Remembrance Day [Archive]

tenni

Nov 11, 2010, 10:16 AM

Today is Remembrance Day in Canada. On the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month of the year, Canadians pause to remember those who have died in the service of the country. More specifically, this is the time that the WW1 ended with the signing of surrender.

This custom has lost much of its significance to younger Canucks until the recent Afghanistan situation. We were to leave Afghanistan as of July, 2011. Sadly, our dink political leaders may be giving way to pressure from the US to keep a good number of military persons there to "train" the Afghans.

Still, this is the time to honour those who have died under the so called belief that this has /will lead to our freedom. (can you tell that I do not believe it).

It is a sad day. It is a day of Remembrance whose meaning has increased again.

I know that the US does not hold this day in such high honour as Canadians. They have another day.

Do the British, French etc. hold this day special?

Realist

Nov 11, 2010, 10:22 AM

Today is Veteran's Day in the US.

I think it is just as poignant to us is anyone's similar time, set aside to remember those who gave their lives for their countries.

You didn't mention WWII. Canada has a significant part in those efforts as well.

tenni

Nov 11, 2010, 10:26 AM

Thanks Realist
Yes, I just googled and found that the US uses the same day and calls it Veterans Day. I knew the name but forgot that it was on the same day. You also have a "Memorial Day". Is that also to honour your soldiers who died in service of your country?

I didn't mention WW2 as Remembrance Day goes back to 11 am on November 11, 1918.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 11:39 AM

I may be a pacifist and loathe war yet I am able to remember those who gave their lives and so much of themselves in conflict. This is also Remembrance day here and people are asked to stop and remember for 2 minutes at 11 am on every 11th November. And many do. The radio and telly stations go silent for that time.

Sunday is Remembrance Sunday when many thousands attend services of remembrance and parades to remember the fallen of all conflicts not simply that of WW1. My view point may be diffferent from most but any who risked their lives and fell in conflict should be remembered for without remembrance we shall never end this endless cycle of war and destruction.

Btw.. Fran has been in the wars herself.. rawling on the floor with my daughter last night twisted me bloody knee and so couldnt drive to work.. she is a right tough little cookie that girl, and may have to give up play fighting with her!! Wee thug!!:)

falcondfw

Nov 11, 2010, 12:02 PM

Yes Tenni. Memorial day is at the end of May and is used to honor those who have given their lives in service of our country.

Nadir

Nov 11, 2010, 12:12 PM

Yes Tenni. Memorial day is at the end of May and is used to honor those who have given their lives in service of our country.

Not for "our country". I like to think that they gave their lives for something far more precious and meaningful than that. I would like to think that they gave their lives so we learnt to value ours. Or that they gave their life so we could feel safer. Or that they gave their lives for our freedom, and liberty, and justice. I dunno if Spain has a Memorial Day for their deceased in combat, but I should look it up. Both of my grandfathers fought in the Spanish Civil War and a great-uncle of mine fought in World War 2 in the Blue Division (Russian Front), as a way to "atone" of his past ties to the Second Spanish Republic. I may not agree in the ideas that war are waged upon, but I agree with everyone in that no war is good, no war is justifiable. War is hell, and thats what it is. Period.

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 1:20 PM

I may be a pacifist and loathe war yet I am able to remember those who gave their lives and so much of themselves in conflict.

Sorry, but I regard this stand as hypocritical, and I'm sick of hearing pacifists shy away from speaking their truth whenever anybody invokes fallen heroes.

Doesn't anyone else here think that honoring veterans encourages war? I'm thinking of all the young men who just want to prove themselves, demonstrate courage and willingness to sacrifice, and have that recognized by society... and see no other way to gain that recognition than to enlist.

I regard war as the ultimate sin and hypocrisy of so-called civilization. Join an army and get society's license to go to another country and do the very things that would be considered the worst crimes at home: murder, looting, rape, torture. Manage to come home alive and you will be honored as a hero. Do the same things at home and you will be jailed or executed.

There are a few times in history when war is actually necessary, and results in a people's liberation. For the most part, though, it leads only to death, oppression, and ultimately more war. In my country, for all the wars we have fought, people have to go all the way back to WWII to find justification for war. This justification requires overlooking the fact that the Nazis rose to power because the German people were tired of the draconian reparations imposed on their country after WWI, and that WWII in turn begat the Cold War, which begat the Korean and Vietnamese Wars... In 1939 Europe was told war was needed to liberate Poland. Six years of war later, Poland was a Communist dictatorship, along with most of Eastern Europe. Nice liberation.

What if as a society we regarded veterans as dupes and mass murderers, and instead celebrated the courage and sacrifices made by ordinary fathers and mothers who go on raising families amidst all the madness?

Me, I'm declaring today Draft Dodgers and Conscientious Resisters Day. My hat is off to all the brave men and women who have faced, and continue to face jail sentences, exile, and the scorn of their countrymen rather than kill their fellow man and corrupt their souls.

Nadir

Nov 11, 2010, 1:50 PM

Sorry, but I regard this stand as hypocritical, and I'm sick of hearing pacifists shy away from speaking their truth whenever anybody invokes fallen heroes.

Doesn't anyone else here think that honoring veterans encourages war? I'm thinking of all the young men who just want to prove themselves, demonstrate courage and willingness to sacrifice, and have that recognized by society... and see no other way to gain that recognition than to enlist.

I regard war as the ultimate sin and hypocrisy of so-called civilization. Join an army and get society's license to go to another country and do the very things that would be considered the worst crimes at home: murder, looting, rape, torture. Manage to come home alive and you will be honored as a hero. Do the same things at home and you will be jailed or executed.

There are a few times in history when war is actually necessary, and results in a people's liberation. For the most part, though, it leads only to death, oppression, and ultimately more war. In my country, for all the wars we have fought, people have to go all the way back to WWII to find justification for war. This justification requires overlooking the fact that the Nazis rose to power because the German people were tired of the draconian reparations imposed on their country after WWI, and that WWII in turn begat the Cold War, which begat the Korean and Vietnamese Wars... In 1939 Europe was told war was needed to liberate Poland. Six years of war later, Poland was a Communist dictatorship, along with most of Eastern Europe. Nice liberation.

