terms for....., and "educating privileged" bisexuals.

[tenni]

In another thread (wife wants to watch me and a tranny) a poster asks about his wife being interested in watching him with a transwoman. The thread has been more or less co opted over an argument about the term "tranny" and its offense to transexuals. One transexual has seen it as her role to "educate" we unworthy ones. I think that she referred to "us" non transexuals as "privileged". She argues about the inappropriateness with rabid fevour to the point of using a term "privileged" for those of us who are happy with our gender that we are born with??? That in itself seems inappropriate or at least most strange. Once again, her purpose in being on this site is to "educate" and prostelitize about transexuals much more so than bisexuality itself. I do wish to use the less offensive term but....

Would she and other please start new threads whenever they want to debate the appropriateness of such terms rather than buggering up the thread of the man who mistakenly used the "incorrect" term?

[swmnkdinthervr]

I am forever amazed at how "we" all seem to feel as though our lot in life is always worse than the next persons. Your post points to how one persons perception of how bad they have it and how "we" should all be educated mucks up the rest of the thread. Seems a little codependent of them that they feel they should set our thinking right!!!

"We" are all fortunate in more ways than we take time to appreciate...we might even see that if we weren't so caught up in the "woe is me" one-up-man-ship of how terrible the world treats me/us!!!

I am one of the few either lucky or wise enough to have an understanding and interested wife. I doubt however she would be interested EVER in dealing with the apparent drama required to explore with a "transsexual, girl, woman or whatever label is appropriate" regardless of the role gender plays.

As bisexuals we have all to some degree experienced the homophobic attitude of both the vanilla world and of the "lifestyle" in our pursuit of understanding/acceptance! Aren't we ALL in pretty much the same boat here? (again gender notwithstanding)

[Drkluvtheory99]

I for one am a FtM transgender. I dont really have an issue with words being used that could be offensive. They are words in that. If you have a problem with the word that someone said take it up with them privately instead of takin up the thread space on debates. I posted and someone was disrespectful and I let it go. One person ignorance is there ignorance everyone doesnt think, see, or speak the same. Respect individuality point blank done.

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

So why is there such a big fervor now about a person's point of view?? Just because it doesnt match yours, doesnt mean that it isnt right for Her and for others. Its different for each person, and for some folks the Way the term is thrown around is derogatory. Its slang, and most slang is used in a low classed manner. Some Trans-folk may not have a prob with the terminology, just like other folks of other ethnicities have no prob with someone slanging Thier terminologies.
And the reason you Guys dont have a prob with it and can use it so loosely is because You yourselves are Not Trans-folks. Its like anyother ethnicity, like being called a Wop, a Spick, a Mick, a Prairie Nigger, or what the hell ever.
It is Offensive to Some folks. And if Marie wants to set the record straight, then who are You to say differently???
Cat, not nice when sick.

[Wrenn]

Is the term "privileged" polite when referring to cisgender? For some reason I was rather taken aback by it's usage.

[tenni]

Cat
The person went far beyond setting the record straight with one post. As a poster above wrote that he is transgendered and has decided not to go on if someone writes something like this. She entered into an argument on a thread that had a completely different purpose. The OP had a question or concern. She should have started a new thread.

She kidnapped the purpose of the thread to her own transgender political agenda and went on and on with post after post in an argument and prostelitizing with the fevour of an Evangelist(ok..slight exaggeration..:eek: :bigrin:). To make it more strange she calls bisexuals that are not transgendered "privileged"...such BS one sided political nonsense. She rants on about name calling and the turns around and name calls bisexuals who are happy with their birth gender...wtf? As I wrote on the thread, she attempts to lay guilt down as well if not better than a Catholic priest talking to a sinner...:tong: We are suppose to write ...oh my you poor dear...we are so sorry for your plight...post on sweetie...even if you kidnap a thread go ahead.

Where is your sympathy/empathy for the poor bugger who had his thread stolen Cat?

[DuckiesDarling]

Everyone will always have problems with certain terms for different reasons. For example the OP of this thread has a problem with people referring to people who sleep with others for money as a prostitute. Legal terminology and widely used around the world. He would prefer they be called sex trade workers.

The thread in question could have had one post and people moved on but a few had to go on the attack to the transwoman and she defended her point.

Life would be easier if on a site like this people could either just get along or use the ignore function.

Most of the times when a person is offended by a word it is because it was used disrespectfully to them in some form or fashion. I'm sure no disrespect was intended to any of the transmen and transwomen on this site when the thread was posted.

[Realist]

I know from experience that things, said in certain circles, that may be considered OK in that circle, however, it may be offensive in a different location.

If I was in a location, other than where I was raised, I would observe others' manners, language, and attitudes, then make a reasonable effort to get along by not using terms that may offend.

Even though I have been bisexual all my life, I know nothing about many sexual variations. I've just never had any contact with anyone other than a few gay, or bisexual people. I'm still confused about who and what is what.

But, if I was to meet anyone like that, I'd ask them what they prefer to be called. From then-on, if I was in a conversation about that subject, that is the term I'd use.

Maybe I'm not as sensitive as some; words don't have nearly the same impact on me as actions do.

It does seem to me that tempers have been elevated, when a simple lesson on appropriate terms would suffice.

If a person is going out of their way to be irritating, then that's a different issue, to me.

[MarieDelta]

Privilege is: About how society accommodates you. It’s about advantages you have that you think are normal. It’s about you being normal, and others being the deviation from normal. It’s about fate dealing from the bottom of the deck on your behalf.


I have white priveledge, it isnt something that I earned. Cat doesnt have white priveledge and may not have access to some benefits that I enjoy. We all have pirveledges that others do not. Being cisgendered you have way more priveldeges and rights than I do, even in Canada. (http://www.jessicapettitt.com/images/Cisgender_Privilege_Checklist.pdf) You , tenni , have male priveldge something that neither Cat, nor I, have access to. o those who argue that these do not exist , remember I have spent 3/4 of my life living as a white straight male. to say that I have no idea what it is like, well that would be just foolish.

Consider that there are very few states that have any sort of protection for gender identity or expression. That is I can be fired and evicted for being transsexual in 39 out of 52 states, with no legal recourse.


Now, in the thread under discussion I tried to use humor to educate , however, I got jumped on by some folks. Therefore I am undertaking it as a protest. If you dont like it, simply do not read it and/ or post to it.

[MarieDelta]

Cat
The person went far beyond setting the record straight with one post. As a poster above wrote that he is transgendered and has decided not to go on if someone writes something like this. She entered into an argument on a thread that had a completely different purpose. The OP had a question or concern. She should have started a new thread.

She kidnapped the purpose of the thread to her own transgender political agenda and went on and on with post after post in an argument and prostelitizing with the fevour of an Evangelist(ok..slight exaggeration..:eek: :bigrin:). To make it more strange she calls bisexuals that are not transgendered "privileged"...such BS one sided political nonsense. She rants on about name calling and the turns around and name calls bisexuals who are happy with their birth gender...wtf? As I wrote on the thread, she attempts to lay guilt down as well if not better than a Catholic priest talking to a sinner...:tong: We are suppose to write ...oh my you poor dear...we are so sorry for your plight...post on sweetie...even if you kidnap a thread go ahead.

Where is your sympathy/empathy for the poor bugger who had his thread stolen Cat?


Where did I name call?

Quote the text, or stfu

And I dont want your sympathy , not a drop, its not worth a whit to me.

I want you to quit using terms that I deem offensive to refer to me and those like me.

If you are so dense as to see that , then perhaps you are less intelligent than you think you are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDCs3lmyvP4

[MarieDelta]

One more thing, I didnt start that thread.

Nor did I start this one. I dont want to have to argue this BS, but I wont be quiet about it , either. I've been shut up and shut down on this board before, its not going to happen again.

Now tenni, I realize that you think this is your own private board, however as long as I obey the TOS, I can post here.

Until Drew decides to ban me.

So get used to it. I'm queer and I'm here.

Dont like it? Place me on ignore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPVuZU_QBC8

[MarieDelta]

In another thread (wife wants to watch me and a tranny) a poster asks about his wife being interested in watching him with a transwoman. The thread has been more or less co opted over an argument about the term "tranny" and its offense to transexuals. One transexual has seen it as her role to "educate" we unworthy ones. I think that she referred to "us" non transexuals as "privileged". She argues about the inappropriateness with rabid fevour to the point of using a term "privileged" for those of us who are happy with our gender that we are born with??? That in itself seems inappropriate or at least most strange. Once again, her purpose in being on this site is to "educate" and prostelitize about transexuals much more so than bisexuality itself. I do wish to use the less offensive term but....

Would she and other please start new threads whenever they want to debate the appropriateness of such terms rather than buggering up the thread of the man who mistakenly used the "incorrect" term?

My purpose here is to make friends. You do not know me and I have never seen you in chat here. I have two lovers -one female and one male- that I have met here, and many friends. Do not presume that you understand my purpose on these boards.

[darkeyes]

I defer to Marie on this not because she is my friend which she is, but because she is a transwoman, and she more than any of us know what is offensive to Transpeople.. I am a lesbian and know what sets me off when referred to disparagingly or thoughtessly. Certain terms, I agree, I use to describe my lesbianism or my historical enjoyment of my sexuality.. but my and my friends use of these terms, invariably in a humourous manner, as opposed to the use of these terms either by people who are not in my circle of friends, or not of my sexuality, my sex, or have had a history similar to mine, or by those in society in general are considered terms which are abusive, contemptuous and disrespectful.. they are meant as words to describe one who is considered not normal, not one of us, an abomination or a whore and simply not respectable in society, the terms "tranny" and "she male" certainly fall into any or all of those categories.. they are meant to hurt and demean..

[void()]

I agree there is nothing wrong with courtesy and respect. This situation reminds me of a story.

One of our coaches in high school played football in college. The team stopped in at a burger joint in the deep South. One of the ladies at the counter was overheard to say, "we don't serve niggers here."

The young black man preparing to order didn't miss a beat, "that's fine I was really hoping to just get a burger, lady. If you're all out of niggers just give me a double burger instead."

That was the story related to us by the coach.

Life has not always been the kindest to me. So, a few good people in it guided me toward reading, writing. Mom encouraged a ravenous vocabulary for me. Teachers did as well. And in growing up, I kept being told "know what you say, say what you mean, and mean what you say." As such I knew early on that a nigger could be of any nationality, ethnicity, religion, creed, gender. Anyone, anywhere in any situation can be a nigger.

To me the word is taken from the dictionary meaning of someone who is common, trash, filth. And there are quiet a few out here on this forum. If the shoe fits, ...

