US Ignored Iraqi Torture

[tenni]

Wikileaks has released almost 400,000 secret US military records, which suggest US commanders ignored evidence of torture by the Iraqi authorities.

The documents also suggest "hundreds" of civilians were killed at US military checkpoints after the invasion in 2003.

And the files show the US kept records of civilian deaths, despite previously denying it. The death toll was put at 109,000, of whom 66,081 were civilians.
The documents also appear to show that the US military falsely claimed that there were no official statistics available on the death toll in Iraq. They give a total of more than 109,000 violent deaths between 2004 and the end of 2009.

This includes 66,081 civilians, 23,984 people classed as "enemy", 15,196 members of the Iraqi security forces, and 3,771 coalition troops.
Iraq Body Count, which collates civilian deaths using cross-checked media reports and other figures such as morgue records, said that based on an analysis of a sample of 860 logs, it estimated that around 15,000 previously unknown civilian deaths would be identified.

An IBC spokesperson commented: "It is totally unacceptable that for so many years the US government has withheld from the public these essential details about civilian casualties in Iraq."

"Every recoverable detail about the human death toll in Iraq, and in all other conflicts around the world, must be brought to light. Only such detailed and specific knowledge makes the full human consequences of war impossible to deny."

The Guardian newspaper also reported that the US military appeared not to have recorded any civilian deaths during its two major offensives on the city of Falluja in 2004.

We found, with relative ease, reports of horrible abuse committed by Iraqi security forces on detainees - beatings, electrocution, the use of an electric drill on a man's legs. The Americans were aware the abuse had taken place. On some, not all, of these reports was marked "no further investigation", suggesting that American forces took no action on learning of the abuse.

The true lessons contained in these documents will take months or years to emerge. But an early question they pose is:

why do Iraqi security forces appear to be continuing practices that might have died with the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime?

And what has the United States done to end them?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11611319

[Long Duck Dong]

ok tenni, with your vast military experience and knowledge, what do you make of the situation......

what do you make of this issue based around your experience in the military and your experience with military missions and manoveurs in a combat situation

[Realist]

I will say only this: Few, who are from this side of the pond, know the mind-set and thought process, of people in that part of the world.

I know there probably has been things that would make the authors of Geneva convention quake in their shoes, on both sides. But, I've never seen an American, or Canadian, or Briton, chop off anyone's head on TV! I don't condone, or refute what goes on over there, because although I worked for the military for 30 years, I haven't been there to see for myself.

I doubt if anyone who has been safe and comfy over here, could fathom the terror and danger faced every day in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You certainly can't depend on the media for accurate, information. No one should take their word for gospel, as far as I'm concerned. I damned sure don't! Who can you trust, these days? Certainly not the insurgents, probably not everyone on our side, either....for the whole truth, anyway.

Personally, I think we should have closed down our borders and let them all kill each other off, like they've done since before time.

It's a mess, but I'm not gonna sit here and blame anyone, without eye-ball contact with the TRUTH! No doubt we'll never be privy to the "whole truth and nothing but the truth" in our life-time!

No one can make an accurate assessment, without it.

That's my take on it and all I"m saying.

[TaylorMade]

I'm wondering what Wikileaks will be doing for the informants cited in these documents that will be no doubt be targeted by the insurgents. . . thus keeping the cycle of violence going.

F*ck Julian Assange and his public masturbation.

*Taylor*

[Pasadenacpl2]

As soon as I saw this hit Wikileaks, I knew Tenni would post about it.:rolleyes:

Context. It matters.

The one thing my father said to me about Vietnam (he wouldn't say much) was that unless you had been there, you just didn't know enough to make an educated statement about it. I nodded to him and said something about Monday morning quarterbacking. He replied that Monday morning quarterbacks at least knew the basics of the game.

If you aren't there, you don't know shit about the context. Period.

Pasa

[void()]

There is a lot which could be said and lots that couldn't be. I'll err upon simply culling a voice back into itself. Suffice it to say, it is what it is, and blathering here will not alter it. Not sure much can alter it except perhaps, an evolution. War is a needless terror and racket in my opinion, which is shared by many others. And that's all I will say for it is all fair to say.

[NotLostJustWandering]

No surprise.



"... Only such detailed and specific knowledge makes the full human consequences of war impossible to deny."

Yep. This is the kind of thing the jingoists need to read.

[NotLostJustWandering]

The one thing my father said to me about Vietnam (he wouldn't say much) was that unless you had been there, you just didn't know enough to make an educated statement about it.

So should we keep waging war so that we can keep getting educated?

[NotLostJustWandering]

I will say only this: Few, who are from this side of the pond, know the mind-set and thought process, of people in that part of the world.

This is exactly the kind of language that enables otherwise good people to approve of war. It begins with imagining that people in another part of the world are somehow less than human, or that they are uncivilized and need our help sorting things out.



I know there probably has been things that would make the authors of Geneva convention quake in their shoes, on both sides. But, I've never seen an American, or Canadian, or Briton, chop off anyone's head on TV!

No, the media-savvy commit their atrocities off-camera.

[Long Duck Dong]

tenni you forgot to post about the other side of things..... but I guess there were no us people involved so its not important

Iraq drops charges over killing of six UK army police

AP

Last Updated: Oct 11, 2010

A Baghdad court today cleared two Iraqi men charged with taking part in the mob killing of six British military policemen in 2003, saying there was no eyewitnesses to link the accused to the killings.

The case has been closely followed in Britain, which was the second-largest military contingent in the US-led invasion and once had 46,000 troops in Iraq.

