fully justified...


Fran. There is a term for this sort of internet behavior. It's called Godwin's Law.

Godwin's Law/prov./ "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. "


See, I knew this thread would be Godwin'd. I just didn't think it would be on page one. Most forums I am a part of lock down threads anytime someone invokes Godwin's Law.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Well darkeyes, at the ripe old age of 30 I am sure you remember it better than I do. You probably watched the Nurenburg trials live also. Or are you quoting something you read?

31 actually, darling, but no matter. But no, I am not quoting directly from anything I've read.. although I have read much that has formed my opinion and there are many much more knowledgable historians than I who have long since come to that view. Other influences are my grandfather and great uncles who lived through the 1930s, and one old bugger I knew who fought for the British Battalion of international brigade in Spain (another conflict closely linked to WW2 and a kind of trial run to the beginning of the war in Europe). Even many right wing historians. And as far as I know, there is no historian of any repute, whether of the left, right or cetre, who has ever argued that why Hitler was not stopped, and why WW2 occured was down to political correctness. If you live in Europe you know why appeasement was attempted, and why people were so afraid of another conflict on the scale of WWI and political correctness it was not.

I don't expect you to agree with a word I have said, and it doesnt matter if you do.. but if you care to do just a little elementary study I think you will find that that your argument is like a pail without a bottom. :)

[darkeyes]

Sorry Fran but this time you are blowing it out of yer arse sweety, There's a huge difference in visiting some other country and exercising "polite and good manners" to making a total arse out of yourself without all this socalled political correct bullshit.

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

I never blow out of my arse sweetie. I am a lady.;)

[darkeyes]

Fran. There is a term for this sort of internet behavior. It's called Godwin's Law.

Godwin's Law/prov./ "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. "


See, I knew this thread would be Godwin'd. I just didn't think it would be on page one. Most forums I am a part of lock down threads anytime someone invokes Godwin's Law.

PasaTy Pasa. I know of Godwin's Law, and I can't say I have ever found it particularly sensible.. it stops me running off at the cyber gob too much!:tong:;)

[darkeyes]

I have even seen the PC claim that people who are mixed race, Latino such as Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, and Cubans, who can pass as white are not really "people of color". :rolleyes:

We are all people of colour no matter our heritage.. I am a sort of pink pale beigie colour.. if I wasnt no one would be able to see me or would have a good look at me insides.

But most of all, no matter the colour of our skin, we are all human beings.. now go and stick your bigotry where the sun doesnt shine..

[MarieDelta]

http://youtu.be/2Z4m4lnjxkY

http://youtu.be/yGKPHFrHVVY

[MarieDelta]

This article on the use of the word "tranny" most accurately describes how I feel about it.

It is the word that comes before an attack. Hearing it or "she male" instantly turns me from friendly and happy to ready to fight or flight.

It is the word I've heard before someone starts either atacking me physically or emotionally.

http://www.out.com/exclusives.asp?id=27990

[bityme]

The problem with Political Correctness is just that, being classified as correct because of politics.

A better point of view would be good manners (as a prior poster mentioned) or perhaps Socially Acceptable.

Unfortunately, PC so often arises from political pressure groups seeking to end the use a term that is in fact correct and does nothing more that properly describe the current state of affairs.

Thus an "illegal alien" description for one who has either entered the country illegally or entered legally but remained after their authorization expires becomes the "undocumented worker." While the PC claim that "undocumented worker" is the preferred term, it is far from accurate. First of all it fails to properly describe the person status in the country and attempts to give them air of respectability when they are, in fact, guilty of a felony.

It also gives people the misconception that it is alright to take advantage of the individuals status because is makes us forget the possibility of criminal prosecution. In other words, it is alright for us to look the other way while the individual pays a coyote $3,000 to bring them across the border so they can seek work or close our eyes to them having to pay $2.00 per hour to the guy that got them the $8.00 an hour job, but call them an "illegal alien," God forbid.

In truth, the "undocumented worker" is the person who was born here or became a naturalized citizen who can get the job without furnishing documentation of his/her status.

That, in my opinion, is what they refer to as "Political Correctness." Not some argument about what socially acceptable terms should be used in what social situations. Political Correctness is a political pressure group trying to get you to use a term which misstates a status in favor of a term that is factually correct and then others joining on the band wagon.

[MarieDelta]

bityme, I agree in part with what you say.

However the most common use of the epithet I've seen to date has been to shut people up or as a way to start an argument.

Especially when people who are a minority tell a majority that they shouldnt use certain terms.

I was always taught that my rights end where yours begin. Isnt that true?

[coyotedude]

However the most common use of the epithet I've seen to date has been to shut people up or as a way to start an argument.

Especially when people who are a minority tell a majority that they shouldnt use certain terms.

This echoes my point exactly. All too often, people invoke the "PC" card to demean and censor those who have a problem with rude or offensive behavior.

Yes, there are times when groups try to define "acceptable" speech to match their political viewpoints. When liberals do this, it's called "political correctness." But conservatives do the exact same thing; listen to any conservative talk radio host for half an hour if you disagree with me. Yet their efforts aren't labeled "political correctness." Gee, I wonder why? <Insert sarcastic tone here.>

That's one reason I claim that political correctness is largely a "myth." What's good for the goose should be good for the gander. But it ain't.

Those who embrace political incorrectness essentially maintain that I'm somehow at fault when they want to be assholes. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with me.

Again: if you want to be an asshole, that's your choice. But don't expect me to keep my mouth shut about it.

Peace

[Hephaestion]

Have you actually read what I wrote earlier in this thread about how the term "people of color" came about by the PC?

It is not being bigoted to say how the PC term "people of color" which is meant to be inclusive for Latinos, Blacks, and Asians is used by the ultra PC to say, "oh wait a minute! If you can pass as white or are of mixed race you are not really a 'person of color!'". :rolleyes:

That is bigotry, and it's propagated by those that are politically correct.

There is a curious contradiction sets in when race is the focus of classification. Classifying race is inherently wrong in as much as boundaries are set for a what is really a continuum and these boundaries have no objective definition. Therefore, there is continuous challenge.

For example, once a person has memorable (within recallable memory) negro (black is a colour) in their origins they seem to be classified as 'black' i.e. negro even though they are plainly as light skinned as what would normally be called 'white' (plus fair hair, blue-green eyes and perhaps freckles). The 'people of colour' concept seems to follow this.

A similar hard classification was used by the Nazi's in Germany with the concept of being Jewish or even 'not being Ayrian' (enough). This was bolstered with a programme, in which the right people with the right combination of characters and background were set up to breed, in order to produce the ideal blonde blue-eyed master race. One of the success in this was the birth of one dark-brown haired individual called Anni-Frid Lyngstad of ABBA (although she does have blue eyes). Thus epitomising the fact that we all vary in our our exteriors as we do in our genetic make up.

That said it, would appear that the 'Jews' themselves are equally daft in the claim that one cannot be Jewish unles one's mother is. Is this not confounding faith with genetics and all of its variabilities?

As for the term 'Asians'. It should be noted that many Asians (people geographically located in Asia) are a mxiture of light and dark skinned (black?) Caucasians (all shades in between) and varying versions of Orientals

When does one become part of the indigenous population? Certainly not while there are pointless classifications that tend to disrupt any evolving natural harmony. This last has to be a two way effort.

[MarieDelta]

You do know about SA "pencil test"? If your hair was thick enough to hold a pencil you were deemed to be "colored". Thus some asians were "colored" and some were not.

Its ridiculous.

But as far as determining ancestry, the only sure way to know is to determine ancestry matrilineally.

However as far as political correctness goes, its a moot point. It's not up to us to determine whether someone is "colored" or not. The only thing we need to worry about is treating people fairly and equitably.

[Hephaestion]

You do know about SA "pencil test"? If your hair was thick enough to hold a pencil you were deemed to be "colored". Thus some asians were "colored" and some were not.

Its ridiculous.

But as far as determining ancestry, the only sure way to know is to determine ancestry matrilineally.

However as far as political correctness goes, its a moot point. It's not up to us to determine whether someone is "colored" or not. The only thing we need to worry about is treating people fairly and equitably.


I can pick up a pencil with clenched buttocks but I do not think it is anything to do with the hair on my arse


"...But as far as determining ancestry, the only sure way to know is to determine ancestry matrilineally...."

Are you suggesting that the naughty girls have been cuckolding the hubby at every opportunity? Certainly some of the cellular organelles are inherited purely from the maternal line (mitochondria). But I am not so sure that we can dispense with males entirely


".....The only thing we need to worry about is treating people fairly and equitably..."

Agreed

[darkeyes]

It's not up to us to determine whether someone is "colored" or not. The only thing we need to worry about is treating people fairly and equitably.

I actually don't agree with that necessarily Marie, for one person fair and equitable is not that of another.. its ok as far as it goes.. the British Empire felt its treatment of the people it subjugated was fair and equitable.. but no one nowadays accepts that except the most dogmatic imperial apologist, for it blatantly was not.

The government of my country, and of yours believes its treatment of its citizens and of other nations around the world is fair and equitable and yet on even the most cursory glance we can see that not to be accurate.

Along with fair and equitable we need to add campassion, tolerance, acceptance and understanding that we are, none of us, better than the other, and deal everyone an even hand. I look at colour of skin in the same way I consider colour of eyes or hair.. an accident not of birth but conception .. we are all human beings and colour is, or should be of no import when determining the worth of any person..

[darkeyes]

Have you actually read what I wrote earlier in this thread about how the term "people of color" came about by the PC?

It is not being bigoted to say how the PC term "people of color" which is meant to be inclusive for Latinos, Blacks, and Asians is used by the ultra PC to say, "oh wait a minute! If you can pass as white or are of mixed race you are not really a 'person of color!'". :rolleyes:

That is bigotry, and it's propagated by those that are politically correct.

Actually the term coloured person, which, correct me if I am wrong, means precisely the same, goes back a long, long way before the concept of Political Correctness was even thought of, and was used to denote all races who were not "white" and was used as a way of lessening them as human beings in the eyes of those "white" people. Both expressions are condescending and offensive in the extreme, and therefore in my humble opinion, racist.

You really ought to get your facts straight, dear, before you make a total fool of yourself... the term was used first not by those who we can consider politically correct at all, but the politically very offensively incorrect, patronising, condescending and racially bigotted.