Often people here do frustrate me with their ideas, or what they say. Most of the time, I simply pass it on by without comment. Life is too damn short and precious to waste on petty anger. What does permeate this veil though, is when folks start abasing friends.

I might let you beat me with a sledge hammer all day long, fine, go right ahead. Start trouble with one of my friends, no. No. No! That hurts too much. And it probably hurts me so much because I genuinely care, love friends. They are but few whom I call friend. And once they are a friend they remain so eternally, same as adversaries.

It especially hurts seeing friends tearing one another to ribbons. Short and simple. "You kids work it out and play nice. Don't make me stop this car. If I do, someone is gonna walk the rest of the way."

[darkeyes]

Everything hinges on what one considers petty anger Voidie me luffly...;)

[darkeyes]

o yea.. and tenni darling... none of these arguments are about educating privileged bisexual or privileged anything else.. it is about trying to somehow get everyone and anyone to understand... a kind of education but an important one...

[void()]

Everything hinges on what one considers petty anger Voidie me luffly...;)

True, perspective is everything, it is said. Of course, it is also said perception may be altered by will. This being something I oft stumble over as well. (sigh)
Maybe, one day I will soar away from this misery laden rock.

"We be gone. Work, work, work ... only a little play, same day, too."

[cliffordmontero]

From where I stand, having not read the original thread, it appears as though there is a large difference of view here. One person is upset over the apparent hijacking of a thread, another of the apparent insensitivity to what they feel is a derogatory term. Okay, I get that.

Good job starting a new thread to discuss this. No offense MarieDelta, but your "tranny" is no different than a gay mans "faggot" or a black mans "nigger". You may take offense, and find it grossly inappropriate, but others embrace the term and make it their own. I have several transgendered friends, in various positions along their preop to postop journey. Each of them views the terms commonly used in the American vernacular differently. And much like African Americans calling each other "nigger" and homosexuals calling each other "mary" or "girlfriend" or as one of my friends refers to her gay friends as "the gaggle of faggles", you simply can't change the vernacular of the world. You can be offended all you want. But just as it is inappropriate for someone to paint all people of a common traight with a stereotype it is inappropriate for you to paint people as privledged.

I am a bisexual. I endure the straight community calling me a faggot.
I am a bisexual. I endure the gay community calling me confused.
I am mixed race. I endure community at large calling me a mutt.
I am from a trailer park. I endure the community calling me trash.
I many things, day in and day out, that I never chose to be.
Were you to approach me in public I appear to be a white middle class male, supposedly the most privledged of all.
I appear that way because I strive to be more that what I was labeled.
I am many things, as are you.
If people insist on labeling you, strive to be the best you can, because then that label, through you, means something better.
And for Gods sake, if you don't want to be labeled, don't label others.

[tenni]

o yea.. and tenni darling... none of these arguments are about educating privileged bisexual or privileged anything else.. it is about trying to somehow get everyone and anyone to understand... a kind of education but an important one...

darkeyes. This is about "educating the privileged bisexuals" cuz that is what Marie stated that she was doing. She got the message across about the word being offensive to her long ago in her first post. Some bought it and some didn't. Then the rambling "educating" and debate started and the OP's plight was pushed aside. darkeyes, it was your continuing to discuss the term and Marie's last reply to my question about her long, yellow highlighted, incoherent ramblings that made me start this thread...so you were kinda a little out of place in not recognizing that you were a co opter-assistant kidnapper of a thread. I believe that you have stated in other threads that you accept the organic flow of some threads.... What was happening with your help was a hijacking of a thread and not an organic process. There was a great deal of inconsideration to the OP's plight. Pity. Its was just plain rude and inconsiderate of you to do so my luvly.

[tenni]

Marie
In your posts on this thread, I do not read an explanation why you thought that you had the right to co opt another poster's thread? Although he made a mistake in chosing the word "tranny" that doesn't give you the right to kidnapped his thread and place your issue as more significant that his.

"If you do not like it don't post on it?"
You write that but co opt kidnap someone else's thread? Why not take your own "advice" and start your own thread? If you didn't like the word posted , don't post on his thread. Were you just a bit too much of a zealot to see your rudeness to the OP?

I have posted several times that I prefer to use the term that a person who is of that group wishes us to use. Get it! I didn't use "tranny" so stop referring to me as "you" in your post as if I support the use of "tranny". I was the one pointing out that "sex trade worker" was the term that "prostitutes" in Canada prefer to be called. We still have some insensitive people saying that it is not important or that it is not universal enough for them. We can not educate every backwater boor who refuses to be sensitive to others who prefer to be called "sex trade worker" or "transgendered" rather than "hooker/prostitute" or "tranny". My argument with you is not about your position but how you post and co opt threads with your political agenda.

Secondly, I asked you to clarify about your multi, incoherent, rambling propaganda posts that you posted in yellow. I write that they were incoherent not because of the propaganda content but how you presented them. That's a very poor attempt to educate imo.

I know you Marie from your posts. I may not "know" where you live or who you have sex with. We each know each other from our posts. So be "queer" and expect some of us not to buy into your GLBT political propaganda. You give me the impression that you believe that you are "better" than us because you buy into the GLBT political propaganda and some of us chose not to.

"Privileged bisexuals" I'm declaring that a name calling perjorative against cisgender men/women just as you declare "tranny" as name calling against transgendered men and women. It seems that a few other bisexual men find your use of the word as perjorative as well. It reminds me of the term "Breeder" that some gay men use to refer to heterosexuals in a perjorative manner when they talk amongst themselves. You didn't mean it as a compliment or if you did..you failed. To you; we are cisgendered. To us; we are men and women. Your world is not most of our world.

I just do not buy the guilt attempts that you seem try to lay on us on this site. Maybe you put too much "salt" into the stew of your edjamacation?:( If you are educating, you are doing a poor job appealing to us through attempts to create guilt. Oh, and your initial attempt to use humour "tranny" =transmission failed for me. It came across as smug and condescending towards someone's lack of understanding over the word "tranny'. Do you really believe that the OP meant to be rude and offensive to transwomen or that he simply didn't know that he was being offensive to you? A simple statement that as a transwomen you find the word "tranny" to be offensive to you might have been more appropriate. If an argument followed, as I said, start a new thread. I understand as some have stated that your patience is growing thin though. You seem to be immersed in something that prevents you from seeing your rudeness to others.

[darkeyes]

darkeyes. This is about "educating the privileged bisexuals" cuz that is what Marie stated that she was doing. She got the message across about the word being offensive to her long ago in her first post. Some bought it and some didn't. Then the rambling "educating" and debate started and the OP's plight was pushed aside. darkeyes, it was your continuing to discuss the term and Marie's last reply to my question about her long, yellow highlighted, incoherent ramblings that made me start this thread...so you were kinda a little out of place in not recognizing that you were a co opter-assistant kidnapper of a thread. I believe that you have stated in other threads that you accept the organic flow of some threads.... What was happening with your help was a hijacking of a thread and not an organic process. There was a great deal of inconsideration to the OP's plight. Pity. Its was just plain rude and inconsiderate of you to do so my luvly.

Sometimes tenni dear, whatever the subject matter of a thread, words are used which irk, annoy and get up the hackles.. and as with any debate of this kind things begin to be said which alter the subject matter..to describe Transgendered people in a properly constituted debate with a presiding chair things can quickly be brought back on to the subject of the debate, but in a poperly constituted debate within any reputable organisation certainly in this country.. the words "tranny" and "she male" would be quickly ruled out of order in the first instance and quite rightly too.. unless the topic was about the acceptability or otherwise of the words in question.. but we have no chair to preside over debate and so things I'm afraid do often go haywire, which is the way it is..

Was I rude and inconsiderate? Possibly.. although I do not consider myself as such, but if others do then my apologies for my rudeness and inconsideration... but if I was rude and inconsiderate, not half as rude and inconsiderate as those who continue to use the expressions in question to describe the transgendered.. I remain with Marie in this and make no apology whatever for that because I believe her to be in the right... and tenni darling? There is absolutely nothing wrong in pursuing a political or any other kind of agenda in these forums... most of us do it to some degree, sometimes inappropriately in the wrong place at the wrong time but that is the manner of these forums.. and very often makes them the more interesting and pertinent for all that.. and I will add this... any topic which is raised which uses words which people find inappropriate, don't be surprised if others do just as Marie has done... they may or may not be right in doing so, but such is the world of freedom of speech and expression in these forums I'm afraid.. for good or ill, or excepting in the case of Drew's ire when he takes away the ball and/or in football parlance shows us a "red card".. we are all lumped with that..

ps.. don't underestimate me tenni.. I knew exactly what I was doing when I began to enter the debate and when I continued to contribute in the manner I did..

[tenni]

darkeye
Yes, I consider that you were rude to the man who started the thread by continuing to support a discussion unrelated basically to the man's plight. I'm left to believe that you decided that his "issue" was not as important as your friend's issue about the use of a word. Is it because he is only a "lesser mortal"? ( I hope not)

You/we may suppport a political position but not kidnap a thread away from a man's question without accepting that you are being inconsiderate and rude to him. Now you know that I love a good debate where opposing sides are polite and remain on topic. I don't care what the issue is when someone diverts the thread topic to the point of dismissing a person's question or issue the rest of us should ask them to start a new thread. I know that some of us try to keep that in our mind when discussing/debating on this site. Can we not moderate each other when someone goes way off topic and is inconsiderate to the OP question? I keep reading that this is the site where bisexuals may ask for advice and opinions and is so supportive? Or is that only applying to selected individuals that someone deems worthy? Several posters tried to bring it back to the OP and commented on the OP's concern but Marie, you etc. kept diverting it away from the OP's issue.

Now, Marie started the diversion and yes the person who entered into an argument was almost as wrong as she was. "Almost" is not the same as mainly responsible for diverting a thread from its intended purpose. So, two slaps on the hand for Marie and one slap for the person who began to argue with her. You? Just a little "now now, m luffly let's get back on topic"...lol

UNLESS

So, you are telling me that you knew exactly what you were doing? You did not consider the man's question worth being discussed on his own thread? This is not my perspective of how I thought that you saw justice and fairness?

[Paragon]

I am pretty thrilled about being a man. And for a lot more reasons than just because I get to have penetrative sex with women. When I realized I was jealous of my wife when she went down on me I did something about it...with her urgent approval.

I would hate to have to be a woman or a man that wanted to be a woman.

[MarieDelta]

Marie
In your posts on this thread, I do not read an explanation why you thought that you had the right to co opt another poster's thread? Although he made a mistake in chosing the word "tranny" that doesn't give you the right to kidnapped his thread and place your issue as more significant that his.

"If you do not like it don't post on it?"
You write that but co opt kidnap someone else's thread? Why not take your own "advice" and start your own thread? If you didn't like the word posted , don't post on his thread. Were you just a bit too much of a zealot to see your rudeness to the OP?