Chief Justice Baleagh Hamdi Hikmat dropped the charges after no firsthand testimony on the slayings was presented in Baghdad's Central Criminal Court. The three-judge panel questioned nine people, mostly Iraqi police, but none said they saw the killings of the Royal Military Police officers in southern Iraq.

One of those questioned, however, said he saw one defendant carrying the weapon of a dead British soldier. The court said it will pursue charges on the theft, but the case in the murders was dropped.

British officials said a gang of Iraqis in June 2003 chased the Royal Military Police soldiers, known as Red Caps, into a police station, where they were shot. The soldiers had been assigned to train local police in the town of Al Majar al-Kabir, about 195 kilometres north of Basra, in the months after fall of Saddam Hussein's regime. A British inquest in 2006 concluded the soldiers had been given substandard equipment, including inadequate radio communications.

Eight Iraqis were arrested earlier this year in connection with the murders, but charges were dropped against all but two men. Last year, British forces formally handed over control of their last outposts to the Iraqi military. At least 179 British personnel were killed in Iraq.

[darkeyes]

As soon as I saw this hit Wikileaks, I knew Tenni would post about it.:rolleyes:

Context. It matters.

The one thing my father said to me about Vietnam (he wouldn't say much) was that unless you had been there, you just didn't know enough to make an educated statement about it. I nodded to him and said something about Monday morning quarterbacking. He replied that Monday morning quarterbacks at least knew the basics of the game.

If you aren't there, you don't know shit about the context. Period.

Pasa

Context.. humanity's justification for all sorts of inhumanity, barbarity and injustice..

Context.. slaughter, maiming, death, destruction, greed, bullying, massacres, lies, cover ups, intolerance, imperialism, intimidation and more..

Why do we need to be there to know its a fucking awful mess and that for every 1 allied soldier or civilian killed or injured.. there are hundreds if not thousands on the other side casualties of what u call context.. should we not know of the inhumanties engineered and perpetrated in our name? We hear often enough of those engineered and perpetrated by "the other side"....

..it has nothing to do with context.. what it has to do with is inconvenience..

[darkeyes]

I'm wondering what Wikileaks will be doing for the informants cited in these documents that will be no doubt be targeted by the insurgents. . . thus keeping the cycle of violence going.

F*ck Julian Assange and his public masturbation.

*Taylor*

As I understand it, names have been deleted to protect such informants and any who may be at risk, so that tends to debollox that little argument Taylor.. sorry, I havent had a chance to read what has been published yet, but I shall...:)

..but if half of what I have learned so far is truth, then it begs the question.. who are the wankers?

[Realist]

AHA!

Fran you said you were taking off, taking a sabbatical, but you couldn't stand it, could you?

Things like this fires you up and you could not refrain from getting into it, could you?

You might as well hang on, someone else will bring up something soon, that you can't stay out of!

[Pasadenacpl2]

War is hell. That is all.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

AHA!

Fran you said you were taking off, taking a sabbatical, but you couldn't stand it, could you?

Things like this fires you up and you could not refrain from getting into it, could you?

You might as well hang on, someone else will bring up something soon, that you can't stay out of!

It bloody is an all... wish u lot wud sit down an rite nice harmless lil threads bout knittin or sewin.. yas keep bringin up stuff wich has me chompin at bit as me told mumsie!!:eek:

*thinks* "Ya wanna stay outa 'ere, shortarse.. don effin look in..."

[darkeyes]

War is hell. That is all.

Pasa

..and if I may ask? In what context do you mean that Pasa dear?

[tenni]

My question is about the ethics of the US and acceptance of such deceit by the US people. The US stated that they were not or could not keep track of the civilians killed in Iraq. Speculation was wide ranging. Even these documents list of killed civilians may be skewed to the lower number.

I have my theory and I can almost guess Pasa & LDD's position.(war is hell ..."that'll do it" type of simplistic statements).

Why the lies from the US government to its own people and the world?

Are the US people not outraged at being lied to by their government?

not even some?

Perhaps not. After all, I read a lot of support for justification of torture and violation of the Geneva Conventions on another site by US people long before this. So, what if the Iraqi forces do it too? We did. It must for "freedom, justice and the American way", eh?

Having written that, I expect my own government to be found out that it has violated the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan. There has been strong attempts to keep this from the public or at least some evidence.

[Realist]

Here's my idea of torture:

One time, about a 100 years ago while I was asleep, my GF tied me the to the bed, then woke me up. She stripped to her waist and dangled her breasts just out of reach of my lips. Oh, God.........They were awesome!

Oh, what misery! It was terrible.........the cruelty of it all!

I stuck my tongue out, but she kept it a fraction of an inch from her nipple! When I protested, she said I was being punished for over-sleeping. ( I'd promised her to take her out to eat and the movies)

Luckily, she got herself so aroused that she had to untie me!

GEEZ, women can be so cruel!

[chook]

It bloody is an all... wish u lot wud sit down an rite nice harmless lil threads bout knittin or sewin.. yas keep bringin up stuff wich has me chompin at bit as me told mumsie!!:eek:

*thinks* "Ya wanna stay outa 'ere, shortarse.. don effin look in..."

Knitting and sewing........Yeah Right???????? :rolleyes:



Cheers Chook :bigrin:

[void()]

"Why the lies from the US government to its own people and the world?"

There are any number of reasons for any number of days. Some say oil, heroin, slave trade. Who really knows, except the government? In my opinion it is probably ultimately about debt in some way.


"Are the US people not outraged at being lied to by their government?"