What if as a society we regarded veterans as dupes and mass murderers, and instead celebrated the courage and sacrifices made by ordinary fathers and mothers who go on raising families amidst all the madness?

Me, I'm declaring today Draft Dodgers and Conscientious Resisters Day. My hat is off to all the brave men and women who have faced, and continue to face jail sentences, exile, and the scorn of their countrymen rather than kill their fellow man and corrupt their souls.

She is not, in any way, supporting war, she just feels sorry for the lives (and souls) wasted because of war. As you have said, war makes people do despicable and horrible things like rape, kill and loot. But you must admit that maybe not all soldiers who go there are rapists, looters or murderers. Some of them certainly are, and is something that has been admitted by military psychiatrists and psychologists during the last few years, armed conflicts are certainly "home" for many antisocial personalities that find no restrains or bonds to do as they please, or even it encourages people to do horrible things just because of peer pressure. But I am sure that for every soulless or misguided bastard there is at least one soldier who is doing what he thinks its right because its right. That is not fighting to kill an enemy, but to help (and/or defend) a friend. That tries to make the civilian population as comfortable as they can with their presence. You cannot dump all military personnel in the same sack. War brings the worst part of some people out. But it brings the best on others. I know that many human beings are bastards. But I refuse to think that all of them are.

Cherokee_Mountaincat

Nov 11, 2010, 2:46 PM

I know that the US does not hold this day in such high honour as Canadians. They have another day.

This is where you are wrong, Sweetums. We Americans honor the passing of Canadian Veterans on the same day that we honor Our Veterans as well. We have two seperate days that we remember our forefahers, and the sacrifices that they gave to make All of us free. Veterans' Day and Memorial day.
If I felt better, Pumpkin, I'd debate this with you further, but it aint gunna happen today. :} Let us just all honor our fallen Fathers, Brothers, and Sisters for the outstanding job they did and still Do, for all of our lives, Countries, and Freedoms.
Cat

Cherokee_Mountaincat

Nov 11, 2010, 2:54 PM

Flounder1967

Nov 11, 2010, 2:59 PM

Sorry, but I regard this stand as hypocritical, and I'm sick of hearing pacifists shy away from speaking their truth whenever anybody invokes fallen heroes.

Doesn't anyone else here think that honoring veterans encourages war? I'm thinking of all the young men who just want to prove themselves, demonstrate courage and willingness to sacrifice, and have that recognized by society... and see no other way to gain that recognition than to enlist.

I regard war as the ultimate sin and hypocrisy of so-called civilization. Join an army and get society's license to go to another country and do the very things that would be considered the worst crimes at home: murder, looting, rape, torture. Manage to come home alive and you will be honored as a hero. Do the same things at home and you will be jailed or executed.

There are a few times in history when war is actually necessary, and results in a people's liberation. For the most part, though, it leads only to death, oppression, and ultimately more war. In my country, for all the wars we have fought, people have to go all the way back to WWII to find justification for war. This justification requires overlooking the fact that the Nazis rose to power because the German people were tired of the draconian reparations imposed on their country after WWI, and that WWII in turn begat the Cold War, which begat the Korean and Vietnamese Wars... In 1939 Europe was told war was needed to liberate Poland. Six years of war later, Poland was a Communist dictatorship, along with most of Eastern Europe. Nice liberation.

What if as a society we regarded veterans as dupes and mass murderers, and instead celebrated the courage and sacrifices made by ordinary fathers and mothers who go on raising families amidst all the madness?

Me, I'm declaring today Draft Dodgers and Conscientious Resisters Day. My hat is off to all the brave men and women who have faced, and continue to face jail sentences, exile, and the scorn of their countrymen rather than kill their fellow man and corrupt their souls.

The way I see it you can't be a pacifist unless someone gave up their lives that would allow you to have yourr freedoms. It dosn't encourge war it does more to keep people from going to war. People, good people, lose ther lives on both sides.

I'm not trying to rant so pleae don't take it that way. I didn't serve but I understand what happened to Veitam war vets. I respect vets for what they did.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 3:08 PM

Sorry, but I regard this stand as hypocritical, and I'm sick of hearing pacifists shy away from speaking their truth whenever anybody invokes fallen heroes.

It is not a hypocrisy to remember the deaths of millons who were led needlessly to the slaughter.. who were lied to, who were inspired by heroic takes of derring do, of national liberty, of defence of way of life, of religion when the truth of the matter is that war is a fucking shitty business which should never be. I can remember that sacrifice but never applaud that useless, stupid, pointless waste of life.. so many millions dead for nothing other than keeping their political masters afloat, for bankrupt ideologies, for religious dominance and I can even honour many, though not all, for their bravery for dying and/or being prepared to die for the things in which they believed.. I remember the appaling cost of human bodies who survived yet were so scarred by wounds both mental and physical and the nightmares they endured throughout their lives.. I remember the loss to the civilian people of all nations, of brother father, son, wife, husband, daughter and the heartbreak and misery and deprivation so many had to live through after their loss... I remember the dead both military and civilian who lost their lives trying to save lives.. medics, firemen in air raids, the rescue workers after bombing raids, simple soldiers trying to save their comrades from drowning in a trench, merchant seamen who died when their ship was sunk while trying to deliver a people food and essential supplies...most of the dead were simple cannon fodder, and if I cannot remember them for their wasted lives, the tragedy and fucking pointlessness of it all, the sheer cost to all living annd dead, then I am neither a decent human being nor do I deserve to call my self a decent pacifist.. "lest we forget" means something different to me than to most people.. for I also remember that within those many millions who lost their lives, there are those many millions of civilians who who were caught up helplessly in those conflicts, I remember the awful destruction to our environment and many millions of other living things which war inflicts.. and I remember the brutalities of many who are not worthy of being called human, and who slaughtered so many millions of innocents who were unarmed and died just because either they were, or they were there.. this last group of the dead heartless bastards I remember but will never honour.. but I do ask why were they so heartless and act in such an evil manner?