I have posted several times that I prefer to use the term that a person who is of that group wishes us to use. Get it! I didn't use "tranny" so stop referring to me as "you" in your post as if I support the use of "tranny". I was the one pointing out that "sex trade worker" was the term that "prostitutes" in Canada prefer to be called. We still have some insensitive people saying that it is not important or that it is not universal enough for them. We can not educate every backwater boor who refuses to be sensitive to others who prefer to be called "sex trade worker" or "transgendered" rather than "hooker/prostitute" or "tranny". My argument with you is not about your position but how you post and co opt threads with your political agenda.

Secondly, I asked you to clarify about your multi, incoherent, rambling propaganda posts that you posted in yellow. I write that they were incoherent not because of the propaganda content but how you presented them. That's a very poor attempt to educate imo.

I know you Marie from your posts. I may not "know" where you live or who you have sex with. We each know each other from our posts. So be "queer" and expect some of us not to buy into your GLBT political propaganda. You give me the impression that you believe that you are "better" than us because you buy into the GLBT political propaganda and some of us chose not to.

"Privileged bisexuals" I'm declaring that a name calling perjorative against cisgender men/women just as you declare "tranny" as name calling against transgendered men and women. It seems that a few other bisexual men find your use of the word as perjorative as well. It reminds me of the term "Breeder" that some gay men use to refer to heterosexuals in a perjorative manner when they talk amongst themselves. You didn't mean it as a compliment or if you did..you failed. To you; we are cisgendered. To us; we are men and women. Your world is not most of our world.

I just do not buy the guilt attempts that you seem try to lay on us on this site. Maybe you put too much "salt" into the stew of your edjamacation?:( If you are educating, you are doing a poor job appealing to us through attempts to create guilt. Oh, and your initial attempt to use humour "tranny" =transmission failed for me. It came across as smug and condescending towards someone's lack of understanding over the word "tranny'. Do you really believe that the OP meant to be rude and offensive to transwomen or that he simply didn't know that he was being offensive to you? A simple statement that as a transwomen you find the word "tranny" to be offensive to you might have been more appropriate. If an argument followed, as I said, start a new thread. I understand as some have stated that your patience is growing thin though. You seem to be immersed in something that prevents you from seeing your rudeness to others.

I post because it concerns me and my community.

Where does this concern you?

As far as being priveledged , you have priveledge, even if you dont acknowledge that you do.

You Have An Agenda

A close relative of the tactic used above, use this one in a similar fashion, implying that the Marginalised Person could never be speaking from a position of integrity or with pure intent because they have "an agenda".
Popular for use in discussions about homosexuality, for example: "the gay agenda" - the claim that gay people's fight to be recognised is simply a desire to "recruit" people into the "gay lifestyle" and turn them "against" the "wholesomeness" of heterosexuality, but it is versatile - also apply it to women's rights, groups advocating for religious tolerance & diversity and for trans* folk!

In this way you get to both undermine them as a human being and further subject them to discrimination through your paranoia and refusal to take them seriously. After all, if you characterise their struggle for acceptance and equal rights as acts worthy of a comic book supervillain, you further dehumanise and demoralise them and this will strengthen your position.

Ultimately, you can simply dismiss out of turn any and all of their points, no matter how valid, because you can just proclaim that they: "have an Agenda!"

As far as being better than you because I beleive in certain things, no , I dont believe that.

I do believe that lying to people is wrong, especially people that we swore vows to honor, but each of us must live with his or her own conscience.

I believe that being a jerk, makes you a jerk.

I believe that the truth will out.

I believe that what goes around comes around.

I believe in fair play and honesty.

I believe that I am as good a person as you, and deserving of the same treatment and respect as you are.


[i believe]
A Declaration of Independence
©2001 Alix Olson.


i believe misogyny and patriarchy are closet homo lovers
and they screw over their sisters cause they’re scared to screw each other.
i believe harriet tubman should be on the dollar bill
we’ve had our fill of white boy faces
time to change places.
i believe hilary, not bill, should have worn the crown
they could have learned from jack and jill
which one would break it and fall down.
i believe there are too many lonely lesbians looking for a lover
and if some would lift their cool masks maybe they would find each other.
i believe people and products both need less packaging
cause bullshit is still bullshit when you pull off all the wrapping.
i believe people are see-through
if you hold em up to the light
i believe people are enlightening
if you plug em in right.
i believe our system is a love affair between the up and upper classes
cause it’s easy to get screwed when you’re just raping all the masses
i believe diet coke is liquid steel
i believe too many women
drink their meal.
i believe in survival of the fittest--
if you’re ranking members of a gym
but if you’re talking about the human club, you gotta let everybody in.
i believe you should learn more than one language
you should learn to talk in tongues and lips
i believe in nipples and skin and toes and hips.
i believe in noise from teeth and throats
and cunts
the noise of poetry, music, laughter, after screaming cunnilingus.
i believe women are sexy
without makeup or clothes
i believe women are sexy
when they’re reciting prose
i don’t believe in horoscopes,
fortune, fate, luck, or chance
i believe sometimes shit works out
just cause of circumstance.
so i believe if you call the wrong number
you should talk for a while
you might like em more than
who you meant to dial.
i believe small talk is for small people
who have nothing much to say
if you really think it’s so nice out,
shut up and go enjoy the fucking day
i believe wall street invented
the criminal mentality
the easter bunny laid
mandatory heterosexuality
i believe mutual masturbation makes a lot of sense
i don’t believe in a white picket fence
i believe in picking fights and picketing riot dykes
i believe in loving in groups,
i believe in loving alone.
i believe in hardship, in travelling
through hard shit
then i believe in coming home.
i believe some wives find their husbands boring
and they picture women naked
while those boys are snoring
i believe men need to revolutionize
themselves or they’ll see
all those wives kissing jill sobule and me.
i believe there are more buttons
and more clever bumper stickers every day
and less and less sticking
to what they have to say
more recycling of garbage,
more recycling of cash
it all ends up in the same bin --
with all the white corporate trash.
i believe there are too many babies
and too many weddings and too many headings
that started with Monica
i believe post-gay is presumptious
just plain gay functions.
i don’t believe in ex-gay
i believe trent lott should be b.b. gun-shot
ex-punged from this term before
the thousand years he’s got left
i believe barbie should be used in anatomy class
as a perfect bag of bones
then taken to biogenetics
as an argument against clones.
i believe cell phone culture is ridiculous
imprisoning us in the cell of a social fetish
i believe baby dolls should have realistic clits.
so baby dykes can start getting used to it.
and i believed the guy i waited on today
who said i’m one hundred percent nice
i don’t bite
i said i believe you sir and i’ll take the beer
can you believe i’m one hundred percent queer
and i talk it and i teach it
and i poet and i preach it
and I hold it and I mold it
and I know it so I give it.
cause I’m sure that I believe
i’m still learning how to live it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAvLLXV_L5g

[MarieDelta]

I have posted several times that I prefer to use the term that a person who is of that group wishes us to use. Get it! I didn't use "tranny" so stop referring to me as "you" in your post as if I support the use of "tranny".


This reminds me of a story, which will probably baffle tenni, but he'll just have to deal.

The "Foo" bird
In ancient times there was a community known as the Goodnu's. As all communities did in these times the Goodnu's lived right on the river bank for trading, transportation and sustenance. Water was almighty and worshipped as a God. One day there was a tremendous hurricane far out in the ocean. It's ferocity blew a large flock of "Foo" birds way off course sending them inland many hundreds of miles and in the vicinity of the Goodnu's community. The Goodnu people had never seen a "Foo" bird and were quite curious as to it's sudden and obviously evil presence. The "Foo" bird, as we all know, is a very ugly, evil-looking bird. This caused the Goodnu people to become very uneasy believing they did something wrong to God and that this bird should be avoided. One day a "Foo" bird flew overhead and screeched: "Foo, Foo" and shit on a Goodnu's head. The man ran screaming into the river believing the Holy powers of the river would cleanse him of this evil turd and its consequences. As soon as the man washed this unholy turd from his ear canal he suddenly keeled over and died. The Goodnu's were now convinced of the "Foo" bird's evilness. The next day a woman was outside and heard: "Foo, Foo". Before she could react the "Foo" bird dropped a bomb landing a syrupy turd across her face. Shocked and panicked she ran into the river furiously washing her face of this sloppy stew. The village watched in horror as this woman also died once cleansed of the runny turd. The very next day a village wiseman heard those famous words: "Foo, Foo". He like others had witnessed the terrible deaths of two of his villages' people in the last two days. He too was struck right in the forehead by the "Foo" birds accurately guided turd missile. His first reaction was confusion and he sprinted towards the river. However, he stopped short and thought of his obvious demise should he cleanse the turd wafer from his forehead. He did not cleanse the poo pile from his forehead and lived. So the wiseman went to the other people of the village, gathered them around and stated to them: "There is an obvious lesson here my good people. The moral of this story is: 'If the Foo shits, wear it.'".

Tranny is a shortened term for transmision and an appropriate use of the term. Because a tranny is a thing, not a person. Which I beleive was my point.

As far as educating you , tenni, I've pretty much given up on that.

[MarieDelta]

Marie
If an argument followed, as I said, start a new thread. I understand as some have stated that your patience is growing thin though. You seem to be immersed in something that prevents you from seeing your rudeness to others.



FYI- You, tenni, do not own this board. As long as I follow the TOS, I can do as I see fit.

You're Being Rude


This is a great one to pop out if it seems like they’re going to push the matter. After all, nobody wants to be “rude”, do they? In a culture rigidly defined by social protocol, invariably designed to favour the privileged, people are very concerned about “getting along with others“.
Especially Marginalised People™! Know why? Well, since they’re marginalised, they experience a variety of discriminations, usually in many aspects of their daily lives. It is not at all unusual, therefore, for Marginalised People™ to have to be accustomed to being very, very cautious about the way they engage with the Privileged®. This is because discrimination may mean they routinely encounter violence, silencing, oppression or just good old-fashioned outright ridicule and diminishment. That can make life stressful and exhausting, so many Marginalised People™ develop complex strategies to avoid rude engagements with Privileged People® .

Further to this, Marginalised People™ are forced into a certain sort of social behaviour by Privileged People® - “appropriate” behaviour. After all, there are different rules for them than there are for the Privileged®. This training in “appropriate” behaviour usually begins when they are very young, so it is well-ingrained.

By accusing them of being rude, you will successfully enliven their sense of caution and anxiety around this matter. You may also provoke a feeling of guilt that they are not “behaving” the way they have been trained to.