Many of us are. But what may we do about it? Elections do not work. They especially do not when you only have a choice of two evils, and hope you're able to pick the lessor.

Should we rebel? Yes, just what we need, more war. Besides the government would slaughter us, they have our military. But yes, we do retain the right of armed militias. Unless of course, they are now called terrorist cells and extinguished as insurgencies of 'enemy combatants'.

And though our 'system' does seem completely in the bin, so far it has proven to be about the best. What could We the People establish as better? Who or what could lead us? Suggesting the American Dream seems too obvious and too ludicrous at present.

*SIGH*

Stop making me think on the weekend, tenni, please.

[bisexual Bill]

I saw on the world news that the wiki leaks report said how now Iranians are fighting with the Iraqis against our soldiers over there. Not surprising.

The news also said how the 3 hiking American college students who were imprisoned in Iran were not aimlessly lost college students who somehow went over the border to Iran.

They were picked up in Iraq first by American soldiers. They knew what they were doing and wanted to create a controversy and an international problem by intentionally getting captured in Iran.

[Long Duck Dong]

My question is about the ethics of the US and acceptance of such deceit by the US people. The US stated that they were not or could not keep track of the civilians killed in Iraq. Speculation was wide ranging. Even these documents list of killed civilians may be skewed to the lower number.

I have my theory and I can almost guess Pasa & LDD's position.(war is hell ..."that'll do it" type of simplistic statements).

Why the lies from the US government to its own people and the world?

Are the US people not outraged at being lied to by their government?

not even some?

Perhaps not. After all, I read a lot of support for justification of torture and violation of the Geneva Conventions on another site by US people long before this. So, what if the Iraqi forces do it too? We did. It must for "freedom, justice and the American way", eh?

Having written that, I expect my own government to be found out that it has violated the Geneva Conventions in Afghanistan. There has been strong attempts to keep this from the public or at least some evidence.

I simple view it as trial by media by anti american people, that have no real knowledge or experience in military matters, only websites and newspapers

never mind the fact that the the causalities of war count is also counting the death by suicide bombers against their own people, so there is no clear * this side killed this many and this side killed this many * aspect just the typical anti us, * omg the us is to blame for it all and so wrong * stance.....

but hey the anti us stance is built around leaked documents, media reposts and a anti US biased.... so it must be 100% accurate.......

I was under the impression that trials required burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt..... I guess they do it differently in canada....

[IanBorthwick]

It bloody is an all... wish u lot wud sit down an rite nice harmless lil threads bout knittin or sewin.. yas keep bringin up stuff wich has me chompin at bit as me told mumsie!!:eek:

*thinks* "Ya wanna stay outa 'ere, shortarse.. don effin look in..."


You're always welcome in my singing thread Fran! ;)

[AidanS57]

I don't think truth is told by ANY nation regarding wars, conflicts, rescue missions or aid packages.

That being said, I agree with Void.

[darkeyes]

I simple view it as trial by media by anti american people, that have no real knowledge or experience in military matters, only websites and newspapers

never mind the fact that the the causalities of war count is also counting the death by suicide bombers against their own people, so there is no clear * this side killed this many and this side killed this many * aspect just the typical anti us, * omg the us is to blame for it all and so wrong * stance.....

but hey the anti us stance is built around leaked documents, media reposts and a anti US biased.... so it must be 100% accurate.......

I was under the impression that trials required burden of proof beyond reasonable doubt..... I guess they do it differently in canada....

The media in this country as such has remarkably little anti US bias.. it does exist, but compared to the criticism of those opposed to the US and its allies it is somewhat muted.. a predominantly right wing press ensures that what we get spoon fed is not as such anti american.. in the quality press the Guardian and Independent are not anti american but they do question in spades both the Iraq and Afghanistan conflicts, whereas the Telegraph and Times are without doubt anti Taliban and Anti al Qaeda.. in the popular press the Mirror can hardly be called pro American but also condemns and is critical of anti American forces.. but for the most part the popular press is pro US, anti Taliban and Al Quaeda and with reservations pro the war against them.

Our press however is very questioning, particularly the non right wing press and broadcasters but I do not exempt that right wing press from that claim... and it is this which makes us question what the hell is going on in conflcits of which we were or are a part.

Television is a different ball game from the printed word, for news and current affairs has a legal obligation to report fairly and impartially, and this it does in the main, even the Murdoch owned Sky News. Other satellite broadcasters of course have their own rules and there own view of events, and we get beamed into our country news and current events programming from Russian, Chinese, Arabic, Indian, French, American and other international broadcasters. How they view events is different from British broadcasters, but of these, the French, Indian and Arab television channels are remarkably unbiased and certainly as critical of what most would call terror groups as they are of the US and its allies, and I have a lot of time for CNN from the US.

In the UK, we do net got bombarded with anti American News either through broadcasting or the printed press, and the internet is a take it as you find it is it not? We do however overall from what bias exists get a pretty balanced view of what is going on in Afghanistan and Iraq. We do not get hiddden from us the excesses of "our" side even if such information is santised for publlic consumption. Our media is human run and human beings do make mistakes and do have their own prejudices.. but I challenge anyone to say that our media is as such anti American. It is not, but nor is it particularly pro, and where it is pro American, not uncritically so.

Leaked documents have always been an invaluable tool of the media. They always will be. As to the accuracy of Wikileaks latest batch all I can say is that they must be relatively accurate given from whence they come in the sense that they are military documents outlining a military view of the conduct of a war. If not then what a bunch of jesters the US military is...