I am indeed a pacifist.. and I remember for the reasons a pacifist should remember.. I may hate and loathe war.. and fight till my last breath for its extinction, but if I cannot honour those who fought and died for their beliefs, beliefs which I do not share, employing methods in which they believed, then I too am not worthy of being called a human being.. I remember the dead of war, and war simply and try to ensure others do, so I can do my bit to help erradicate it.. call that hypocrisy if you will.. I too believe war to be a sin, the greatest of sins, and do not support my nation or any nation taking up arms against another.. I do not fall into line and support our boys and girls when they troop of to war... quite the contrary..

...and if any of that is hypocrisy, I plead guilty... now I suggest, my dear, that you go away and think a little more about what you say and before you call people hypocrite that ou do a little investigation into why I do what I do and believe what I believe.. ffs... there is plenty Ive written in these forums over the last five years to last you a lifetime.. I do not honour war.. what I remember is the human cost of war.. the needless, stupid fucking cost..

I'm not offended by your accusation by the way.. I've been called worse things and will be again no doubt.. but think about what I've said and see if you still believe me to be hypocrite.

tenni

Nov 11, 2010, 3:23 PM

Sorry Cat
I didn't word that properly. I don't think that it is necessary for the US people to honour Canadian soldiers' who died during conflict but that is nice to read. I knew in the back of my mind as I wrote that there was another day beyond November 11 that the US people honoured their dead. We only have the one day that we take time to recognize those who died in service to our country. Can you explain how you differentiate between the two days? I have seen flags being put on graves of US soldiers during one of them (Memorial Day?).

I don't think that there is anything to debate. I am saddened more than ever that these lives have been lost in Afghanistan and many Canadians have become more vigilant that our veterans be treated fairly. Despite government words, there are indications that they are not. There is a difference between disagreeing with the politics of government decisions to take part in war and military conflict and honouring those who died in service of their country imo.

I know that the US does not hold this day in such high honour as Canadians. They have another day.

This is where you are wrong, Sweetums. We Americans honor the passing of Canadian Veterans on the same day that we honor Our Veterans as well. We have two seperate days that we remember our forefahers, and the sacrifices that they gave to make All of us free. Veterans' Day and Memorial day.
If I felt better, Pumpkin, I'd debate this with you further, but it aint gunna happen today. :} Let us just all honor our fallen Fathers, Brothers, and Sisters for the outstanding job they did and still Do, for all of our lives, Countries, and Freedoms.
Cat

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 3:40 PM

You are well within your rights to have these opinions. But somewhere down the lines, you have to thank A Veteran in Your country for getting these freedoms so you Can make these remarks.

Well, back in 1783 we gained our independence from Britain by war, and in 1812 we defended that independence when Britain invaded. No argument with our fighting either war, and I have total respect for the men who fought them. As I said before, there are a few times when war is necessary to liberate a people. My sympathies are always with the resistance to an invasion, be it the American patriots of 1812, the French resistance to the Nazis, or the Iraqis fighting Americans now.

Not really sure that, had Britain continued to rule their American colonies to this day, that I wouldn't enjoy the same freedom to post whatever I like on the Internet. Very theoretical. In any case, I do honor the people who secured our independence from the Crown, but those are the LAST wars my country fought that I can condone, and 199 years have passed since.

It's worthy of note that the main contention with Britain was taxation without representation. Today we are getting taxed far worse than King George did, and for what? It sure isn't to get us national health care or a decent educational system. No, mainly we pay 25%-33% of our wages to pay the interest on a debt that will never be payed, incurred in a fraudulent monetary system. I'm sure the Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves. Sometimes revolution is necessary to liberate a people, too.

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 3:56 PM

I may hate and loathe war.. and fight till my last breath for its extinction, but if I cannot honour those who fought and died for their beliefs, beliefs which I do not share, employing methods in which they believed, then I too am not worthy of being called a human being.

Oh OK, so it doesn't matter that you don't believe in what they fought for, or that you don't agree with their going to war for those things you don't believe in, but nonetheless you honor them for dying for what they believed in. OK. That's very bighearted of you. So, I guess you also honor the men who crashed planes into the World Trade Center, right? I mean, they bravely died for what they believed in, too. That's all that matters, never mind that what they believed in was some twisted religious crap or that their means was the slaughter of thousands of innocent people, right? Do I understand your position correctly now?

.

I'm not offended by your accusation by the way.. I've been called worse things and will be again no doubt.. but think about what I've said and see if you still believe me to be hypocrite.

I didn't call you a hypocrite. I said the stand you were taking was hypocritical. No need to take it personally.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 4:02 PM

Well, back in 1783 we gained our independence from Britain by war, and in 1812 we defended that independence when Britain invaded. No argument with our fighting either war, and I have total respect for the men who fought them. As I said before, there are a few times when war is necessary to liberate a people. My sympathies are always with the resistance to an invasion, be it the American patriots of 1812, the French resistance to the Nazis, or the Iraqis fighting Americans now.

Not really sure that, had Britain continued to rule their American colonies to this day, that I wouldn't enjoy the same freedom to post whatever I like on the Internet. Very theoretical. In any case, I do honor the people who secured our independence from the Crown, but those are the LAST wars my country fought that I can condone, and 199 years have passed since.

It's worthy of note that the main contention with Britain was taxation without representation. Today we are getting taxed far worse than King George did, and for what? It sure isn't to get us national health care or a decent educational system. No, mainly we pay 25%-33% of our wages to pay the interest on a debt that will never be payed, incurred in a fraudulent monetary system. I'm sure the Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves. Sometimes revolution is necessary to liberate a people, too.

..and there we part company absolutely..for there was no justification for either your revolution or the war of 1812.. there is NEVER justification for war... men of forethought and wisdom could have avoided both.. that they did not was not to gain freedom for the American people or on the other hand retain the colonies for the people of Great Britain but as you say for the Crown.. it was one load of rich greedy selfish bastards sending out its cannon fodder to fight the Crown and it's greedy selfish bastard's cannon fodder... the war of 1812 could also have been avoided. that it was not was again because of one load of rich greedy selfish bastards sending its cannon fodder against another's.