But even better - by accusing them of rudeness, you pass the blame back to them, rather than consider what you might have said that was so offensive and hurtful it caused the “rudeness”!

This will definitely work in your favour, because it will further insult and enrage them. You are making progress…


FWIW the TOS are:

Posting Rules:
Generally I am not a "rules person", but experience with various internet communities has taught me that rules are necessary, even on a site that is all about about sexual freedom such as Bisexual.com. So here they are:
1. Don't post your personal ad here. They just clutter up the forums. By far the best thing to do if you are looking to meet people is create a quality personal ad under your "My Account" control panel. These ads then show up highlighted to people in your area.
2. Be polite - flame the idea if you feel you must, but not the person.
3. Sexual freedom is what it's all about, but even it should have limits - discussions of non-consensual sex, violence and sex, or sex involving children are not welcome here, will be promptly deleted, and the poster may be banned.
4. Have fun. Learn. Share. Entertain. Discuss. Argue. Enlighten.
- Drew

[darkeyes]

darkeye
Yes, I consider that you were rude to the man who started the thread by continuing to support a discussion unrelated basically to the man's plight. I'm left to believe that you decided that his "issue" was not as important as your friend's issue about the use of a word. Is it because he is only a "lesser mortal"? ( I hope not)

You/we may suppport a political position but not kidnap a thread away from a man's question without accepting that you are being inconsiderate and rude to him. Now you know that I love a good debate where opposing sides are polite and remain on topic. I don't care what the issue is when someone diverts the thread topic to the point of dismissing a person's question or issue the rest of us should ask them to start a new thread. I know that some of us try to keep that in our mind when discussing/debating on this site. Can we not moderate each other when someone goes way off topic and is inconsiderate to the OP question? I keep reading that this is the site where bisexuals may ask for advice and opinions and is so supportive? Or is that only applying to selected individuals that someone deems worthy? Several posters tried to bring it back to the OP and commented on the OP's concern but Marie, you etc. kept diverting it away from the OP's issue.

Now, Marie started the diversion and yes the person who entered into an argument was almost as wrong as she was. "Almost" is not the same as mainly responsible for diverting a thread from its intended purpose. So, two slaps on the hand for Marie and one slap for the person who began to argue with her. You? Just a little "now now, m luffly let's get back on topic"...lol

UNLESS

So, you are telling me that you knew exactly what you were doing? You did not consider the man's question worth being discussed on his own thread? This is not my perspective of how I thought that you saw justice and fairness?

Darkeye??? Oooo tenni.. yas poked me eye out:tong:

No tenni its nothing to do with the OP being male.. it is to do with the OP and others less than progressive attitudes and references to the transgendered... a little thought and a little more care and consideration, a few little editorial changes which would not have changed his question one iota and I would never have gotten involved.. the subject of the thread isnt something I would dream of getting involved in normally.. of course to the OP his question is important and of interest to others also.. but within the question, and a number of responses, were references to something of interest to both Marie and myself which we believe is important.. and that I could not let pass without comment... so in a sense while the original subject matter of the thread had been sidetracked, it was in my view the weakness within the question which made that sidetracking inevitable... of course a new thread could have been started to take care of the issue of disparaging abbreviations.. but why, when we see something which has been published and contains such a blatant hostage to fortune, should we ignore it, and allow those who we believe are so contemptuous or at very best, thoughtless of a sector of our movement?

[MarieDelta]

You're As Bad As They Are!


Definitely one of the last tactics you should bring out if you're finding that the Marginalised Person™ is simply relentless and you are running out of options.
This one is an outright insult. By now they have probably ripped all your prejudices apart and harshly criticised both your attitudes and the Privileged® system you reside within. You are probably taking it very personally because it's shaking the foundations of your beliefs and making you confront aspects of your own behaviour and nature that you would rather not.

That's when you say to them: you are just as bad as the people who oppress you!

Because they're angry about the treatment they undergo and because they are aggressive and persistent in wanting to see change happen, you can target this behaviour (remembering that it is unseemly for Marginalised People™ – they're supposed to set an example at all times by being humble and long-suffering) by suggesting it puts them on a par with the people and system that stigmatise, ostracise and target them every second of every day of their lives. This also suggests that reacting to such discrimination is totally unreasonable and out of proportion (they should just take their knocks!) and that has the benefit of indicating your ignorance to just how pervasive and constant this discrimination truly is.

This one is important if you really want to demonstrate what a scumbag you are so do be careful to whip it out at precisely the right moment. Used correctly and it can be something of a slamdunk!




You Are Damaging Your Cause By Being Angry

By now their feelings are probably deeply hurt and they’re very angry. Don’t forget they encounter this kind of discrimination in subtle ways every single day of their life, so they’re bound to be emotional about it, even resentful.
You can take advantage of this weakness to emerge the victor! After all, everyone knows the Marginalised™ have an obligation to conduct themselves with quiet dignity in the face of infuriating tribulation and if your quarry begins to get angry and “aggressive” then you have won! Why? Well, it’s very simple - just hold them as representative of their entire group! You could try saying something like “you realise you’re making all X look bad?”, or “well, congratulations for backing up the stereotype of X as being angry, irrational and oversensitive!” Maybe you can even say “well, I was about to say I was willing to listen to you, but then you got insulting so now I don’t have to!”

Don’t worry about silly things like their feelings - c’mon, they’re grownups, aren’t they! The only thing that matters is defending your discrimination as completely fair and to avoid examining your prejudiced arguments in ways that may challenge them. You could even drop this little bomb: "You are damaging your cause by being angry, real understanding can only happen if all sides are respectful and patient".

Not only do you come across as a smug, self-righteous asshat (though you may prefer the term “bigger person”) you can also manage to subtly make them feel guilty about their anger, as though it’s undeserved! Everybody wins! Well, except them of course.


You've Lost Your Temper So I Don't Have To Listen To You Anymore


This one is particularly effective because it really pushes home a sense of futility and hopelessness to the Marginalised Person™. Remember they should never get the impression they can win one of these arguments, because you should be consistently implying that there was never anything to argue over to begin with.
If you’ve been following the steps correctly so far, by this point any reasonable person is going to be feeling pretty angry. This anger could lead to them being more aggressive and abrasive. The Marginalised Person™ has possibly even decided that you’re simply too obnoxious to waste patience on and is venting their sense of frustration.
This is when you whip this step out!

You can use it to disregard everything they’ve said to you and just not deal with the issue, in particular ignoring your prior behaviour that led to the anger. Conventions of social conduct hold civil discourse as the ideal at all times. When people get angry, it gives you a convenient “out” without having to concede to any of their objections or acknowledge their pain.

Furthermore, with this one you can make it seem as though you were ready and willing to listen, but then they ruined it. This way you can leave them with the sense that if only they’d been a good little Marginalised Person™ and toed the line, then they may have won someone over to the cause!

It just adds a particular distaste to the whole affair that no derailing should be without!

[ubersmack]

Marie,

What is this book/internet site that you are quoting?

[MarieDelta]

Derailing for Dummies (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/)


You know how it is. You’re enjoying yourself, kicking back and relaxing at the pub or maybe at the library; or maybe you’re in class or just casually surfing the internet, indulging in a little conversation. The topic of the conversation is about a pertinent contemporary issue, probably something to do with a group of people who fall outside your realm of experience and identity. They’re also probably fairly heavily discriminated against - or so they claim.
The thing is, you’re having a good time, sharing your knowledge about these people and their issues. This knowledge is incontrovertible - it’s been backed up in media representation, books, research and lots and lots of historical events, also your own unassailable sense of being right.

Yet all of a sudden something happens to put a dampener on your sharing of your enviable intellect and incomparable capacity to fully perceive and understand All Things. It’s someone who belongs to the group of people you’re discussing and they’re Not Very Happy with you. Apparently, they claim, you’ve got it all wrong and they’re offended about that. They might be a person of colour, or a queer person. Maybe they’re a woman, or a person with disability. They could even be a trans person or a sex worker. The point is they’re trying to tell you they know better than you about their issues and you know that’s just plain wrong. How could you be wrong?

Don’t worry though! There IS something you can do to nip this potentially awkward and embarrassing situation in the bud. By simply derailing the conversation, dismissing their opinion as false and ridiculing their experience you can be sure that they continue to be marginalised and unheard and you can continue to look like the expert you know you really are, deep down inside!


CONGRATULATIONS, YOU HAVE PRIVILEGE!Just follow this step-by-step guide to Conversing with Marginalised People™ and in no time at all you will have a fool-proof method of derailing every challenging conversation you may get into, thus reaping the full benefits of every privilege that you have.

The best part is, you don't even have to be a white, heterosexual, cisgendered, cissexual, upper-class male to enjoy the full benefits of derailing conversation! Nope, you can utilise the lesser-recognised tactic of Horizontal Hostility to make sure that, despite being a member of a Marginalised Group™ yourself, you can exercise a privilege another Marginalised Group™ doesn't have in order not to heed their experience!

Read on, and learn, and remember… you don’t have to use these in any particular order! In fact, mixing them up can really keep those Marginalised People™ on their toes! After all, they are pretty much used to hearing this stuff, so you don’t want to get too predictable or they’ll get lazy!

[MarieDelta]

But I'm Not Like That - Stop Stereotying!

Personalising anything the Marginalised Person may say is a great way of distracting attention from the issue at hand, forcing the Marginalised Person to soothe your wounded feelings or sense of indignation rather than concentrating on the argument they were making.
Rather than simply listening to criticism of a group of Privileged People with respect and consideration for the Marginalised Person, you must immediately take offence and leap in to defend yourself.

For example, when queer people are crticising the tendencies of some straight people, jump in and say something like:

"Not all of us are like that - you're prejudiced against straight people! You're judging straight people the same way that they judge you, and it's hateful! We need to not categorise people and make assumptions about them based on their identity! I resent feeling like I'm part of a group that oppresses you!"

- even though the criticism was very explicitly leveled at a specified behavior. (ie.:, "I don't like straight people who do ________.")

But of course, this can work in many different situations where Privileged behaviour is being deconstucted or criticised. Its resonance is in its lack of acknowledgement of the balance of power by suggesting that reasonable criticism of oppressive or discriminatory behaviour is equivalent to the oppressive and discriminatory behaviour itself. Remember that while the Marginalised Person's criticism can never adversely affect your life in significant ways, you must rank the discrimination they face - which does significantly affect them - as equal to the discomfort of your wounded feelings, to demonstrate how highly you rank yourself and how lowly you rank them.

[tenni]

Marie

Now with all this cut and paste nonsense, you are acting just a fuck'n SPAM TROLL.