I will end as you ended Duckie, darling.. beyond reasonable doubt? Yes... in a trial held in a court of criminal law.. tell me pray?? What criminal court of law tries a nation? There is none and never has been. I doubt ever will be. Nuremberg and the Hague can try those responsible for war crimes, but nations are not put on trial.. we may draw certain conclusions as to the culpability of a people based on what is revealed in such a trial but we do not try nations in criminal courts.. or their militaries and other institutions.. maybe we should.. but until that day comes, all of us, pro American, or anti, pro war, or anti, or those of us who are either neutral or question everything about the conduct of nations and their representatives, both military and civilian in conflicts can only judge on what we are told in our press, by our Governments, by our nation's enemies, and those other institutions involved such as aid agencies, charities and the UN and from our own research in other areas. The burden of proof argument therefore is a red herring and has no place in this argument, and will continue to have no place in this argument until such times as entire nations are prosecuted by a criminal court...

[darkeyes]

You're always welcome in my singing thread Fran! ;)

Used to do the folk scene up till 5 or 6 years ago..shall we do a duet?? tee hee. have some triff anti war songs me knows..:bigrin:

[Hephaestion]

Void brings up a very important item. What can We the People do? It is as valid in the USA as it is anywhere that the word Democracy is included as a descriptor of the political system in place.

Items encountered

1) 'A country gets the political system it deserves'

3) 'A right not fought for is inevitably a right lost'

3) 'The rights we (supposedly) enjoy are borne of the sacrifices of our predecessors'

4) "....Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty....."

When the high tennets of democratic process are abused, civil unrest follows. When the situation runs to extremes, ultimate sacrifices follow and civil wars take hold

5) 'The first casualty of any war is the truth'.

As the truth is being so widely withheld from the voting public, has the government declared war on its own people?

When oppression and exploitation occur, any group of people may consider the ultimate sacrifice worthwhile. Have we invited that from others and should we be surprised if the claim is that these others have 'shown us the way?'

[darkeyes]

The truth of conflict.. I could and even do cry sometimes.. what is the truth of any conflict? No matter how much we dig, and how much we are informed by state, comabatants, victims and observors, media, impartial or if u prefer "impartial" organisations and partial groups and even personal experience we can never know the whole truth.. the best we can do is gain a general picture with a fair bit of specific detail of the truth... and from that we form our views and opinions.

Voidie does indeed make valuable and important points, and Heph questions as he always questions with an inquisitive mind and one which is suspicious of all.. and quite right too.. the trouble with so many is that their upbringing and their loyalty to "king and country" blinds them of so much of the wwrongs that their side perpetrate.. and our rights as human beings in what are supposed to be free societies can go to hell as long as their boys are supported without question, even when they deliberately commit the most heinous acts and are responsible through negligence and incompetence of basic errors which cost lifes. We do not understand the context we are told... I am always suspiciuous of the use of the word "context" because it generally means something is either being covered up, ignored or used as justification for something unpleasant by those who are supposed to be our political leaders and are often held up as our moral gaurdians.

People know where I stand on the conflicts of Afghanistan and Iraq, and it remains the same as my stand on war period. No matter the justification and the feeling of aggrievement, war is immoral and destructive. It solves nothing and invariably creates issues which remain to be dealt with for decades, even centuries after their end. Every war and conflict has consequences after its end and usually very many are throughly unpleasant, very often also leading to yet more conflict. Humanity learns from history ok.. sadly the powers that run the world learn lessons which enable them to scare the shite out of their peoples and by appealing to the basest of instinct are able to call on them as cannon fodder in future conflicts by creating hate and suspicious of "them" that are not "us". They even persuade whole swathes of society to foregoe their own rights in common cause aginst these "foes" and to lay down their lives in defence of their way of life.. it has nothing to do with the way of life of the great mass of any people of coourse.. it has to do with sacrifice of the many to save the balls and way of life and further the greed for power and wealth of the few who run nations or wish to run nations, who wish to impose a culture or religion on many who are not of "them". For the most part.. these powerful elites, whether they be of nation, religion or political belief are remarkably successful.. if they were not successful we would not have one tenth of the conflicts we do around the globe.

As a society of people we do get the government we deserve of that there is no doubt. Whether it be nation, religion, culture or political system, we get over us those we deserve because we allow it to be so. We moan and grumble, and we mosey happily or not so happily along and more or less allow them to do their own thing.. invariably at great cost to ourselves.. why? Not because people are cowards or lazy, and not entirely because they think there is little they can do about it.. throughout history our ancestors have challenged the status quo very successfully very often, and shall do so again.. but I do believe it is becoming much more difficult as monolithic state bureaucracies and power elites have entrenched themselves to such a degree that in the west we can tinker and slowly make things better, but we cannot make substantial change in the operation of the political system to make it more responsive to peoples wants and needs. Internationally the United States is the worst example in that two huge monolithic political organisation so dominate the political landscape that their is no room for other political parties or ideas. Any other ideas which exist are subsumed within those two huge political monsters. I am unsure of whether the US can even claim to be a democracy because of this.. it may be more proper to describe it as a "duocracy".

Arguably, other nations can be so described, my own included because of the historical domination of two political parties, but even allowing for a mess of a voting system, there are a dozen or so political parties represented in the House of Commons and outside of the "big two" they are able to command something like a third of the popular vote.