[MarieDelta]

.. we are all human beings and colour is, or should be of no import when determining the worth of any person..

Agreed!

[Pasadenacpl2]

I keep reading that we should be fair and equitable to everyone. I read that we should not believe that anyone is better than anyone else.

Y'all should read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut.

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

I keep reading that we should be fair and equitable to everyone. I read that we should not believe that anyone is better than anyone else.

Y'all should read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut.

Pasa

Already read.

Before the law all people are created equal...

[MarieDelta]

84.6&#37; of LGBT students reported being verbally harassed, 40.1% reported being physically harassed and 18.8% reported being physically assaulted at school in the past year because of their sexual orientation.
63.7% of LGBT students reported being verbally harassed, 27.2% reported being physically harassed and 12.5% reported being physically assaulted at school in the past year because of their gender expression.
72.4% heard homophobic remarks, such as "faggot" or "dyke," frequently or often at school.
Nearly two-thirds (61.1%) of students reported that they felt unsafe in school because of their sexual orientation, and more than a third (39.9%) felt unsafe because of their gender expression.
29.1% of LGBT students missed a class at least once and 30.0% missed at least one day of school in the past month because of safety concerns, compared to only 8.0% and 6.7%, respectively, of a national sample of secondary school students.
The reported grade point average of students who were more frequently harassed because of their sexual orientation or gender expression was almost half a grade lower than for students who were less often harassed (2.7 vs. 3.1).
Increased levels of victimization were related to increased levels of depression and anxiety and decreased levels of self-esteem.
Being out in school had positive and negative repercussions for LGBT students – outness was related to higher levels of victimization, but also higher levels of psychological well-being.

emphasis mine
source : http://www.glsen.org/cgi-bin/iowa/all/news/record/2624.html
Specifically regarding transpeople:


Among those who had been bullied, harassed or assaulted while they were in school, half reported having attempted suicide. Most notably, suicide attempt rates rise dramatically when teachers were the reported perpetrators: 59 percent for those harassed or bullied by teachers, 76 percent among those who were physically assaulted by teachers and 69 percent among those who were sexually assaulted by teachers.


Of those who reported that they had to "leave school because the harassment was so bad," 68 percent said they attempted suicide.Fully 61 percent of respondents who expressed a transgender identity or gender non-conformity while in school reported significant abuses in educational settings. From elementary through graduate school, the survey showed high levels of harassment and bullying (59 percent), physical assault (23 percent), sexual assault (8 percent), and expulsion from school (5 percent), all on the basis of gender identity or expression.

Other findings include:


•Thirty-five percent of the participants who had been bullied, harassed, assaulted or expelled because of their gender identity or expression while in school said that they used drugs or alcohol to cope with the effects of discrimination, compared to 21 percent of those who had not had similar experiences in school.
•Twenty-five percent reported that they were currently or formerly homeless, compared to 14 percent of those who did not report mistreatment in schools.
•Those who reported they had to "leave school because the harassment was so bad," had an HIV infection rate of more than 5 percent, which is more than eight times the HIV infection rate for the general U.S. population.



Source: http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Bullying--Transgender-Students-and-the-Risk-of-Suicide.html?soid=1100409733839&aid=uKN5iQ_U6L4
If we cannot teach our children that treating each other with respect is a good thing, we will pay the price in lives IMO.

[Hephaestion]

We're not talking about the term colored people or colored person.

I'm writing about the PC term "people of color" that's used nowadays.

Person of color

Person of color (plural: people of color; persons of color) is a term used, primarily in the United States, to describe all people who are not white. The term is meant to be inclusive among non-white groups, emphasizing common experiences of racism. People of color was introduced as a preferrable replacement to both non-white and minority, which are also inclusive, because it frames the subject positively; non-white defines people in terms of what they are not (white), and minority frequently carries a subordinate connotation. Style guides for writing from American Heritage, the Stanford Graduate School of Business, Mount Holyoke College, recommend the term over these alternatives. It may also be used with other collective categories of people such as students of color or men of color.

You're the one who should get her facts straight before typing out things she knows little about including just what Political Correctness is and the history of it. ;)

Is there an objective definition of 'white' please?

[luv2play8899]

Being polite and nice to people..... is a form of political correctness...


Horseshit.
Being polite is fine, commendable even.
Worrying about words that are not intended to mean harm because some weak minded dolt is 'insulted' even when there is none however is a waste of time.



You must have a very difficult life is all I can say.. and possibly a lot of smacks in the gob..:)

Actually the opposite. Thankfully there are are still millions who reject PC bullshit and appreciate direct honesty and have enough self esteem to not look for offense in every little word, but pay attention instead to intention.




Words of any description used with bad iintention automatically become bad words..

Key word here = INTENTION....which is what I said to begin with.

[luv2play8899]

Most people who care about Political Correctness are those with low self esteem and are really self concious.

Bingo.

[darkeyes]

Horseshit.
Being polite is fine, commendable even.
Worrying about words that are not intended to mean harm because some weak minded dolt is 'insulted' even when there is none however is a waste of time.



Actually the opposite. Thankfully there are are still millions who reject PC bullshit and appreciate direct honesty and have enough self esteem to not look for offense in every little word, but pay attention instead to intention.




Key word here = INTENTION....which is what I said to begin with.

In a sense I agree with your first sentence. But isnt it interesting how often people when using the perjorative start with the expression "no offence meant, but.." and isnt it also interesting how they retreat behind the parapets when challenged about using words and expressions, denying offence when offence and ridicule was so planly the intention.. and for your information I am not a dolt, and I am bright enough to stand my ground without the need to hide behind stock defensive phraseology as you and all those do who cry out the words "politically correct" when told home truth you dont like or agree with.

People can be direct and honest without being complete and utter clowns you know. Think on it.. I don't look for offence in every word, far from it, but sometimes there are words which when used you may not think you are being offensive and belittling another, but sweetheart you are.. you are not alone in that, for I have been at fault for it myself in my little life... but I usually learn and try and understand why another feels as they do.. and avoid the pitfalls of insult and causing pain to another bwhen it is all too easy not to.. and that I suppose is the difference between someone like you and someone like me..

You are right in this.. people can be too easily offended.. we are human and we all have our sensitivities for whatever reason..yet knowing that as a fact should make us try and show some tact and not go blundering in like and total arsehole.. it doesnt mean we cant be blunt or honest.. it does mean that we should think a little before opening our mouths and letting our bellies rumble..

[luv2play8899]

To further discuss this subject, here's an example phrase:

"God I love trannys! They are so freakin' hot!!"

Now, any non weak minded person with even a small degree of self esteem will realize that there is NOT one ounce of hatred, disrespect, or offense in that.
Admiration? Yes. Desire? Probably.
However, the PC crowd will 'demand' that a different word (which they will supply) be used, and as with most all PC bullshit try to control the language and expression of others...REGARDLESS of intention.
I shall never pander to any such nonsense. Ever! :)

Here's another example, and one I see and hear regularly:

"Whatsup nigger?"

This is mostly used by black folk, often (not always) that same black person will maintain that word used IN ANY CONTEXT is a 'black only' word, not to be used by any white person ever. To which I say....
BULLSHIT!! LOL
Weak minded moronic idiots like this should be reminded that..
1. NO one owns the language. NO ONE!
2. No group can either claim or demand certain words used or not used.
3. 'White only' and 'black only' is a concept already tried here in the USA, we once had restrooms, lunch counters, etc etc that were just that. It failed. It is the epitome of racism.
Such moronic notions should be UTTERLY squashed.
But instead, the PC crowd continues to fuel these type stupid notions.

Here is something taught to me by a black grandma I grew up around....
"If you want respect you must EARN it. You can never truly successfully demand it"

She was right. If you demand that certain words or attitudes be used or omitted you will only reinforce that those attitudes and words remain.
They will still be there, under the surface perhaps, but stronger then ever. ;)

[darkeyes]

Here is something taught to me by a black grandma I grew up around....
"If you want respect you must EARN it. You can never truly successfully demand it"

She was right. If you demand that certain words or attitudes be used or omitted you will only reinforce that those attitudes and words remain.
They will still be there, under the surface perhaps, but stronger then ever. ;)

About the first part of this post I make no comment except to say that everything you state is arguable to say the least.. however..

...about earning respect I agree entirely.. long gone are the days when people had the right to demand it for whatever reason.. but maybe if you knew me a little better, you will know I have never demanded anything.. the right to say my peace maybe but not much more.. not even to be read or listened to. I do not demand, I seek to persuade and ask people if not to accept anything I say, merely consider. I do not demand that things should be.. only for my right to argue my beliefs and convictions..

But I hold to what I have said.. because it is what I believe.. it is my truth and mine alone. Those who fall back and attack others for their "political correctness" are both short of imagination and argument.. it is a defensive posture of limited vision and imagination. because those who use the jibe have so little else to offer except resort to ridicule of an opponent, whether or not they are PC, as being PC. It is a low form of argument and one which they,and you really need to revise, yet you and your kind won't because it is an easy and lazy petty jibe to make.. the funny thing is, it is invariably counter-productive, for by resorting to the criticism of political correctness and ridiculing opponents, such people in fact hold themselves up to even more ridicule than any amount of stick they give an opponent does..

[chook]

About the first part of this post I make no comment except to say that everything you state is arguable to say the least.. however..

...about earning respect I agree entirely.. long gone are the days when people had the right to demand it for whatever reason.. but maybe if you knew me a little better, you will know I have never demanded anything.. the right to say my peace maybe but not much more.. not even to be read or listened to. I do not demand, I seek to persuade and ask people if not to accept anything I say, merely consider. I do not demand that things should be.. only for my right to argue my beliefs and convictions..

But I hold to what I have said.. because it is what I believe.. it is my truth and mine alone. Those who fall back and attack others for their "political correctness" are both short of imagination and argument.. it is a defensive posture of limited vision and imagination. because those who use the jibe have so little else to offer except resort to ridicule of an opponent, whether or not they are PC, as being PC. It is a low form of argument and one which they,and you really need to revise, yet you and your kind won't because it is an easy and lazy petty jibe to make.. the funny thing is, it is invariably counter-productive, for by resorting to the criticism of political correctness and ridiculing opponents, such people in fact hold themselves up to even more ridicule than any amount of stick they give an opponent does..