And to clear this point up Atiq.. the US in 1812 was heavily provoked by the British I accept and was it not a bungled US invasion of Canada which actually sparked off the conflict? That the British invaded the US is not in dispute, but I do dispute that Britain had thiis in mind when it initially did so. It did enter the minds of some British politicians, but it was never British Government policy or intent to do so.. Britain had a much more serious threat much closer to home in the nation which was your ally in both the revolution and the 1812 war. US independence was never seriously threatened although I can understand why Americans of the day felt it was.

That you can respect those who fought in those conflicts is very laudable.. yet to call me hypocrite for remembering the dead of all conflicts when I believe no conflict is ever desirable is I think the height of fucking cheek..

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 4:11 PM

And to clear this point up Atiq.. the US in 1812 was heavily provoked by the British I accept and was it not a bungled US invasion of Canada which actually sparked off the conflict?

Hmm... that sounds familiar. I admit it's been a while since I read about that war and my memory is hazy. Well, maybe if I took a closer look at it I wouldn't justify that war, either. I was trying to find some common ground here, but you're pulling it out from under my feet.

That you can respect those who fought in those conflicts is very laudable.. yet to call me hypocrite for remembering the dead of all conflicts when I believe no conflict is ever desirable is I think the height of fucking cheek..

Again, I did not call you anything. I see you like to use the word "remembering" where I am attacking the idea of "honoring". Are you remembering the vets as victims or honoring them as heroes? The former I have no problem with, it is the latter that I see as promoting war.

I am waiting for your answer to my question about the 9/11 hijackers.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 4:14 PM

Oh OK, so it doesn't matter that you don't believe in what they fought for, or that you don't agree with their going to war for those things you don't believe in, but nonetheless you honor them for dying for what they believed in. OK. That's very bighearted of you. So, I guess you also honor the men who crashed planes into the World Trade Center, right? I mean, they bravely died for what they believed in, too. That's all that matters, never mind that what they believed in was some twisted religious crap or that their means was the slaughter of thousands of innocent people, right? Do I understand your position correctly now?

.

I didn't call you a hypocrite. I said the stand you were taking was hypocritical. No need to take it personally.

There is a difference Atiq, in fighting a battle against an armed enemy and killing thousands of unarmed civilians.. dont be stupid and act so dense.. read what I said more carefully and think about it...I qualified who I honour and why.. but not who I remember.. even if I remember some for different reasons from others.. no human being has the right to take the life of another for any reason.. but those who hornourably lay down their lives against an armed enemy fighting for that in which they believe can be respected and should be remembered for the futility of it all.. even if I loathe the act of armed combat..

...and you did call me hypocrite.. if one takes a hypocritical stance then one is by definition a hypocrite.. a minor point.. but think on it..

DuckiesDarling

Nov 11, 2010, 4:21 PM

I honor all Veterans this day including those who served in the Canadian military. No matter what anyone believes about any war there have been wars since there were more than two people on this planet. It's human nature.

So let's shelve the debate about why wars are fought and what anyone thinks of any war going on now and keep this day about what the thread said. Remembrance.

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 4:24 PM

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 4:27 PM

Hmm... that sounds familiar. I admit it's been a while since I read about that war and my memory is hazy. Well, maybe if I took a closer look at it I wouldn't justify that war, either. I was trying to find some common ground here, but you're pulling it out from under my feet.

Again, I did not call you anything. I see you like to use the word "remembering" where I am attacking the idea of "honoring". Are you remembering the vets as victims or honoring them as heroes? The former I have no problem with, it is the latter that I see as promoting war.

I am waiting for your answer to my question about the 9/11 hijackers.

I do not mean honour as in award medals or fete. I mean honour their sacrifice.. (and always by qualifying what is acceptable to me as an honourable sacrifice and what is not).. not a vast difference from respect, as you apparently do for those who Ammericans who fought in the wars of 1812 and the revolution.. what about the other side Atiq? Are they not worthy of respect?

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 4:31 PM

There is a difference Atiq, in fighting a battle against an armed enemy and killing thousands of unarmed civilians..

So, you honor (or remember) infantrymen but not bomber pilots on this day?

...and you did call me hypocrite.. if one takes a hypocritical stance then one is by definition a hypocrite.. a minor point.. but think on it..

No, you might take a stance on an issue one day and reverse your opinion the next. It wouldn't change who you are. You are not your beliefs. This may sound too obvious to mention, but if you understand this, why take it personally when a stance you have taken is challenged?

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 4:35 PM

I have to add something more: one thing that pisses me off about Remembrance/Veterans Day and Memorial Day is that we are supposed to honor ALL veterans on these days, regardless of whether they were liberating concentration camps or dropping napalm on farmers. So all these arguments about SOME wars being justifiable and SOME soldiers being honorable hold no fucking water for me.

Before WWII, November 11 wasn't called Remembrance Day or Veterans Day. Anybody know what it was called? Armistice Day. That's right, November 11 originally commemorated the END of World War I. Now it's about honoring anybody who went off to fight any war for any reason. Why is that, if I am so wrong in perceiving a culture of glorifying war here?

Any time I see people getting lump-throated over veterans I smell the next war brewing. It makes me want to puke.

I know what I'm saying here is ruffling a lot of feathers. I will not apologize.
http://www.flagsofallcountries.com/Organizations/Anarchy/anarchy_lw.gif

Now your gettin it Atiq.. just how I remember and why.. who I honour and why.. because a person dies in war does not qualify him or her automtically for respect or honour.. I doubt even the most military of men will think we honour the worst of men or women who may have died in wartime.. but we must remember the sacrifice, but never close our eyes to what that sacrifice very often entailed..

..and we arent that far apart Atiq in how we think.. not really..:)

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 4:56 PM

So, you honor (or remember) infantrymen but not bomber pilots on this day?

No, you might take a stance on an issue one day and reverse your opinion the next. It wouldn't change who you are. You are not your beliefs. This may sound too obvious to mention, but if you understand this, why take it personally when a stance you have taken is challenged?