All of this talk about democracy and our political systems may be just so much waffle to many and not relevant to the question in their minds. Yet it is and deeply embedded in the reasons why governments get away with deceiving us so. Far too many of us are too reverent of government, too trusting and do not question enough.. far too many are much too loyal to "king and country" are will accept any atrocity, or disbelieve news of any atrocity perpetrated by "their boys". They will allow almost anything so long as they triumph.. and they will have nothing but contempt for the cause against which their forces of right are engaged against. It is how most of us are raised and educated. Far too many of us feel there is little we can do and allow governments to get away with it.. the political system encourages this, because for 4 or 5 years in reality democracies, being executive run when it comes to war certainly, are substantially dictatorships and the ordinary citizen is disengaged from the political process.

Those of us who fight against this way of "democracy" become frustrated and angry at what is done to us and to others, and remember done to in our name.. we become culpable... we bear our share of responsibility because in general, citizens do so little to change how and what things are done in their name.. and those of us who do, are called traitor, rebel, red, terrorist and many other epithets to descredit us...

I do NOT support my country's troops in war, I do NOT support war ever as a way to settle disputes, and if I believed it to be right, I would undermine the military and well being of my country and my people for what is right.. I may be called and have been called traitor for taking this stand.. but my beliefs are such that when I see injustice, no matter from whence it comes, I will act to correct that injustice and endeavour to do my bit to make this world a better more honest and peaceful place in which to live..

[Pasadenacpl2]

I do NOT support my country's troops in war, I do NOT support war ever as a way to settle disputes, and if I believed it to be right, I would undermine the military and well being of my country and my people for what is right.. I may be called and have been called traitor for taking this stand.. but my beliefs are such that when I see injustice, no matter from whence it comes, I will act to correct that injustice and endeavour to do my bit to make this world a better more honest and peaceful place in which to live..

Undermining the military does nothing to make the world a more peaceful place. Like it or not, you get to sit on your sweet little arse making bold statements about war because others went out and died for your freedom and safety. You reside in relative peace because the military is used effectively to keep that peace.

I don't care that you oppose the war. I know plenty of reasonable people who do. I know more unreasonable people who do, as well, but that's not the issue. Opposing the war is something reasonable people can do and not raise my ire.

But, you are naive. I'm glad you are. The world needs more people who think unicorns exist. I'm glad that you don't get that war is as much a part of the human condition as breathing. I think if you did, you being who I think you are, it would be enough to break you.

I'm glad you are who are. I'm even more glad that I, and others like me, are who I am. Because of our willingness to sacrifice, you get to keep living with your ideals. It's a shitty bargain for the folks on my end of it, but idealists are just as needed as realists.

Pasa

[Pasadenacpl2]

Tenni,

No, we are not outraged.

We are never going to be outraged by things you wish us to be.

Fuck off with your anti-American sentiments.

Have a nice day.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

But, you are naive. I'm glad you are. The world needs more people who think unicorns exist. I'm glad that you don't get that war is as much a part of the human condition as breathing. I think if you did, you being who I think you are, it would be enough to break you.

I'm glad you are who are. I'm even more glad that I, and others like me, are who I am. Because of our willingness to sacrifice, you get to keep living with your ideals. It's a shitty bargain for the folks on my end of it, but idealists are just as needed as realists.

Pasa

Im not as naive as you think I am.. it is because I am less than naive that I believe and argue as I do.. and war as much a part of the human condition as breathing? I think not.. breathing is an involuntary excercise... to war for better or worse is hardly that... and far more of us breathe than go to war...

..and you may think you make sacrifices so I can believe and fight for what I do.. it is a nonsense.. you read yet you do not learn.. it is not for me, or even you that you and your kind make sacrifices... it is a shitty bargain for folk at the end of it.. all too often they are folk, ordinary folk who want no part of a conflict and wish nothing more than to be left alone and in peace, caught up in it, and for those that fight it, it is a shitty bargain also... all for a few powerful bastards who care naught for you or me.. but their own power and wealth...

..yes realists are needed, and I am much more of a realist than you give me credit for.. but because I am a realist..I live and try as best I am able, the ideals which I hold dear..

[void()]

Tenni,

No, we are not outraged.

We are never going to be outraged by things you wish us to be.

Fuck off with your anti-American sentiments.

Have a nice day.

Pasa

Speak for yourself, alone. Thanks.

[Pasadenacpl2]

Im not as naive as you think I am.. it is because I am less than naive that I believe and argue as I do.. and war as much a part of the human condition as breathing? I think not.. breathing is an involuntary excercise... to war for better or worse is hardly that... and far more of us breathe than go to war...

..and you may think you make sacrifices so I can believe and fight for what I do.. it is a nonsense.. you read yet you do not learn.. it is not for me, or even you that you and your kind make sacrifices... it is a shitty bargain for folk at the end of it.. all too often they are folk, ordinary folk who want no part of a conflict and wish nothing more than to be left alone and in peace, caught up in it, and for those that fight it, it is a shitty bargain also... all for a few powerful bastards who care naught for you or me.. but their own power and wealth...

..yes realists are needed, and I am much more of a realist than you give me credit for.. but because I am a realist..I live and try as best I am able, the ideals which I hold dear..

History bears out my thesis, unfortunately. People will take, at the end of a weapon, what they can. A military is needed equally for defense as for offense. That will never change. Ever. War will never be eradicated as long as there are two people and limited resources.

If you don't understand that, then you are not the realist you claim to be.

And I love it that you don't consider your freedoms to be the gift of the sacrifice of your fighting men and women. Me and those like me, indeed.

Pasa

[darkeyes]

History bears out my thesis, unfortunately. People will take, at the end of a weapon, what they can. A military is needed equally for defense as for offense. That will never change. Ever. War will never be eradicated as long as there are two people and limited resources.