Why not hold your breathe until we all agree with you?...childish

[Drkluvtheory99]

Okay under my knowledge arent forums and communities full of people who share different opinions and opinions whether ignorant or not are that of the sole individual that thinks it? A thread welcomes comments. If something is offensive I will say something. To each his/her own. We all feel some way about everything. Arent forums for exactly that? Debate, polls, thoughts, comments and opinions?

[MarieDelta]

You're Being Hostile


This is a great one to pop out if it seems like they’re going to push the matter. After all, nobody wants to be “hostile”, do they? In a culture rigidly defined by social protocol, invariably designed to favour the privileged, people are very concerned about “getting along with others“.
Especially Marginalised People™! Know why? Well, since they’re marginalised, they experience a variety of discriminations, usually in many aspects of their daily lives. It is not at all unusual, therefore, for Marginalised People™ to have to be accustomed to being very, very cautious about the way they engage with the Privileged®. This is because discrimination may mean they routinely encounter violence, silencing, oppression or just good old-fashioned outright ridicule and diminishment. That can make life stressful and exhausting, so many Marginalised People™ develop complex strategies to avoid hostile engagements with Privileged People® .

Further to this, Marginalised People™ are forced into a certain sort of social behaviour by Privileged People® - “appropriate” behaviour. After all, there are different rules for them than there are for the Privileged®. This training in “appropriate” behaviour usually begins when they are very young, so it is well-ingrained.

By accusing them of hostility, you will successfully enliven their sense of caution and anxiety around this matter. You may also provoke a feeling of guilt that they are not “behaving” the way they have been trained to.

But even better - by accusing them of hostility, you pass the blame back to them, rather than consider what you might have said that was so offensive and hurtful it caused the “hostility”!

This will definitely work in your favour, because it will further insult and enrage them. You are making progress…


You're Being Overemotional


It is very likely that the whole reason the Marginalised Person™ in question is debating with you is because they’ve made a conscious decision to speak out about these issues, despite the pain and heartache it can often cause them.
Therefore, the “you’re being hostile” bomb can often lead to an increase of anger and/or hurt. Sometimes it just leads to greater emphasis and exasperation in the argument.

It really doesn’t matter, because you can still use it against them by accusing them of being overemotional. You may wish to use the word “hysterical” instead. “Hysterical” is also a word laden with negative connotations, so it’s particularly effective. Using this one in discussions with women is highly advisable, as the opinions and feelings of women have historically been denied as mere “hysteria”, but it works against almost anyone. A great one to use with women as well is to ask them if they’re “PMSing”. Yes, it’s an oldie but a classic.

If you need more variety, some more handy argument winners involving speculating as to people’s neurotypical status: ask them if they’re “neurotic” or “schizo” for example. Implying people have mental health issues is a great way to dismiss their concerns; it’s also insensitive to people with actual mental health issues!

After all, proper “intellectual” discussions always involve detachment and rationality. What is “rationality”? It’s a way of approaching emotional matters devoid of sentiment, particularly prized by Privileged People® as it enables a continuing inequity of power that favours them: after all, if they aren’t emotionally attached to the topic by way of Lived Experience©, it is easier for them to be “rational”.



Feel like its cutting a lil' close to the bone , tenni?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar5oT8JhtOo

[gender game]
co-written by amy neevel
©2001 Alix Olson.


You wanna give me a shiner
Cause I look like this
And I got a vagina?
See, I’m familiar with this Gender Game,
I’ve played this war many times before
On this playground called my identity
When puberty hit like dodge balls
And freeze-tagged as sissy-fagged
My best friend dissed me- common interests,
Different anatomy.

See, vagina meant quieter, caretaker, peacemaker.
Vagina meant keeping lips closed, keeping bodies posed.
Vagina was silent dolls and no action toys,
Vagina was punches when I played with the boys.
So I learned to take it in the stomach, I learned to Fight to make friends.

And as I learned to make that bullshit end,
Vagina became a slippery slide for my little finger
Vagina became a quiver that lingered,
Vagina became what I looked for, worked for, stood for,
I "Viva La Vagina’d all over the place!"
I revitalized Vagina’s grace, I discovered vagina’s taste.
I became a fine diner. Put my face in vagina after vagina.

And then I was faced with some other lipservice
Putting me in my place
That Vagina should not be liberator.
But dictator.
Of the shoes we wear. The hair we crop.
The palms we clasp. The way we walk.
The space we use. The threads we choose.
Well, I refuse to follow suit.
Cause I gotta confess, my straight jacket is a dress.
You know it used to be a crime
To wear clothes that didn’t scream
"Vagin-A!"
I wear these shoes so I can move with my own easy spirit.
I don’t shave my legs cause
It gets cold. Besides, my legs rebel
Against the bloody hell of
Shaved and sliced
And since when is my body hair something to judge?
Is furry a male privilege-
Or a patriarchal plot by gillette?
I don’t cut my nails cause I’ve got hammering to do.
I’m pounding out my path as I cruise this gender landscape,
As I peruse the choice between silence and
Violence.

Matthew Shepard was bent, so you hang him to a fence,
Brandon Teena was murdered as a liar for hiding his
Vagina. And I can’t even sit
In a restaurant without causing a stir:
"Whaddya have sir? Whaddya have sir? Whaddya have sir?"
I have a Vagina!

Yes, I’ve got a vagina and you can still call me sir,
Cause I can’t cure
This visual disease of yours.
But I don’t give a damn about "Sir" or "Ma’am".
So, in the "F" or "M" boxes they give,
I forgive myself for not fitting in
And blame the world for lack of clarity.
I deliberate.
Penis? I got one y’know. I write down "d" for dildo,
I write down "D" for
"Don’t know," I fill in "F" for
fi-fie-foe male!
Yes, I’m a giant Vagina!
And I am too big for these boxes they give,
Too real for this Gender Toyland
Built over soiled contradictions
With Barbie bricks and Ken cornerstones
Built over the skulls and bones of our Transgendered Ancestors.
Danger:
She-men working above. And beyond. You.

Yes, we are Deconstruction Workers.
We are exposing unfounded bedrocks
That bed us to one sex, that wed us to one gender.
We are overturning those stones,
We are throwing them back.
We are making revolution
A gender evolution.
We are invoking strategy, we are revoking shame.
And we are calling it. We are calling it
Refusal to be Named.

[MarieDelta]

Tell me about it.

She's flipping out, spamming, and angry at me because I'm Transgender and not only do I not consider terms like tranny, shemale, and ladyboy not to be slurs I use tranny as a way to describe myself.

If Marie were actually out and active as a Transgendered woman she would know that yes many of us TS/TG people do use tranny as a way to describe ourselves and we see nothing wrong with the term.

I dont care (for the umptenth time) what you call yourself. If you want to call yourself a "flaming a$$ho|e from mars" be my guest. However, do not lump me and my community in with you.

But If It's Okay For Marginalised People To Use Those Words, Why Can't I?


As a Privileged Person®, it is natural that you would feel excluded and frustrated by the recent spate of Marginalised People "reclaiming" historically negative words to refer to themselves.
Not only do these Marginalised People™ kick up a great big ole stink by making it "politically incorrect" for Privileged People® to use these words - even going so far as to have some of them defined under 'hate crime' legislation! - they take the insult one step further and use them freely amongst themselves!

This is very perplexing and annoying for Privileged People®, who can only stand on the outside, gazing wistfully in, wishing it were a simpler time when it was totally okay for everyone to call women whores, Mexicans spics, Trans* folk trannies, gay men faggots and people of African descent the n-word.

After all, who do those Marginalised People™ think they are, taking ownership of language traditionally used to oppress them! That just isn't playing fair!

But take heart, because there is a way you can worm around this one - where there's Privilege®, there's always a way!

First of all, you must feign utter cluelessness about the ins & outs of reclaimation and behave as though you were under the impression that in these 'post race/sex/sexuality/gender/etc times' that we had all evolved into a new era where 'words don't mean anything' and it's totally okay for everyone to use offensive slurs and then... well: use them.

When a Marginalised Person™ calls you out on it, become indignant. Express confusion. Demand an explanation. Say that you just don't understand - if you people use those words to refer to each other, why can't I?!

You see, you're implying that they're being hypocritical. That if they are going to use abusive & oppressionist language aongst each other, they simply have to accept that they're employing a 'double standard' by preventing the Privileged® from using them.

What this enables you to ignore is the reality of the power dynamic involved. Language reclaimation is a means by which Marginalised People™ gain back some power they are traditionally denied by taking control of words used to demean and discriminate against them. When these words come from Privileged People®, there is a long and very serious negative history behind them that cannot be divorced from the words themselves. Thus, when Privileged People® employ these words, they are perpetuating that history and the psychology behind the word. They are exercising oppressive power that have become inherent to those words - a power Marginalised People™ seek to subvert and dismantle when they use them.

Pretend not to understand this. Just continue to imply hypocrisy and pout that it isn't fair.

It also ignores the fact that, from within Marginalised Groups™, discourses around abusive language are actually not simple and there are many divided and varied opinions on the subject. Treating Marginalised People™ like a hive mind is always a great way to further subtly insult them and since the point of this entire debacle is to come out with as many notches on your belt as possible, you want to make sure you slip in as many knocks below their belt as you can manage

[MarieDelta]

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh21/madtabby66/Online/ObviousTroll.jpg

[Cherokee_Mountaincat]

Where is your sympathy/empathy for the poor bugger who had his thread stolen Cat?

Well evidently, Dumpling, you didnt read my post about the OP of the piece, did you? It IS too bad his thread got hijacked, but it wasnt all Marie's doing. You best look to our two newest trolls for that. And a person's own opinion should be Just That. It's Their opinion and they are intitled to it. Whether its Yours, mine, Marie's or who the hell ever's.
Cat

[Pasadenacpl2]

I find some things ironic.

Chiefly, I find it ironic that Tenni would complain about anyone derailing a thread. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

I find Marie's stance ironic, too. I am confused as to why it matters. When you have so many issues already to deal with, why choose this as your hill to die on? It seems like some folks choose to be offended especially where no offense was intended. I have never understood the motivation in this. It seems to create controversy where none need exist.

This is another example of how the non-straight community will never make the progress it wants to. We keep fighting amongst ourselves about issues that don't really matter when viewed against the backdrop of the big picture.

If we can't convince ourselves to get along and treat each other with equal respect, then how on earth do we expect to convince the straight community?