But Fran you'd start an argument in an empty room if you didnt agree with yourself???

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[darkeyes]

But Fran you'd start an argument in an empty room if you didnt agree with yourself???

Cheers Chook :bigrin:

Chookie darlin' ya dunno how true that is.. not 1st time peeps have found me debatin wiv mesel... only way me gets ne sense sumtimes:tong:;)

1st time it eva happened wos bout 12 an me dad, bless 'is lil cotton socks. thot me had flipped... :eek:

[transcendMental]

To further discuss this subject, here's an example phrase:

"God I love trannys! They are so freakin' hot!!"

Now, any non weak minded person with even a small degree of self esteem will realize that there is NOT one ounce of hatred, disrespect, or offense in that.
Admiration? Yes. Desire? Probably.


Ok, let's discuss, but let's move it outside the realm of transsexualism for comparison purposes. Here's another example phrase:

"There's something about a cripple that I just find really sexy!"

Of course there is desire expressed here, but I do find this expression disrespectful.

I have no problem with someone finding a disabled person attractive. But to be turned on by the disability itself (which is what is implied in the statement) seems somewhat fetishist. Maybe not disrespectful in itself, but at least icky (and many would say that sexual objectification in itself is inherently disrespectful).

To couple expressing this taste with the derogative term "cripple" is what really moves it to the level of disrespectful. To me, using this word indicates that the person who makes this statement does not view the disabled person as a person; they view them as a sexual object, because of their disability. I would not be at all surprised if the opinions of disabled persons were somewhat divided on how offensive this is, but I maintain it is disrespectful.

In exactly the same way, although I do find no hatred in luv2play's example phrase, I have to say that I do find it disrespectful, even if no disrespect is meant. And as a member of the target group, I take offense. Find me beautiful, find me sexy. But to find my disability sexy, the thing that has caused me so much pain and distress throughout my life, and to describe this attraction using terms from the pornography industry, sounds exactly like sexual objectification.

It reduces me to the cause of my pain! How can I see that as respectful?

If you want to express something like "I really admire the strength of transsexuals" or "there's something about some transsexuals that really turns me on", I get that. But "trannies are so fucking hot" is really off-putting.

tm

[MarieDelta]

Ok, let's discuss, but let's move it outside the realm of transsexualism for comparison purposes. Here's another example phrase:

"There's something about a cripple that I just find really sexy!"

Of course there is desire expressed here, but I do find this expression disrespectful.

I have no problem with someone finding a disabled person attractive. But to be turned on by the disability itself (which is what is implied in the statement) seems somewhat fetishist. Maybe not disrespectful in itself, but at least icky (and many would say that sexual objectification in itself is inherently disrespectful).

To couple expressing this taste with the derogative term "cripple" is what really moves it to the level of disrespectful. To me, using this word indicates that the person who makes this statement does not view the disabled person as a person; they view them as a sexual object, because of their disability. I would not be at all surprised if the opinions of disabled persons were somewhat divided on how offensive this is, but I maintain it is disrespectful.

In exactly the same way, although I do find no hatred in luv2play's example phrase, I have to say that I do find it disrespectful, even if no disrespect is meant. And as a member of the target group, I take offense. Find me beautiful, find me sexy. But to find my disability sexy, the thing that has caused me so much pain and distress throughout my life, and to describe this attraction using terms from the pornography industry, sounds exactly like sexual objectification.

It reduces me to the cause of my pain! How can I see that as respectful?

If you want to express something like "I really admire the strength of transsexuals" or "there's something about some transsexuals that really turns me on", I get that. But "trannies are so fucking hot" is really off-putting.

tm

I wouldnt hang around such a person, much less go to bed with them. If they cant respect me enough to figure out that I prefer not to be refered to in such terms, then they are hardly worthy of my affection.

Any other person I would let know that I prefer not to be refered to in such a manner, probably with a sense of humour at first, if they persisted then I would find myself someplace else to be. It is creepy to be fetished for one's chronic pain. Its like saying "Them gimps/negroes/wops really make me hot."

[MarieDelta]

On a side note I find that most people who complain about "Political Correctness" are against any burning/"desecration" of their countries flag in protest. Isnt that "Political Correctness"?

[darkeyes]

O dear.. we nasty, nasty PC Brits.. when will we ever learn?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330994/Transformer-Spastic-UK-launch-scrapped-fears-cause-offence.html

[Pasadenacpl2]

I'm not. I find it vile, and I find it abhorent to burn the very symbol of our freedoms (ironically, the symbol of the freedoms that allows one to burn the flag in the first place). On the other hand, I wouldn't try to stop anyone from doing so either, and will defend their right to do so.

Most people I know who revile being Politically Correct feel the same way.

Politically Correct has us coming up with new names for things so as not to hurt other people's feelings. My general response to that is that people should have a thicker skin. A janitor is a janitor. They are not Custodial Specialists. A garbage man is a garbage man (or woman, should it be appropriate). They are not a Sanitation Engineer. Secretaries are secretaries, not Executive Assistants. If that ruffles your feathers, oh well.

Political Correctness is why we no longer have a Cookie Monster.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

O dear.. we nasty, nasty PC Brits.. when will we ever learn?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1330994/Transformer-Spastic-UK-launch-scrapped-fears-cause-offence.html

Let me know when you get to the summit of that molehill.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Already read.

Before the law all people are created equal...

Is that the message you got from that story? If so, we have VASTLY different interpretations of it.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

Let me know when you get to the summit of that molehill.

Pasa

Been sittin on that "molehill" ova last few days just admirin the view, Pasa darlin'..

.. but wile it may b a molehill 2 u.. not quite sure every1 agrees..:)

[MarieDelta]

Is that the message you got from that story? If so, we have VASTLY different interpretations of it.

Pasa

No...

But, if you wish to talk about it at length we can do so elsewhere. We could also discuss "Flowers For Algernon" and other topics of interest.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Being polite is fine, commendable even.
Worrying about words that are not intended to mean harm because some weak minded dolt is 'insulted' even when there is none however is a waste of time.


^This. This is the essence of the problem.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

No...

But, if you wish to talk about it at length we can do so elsewhere. We could also discuss "Flowers For Algernon" and other topics of interest.

I'd discuss Harrison Bergeron here because it directly applies to the topic at hand. It is where we are headed when we insist that everyone be treated exactly the same.

Oddly, Vonnegut knew this as early as the late 50s.

Anyone who hasn't read this masterful short story can find the full text here (http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html). It will only take about 8-10 minutes to read, as it isn't very long. It is completely worth the time, even if you disagree with his premise or conclusion.

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

I'm not. I find it vile, and I find it abhorent to burn the very symbol of our freedoms (ironically, the symbol of the freedoms that allows one to burn the flag in the first place). On the other hand, I wouldn't try to stop anyone from doing so either, and will defend their right to do so.


Pasa

Hmmm... I feel the same way about anyone who uses pejoratives terms to refer to minorities. Vile... abhorent.. yet willing to defend their right to do so.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Been sittin on that "molehill" ova last few days just admirin the view, Pasa darlin'..

.. but wile it may b a molehill 2 u.. not quite sure every1 agrees..:)

It's a difference of language and culture. Our languages, though they share the same base, are not the same languages. Culturally we are incredibly different. We can say one thing here and it be pedestrian. There, the same words can have a different meaning altogether.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going out on my porch to smoke a fag.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

It's a difference of language and culture. Our languages, though they share the same base, are not the same languages. Culturally we are incredibly different. We can say one thing here and it be pedestrian. There, the same words can have a different meaning altogether.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm going out on my porch to smoke a fag.

Pasa

Indeed so Pasa. Even within the UK itself and no doubt the US, within the member nations or states the same word often means something different within just a few miles of each other.. so no disgreement there from me..

I hope you enjoyed your smoke.. I gave up me fags years ago and its nice to be able to tuck into me faggots wen me has a mind 2 an actually taste 'em...:)

[Hephaestion]

I'd discuss Harrison Bergeron here because it directly applies to the topic at hand. It is where we are headed when we insist that everyone be treated exactly the same.

Oddly, Vonnegut knew this as early as the late 50s.

Anyone who hasn't read this masterful short story can find the full text here (http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html). It will only take about 8-10 minutes to read, as it isn't very long. It is completely worth the time, even if you disagree with his premise or conclusion.

Pasa

That story wasn't about treating everybody equally.

It was about handicapping people to some arbitary set low physical threshold. What was missing was who made the decisions.

The closest it comes to reality and therefore paradigm is its parody of small village mentality and suffocating conservativism.

[DuckiesDarling]

To go back to Marie's point about people not liking political correctness have no problem with their flag being burnt. Like Pasa I have a problem with it, it's vile but I would defend their right to do so. Just as I defend WBC's right to spout their shit no matter how vile and offensive I find it.

Freedom isn't free and the price we pay is often in having to allow things that most people dislike.

Political Correctness is a problem around the world and it leads to breakdown in communications as people try to skirt issues or address things in non offensive ways. Like Pasa said a janitor is a janitor no matter they say custodial engineer, a secretary is a secretary not executive assistant and a garbageman/woman is just that not a sanitation engineer.

Even a housewife/husband is a housewife/husband not a domestic engineer. And at the end of a day a transgendered person is still a transwoman/transman. Some do like to be referred to as a tranny and they should be called by whatever THEY prefer not what a few on a web page decide we should call them with no regard for THEIR feelings and thoughts. :2cents:

[Long Duck Dong]

ok...I was gonna stay the hell out of this..... but ..... I ain't ......