No.. I do not honour a bomber pilot any crew that has bombed civilian targets as the British did with their terror bombing in WW2.. certainly not for that horrific unjustifiable act.. but bomber crews did not always attack civilian targets even in the RAF in WW2, which makes it somewhat more difficult. I may just be able to do so for action against military targets, but even then very often I have doubts because of the unpredictability of what is now known as collateral damage.. a very sanitised way of saying killing civilians who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.. war is morass of unpredictability and stupidity is it not?? I may be able very often to honour the bravery of those who died in war.. I can never approve of any of their actions which are intent on destroying the lives of others..

..and I am 2 a great extent the sum of my beliefs Atiq.. Ive taken it much less personally than you believe.. they are not all of who I am, and I can and do change them.. if you think arguing for what I believe is taking it personally you are very much mistaken

jamieknyc

Nov 11, 2010, 5:44 PM

Some wars are justified. Pacifists who refused to fight against Hitler were moral criminals.

NotLostJustWandering

Nov 11, 2010, 5:57 PM

Some wars are justified. Pacifists who refused to fight against Hitler were moral criminals.

An understandable position. But tell me, did the need to fight Hitler justify the "internment" of Japanese-Americans into concentration camps, the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the numerous atrocities committed by Allied soldiers, and the handing over of Eastern Europe to the Soviet Union for a half-century of Communism?

ukmale32

Nov 11, 2010, 6:17 PM

today was indeed an important day here in the uk, but - 35 muslim men decided to ...

I can't actually be bothered to write about it actually - I've lost a lost of heart with this site & it's sad, but a lot of people died fighting for freedom that has over many years been given away anyway. Have to wonder how much worse things would now be if we'd lost & those lives not lost.

I will however, stand up & be counted - today, had I have been in London I would have fought these awful 35 men. They were not awful because they were muslims.

Anyway - night.

Hephaestion

Nov 11, 2010, 6:20 PM

Is it not worthwhile remembering the fallen on all sides of military conflict?

"lest we forget" is the adopted phrase.

Perhaps one day the young will ask about such a widespread act. Maybe they will take the time to research the lost lives, the propaganda and the repurcussions versus the gains. Perhaps they will learn to examine all wars in this way.

The below was spawned by the first truly mechanised war where men's bodies, faith, and courage were pitched against the impossible conditions bestowed by industrialisation.

Out of this conflict grew the concepts of the mobile war and surgical strike. A Star Trek episode (series 1) identified the palatable war as logical development - back in the 1960's.

One French farmer has preserved some of his land as it finished at the end of WW1 complete with unexploded ordnance and fragmented men. It is a true war grave.

---------------------------------------------------
Eric Bogle 1975
variously called William McBride, No Man's Land, the Green Fields of France AKA Flowers of the Forest

Well how do you do Private William McBride
Do you mind if I sit here down by your grave side
And I'll rest for a while in the warm summer sun
I've been walking all day and I'm nearly done
And I see by your gravestone you were only 19
When you joined the glorious fallen back in 1916
Well I hope you died quick and I hope you died clean
Or William McBride was it slow and obscene

Did they beat the drum slowly
Did they play the fyfe lowly
Did the rifles fire o'er you
As they lowered you down
Did the bugles play the Last Post in chorus
Did the pipes play the Flowers o' the Forrest

And did you leave a wife or a sweetheart behind
In some faithful heart is your memory enshrined
And though when you died it was 1916
In some faithful heart are you forever 19
Or are you a stranger without even a name
Enshrined forever behind the glass pane
Of an old photograph, torn and tattered and stained
And fading to yellow in a brown leather frame

Ah the sun's shining now on these green fields of France
The warm winds blow gently and the red poppies dance
The trenches have vanished under the plough
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now
But here in the graveyard it's still No-Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To Man's blind indifference to his fellow-man
To a whole generation who were butchered and damned

And I can't help but wonder now William McBride
Do all those who lie here know why they died
Did you really believe them when they told you the cause
Did you really believe that this war would end wars
Well the suffering and the sorrow and the glory, the shame
The killing the dying, the dying, it was all done in vain
For Willie McBride, it all happened again
And again, and again and again and again.....

mikey3000

Nov 11, 2010, 6:33 PM

Any time I see people getting lump-throated over veterans I smell the next war brewing. It makes me want to puke.

Dude, if you can't stand behind our soldiers, please feel free to stand in front of them.

Canada in the First World War and the Road to Vimy Ridge

In Flanders Fields

In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.

- John McCrae

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 6:50 PM

Some wars are justified. Pacifists who refused to fight against Hitler were moral criminals.

This Atiq is a scandalous and scurrilous statement.. many pacifists died fighting the Nazis right across Europe by aiding and abetting the many jewish people to survive by hiding them, feeding them and where possible attempting to smuggle them out from the clutches of the Nazis.. they worked feverishly and at great risk to themselves to hide and feed Airmen and help them escape to safety. They did the same for escaped allied prisoners, for political prisoners and those considered enemies of the state and under threat of arrest and execution or deportation to the death camps. They worked, many within the civil service and other institutions both state owned and private business to undermine the nazi military, security, political and economic machine. Many pacifists worked and died as medics on the battlefield and undertook other non combatant duties also at risk to themselves.. there were many pacifists in the merchant marine's of all nations involved in the conflicts, and their bones lie at the bottom of the ocean...

Those pacifists who did nothing as you put it, did not do so because of their principled hatred and objection to the taking of another human life.. and often because of the fear they had by putting their families at risk by acting otherwise. I do not consider any of those people moral cowards at all but people of principle for whom the lives of others, even their enemy, is much more precious to them than their own. There were far greater moral cowards and degenerates in all nations than pacifists. Profiteers, spivs, nazis and fascists, those within the camps who were Jewish for instance who were given privileges and allowed to survive for assisting the Nazis in commtting the most appalling cruelties on their own people, or within the ghettos aided the Nazis in transporting their own people to the camps and those who betrayed others to save their own skin, powerful and rich businessmen in certain countries at war with Germany who even at the height of the war, traded with Nazi Germany for profit..