If you don't understand that, then you are not the realist you claim to be.

And I love it that you don't consider your freedoms to be the gift of the sacrifice of your fighting men and women. Me and those like me, indeed.

Pasa

A sad view of our future Pasa. For our resources are ever more limited and more of us to share them.. or fight over them.. pay your money take your choice..

Most of my freedoms were gained not by fighting men and owmen, at least not the military ones anyway, but ordinary people acting in defence of life and liberty, protesting against and acting to further their lot and the lot of their poeple. Not by war but by civil disobedience, striking and demonstrating to achieve reform and liberties which the rulers of the day wish to deprive them and prevent them from having. The military has historically been the tool by which such progress by ordinary people has been denied... I do not deny that warfare has played its part in shaping my country.. and by definition many of the freedoms and liberties we have resulted from historical conflicts.. but most by far have been gained not by warfare or military men and women, but by those ordinary civilian people who fought and even died in attaining those freedoms.

History..different times... yes I am grateful for historical sacrifice which has made me the person I am..I do not wish to belittle the sacrifice of those miltary men and women who made their sacrifices to gain me my freedoms.. but whenever the military men and women have done so, any improvement in the freedoms of Scottish or British people were merely a throw away bragain basement offer.. or a bogoff.. u gain me my crown says the king and I shall give you a little of what u want.. but for the most part, any increase in freedom and liberty for ordinary people was not on offer for the sacrifices made, and as often as not even that little was denied those who made the sacrificies.... it was no bogoff.. it may have been "bog off" to quote my mother, but that means something quite different, or like now, at best it may be what thoose who send them to war tell them and want them and people like you to believe.

The military exists as much not for defence but for the retention of the status quo.. ordinary civilian people fought for in their way for the freedoms and liberties I have, and died for them.. often under the heel of that military you hold so dear.. British, European and world history is full of such instances right up till relatively recently. It is not my freedoms the military exist to fight and die for, but for those of their masters and their masters paymasters.. or of course those who wish to be the political masters and become the elite..

[Hephaestion]

Channel 4 'Dispatches' program(me) this night 25 Oct 2010 2100hrs UK dealing with WikiLeaks data - grim watching.

[TaylorMade]

Tenni,

No, we are not outraged.

We are never going to be outraged by things you wish us to be.

Fuck off with your anti-American sentiments.

Have a nice day.

Pasa

Hand me a pen, cause I'm gonna co-sign. Most of ya'll bitching about American actions don't give an oven baked shit about the civilians who will get hurt due to their status as informants. You didn't care last time, and I sense that won't change.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Channel 4 'Dispatches' program(me) this night 25 Oct 2010 2100hrs UK dealing with WikiLeaks data - grim watching.

Very grim watching..:(

[darkeyes]

Hand me a pen, cause I'm gonna co-sign. Most of ya'll bitching about American actions don't give an oven baked shit about the civilians who will get hurt due to their status as informants. You didn't care last time, and I sense that won't change.

*Taylor*

..and who is ya'll that didnt care last time, Taylor?

[TaylorMade]

..and who is ya'll that didnt care last time, Taylor?

Hep and tenni. I kept pointing out that Wikileaks had no moral high ground due to their actions putting people in just as much danger. They refused to address it.
And the soldier who provided those original papers was gay. Don't think that won't be brought up when discussion on DADT is held.


*Taylor*

[Pasadenacpl2]

And now I report you. Buh bi!

Pasa

[Hephaestion]

Hep and Tenni wikileaks is the reason why soldiers fighting in the middle east keep dying.

Here's what they do in Iran and Saudi Arabia to men who are gay and bisexual.

(picture of men about to be hung)

If you need a reminder what they do to Jews just look at Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg who had their heads cut off and the entire thing was filmed. Sick bastards!


"...wikileaks is the reason why soldiers fighting in the middle east keep dying...."

No! CF soldiers are being kiilled because they are no longer seen as liberators. They are seen as indiscriminate killers of civilians of all ages.

Same old problem.

The soldiers are given an impossible task by idiot politicians egged on by idiot theoretical tacticians. The army inevitably blunders into mistake because it is not designed to function in the environment it is asked to and it snowballs from there with cyclic retribution and frustration on both sides.

The cockup is hidden by our politicians to save their own reputations. That's what WikiLeaks reveals. It does so through the logs of what our soldiers have done and surprise surprise, these soldiers in turn try to shake culpability by justifying their actions with accounts that do not stand up to scrutiny.


"...who had their heads cut off and the entire thing was filmed......."

Filming such executions is no different to what the aircraft cameras record when they destroy without the claimed surgical precision.

[void()]

"The cockup is hidden by our politicians to save their own reputations. That's what WikiLeaks reveals. It does so through the logs of what our soldiers have done and surprise surprise, these soldiers in turn try to shake culpability by justifying their actions with accounts that do not stand up to scrutiny."

Ultimately though, soldiers are nothing more than tools. Craftsmen wielding the tools are the ones to fault. Recall it's all a chain of command which builds a pyramid.

"Hep and tenni. I kept pointing out that Wikileaks had no moral high ground due to their actions putting people in just as much danger. They refused to address it. And the soldier who provided those original papers was gay. Don't think that won't be brought up when discussion on DADT is held."

I can agree Wikileaks or Cryptome, sites like them have no real moral high ground. Two wrongs never make a right. But one wrong is attempting to place light upon another. People get hurt. There is a war on, people get hurt.