PC is the reason I am refered to as mentally ill...... even tho what I suffer from is not a illness, a disability or a disease..... I have dysthimia and PTSD

now dystimia is a personality based trait in me, it means I was born with it, it is a life sentence and there is no way for me to be free from it.... so I have to deal constantly with the label of mental illness, mentally ill and mentally incapacitated as PC terms

in order to recieve the benefits I do, I have to allow myself to be regarded as mentally ill on paper.... something that I hate.... but it gives me freedom to be who I am why labelling me with a label that I absolutely hate.......

so it begs the question, should I have the right to tell people that they should not use the term mentally ill to refer to dysthimics.... as its offensive cos we are not ill at all..... we do not have a disease and there is no epidemic that is contagious......

personally, I shrug it off.... people can call me tard, brain fucked, air head, bucket brain etc,.... and many more offensive terms..... and I just shrug them off..... cos I am not a thin skinned victim that wears my dystimia like a plaster cast ......

when I call my friends the trannie grannies.... I look at it as they are older people hence the term grannies, and grannies have a wealth of experience in life and living, they are people, human beings and some of the best people I have ever met...... being called a tranny doesn't hurt them or worry them cos as they say, they have dealt with far worse and being called a name either in a offensive or non offensive way, is not something that they give a shit about........

they have said to me at times, that the people that are affected most by name calling, are the people that are unable to handle who and what they are, so they hate other people reminding them about it..... and they will turn remarks of support, admiration and desire into issues and problems and that is normally a sign of a person that can not get their shit together so instead they try and change the world around them......

its so true.... I can never change the fact I have dysthimia, but hey, call me tard, airhead, buggered brain etc etc.... I have a life history of experience and that is what defines me as a person, ... not being bisexual, or dysthimic, or a annoying and thought provoking asshole in forums......

if we were to confine people to boxes, then I would not be a thought provoking asshole, I would be a troll..... and the forum, my bridge :tong:

so yes..... its its the victims of their own existence that want the world to change around them as the victim will never be able to change what they are into who they think they are...... and I am not a victim of dysthimic..... I am a person with bloody brain farts..... and proud of it......

[transcendMental]

Thought I'd said something worthwhile. Or at least worth thinking about.

Yeah, shouldn't have bothered. Enjoy your "debate", everyone.

[ubersmack]

Thought I'd said something worthwhile. Or at least worth thinking about.

Yeah, shouldn't have bothered. Enjoy your "debate", everyone.

Thought it was an interesting point and comparison. Sorry they didn't bring you in.

[Pasadenacpl2]

That story wasn't about treating everybody equally.

It was about handicapping people to some arbitary set low physical threshold. What was missing was who made the decisions.

The closest it comes to reality and therefore paradigm is its parody of small village mentality and suffocating conservativism.


You apparently missed the entire point of the story. It wasn't about handicapping. It was about ensuring that no one person had an advantage over anyone else. Everyone being equal, and being forced to be so.

Political Correctness is at least the first step on the path to this.

Pasa

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

You apparently missed the entire point of the story. It wasn't about handicapping. It was about ensuring that no one person had an advantage over anyone else. Everyone being equal, and being forced to be so.

Political Correctness is at least the first step on the path to this.

Pasa

Pasa

Exactly - by handicapping with some kind of imposition: weights, noises, distractions....... That does not treat everybody as equal.

However, your point about political correctness gone mad is understood.

I have posted this before. Much as I dissent, it is preferred to use the term 'black' for 'negro'. To call someone a 'bastard' can be as endearing as it is fair comment. Yet we had a case a couple of years ago where on negro was convicted of racism for calling another negro a 'black bastard'.

[darkeyes]

Thought I'd said something worthwhile. Or at least worth thinking about.

Yeah, shouldn't have bothered. Enjoy your "debate", everyone.

Your contrib was worthwile TM.. all of it, cos it is the crux of the whole debate.. the objectification of a person or persons.. and the objectification of a person or persons, even when inferring our want or desire, is to demean them and fail to show proper respect.

The same kind of people who opposed the struggle of feminists not to be considered sex objects oppose the struggle of transsexuals to be considered something more.. those who use such terms are generally the same people who would use perjorative terms such as cripple, or in my country very often spastic to describe the physically disabled, describe the Chinese as Chinks, French as Frogs, Jews as Yids, women as sluts, blacks as monkeys, Catholics as fenians, homosexuals as shirtlifters, lesbians as rugmunchers.. the objectification and sidelining of a person or group of persons. The terms Shemale and Tranny in respect of transsexual people bring transsexuals into line as far a such people are concerned.. they become objects of some kind, sometimes to be reviled, sometimes to be desired, but never to be fully respected or accepted as human beings of merit.

The argument has revolved around the expession "politically correct" but this is a misnomer and is designed to mislead and to discredit those who argue for respect, for it is a simple matter of whether we respect people's right to be addressed in the manner of their choice, and not be addressed in the manner of the tabloid press and the bigot.

Uber is right it was an interesting point, but it was an important and interesting contribution.. I flippantly threw in a quick post about Hasbro and a transformer toy in part as an attmept to lighten the debate, inspired by your post.. this was an error on my part and forgive me that.. that so many fail to see their is little difference between calling the disabled a cripple, and a transsexual a tranny or she-male, I think shows that after 50 odd years of struggle to improve the lot of all of we who are lgbt against an often hostile straight world, there are many things within our own ranks we have to begin addressing. The expressions Tranny and Shemale are the expressions and inventions of the straight world essentially, the porn industry and the tabloid media, and they are not designed or used to foster respect.

[MarieDelta]

ok.........

So... you're the only one with mental illness? Or PTSD?

Some of us have it, we just dont talk about it.

Some of us have it around the very terms that you laughingly think we should shrug off.

Just because not all of us are you & your "tranny grannys" doesnt make us weaker, or inferior to you.

You have the right to be an asshole, I have the right to call you on it.

& Pasa yes I read the damn story , ok. The thing is we are already equal before the law as in "All men are created equal."

What Harrison Berrgeron means is that we shouldnt attempt to constrain natural abilities by man made devices. Flowers for Algernon took precisely the opposite view, that we shouldnt attempt to buff up individual abilities with man made devices or medicine.

In efect both are saying that mankind should not "play god" with abilities, however we do this already with glasses and other forms of surgery.

Now the question I put before you is this. Where is your God when a child is born without hands, feet or even much awareness beyond the room they live in? Where is he then? Isnt he supposedly some "just God" that "loves us." And if we have the power shouldnt we at least attempt to make that child's life better?

You talk about how we should just deal with the hand we are dealt, or at laeast thats how your every post reads in this thread, to me. Isnt that a something of a priviledged veiwpoint?

And shouldnt the Law atempt to treat us all equally as citizens? Isn't that what it says in the Declaration of Independence? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

[Pasadenacpl2]

& Pasa yes I read the damn story , ok. The thing is we are already equal before the law as in "All men are created equal."

What Harrison Berrgeron means is that we shouldnt attempt to constrain natural abilities by man made devices. Flowers for Algernon took precisely the opposite view, that we shouldnt attempt to buff up individual abilities with man made devices or medicine.

No, this is not what it means. It means that we should not be trying to make everyone equal through legislative means. That, when we give to the government the responsibility of determining what is 'normal' and enforcing such a standard, that we will all ultimately pay a heavy price.


You talk about how we should just deal with the hand we are dealt, or at laeast thats how your every post reads in this thread, to me. Isnt that a something of a priviledged veiwpoint?

No, it is not a privileged viewpoint.

I'm sorry to say this, but we are not all created equal. We have equal rights. That's about it. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I don't begrudge those that were. I have my challenges to overcome. I have many, many impediments to success. You wouldn't know about that because I don't bitch about it. I play the hand I'm dealt, and I try to deal with life's obstacles in the best manner I can.



And shouldnt the Law atempt to treat us all equally as citizens? Isn't that what it says in the Declaration of Independence? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The law does treat us all equally. Yes, there are issues where the law hasn't caught up to reality. And there is always improvement to be made. However, enforcing political correctness doesn't accomplish your stated goals. Neither, btw, do hate crime legislation.

I'm all about being effective. If it works, then I'm for it. If it doesn't, then I am not. Guess what? Four threads, now, and you have been wonderfully ineffective. Why is that? Manner of presentation, perhaps. Or possibly it's the squeaky wheel syndrome? Or possibly it's that there is a flaw in your starting premise?

Since it's not my agenda, I don't care much which of those things it is. I leave that for you to figure out. But, I'll continue to tell you that this is mountain/molehill territory, especially when what you are doing does nothing to actually help TG issues. Women bitching about being called Mrs. didn't do a damn thing to help women's rights issues, either. No matter what your cause, stomping your foot down and insisting people change to suit your delicate sensibilities will only garner you (and therefor other's like you) derision and set back any progress. It makes you, and those like you, look like children whining that they didn't get their way. This is BAD not just for TG rights but for gay rights in general.

You'll note that I have not once called anyone a tranny, nor used the term except in reference to this thread. I'm all for being polite. You don't like the term. I don't use it in deference or reference to you. But in general? The term seems to serve it's purpose in identifying a person as what they are. But, for all that, I have not once been disrepectful, even by your own terms. So, if you disregard my post again as just me being a part of the straight community trying to take away your right to exist, I'll kindly tell you to blow it out your arse. I've been fighting the same fight. I just expect that my compatriots actually do things that are effective and not hurt the rest of us.

Until these threads, I had never once heard that tranny is the TG equivalent to nigger. I somehow suspect that this is not really the case, and that a bigger deal is being made of it than is reality. I suspect that we have a minority within an already small minority making this an issue where no issue previously existed.

No one can offend you unless you allow them to.

Pasa

[man65here]

I don't believe that I wasted my time ready this, I also don't believe that this many people posted responses.

Call me anything you want, if I don't like it I will tell you to your face. I probably won't be offended by anything you call me, if it is to "politically Correct" I will probably laugh.

I like to words faggot, queer, tranny, she-male, etc., but I also respect your right to refer to yourself any way you like. So I think this entire thread is B.S. because we all have opinions of what is correct. and in my opinion words can not change what we are or who we are.

Get over it and get along.

I love you all, regardless of what you call yourself or what your opinions are. I also respect your right to express your opinion, even if it hurts my feelings.

:flag2:

[MarieDelta]

No, this is not what it means. It means that we should not be trying to make everyone equal through legislative means. That, when we give to the government the responsibility of determining what is 'normal' and enforcing such a standard, that we will all ultimately pay a heavy price..
And I disagree, so?




No, it is not a privileged viewpoint.

I'm sorry to say this, but we are not all created equal. We have equal rights. That's about it. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I don't begrudge those that were. I have my challenges to overcome. I have many, many impediments to success. You wouldn't know about that because I don't bitch about it. I play the hand I'm dealt, and I try to deal with life's obstacles in the best manner I can.


The law does treat us all equally. Yes, there are issues where the law hasn't caught up to reality. And there is always improvement to be made. However, enforcing political correctness doesn't accomplish your stated goals. Neither, btw, do hate crime legislation.