Pasa

[cliffordmontero]

Marie, unfortunately for you, you seem to think you are the know all, end all, and be all. You refer to others as trolls, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you don't and can't speak for all transgendered people. Who appointed you the educator of the masses? You are entitled to take offense to any term you feel is derogatory. I will give that to anyone as a human right. However you blindly quoting others does nothing to educate the community as a whole. You seem to let your anger over the use of a single word come in the way of what your ultimate goal is. You are becoming the very troll you accuse others of being, spewing quotes and bringing little in the way of growth to the conversation. I have had better conversations with wikipedia. You spew out nothing but quotes shooting down everything anyone says against you rather than appreciating that they have valid thoughts and ideas and building on them to show them how they can use better terminology to describe things less offensively. If you intend to educate anyone, first you must listen to them and understand where they are. Much like you wouldn't start out teaching a student quantum physics if they only know addition and subtraction, you can't expect the someone educated by pornography to understand the subtlety of sexuality without discussion to bring them out of the pornography mentality and educate them. Stop quoting bullshit anyone could google. Start listening to whats being said to you and speak from your heart. If your incapable of speaking for yourself and not spouting out a copy paste fury of crap then you clearly can't think for yourself. If you can't think for yourself I don't care to hear anymore of what you have to say.

[spankendworph]

I think Marie has a point. If we cant respect each other what do we have?

Attempting to treat each other with respect is part of being a team.

[MarieDelta]

Marie, unfortunately for you, you seem to think you are the know all, end all, and be all. You refer to others as trolls, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you don't and can't speak for all transgendered people. Who appointed you the educator of the masses? You are entitled to take offense to any term you feel is derogatory. I will give that to anyone as a human right. However you blindly quoting others does nothing to educate the community as a whole. You seem to let your anger over the use of a single word come in the way of what your ultimate goal is. You are becoming the very troll you accuse others of being, spewing quotes and bringing little in the way of growth to the conversation. I have had better conversations with wikipedia. You spew out nothing but quotes shooting down everything anyone says against you rather than appreciating that they have valid thoughts and ideas and building on them to show them how they can use better terminology to describe things less offensively. If you intend to educate anyone, first you must listen to them and understand where they are. Much like you wouldn't start out teaching a student quantum physics if they only know addition and subtraction, you can't expect the someone educated by pornography to understand the subtlety of sexuality without discussion to bring them out of the pornography mentality and educate them. Stop quoting bullshit anyone could google. Start listening to whats being said to you and speak from your heart. If your incapable of speaking for yourself and not spouting out a copy paste fury of crap then you clearly can't think for yourself. If you can't think for yourself I don't care to hear anymore of what you have to say.

Clifford I have listened, and tried being patient.

Tried using humour.

Tried being nice and a "team player"

No one gives a crap, why should I?

I am beyond tired of being treated like a second class citzen here on these boards.

Everytime I speak up about an issue, I get ignored.

So go ahead ignore me, why the fuck should I care?

In addition, you all have let tenni think he is the tin god of this forum, and that has gotten way out of control, as well.

[MarieDelta]

I find some things ironic.

Chiefly, I find it ironic that Tenni would complain about anyone derailing a thread. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

I find Marie's stance ironic, too. I am confused as to why it matters. When you have so many issues already to deal with, why choose this as your hill to die on? It seems like some folks choose to be offended especially where no offense was intended. I have never understood the motivation in this. It seems to create controversy where none need exist.

This is another example of how the non-straight community will never make the progress it wants to. We keep fighting amongst ourselves about issues that don't really matter when viewed against the backdrop of the big picture.

If we can't convince ourselves to get along and treat each other with equal respect, then how on earth do we expect to convince the straight community?

Pasa

If we cant find respect for each other, what do we have?

It starts with being respectful of how others wish to be refered to, dont you agree?

[MarieDelta]

I find some things ironic.

Chiefly, I find it ironic that Tenni would complain about anyone derailing a thread. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, meet pot.

I find Marie's stance ironic, too. I am confused as to why it matters. When you have so many issues already to deal with, why choose this as your hill to die on? It seems like some folks choose to be offended especially where no offense was intended. I have never understood the motivation in this. It seems to create controversy where none need exist.

This is another example of how the non-straight community will never make the progress it wants to. We keep fighting amongst ourselves about issues that don't really matter when viewed against the backdrop of the big picture.

If we can't convince ourselves to get along and treat each other with equal respect, then how on earth do we expect to convince the straight community?
Pasa

I beileve that was my point.

I tried to use humour to get others to not use that term. However, some people feel that I was being oversensitive.

so...

I responded. Because I am beyond tired of seeing that term come out of folks mouths here.

If you dont like it, dont read my posts.

Don't You Have More Important Issues To Think About


When you're beginning to feel backed into a corner, you could do worse than to trot this one out.
As with the best of all these techniques, this step operates on several levels. First of all, it communicates to the Marginalised Person™ that you think the entire debate is trivial and below consideration, indicating you entirely disregard their feelings and emotions. Secondly, you disown responsibility for your part in the debate and anything that you've said that may have been discriminatory or offensive.

Finally, you reinforce your Privilege® by suggesting that it is Privileged People's® job to set the agenda for the Marginalised Group™. After all, how could they possibly know what issues they should prioritise for themselves, they're far too inferior and stupid! You, with your objective, ractional Privileged® perspective, on the other hand, know exactly what is most important and it is definitely not confronting you with your own bigotry and ignorance!

Again I didnt start either of these threads, but I wont be shut down, either.

You know how you get when you see folks trot out how all christians are evil and worthy of condemnation? Yeah That.

[darkeyes]

Marie is doing what all Trans "women" do. Spreading, drama, flipping out and thinking that by doing all of this he/she is being effeminate and a "real" woman and that this is how actual cisgender women act.

Marie will never be an actual cisgender woman no matter how many hormones he/she takes or whatever mutilations and cosmetic surgery he/she gets. He will just be a shemale.

Yep.. a rather nasty llittle man who knows nothing of the transgendered except what his seedy little prejudices tell him..

[darkeyes]

A transman aquaintance sent this to me.. pertinent I think..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/30/trans-language-transgender

..and maybe this will be of interest...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/transgender

[MarieDelta]

A transman aquaintance sent this to me.. pertinent I think..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/jun/30/trans-language-transgender

..and maybe this will be of interest...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/transgender

Thanks Fran! :bigrin:

I hadnt seen those articles, but I think they get to the point of it all.

When we have members of our society kill themselves (Christine Daniels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Penner)) due to being misgendered and generally being made into a joke, dont you think it behooves us to listen to members of that community when they say "stop" "what you are doing is hurting"?

[Pasadenacpl2]

I read your little cut and paste, Marie. I agree with some of it. I do think it's trivial and beneath us to get bent put of shape about it. If you feel that I am marginalizing ypur feelimgs, then you should know better. Honest people with no ill intent can disagree without either side discounting the other as people.

I'm all about our community beimg successful. Two threads of this only highlights that our community has no right to ask for acceptance because we haven't shown much ourselves. It IS a trivial matter. And you AND those lile Tenni
are equally to blame for essentially showing your asses.

After reading ALL of you cut and pastes, and after reading Tenni's start to the second thread, I come away wonderimg if you two need a few more nails for your crosses.

Pasa



I beileve that was my point.

I tried to use humour to get others to not use that term. However, some people feel that I was being oversensitive.

so...

I responded. Because I am beyond tired of seeing that term come out of folks mouths here.

If you dont like it, dont read my posts.

Don't You Have More Important Issues To Think About



Again I didnt start either of these threads, but I wont be shut down, either.

You know how you get when you see folks trot out how all christians are evil and worthy of condemnation? Yeah That.

[MarieDelta]

I read your little cut and paste, Marie. I agree with some of it. I do think it's trivial and beneath us to get bent put of shape about it. If you feel that I am marginalizing ypur feelimgs, then you should know better. Honest people with no ill intent can disagree without either side discounting the other as people.

I'm all about our community beimg successful. Two threads of this only highlights that our community has no right to ask for acceptance because we haven't shown much ourselves. It IS a trivial matter. And you AND those lile Tenni
are equally to blame for essentially showing your asses.

After reading ALL of you cut and pastes, and after reading Tenni's start to the second thread, I come away wonderimg if you two need a few more nails for your crosses.

Pasa

Its trivial for YOU. Not so trivial for others. I'm sorry you dont get that.

As to whether we deserve acceptance, really who does? It would be a strange world indeed if we all got what we deserved.

However, acceptance doesnt equal the right to exist.

Again, if these threads bother you, take it up with the OP's.

This is my place , too. I'll be damned if someone is going to call me and those like me, those names here.

Again I am sorry you dont understand, however that doesnt make my point less valid.

[darkeyes]

I read your little cut and paste, Marie. I agree with some of it. I do think it's trivial and beneath us to get bent put of shape about it. If you feel that I am marginalizing ypur feelimgs, then you should know better. Honest people with no ill intent can disagree without either side discounting the other as people.

I'm all about our community beimg successful. Two threads of this only highlights that our community has no right to ask for acceptance because we haven't shown much ourselves. It IS a trivial matter. And you AND those lile Tenni
are equally to blame for essentially showing your asses.

After reading ALL of you cut and pastes, and after reading Tenni's start to the second thread, I come away wonderimg if you two need a few more nails for your crosses.

Pasa

It isnt trivial to Marie and very large numbers of transpeople.. I havent known many, but in recent times have begun to try and do so.. this is down to Marie in the main and as a result of the many discussions we have had over the years.. and what they want above all is simple repsect and acceptance.. they dont want drama... acceptance.. acceptance as transwomen and men.. not tranny or shemale.. and within the lgb part of the movement, it is truye that the transgendered are neither given the respect they are due, or gievn the importance which we believe that gay and bi issues should be given..

.. sure among themselves, some call each other tranny or shemale, just as within the gay and lesbian movement within themselves and to some extent within their circle of non gay or lesbian friends they call each other queer, or poof or dyke.. but that does not give outsiders the right to show contempt by calling them such names..

There will always be issues within the lgbt movement to divide us.. general, principled and personal.. it would be a miracle if that was not the case.. yet still we make progress... and makig progress is what it is about... by respecting each other we can help speed that progress up...

[Pasadenacpl2]

I understand your point.

See, what you did there was try to derail my argument by making the case that I am just not smart enough to grasp it. It is a subtle ploy, but effective because it emphasises to your opponent that you aren't wrong, they're just stupid.

Now, if we're quite done with that sort of nonsense.

No one was calling anyone names. You took offense all on your own. I'm sorry you don't like the word 'tranny.' But this really is a mountain you created out of many possible molehills.

Why do I care? I'd much rather see folks doing things that actually affect things. Arguing over nomenclature is hardly that. It is the exact same argument over the term 'Ms' and womeng getting bent out of shape about it with polite and unsuspecting gentlemen.

So you don't like to be called tranny. OK. To each their own. But to expect everyone to conform to your sensibities is a bit much. This is a community that can't agree on the definition (or even existance) of bisexual. Yet you want to bitch about people using a term that is used extensively in porn, literature, TV, and movies?