I'm responding to you, Taylor, not to defend others. Your statement did hammer into another target. Easy there, gal, some of us do care. :) But there are 'facts of life' we all must face and accept. I care but lack ability to do anything aside from voicing an opinion here.

Just because someone may accept something does not imply they may like it. There are times we only have acceptance and hope for a better tomorrow. My friend elian tells me for an atheist, I'm surprisingly filled with faith. And I do try remaining so. Life gets radically bleak without it.

Well, I've rambled saying too much or not enough.

[TaylorMade]

"The cockup is hidden by our politicians to save their own reputations. That's what WikiLeaks reveals. It does so through the logs of what our soldiers have done and surprise surprise, these soldiers in turn try to shake culpability by justifying their actions with accounts that do not stand up to scrutiny."

Ultimately though, soldiers are nothing more than tools. Craftsmen wielding the tools are the ones to fault. Recall it's all a chain of command which builds a pyramid.

"Hep and tenni. I kept pointing out that Wikileaks had no moral high ground due to their actions putting people in just as much danger. They refused to address it. And the soldier who provided those original papers was gay. Don't think that won't be brought up when discussion on DADT is held."

I can agree Wikileaks or Cryptome, sites like them have no real moral high ground. Two wrongs never make a right. But one wrong is attempting to place light upon another. People get hurt. There is a war on, people get hurt.

I'm responding to you, Taylor, not to defend others. Your statement did hammer into another target. Easy there, gal, some of us do care. :) But there are 'facts of life' we all must face and accept. I care but lack ability to do anything aside from voicing an opinion here.

Just because someone may accept something does not imply they may like it. There are times we only have acceptance and hope for a better tomorrow. My friend elian tells me for an atheist, I'm surprisingly filled with faith. And I do try remaining so. Life gets radically bleak without it.

Well, I've rambled saying too much or not enough.

But at least you don't act like your opinion is the only right one out there. I've always respected you for that. You've acknowledged that there will be negative fallout on innocent people and that sometimes there is no high ground to be had. It's just a question of how you see things.

*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

Hep and tenni. I kept pointing out that Wikileaks had no moral high ground due to their actions putting people in just as much danger. They refused to address it.
And the soldier who provided those original papers was gay. Don't think that won't be brought up when discussion on DADT is held.


*Taylor*

Heph and Tenni care ok Taylor..they care for different reasons from you but they care ok.. Wikileaks whistleblowing is little diffferent from the Washington Post exposing a corrupt President.. when whistleblowing there is always the possibility of consequences for others... and if there are, to innocent and/or guilty... do we not leak and allow a great wrong to continue, or a lie to go unanswered? Heph and Tenni care ok.. they just care from a different perspective from you.. which you seem to acknowledge in your last post..

If there are ramifications for gays in the fact that the guy who leaked the original documents was gay, then what a very stupid, immature and vindictive society you live in.. what if he was str8? Or a woman, or Buddhist, Latino or black, or Hindu, or of chinese descent or a naturalised citizen.. or horror of horrors.. Islamic? A woman, gay, black, Islamic naturalised citizen would be in real shite I think.. (sorry a little light relief in an otherwise gloomy and serious thread)

[Hephaestion]

".........Ultimately though, soldiers are nothing more than tools. Craftsmen wielding the tools are the ones to fault. Recall it's all a chain of command which builds a pyramid......"

"........I can agree Wikileaks or Cryptome, sites like them have no real moral high ground. Two wrongs never make a right. But one wrong is attempting to place light upon another. People get hurt. There is a war on, people get hurt......"


The intended neutrality is appreciated.

Agreed that the soldiers are tools. Tools need to be looked after and used in appropriate circumstances; bad workmen always blame their tools and the gullible believe them.

Disagree that WikiLeaks has done any wrong. Investment in truth may be inconvenient to some but never a wrong. Logs give analysis of the past not the current or the future. Hopefully the latter two may be made more sensible by analysis, although, it doesn't look that way currently as people are continuing to get hurt.
.

[darkeyes]

..and I very much doubt the British are any better.. this is pertinent I think...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/oct/25/uk-military-interrogation-manuals

[darkeyes]

The intended neutrality is appreciated.

Agreed that the soldiers are tools. Tools need to be looked after and used in appropriate circumstances; bad workmen always blame their tools and the gullible believe them.



Soldiers are tools ok Heph, and bad workmen do blame them.. however soldiers are tools with a difference.. they have brains in their head and have some element of free thought, or should have, however restrained or otherwise by "rules of engagement", and know, should know, when they see something wrong.. being human of course they make mistakes, and being human they often do not adhere to rules or the orders of superiors.. in the field they are often loose cannons and ofetn lack the moral courage to intervene when they see a wrong being perpetrated ..as Wikileaks last week, and Channel4 demonstrated so well last night, warfare is a very imprecise instrument, and soldiers a very inefficient tool... whether they be generals or squaddie..

It is not good enough to say that soldiers were following orders, as Nuremburg made quite clear over half a cetury ago, and the Hague is in its own way attempting to do now... and it is simply not good enough for people to say Wikileaks were wrong no matter their view of what has happened in Iraq. Appalling wrongs are appalling wrongs, incompetence and negligence remain incompetence and negligence, and torture and murder are still torture and murder.. the Iraqi government, police, military and security apparatus have equally as many questions to answer as does those of the US.. both stand in the dock.. there is something rotten in the state of Denmark indeed... but too many people just want the mess to be brushed under the carpet and the stink extracted by the air conditioning.. not good enough.. and any who say otherwise is culpable of defending unjustifiable slaughter and torture of men women and children on a grand scale which should never have been...