I'm all about being effective. If it works, then I'm for it. If it doesn't, then I am not. Guess what? Four threads, now, and you have been wonderfully ineffective. Why is that? Manner of presentation, perhaps. Or possibly it's the squeaky wheel syndrome? Or possibly it's that there is a flaw in your starting premise?.

Its called discussion. I do have my own point of veiw and so do you. But I am listening & you are talking. Forum topics dont change legislation, in my opinion.


Since it's not my agenda, I don't care much which of those things it is. I leave that for you to figure out. But, I'll continue to tell you that this is mountain/molehill territory, especially when what you are doing does nothing to actually help TG issues. Women bitching about being called Mrs. didn't do a damn thing to help women's rights issues, either. No matter what your cause, stomping your foot down and insisting people change to suit your delicate sensibilities will only garner you (and therefor other's like you) derision and set back any progress. It makes you, and those like you, look like children whining that they didn't get their way. This is BAD not just for TG rights but for gay rights in general.

You'll note that I have not once called anyone a tranny, nor used the term except in reference to this thread. I'm all for being polite. You don't like the term. I don't use it in deference or reference to you. But in general? The term seems to serve it's purpose in identifying a person as what they are. But, for all that, I have not once been disrepectful, even by your own terms. So, if you disregard my post again as just me being a part of the straight community trying to take away your right to exist, I'll kindly tell you to blow it out your arse. I've been fighting the same fight. I just expect that my compatriots actually do things that are effective and not hurt the rest of us.

Have I disregarded your posts or insinuated once that you are part of the straight establishment? If so I appologize. I never said that you were or are disrespectful. If you got that idea, again I appologize.



Until these threads, I had never once heard that tranny is the TG equivalent to nigger. I somehow suspect that this is not really the case, and that a bigger deal is being made of it than is reality. I suspect that we have a minority within an already small minority making this an issue where no issue previously existed.

No one can offend you unless you allow them to.

Pasa



I dunno, its been on several boards that I post to and several blogs that I read, as far back as 1998 before that time I wasnt involved in any LGBT community, or online.

[darkeyes]

Until these threads, I had never once heard that tranny is the TG equivalent to nigger. I somehow suspect that this is not really the case, and that a bigger deal is being made of it than is reality. I suspect that we have a minority within an already small minority making this an issue where no issue previously existed.



Pasa

Calling a transsexual a tranny or shemale has long been considered the equivelant of calling a person a nigger or any other insulting epithet in many quarters Pasa. And where you are very wrong is that while in the minds of a majority no issue may exist, transsexuals are not a majority, and I doubt within the minds of the majority of them it is no issue. In their minds it existed, it exists and it will exist.. until it stops..

[Long Duck Dong]

Calling a transsexual a tranny or shemale has long been considered the equivelant of calling a person a nigger or any other insulting epithet in many quarters Pasa. And where you are very wrong is that while in the minds of a majority no issue may exist, transsexuals are not a majority, and I doubt within the minds of the majority of them it is no issue. In their minds it existed, it exists and it will exist.. until it stops..

in this site I see one trans member spitting the dummy over the term tranny... and about 3-4 saying they are not overly worried, as long as its not said to be directly offensive

I have seen a number of threads jumped on by one trans member with trans stats and * woe is trans * statements, yet I have seen a number of trans members talking with other members about every day life and issues, as people, not victims

what I have seen is a steady decline in the number of trans posters that I can talk with as people and a massive increase in post and threads by one trans person, jumping on dammed near any aspect of post or thread that doesn't involve some aspect of * poor trans *

that trans member may well want to emphasis the issues trans face... but its removing the rights and ability of other trans members to have a conversation in the forum that may involve words that one trans person is shitting bricks over and other trans are not worried.....

where is deafF2M
torontoguy2007
lorcan
danielle tremblay
melissa maven

and the rest of the trans members of the site.... that are now silent..... could they be like the rest of the site members that now realise its just easier and safer not to mention or refer to trans in any way shape or form..... and end up pushing trans people back into a corner in the darkness ???

whats worse, a single word that is not being used to offend, or the loss of the tg voice in the site and a ass chewing by one trans member

and do not try and play the * objectifying trans as sexual objects * card... as they are people too and have a right to be sexually expressive.... unless of course thats also offensive to a trans member.....

I will be dead honest.... I have had a gutsful of the double standards....

this is a prime example of it
" shemales / trans pornstars are victims and doing a job they hate in order to make money and transition so stop objectifying them as sex objects, but my hero is a FtM pornstar that is staying pre op cos it gets money and attention *

there is a bloody good reason why my trans friends have no joined the site like I asked them too, to raise the image and gathering of trans in the site.... they have seen some of the posts and threads and said no way in hell are they joining this site if they are going to get called trolls by another trans for not having a hypocritical / militant stance.....

sadly thats the loss of another 7 trans members cos of a single word.... tranny......

[darkeyes]

[QUOTE=Long Duck Dong;188477] I will be dead honest.... I have had a gutsful of the double standards....

QUOTE]

I hope you are not bloody accusing me of double standards Duckie, cos I will not stand for it.. I am sick to the back teeth of apologists refusing to listen without resorting the their stock expression "Political correctness" just so they can still enjoy their favourite terms to describe transpeople.. not out of respect however much they protest otherwise.. I know exactly where the double standards are and they are not mine and nor are they Marie's.

The example you give as a "double standard" is a very poor one, for we are about an extraordinary condition which for most pepople desperation is the name of the game. In this country, it is still (for now) possible to receive gender reassignment free of charge on the National health Service, but many cannot get this because of already stretched resources and other priorities and demands on its services.. and so people go private or abroad to enable them to become the person they truly are.

I am not surprised Transpeople stay out and away from this site and from certain LGBT groups.. they are about as welcome as fox in a henhouse.. I am also unsurprised that those who are members of this site keep their heads down.. they've seen how Marie has been treated and spoken to with such dismissive contempt.. certain LGB groups dont even want anything to do with Trans people and treat them every bit as badly as the str8 community, the worst of the str8 community treats any bay or bi person.. in some ways possibly worse.

And don't play the sexual objects card? FFS just listen to yourself.. just all of you listen to yourselves... I'm tired and off to bed before I say something I regret..

[Long Duck Dong]

poor example....??? I have been drawn and quartered over the example I used, by a person that holds the same type of person up as a hero in their eyes...

to me thats a case of * I say its wrong for others to see people that way, but its ok for me to do it, while slamming others for doing it "

if you look back thru my threads to when I first joined...and you will see threads when I spoke openly and honestly with respect with many of the people I named..... people I thought the world of... that are now silent.....

its not cos of the way they get treated.... unless one trans person calling other trans, trolls is now some how acceptable behievour, while playing the victim when others use a single term that many of us are not using offensively....

most of us use the term tranny as a shortened term for transgender / transsexual...... one person is screaming about how its a offensive word.....
should we stop using terms like GF ( girlfriend ) OP ( other person / original post/er ) as they are shortened terms and may be offensive to people....

we are not using it to be offensive, degrading or rude to trans people, many of us enjoy...fuck we love the company of trans people, in a platonic and sexual sense....... but when they see the site and see trans against trans they are immediately gonna think * WTF ?????*

not every trans is homeless, suicidal, offended by the words " tranny and shemale, unemployed etc.... and the US is not the only bloody country in the world......

I want to bring people to this site like nz's first trans police woman, and other trans with personal stories of growing up trans in NZ and how things like the civil union bill changed things for them ..... hell I would love to have georgina beyer in the site ( the worlds first trans policitian ) just to share her experiences as a trans person in a high profile role.....

but the trouble is they are seeing things like * poor marie * calling other trans * trolls *, and constantly protraying trans as undertrodden victims of society and the constant *trans are victims * stance in dammed near every thread and post to do with trans and how trans are offended.....

my trans friends are sick to death of that type of stance cos they are well adjusted, mature, intelligent people too, not victims, not homeless, not unemployed and able to share differing points of view from other parts of the world,..... something that the site could really benefit from.......

but no.... there is only allowed to be one voice speaking for everybody.... slamming anything not * poor trans * and constantly attacking their own......

its as I have said before, we often create the very issue we bitch about and in this case... its the way trans ( that actually reads as one person ) is treated..... cos the other trans that are people, not eternal victims, are being silenced by one of their own.....

there is a place in this site for marie and her opinions and stances and stats...etc.... but there is a place in the site for the other trans that are not offended, militant and eternal victims and they should be allowed that space too...... cos many of us actually want to talk with trans people about life, not just hear constantly about their issues and problems ....cos we have issues and problems of our own..... and many of us, find the body of a pre op, rather enjoyable..... and it can be nice for pre op trans to know they are attractive and that people see them as more than * freaks and sex objects *

but as has been demostrated, its only allowed to be one trans voice in the site and god help the other trans if they dare not * obey that voice and be offended * as they will be labelled trolls by one of their own.....

so much for the tolerance and acceptance of trans people, when one of their own is not demonstrating it, yet bitching about the lack of it

[darkeyes]

How would you know?

You are not Trans at all, and you are not black so it is all an assumption on your part and it is something that you know nothing about.



I know hun because I once considered myself bisexual.. for most of my adult life as it so happens, and most of my adolesence and was treated very often as an object of curiosity, ridicule and contempt, both verbally and physically.. I now consider myself a lesbian and still find myself treated with curiosity, ridicule and contempt.. whether I am bisexual or gay matters not... at times, by some people, I have been treated as a nigger.. and I know, because those few, and they are few, Trans friends tell me so.. what we call ourselves within our peer group is irrelevant.. it is whether, without our permission, others not of that peer group have the right so to do..

..and by the way... I have had it easy.. compared to the way gay and bisexual men get treated, and how they get called, and the ridicule, curiosity and contempt they get from many, I have it easy.. and I am also not a man, but please don't tell me I don't know about that..

..and gay and bisexual men have it easy compared to the Tran gendered.. and dont you dare tell me I don't know about that..