It seems like rampant PCness.

Pasa

[MarieDelta]

It wasnt even being PC, it was a simple matter of politeness.

You, Pasa, think its cool?

What if I called you a screaming sissy or a flaming faggot?

What if I did it at your work/home/house?

"Sissy" and "faggot" are both terms used in porn/literature and the mainstream, does that make them ok?

And yes, you have decided that my point is not worth listening to, before you even read this post.

So whatever...

Put me on ignore.

[MarieDelta]

trolling.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000900847/ObviousTroll_answer_9_xlarge.jpeg

[MarieDelta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9HY1XHqjYA

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000900847/ObviousTroll_answer_9_xlarge.jpeg

[Pasadenacpl2]

Ummm...

Marie and I've known each other for quite awhile. We do no agree on several subjects. But, speaking for myself, I'm rather fond of her. You might note, SoddomAndGamorrah, that I did not attack her. You, however, got personal.

There is reasoned debate to be had on this subject. Yours does not qualify. Please do not assume that my words to Marie were an indication of solidarity with assholes.

Pasa

[tenni]

Marie and others
If you would read my the question at the end of my OP, I am not trying to be a tin god. Everyone should try to stay on the OP topic. If anyone of us wanders off topic or is heading to hijack a thread question etc., remind the person that they are going too far off topic and ask them to start a new thread. (if we wish to be civil and respectful to each other) NotsoLost frequently would do this. Notso and myself commented if we thought that we might be wandering off the OP topic. That is my main point.

I'm sorry that Marie experiences stress when a person uses a certain word but do not give her any more rights than another person. She has no more rights to apply a slur or spam a thread that she did not start than anyone else.

I would also add, I wonder why the OP of "my wife wants me ..." has not posted again on his own thread? It might have been nice if he apologized but there may be a reason why he has not. I can guess a few reasons.

To accuse someone of being privileged is a personal attack. Now, if you were a one legged, blind, developmentally challenged, Inuit transman..then Marie...you have legitimacy to think that others are more privileged than you..but it is better and more respectful of others to think of yourself as marginalized than accuse others of being "privileged bisexuals".

[Wrenn]

Cisgender is the term that Trans people love to use to try to offend everyone that is not trans or guilt them into their ultra PC viewpoint about how being trans is supposedly so difficult when it is not.

Cisgender is a laughable term for a slur just like the term breeder is for straights/heteros.

I didn't ask about the term cisgender. I asked about the politeness of using the term "privileged" when referring to folks who do not have gender identity issues. I do not care for your style of debating, sir, so I ask that you not twist my words in an attempt to validate your own opinions.

[tenni]

Where is your sympathy/empathy for the poor bugger who had his thread stolen Cat?

Well evidently, Dumpling, you didnt read my post about the OP of the piece, did you? It IS too bad his thread got hijacked, but it wasnt all Marie's doing. You best look to our two newest trolls for that. And a person's own opinion should be Just That. It's Their opinion and they are intitled to it. Whether its Yours, mine, Marie's or who the hell ever's.
Cat

I agree with almost everything that you wrote Dumpling :) As a responsible and long standing member of the site shouldn't Marie have led the way? She should have started a new thread. In fact though, it seems that she is adament about it being her "right" to hijack threads from what I can tell from her responses.

[MarieDelta]

Marie and others
If you would read my the question at the end of my OP, I am not trying to be a tin god. Everyone should try to stay on the OP topic. If anyone of us wanders off topic or is heading to hijack a thread question etc., remind the person that they are going too far off topic and ask them to start a new thread. (if we wish to be civil and respectful to each other) NotsoLost frequently would do this. Notso and myself commented if we thought that we might be wandering off the OP topic. That is my main point.".
You are trying to usurp Drew's position, do you not see that?


I'm sorry that Marie experiences stress when a person uses a certain word but do not give her any more rights than another person. She has no more rights to apply a slur or spam a thread that she did not start than anyone else. ".
Booo hoo hoo - Dont read the thread. It has little to nothing to do with you and is thereby none of your business.



I would also add, I wonder why the OP of "my wife wants me ..." has not posted again on his own thread? It might have been nice if he apologized but there may be a reason why he has not. I can guess a few reasons.".

hm maybe he was a troll. Maybe he was just ignorant. Ignorance and apathy.



To accuse someone of being privileged is a personal attack. Now, if you were a one legged, blind, developmentally challenged, Inuit transman..then Marie...you have legitimacy to think that others are more privileged than you..but it is better and more respectful of others to think of yourself as marginalized than accuse others of being "privileged bisexuals".

It isn't an attack if it is true, is it?

Why are you taking that term so hard?

Let me refresh your memory about what it means to be privileged.


privilege n. a special benefit, exemption from a duty, or immunity from penalty, given to a particular person, a group or a class of people.

When compared to me, you are privileged.

Can you be fired for dressing as a male? Can you lose your home for no other reason than dressing as a male?

In 39/52 states that is the case for me. If I dress as female, appear as female or if my employer/landlord finds out my history I can lose those things, with no legal recourse.

So what about that isn’t privilege?

Is it that the word makes you uncomfortable because you don’t wish to acknowledge that you have privilege? Or is it some subtle misogynistic tendencies on your part? Perhaps a little transphobia? You have mentioned that you don’t like trans women, do we squick you out just a little?

I find it interesting that you tend to go after trans-women and straight women with about the same fervor.

Sometimes, it seems to me, that you'd like to see all us females disappear.

hmm Now that’s an interesting thought isn’t it , I wonder where that comes from?

Someone like that might have a little bit of anger at their wife for not understanding their desire to be with a man?

or maybe repressed envy?

or maybe its anger at your mother, perhaps unresolved issues?

If I were someone like that I'd go find a therapist to work all that stuff out.

Here is a litle story from personal experience , tenni, about two weeks after I came out to HR and informed them that I was going to transition at my last job, I was laid off due to lack of work. About a week after I recieved a call from a friend informing me that they had rehired someone to fill my position.

I had been with the company for seven years, with no problems.

So tell me about priviledges and rights.

Even Canada has sexual orientation protection nationwide, gender identity/expression protection is only in NWT.

Somehow I get the feeling you all think this is some sort of choice? The choice to be transsexual. Let me assure you it is not.

It's the story of the pebble in the shoe.

The first mile you notice it.

The second mile you really begin to feel the pain from it.

After 30 miles you are ready to chop off a limb.

Does that make any sense to you?

I've gone as far as I can go, as a male, I'd rather die than continue living as a male.

See I can "hear" you saying that it's all hyperbole and that gives you an out.

And that is where the miscommunication lies. You dont believe me. Because I am "one of them", a female.

[Wrenn]

Jesus Christ!!!

[TaylorMade]

http://cdn.buzznet.com/assets/imgx/5/5/0/6/0/1/1/orig-5506011.jpg


Jesus Christ!!!

*Taylor*

[RockGardener]

So....S&G and Tenni,

This issue is so important to you that you must argue it for three days. Why is it so important for you to insist that the word is correct??? You two were the ones the started the fight, Marie simply made a remark that it isn't a polite word and one of you felt the need to start in on "UltraPC". You and Marie are equals on here, but you think it's ok to attack and call her a troll. Between the two of you, you probably have twice as many posts as her on this subject. Marie "knew" you wouldn't follow any links to get information, so she made it easy on you and posted right on the forum.

You say you have trans friends and they like to be called tranny. I have trans friends and they don't like to be called tranny. What makes your words and your opinion better or more right than mine???

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni,

This is the internet. This is an internet forum. One cannot 'steal' a thread. One can derail it from the original intent. But, threads do not belong to us. Threads go off in a variety of tangents. This happens on every internet forum.

I've been actively on internet forums since loooong before phbbb was around. I set up discussion forums pretty much since the dawn of the www (when it was news groups). Same old shit. Different day.

That you are making an issue of this is just as bad, nay, worse than what you accuse Marie of. Really? You, of all people, are going to complain that a thread was hijacked? Really? You are the king of thread jacks on this site. And you're trying to play the villain card on Marie? That deserves but one word: Fail.

You're both acting like spoiled children sticking their fingers in their ears shouting "I can't hear you". However, you are far and away the worse of the two.

SoddomandGomorrahShow is, however, a troll. In fact, I'm betting that he isn't long before he starts in with rants against TGs, against anyone in the closet, and well...y'all know the pattern by now. We see the naming convention used, we see the pattern already forming. I give it a few weeks. But, nowthat S&G has decided to enter the fray, as it were, it won't be long before he's booted.

Pasa

[coyotedude]

I have said this before, but it bears repeating: so-called "political correctness" is largely a myth. It's a myth that's largely perpetuated by those who are uncomfortable being called on their bullshit.

My mama taught me to be respectful of other people and avoid hurtful names. Not that I'm always good at it. But it's really that simple.

I think there's nothing wrong with a reasonable debate on whether the term in question is offensive or not. But by and large both these threads have become all about bashing Marie, which in my opinion is bullshit.

Has Marie overreacted? Perhaps so. But in my experience, people who are "oversensitive" are usually that way for a reason. You tend to be jumpy when you have a big target on your back. Perhaps if some of us put ourselves in Marie's shoes for a moment, we might gain some perspective on why she has reacted in the manner she has.

You don't have to agree with someone to have compassion for them. But I see a lot of bullshit and precious little compassion going on here.

Peace

[MarieDelta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xsDdIByh8A

Trolls-
In The Hobbit they speak with very thick Cockney accents. They turn to stone when exposed to sunlight and they enjoy eating meat (such as mutton, hobbits and Dwarves) and drinking beer. While threatening, the trolls in The Hobbit serve as a comic element. They even have normal names: Tom, Bert, and Bill Huggins (the only case in which a surname is given).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3h6FgFthC8

[NotLostJustWandering]

To accuse someone of being privileged is a personal attack. Now, if you were a one legged, blind, developmentally challenged, Inuit transman..then Marie...you have legitimacy to think that others are more privileged than you..but it is better and more respectful of others to think of yourself as marginalized than accuse others of being "privileged bisexuals".

Better, I think, that we all admit that on the one hand we all have privilege, and that we are all marginalized. As to the latter: if we all put aside the personal squabbling, is there really one person here who can not relate empathetically to at least some of the stuff that MarieDelta is quoting about conversations between the privileged and the marginalized? As to the former: the very fact that all of us are speaking English and using the Internet is ample evidence that we all have material privilege far beyond the grasp of the average human. Any of you who don't think you have privilege ought to drop in on me here in the Third World for a bit. And mind you, for the Third World, Egypt is pretty swank. All the adults have shoes, and so do some of the kids.