..when the militaries of Nazi germany, Imperial Japan or the old Soviet Union acted in such a way as the coalition forces (for while the US was by far the largest provider of forces post war, no military in the coalition can escape its responsibility) in Iraq, and Iraqi security services and military, there was quite rightly outrage and condemnation around the world.. there should be an equal amount of ourage expressed at these events.. merely because they are "our boys" is no excuse to defend the indefensible...

[Hephaestion]

Darkeyes - agreed. I cannot fault your argument.

Soldiers are supposed to think but they fail and then they lie. Part of training is to not think. "...Their's not to reason why. Their's but to do and die...."

"...warfare is a very imprecise instrument, and soldiers a very inefficient tool... whether they be generals or squaddie..."

In these arenas yes. It's like brain surgery using a sledge hammer. However, I would alot greater responsibility to the master than the dog.

.

[TaylorMade]

Heph and Tenni care ok Taylor..they care for different reasons from you but they care ok.. Wikileaks whistleblowing is little diffferent from the Washington Post exposing a corrupt President.. when whistleblowing there is always the possibility of consequences for others... and if there are, to innocent and/or guilty... do we not leak and allow a great wrong to continue, or a lie to go unanswered? Heph and Tenni care ok.. they just care from a different perspective from you.. which you seem to acknowledge in your last post..

If there are ramifications for gays in the fact that the guy who leaked the original documents was gay, then what a very stupid, immature and vindictive society you live in.. what if he was str8? Or a woman, or Buddhist, Latino or black, or Hindu, or of chinese descent or a naturalised citizen.. or horror of horrors.. Islamic? A woman, gay, black, Islamic naturalised citizen would be in real shite I think.. (sorry a little light relief in an otherwise gloomy and serious thread)

To me if they are going to hold the moral high ground...which is what they're supposing to to do... they should be constant. Look at the big picture and all of that. I don't do nuance, because it turns into bullshit on so many levels. Hep STILL won't admit to any wrongdoing by wikileaks.


Disagree that WikiLeaks has done any wrong. Investment in truth may be inconvenient to some but never a wrong. Logs give analysis of the past not the current or the future. Hopefully the latter two may be made more sensible by analysis, although, it doesn't look that way currently as people are continuing to get hurt.

Tenni's just pussed out of the argument period. So I call bullshit and hypocritical on them both. They're merely looking for a happydance over the US on moral superiority by ignoring the fallout. Fuck them with a bayonet as far as I'm concerned. Their concern for the conflict only goes as far as they can use it against America and her interests.

As to your second paragraph. . .It's not the whole of society, it's those that want to keep DADT for unwholesome reasons. So far he hasn't been used in a formal argument to keep DADT...yet. So relax, and go read Das Kaptial.


*Taylor*

[darkeyes]

To me if they are going to hold the moral high ground...which is what they're supposing to to do... they should be constant. Look at the big picture and all of that. I don't do nuance, because it turns into bullshit on so many levels. Hep STILL won't admit to any wrongdoing by wikileaks.



Tenni's just pussed out of the argument period. So I call bullshit and hypocritical on them both. They're merely looking for a happydance over the US on moral superiority by ignoring the fallout. Fuck them with a bayonet as far as I'm concerned. Their concern for the conflict only goes as far as they can use it against America and her interests.

As to your second paragraph. . .It's not the whole of society, it's those that want to keep DADT for unwholesome reasons. So far he hasn't been used in a formal argument to keep DADT...yet. So relax, and go read Das Kaptial.


*Taylor*

As it happens I have read and am an admirer of Das Kapital, and of the Communist Manifesto and much of both Marx and Engels writings.. and no doubt shall read them again.. :)

I still think your concern over the sexuality of the original wikileaker is misplaced.. some may wish to use it but that isnt what will stop the removal of DADT.. it may be used in some quarters by those who wish to keep it, but I doubt it has a big place in Obama or anyone elses thinking when they consider whether to keep or abolish it..

The one thing you underestimate both Heph and tenni about is the fact that they do look at the bigger picture.. I dont agree with either 100% of the time but sufficiently to see and be pretty sure they dont say what they say out of any sense of anti Americanism and arent being hypocritical in any way.. they are certainly anti American policy on many issues, and anti American government, but not anti American.. thats a common error which many make.. I am anti American in precisely the same sense as they... I am equally anti British for that matter in that very same sense.. even when it was a Government of whose party I was long a member... neither means I am anti American or British in the proper sense of the expression..

Both Tenni and Hephs concern is much much more than the wars of Afghanistan and Iran being a club to batter your country over the head with..

You can actually turn a very unpleasant phrase on occasion when there is no need.. it harms your argument for a start and makes you look somewhat devoid of intellect and I dont believe that is true of you.. I suggest you dont bother in future if you wish to be listened to by other than those who would already have been in agreement with you.. it is an agressive stance which shows you, or at the very least, makes you appear already to be entrenched on the defensive and on very shaky ground.. because there are those critical of what your government does and your military in your name does not necessarily make them hypocrites or bullshitters.. and it certainly does not necessarily make them anti American in all things... because you disagree with them does not necessarily make them wrong...

and I dont think Wikileaks was wrong either just to clear that up...

[darkeyes]

Told you.. our lot do stupid bastard things too..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/26/afghanistan-civilians-ministry-defence-wikileaks

[darkeyes]

However, I would alot greater responsibility to the master than the dog.

.

Aye Heph..me too...:)