No Jamie.. I do take issue about your claim that war can be justified.. but I am absolutely scathing about your accusation that for being a pacifist that they did not fight Hitler and the Nazis in their own way were therefore moral criminals.. there were many millions in all nations, including your own who avoided for reasons of their own, fighting against Hitler.. far more than there were pacifists.. and yet I would not dream of tarring them all with the the brush of being a moral criminal, even although many plainly were..

Nadir

Nov 11, 2010, 6:56 PM

Those are beautiful poem, guys :) I think that I had already read the one about Flanders...

By the way, I am trying to post another thread, this one with a poll. How do you post a poll in the forum, can someone tell me? :S I would be very grateful.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 7:09 PM

Ahhh Heph..the Fran party piece tyvm me luffly... have sung Green Fields more times than I care to remember... that and Bogles And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda are two of me fave anti war songs.. but the greatest of all war poetry is that of the incomporable Wilfred Owen, himself a soldier who was killed just a week before the end of WWI.. this is probably the most famous and is certainly me favourite...

Anthem for Doomed Youth
by Wilfred Owen

What passing-bells for these who die as cattle?
Only the monstrous anger of the guns.
Only the stuttering rifles' rapid rattle
Can patter out their hasty orisons.
No mockeries for them; no prayers nor bells,
Nor any voice of mourning save the choirs, -
The shrill, demented choirs of wailing shells;
And bugles calling for them from sad shires.

What candles may be held to speed them all?
Not in the hands of boys, but in their eyes
Shall shine the holy glimmers of good-byes.
The pallor of girls' brows shall be their pall;
Their flowers the tenderness of patient minds,
And each slow dusk a drawing-down of blinds

Hephaestion

Nov 11, 2010, 7:20 PM

Hephaestion

Nov 11, 2010, 7:31 PM

Waltzing Matilda

When I was a young man I carried my pack and I lived the free life of a rover
From the Murray's green basin to the dusty outback I waltzed my Matilda all over
Then in 1915 the country said 'son, it's time to get ready there' work to be done'
So they gave me a tin hat and they gave me a gun and they marched me away to the war..... etc

Know it well.

And some of Wilfred Owen

There was an ER / Casualty documentary one night and they interviewed the young combatants after their gun battles who were shocked to find that there was nothing glorious in fighting and certainly no film gentle deaths. There was severe pain and long term / life long incapacity. Deaths of friends were messy, painful, often incontinent, and usually took place in a gutter.
.

darkeyes

Nov 11, 2010, 8:12 PM

Darkeyes - Small adendum to your piece on pacifists - some of those helping the oppressed of the fanatical Nazis were the German people themselves who found they were living in a nightmare. Hence Schindler's list.

Very true Heph and I do not wish to minimise the astonishing efforts of those brave Germans who fought in their own way and sacrificed very often everything in opposing the Nazis. Not all were pacifist and probably in reality very few were. My post was in response to a scurrilous criticism of people who held simlar beliefs to myself. I have never advocated do nothing when faced with an evil oppression, merely that whatever our actions are that they do not take life. I hope that if ever faced with the worst, as were the people of nazi Germany, that I have the courage to do what I can in oppostion to that evil as bravely as did those pacifists in Europe during WW2, and as they did, without taking another human life.

I have no doubt of my courage to fight wrongs in my society, and oppose what I believe are massive wrongs committed by the state.. but my society is still a liberal democracy and I have many freedoms which those people in Europe and Germany did not, nor do I have the fear of arrest for nothing other than my political beliefs or even my sexuality (at least I hope I dont.. but these days who can tell).. but how I would react should my country ever be as was Nazi Germany I will never know until it happens.. I hope I can live up to the beliefs I hold so dear.

Another point you made.. I too believe, and think I made it clear in my other posts, that in remembering the dead on Remembrance Day, we do not simply remember the dead of our own land, but of all nations and peoples, and the tragedy that is war..

RCN052

Nov 11, 2010, 10:47 PM

Former Canadian military serviceman here. I have lived in the US for many years and have always been accepted to US memorial and Remembrance day events as a fellow person of honor. A US Marine once told me he had high honor for Canadians who stood on the line of defense knowing they were not the most powerful military but still put themselves in danger to defend freedom. I salute all my fellow soldier, sailors and airmen in Canada, The US, England, France and all honorable service men and women around the world.

firefighter38111

Nov 12, 2010, 1:42 AM

I hold in honor all days of remembrance to those who dies in the service of their country but I didn’t know the Canadians had a day. Every country has a day of remembrance to their fallen heroes.
I don’t hold any different special feelings to any country that relies on the USA to be their primary source of defense. I am not sure the US gives your country any need or obligation to help in Afghanistan. Your country is basically a pacifist country which is ok because if your in a jam you call the US to help you.
I am a former Navy Seal and later Delta F. I do not recall any contact or assistance from your country in anything we did. You and the French are both good for running your mouths and doing little. From what I understand from friends in Backwater; they provide security for your bases. I feel in debt for the brave Canadians that served their country and some lost their lives but don’t start with the US have made yall play in war. As far as I am concerned, we would be better off without your country involved. Canada is the most 1-800- u owe me –country in the world.
So get off your pity pot and make more room from the military deserters that come from the US to your lovely country

mikey3000

Nov 12, 2010, 6:01 PM

Realist

Nov 12, 2010, 6:09 PM

Firefighter, read this.

(The Canadians are over there and doing the jobs they were trained for, too)

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres.asp

From US veteran

firefighter38111

Nov 13, 2010, 2:57 AM

LOL!!! Then you are quite ignorant and doubtful a navy seal or anything you claim. Try doing your homework before you hit the enter button, dude.