Let's all meditate on these facts a bit and I think we can more easily put aside this hopeless and divisive argument of who is more or less privileged or marginalized. You can only put yourself so far in someone else's shoes. Especially if they haven't got any.

[coyotedude]

I would like to share a private message from SodomAndGomorrahShow and my response. Normally I would keep these things private. But since he felt the need to private message me - and request a reply - but doesn't have the guts to accept my private message response in return, this is the only way I can communicate with him.


Political Correctness is not a myth.

Just look at this thread and the thread titled "My wife wants to watch me with a tranny" and you'll see how the ultra PC like MarieDelta want to censor anyone from using Tranny and she completely disowns any fellow TS/TG person who uses the word tranny to describe themselves even if they use the term in a positive way like many people use the term queer.


Marie, unfortunately for you, you seem to think you are the know all, end all, and be all. You refer to others as trolls, yet you refuse to acknowledge that you don't and can't speak for all transgendered people. Who appointed you the educator of the masses?

MarieDelta is flipping out, overreacting, and getting angry at the term tranny and then she shows her true colors as someone who is cisgender-phobic or someone who does not like people who are not TG/TS/Trans at all. She's also shown how she is very heterophobic, biphobic, and misandrist which is funny since he/she was born in a male body and will always be male biologically.


yes you, with your priveledged position of straight appearing bi male, feel that you have the right to use these words.

Marie does not have a "target on her back" you're just feeding into her victimhood or false victim status and political correctness by saying this. I know many people here including you Coyote would like to think that if you are out as anything other than male/female or heterosexual you're going to be the next Brandon Teena, Matt Shepherd, or a victim but that is not true.

I know that lots of people here like to worship Marie because she's a shemale but really she's overreacting and being a cunty bitch.

All of her posting about how people should not use the term tranny is not going to stop people from using it and it is not going to make her fellow TS/TG/Trans people stop using the term tranny to describe themselves.

My response:

Pot-kettle-black. If you're taking the time to send me a private message and call someone a cunty bitch over this topic, then you're overreacting far more than you accuse Marie of doing.

Get over yourself, dude.

One other thing: You say that I'd like to think I'd be the next Matthew Shepard if I came out as bisexual. In fact, you don't know shit about me. You have no fucking clue whether I'm out or not. Keep your fucking assumptions to yourself.

Peace

[swmnkdinthervr]

I would like to share a private message from SodomAndGomorrahShow and my response. Normally I would keep these things private. But since he felt the need to private message me - and request a reply - but doesn't have the guts to accept my private message response in return, this is the only way I can communicate with him.



My response:

Pot-kettle-black. If you're taking the time to send me a private message and call someone a cunty bitch over this topic, then you're overreacting far more than you accuse Marie of doing.

Get over yourself, dude.

One other thing: You say that I'd like to think I'd be the next Matthew Shepard if I came out as bisexual. In fact, you don't know shit about me. You have no fucking clue whether I'm out or not. Keep your fucking assumptions to yourself.

Peace

My response...I don't care what your issues are or the substance of your "private messages" , it is totally unacceptable to post private conversation on the public board, if there has been abuse report it to the owner/webmaster!!! A good analogy would be to "out" someone in public!!!

[darkeyes]

My response...I don't care what your issues are or the substance of your "private messages" , it is totally unacceptable to post private conversation on the public board, if there has been abuse report it to the owner/webmaster!!! A good analogy would be to "out" someone in public!!!

My response.. don't be silly..

Actually hun.. once received a private message belongs to the receiver.. if he or she wishes to post it and make it public knowledge then so be it.. tough cheese on the sender.. as for it being an analogy of outing someone it is I suppose... except for the fact that outing someone is a nasty insidious act done for nasty insidious reasons such as bigotry, and revealing the content of an unpleasant and nasty insidious missive is not and it can be easily argued is in the community interest..

..are we in your thinking, to say that receiving a written death threat in a private communication we cannot show it to the police or use it in a court of law, or if somone writes lies about another person we are to suppress that missive and allow the person offended no redress in a court of law for having been libelled?? There are some confidential and secret things in Government and the commercial world where the sender retains the right to decide upon publication or otherwise.. but we are hardly talking of that are we?

[IanBorthwick]

I open this thread and my eyes begin to bleed. Is there some real reason we're feeding S&G? I mean seriously? MArie, I'm not castigating you or Rockgardner, but S&G should be on the universal ignore by now, right? It's not possible to educate the terminally stupid, so why try?

And I have to agree, I don't feel privileged, but I do see you as NOT having a fair shake. And as someone who's lost jobs for being Bi, I know I can hide, but it sucks when you're found out and not allowed to be yourself, so I sympathize with you. But I'm in a position where I see YOU as downtrod...a LOT. So I think what they're arguing, strangely, is a perspective thing. It's rather like staring into a pool, and you're in the deep end drowning while we're being shoved into it...the only privilege we feel is more air and it can be deprived us while you're already drowning.

I don't excuse the nonsense, but I think this conveys what they're yammering on about. Anyway, stop feeding them, please?

[DuckiesDarling]

S&G appears to be gone, thankfully.

[IanBorthwick]

S&G appears to be gone, thankfully.

Really? You mean REALLY really?

<giggle>

YAY!!!

*Runs away dancing and laughing*

[coyotedude]

My response...I don't care what your issues are or the substance of your "private messages" , it is totally unacceptable to post private conversation on the public board, if there has been abuse report it to the owner/webmaster!!! A good analogy would be to "out" someone in public!!!

Under other circumstances, I might agree with you in part. I think the analogy of outing someone in public is a bit of a stretch. But in general, I prefer to keep private messages out of the public eye.

However, I stand by my decision for the reasons stated above. If you don't like that, that's your problem, not mine.

Peace

[MarieDelta]

Under other circumstances, I might agree with you in part. I think the analogy of outing someone in public is a bit of a stretch. But in general, I prefer to keep private messages out of the public eye.

However, I stand by my decision for the reasons stated above. If you don't like that, that's your problem, not mine.

Peace

I couldnt agree more.

Once mailed, such private messages are the property of the recipient, not the sender.

If the recipient chooses to make them public, that is their call.

I can thinkof a couple situations where this might be applicable / useful.

In the case of abusive messages such as the one posted.

In the case of a pedophile.

[12voltman59]

S&G really does sound much like the one long time troll we have had on here for years now---if it is the same person---it seems that he goes in cycles---for a time he must do fine on his meds and either stays away or he behaves himself--then something changes and he begins to become unhinged and one of his things is to come back here----if it is the same person I think it is--you do have to hand it to him--he sure as heck is persistent when it comes to being a bother to this site.

If it is the same person----just think---if he is this much of a bother to us in the cyber world---think of what it must be like to be around him in the "real world"---he must make life a living hell for his family, friends and the victims he fixates upon in his part of the world.

[cliffordmontero]

I find it amusing that when tenni wondered why the original poster of the other thread did not respond mariedelta response with "hm maybe he was a troll. Maybe he was just ignorant. Ignorance and apathy."

Really? Thats the first place you go?

Not the fact that his thread was hijacked by a political correctness debate, far from the original topic clearly.

Not the fact that this site is quite outdated.

Not the fact the responses he has received leave alot to be desired.

Not the fact that he shared with us an intimate fantasy and was treated with great disregard, receiving responses with really only 2 things going on, saying go for it or carrying on an offtopic conversation.

And now, if he is still checking on the site you have just personally attacked him calling him a troll, ignorant, and apathetic.

You want respect for you views and beliefs, yet you obviously care not for respecting others. Sorry, but respect is earned today, not just given. Try acting in a manner that garners respect. You find the term "tranny" insulting, yet you use terms that there is no debate as to their insulting nature.

How hypocritical of someone to tell anyone "Don't call me a tranny, its insulting, you ignorant apathetic little troll."

[MarieDelta]

I find it amusing that when tenni wondered why the original poster of the other thread did not respond mariedelta response with "hm maybe he was a troll. Maybe he was just ignorant. Ignorance and apathy."

Really? Thats the first place you go?

Not the fact that his thread was hijacked by a political correctness debate, far from the original topic clearly.

Not the fact that this site is quite outdated.

Not the fact the responses he has received leave alot to be desired.

Not the fact that he shared with us an intimate fantasy and was treated with great disregard, receiving responses with really only 2 things going on, saying go for it or carrying on an offtopic conversation.

And now, if he is still checking on the site you have just personally attacked him calling him a troll, ignorant, and apathetic.

You want respect for you views and beliefs, yet you obviously care not for respecting others. Sorry, but respect is earned today, not just given. Try acting in a manner that garners respect. You find the term "tranny" insulting, yet you use terms that there is no debate as to their insulting nature.

How hypocritical of someone to tell anyone "Don't call me a tranny, its insulting, you ignorant apathetic little troll."

First off if the OP had been so desirous of spending time with a trans woman, a little research would have shown him that a majority of us dont enjoy being referred to as "tr$nny"

Ignorance and apathy - I dont know and I dont care. He didnt know and he didnt care to take the time to find out, did he?

I tried using humor to set the matter straight, however everyone took offence.

Now, I dont know about you, but if someone wants in my britches they better show me some respect. If not ,then they wont even get to first base.

If the OP had appologized (as has happened in the past) I would have accepted his appology gracefully and we could have moved on.

Why are you so worried about it cliffordmonterro? It has what to do with you?

[**Peg**]

Jesus Christ!!!

amen !

[cliffordmontero]

You are correct MarieDelta. The topic has little to do with me personally. As a self labeled bisexual, politically correct terms for the transgendered community have little relevance to me as a person. I am, however, a volunteer and educator for a group called Southern Tier AIDS Program Inc, commonly referred to as STAP. My job is to educate others in various aspects of the LGBTQ community.

What I took offense to was your attitude regarding the use of a term. During my training, I learned that the easiest way to avoid offending anyone is to use proper nouns until a person describes themself, then use the same improper nouns and descriptors that they themselves use. In practicing that methodology I have come across many transgendered individuals who use the various terms including the term "tranny" to describe themself.

You angrily oppose the use of the term, which I said before, is your right to do. However rather than carry on in a positive manner you did what I call a "net tantrum". You essentially shut everyone with a differing view with either a copy/paste job or an insulting remark. I don't see how behaving in this manner does anything to raise your cause.

And as you, yourself, stated in a different post, the term tranny often refers to a sex trade worker. Is it not possible, then, that the original poster of the thread that started this mess was in fact looking for a sex trade worker? If so, wouldn't your whole offense in the use of the term be null and void, as he actually used the appropriate terminology?

No one in the world can every be 100&#37; politically correct. In order for that to happen we would have to create a new language, because so many descriptive terms can easily be seen as offensive to someone somewhere.