Let me give you an analogy. When I was younger, and very naughty, I allowed myself to get laid by guys I fancied, but who did not particularly fancy me.. my sexuality attracted them and possibly of what it could mean to their own sexual experience.. they didnt particularly respect me because I was "hot", and because I was openly bisexual and a "slut". It was easy pickings for me. I was an object and a great lay, and maybe even gain for them a nice 3 some or better... and sometimes did. Now I am openly lesbian I get much if not more of the same attention, I am still presentable and still considered "hot", but have matured enough and changed enough to know just what they are thinking and why they think I am "hot". Why my partner is "hot", and why some of my friends are "hot" and why str8 guys tour the city's lesbian and gay area in fucking droves. And it has fuck all, darling, to do with respect. I am a "hot" dyke.. we are "hot" dykes.. you see the similarity to what this is all about?

I live in a city in a country and on a continent which is remarkably tolerant and accepting of our kind, yet it does depend on our gender just how much so.. also what was our assigned birth gender..and it is also getting better and easier for us.. yet of all the groups within the lgbt which receives least acceptance, and least tolerance, an is most ridiculed is the trans gendered. because we in the lgb make it so as much as does str8 society..

I get angry and I get frustrated when I am told I know nothing.. I am mystified when people's experience is so dissimilar to mine, and people tell me that the same kind of people tell them different things that they tell me.. it is possible, I accept that, and no doubt is true much of the time, for we do not think alike and living in different cultures it is I suppose inevitable to some degree.

This thread has gone on far too long and has shown up a great geal of division within all factions within the lgbt movement. It reflects that division, and it reflects all of our own prejudices and at the same time our experience. It confirms me in these things above all else.. it tells me we are like babies and still have so much to do.. it tells me that we do not understand one another enough and that we do not respect each other enough.. that we are nothing other than a sickly reflection of sickly world at large..

[MarieDelta]

poor example....??? I have been drawn and quartered over the example I used, by a person that holds the same type of person up as a hero in their eyes...

to me thats a case of * I say its wrong for others to see people that way, but its ok for me to do it, while slamming others for doing it "

if you look back thru my threads to when I first joined...and you will see threads when I spoke openly and honestly with respect with many of the people I named..... people I thought the world of... that are now silent.....

its not cos of the way they get treated.... unless one trans person calling other trans, trolls is now some how acceptable behievour, while playing the victim when others use a single term that many of us are not using offensively....

most of us use the term tranny as a shortened term for transgender / transsexual...... one person is screaming about how its a offensive word.....
should we stop using terms like GF ( girlfriend ) OP ( other person / original post/er ) as they are shortened terms and may be offensive to people....

we are not using it to be offensive, degrading or rude to trans people, many of us enjoy...fuck we love the company of trans people, in a platonic and sexual sense....... but when they see the site and see trans against trans they are immediately gonna think * WTF ?????*

not every trans is homeless, suicidal, offended by the words " tranny and shemale, unemployed etc.... and the US is not the only bloody country in the world......

I want to bring people to this site like nz's first trans police woman, and other trans with personal stories of growing up trans in NZ and how things like the civil union bill changed things for them ..... hell I would love to have georgina beyer in the site ( the worlds first trans policitian ) just to share her experiences as a trans person in a high profile role.....

but the trouble is they are seeing things like * poor marie * calling other trans * trolls *, and constantly protraying trans as undertrodden victims of society and the constant *trans are victims * stance in dammed near every thread and post to do with trans and how trans are offended.....

my trans friends are sick to death of that type of stance cos they are well adjusted, mature, intelligent people too, not victims, not homeless, not unemployed and able to share differing points of view from other parts of the world,..... something that the site could really benefit from.......

but no.... there is only allowed to be one voice speaking for everybody.... slamming anything not * poor trans * and constantly attacking their own......

its as I have said before, we often create the very issue we bitch about and in this case... its the way trans ( that actually reads as one person ) is treated..... cos the other trans that are people, not eternal victims, are being silenced by one of their own.....

there is a place in this site for marie and her opinions and stances and stats...etc.... but there is a place in the site for the other trans that are not offended, militant and eternal victims and they should be allowed that space too...... cos many of us actually want to talk with trans people about life, not just hear constantly about their issues and problems ....cos we have issues and problems of our own..... and many of us, find the body of a pre op, rather enjoyable..... and it can be nice for pre op trans to know they are attractive and that people see them as more than * freaks and sex objects *

but as has been demostrated, its only allowed to be one trans voice in the site and god help the other trans if they dare not * obey that voice and be offended * as they will be labelled trolls by one of their own.....

so much for the tolerance and acceptance of trans people, when one of their own is not demonstrating it, yet bitching about the lack of it

I have volunteered in every town (from Medford, OR, Sacramento, CA, Merced, CA Modesto, CA, Fresno , CA, to Bakersfeild, CA & now Denver, CO) I've lived in. Been part of more than ten real life communities, helped start more than one. Talked to trans-folk from as far a way as Saudia Arabi, on line. Never once did I hear them say, "oh please call me a shemale & a tranny."

LDD, as far as double standards, look to the plank in your own eye.

Once again for the billionth time, I dont care what they call themselves. Get it?

However if you are too wrapped up in what you want to do , be my guest, look like an ass for all I care.

Now as far as the topic of this thread is concerned. If you want to use those terms, fine, I think its ridiculous to make yourself look like your daring or progressive in any way by excusing it with "political correctness" however.

[MarieDelta]

....

Somehow, I get the feeling you dont like me very much....

Oh and btw I like the way you've used me telling people about my own life as a weapon against me, very clever.

When you're on the ropes and it looks as though you're losing the argument, it looks so good to attack your opponent personally.

[MarieDelta]

BTW This:



I would suggest that you and your gf, sodomandgomorrah, use goggle to search for images of testicles as they are known as balls, man jewels and many other names.... now real men grow them naturally, we do not make them out of plastic and have them medical inserted... and nor do real men have inflatable dolls refuse to sleep with them either.....

Says a lot about how you view trans men.


And this is a pretty mysoginistic statement:



unless of course, you perfer to fight females, trans and absent members and then only in a group, like school bullies do.....

[DuckiesDarling]

Oh for crying out loud, Marie. What you quoted him saying was not in anyway dealing with anything to do with trans in the first and he was going after Sodom and Tenni for going after you, me and anyone else they feel doesn't fit the mould of bisexual.com.

Now isn't it time for the pity party to come to an end? You have stated again and again you don't care what others call people just what they call you. Fine. I think people are clear on that point but all anyone wanted you to realize is that until you are called something you have no right to tell others that they can't call someone what they choose to be called. You have a transperson coming into the thread stating they do not mind being called a tranny and you respond by calling them a troll. Why? Cause they don't agree with you? You can quote til you are blue in the face about how it offends you but it's not offensive til it's said TO YOU. You had the option to not read the thread yet you went on the offensive. One post would have been fine but it was miles and miles of quotes from other sites that all push the trans or nothing agenda.

I have never been around trans people but I have been around gays, bis and lesbians my entire life. I know they are just people no matter who they are sexual with. I had assumed the same about trans that you were just people. LDD has shared stories with me of his friends, the self proclaimed "trannie grannies" That's what they want to be called, they are transgendered. Are you trying to say they don't have the right to decide by what name they want to be called?

I'll tell you a true story. I had a couple friends who were close as brothers, one was white one was black. One day at the mall the white friend greeted the black friend with "What's up my nigga?" Some interfering busybody started reading him the riot act until the black friend set her straight. Told her he called his white friend "my honkey" because they are friends and they joke amongst each other. It wasn't even a loud greeting between them just this person had apparently been straining to hear our conversation as we sat in the food court devouring our Luca's pizza.

You can not read offense into every statement. You do not know the backstory and you can not supply one with your wounded pride. So please just drop it. Haven't enough people, including the trans that LDD mentioned, stopped posting here cause you can't say a fucking thing without it being twisted for someone's agenda?

[Realist]

Misogyny is the hatred of women.

A misogynistic person hates women........I didn't read that into LDD's comments.

But, maybe we ought to all back off and try to communicate without character assignations and derogatory rhetoric.

Lately, I've seen way too many temper tantrums and accusations being made. I don't know about everyone else, but I came here to learn about and experience, a community of those with like interests and thoughts, not discord!

Go ahead and fight it out, if you must........... but I choose not to participate; It's non-productive.

[MarieDelta]

Oh for crying out loud, Marie. What you quoted him saying was not in anyway dealing with anything to do with trans in the first and he was going after Sodom and Tenni for going after you, me and anyone else they feel doesn't fit the mould of bisexual.com.?

Do you not see it? He said real men grow their own balls. I was willing to let that slide, untill I was atacked personally.




Now isn't it time for the pity party to come to an end? You have stated again and again you don't care what others call people just what they call you. Fine. I think people are clear on that point but all anyone wanted you to realize is that until you are called something you have no right to tell others that they can't call someone what they choose to be called. You have a transperson coming into the thread stating they do not mind being called a tranny and you respond by calling them a troll. Why? Cause they don't agree with you? You can quote til you are blue in the face about how it offends you but it's not offensive til it's said TO YOU. You had the option to not read the thread yet you went on the offensive. One post would have been fine but it was miles and miles of quotes from other sites that all push the trans or nothing agenda.?
I went on the offensive because I see myself as having nothing left to lose. Either I get banned, or people stop using language that I find offensive. Either way is better than having to put up with it day after day.



I have never been around trans people but I have been around gays, bis and lesbians my entire life. I know they are just people no matter who they are sexual with. I had assumed the same about trans that you were just people. LDD has shared stories with me of his friends, the self proclaimed "trannie grannies" That's what they want to be called, they are transgendered. Are you trying to say they don't have the right to decide by what name they want to be called??
This is what bothers me the most. Being misquoted. Please see above. However, I do get tired of being reffered to in terms that arent to my liking. And as a member of the group of people to whom they are reffering (and it is my group of people ) it gets annoying. You all say it isnt, however being "transgendered" I get more than my share of people wanting to refer to me in that manner.




I'll tell you a true story. I had a couple friends who were close as brothers, one was white one was black. One day at the mall the white friend greeted the black friend with "What's up my nigga?" Some interfering busybody started reading him the riot act until the black friend set her straight. Told her he called his white friend "my honkey" because they are friends and they joke amongst each other. It wasn't even a loud greeting between them just this person had apparently been straining to hear our conversation as we sat in the food court devouring our Luca's pizza.