I did my homework and yes, I was dumb enough to be what I said. The Canadians who are over there are because they believe in what’s right even though the war is wrong and I acknowledged all countries have a day of remembrance including Canada but yours nor our day is no more important than any country that has had those die in service to their country no matter where their country is.
If you have ever been in combat you will soon find out the war isn’t about your country any more but its about you and them and survival. I may have went on missions because it was my duty but after the mission started the rules of why I was there changed to my unit, my friends and my job.
Some of the first casualties of the war were Canadians’ killed by friendly fire from a US fighter plane. I think there were 5 KIA’s.
What pissed me off to write what I did was the comment essentially blaming the US for Canada’s involvement. Your country is just like ours. You have individuals who like going to war just like our spec ops people. As a whole I do see your country as basically a pacifist country who sees the US as a protector and hence puts little effort into a strong military. If either of our country gets in that big a jam its going to take all of us to get out. Allowing the draft dodgers to chill up there pisses me off.
As far as individuals I see there is little difference between us but as a country. Canada sees the US as a big nipple to suck on. Problem is we both have grown up. We aint got no milk and yall have teeth.

NW6942

Nov 13, 2010, 3:23 AM

It doesn't matter, and anyone telling you anything less doesn't know what they are talking about.

You can say these wars are wrong. Perhaps you own stock in a company that makes bullets and going into war will raise your stock 100X full. You can shout "He is a tyrant who kills the innocent!" all the while ignoring the fact that 15,000+ civilians will die in the course of the war. Many more will die due to stress of the recession and depression. But it doesn’t matter…..

Why, because on the battlefield we fight for each other. The rest is propaganda. We will fight for each other in the eyes of tyranny because we are all united in a special way – being human. The head of Tyranny in Iraq was Sodom. And while some peoples motives for this war may have been driven by politics and greed, at the end of the day we fought for each other.

tenni

Nov 13, 2010, 8:02 AM

[QUOTE=firefighter38111;187319] Post 40

I think that there is some truth in what you write and soldiers do what they are told to do. Once in a conflict it is about survival. The difference in perspective is just that. It is interesting to read your thoughts on Canada as a pacifist country. We use to refer to it as Peace Keepers. That is perhaps different than pacifism but let's not debate in a thread intended to remember the sacrifices of those who served their country and did what they were told by their government. I don't know a pacifist country. All countries will defend themselves if invaded. That is different than being a military aggressor.

When I was a child, we were told that Remembrance Day was started to remember those who died in a belief that those deaths would bring peace. Conflicts should be resolved without violence so that soldiers do not have to die. In that sense Canada was a peace seeking country rather than a military aggressor. If that is pacifism so be it.

Canucks do not see ourselves as being protected by the US while you do. It seems US people, like yourself, like to see your country as a protector rather than a global dominator. I had written much about NORAD and NATO as far as Canada, Afghanistan and the US are concerned and your perception about our two countries. I've removed it because that is not the reason for the thread.

This thread is not about the politics though. It is about remembering those who served their country and died. Let's end this and respect the dead. Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations.
[/B]

darkeyes

Nov 13, 2010, 9:09 PM

Let's honour them and respect what their sacrifice has been. Let's insure that both of our governments honour them by insisting that there be no cut backs in services for those who survived such horrible situations. [/B]
[/B]

Not without reservation Tenni me darlin'.. many do not deserve either honour or respect...

DuckiesDarling

Nov 14, 2010, 12:26 AM

Not without reservation Tenni me darlin'.. many do not deserve either honour or respect...

Fran, hon, I love you but you really need to follow your own quote. There is absolutely no reason, no matter your own PERSONAL opinions about a cause, to sit on a forum and deliberately insult servicemen and women who gave all for a cause.

darkeyes

Nov 14, 2010, 3:27 AM

Fran, hon, I love you but you really need to follow your own quote. There is absolutely no reason, no matter your own PERSONAL opinions about a cause, to sit on a forum and deliberately insult servicemen and women who gave all for a cause.

You may feel that way Darlin' darlin'.. but not all of the millions who died in the name of the cause are deserving of it... I can easily respect, for all my pacifism those who died in battle fighting for the things in which they believe.. but I make no apologies for not respecting or honouriing those who, with malice born from personal, idelogical or causal enmity, took the life of, and perpetrated all sorts of atrocities upon any who were unarmed.. that respect and honour spreads to those who surivived a conflict.. but dont ask me to respect and honour sericemean adn women who have comitted acts of thoughtless, evil and stupid brutality in the name for any reason.. do you respect and honour the murderers of My Lai or Bloody Sunday? The SS soldiers who butchered millions in WW2? The Soviet soldiers who raped hundreds of thousands of women in Berlin and other German cities in 1945, the British soldiers of bloody Sunday or who slaughtered so many unarmed and wonded Zulu warriors after the seige of Rorke's drift or strapped prisoners to a cannon after the mutiny in India , the Belgian who committed such appalling atrocities in the Congo, the Japanese who did such awful things in the name of Emperor, the Mongol or Roman who slaughtered so pitilessly in ages past.

No Darlin' darlin'.. u may support and honour such people.. I'm afraid I cannot...

DuckiesDarling

Nov 14, 2010, 3:43 AM

darkeyes

Nov 14, 2010, 4:07 AM

Did you even read what the thread was about? Remembrance Day in Canada. Their way of honoring the dead from World War I. Do not bring anything else into it, Fran. And our honoring our Vets on the days Americans set aside for doing so in no way glorifies things like the My Lai massacre. You talk out of both sides of your mouth on this issue. People every day do things in the name of duty whether they be military or police or firemen or teachers. Somehose who times we don't agree with some of the things they have to do in their quest to do their job but it doesn't make them any less a person who is deserving of the respect and tolerance you ask for in your sig. You want respect as a pacifist while looking down on those that served. Look to your own bloody history of Scotland and tell me who died for the freedom you enjoy right now.

Remembrance Day is not about remembering veterans..it is about remembering those who died in battle or honourably in the service of their country and the appalling cost of conflict.. I remember it in my own way.. and I remember it is an appalling waste of soldier and civilian alike... and I remember also that simply because one is a soldier, sailor or airman who died does not automatically qualify him or her for my respect or honour..many were, and are butchers and bastards.. yes Darlin' darlin'.. I read and understood the thread.. it is not who and what we are which qualifies us for honour and respect, but what we do and how we live our lives.. a war criminal is a war criminal.. whether or not he or she has or had on a uniform when he or she committed his or her crimes and simply obeyed orders does not alter that simple fact...

Hephaestion

Nov 14, 2010, 7:12 AM

Although the thread started out mentioning Canada, the original allied forces from WW1 use the same occasion to remember their war dead. So it is Remembrance Day in many countries.

Understandably the commemoration has spread to include other conflicts, in part because the number of survivors from WW1 has almost vanished. The latter day conflicts cause controversy in what is revealed but the nevertheless they are there.

One set of arguments suggests that all war dead should be respected. Another set of arguments suggests that not all soldiers are worthy of that respect in as much as atrocities were commmitted in their activities. In this Darkeyes is right. There are some who are not worthy even from our side.

However, everyone seems to agree that war is associated with needless waste of life.

What we all hope that is being remembered are those nameless many on all sides who prayed to the same God and trustingly gave their lives in their country's cause without attached shame. This is epitomised in the tomb of the unknown warrior, housing a randomly selected unidentifiable body of a soldier from WW1 represeting the countless lost in equal anonymity.

Soldiers are glorified. Perhaps there should there be a Remembrance Day for the wasted innocent civilians of conflict? The USSR in WW2 would seem to be eligible for 1st place, unless the Chinese can say 'better'.

tenni

Nov 14, 2010, 10:51 AM

Remembrance Day is not about remembering veterans..it is about remembering those who died in battle or honourably in the service of their country and the appalling cost of conflict.. I remember it in my own way.. and I remember it is an appalling waste of soldier and civilian alike... and I remember also that simply because one is a soldier, sailor or airman who died does not automatically qualify him or her for my respect or honour..many were, and are butchers and bastards.. yes Darlin' darlin'.. I read and understood the thread.. it is not who and what we are which qualifies us for honour and respect, but what we do and how we live our lives.. a war criminal is a war criminal.. whether or not he or she has or had on a uniform when he or she committed his or her crimes and simply obeyed orders does not alter that simple fact...

I would like to clear something up about Canada's Remembrance Day.

Yes, like Britain and the US it started with Armitace Day honouring the sacrifices of WW1 soldiers. Like both the other countries, it expanded to include the sacrifices of soldiers in WW2 and the Korean War. It now includes and has for awhile all military who sacrifice their live in duty for their country. This included all military who died in the line of duty whether on a battle field or not. It included those who died while serving as Blue Barret Peace Keepers under the UN. This is where it seems to differ from the US. We honour those who died for Peace and trying to keep the peace between conflicting groups. This is where someone got the idea that Canada is a pacifist nation. We are very proud of serving the UN and humankind in this manner. We do include those veterans and they are proudly present during Remembrance Day honouring their fellow soldiers who died and those who are wounded in several different ways. They proudly wear their Blue Barret on Remembrance Day. It is a day of honouring and remembering those who served and sacrificed. It may just have a slightly different emphasis than the US Veteran's Day. I looked up Memorial Day and see it as remembering more the dead than veterans who survived? I may be wrong. In that sense we use November 11 in a slightly different way and may be closer to Britain in Remembrance Day services etc.?

The Day has gained much more significance with the deaths of so many in Afghanistan and the undeclared so called "war"(really propping up a rather corrupt regime lead by Karzai.) I'm not sure if it is true still but more Canadians have died in Afghanistan per capita and per numbers of military personnell in Afghanistan than any other country supposedly supporting "freedom".

I am wandering into a too political position. Let me say that darkeyes raises an interesting point as to whether a country should honour and remember those who died in less than "honourable" situations. Presently, we remember those who died in Afghanistan and whether it is a just cause is left away from the ceremonies. I suspect that is the same for Britain and the US.

What changed this year were two things. This is the first year that a WW1 veteran was not alive. He actually ended up living his life out in the US. The second thing that marred the day was the PM Harper announcing the extension of military staying in Afghanistan (to 2013) to "train" Afghan troops after a Parliamentary motion to remove all military by July 2011. It was wrong for him to bring that in so close to such a day of remembrance imo as well as others. The pressure did come from the US and if a US person doesn't know or believe it. That is their problem and perspective. I understand that the US has pressured other NATO countries to stay to train as well. Only Netherlands has completely removed their troops and the news is that the US is pressuring them to return. (whether this gets into US media or not)

So, Canada definitely honours and remembers all who have died in military service to our country and not just WW1.

darkeyes

Nov 14, 2010, 8:33 PM

Most people here still call it Armistice Day, Tenni, although some like me prefer Remembrance because it is about much more than the fallen of one war which ended over 90 years ago. The last British suvivor who fought in WWI died earlier this year and it has long since been expanded to refer to all of Britains dead (and maimed) in conflicts subsequent to that awful quagmire of death.

May I just correct you a little on what I mean by not being able to respect or honour all who died. Many SS died bravely fighting both the russians and western allied forces.. this does not mean I can accord to them honour necessarily.. for it is how they conducted themselves prior to that death which would settle the matter.. did they for instance slaughter innocent Russian or Ukrainian civilans, murder surrendered allied prisoners, were involved as camp guards and executioners in the death camps. Similiarly, it is known that British soldiers killed unarmed civilans and surrendered axis prisoners in both the European and Asian theatres of war, they raped axis women, and treated many civilians, men women and children, appallingly.. it is known that British soldiers tortured and executed enemy prisoners summarily... it is known that British soldiers fired upon their own citizens in Northern Ireland and lied afterward to protect their own skin.. it is known that RAF bomber crews killed untold thousands in Harris's terror raids on Germany by area bombing and laid whole cities to waste.. it is known that in Iraq, British soldiers tortured Iraqi civilians.. in Afganistan have been responsible for the deaths of innocent civilans and not always accidentally.. many of these died on active service and died bravely.. does their brave death excuse their crimes? I would argue not.. a war crime is a war crime... no matter on whose side the perpetrator.. and a war criminal is not in my view worthy of our respect, no matter the manner of his or her death..