You can not read offense into every statement. You do not know the backstory and you can not supply one with your wounded pride. So please just drop it. Haven't enough people, including the trans that LDD mentioned, stopped posting here cause you can't say a fucking thing without it being twisted for someone's agenda?

I dont read offense into every statement. In fact I am usually quite willing to let things slide untill I feel I am attacked. At that point I can and will defend myself.

The "trans" person that joined posted in a way that makes me think they are
L3st4t, if they arent , I appologize. But I am not the only one who thinks that. That and their join date was precisely the day before that troll was banned. Coincidence? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

[DuckiesDarling]

Marie, read the post you quoted from LDD again. It was to Sodom and Tenni basically claiming they didn't have balls. If you are so concerned about his opinions on trans than go back through his old posts. You know the ones where he was congratulated by you and a lot of other trans for being right on the money. Or how about the one where he said a trans who didn't want to fully transistion would be "the love of his life" Statements that made me feel decidedly inadequate. He's since proven what I mean to him and laid those fears to rest but reading back over some of those statements that were before I was even a blip in his life hurt.

You are trying to paint him as transphobic he's not. He's lamenting the loss of the other posters like MelissaMaven and the fact his friends won't join this site because of what they see posted by one militant trans. You. That was not a personal attack that's a statement about what people are seeing. You don't need to be a member to read the posts and the posts where you launch all out wars at certain people for saying something you deem offensive is keeping other people from joining when they would bring a wealth of knowledge and experience to this site.

So just breath deep hon and let it go. Past time for this thread to die don't ya think?

[chook]

FIGHT YA BASTARDS.........I HATE PEACE :soapbox:


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[DuckiesDarling]

FIGHT YA BASTARDS.........I HATE PEACE :soapbox:


Cheers Chook :bigrin:

Don't you have a kangaroo shagging contest to referee? :bigrin:

[NotLostJustWandering]

I'm Trans and I do have it easy since I easily pass and I'm not feminine or flaming.

Time's up for you to pass for anything around here than the troll that you are.

Go get yourself a new identity. And get a writing coach if you expect to disguise yourself better next time. Or better yet, get a fucking life.

[transcendMental]

in this site I see one trans member spitting the dummy over the term tranny... and about 3-4 saying they are not overly worried, as long as its not said to be directly offensive

where is deafF2M
torontoguy2007
lorcan
danielle tremblay
melissa maven

and the rest of the trans members of the site.... that are now silent.....

You really know how to make a girl feel invisible. You see only one trans member upset over the word? Really? Could that be because you're only reading viewpoints that you feel you can attack effectively? Could it be that if someone writes a strong argument on a position with which you disagree that you just don't see that post?

[darkeyes]

I'm Trans and I do have it easy since I easily pass and I'm not feminine or flaming.



Really?? Fling on my old grans clothes on to my Uncle Charlie he would have no hassle either and look the part.. and he is certainly not feminine or flaming.. he is however 61.;)

[MarieDelta]

Remember this post:

As always, on this site, the more i read the more i come to hate it. There seems to be a general undercurrent that exists here of bullS**T. All those people happily announcing their Bi-Sexuality and how they are so glad to have found a site such as this but, on the same note, denouncing others (as the the quote above) and still others that use terms like "flamers" and " "queens", hurtful terms. I don't ask that anyone understands who, or what i am or how i came to be the way i am, all i ask for is a little tolerance as we try to understand one-another. Every time i pop on here i see a little more ignorance and others promoting the way THEY are as somewhat "supreme" or "more acceptable" while denouncing the rest of us. If you are Bisexual, then, by the "societal norms" there is something wrong with you. That's not me saying that, but society in general. Anyone who is "different" by mainstream standards has had to fight tooth and nail to press their rights and, every time i see a faint light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel seems to grow longer.

Getting back to the question at hand.....i really don't care what the person is, all i really look for is an attraction, simple as that. Now, if you feel incensed and want to attack me personally after this, go ahead. Try and make a case out of what i have written by saying i wouldn't date someone who is different in other ways or not up to my standards.

I think i may remove my profile sooner than later.......

Gee ya think what I've been saying might have some validity?

Nah couldnt be...

[MarieDelta]

Flex...

I have nothing against people who do identify as "she-male"... but, I've seen the term thrown around WAY too often when referring to MTFs. Men who want someone that looks like a woman but has a penis... are usually referring to someone who IS taking hormones and IS living life as a woman. This goes beyond simply cross-dressing and having a sexual life as a "woman.

This is to me, a stereotype that needs to be eliminated. It's not about being politically correct. I can't stand that term... to me, it's more about respect.

Those who call themselves "she-males"... I don't know why they favor that term, I really don't. I strongly feel it is dehumanizing and reeks of fetishist language. It's a sexual-based term and says really nothing about the person. It's like calling a woman an "it"

That's just my two cents. I have never understood why some people will identify as "she-male,"... and I will tell you this. I see it a lot more often by people who are trolling for sex than anything else. I rarely see it as a solid identity.. more of a tool to get laid.

It's like with me.. I'd never use "he/she" to refer to myself in order to get laid. It's not me.

I think the reason we do have such a knee-jerk reaction to posts like these is well, there's an awful lot of people who do not really understand the variances in gender identity and the complexity of our lives. As such, they use terms they are familiar with, after watching "tranny" porn. That's their "education" and it sucks. It's a common frustration of ours.. we are seeking terms that better define us and we have yet to come to an agreement on what language best works, that is positive, uplifting and personal.

Another on my side of the fence...

[MarieDelta]

BreeIsMe left because of other difficulties... which I will not speak of here, other than to say it has nothing one way or the other to do with this argument.

Lorcan hasnt been on site for a while, I dont know why and wont speculate, same with MelissaMaven (although I supect it had to do with her finding a BF, at least I hope that is the case.)

[MarieDelta]

LDD, you yourself said this:


I can understand that keliana

people tend to look at the trans / shemale / porn aspect and they fail to see the person.....thats something I notice a lot

its like the label removes the feeling, thinking, caring person behind the label

interestly enuf I have watched people over the years..... the only group that is seen as normal are the heterosexuals as they don't use a label to define themselves, but any group that does ( gay/les/bi/trans/intersex etc ) is seen as a sexual object, not a person

I have watched porn.. I don't find any enjoyment in it, but from a scientific / medical point of view, it was very informative for me, as I was able to view the differences of body structure between intersex, trans and * normal * people...
then when i spoke with intersex / trans people, when they talked about body changes, I was able to understand better, what they were referring to....lol
I don't have any other resource that gives me such a wide range of info...apart from surgery pics and articles

sad that so many people see porn as simply a sexual / visual thing to be enjoyed or abhorred....it can also teach us so much about people and their bodies, if its viewed with the interest of learning

[darkeyes]

Thats given me the best giggle Ive had for several days Marie me luffly..not least the lil bit bout heterosexuals not usin a label 2 define themsels.. how bout "normal" .. an' oooo nasty.. how 'bout "heterosexual"? O yea.. an the 1 forgotted 'bout.. "Straight"?:tong:

[DuckiesDarling]

Well since you spent so much time looking for things that out of context can be taken in different ways here are the two threads in specific I was referencing.

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2990

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2490

[Long Duck Dong]

ok marie, you have it your way, you want to twist what I said to tenni and S&G cos of their personal attacks on me and DD into something to support your own *woe is me * stance, then you go for it

so have it your way.... be the spokesperson for trans people in bisexual.com.... and tell everybody about how bad and hard it is for trans..... but remember one things..... not everybody is in the usa, and not everybody is a victim.....

yes marie, there is a world outside of the us.... sadly now, most of the site will never hear those stories, instead all they will see is your constant stories about poor trans...... and not about nz's first trans police woman and her story... nor about nz's first ( and the words first ) trans politician.....
nor the story of my friend that went to caught and won the right to transition as a teenager and is now a very happy lady

they are stories that could raise the image of trans people up from poor victims, to successful trans people and encourage people with the push in the usa for better treatment of trans people......

but I already know that its the same with the civil union bill in nz..... and when I got told that I need to drop it, cos its not about the USA and bis in the USA so I should stop talking about a victory with civil unions in another country.....

and that is how my trans friends in NZ now feel...... like they should never join the site and post, as they will be attacked as trolls and seen as victims and tragic cases and not allowed to be proud of who they are..... trannies

there are always two sides to the story..... its a shame that one will not be told by people from around the world, cos of a single trans in the usa

be proud marie, be very proud........

[Long Duck Dong]

You really know how to make a girl feel invisible. You see only one trans member upset over the word? Really? Could that be because you're only reading viewpoints that you feel you can attack effectively? Could it be that if someone writes a strong argument on a position with which you disagree that you just don't see that post?

no actually its cos I could not remember your name properly and you and me have spoken over the term * shemale *.... and I was wrong..

there are more trans people that I never mentioned as well


my problem is not so much over the word... its the way that some trans people that were going to join the site and booster the ranks and share a viewpoint from another part of the world, now refuse to join the site cos of the conduct of a trans member.....

it doesn't matter if marie was right or wrong about bucolic being a troll.... what my trans friends saw, was one trans member attacking another trans over a word.......and my trans friends have no issue with the word tranny unless its part of a personal and abusive attack on them.....which is rightly so........

so a couple of my friends said they could see no reason to join a site, and talk about their own stance... only to get attacked by one of their own.....

so transcend, again I will apologise for not including your name or addressing your stance..... but at the end of the day, my issue is not over the dislike of the word * tranny *... its the conduct that has caused potential trans members to take a long hard look at the site and refuse to join up......

that is something that is of concern to me..... as I do value my trans friends highly and I respect them highly too...... and I thought that bringing them to the site, would be a good move on behalf of the trans community in the site.....

strange how it was another TG person ( jeannie / jeannie TG ) that launched a personal attack on me and my partner and labeled me as anti LGBT......

now its marie labelling another trans person a troll ( tho it appears they were ) that has cost more trans members and support.......

so as I have stated in the site a while ago, this is one person that is very trans supportive, that will not be supporting trans in the site.... and now its extending to no longer suggesting to my bi friends and bi trans friends, to visit this site and join up...... cos I do not want to see my bi trans friends attacked as trolls all cos they are not worked up over a word.....

[MarieDelta]

Well since you spent so much time looking for things that out of context can be taken in different ways here are the two threads in specific I was referencing.

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2990

http://main.bisexual.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2490


Yes, I've read them. Thanks though.

[NotLostJustWandering]

I, too, feel this site needs more non-Americans. We tend to see less of the world than other people who have the means to travel do, and it shows. We have so much to learn from the perspectives of people from other countries. LDD, please tell your friends that Marie was correct in spotting the troll -- I think she was the first to feel sure about sheeit -- and was not just calling names because she disagreed with the troll's posts.

Marie, among the many views shared here I think there has been a near unanimous agreement on two things:

* we support your right to not be called by a term you find offensive, and that this a universal human right.
* we do not think you can speak for other TG people as to what terms are appropriate and which are offensive.

Given how much agreement has expressed on these two points it seems strange that you continue to argue. And the arguments are too laden with personal accusations; the level of hurt here is getting worse, not better, and more people are getting drawn into it.

There have also been some interesting thoughts on the broader issue of political correctness but I feel the discussion is getting derailed by the concurrent personal disputes. It's like two intertwined and poorly insulated electric wires screwing up each other's signals and reducing them to noise. I have my own thoughts on political correctness and a true story that illustrates what PC is to me, but I don't think this is the thread to share them in. Another time, perhaps.

[darkeyes]

May I just comment about the second of your two points Atiq.. Marie does not claim to be speaking on behalf of all Trans gendered people any more than I do for all lesbians or you for all bisexuals.. she is not an organisation nor is she speaking on behalf of a Trans gendered organisation and does not claim to be. Marie is but seeking to persuade both the non trans gendered and those who are trans gendered who may not agree with her to her point of view. That is all we as individuals can do.. and that is her right.

[Long Duck Dong]

May I just comment about the second of your two points Atiq.. Marie does not claim to be speaking on behalf of all Trans gendered people any more than I do for all lesbians or you for all bisexuals.. she is not an organisation nor is she speaking on behalf of a Trans gendered organisation and does not claim to be. Marie is but seeking to persuade both the non trans gendered and those who are trans gendered who may not agree with her to her point of view. That is all we as individuals can do.. and that is her right.

marie has refered recently to her and her group, her and her community, her and the trans community...... other people like me tend to refer to ourselves as individuals.....

now, I will say something.... when maries posting about *privileged * people..and how trans are finding it so rough.... I never posted the counter argument about how in NZ, trans have access to better health care and mental health support than I do.......

now the posting of the * priviledged * people articles by marie, were a real slap in the face to people like me.... as many of the mentally ill in NZ are not privileged, and in fact denied rights that are afforded to trans people in NZ......

now there is not a problem with marie trying to *persuade * people to see things her way..... but the fact remains that there is more than maries way, maries point of view and the country where marie lives.......

now a case is point is the hot shemale thread that was closed by drew..... was there any need for the posting of pics from porn sites with copied and pasted section of articles about how trans were homeless and bullied etc etc....

NO there was not.... yes there is a place in the site for maries point of view and maries opinion and maries stance, nobody can deny that... BUT there is also respect for the rights of other people to have a voice and a point of view and a opinion as well......

marie has made constant remarks about how she will not be shut down and I support that, but for gods sakes, does every dammed thread that may or may not mention trans, have to do thread jacked because marie has a agenda......

I will put it to you.... if the word * nigger * is so offensive... then why oh why is it so popular in rap and some groups ?.... its cos its rights of expressions..... expressions that we may not always agree with..... but its rights of expression all the same.....

so, lets use the first amendment, the freedom of expression here..... lets have maries threads and the threads of others that use terms of expression that marie has issues with...... and have a compromise that is balanced..... its called tolerance and respect....

that is as fair as anybody can be..... but it requires people to allow others the rights of expression that people hold dear, without telling others they may not have the same rights........

as for offence and being offended..... hell yeah I can be offended over maries posting of the priviledged people articles, cos when applied to nz people, they are incorrect.... yet... rather than be offended by it... I shrugged it off..... but it goes to show I can be offended by something that was never posted to offend me......

right.... so what about that compromise... marie allows others to express themselves in ways that she doesn't agree with.... and then she uses her own threads to share her own points of view and personal agendas..... ???

that would mean that marie is not shut down, others have the chance to express themselves as their desires..... it may remove a lot of the tension in the site.... and yes while some people may be offended by some things... they may realise that not every thing is posted to offend people.......

somehow tho, I get the feeling that its not gonna happen.... as all too often the people that are most vocal about respect and tolerance and compromise in the interests of all people, are generally the first ones to not give a inch and try to take a mile.......

[darkeyes]

The argument isnt about what transgendered people call themslves at all, Master Benson, it is whether those who are not transgendered have the right to call them by the pejorative names, and whether it is demeaning and insulting to them, lacking in respect and by doing so, whether this turns them into objects as opposed to human beings...

[darkeyes]

Duckie, Marie has addressed this issue as an individual. It may be that her views reflect those of any group or groups to which she belongs and she may or may not have said so, but it is not the group which has joined this site it is Marie as an individual. I have often reflected the views of groups to which I belong and occasionally, especially when I was in the Labour Party, said so, but those views could only be my own since the Labour Party or any other group of which I am a member have never joined this site.. there is no provision for them to do so. It is feasible I suppose for her or any member to make a statement or comment on behalf of a group with their permission or by their request, but I do not recall Marie or anyone else ever doing so. It is not something I would do, but thats me, and I can speak for no other.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Dunno...when you say things like 'when you attack my people' then it tends to indicate that you are intending to speak for those people. Just sayin.'

I think it's a sign of paranoia that LDD was defending Marie, and yet for two pages she's attacked him, and acted as if he were attacking her. It makes some sense, then, that this word has garnered 4 threads and 20+ pages. When you are that paranoid, everything looks to be an attack. And when you've been attacked often in the past, paranoia is a natural response. Watching the past week, I think this fits pretty well.

That said, context is everything. So is subtlety and the ability to distinguish intent, as well as connotation and denotation.

Pasa

[RockGardener]

Ok, everyone back to their corners!!

This whole mess started because someone used what was considered by some a rude word. Marie tried to use humor to gently remind people that it is not considered by some as a polite term. She was then reamed out for it, so she went on the defensive. This really does seem to have disintegrated into a thread and subject overall of "let's attack anything that Marie says". I'm tired of mopping up the blood!!

Hopefully, this is my final post on the subject. In the circles I am in, tranny is not a polite term for an everyday trans person. It is a term for a sex worker or porn star. Considering last week was Trans Awareness Week, I came in contact with many transsexual individuals, and not one of them likes being called tranny. That is my experience, the only experience I can speak from.

I think if the original poster from way back would have said "Yes, I want a tranny. I want that ideal from the porn I've been watching. I'm not talking about everyday trans women who are living their lives and trying to transition. I want the porn star who has breast implants and takes Viagra to get it up", everything would have been good. But instead, this became a game of attack Marie because she stated a point, that is what I believe, the opinion of the majority of the trans community. If even one person would have said "Marie, we're not talking about you. We're talking about porn stars and sex workers.", things would have been good. But it had to be, "All my friends are trannies and they like the word". This gives me the impression that your friends are porn stars and sex workers.

Just so people don't think all my trans experience and knowledge comes from Marie, it doesn't! I have been in and around the trans community for more than 25 years! I don't speak from a PC mindset, I speak from experience in the world, in three different states.

[Long Duck Dong]

rock

people refer to a aspect of the trans gender community by the terms they know best and that are most visual.... and most of the references are to pre op younger M2F trans people... which is what has a person interested......

now I have done the same thing, I have used the term *she male * in reference to a pre op F2M trans person ( and I stated it clearly too ) and was told that they do not exist and that they are not really trans if they do not transition..... by marie that has posted the trans umbrella that covers everything from post op to CD/TV people.....

then I got the big story about the porn industry etc etc and how its degrading to trans and humiliating and that trans people do not want to stay in the porn industry and not transition, but instead, use their bodies for money....... and then what do i see..... marie posting about how buck angel is her hero...... buck angel, the pre op trans person that is working in the porn industry and has stated that they do not want to transition cos people want to fuck a male with a pussy and its good money

so honestly rock.... are you surprised at peoples reactions now... we have tried to work around marie and be understanding and accepting and obligating.... but its a lil rude when marie is doing a reversal when it comes to herself.....

its like somebody saying the term * nigger* is wrong, offensive and degrading, then greeting their friends in the forum and saying * watsup ma nigger *

that is why I am now calling for a compromise..... cos people want to talk about *shemales and trannies " cos they are interested in them.... and marie wants to have her stance and opinions too..... so lets make room for them both......

yes the terms can be offensive to some people.... but people are not posting to offend people, they are posting about a interest ( sexual or otherwise ) in a sex site......
and if thats wrong and turning trans in to sexual objects then we also better lay down a rule in the site that posting about males and females, threesomes etc should also not be posted about as it is turning people into sex objects......

there is a simple rule of thumb, if you do not want to be treated like a sex object, don't associate with people that want a sex object........ but be realistic, you are in a sex site with people looking to hook up and a lot of them do not care about manners or respect, they care about sex and getting laid......

[Realist]

Raquel,

Here's the way I look at it: Everyone possesses with different idiosyncrasies. What really irritates one person, may have no affect, whatsoever, on someone else.

Like you, I am usually not very sensitive at all....even on subjects I feel passionately about, I allow for everyone else's opinions. Whether, or not, they agree with me, really won't change how I feel about it.

Others may extremely sensitive. Even though I often don't understand the severity of their feelings, I still respect them and try to use less offensive terms, when dealing with them.

When in a group, like this, I try to be respectful of each person by being respectful, considerate and open-minded.

Even if I don't like a person, or a particular attitude, I will try to avoid mindless retaliation.

It's best to move on, if an agreement can't be made, and forget it.

[wanderingrichard]

Marie,
Stick with manners and Golden Rule. PC is just b.s. used to impose the will of the manipulative on the masses. LDD pretty much hit it on the head there in post 2 as well as coyote_dude a few posts later.

btw, i deal with insulting manipulative and pc people every day. most i just ignore because to respond at their level, just stokes their ego. those i can't ignore, i've learned to minimize by only having immediacy of need relationships with. makes things easier for me, but frustrates the hell out of those who want to drag me into their alternate reality.

bottom line, they only win if you let them